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I have a good friend, who is himself German, with a full-time faculty position at a top U.S. university in CS. Last summer he taught in Germany as part of an exchange program. He himself came back basically blown away by the different level of preparation and maturity of the German students.

My take is that German universities actually maintain legitimate entrance standards. All college costs are paid by the government, there isn't a free-market race to the bottom, and the only people accepted are high-quality and expected to actually take responsibility and succeed at the work. Vocational programs exist for other types of jobs. Different schools are attended after the age of 10 based on whether someone is headed for college or not (contrast with the U.S. where "tracking" is anathema in education since about 25 years ago).

http://www.history.didaktik.mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de/meg/weidiga1.html

In addition, I must point out that German math educators, even K-6 equivalent, are highly prepared (like maybe 8 years of training), respected, well-compensated, and tenured by the government. This is in contrast to math in the U.S. which is taught from K-6 by non-experts who are actually the least capable of math, least knowledgeable, poorly trained, have the highest levels of math anxiety (which has been shown to rub off on students), little support, and high turnover in a typical American meat-grinder context. As a community-college math teacher, I suspect that this rotten foundation in math from K-6 is the single biggest problem with American education.

In Germany: http://www.history.didaktik.mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de/meg/matheda4.html
In the U.S.: http://www.madmath.com/2016/02/hembree-on-math-anxiety.html

I have a good friend, who is himself German, with a full-time faculty position at a top U.S. university in CS. Last summer he taught in Germany as part of an exchange program. He himself came back basically blown away by the different level of preparation and maturity of the German students.

My take is that German universities actually maintain legitimate entrance standards. All college costs are paid by the government, there isn't a free-market race to the bottom, and the only people accepted are high-quality and expected to actually take responsibility and succeed at the work. Vocational programs exist for other types of jobs. Different schools are attended after the age of 10 based on whether someone is headed for college or not (contrast with the U.S. where "tracking" is anathema in education since about 25 years ago).

http://www.history.didaktik.mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de/meg/weidiga1.html

In addition, I must point out that German math educators, even K-6 equivalent, are highly prepared (like maybe 8 years of training), respected, well-compensated, and tenured by the government. This is in contrast to math in the U.S. which is taught from K-6 by non-experts who are actually the least capable of math, least knowledgeable, poorly trained, have the highest levels of math anxiety (which has been shown to rub off on students), little support, and high turnover in a typical American meat-grinder context. As a community-college math teacher, I suspect that this rotten foundation in math from K-6 is the single biggest problem with American education.

In Germany: http://www.history.didaktik.mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de/meg/matheda4.html
In the U.S.: http://www.madmath.com/2016/02/hembree-on-math-anxiety.html

The official psychological counterpart to "introversion" is "extraversion" (with an "a") because both are derived from the Latin "intro" and "extra", respectively. ;-)

If you're interested in a psychological perspective on media choice and personality, there is a paper available here:
http://www.abo.psychologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/virtualcollaboration/publications.php?action=view&id=22

Disclaimer: I am one of the authors. ;-)

For a site who claims to be against FUD so much, it's sad to see the basic myth of Japans high suicide rates hasn't been checked against actual facts. Also it's sad to see users commenting adding yet more FUD to the equation (like suicides being very common among japanese girls, not true). Check the facts please.

Another one is UWE-1 from the University of Wuerzburg.

UWE-1 is running cLinux and is currently in good health - transmitting a beacon every 60 seconds on 437.505 MHz.

It's callsign is DP0UWE.

http://www7.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/cubesat/

this statistic shows that marijuana up to 2ng/ml decreases you chance to cause an accident. available only in german, so use the fish or just look at the graphes "Relatives Verursacherrisiko" (i know you were not serious about your numbers but i just stumbled upon that before reading slashdot)

>There aren't enough dungeons or cool things to do besides run around and kill stuff and hope for loot.

All MUD-based games are like this. Essentially you are putting yourself in a Skinner box.

Repetition and the lack of "cool loot" is a feature not a bug. With so many players, there will never be rare loot you can get, and if there is someone who has been playing 23 hours a day is hoarding it. Running around and killing stuff is basically the design.

A lot of people complain about these things without realizing this is why these games are so addictive. There are simply more fun online games that dont demand all your time. The skinner-box is profitable for now, but even the implementations are weak. I played SWG for about two months and its like a generic space game with a few token star wars themes applied. The incentive is poor. Worse, they made the best character, the jedi, next to impossible to score. Compare that to all the Jedi fun you can have with Jedi Academy.

I like games that are challenging, take me away, let me be creative, let me horse around, etc. I have real life leveling to do and MUD-playing back in college did affect my grades and social life (or what was left of it). I'm really curious to see if the skinner-box profit model is going to last.

OOo is incredible, considering how young the project is. Currently, I consider it to be about as good as MS Office 97.

Stop whining about the UI and MS compatibility; they will both improve.

My main concern is BLOAT. OOo is a memory hog, and its integrated PDF export is *extremely* inefficient. Don't get me wrong, PDF export is a killer feature, but I usually use CUPS-PDF on Linux or PDFCreator on Windows. Both produce more compact files.

Good work OOo team! You're well on your way to producing a VERY strong product!

Maybe because they're all really just electronic skinner boxes .

CUPS has an option for a virtual PDF printer in Linux, called CUPS-PDF.
I think it's included in RedHat 9.

...mention of the BOFH!!!

Another relevant fave found here.

The whole shebang.

I don't think you're talking about the Skinner box, which is a device used in the psychology of learning, but rather the Chinese room, which is John Searle's take on AI and the Turing test.

The Wayback Machine thing sucks, as do so many other Scientology actions against the net, but frankly I'm a little more concerned about how Scientology's actions affect people's rights out in the non-virtual world.

This is an organization that has framed critics, including journalist Paulette Cooper, who was indicted for sending bomb threats which, in reality, Scientology had sent to themselves. Scientology also attempted to frame Clearwater mayor Gabriel Cazares (for hit-and-run), U.S. District Judge Ben Krentzman (for solicitation and drug use), attorney Michael Flynn (for cashing a forged check), BBS operator Tom Klemesrud (for battery), attorney Graham Berry (for child molestation and battery), author Russell Miller (for murder), and former Scientologists Martin Hunt (for Internet posts; his report of the police officer's visit didn't mention what was being alleged about the posts) and Gene Allard (for grand theft - Allard won a 1974 malicious prosecution suit against Scientology).
Numerous instances of making false reports to police have been reported.

This is an organization that has seen 11 top-ranking executives go to jail in the U.S. for infiltrating government offices to steal and plant documents. In the similar Canadian trial, three Scientology executives and the Toronto church organization itself were found guilty of similar crimes.

The FBI raids in the late 70s turned up evidence of the frame-ups of Cooper and Cazares, along with evidence that Scientology had infiltrated numerous other government offices, such as the California Attorney General's office, as well as newspapers like the Clearwater Sun, law offices like Sidley & Austin, and other organizations, such as the Clark County Mental Health Agency. A Scientologist on the San Diego police force was fired for passing police information to Scientology.

A typical response from Scientology spokepeople is "that was years ago." (We never did that, and besides, we don't do it anymore.)

Well, there were five frame-up attempts that I can count in the past 3-4 years (Keith Henson, successfully framed and now a fugitive in Canada; Mark Bunker, acquitted; Bob Minton, acquitted twice but now apparently extorted into testifying for Scientology; Jesse Prince, hung jury).

There are also disturbing signs that Scientology is continuing to infiltrate government offices and businesses. A motion was filed just a couple of weeks ago alleging religious discrimination in the case of a woman who was fired from the Greenwich Housing Authority after Scientology management systems were introduced and employees were required to attend Scientology courses, paid for with thousands of dollars in public money, and the EEOC recently took action in a Texas case in which employees at a dental office were fired after refusing to attend Scientology classes. The Sacramento News & Review did a story not long ago about a publishing house that uses Scientology management techniques, run by Scientologists Dennis McKenna (who, as a Scientology spokesman, defended what Scientology did to Paulette Cooper) and Don Pearson (who gave extensive Scientology training to Allstate employees until management finally stopped it); the company, eRepublic, publishes a magazine on the use of technology in government (and another on the use of technology in education) and consults to governments on technology issues. The magazine includes ads for business training - never mentioning that it teaches Scientology principles - offered by people like Arte Maren - long-time Scientologist, co-conspirator in the 70s government infiltration case, and trainer in the Greenwich Housing Authority case.

I'm concerned that people confronted by Scientology training in the workplace don't know their rights. I hope the EEOC will vigorously defend people who are being illegally subjected to Scientology training at work - and I hope journalists will keep a closer eye on Scientology's continuing infiltration in government and business.

Kristi
Scientology Lies

I believe the only reason they were awarded "religious" tax-exempt status with the IRS is because of a denial-of-service attack against the IRS, using individually-filed spurious tax claims as weapons.

Overview: $cn vs. IRS

One analysis is particularly revealing.

As I understand the story outlined in the pages I linked to above, "individual $cientologists" (that is, cult members, under directions from superior officers) filed thousands of lawsuits (that is, individual lawsuits, not a class action suit) against the IRS. The cost to the taxpayer of defeating each of these suits, one by one, would have been prohibitive. As a result, the IRS granted the cult tax-exempt status in a deal whose details are, shall we say, ethically-suspect.

The tactic of using a DDoS-by-lawyer is straight out of cult doctrine: "The purpose of a lawsuit is to harass, not to win".

I believe the only reason they were awarded "religious" tax-exempt status with the IRS is because of a denial-of-service attack against the IRS, using individually-filed spurious tax claims as weapons.

Overview: $cn vs. IRS

One analysis is particularly revealing.

As I understand the story outlined in the pages I linked to above, "individual $cientologists" (that is, cult members, under directions from superior officers) filed thousands of lawsuits (that is, individual lawsuits, not a class action suit) against the IRS. The cost to the taxpayer of defeating each of these suits, one by one, would have been prohibitive. As a result, the IRS granted the cult tax-exempt status in a deal whose details are, shall we say, ethically-suspect.

The tactic of using a DDoS-by-lawyer is straight out of cult doctrine: "The purpose of a lawsuit is to harass, not to win".

Why not read the Grundgesetz, the constitution of Germany?

Because I don't read German. But there is a translation here.

The section about free speech says:
(1) Everyone has the right to freely express and disseminate his opinion in speech, writing, and pictures and to freely inform himself from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films are guaranteed. There will be no censorship.
(2) These rights are subject to limitations in the provisions of general statutes, in statutory provisions for the protection of the youth, and in the right to personal honor.
(3) Art and science, research and teaching are free. The freedom of teaching does not release from allegiance to the constitution.

Read Article 5 Section 2 here. Rather pulls the "free" out of "free speech" doesn't it?

C) Red Flag is under the control of the China Academy of Sciences, headed by Jiang Mianheng, the son of the president Jiang Zemin
I don't consider that as an argument against Red Flag Linux, but others may take a different view.

C) Red Flag is under the control of the China Academy of Sciences, headed by Jiang Mianheng, the son of the president Jiang Zemin
I don't consider that as an argument against Red Flag Linux, but others may take a different view.

And too bad freedom of speech isn't protected in Germany. I'll take our problems over there's any day of the week.

No, you're way wrong:

Article 5 [Freedom of Expression]

(1) Everyone has the right to freely express and disseminate his opinion in speech, writing, and pictures and to freely inform himself from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films are guaranteed. There will be no censorship.

(2) These rights are subject to limitations in the provisions of general statutes, in statutory provisions for the protection of the youth, and in the right to personal honor.

(3) Art and science, research and teaching are free. The freedom of teaching does not release from allegiance to the constitution.

By the way, there is a statutory prohibition of any kind of typically Nazi symbolism, which is often attacked on the strength of this clearcut constitutional.

I agree but would comment further. From what I can tell, the West puts up with this under mild protest rather than raising a big stink because the they aren't eager to weaken the position of its secular allies there, particularly the military which has alternated control over Turkey with democracy and has pressured the society to remain secular.

The last thing the West wants is for Turkey to re-assert itself as the center of a new Islamic Empire built on the historical remnants of the Ottoman Empire, *the* great civilization over the last millenium in the middle east, with control over various areas as diverse as Bosnia, Chechnya, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc. A resurgent Ottoman or fundamentalist Islamic civilization would probably yield a bloodier result in the end, judging by past history, but ascertaining the probable future is notoriously difficult, and in any case I'd agree that the ends doesn't justify the means.

Very well said, and I agree with your points. Switzerland, the country with my favourite constitution, expands upon this concept further by giving citizens the right (through collection of a certain number of signatures) to have a binding referendum on laws -- and to even create new ones in the same way.

It's a very intriguing concept. There are individual states in Germany and the US and other countries with similar mechanisms but in Switzerland the federal laws and constitution are included.

Lost of interesting info about direct democracy concepts can be found on the website of the US organization Direct Democracy League.

I essentially agree with you. As a Swede and European, I would not want Hague to trample all over my rights either. The UK lacks a constitution but many of the other European countries have constitutions that while different from the US, are fully comparable in democratic strength. These constitutions surpass the US constitution in some regards, while in other regards the US constitution surpasses them.

The claim that the EU leadership answers to no one is a common misconception, though. While improvements can certainly be made, the EU consists of several internally balancing institutions. Proposals are made by the European Commision, which (like national cabinet members) are appointed as opposed to elected -- in this case by the Council (which consists of the directly elected national leaders) and then approved by the directly elected European Parliament. Proposals made by the commision must be approved by the Council and in many cases also the European Parliament. So EU leaders answer to both the elected MEPs as well as the elected member state governments. It may be perceived as an odd system but works better than most people think, and is reasonable given the history of the EU's development.

Just yesterday, the FBI raided Scientologist co-founder of Earthlink Reed E. Slatkin over his role in the biggest Ponzi scam of all time, detailed at the http://slatkinfraud.com site.

Not to mention their vicious actions against free speech on the Internet.

That's not to mention the somewhat questionable affidavit of former Scientology agent Robert J. Cipriano. Now according to Earthlink they stood up for privacy against the FBI. By the rule of thumb that anything a Scientologist says is the complete opposite of the truth, they just did that becuase they prefer to do all the spying themselves.

From the Cipriano affidavit:

37. On or about March 26th 1998, Mr. Moxon and I talked about my re-entering the work force. Mr. Moxon suggested Earthlink Network, Inc., in Pasadena. Earthlink Network is a Church Of Scientology company. Mr. Moxon contacted Mr. Sky Dayton, Chairman of Earthlink, who referred him to Mr. George Williams, Director of Dial-Up Sales. An interview was arranged, and I was hired March 27th 1998, even though they were not hiring at that time. Earthlink created a new sales management position for a girl named Jennifer so they could move her up creating an opening for me in the sales department. On March 28th 1998, I sent an email to Mr. Moxon thanking him for the introduction (See Exhibit 11 & 12).While at Earthlink Network in Pasadena, California, I had access to the Internet Service Provider's internal operations.

38. I was befriended the first day of my employment at Earthlink by a Mr. Michael Hamra, another sales associate. I quickly started a friendship with Mr. Hamra and spent countless hours talking about various things including how Earthlink started with investments, by Kirstie Alley, Tom Cruise, John Travolta and other wealthy Scientologists, into Sky Dayton's idea of an internet service provider. Mr. Hamra told me how Sky Dayton had a coffee shop before starting Earthlink and that he, because of being a Scientologist and his friendships with celebrity Scientologists, he was able to build a multi-million dollar company that could, "Watch over the entire internet from within the internet."

39. Additionally, Mr. Hamra told me he was one of the founding group of Scientologist who ran Earthlink out of a Glendale one room office where he made sales calls from a bathroom in the office. Mr. Hamra said, "The Church of Scientology now had a database of information on every subscriber which included names, credit card info., credit reports, telephone info., computer info., who had referred them to Earthlink and who were their previous ISP providers." Mr. Hamra told me about the "other Earthlink building" which was next door on New York Avenue in Pasadena. Mr. Hamra told me that the other building was high security and is where Earthlink and the Church of Scientology did all the monitoring of the internet. Mr. Hamra was always very interested in my testimony in Berry v. Cipriano. It became clear to me that he was reporting what I was saying to other in Scientology.

40. I received many incoming sales calls while at Earthlink from individuals who would ask, "Are you a bunch of Scientologists?" We were trained to never admit that we were involved with the Church Of Scientology.

What if the FBI/BATF got an annonymous tip that your cult, the CoS had automatic weapons, wouldn't that be interesting?

There's already an on-the-record non-anonymous declaration sworn under penalty of perjury to that effect. The Declaration of Andre Tabayoyon, a Vietnam veteran and their former security chief at Gold Base, attests to the literal armory they have there, including guns and explosives. The Feds aren't interested. This is the same base that claims to be "terrorized" by a 57 year old engineer with a picket sign 300 yards away, across a barbed-wire fence with motion detectors and armed guards. They also run and scurry whenever anyone else shows up with a picket sign, even little old ladies, other computer nerds, and his wife Arel.

Incidentally any BATF involvement in a raid on Scientology would be disastrous. Not because the Scientologists would be likely to display armed resistance (though it's possible as they're getting crazier lately), but because the BATF are poorly-trained idiot goons who would screw up the raid so badly that Scientology's army of lawyers would eat them for breakfast.

...religion remains at equal footing with politics, thus, religous goals are achieved through political acts and setting of social policy.

That is not to say that religion and politics don't get mixed! They should not, and the Indian consititution protects religious freedom and separates religion from state affairs.

I currently picket Scientology once a month (first Saturday of every month); I picketed a little more often when I started out.

I make every effort to be courteous, cheery, and non-confrontational when I picket. I greet the Scientologists I know, especially the handlers who come out to try to distract or provoke me, with a friendly "Hi! Nice to see you!" but I don't try to discuss confidential Scientology doctrine - or indeed, anything - with Scientologists who don't want to talk to me. I'm there to educate the public and to encourage people to contact public officials about Scientology's continuing pattern of illegal acts.

Although I have never had any legal hassles over my web site - no claims of copyright infringement, despite my tiny bits of fair-use quoting, and no trademark or libel threats - I have been followed after pickets (both by car and on foot), been verbally provoked (including being slandered with accusations of hate crimes and statutory rape and of being on "psych drugs", and being called a bitch and told "you can suck my dick") (... and frankly, the obscenities don't bother me - I just think it's strange behavior for representatives of a church to display to the public), and had regular revenge pickets at my home, with Scientology reps videotaping anyone who came and went from my apartment building. (My home address has never been publicly available, not in the phone book, not on the web.) Scientology reps have distributed libellous fliers to my neighbors. As part of the biggest denial-of-service attack in net history, they forged disgusting racist a.r.s. posts in my name (which, of course, they did to dozens of other critics as well). Those posts have been resurrected at google.

Recently, three different Scientologists have implied that I'm next to be charged the way Keith was. The first was in e-mail.

The second was at a picket; as I was leaving, I playfully called out to my handler, Craig, "Will I see you later?" (asking if he was planning to come revenge-picket me, as is his wont). He asked, "Is that a threat?" I said, "How could asking if I'll see you later possibly be a threat?" He said "It sounded like a threat to me."

(After what Scientology did to Gerry Armstrong, I carry a visible tape recorder with me at all pickets. Some day I might get a helmet cam, but for now at least I have audio of these types of exchanges.)

The third was in a recent post to a.r.s., which you can find by searching "kristi slatkin thetans outfit" on Google. In part, it says,

"We all know that Kristi is one of your criminal gang and very active in
committing hate crimes like you. Her postings and her website are loaded with
hatred against the Scientologists. Now that you are passing out her hate
propaganda, look likes she'll be the next one to face 422.6."

I have a page at my web site explaining that I don't hate anyone; Scientology disagrees.
I believe that informing people about Scientology's dark side - and criminal acts - is education, not bigotry; Scientology disagrees.
I think people should have access to all the information, so they can come to their own understanding of an issue (which is why I link to Scientology's own site from Scientology Lies); Scientology disagrees.
I consider peaceful public protest to be constitutionally protected free speech; Scientology disagrees.

I believe everyone has the right to express their opinion.

Scientology disagrees.

Kristi Wachter
Scientology Lies

In Germany it is considered, that the ideology of Scientologie contradicts the constitutional law. A (german) paper on that topic can be read here.

det er ikke bare Sverige ... Operation Clambake in the Netherlands has suffered similar legal attack, and Scientology gets tax-free status in the US. Only Germany seems to take the problem seriously.

PS. Anyone know why all those Hollywood "stars" are suckered in?

Scientoloy is not "illegal" in Germany and being a member of the cult does not make you an underground dissident.

But unlike the US, where it has been granted the status of a "religion" (and it is believed that this was done to get tax-exempt status), it is considered an unethical business here that is designed to leech money from its members.

If you ever read Scieno material, you will note that they will point out again and again that they have been granted this status of a religion in the US and try to use this as an external proof of trust into their practices.

It is true, though, that you will not be hired as a German government official if you are a member of Scientology. Since most German schools are funded by the state, this includes teachers.

The German view on Scientology has the organization running scared and spewing hatred towards the German government, often comparing today's treatment of Scientologists with the way Nazi Germany treated the jews. Internal documents reveal that this is done because they know that this is an easy button to press.

Strangely enough, the US government often just copies & pastes Scientologists' allegations against Germany in their yearly human rights report.

Look at some official reactions about these allegations.

The Scientology in Germany FAQ is an interesting read, too, as it covers many of the standard allegations used by the cult.

------------------

Scientoloy is not "illegal" in Germany and being a member of the cult does not make you an underground dissident.

But unlike the US, where it has been granted the status of a "religion" (and it is believed that this was done to get tax-exempt status), it is considered an unethical business here that is designed to leech money from its members.

If you ever read Scieno material, you will note that they will point out again and again that they have been granted this status of a religion in the US and try to use this as an external proof of trust into their practices.

It is true, though, that you will not be hired as a German government official if you are a member of Scientology. Since most German schools are funded by the state, this includes teachers.

The German view on Scientology has the organization running scared and spewing hatred towards the German government, often comparing today's treatment of Scientologists with the way Nazi Germany treated the jews. Internal documents reveal that this is done because they know that this is an easy button to press.

Strangely enough, the US government often just copies & pastes Scientologists' allegations against Germany in their yearly human rights report.

Look at some official reactions about these allegations.

The Scientology in Germany FAQ is an interesting read, too, as it covers many of the standard allegations used by the cult.

------------------

Scientoloy is not "illegal" in Germany and being a member of the cult does not make you an underground dissident.

But unlike the US, where it has been granted the status of a "religion" (and it is believed that this was done to get tax-exempt status), it is considered an unethical business here that is designed to leech money from its members.

If you ever read Scieno material, you will note that they will point out again and again that they have been granted this status of a religion in the US and try to use this as an external proof of trust into their practices.

It is true, though, that you will not be hired as a German government official if you are a member of Scientology. Since most German schools are funded by the state, this includes teachers.

The German view on Scientology has the organization running scared and spewing hatred towards the German government, often comparing today's treatment of Scientologists with the way Nazi Germany treated the jews. Internal documents reveal that this is done because they know that this is an easy button to press.

Strangely enough, the US government often just copies & pastes Scientologists' allegations against Germany in their yearly human rights report.

Look at some official reactions about these allegations.

The Scientology in Germany FAQ is an interesting read, too, as it covers many of the standard allegations used by the cult.

------------------

Scientoloy is not "illegal" in Germany and being a member of the cult does not make you an underground dissident.

But unlike the US, where it has been granted the status of a "religion" (and it is believed that this was done to get tax-exempt status), it is considered an unethical business here that is designed to leech money from its members.

If you ever read Scieno material, you will note that they will point out again and again that they have been granted this status of a religion in the US and try to use this as an external proof of trust into their practices.

It is true, though, that you will not be hired as a German government official if you are a member of Scientology. Since most German schools are funded by the state, this includes teachers.

The German view on Scientology has the organization running scared and spewing hatred towards the German government, often comparing today's treatment of Scientologists with the way Nazi Germany treated the jews. Internal documents reveal that this is done because they know that this is an easy button to press.

Strangely enough, the US government often just copies & pastes Scientologists' allegations against Germany in their yearly human rights report.

Look at some official reactions about these allegations.

The Scientology in Germany FAQ is an interesting read, too, as it covers many of the standard allegations used by the cult.

------------------

I made no such claim of perfection - you read that into my post.

My apologies then.

I agree with you to some extent that the US constitution has probably influenced other constitutions. But the US constitution in turn was clearly inspired by other constitutions as well. Many good constitutions are significantly older. While not all of them (and associated laws) included what we today consider basic rights from the start, they laid the groundwork. And modern democracy is really quite young, in any nation. For example, many modern nations did not have universal suffrage until well into the 20th century. (1921 in Sweden and 1947 in the US.)

The Swedish constitutions or "grundlagar" (they are actually four) date back to the 14th century, and many basic principles of democracy have been part of those constitutions for hundreds of years. Two examples are the freedom of press (prohibition of censorship, etc) and offentlighetsprincipen that were both made part of the constitutions of Sweden in 1766, ie 22 years before the US constitution was drafted. The offentlighetsprincip deserves special attention, since it probably has nothing quite comparable in other constitutions except the Finnish. It guarantees access to most documents and communication at courts, govermental agencies and institutions.

That principle was reason for a dispute with the US Congress a few years ago (acting on behalf of lobby groups with no real national interest in the issue) when Swedish authorities published the Bible of Scientology and made copies available to anyone in the world. It all began after a citizen began sending the Bible to parliament, courts and other institutions. Letters of protest sent by a US congressman and a US commerce agency spokesman also became public, much to their surprise and dismay. All these texts automatically became public according to the constitution, there was no way around it. The principle has been the cause of many politicians' fall, since the media routinely browse new documents and find out things they otherwise would not have.

For more info about the Swedish constitution:
ICL - Swedish Constitution
The Finnish-Swedish Offentlighetsprincipen (s.c.nordic FAQ-related texts)

For more (but partly outdated) information about the very fascinating Scientology case in Sweden, these sites are recommended:

Failed US pressure on Sweden
Zenon vs CoS - the A.R.S. Posts
Operation Clamblake: Zenon Panoussis vs. Cult of Scientology

Moving on to the federal constitution of Switzerland, it is admittedly significantly younger (from 1848, although its democratic traditions are quite old and direct democracy has been an integral part of the country's history for some time. In my opinion, the Swiss constitution is the best overall, despite that the democracy comes with a price: slow decision making.

If anyone wants more info about the Swiss constitution, I whole-heartedly recommend the book "The Referendum - Direct Democracy in Switzerland" by US political scientist, professor Kris Kobach. The following URL can also be useful:

Global Ideas Bank - Exporting the Swiss constitution
ICL - Swiss Constitution

I made no such claim of perfection - you read that into my post.

My apologies then.

I agree with you to some extent that the US constitution has probably influenced other constitutions. But the US constitution in turn was clearly inspired by other constitutions as well. Many good constitutions are significantly older. While not all of them (and associated laws) included what we today consider basic rights from the start, they laid the groundwork. And modern democracy is really quite young, in any nation. For example, many modern nations did not have universal suffrage until well into the 20th century. (1921 in Sweden and 1947 in the US.)

The Swedish constitutions or "grundlagar" (they are actually four) date back to the 14th century, and many basic principles of democracy have been part of those constitutions for hundreds of years. Two examples are the freedom of press (prohibition of censorship, etc) and offentlighetsprincipen that were both made part of the constitutions of Sweden in 1766, ie 22 years before the US constitution was drafted. The offentlighetsprincip deserves special attention, since it probably has nothing quite comparable in other constitutions except the Finnish. It guarantees access to most documents and communication at courts, govermental agencies and institutions.

That principle was reason for a dispute with the US Congress a few years ago (acting on behalf of lobby groups with no real national interest in the issue) when Swedish authorities published the Bible of Scientology and made copies available to anyone in the world. It all began after a citizen began sending the Bible to parliament, courts and other institutions. Letters of protest sent by a US congressman and a US commerce agency spokesman also became public, much to their surprise and dismay. All these texts automatically became public according to the constitution, there was no way around it. The principle has been the cause of many politicians' fall, since the media routinely browse new documents and find out things they otherwise would not have.

For more info about the Swedish constitution:
ICL - Swedish Constitution
The Finnish-Swedish Offentlighetsprincipen (s.c.nordic FAQ-related texts)

For more (but partly outdated) information about the very fascinating Scientology case in Sweden, these sites are recommended:

Failed US pressure on Sweden
Zenon vs CoS - the A.R.S. Posts
Operation Clamblake: Zenon Panoussis vs. Cult of Scientology

Moving on to the federal constitution of Switzerland, it is admittedly significantly younger (from 1848, although its democratic traditions are quite old and direct democracy has been an integral part of the country's history for some time. In my opinion, the Swiss constitution is the best overall, despite that the democracy comes with a price: slow decision making.

If anyone wants more info about the Swiss constitution, I whole-heartedly recommend the book "The Referendum - Direct Democracy in Switzerland" by US political scientist, professor Kris Kobach. The following URL can also be useful:

Global Ideas Bank - Exporting the Swiss constitution
ICL - Swiss Constitution

Kasreyn, investigate the Swiss system (see Initiative and Referendum) and see if it is close to what you seek - it still has some stupid things but it's a start. During my investigations of basic constitutional principles during the composition of South Africa's constitution (the liberation movement unfortunately yielded to the apartheid/right wing/corporate powers and instituted "representative" democracy which resulted in them eventually selling out to the World Bank, IMF, WTO...), direct democracy (DD) was immediately appealing to me.

If it wasn't so damn hard to learn a 3rd language I'd consider putting Switzerland ahead of New Zealand (were the Greens are growing *within* the "representative" system) as a new home.

> If the grass is greener on the other side... Use fertilizer

The problem with this is that some systems have made themselves immune to reform, try to successfully run for president in the USA without accepting bribes inside the institutionalized corrupt system. I can understand when one feels helpless to affect change in such a milieu.

In response to the jingoist posters who like *their* representative systems, I'd like to explain my view of direct democracy.

> representatives, and I truely believe that they are
> trying to do what they feel is best for the people [...]
> They are trying to give people what they want.
> -- Christianfreak

If totalitarianism is on the right, and anarchism on the left - then the USA flavor of "representative" democracy is diametrically to the right of center where DD is on the left. The DD idea is that, instead of politicians being voted into power (by those not disillusioned by "representative" democracy) and telling people how they should live their lives, people themselves decide on issues and who should execute their will.

I won't mention the S or C words, wouldn't want heads to explode.

Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted to govern himself. Can he, then, be trusted to govern others? - Thomas Jefferson

It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it. - Eugene Debs
--
mrBlond

And finally, China

And finally, China

Have a look at the following FAQ about Scientology in Germany for
all the boring little details. The document is partisan, but unlike
the CoS stuff, it keeps to the facts.

Even totalitarians need an illusion of justice. Have you read the Chineese constitution? It sounds very similar to our own bill of rights, with a few little changes that open the door for total government control.

Link to China's Constitution

Here are some good parts:

Article 22 [Culture]

1) The state promotes the development of literature and art, the press, broadcasting, and television undertakings, publishing and distribution services, libraries, museums, cultural centers and other cultural undertakings, that serve the people and socialism, and sponsors mass cultural activities.

Article 35

Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession, and of demonstration.

Article 37 [Personal Freedom]

(1) The personal freedom of citizens of the People's Republic of China is inviolable. (2) No citizen may be arrested except with the approval or by decision of a people's procuratorate or by decision of a people's court, and arrests must be made by a public security organ. (3) Unlawful deprivation or restriction of citizens' personal freedom by detention or other means is prohibited; and unlawful search of the person of citizens is prohibited.

Anyway, you get my point. Even the most oppressive government needs an illusion of freedom. Read the whole constution of China, and compare it to the Green Party platform. You might be surprised how similar they are.
-

Ah, finally we hear the voice of the Cult of $cientology, as filtered through one of their loyal members. At least it's better than all the 'Natalie Portman' sporgery that's been going on.

Well, duh! The Catholic Church and the German State are, of course, quite innocent of such motives; the Inquisition and the NAZI (most regrettable) excesses didn't really happen.

Well, duh! yourself. Please remember that those happened years (at least 50) ago and aren't really relevant to the issue at hand. Then again, if your policy is "allways attack / never defend", I guess it's more important to you to hit back than to make your arguement relevant. If relevance is an issue, the Cult of $cientology has been busy much more recently with such things as Operation China Shop, Operation Orange Juice, Operation Funny Bone, Operation Freakout, Operation Snow White, the murder of Lisa McPherson (as well as many others), and far too many other acts of pure evil to mention here (but that you can find here). And while were on the subject of $cientology and the Nazi-ism (you brought it up), don't forget to look here.

At least the Scientologists put out a good product

Matter of opinion. I've used both Diskeeper and Norton Utilities. It's my opinion that Norton Utilities is a much better product. I think it's pretty clear where your opinion comes from.

waged their war for the planet by reason and by legal means

Haha. Yeah, right. 'Reason'? From the people who brought you Xenu (Galactic Overlord of Distinction). And 'legal'? It sure doesn't look that way from where I'm sitting. Once again, what about Operation Snow White etc.?

for the real betterment of humanity

I think these people would disagree. Too bad they can't in person because they're dead.

Every organization screws up from time to time.

Thank god the Cult of $cientology screws up from time to time. Think of the evil they could accomplish if they weren't so incompetent.

But Scientology's screw-ups have been strategic rather than morally flawed.

Um. No. Maybe by the Cult of $Scientology's own special definition of ethics, but not in the real world. Once again, look at Operation Snow White etc.

Whatever you may think of proprietary religion, it is certainly no worse than proprietary software

It is when it kills people. And no, we don't like proprietary software around here either. Choose your arguements more carefully in future.

Scientology is not a threat to democracy.

Not while the Cult of $cientology can use the tools of democracy to press it's own totalitarian agenda. Once they do get control, though, watch out! The Germans have special experience with totalitarianism, and they know it when they see it.

Although Scientology admits to a plan for world domination, so does a certain cabal of OS programmers

But when we say it, it's a joke. When the Cult of $cientology says it, they mean it. Personally, I'd much rather have Linus in charge if I had to choose. And judging from how it treats its own members I'd have to say the Cult of $cientology is my last choice.

"Battlefield Earth"? I loved it. So did my 12 yr old son.

Really? I thought it kind of sucked. Well, actually I though it really sucked. I would think the average 12 year old would have better taste. At 12 years old, I was reading (and enjoying) Heinlein.

Oh, and before you start branding me as some anti-religious bigot or pawn of the anti-$cientology movement, don't. I like most religions. Comparative theology is one of my hobbies. $cientology is just one of the many religions I've studied, and not even the most evil one at that. It's just currently on topic.

This is because Scientology is perceived in Germany neither as a church, nor as a sect, but as an organisation threatening the democratic system in germany. They are observed
by the german "Verfassungsschutz" and aswered this with a public relations campaign, even drawing parallels to the persecution of Jews in the Third Reich.

This is because Scientology is perceived in Germany neither as a church, nor as a sect, but as an organisation threatening the democratic system in germany. They are observed
by the german "Verfassungsschutz" and aswered this with a public relations campaign, even drawing parallels to the persecution of Jews in the Third Reich.

This is because Scientology is perceived in Germany neither as a church, nor as a sect, but as an organisation threatening the democratic system in germany. They are observed
by the german "Verfassungsschutz" and aswered this with a public relations campaign, even drawing parallels to the persecution of Jews in the Third Reich.

Here is a complaint by U.S. District Judge James M. Ideman about Scientologist harrassment.

An internal document describing "Operation Freak-Out", A plan to discredit and ultimately have Paula Cooper committed for exposing Scientology practices

Another internal document describing "Operation:Freakout"

"Operation Snow-White", a systematic attempt to infiltrate and steal classified files on Scientology from governments all around the world. It was exposed by the FBI and led to several arrests.

There is sooo much more, but I'll leave it at that for now. Your beloved Xenu certainly works in mysterious ways...

Here is some more good reading for folks to explore while waiting for the xenu.net matter to get straightened out:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/

http://www.rickross.com/groups/scientolo gy.html

http://wpxx02.toxi.un i-wuerzburg.de/~cowen/essays/essays.html

http://www.xenutv.com

(I'll bet that this story will probably get Slashdot placed on the ScienoScitter block list, if it isn't already...)

I've been a critic of Scientology for about two years now. I'm lucky that I'm in Perth, Western Australia. The scientology popluation here is small enough that I can say what I want on my web site and not be subjected to the abuses that critics in other parts of the world are. And that is my main complaint about the organisation. You could stand in front of Billy Grahem or the Pope and critise them to their face, but speak out against Scientology, and they'll try their damnest to crusify you. Check out the story of Paulette Cooper. She wrote a book about them, and according to the web page, the Church of Scientology tried to forge a bomb threat against Henry Kissinger in Cooper's name. This plan has become known as "Operation Freakout". It's real, and it's happening to people all around the world right now. Andea is a very public example of what's happening to a lot of people all around the world.

Tim