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FRG on W2K: No CoS
Anonymous Coward writes: "Germany pressured MSFT into removing the defrag tool in Win2k because it was developed by a software company whose CEO is a Scientologist. They were afraid there were security risks from using software from a Scientologist. No joke." The outcome of this bizarre and long-running story stemming from the interaction of Germany, Scientology, and programming, according to reader telstar, is that "Microsoft has decided that they would provide step-by-step instructions in German on how to uninstall this utility."
Scientology IS a criminal organization. The thing that surprises me is that they are still allowed to roam free in the rest of the world. This is a Good Thing (tm).
The whole religion is based on L. Ron Hubbard's failed science fiction writings. The premise is that your body is inhabited by evil demons banished to earth millions of years ago and you must give the $cientologists millions of dollars in order to help you through various 'levels' of spiritual development where you eventually rid yourself of these demons. L. Ron Hubbard was a stupid, failed science fiction writer, but evidently he was a bullshit artist on par with Bill Gates and Adolf Hitler, because now this whole bullshit religion has flourished. Read more http://www.xenu.net.
This comment is right, read this for more info. The Co$ is more evil than M$ (believe it or not)... at least M$ uses courts and legal means. The "Church of $cientology uses harrasment, impersonation, violence, bribery, assasination, etc, etc ... one of their official church manuals (confiscated in a raid a few years ago) stated that "any means are allowed in order to silence a critic." Anything from discrediting the person, damaging their property, kidnapping a loved one, beating and raping a spouse... anything. Think about that and tell me what kind of a 'religion' that sham of a bullshit money hungry crock cult is.
Anyone who tells you Scientology isn't dangerous or should be protected under freedom-of-religion doesn't know what Scientology is all about. It's no more a religion than, as another poster, Amway, but it's far, far more destructive. Where Amway will get you to do stupid things like try to sell cheap-ass junk to your friends and cost you some money, Scientology will destroy your mental health, estrange you from everyone you know, physically rape your friends and relatives, force you into slave labor to pay for the very classes that are ruining you, and, should you try to leave, will discredit you, harass you, defame you, file lawsuits against you, and make your life hell until you commit suicide (a href="http://www.xenu.net/">see xenu.net for details.) And, yes, you post anonymously when you speak out against them, or they'll come after you and your loved ones. I can take care of myself, but I wouldn't unleash them on my family for anything.
Religious protection.. hah.
Well, whatever you think of Micro$oft, they are not known to have burgled government files and engaged in similar criminal activities.
Does somebody buy software from NSA? Perhaps if they were renting office space in German government buildings to sections of NSA, and providing them with master keys for the whole building, that would be a more valid comparison.
The German response to the Scientologists is not persecution of a religion. Scientology is not a religion, but a SCAM based on extorting money from its victims (low level adherents) and intimidating its opposition. It costs thousands of dollars to be made "clear" by the pseudoscientific nonsense of the Scientology witch doctors.
in a defrag program.
please.
shows that the US government can still take lessons from us (me being a german) when it comes to telling M$ to jump. :-)
I mean, you've been on this explorer thing for how long now? will it even matter anymore when the lawsuit is finally over?
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
I'd be more concerned about software from a company with a CoS programmer than a CoS CEO. After all, if the only person who wants to insert nasty code is the CEO, chances are he's not going to be able to. If a programmer or a few want to insert nasty code, they could do so without anyone being any the wiser-- and the whole thing will be easier to hide.
Germany probably is reasonable in being suspicious of this program, but they ought to be carefully reviewing all of the programs they use; they should review everything sufficiently that they don't care where it came from.
Actually, I wasn't the first to use the Nazi comparisons in this thread; there were several others. Otherwise, I wouldn't have done it; I don't like to be the one to invoke that law.
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Banning it just because some fellow is involved in scientology. Why shouldn't they be allowed to keep their beliefs like everybody else?
It's been said that scientology is not a religion, it's a cult, that infiltrates goverments and institutions. If this criteria was applied fairly, then the entire M$ product would be banned, as they attempt to infiltrate and influence the goverment. Not only that but just about everything else would be banned as well. How about GNU? They infiltrate Comapnies, and Universities, and try to influence those too.
Then there are those stories about how people have been abused by scientology. They volunteered to do whatever they did. It's their own fault. I myself have been approached by scientology, gave them a "no thank you", and they went away. It wasn't difficult to do.
I did not call you Asshole.
:-)
That sounds like something a German would say to a Scientologist if you transpose me and you
Regarding your statement:
"I merely pointed out that it creates the appearance of wrongdoing for a government to perform an action like this."
Well appearances can be deceiving.
And I am tired of being regarded as or compared to a Nazi just because I happen to be German. Which was what you (and the "C"oS) used to critisize the German government.
BTW: The Open Source Movement is also strengthened by this German fear of sofware from dubious sources.
Moritz
" Killed millions of indians, had slavery, has a war on harmless drug users"
Note the use of past tense for the first entries and the use of present tense (has/had).
Moritz
Judaism was never "legally" a criminal offence in the Third Reich. There were stroing laws against mixed marriages and many discriminatory measures, but being a Jew was never a "crime" in the strict sense of the word.
And CoS is not illegal in Germany, you just won't get employed by the state and get public contracts.
Moritz
If you want to remove the defragmenting utility, it's not very hard. Start -> Search -> "dfrg" will show you the files.
The NTFS defragmenter, written by Executive Software, is somewhat interesting. Back in the days of NT 4.0, if you wanted NTFS defragmentation, you had to get Executive Software's Diskeeper program. AFAIK, there was no alternative, not even from Microsoft. Evidently, Microsoft decided not to re-invent the wheel and licensed a stripped-down version of Diskeeper for Win2k. This version does not include "Set it and Forget it" backup scheduling or paging file defragmentation like the real Diskeeper program does. The fact that you can't schedule defragmentations is cheesy but easy to get around with a Windows cron daemon and a scripting utility. If you search for dfrg, you'll find the dfrg.mmc (IIRC), which you can drag onto your desktop for quick-and-easy access to this utility.
Contrary to what the previous poster said, I have certainly noticed performance issues on machines with fragmented NTFS partitions. In fact, they're so bad that I defragment my drives nightly. If you let them go for months, it's going to take hours and many, many re-runs of the defragmenter to get your drive back in order.
The page on http://www.religiousrolerance.org/ actually contains a lot more on CoS. They believe that CoS does not keep people from leaving them, and keep pointing at anti-cult organisations that focus on more cults than the CoS. However they do include evidence that CoS has lost several interesting legal cases, is remarkeably aggressive at keeping their trade secrets (trade secrets? Im sure glad the Bible, Koran, etc. arent trade secrets) and ask a lot of money for those higher religious texts. A few years ago, when the issue of CoS versus some internet free-speech people was at its peak (see Karin Spaink, www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink), I read quite a lot about CoS and it seems to me to be a real threat. Granted, there are good and bad people on both sides but the evidence that the CoS organisation is bad is pretty overwhelming to me. (note: Im talking about the organisation and their policies, not their beliefs which seem rather wacky to me as well but dont really bother me) I agree with the German government that they should be very careful with CoS, and understand the concerns raised in Germany about the defrag program. Before I read it here on /. I didnt know about the W2K-CoS connection and it does seem to be a convenient way for the CoS to gain some more power. I doubt the security problem (unless very cleverly implemented, I guess by now somebody would have seen evidence of the bad side of the program if it existed) but I wouldnt be very happy funding the CoS by buying their software :(
A quick search found:
l
:)
http://www.scientology-lies.com/crimesindex.htm
note that I didnt have time to verify these claims, so draw your own conclusions
Signal 11 vs. L. Ron? Round 1 - FIGHT!
Backdoors.
--
Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
-Possum Lodge Motto
No, it doesn't. Very few Catholics were killed, and those only after the Roman Catholic Church decided that Hitler wasn't going to win, and deserted him (not as if he didn't deserve it). At the start of the war, Hitler publicly stated that he wanted to design the Reich along the same lines os the Jesuit organisation, and until they bailed out, the Roman Church were very strong supporters of him, so much so that they had to pedal very hard after the war to prevent the Pope from being tried as a war criminal.
OTOH millions of Orthodox believers in places like (wait for it) the former Yugoslavia were murdered around WWII time, not by gas ovens but by their Catholic neighbours as directed by gun-toting priests and the Ustashi, using methods like herding them into their own churches and then torching the building. Grandma or baby, in you went.
Lest we forget.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Find me One religion that hasn't committed atrocities in the name of "God" (whoever that might be to them) and I'll eat my CPU.
Break out the sauce code. There are several flavours of Protestantism which are quite clean of atrocity on religious grounds (although Seventh-day Adventism recently took a bit of a hit by not preventing its people from becoming involved in the Rwandan wars, not that there was an enormous amount of choice).
And before you ask, yes, there are recorded instances of professed Atheists (e.g., Russian Communists, and some of the Nazi secret services - although many of the Reich were/are more or less Catholics) shooting members of various religions simply because they were not Atheists.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Challenge - name ONE major religion which has NOT had many atrocities (sp?) carried out in its name
``Christianity'' is so diverse a group that you can't possibly lump them all in together and deal with them en bloc. Many subsections of Protestantism have clean hands in this regard.
The participants in the initially quiet Christian revolution (Ti Ping Revolution) in China many hundreds of years ago did well until the Romans discovered them and incited the neighbouring Shinto groups to wage war on them. They weren't even Protestant, as such, since they didn't know that Rome existed.
Likewise the ``St Thomas Christians'' in India until the Goan Inquisition was set up - thanks to whom modern STC are quite different to the originals.
(with the exception of Wicca.
Who, friendly and harmless as most Wiccans are, carry out their atrocities in such small pieces that they're often never discovered, let alone noticed.
And no, Bhuddism doesn't count as that is a philosohpy, not a religion per se).
Funny, Roman Catholicism inherited an awful lot of practices (e.g. indulgences) from a mere philosophy. People don't build and worship thumping great gold idols for a philosophy, however they will do that for a religion. End of story.
The other posters forgot some notable ones: Atheism (think Russia and China), and interesting groups like the Janaists, who wear cloth mouthguards and sweep their paths to avoid harming as much as an insect, but OTOH sent hundreds of assassins after Baghwan Shree Rajneesh becuase of his exclusionism (would you believe!).
But you did spell ``atrocities'' right. (-:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
write me a trojan/virus/worm hidden in a movie file and I will be quite happy to change my mind
Can you say ``subliminal advertising?'' Good, 'coz that's a movie Trojan. Changed your mind yet? (-:
Or were you after something like Independence Day, which portrays someone throwing together a virus in WinCE (hey, maybe they just used WinCE as it is) and uploading it (how?) into alien hardware and software to devastating effect (ie a normal Windows install)?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
There are many Americans that claim to support Freedom of Religion and yet they continue to declare what is and isn't a religion. Take George W. Bush for example. He has been quoted to say the Wiccan belief system is not a religion. That is dangerous.
:-) and then paid hardly anything to God's institutions, it would be pretty clear that this was tax evasion, not religion. You must draw a line somewhere.
It is indeed. On the other hand, how do you decide whether a religion is bona fide? A government must decide or it can't govern the people involved. If I founded a religion whose primary premise is that paying more to Government institutions than to God's institutions was immoral (-: hmmm, sounds pretty reasonable when put that way
I believe that the line should be the ``and'' line.
That is, if a religion has spiritual beliefs and those beliefs are overtly hostile to government, then for purposes of government we are not dealing with a religion here but a subversive organisation. Yes, you will get abuse of genuine freedom, but we've got that already: for a relatively benign example, when the government funds a parochial school it is violating the freedom-of-religion cause as much as if it had banned the school from something.
It's doing the same thing again when it overwhelmingly funds research into a particular unproven but popular theory, research that works strenuosly to uphold a particular set of beliefs (and never mind the less convenient observations) as opposed to all others.
Personally, I do not support what Germany is doing to CoS but I have no right to impose my American ideals onto the German people. To do so is also dangerous.
Absolutely! The Pilgrims came to America not for genuine freedom of their own, but in order to be able to oppress people in their own way (Blue Laws, for example). The US Constitution happened more or less as a reaction to this kind of thinking, and not before time, either.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Trying to associate Nazi officials with the Catholic Church will get you tangled in web of contradictory historical references, that may leave you embarassed quoting revisionists.
I just go back to copies of the original documents, no revisionism required. I think you stopped researching at the wrong layer of revision. If the Roman heirarchy hadn't been involved, it would have been singularly out of character, and historical anomaly.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Hair splitting by means of labels won't work.
There are some extremely basic, core differences in principle which don't show up in a careless overview of the resulting doctrines, but which make a huge behavioural difference.
Just because it happened doesn't make it one of Hitlers stated motivations.
Eh? Hitler went to the trouble of writing it down! Granted, some many 'roos were missing from his top paddock, and he was often rowing with only one oar, but he did say that such things should be done.
You're still down at least one explanation, in particular the USSR and the behaviour of Soviet Communism.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
...at his ``body thetans,'' so if he's the empitome of Scientology, I want none of it, thank you. OTOH, I did enjoy his war-and-peace ``Battlefield Earth'' SciFi novel...
They also have this pulled-from-the-air idea that the Earth is 75 million years old, a figure which puzzles evolutionists and creationists alike.
A Scientologist here in Perth sat me down and offered me ``control of my life'' while she herself was clearly incapable of controlling her own smoking habit. This sounds a lot like Microsoft and security, so perhaps the utility is more compatible than Germany thinks. (-:
Many years ago (1980?) my sister and I did one of their timed tests. I pre-scanned it before beginning to answer, and it seemed fairly clear from the questions that they wanted a total mercenary, so... they got one! I romped through the questions, quickly choosing the mercenary answer each time, almost always the most self-seving answer as well, and I think not by coincidence. Sister, being the sensitive, emotive type, scored very low. I got ``Uh... well... you did very well indeed on this test, but we can still help you...'' I love it when a basically honest person run up against policy and the honesty wins! (-:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
I'm sure there are many followers of Scientology who have contributed Open Source code, but I'd be surprised if any of it made a serious security breach, firstly because not everything a Scientologist does is necessarily subversive and secondly because if they did, this random-peer-review thingy would have them straightened out in no time.
Microsoft: And for some strange reason they weren't afraid of security risks from Microsoft itself? Or the NSA? Or even the insecure-by-design philosopy that let MS itself get hacked by a kiddie?
Amusing piece of doublethink, methinks. (-: Willing to deal with one devil but, oh my goodness, not that other devil...
Inquisition: There are many large social groups whose charter require them to act on the same principles as the Scientology organisation does, but perhaps the scariest and traditionally most destructive has been and is the Roman Church. If Cardinal Ratzinger (current head of what was once called the Inquisition) gets to be the next Pope, and maybe even if not, Church-dominated countries like Germany will find that Scientology is really both small and amateur on the politics and skullduggery fronts. Millions of confessionals and staff worldwide provide a political information resource about which Scientology can only dream enviously, and with nearly a billion adherents, only China could hope to field as many ``troops'' if it came down to a matter of open conflict.
If you think I'm kidding, find out about the Goan Inquisition. More than a million people died in it, many of them good, strong Catholics, only a few hundred years ago - and yet evidence even of its existence is already scarce. If an organisation can sweep a million deaths at one location under the carpet, what about elsewhere? Goa was only a branch office of the Spanish Inquisition.
Religion and politics are dangerous bedfellows. If you're going to choose a religion, choose one which carefully keeps them separate. This eliminates many forms of Christianity, Bhuddism, Judaism, Islam and Atheism. Is there anyone that I haven't offended yet? It should take about three seconds to moderate this through the floor... with postings like this one, who needs a karma cap? (-:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
It would be very hard to do business if everybody suspected the software of having alterior motives.
Now, who would suspect, say, Outlook of having ulterior motives? Blue Mountain Greeting Cards? Never! Microsoft, Microsoft, uber alles - and Netscape programmers are weenies!
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Scientology is not a religion, but a SCAM based on extorting money from its victims (low level adherents) and intimidating its opposition. It costs thousands of dollars to be made "clear" by the pseudoscientific nonsense of the Scientology witch doctors.
And it's a subset of TA anyway. Read Eric Berne's book What do you say after you say hello? and see a less nebulous engram-uprooting method for about $Oz10 instead of $US thousands.
The thing that boggles my mind is that Scientology has no particular end other than itself any more. It has bootstrapped itself beyond the need for reasons, and also beyond reason as that term is normally understood.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Oh, by the way, Has anyone noticed this trend to qualify religions? Bush doesn't recognise some beliefs as religions - therefore they don't get freedom of religious choice.
Does this mean that the Church of the Four Day Work Week doesn't get official sanction? Boo, hiss! (-:
Seriously, on one hand Bush's method is the reason that the US Constitution has been so badly eroded in pratice in recent years, and on the other hand there are several religions whose primary goal is not so much the veneration of anything or anyone (although this is often at least a secondary goal) as world domination and the promotion of the organisation itself rather than any particular diety or lack thereof.
BTW, does anyone know what the inside of a Church of Humanism looks like? Is there really a big mirror across the front? (-:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Why do white people need a separate class of 'rights' -- why can't everyone have equal rights under the law? BTW I am white, for what that's worth, and I think the Aryan Nation and other "white rights" movements are just a flimsy cover (white sheet, if you will) for your basic pig ignorant racism. Anyway, I know a lot of people who fall into a 'minority' category who are a lot better class of people than your average trailer trash whitey who subscribes to KKK Kwarterly. Then again, I don't know why I'm even bothering to reply to you, because this was such a blatant troll.
---
The current karma freeze is broken. If you are at >50 karma then you can go down, but not up. Unfortunately a controversial post will generate lots of moderation in both directions - the negative mods will pull you down but the positive mods won't do anything. I've had several +5 posts that caused me to lose karma because there were a couple of overrateds in there. Not a bid deal since I will be above 25 for a while, but still a little annoying.
Scuttlemonkey is a troll
It was really big in the News here in Sweden when it happened. The swedish government have by now modified swedish law because of the CoS story.
Of course, one could claim that the CoS had every right to be pissed off. The most secret of their documents were made public, and people will not join a movement (religious or otherwise) if they read in its bible about space emperors from ten million years ago dumping crippled angels in an earthly volcano. You need several years of education inside the movement before you can accept such a story. Perhaps it's just metaphores, and you therefore cannot understand what the story is really about until you've been properly trained.
I don't know, and I don't intend to find out. As long as the CoS follows the law (and does not infiltrate governments etc), let them do what they want. But when they attempt to take over the world, it might be a good idea to react. It is probably even better to react some time before, lest your reactions be in vain.
And even if the stories to which you referr are somewhat exaggerated, I think that can be OK if it makes people aware that there might be a problem. After all, stories posted anonymously hopefully aren't taken fully seriously anyways.
I'm not catching your meaning here. If I write some files a,b,c,d,e,f, and g like this:
:-)
aaaaabbbbbbbbcccccddeeeeeeeeeffffffggggg
then I delete file c:
aaaaabbbbbbbb_____ddeeeeeeeeeffffffggggg
then I write file h (and h happens to be bigger than c was) it looks like this:
aaaaabbbbbbbbhhhhhddeeeeeeeeeffffffggggghhh
That means the file is in two pieces, on two different parts of the drive, and the disk needs to pick up it's heads and move them to read the tail end of the file like this:
_____________hhhhh______________________hhh
Now if I run disk defragmenter, it will pick up all these files and put them down so they're written to contiguous blocks like this:
aaaaabbbbbbbbhhhhhhhhddeeeeeeeeeffffffggggg
And this is a good thing.
Back to the topic - I really think that there are two sets of people in Germany, and these sets probably do not have much overlap - 1. the people afraid of Scientology in their computers, and 2. the users of Windows 2000. And anyone with reason to use a real OS (ie. not a Win9x based OS) who IS afraid of CoS is probably using SuSE anyway.
They should make all the Scientologists wear yellow stars, that way ordinary Germans would know how to treat them without the bother of having to think for themselves.
How come that this is the usual Godwin's law-applying response by Scientology shills in alt.religion.scientology?
Why am I not surprised that you are an anonymous poster?
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You may like my a cappella music
Hey, it's America, where people are innocent til proven guilty (for the most part...)
I believe rt.org is obviously deluded about the Co$, but what they have to say is interesting. Perhaps our main goal about this, and and most other issues, should be to try and get the truth out in the real world...
from http://www.religioustolerance.org/scientol.htm:
"The US Food and Drug Administration raided Scientology offices on 1963-JAN-4 and seized hundreds of the Church's E-meters as illegal medical devices. The devices are now required to carry a disclaimer saying that they are a purely religious artifact. They are used in a Scientology counseling technique known as "auditing". During the 1970s, the Church and many other emerging religions came under increasing attack from the anti-cult movement. In 1977, as a result of an FBI raid, some senior people in the movement's Guardian's Office were convicted of stealing government documents. In 1965, the Australian government had banned Scientology, however in 1983, the High Court of Australia overturned the decision, contributing greatly to the scope of religious freedom in that country."
"Many counter-cult groups accuse the Church of Scientology (and other religious groups with which they disagree on theological grounds) of not allowing members to leave the church, or of endlessly harassing them in an attempt to force them back into the fold. We have found these claims to be false with other religious groups, and we believe that it is also untrue in the case of Scientology. "
"A war of sorts is raging on the Internet between the church, anti-Scientology individuals and persons dedicated to preserving total freedom of speech on the Internet. Starting in 1994-DEC, the Church has aggressively attempted to defend their copyright on a wide range of confidential Church documents including rituals that they regard as highly secret. This has brought them into conflict with numerous Internet users and service providers who are keen to promote the complete freedom of speech on the Net, without regard to copyrights held by individuals and organizations. "
All my negative comments about this defragmentation software I have posted on dejanews has dissapeared :-[
It's an example of social prejudice. Equating Germans and actions of modern Germany with Nazi's is just as ignorant as equating Jews with thieves, blacks with spear chucking, Latino's with being sombrero wearing boozers, and asians with Imperial Japan or 'Charlie'. Still today, especially in America, people of German descent are refered to as Nazi's, krauts, etc... As are people of Japanese descent refered to as Tojo, slant, etc... More people of German or Japanese descent need to take the stance that I have and start saying "I wasn't there, I had nothing to do with it, so fuck off."
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
In fact, the German government ordered one of it's agencies to do a full code audit on all code written by the defrag util maker and all core interfacing with it. :-)
But, no surprise, Microsoft did not at any price agree to showing even one line of code, even if it wasn't "theirs".
This little battle of "let me review it - no, NEVER EVER OVER MY REMAINS" has been going on for at least half a year now. And only after so much time, has MS agreed to remove the tool. What surprises me even more is, that the German government accepted this proposal. I would have sworn that they would not let loose until they see the source code. After I LOVE YOU, I could have imagined ALL code being reviewed. There must have lots of pressure from somewhere overseas with anti-dupming and super101 and, you should open your markets like our market (but dare try to bring something in that's more competetive then our stuff) stories
> hmmmm. a scientologist moderator thinks my remark was off-topic.
They've expanded their services. They now clear karma as well as engrams.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Can we get a REFUND? I don't want to pay no steenkin' scientologist even a fraction of a peny of my money.
Come to think of it, I wasn't intending to pay MS a peny of my money either, so that's probably OK :-)
Nick Waterman, Sr Tech Director, #include <stddisclaimer>
There is such a thing as the Free-zoners - people who apply the doctrines of Scientology to their lives without being members of the Church of Scientology. I'd have no problem hiring a Free Zoner or using software written by them.
--
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Do I look like I speak for my employer?
So you're calling for a boycott on Ford?
--
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Do I look like I speak for my employer?
It's a conspiracy, man! The same thing happened to me a few months ago. My karma took an approximate 10 point hit, and then began slipping one point almost every day since then. It eventually leveled out in the twenties. It was in the mid sixties when this started.
Needless to say I was pissed. Being one who took moderation and the use of the +2 seriously, it seemed like a betrayal that either Malda himself, or miscreants taking advantage of his social engineering, had punished me for trying to make the system work.
My advice: don't give a shit anymore. Slashdot is broken, and Malda doesn't seem too intent on lifting a finger to fix it. For god's sake, even the posting modes are still mislabeled!
And you know, it isn't that hard to whore yourself up to the +2 again. There are even instructions.
--
Bush's assertion: there ought to be limits to freedom
Not entirely true. I had 57 karma for quite a while after the karma cap went into effect. You could go down, just not up. I'm sure there are people out there with Uber-50 karma still.
:-)
But I don't think Signal 11 is among them.
-- IANAEG - I am not an elder god.
It was out sourced because for the longest time Microsoft refused to admit that any deframentation what so ever was needed on a NT system. Others thought it was bunk, and wrote defragmenters anyway. .Eventually microsoft backed down, admitted that one was needed, and included one of the more popular ones with Windows 2000. It was about bloody time. Are there any other defragmenters still around?
>this from the guys who don't know how to remove IE from windows. Perhaps Judge Jackson's demonstration that he himself could remove IE in under 5 minutes has made "application removal" a focus issue for MS.
In terms of "application removal", it has nothing to do with if something is possible (almost anything in software is possible), but how many dependancies get screwed up in the process. The defrag in question by my guess has two dependancies.
1) Registration as a MMC snapin
2) The presense of the snapin in the "computer management" mmc control panel
In comparison pulling out IE completly would break a much much larger number of apps and features. ( hiding the ui from the desktop and start menu of course is a 5 minute thing )
So removing defrag is "easy" and safe to remove. Something like ie would require massive changes all of which reinvent the wheel plus then a ton of testing. Your comparison between the two is silly.
What system does that? Linux definately obscures
your passwords as you're typing them in, as does
just about every computer system before it.
They did this through one of their members, an american congressman
I just did a search and found Howard Coble and Carlos Moorhead, members of the Subcommittee on Courts and Intellectual Property both wrote letters to the Swedish Parliament on this matter. Which one of them is a Scientologist? Both?
Do you have *any* evidence of this or was this something you heard from a friend of a friend?
I'm no fan of these guys, but look at who's getting modded up in this discussion.
- An anonymous supposed former member comparing them to Nazis and Amway
- An anonymous critic who thinks the CoS corrupted up his root nfs key
- An anonymous coward saying "I don't remember this for sure, but I think..." and "Trust me" in the same paragraph.
Is it possible that these people are genuine and truly have been intimidated by the CoS? Yes. Is it possible that these people are embellishing their stories? Yes. Are they in any way useful or informative? No.
If you're looking for at reasonable criticism of the church and its tactics (with evidence, wow!), go to www.xenu.net and the many other sites which have somehow managed to stay up despite the overwhelming power of the Scientology Secret Police.
-Bruce
Anyways German courts have decided Scientology is not a religion. I tend to agree.
And why should a government or a court (or you) ever be in a position to decide what is a religion? Why do they need government recognition at all? They can get their tax breaks by being a nonprofit organization. Schools and the military can allow time for anyone who wants to pray.
That said, there's no question that Scientology *is* a religion. It might be a crappy one, or one you don't like, or one that has characteristics of a cult, but it certainly a religion.
To steal a couple of definitions from dictionary.com:
"A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader."
"A cause, a principle, or an activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion."
Seems to fit Scientology pretty damn well!
-Bruce
The Catholics. They are what the CO$ aspire to be.
What are priest doing in their spare time?
Why am I not surprised you posted that as Anonymous Coward?
But I don't want my government banning software based on WHO produced it without consideration of the software's content.
Well, Microsoft was asked to disclose the source code to the software in question but would not (maybe could not?) comply. Instead they now provide instructions on how to deinstall it.
"I will gladly pay you today, sir, and eat up
Sacred cows make the best burgers.
Their BELIEFS aren't at issue here. (well, except for the 'it's okay to destroy any person that is an impediment to our progress' one.) Their BEHAVIORS are what people are frightened of.
This isn't religious intolerance, this is simple practicality. I, for one, take issue with people trying to destroy my life in a highly organized and systematic way because I don't agree with their goals.
Before you spout again, go do some research.
You make a number of assertions, but no arguments. If their evil has been documented "hundreds of times in as many places," then you ought easily to be able to cite at least a dozen URL's which substantiate at least several dozen examples.
I don't spout unless I have done research. And I am never an anonymous chickenshit.
When I was still serving in the U.S. military, I published a letter in a U.S. military newspaper which supported the burning of the flag. Bricks were hurled through my windows by anonymous patriots for over a week. I do practice what I preach. I am openly bisexual, and an atheist (not popular lifestyles in the land of the free and the home of the brave), and I would shit on L. Ron's Dianetics within view of a Scientologist if I thought that Scientology was an evil bent on "literally taking over the world."
When you can provide at least a dozen substantiated incidents of Scientology evil, I will bow before your greater knowledge. Meanwhile, don't spout without providing the hard evidence.
Neopets - the best free game on the Int
The CoS bothered to harrass this funtionally-illiterate imbecile?
I am not surprised. If this sort of obvious troll can be moderated to a 4, then anything is possible. Still, I am amazed that the CoS would have "infilitrated" someone unable to spell "sceintology."
Neopets - the best free game on the Int
You will find that my assertions are backed by reams and reams of facts. I don't need to clog up bandwidth by repeating what everyone else has already posted.
The common rebuttal of those who have few, if any, facts to present.
I have read hundreds of assertions, dozens of forceful and aggressive declarations which purport that X or Y is true of Scientologists. What is lacking is proof.
You state that "these people are dangerous." This is a blanket statement inferring some vast conspiracy on the part of the CoS. Of course, in any large institution, there will be those whom you can define as "evil." The Catholic church has an alarming number of priests who are pederasts; it is a Catholic plan to bugger all young boys?
Simply because some Scientologists are evil bastards does not qualify you to insist that all of Scientology is evil. Internal documents mean nothing; does all of Christiandom believe or follow absolutely everything that the bible advocates?
Your willing suspension of the rules of logic and evidence is amazing - and appalling.
Neopets - the best free game on the Int
CoS is no more evil than many other religions. It is just the currently acceptable (almost PC, especially on Slashdot) whipping-boy.
That something is de rigueur doesn't make it right. Anecdotal evidence isn't sufficient to condemn an entire belief system. Yes, you would have to be pretty fucking stupid to believe what the average Scientologist apparently believes, but I will extend that scorn to anyone to believes anything out of willful ignorance.
I know people who believe that dinosaurs never walked the earth - that the fossil evidence is the snare of some mythological being called "Satan." I know people who believe who that we will burn in a lake of fire forever if we aren't immersed in H20, if we don't accept the sacrifice of a long decayed (if ever historically existent) savior, if we don't eat of this savior's flesh and drink of his blood in ghoulish cannibalistic ritual.
I know others who would die from dehydration rather than quench their thirst from a vessel previously used by an "untouchable." I know adults who believe that they have been abducted and anally probed by aliens. I know other adults who live in fear of a children's plaything named a "ouija board."
No brainwashing was required to separate these people from their sanity, so why badger the Scientologists?
If they have performed criminal acts, let the courts punish them. Otherwise, let us remember that the Spanish Inquistion was no less a crime because it happened a long time ago. Anti-Catholic diatribes and half-truths aren't acceptable on Slashdot, so why should obvious trolls hiding under the shield of the "Anonymous Coward?"
Neopets - the best free game on the Int
> ... so what's the difference between this and virtually all other religions? (western religions, at least...)
Exactly. It seems all Christians are after the same goal. Convert everyone, imprison and terrorize (e.g., abortionists) the rest.
Find and share links to celebrity profiles on MySpace! http://www.myspacecelebrities.com
Since they want the utility to be removed completely, people would never be able to defrag. That would be ugly indeed.
This is not flamebait.
"This country"? So by virute of living in America, I agree with all of the items listed? Not hardly. American isn't criticizing the German government's actions, individuals are.
the german government used to shut down businesses run by people with religious persuasions they didn't agree with - remember? it was 1939 and they had a problem with jews?
anyone? bueller?
Yes, your system would be a lot more secure if every time you logged on it did not obscure your password as it was typed in, instead allowing anyone nearby to gain access to your machine as you. That is much more secure.
Sorry, but this is BS. Would it be OK for you if another country did this? Just because of their history the Germans should not be allowed to do what they think is right?
No, clearly not. I was just talking about the appearance that was created, not about the moral rectitude of the act itself.
This is exactly what this is all about. It was the German government's choice to not use this defrag tool and they are also giving everyone else that wants to do this the choice to do so!
I realize this was the end result. The original intent of the german gov't based on the article on MSNBC and on the /. posting was to ban. The compromise result was as you described, which we all agree is a Good Thing. I never intended to dispute that. The lack of clarity in my first post was unfortunate, and has resulted in a flamefest.
Stuff like this coming from the US sounds really strange. Three keywords: "Native Americans", death penalty, KKK!
Sorry, this is just bunk. I am not the US. I am a US citizen but it's irrelevant to this thread. My ancestors weren't here when the Native Americans were butchered, they were busy fleeing Eastern European pogroms, I am opposed to the death penalty, and I don't think the KKK would admit me since I'm Jewish. More importantly, there is a HUGE difference between a government and the individuals who reside in a political municipality that a lot of people posting seem not to recognize. So my point is the "stuff" isn't coming from "the US". I am not "the US". I am an individual who sees unfortunate things come out both the US and Germany. I think certain episodes in American history have been tragic. Almost comparable in evil to the Holocaust, which was perpetrated by the German government under unlawful Nazi rule. In any case, it's the memory of those incidents that keeps some of us here in the US cautious of prejudging other groups, organizations, cults, religions, etc.
And I regard them similarly. My point seemed to have been totally missed because I went ahead and showed what happened when you transposed some words and how the damned thing could be interpreted. Everyone agrees fighting terrorism is good. But should we ban software written by radical muslims, whose organizations (which I don't consider to be legitimate religions either, since no legitimate religion calls for the murder of other people based on nationality or religion) are clearly evil? Maybe we should... but there's a fuzzy line between cult and religion and terrorist organization and who falls where depends on who you ask - so while it makes sense to fight the organizations directly, I don't believe it makes sense to wage war against economic or commercial products with a tenuous link to the organization.... but maybe that's because I'm an American and I worship free trade.
Dipshit AC, if you bothered to read the rest of my posts you would clearly understand that I am not flaming the German nation. I clearly have stated that I recognize the reality that a security risk is possible and that the government has an obligation to act on that. I did not know that the request for source was denied as I didn't do the research on this. I simply commented on the perception it created in an uninformed, non-expert American like myself. I am knowledgable about the evil acts that have been committed by the CoS, but I also know about a lot of fucking evil acts that have been committed by other organizations. There is still a difference between an orgnanization and an individual. And there is still a negative perception that could be created by the way in which this was handled. I agree that the outcome was generally fine (MS made it possible to remove defrag) and I agree that this was what happened after other steps. But if you read the posting and some of the relevant articles you would see that people at least asserted that the German government was trying to ban software produced by a company that has a CEO who is a Scientologist. My point is what if the CEO of a company is a member or backer of the PLO or Hamas. What if it's the COO, and not the CEO? Or what if it's just a Senior Software Engineer? Where the hell do you draw the line? If the organization is owned and run by CoS, then it's a different story entirely. This is essentially a question of economic philosophy - the German government can do whatever the hell it wants on government owned computers but if I were a German I would want the right to decide whether I thought it was a security risk to run software produced by a company with some unknown degree of affiliation with CoS. I wouldn't want the government telling me I couldn't run it based on their judgement.
Thanks, netpixie. That was all I ever intended to do. I think I got something out of the discussion too.... and saw some good points which hadn't occurred to me before. But I didn't intend to flame the German nation as I was accused of doing nor to bait flamers (which I apparently successfully did - although it was entirely by accident).
This is also not flamebait. It was a defense against somebody who flamed me and got modded as insightful for posting an irrelevant flame on the USA. I had the courage to defend myself based on my opinion and if I took a jab at the German poster who flamed me, then it was well deserved for the jabs he took at Americans and our country (which by the way he seemed to have confused in his anti-American diatribe).
I am ashamed by the poor quality of moderation on this serious thread. It makes me rethink wasting my time trying to moderate seriously and post seriously when I'm not moderating.
This is not flamebait. This is an honest question about the appropriateness of government involvement in a decision like this about what relevance the beliefs or organizational associations of a person have to software they create. If the CEO was the member of the Aryan Nation, my questions would persist.
And I guess that's how they saw Judaism 50 years ago. I know they were wrong then. Maybe they're right now. But it's tough to go through religions, cults, organizations, groups, and throw em all into a bin that says "good" or "neutral" or "evil". That's why foreign policy and economic policy doesn't bother to use such categorizations. They use "ally" or "enemy" or "neutral". These are made based on political structure and intergovernmental relations, not based on ethical judgements. Governments do a notoriously bad job at making moral decisions or categorizations.
Oh please, get your own head out of your self-righteous German ass. I didn't say the US is blameless nor do I represent the US. I merely pointed out that it creates the appearance of wrongdoing for a government to perform an action like this. I don't care that CoS is a cult and not a religion. It's an organization, it's for-profit and it does bad things. The point is that the German government is judging software based on the affiliation of a person who was involved in its creation.
PLEASE note, asshole, that I never said the current German government is Nazi-like. I merely said that if you were to transpose the statement I quoted and replace the word "Scientologist" with "Jew" it looks fucking identical to statements that might have been made by the Nazi regime. This is a fact, but it doesn't mean that the current German regime is comparable to Nazi regime. I am just trying to figure out where you draw the line on acceptable government intervention.
My point was merely to provoke thought on what the government's role is restricting usage or import of software based on who produced it. I would never use software produced by a Nazi. But I don't want my government banning software based on WHO produced it without consideration of the software's content.
To understand the german position better: CoS has sent private dicks after german politicians. the CoS (at least in Germany) seems to be more like a mafia organisation trying to influence politics on their behalf. in the US the CoS has already succeeded: Germany was pressed by US politicians to revise their CoS policy.
advise to you, AC: get outta there!
Scientology vs the Net
Scientology's lies
Operation Clambake
Sure all of these sites are opinionated and maybe even slightly propogandish, but they all have links to court cases, documents and accounts. And these are just the first three non-scientology sites found by a quick search on Google. The AC just didn't want to have to do your homework for you.
W
I've had some dealings with the Church. I generally take what I consider useful but keep distant the rest of my time. I no more want to be a regular there than I'd want to be a regular at any church of any religion... it's just not for me. I find Scientologists in general to be pretty zealous about their beliefs, and I don't see anything wrong with it; plenty of people are zealous about their faith. I'm not zealous about it, but if people ask me about it, I give my honest opinion, and I have no trouble relating my experiences.
A lot of people like to talk trash about Scientology, without actually looking for themselves. They see and hear people trashing it but never take into consideration that those people might be lying for their OWN reasons. Proponents of Dianetics (which is the predecessor of Scientology and which no one claims is religious) and Psychiatry have locked horns on numerous occasions because they are competing for the same audience. They both have the same goals but believe in pursuing these goals in radically different ways. Psychiatry uses a combination of therapy and drugs to help ease the symptoms of a mental illness. Dianetics seeks to expose the root cause of the mental illness, allowing it to be dealt with and eradicated; drugs are never used, and in fact, the person receiving Dianetics is required to be fully awake during each session.
Many people have said that Scientology is responsible for crimes, such as murder. I don't know about that. I've never seen any evidence of it. But even if it has happened, that doesn't do anything to distinguish Scientology from any other church. Several hundred years ago, there were these wars called the Crusades in which Christians travelled en masse to convert as many people as possible and slay all who opposed them. It is quite possible that there are people with screws loose in Scientology, as with any other religion - but it's not fair to point at them and proclaim that they are a fair representation of the whole Scientologist population, especially when it implies that other religions don't have such people in them. I do know for a fact that Psychiatry is guilty of heinous crimes such as jamming an icepick through someone's skull and destroying portions of the brain (the transorbital lobotomy) and of strapping people down and sending electric shocks through them (electroconvulsive therapy, or ECT). They have been known to achieve similar effects with psychoactive drugs. Fortunately, lobotomy is illegal now.
Now, don't get me wrong, if you want someone to send doses of voltage through your body strong enough to kill your brain cells en masse, then by all means, go ahead. But don't piss on my parade if I think it's better to address a mental woe by addressing the problem at its root and allowing the mind to return to normal on its own. If you want to DELIBERATELY damage portions of your brain, then by all means, go ahead.
The fact of the matter is that you can walk into any grocery store and buy a copy of the Dianetics paperback for $6 or $7. Then you can take it home and read it, and have a friend read it, and the two of you can do Dianetics sessions on each other. You can, in fact, do all of this without ever setting foot in a Scientology organization or even talking to a Scientologist.
I want to have the freedom to investigate any religion I want, and to decide for myself whether or not it's for me. I don't need any government telling me what to believe and what not to believe. You can believe whatever you want about Dianetics and/or Scientology, but by accepting other people's evaluations verbatim, you really haven't done yourself any favors.
Right, so why not have MS review it and find out the truth, either way?
There are plenty of hystericals on Slashdot. They get moderator privileges, and they abuse them, amplifying what they agree with and modding down what they disagree with, even if it doesn't deserve to be. That is the caveat to this moderation system. I don't know that there is a better way of doing it though.
That did not go unnoticed! What we call the "War On Drugs" is responsible for the fact that more than HALF of the people in U.S. prisons today are there because they used drugs. Not because they sold them, but just for posession/use. You'd think it would be better to rely on education and rehab programs, but the fascists behind the "war" are so concerned about what people do in the privacy of their own homes that they don't care that they are ruining the lives of people because they like to smoke a good bowl every now and then. I don't ever plan on using drugs but I think that this silly "war" is a waste of human lives.
Yeah... well I guess we ought to believe everything we read on xemu.com, right? After all, it's on the Internet, and all mud-slinging on the Internet is always based on facts and doesn't need to be verified.
"Anyways German courts have decided Scientology is not a religion. I tend to agree."
"And why should a government or a court (or you) ever be in a position to decide what is a religion? Why do they need government recognition at all? They can get their tax breaks by being a nonprofit organization. Schools and the military can allow time for anyone who wants to pray."
No. In Germany being recognized as a church means big benefits (mainly taxwise), so it's actually useful to try and be recognized.
The courts don't tell you what to believe in, but they have to decide if something fits into society and is actually religion-like to decide whether this cult is worth to be supported by the government.
-Legion
OT VIII, eh? Well, this is what clams learn at OT III:
Not much of a writer, was he? But I digress; not only is Craig Jensen still a $cientologist after being exposed to this tripe, but he's OT VIII now! Would you trust a company whose leader was so obviously mentally unstable as to believe Hubbard's crap? I wouldn't.
-Legion
It's an organisation which even uses illegal means to reach its well-defined goals.
Just like the U.S. government wouldn't use a disk defragger programmed by a Hamas member, the german government refuses to use Scientology software.
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of working in Germany.
I used to work for a software company in Germany. One time, just before a fair, their competitors started a rumor that the company was run by CoS. It almost put the company out of business, even tho the rumor had no truth in it. Trying to prove you're not something is not so easy...
.sig available on 'Need To Know' basis only!
Colonel?? If you mean the nice bloke with the little black moustache, he was a corporal.
I can't wait untill the CoS finds out about this thread and bombards it with their propaganda.
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
On the other hand it might also prove as good idea how to fight MSFT in Europe... if this will go through, someone will go and prove that Bill himself is scientologist or whatever :)
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
I am disgusted at your comparison between this and previous horrible mistreatment of the Jews. In what way is that relevant?
Continuing with this sort of nazi-references every time anything German is mentioned or seriously implying that Germans or the German government are antisemitic is prejudiced (even if it is ridiculous as well) crap. Try to think about what you are implying. Do you know just how sensitive this can be to many Germans today?
Not only many americans habitually do this, but englishmen as well. Germany has super-strong laws regarding antisemitism and nazism and has suffered through years of collective guilt. Compared to the US and England German post-war foreign policy has been examplatory peaceful. Common Germans today have no responsibility for actions taken by their parents and grandparents. They do in no way deserve this prejudice.
And no, i'm not German.
Unfortunately it is completely true.
In Swedens constitution there is a law stating that every single document that the government issues or receives must be (made) available to the public (a truly great law, imo). A Swedish civil-rights advocate, Zenon Parnoussis, filed several secret CoS OT-level documents to the Swedish parliament to expose the idiocy of the cult of Scientology. The documents were thus available to read at the parliament.
Since the 'church' of scientology strongly witholds the copyright of exactly everything they do they sued the Parliament for copyright infringement. But get this - Swedish scientologers also actually infiltrated the Parliament. They took turns at the front desk occupying all copies of the OT-papers to prevent people (ie media) from reading them. I went there to read them myself and managed to get hold of a copy that the receptionist had hidden from the CoSers (he recognized i wasn't a Scientologist). There were several CoSers sitting there pretending to read looking really disturbed. The OTs themselves were completely insane writings.
All of this was big news in Sweden.
Moreover, in the US, CoS produced ridiculous (complete jokes) propaganda commercials trying to smear the entire coutry of Sweden, because of this. They got one of their members, a congressman, to threaten the Swedish government. Certainly, if it had been Windows source-code or something submitting it to parliament should not justify rendering the documents public. But here we were talking about a crazy cult movement that calls itself a church and its message one of universal truth. How can such religous teachings not be allowed public?
This law is part of Swedens constitution, it is one of the oldest laws Sweden has and extremly highly regarded. It should have precedence over any other regulation.
Yet, quietly when the buzz had settled down - half a year later - the OT-papers were retracted and the constitutionsl law amended.
US congressmen are obviuosly not powerless. For other countries it can be difficult to understand just who has what power and what national policy is when it comes to officials on that level. The Swedish government also sucks, obviously, they didn't _have_ to do this. But all we know about is that letter, of what else has been said we don't know.
I think you might become very, very surpised if you learn what your government is really doing abroad and the influence they can have. And I don't mean surprised in a good way.
The original story on c't can be found here, mentioning the ongoing legal problems in Germany as well as the Hamburg opening. Executive Software is a member of the World Institute of Scientology Enterprises. Of course they believe that their way is the best: what group doesn't? The group's methods allow only members who follow their business philosophy, which is based on what they called Hubbard's 'religious' texts. Their purpose is to spread the use of their business practices/religious beliefs; hence their licensing of WISE consultants, who must be approved by the organization.
The homepage of their CEO says about as much; that his method of practicing business is to incorporate Scientology. Thus, anyone working for him must also use the same beliefs and methods.
Does this satisfy? Theres also this place, but I recognize a serious logical flaw in taking your evidence from a vehemently anti-scientologist source; let them hang themselves by their own words.
"Oh Bother", said the Borg, "We've assimilated Pooh."
I'd be much more wary of an OS developed by a software company whose CEO is a BASIC programmer. Complaining that the defrag tool was written by a Clam is like ordering a bowl of soup, being served a bowl of cold piss, and then complaining that the piss has a fly in it. What's the difference between Microsoft and CoS? One is a cult of mindless drones led by a maniacal dictator who will stoop to even the lowest, most vile means to coerce their enemies into submission, and the other is the CoS.
</mandatory MS bashing>
(Before you start flaming me, let me say that I do use NT (4 and 5) in addition to UNIX systems. It's not all that bad. But when you consider the almost infinite resources that Microsoft has available, don't you expect something more for $300?)
---------///----------
All generalizations are false.
--
I like to watch.
How does Microsoft rate on that power scale? It doesn't. Millions of people are forced to use bad software ... again, so what? I'd rather that than be in a concentration camp. If you still think Microsoft is "super powerful", in the same league as the Nazis, go read some
history books.
The real Captain Avatar is a fictional character, so I suppose he doesn't mind if I impersonate him.
Um, yeah. Microsoft are on a par with the Nazis. That is so offensive and historically bogus I don't even know where to begin with that. Only a highly superficial reading of history could sustain such an opinion.
The whole thing breaks down (again) to choice. German law is very very hot on freedom of religous choice. They've forced MS to respect that freedom, even over a very very minor point, which is a good thing.
What does religious freedom have to do with a friggin' disk defragmenter? How does it impinge on my religious freedom if I am "forced" to use a software tool written by a Scientologist's firm? It could have been written by a Christian or a Muslim or an atheist - so what? Does using the Win2k defrag tool surreptitiously turn me into a Scientologist? It's just a piece of SOFTWARE.
The real Captain Avatar is a fictional character, so I suppose he doesn't mind if I impersonate him.
And I'll repeat once more: it's not about reining in Microsoft's rampant monopoly abuses at all, it's about Germany's long-standing, well-documented and possibly even well-founded hang-up over Scientology. So the comparison should be between Scientology and the Nazis. Make of that what you will ...
The real Captain Avatar is a fictional character, so I suppose he doesn't mind if I impersonate him.
Is anyone else bothered by the apparent fact that, when allegations of security lapses come up, neither side thinks to actually -look- at the code? My feelings on MS and CoS notwithstanding, the obvious solution should have been to whip out the code and say, "Here, look for yourselves. No holes. Good secure code." And that should have been the end of it.
Why is it acceptable to make decisions like this based on the personalities of the people involved? Nobody would say, "I trust NT security because Bill Gates is " or something like that. It's nuts!
I guess what I'm trying to say is that MS was wrong to give instructions for taking defrag out. Either it's safe, and the Germans can play bash-the-Scientologist elsewhere, or it's not safe, and should be either stripped out of Windows entirely or at least patched. This is that kind of crap that you get when marketing and PR people make technical decisions.
And of course, it's because this is coming from the German government that this is an issue, correct? It's just like them Germans to discriminate!
Seriously, I think your analogy is highly flawed. The difference is that being Jewish is a matter of birth (the Jewishness that the Nazis targeted was racial, not religious) but to be a Scientologist, you make a conscious, willed decision to sign contracts fully turning over your assets and your labor to an international organization whose stated goal is to subvert world governments to itself and has already been caught in criminal acts, ordered at the highest levels, towards that goal -- including forging correspondence from the Minister of Defense of Norway; espionage against the Ontario Attorney-General's Ministry, the Ontario Provincial Police and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police; and breaking and entering and theft of documents against the U.S. Department of Justice, Department of Defense, and Internal Revenue Service. Were these acts of the individuals involved (which is what the CoS claims) or of Scientology? I think the fact that Mary Sue Hubbard -- wife of L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology's founder -- was among the 11 Scientologists sent to prison for the infiltration of U.S. government agencies really answers that question sufficiently.
I'm sorry, but it really makes no sense to say, "These people are members of a criminal cult which is willing to burglarize the premises of government agencies around the globe in order to get its way -- but you'd have to be paranoid to think that software written by them could be a security problem!" It's even more ludicrous -- and offensive -- to suggest that the government of Germany cannot take any action against the criminal organization of Scientology because Scientology is pretending to be a religion; that taking protective action against a so-called religion whose stated goal is to subvert your nation is too much like persecuting people on the basis of their race.
If people are to respect the law, perhaps the law should begin by respecting the people.
The public record is there; I notice that you don't name a single point which you think can't be verified.
If people are to respect the law, perhaps the law should begin by respecting the people.
If you use windows, then you might reason like this: They write a lot of software, a lot of people use it, I guess there is not a NSA backdoor...
And that is a valid proposition, maybe M$ and CO$ are both evil. There is a marked difference there ;-)
Of course, the true solutions to follow by any non-american goverment would be to insist on open-source software.
Sander.
Windows is a lot less secure than linux or bsd. You can't just look at the source code to find potential vulnerabilities to report to the maintainers. There is no security from obscurity.
Will I retire or break 10K?
AC botched the link to goatse.cx. Here's a working link to the OpenBSD install instructions.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Will I retire or break 10K?
maybe because the CEO can have a little bit more influence than just "anyone in the company?"
xxx straight edge xxx
oh please, if thats the best you can do try another hobby instead of being a wannabe troll
The Germans actually demanded to get the source for a security audit, otherwise they wouldn't buy win2k. But Microsoft didn't want them to look at their source. So M$ decided to solve the problem by just letting them remove the tool.
I used to work for the Pharma company in question. In fact I supported the lab were prozac was pieced together. (I am not aware of the woman that you are refering to)! Here is an interesting note: The Pharma company in question does not use disk keeper! Seems that there is a "handshake" agreement between CoS and the Pharma company. We purchase thousand of $ worth of the software and then had to throw it out. The whole thing was a bit creepy.
Captain Ober
It is listed as "non-standard" software. In other words: IT does not load or support it.
Captain Ober
> Wasn't religious intolerance what allowed 7 million Jews and 6 million Catholics/blacks/invalids etc. to perish
No, it was a combination cultural anti-semitism and the need to finance the Whermacht. Very few Catholics died, the stance of the Catholic church was to put self-preservation above the defense of the Jews/Communists/Invalids/Others.
between the greater and lesser infinities sleep the dreams undreamt
Mircosoft Engineers doing a code security audit ... now that is funny.
between the greater and lesser infinities sleep the dreams undreamt
people will actually be upset
I shouldn't think many people would be upset about missing the steaming pile of crap that was MI2
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because it's a very tough one to call. You're a government and you have a number of "dubious" organisations operating in your jurisdiction. Which ones do you decide are bad? Which are good? 50 years ago they called it wrong (Jews = Bad, Nazi = Good), now they've "learnt" and anything new that has any kind mind control component and/ or power gets binned (probably rightly) as "bad", but now they are in danger of going the other way.
They are in a loose - loose situation. If they let CoS carry on, they're accused of appeasment (that's not the right word, but I can't think of the right one at the moment, I hope you get the meaning), if they stamp on it it's "religious intolerance". Only the future will reveal the "right" course.
In 50 years time will we all be spending dinner parties discussing what would have happened if someone had offed L Ron, before he started brain washing for profit?
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which is a lot worse than it may seem. Everyone and their dog is a registered charity around here, to be refused they must be fantastically dodgy.
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I think it was Hubbard and Campbell, the famous editor/publisher. And I also believe it is true.
Church of Scientology: the only religion ever started on a bet
Now that you mention that me and some friends have been thinking about starting our own religion, mmm what will it be based on? "Pay us money, be faithful and we will grant for you that windows will run stable?" mmm.
How every version of MICROS~1 Windows(TM) comes to exist.
Do the following really mean anything? SCSA MCP CCSA CCNA
--I'm not actually after an answer!
Well, that's exactly what this case is all about: choice. If you want to use Win2k, you get the defragmentation program, if you like it or not. The german government wants to use Win2k (no comment about this), but they don't want to use software written by a company, that is effectively ruled by Scientology. So they "discussed" that with MS, and now MS offeres them the choice to de-install the defrag-program.
What's the problem with that? It's not like the program gets wiped out of all Win2k-distributions in germany. If you want to use it, use it. German government doesn't want to...
The german government is not forbidding individuals to use the software, it is forbidding the government to use the software. In the same way, the US government forbids the government to use software written outside the US, because it is seen as a potential security hazard.
That makes sense if virtually everything on your box is exectuables or flat data files.
However, if you have a substantial chunk of database-like files (this could be anything from the Windows Registry to Outlook PST files to Lotus Notes files), you are going to have some fragmentation due to background indexing and so on.
My datapoint is that after defraging my drives (all NTFS on SCSI), I couldn't tell the difference at all.
When I hear the word 'innovation', I reach for my pistol.
I am an Agnostic, and to me, all "religions" are the same and have no apparant use. Scientology serves the same purpose as Catholicism by keeping its users happy.
"Religion is the opiate of the masses"
It doesn't matter which religion.
Angleworm
(first running, then screaming)
I am a man, not a toy.
Whilst my opinion of Scientology is that it is "Bunkum and Tosh", this kind of religious discrimination is groundless. Not every scientologist is a money grabbing megalomaniac. It would be very hard to do business if everybody suspected the software of having alterior motives.
Angleworm
(a man, not a toy)
I am a man, not a toy.
original story from c't
ps. a lot of this has to do with abuse the internet, which earned them a lot of infamity in the internet culture, and pretty much explains why a scientology software CEO is seen by German authorities as a particular threat.
-- look, cheese ahoy!
"Therefore an uncertainty remains though it is relativized by the way of integration into Windows 2000: The defragmentation only runs by request of the administrator or user. Additionally there are two alternatives, among others at [1]. But even there the source code is currently missing.
Microsoft's advice to simply delete the defragmentation software if in doubt borders on deceit. Following that advice in the current pre-releases activates a component called System File Protection (SFP). It immediately restores the files in question as soon as they have vanished from the Explorer by using a cached copy."
---
the problem with teens is they're looking for certainties
Hollywood, Television, has become the dream machine. We need to take that back; each of us is a Dream Machine
You mean to say that a money-grubbing scam for redistributing wealth upwards (Scientology) sent members undercover to secure their assets against the government, which only wants your money for Theologically Pure Reasons!!! Land sakes alive!
Those evil scientologists taking millions from gullible fools must be made to properly respect our godly, noble IRS which generously accepts my "offering" of 30%+ of my already miniscule income!!
When will these religious nuts understand that what they do is "fraud" -- not to be confused with "taxation" which is what our Infallible Holy Guvmint does?
---
the problem with teens is they're looking for certainties
Hollywood, Television, has become the dream machine. We need to take that back; each of us is a Dream Machine
-----[
"It would seem to be that certain individuals in Germany do have some problems with certain religions."
(...)
Some Scientologists have accused Germany of displaying the religious intolerance of the Nazi regime in taking action against their organization.
]-----
Whoa! Someone here has some serious misconceptions! They make it sound like their on par with all the other worldly religions like Christianity, Islam and so on. Uh, oh, the grand religion of Scientology, its countelss deeply spiritual followers and its $5 million admission fee! Where do I sign up?
Also, while I'm sure that both German Scientologists feel very deprived and discriminated against at this very moment, that's a far cry from a Nazi regime. It's not like they lined them up against the wall and shot them or anything. It's just rich kids whining 'cause someone dared slap them on the wrist.
On a slightly (just slightly) less serious note, the only thing that separates Scientology from any other cult is the fact that they target the rich and [insert your own IQ-defining adjectives here] people. If they weren't so bloody rich, all that would remain of the Scientologists today would be a shot-up wooden shack in the middle of nowhere with "FBI wuz here" carved into the front door.
Have you hugged a Scientologist today?
----------
Even as you read this, your pants are strangling your loins! Aaa!
Yes. A defrag program has access to ALL the files, and must be run with superuser privileges - sounds like a very good place to put backdoors.
I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet -Stanislaw Lem
Remove IE from Win98
--I assume full responsibility for my actions, except the ones that are someone else's fault.
Or perhaps you just don't care enough to know what you really have... We do and perhaps that's why everyone thinks we were all right-wing sickos. We actually know and tell there's a problem.
Fight hunger. Filet a politician and send him to a 3rd world country of your choice.
- Hitler was from Austria (well, it's off topic, but I think it's funny to note that - in the end - Austria was the origin of two World Wars)
- Hitler's dead.
- Germany != Deutsches Reich
Actually, we're even trying to get rid of some right-wing f(r)actions over here. If we did follow common US policy, we sure as hell wouldn't.Another thing: the jewish (and christian), buddhistic, whatsoever belief isn't founded on brainwashing. Well, OK, perhaps it is a little, but it's not in the charter. CoS on the other hand is brainwashing and they constantly failed to prove there are any other aspects in their "belief".
A little advice for free: drink less coffee.
cat /dev/random > /proc/kmem
Fight hunger. Filet a politician and send him to a 3rd world country of your choice.
Well Suppose they exploit the very carefulness we gathered from Halocaust and it's victims. How to you oppose it? How do you oppose Microsoft? When it is everywhere, you have to know it, otherwise you don't have a job. Microsoft was using aggresive tactics that are akin to CoS tactics. The wrong thing here, where one was concentrating on businness world, this one concentrates on exploiting people. In businness world we call it tough luck, but when your belifs are invalidated and announced wrong, you shall burn on the cross of retribution, don't you think that is wrong. CoS way of dealing with things mixes up with people such as designating themselves as religion. From there one everyone starts to argue, while CoS takes over brain maket! Wasn't that is the case is MS? Everyone was bickering and they just went in and took over. For CoS not to do damage to fabric of out society we have to take it's powers away, before it gains a momentum, like microsoft did. -- :wq
I wonder if any code in IE was ever written by a Scientologist. If so, maybe Germany can get instructions to remove that. Too bad doing that would destroy their anti-trust defense
Exactly!
Challenge - name ONE major religion which has NOT had many atrocities (sp?) carried out in its name (with the exception of Wicca. And no, Bhuddism doesn't count as that is a philosohpy, not a religion per se).
People should not be afraid of their governments - Governments should be afraid of their people.
I mean, how do the Germans know for certain that none of the software they use has been (even in part) written by someone who is involved in Scientology?
Are they now going to demand to know the "religious" (and I use that term in its loosest sence where scientology os concerned) inclinations of everybody involved with every company connected to any piece of software they use?
Sorry, as much as I dislike scientology and all the abuses that it stands for, I don't see the logic in this particular course of action.
People should not be afraid of their governments - Governments should be afraid of their people.
I'm sure the church of scientology would call Germany's stance "religious intolerence" but that's their game, isn't it? In fact this action is after a looong invetsigation into the CoS, which has been found clearly on the wrong side of the law. Modern Germany has Christians of all ilk, many many Muslims from immigration and the refugee crisis, athiests, pagans no doubt, and a remaining small Jewish population, whose religious beliefs and human rights are fully protected. But Germany has decided that the CoS is a cyncical cult and ought to be suppressed. Presumably if CoS restricted itself to religious practices, then there wouldn't be a problem. Render unto Ceaser all that is Ceasers.
--
Oh, by the way, Has anyone noticed this trend to qualify religions? Bush doesn't recognise some beliefs as religions - therefore they don't get freedom of religious choice. Nice.
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
Dude, I loved that game!
(heh heh heh)
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
He just said that MS was a large super powerful organisation (any company with that much money has to be) which uses it's power to promote it's point of view.
Microsoft does that. It doesn't share many views with the Nazis, but then the post didn't say that.
Gaaaaah, I've read the books and you're right. How could I have been so blind?
Mouldy bread is bad.
Genocide is bad.
Mouldy bread is as bad as genocide.
It's so clear to me now.
p.s. I am aware you never said mouldy bread was as bad as genocide, so there's no need to point that out.
i am a little bit disturbed, if people compare not using a questionable product in a government with burning books and imprisoning jews in workcamps.
if you would live in germany (like i do) and wont give a fuck about this discussion, noone forces you to NOT use this software.
despite this, scientology is closely investigated by the german agencies for national security (Verfassungsschutz). so the german government not just *feels* scientology is bad, they have a pretty clear view of what scientology is and wants at least compared to most of the /. posters, me included !
... so what's the difference between this and virtually all other religions? (western religions, at least...)
Quoth the zombie, braaaaaaaains
From the site that you linked to:
That sounds reasonable to me. I have reached that stage without the help of the CoS
"Me and my girl named bimbo . . . limbo . . . spam" - Captain Beefheart.
To remove more software written by fanatics with a propensity for leaving backdoors, follow these instructions. While not perfect either, the resulting installation and configuration has at least been peer reviewed and is widely used on high-security Internet servers everywhere.
I am not German, don't you people think that the Germans have the right to decide from who they want to buy software from? Are we going to shove down the "freedom of religion' doctrine down their throat? I applaud Microsoft for being resposive to their customers concern. As for the ExeSoft CEO, I am sure he can go sell his software somewhere else. With his top internation award product, he should not have any problems. Should he?
--
well, being german myself i don't think that's too funny. the issue about the defrag tool has not been raised so much for security reasons, but for political ones. scientology, while not illegal, has certain aspects that are contrary to how most people here interpret the human rights.
a lot of companies here do not offer jobs to scientologists. that's because the sect rewards people getting into influential positions in their jobs... i certainly don't know why, but i can make wild guesses.
the security hole with the win2k defrag tool exists only in potentia. imagine having someone you can trust to do their job at least partly for the sect they are a member of to have rather unrestricted access to your (secure) system.
of course germans may be a little paranoid as concerns scientology - on the other hand, _one_ organized, well-structured mob out for world domination has been enough.
oh man.. this is low. what has religion got to do with anything here? how many developers at microsoft are athiests or heck.. *jew*.. or even dont have a religion at all? maybe some kiddy programmer checks the username against a list of well known german military ranks (hitler et al) and upon finding it executes a swift "format c:\ /q /u"?
if you dont like it, choose another product. choose life, choose linux.
Very good FFFish...you may recognize me from the Katz "Sad and ugly" thread. In this case I applaud your links to many sources of good information (I found many of the same myself while "researching")
Scary bunch aren't they....? Kind of amusing they've named Germany as their Number 1 enemy, it seems they may have a somewhat overinflated opinion of themselves...wait...Yup, it's a religion alright---Most Definitely not a Karma Whore---
No, religious intolerance had nothing to do with it. Hitler regarded Jews, retarded people, etc.. to be genetically inferior to "Aryans", and therefore had to be exterminated to avoid dragging the rest of humanity down with them. Jews were also singled out because of a perceived "conspiracy" to control the world. There is an interesting parallel in L Rons writings that would exterminate everyone level 2 and under. Pot calling the kettle black eh?
BTW, I may be mistaken but I believe your numbers might be a bit inflated, IIRC it was 6 or 7 million *total*, only 2 or 3 million of which were Jews.---Most Definitely not a Karma Whore---
Harmless !!?! I suggest your read up a few posts and follow FFFish's links. Just in case that's to difficult try this one... Scientology
You admit you know nothing yet insist that they're harmless? Damn Sheeple...Find me One religion that hasn't committed atrocities in the name of "God"(whoever that might be to them) and I'll eat my CPU.
---Most Definitely not a Karma Whore---
That's all I really have to say. Making all that fuss over a piece of software just because of the design company CEO's religious affiliation? Quite childish, indeed. It also leaves one wide open for a discrimination lawsuit. Besides... this sounds like the sort of thing a certain now-dead Austrian ex-corporal would have pulled back in the bad old days. My advice to the people who made that decision: grow up.
- White Knight of the Order of Mihoshi Enthusiasts
Hey, check out http://www.fadetoblack.com for a funny comparison of COS's cosmology with Dr. Seuss's. Also read correspondence between them and COS's lawyers.
removing IE is possible - third parties hav utilities to do it; however, most people don't want to remove - it's the best browser there is ATM
offtopic:
on technet they provide step-by-step instructions for how to remove OE from w2k - so anyone concerned about unwanted OE can remove it easily.
Please, I would like to know what parts of the Linux kernel you have written, so I can audit them by hand, and possibly replace them with something else.
Windows 2000: Designed for the Internet. The Internet: Designed for UNIX.
Oh yeah, by "audit" I mean "code audit" and not "drive to suicide".
Windows 2000: Designed for the Internet. The Internet: Designed for UNIX.
Not defragmenting an NTFS partition is a sure-fire cause of performance problems on a Win2k box. It's very unfortunate, though, because without the "real" version of Diskeeper, there is no way for the _average_ user to automate this. See my post further down the page for info on how to get around this. It's not toooo hard but not exactly nice and clean either.
I defragment my Win2k box every night. When you first start defragmenting an NTFS partition that has never been defragmented, you are going to have to run the defrag util multiple times to get it up-to-snuff. Keep running it until it the defragmenter finishes its work a few seconds after you start it.
I figure I'd better follow it my whining post, 'cause it's going to make it onto the +3 message lists, without benefit of the followup posts that didn't get rated up, and should have.
So ATTENTION, PEOPLE WHO WEREN'T PAYING ATTENTION: it turns out that karma has been capped at 50 points. It isn't a Taco bitchslap, it's a way of dealing -- I presume -- with karma-whoring. It's not a conspiracy! [grin]
I think it's safe to say that a lot of us ignored the karma business. Back when it first kicked in, it took me a few weeks to clue in that the suddenly weird +2 posting behaviour was related to the new-fangled plus-whatever karma score of mine. Sure, call me clueless; the whole thing just wasn't important.
Guess I'll go read some slashFAQs and find out what the new rules are...
--
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
> The "democratic" government of Germany is traveling down a well-trodden path of state
> persecution of officially designated "hate groups" (that is, groups which the government
> says we should hate).
Kind of like the Communist Party in the USA, right? Different names, same game. I don't suppose you put quotes around American democracy?
> That is definitely a country that doesn't believe in freedom of speech.
> I'm glad I don't live there. Sheesh.
It's always good to get a laugh from the emotionally simple. I'm sure you're glad you live (most likely?) in the US, a country which certainly gives you all the necessary freedoms of speech so that you don't question the ones you don't get. While we could sit down and do a line item listing of freedoms of speech you DON'T enjoy in the US, whether legally or de facto, what would be the fun in that? Just go join your local Communist Party chapter instead.
> I am an Agnostic, and to me, all "religions" are the same and have no apparant use.
There is a big difference between a religion and a cult: you're usually born into a religion and it might mean nothing to you personally, even if your particular religion might have evil ulterior motives. You usually join a cult yourself because of personal convictions, not because your parents were members (most cults don't last long enough for inter-generational hand-off). So if you discriminate against a religion, you are including many individuals without strong convictions, but when you discriminate against a cult you are dealing with individuals strongly focused on a particular idea.
So even as a religious pragmatist I have to say that it is important to discriminate between religions and cults (pun fully intended).
> I mentally replace "Scientologist" with "Jew" and I see something that could
> have happened 50 years ago [...]
Sure, or replace "Scientologist" with "National Socialist", which would be more in the spirit of what the German government is trying to achieve here. Had this been done in the 1920's the world might have never experienced the evil that was the Third Reich (and the US might have never been what they are now). Before you jump and reply that while the intention is noble it proves that Germany is lacking in free speech and democracy, replace "Germany" with "USA" and "Church of Scientology" with "Communist Party". That should clear up any misconceptions you might have about freedom of speech in your (and currently my) country.
> So was Judaism. Your point?
No it wasn't, not particularly. You were persecuted for Jewish blood and Jewish ancestry, not for Jewish beliefs. If you were a true-blooded Aryan of Jewish belief, your could rescind your beliefs and live. If you were of Jewish ancestry, it didn't matter how agnostic or atheist you were, you couldn't disavow your genetic heritage. That was one of the points made by many Jews later on: if only they could have given up their faith and beliefs to save their lives, they would have. But they couldn't, because the Nazis despised not their ideas but who they were.
> It was just the wording of it all that disturbed me - is it appropriate, despite or
> because of past historical events, for a government to try to ban software or books or
> products because the member of a group that commits admittedly evil acts was involved in a
> company that produced them.
Don't they teach about McCarthyism at Harvard? It amused me that it fits your objections to the letter: goverment=US, books or products=movies and scripts, group=communist party, company=Hollywood. Selective memory is a dangerous thing.
> I don't believe it makes sense to wage war against economic or commercial products with a
> tenuous link to the organization.... but maybe that's because I'm an American and I worship free trade.
Amen to that. You should cc: Fidel on that, he might send you a few boxes of Cubans for being such an advocate.
> you would clearly understand that I am not flaming the German nation [...]
> get your own head out of your self-righteous German ass [...]
These two statements present somewhat of a semantic conflict. From reading most of your posts in this thread I can detect a definite anti-German sentiment simmering under the surface. Which is fine, but don't pretend otherwise when people call you on it.
I have tried hard to counter you on a point-by-point basis, but in retrospect that might have been pointless (:-) since you're stuck on your particular notion of replacing "Scientologist" with "Jew" even when given more plausible and factually backed alternatives.
> I never said the current German government is Nazi-like
Not verbatim, but you've implied it repeatedly with sledgehammer subtlety. Kind of like asking me again and again "hmm, I wonder, what if I slammed these scissors into your eyes? Not that I would, but what if?" After about the third such question I might put on my coke bottle glasses, just in case.
> I would never use software produced by a Nazi.
How would you know? The About... dialog doesn't have to sport smartly animated GIF swastikas, you know. You might have already been assimilated for all you know.
> But I don't want my government banning software based on WHO produced it without consideration of
> the software's content.
I guess that would be completely unlike the US government banning the export of encryption software, or its use by "rogue nations." But I guess your reply to that would also be that "[You] didn't say the US is blameless nor do [you] represent the US."
> So my point is the "stuff" isn't coming from "the US". I am not "the US". I am an
> individual who sees unfortunate things come out both the US and Germany.
I can see your lips move, but they don't match your words. Trouble is, when it suits your moral mood you ride high on American righteousness and mention many of America's perceived virtues as your very own moral code. When the shit hits the fan, you leave the room. You've got to take the good with the bad, buddy.
Nobody is denying Germany's legacy with its Jewish members, least of all those of us of German extraction or nationality. It treated some of its most productive citizens the worst, and in the process made America what it is today. Still, as an American I would be careful to point a finger too long at Germany, since over the course of its history the US have easily committed atrocities on the same level. Germany just compressed them into twelve years. There are other countries (and their citizens) more suitable than the US to take the moral high ground above Germany. Yet as an American Jew you carry a certain exemption, so you may carry on, and I will bow my head. And I mean that sincerely.
I was just shocked by the casualness with which most posters seemed to accept banning or mucking around with the sale of software that involved an individual associated with a "bad" organization.
Well, as someone else mentioned in this thread, it is CoS doctrine that laws do not apply to Scientologists and that members are encouraged to use unlawful measures to hurt the CoS' enemies, especially intelligence operations and infiltration which is part of upper-level Scientolgy training (no kidding).
Also, a few years ago, the software company in question itself absolutely denied any support to a medical corporation that manufactures a psycho-drug, for religious reasons. (The CoS believes that Psychology and Psychiatry are both evil and that there is a hidden conspiracy of psychologists running the world. Reading some of Hubbards ramblings, you'll realize that Psychologists are the Jews of Scientology.)
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Well, I think that one of the things that the German governmen wanted was to see the source of the software in question.
So, yes, this is only the question of "closed-source software from a company we better not trust".
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It's Scientology doctrine that all evil in the world is caused by Psychiatrists. That previous link came from the CoS operated lobby group Citizen Commission on Human Rights. Visit their homepage and take some time to appreciate the whole wackyness there, then you'll better understand the following article:
-----------------------------------------------
DISKEEPER USER STUNNED BY DENIAL OF TECH SUPPORT
Nancy Kelly, Digital News. Feb 4, 1991
Ciba-Geigy was refused technical support for its disk defragmenter after the supplier, Executive Software Inc., learned that the Swiss chemical company made Ritalin, a drug sometimes prescribed for hyperactive children.
Executive Software, maker of the dominant disk defragmenter for the VAX, Diskepper, objects to the production of Ritalin as a drug that is prescribed by psychiatrists. The drug has provoked controversy based upon some studies that document several cases of suicides among young adolescents who had been given the drug as children. The Physicians' Desk Reference indicates that the side effects of Ritalin withdrawal include paranoia with thoughts of
suicide.
The Glendale, Calif. software firm has a longstanding policy against selling its products to psychiatrists and psychiatric institutions. On Jan. 9 the firm's board of directors voted to expand that policy to include psychiatric drug manufacturers, after a company employee brought it to President Craig Jensen's attention that the makers of Ritalin had purchased a copy of Diskeeper.
"Ciba-Geigy ranks with the scum of the earth in my opinion," said Jensen.
"The primary effect of Ritalin is suicide. When some of our employees heard we sold our software to them, I agreed to cancel that license, if necessary, and refuse to do business with drug manufacturers in the future."
The U.S.-based Ciba-Geigy MIS manager who bought Diskeeper late last year is not part of the pharmaceutical division of the company, which has eight seperate divisions that produce products ranging from pigments to plastics.
He asked that he and his division not be identified. He said that he sought technical support when his employees ran into difficulty installing Diskeeper and that he was referred by the support staff to Dave Kluge [no relation- s.d.] Executive Software's corporate affairs manager.
He said Kluge told him Executive Software would not provide Ciba-Geigy with any technical support. "He told me 'You people make psychiatric drugs and implements of torture.'
"I said, 'You're kidding.' I thought he was putting me on.
"He said we're responsible for people taking these drugs and don't we know they commit suicide. I told him we have nothing to do with the pharmaceutical division but he said it was the company policy," said the Ciba-Geigy official.
Kluge sent the MIS manager a letter outlining Executive Software's policy and the means by which Ciba-Geigy could obtain a refund for its purchase.
Jensen told Digital News that Executive Software would honor its contractual obligations with Ciba-Geigy, which had purchased a 12-month update
service. However, it would not renew the service or the software once the agreement expired.
"Ciba-Geigy slipped through," said Jensen. "But I think someone should take a stand on this, and I'm willing to do so."
Meanwhile the Ciba-Geigy MIS manager, who had worked with Diskeeper at a previous job and had decided to purchase it after experiencing problems with a competitor's product is essentially without a disk defragmenter.
"There's no point in using it if this is what they are going to do," he said, referring to the eventual loss of technical support and upgrades. He also expressed dismay at Executive Software's stand on Ritalin.
"Thousands of kids can attend school because of Ritalin," he said. "Those parents thank us. There are problems with every drug on the market. It is up to the doctor to decide who it should be prescribed to."
According to two former Executive Software employees, the company's policy in part stems from Jensen's membership in the Church of Scientology. "He doesn't believe in anything that has to do with psychiatry because the church doesn't," said Michael Sigourney, president of Aviv Software Inc. and a former director of marketing at Executive Software. A second employee, who asked not to be identified, confirmed Jensen's affiliation with the church, adding that, "The Church of Scientology is against the distribution of Ritalin to school
children. They're opposed to a variety of drugs."
In an October 1989 letter to his employees, Jensen detailed the company's policy in refusing to license software to psychiatrists or psychiatric institutions, stating that the policy reflected his own personal views.
That policy states in part that to do business with psychiatrists "would condone political mental treatment such as electric shocks, lobotomy and convulsive drugs. We condemn utterly this fascist approach to 'mental health' by extermination of the insane, and we will not agree to brutality and murder in the guise of mental healing or to the easy and lawless seizure of persons in the name of 'mental health' for political reasons."
The latter further elaborated that, to counter the action of some psychiatrists who purchase the product, Jensen personally donates "large sums" to organizations such as the Citizen's Commission on Human Rights, "which is doing an excellent job of documenting and publicizing psychiatric crimes."
The Citizens Commission on Human Rights was founded by the Church of Scientology in 1969 to protect individuals from psychiatric abuse. It frequently lobbies against the practice of frescribing Ritalin as a means to control hyperactive children.
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Co$ is not a religion in Germany. It's classified as some kind of a criminal organization.
Well, not quite. CoS is not a religion in Germany, although they love to refer to other countries where they have this status.
But it is just an "organization" here, and while many German government officials call it criminal and openly discuss about banning the cult, the CoS is not forbidden in Germany.
Btw, being an "organization" is very easy in Germany. I can get together with a few buddies and form a legal, official organization, which includes a few, yet very little tax improvements on our organization's money.
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Scientology is not outlawed in Germany. It hasn't been granted the status of a religion, but it isn't banned.
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and I contributte to the Linux kernel.
Good for you. Since your source isn't closed, there is little chance that a backdoor could be added (and if someone did, it will be found).
Or maybe I'm in a progressive branch. who knows?
You must be an OSA shill*. There is no progressive branch. Being a Scientologist means being 100% "tech" - everything else means you're a squirrel.
* However, the Scientology intelligence branch OSA has a history of adding distracting noise to discussions.
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Well, I tried to defend my position in a reasonable manner, despite the out right bigotry and name calling from people who are supposed to be educated and intelligent. I am not a shill, I am just someone contributing my view.
And I don't believe you, nonetheless, especially since you are posting as an Anonymous. Anonymous trolls defending CoS but not coming up with details when asked for it have been a standard technique on alt.religion.scientology.
Anyone reading Scientology's documents and documented statements by CoS officials will see that what you said contradicts Scientology's official standpoint.
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> They were afraid there were security risks from using software from a Scientologist. No joke.
And for some strange reason they weren't afraid of security risks from Microsoft itself? Or the NSA?
Or even the insecure-by-design philosopy that let MS itself get hacked by a kiddie?
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
One profits from defective engrams, the other profits from defective programs.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
There's a whole lot of achronims in that title :P
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
No, I don't think so. I think you've encountered Karma Freeze. It sets in around 50pts, I think. I just means you can't really go up beyond that point. It happens to everyone, sooner or later. Nothing personal, I've been stuck there for about a year.
-- IANAEG - I am not an elder god.
The Crusades were not so much about conversion or about slaughtering infidels, as they were about retaking land from said infidels--land which had been Christian since about 70. And, in reality, it was a way for a warlike people to expend their energies. Like all wars, religion di not cause it; religion was its excuse.
I've had to deal with these bozos before. I ran one of the news servers they tried to hack when I refused to allow them to cancel of a few articles about them. They tried to run exploits aginst the news server. When the OSI visted some of the bozos and told them to stop, more attacks came from other places. We even got letters from one of their attys. I'm not sure why they gave up in the end. Maybe they finaly understod the .mil on the end of the domain name.
So the next time you asked to take an IQ test, ask the idiot how L R's head is doing and when its going to thaw out.
If you make a scientoligst cry, does that mess with their orb or what ever it is? do they have to pay more to get back to the same level?
No, it was Heinlein and Hubbard, according to the Urbal Legends site.
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Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
You saved me the trouble of posting that.
:)
Church of Scientology: the only religion ever started on a bet.
-M
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Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
dramatic claims which it makes no effort to validate. Check out this link for
some of the earliest claims (with time they become more and more
dramatic).
These claims are objectively testable, but Dianeticians do not
either try to validate them or retract them. When faced with
criticism that these claims are a pack of lies, they try to claim the
criticism is a result of a conspiracy. This is anti-scientific.
Psychiatry is a broad church, with many competing ideas on how to
best treat patients. I don't think the ideas involved in the early
dianetics were whackier than some in the psychological mainstream, but
what differentiates dianetics and scientology is its secrecy and
hostility to criticism.
but it is not religious persecution as the CoS alleges.
Scientologists are free to publish what they will and try to persuade
others what they will, given the following caveat: if they make a
profit from these activities they are required to register them as a
business. The freedoms have been defended in sevral court cases.
Have a look at the following FAQ about Scientology in Germany for
all the boring little details. The document is partisan, but unlike
the CoS stuff, it keeps to the facts.
Hold on: the software isn't banned. Various German government
organisations have restrictions put on them preventing them from
working with companies assocaited with Scientology, but private
individuals and companies are free to make such associations. Some
states in Germany are encouraging companies to adopt similar schemes,
but these schemes are purely voluntary.
It's this same kind of intolerance and paranoia by the dominating German political parties that led to the holocaust.
Bite my e-meter, squirrel boy.
"I will gladly pay you today, sir, and eat up
Sacred cows make the best burgers.
Amway is the biggist religous cult in the world.
amen bro, and it has 2 eLRons, making it twice as good as CoS. Ascended Master Diamond Platinum 'Downline' VanAndel & Grand Exhalted Dickhead DeVos, for whom almost everything in this town is named.
"I will gladly pay you today, sir, and eat up
Sacred cows make the best burgers.
"I will gladly pay you today, sir, and eat up
Sacred cows make the best burgers.
It's like saying Islam is bad and no Muslim programmer can be trusted.
no, it's not like that at all. it's more like saying al capone was bad or timothy mcveigh cannot be trusted.
"I will gladly pay you today, sir, and eat up
Sacred cows make the best burgers.
So you are saying the CoS is inherently bad?
yes. inherently fucked up lunacy. CoS gospel is little more than the depraved rantings of a madman. CoS operations are little more than a con game on a massive scale. Travolta is a clueless untalented schmuck, Cruise is just a dumbshit. The "church" is loaded with sadistic control freaks and thier misbehavior is widely documented in vast detail. CoS sucks. Any doubt left as to what I'm saying, squirrel boy?
"I will gladly pay you today, sir, and eat up
Sacred cows make the best burgers.
Scientology brainwashed my pet dog snowy. I miss snowy so much. Does anyone how I can rescue my snowy?
snowy is now living 10 million years in the past, lapping up the excrement of l. ron and his alien overlord hierarchy.
"I will gladly pay you today, sir, and eat up
Sacred cows make the best burgers.
No, clearly not. I was just talking about the appearance that was created, not about the moral rectitude of the act itself.
I didn't say they were good. Note my comments that I agree that everything I know about CoS indicates to me that they are essentially a cult (although I don't claim to be an expert). Merely that it creates a generally bad appearance for the German government to get involved in this sort of thing, whether the organization is a cult or a religion, or a political group or whatever. It's the affiliation of one person who happens to be the CEO of a company that produces the software. My point is that 50 years ago many people in Germany would have said the exact same things about a company run by a Jew. Now, I think we are pretty much right today and they were clearly morally way-off 50 years ago, and I'm not a moral relativist. Merely pointing out that it should give us pause - not that I have the ideal explanation for the situation and the correct and incorrect course of action for the German government or people.
It may seem like a Good Thing. My point was that it would have seemed like a good thing to Germans 50 years ago to boycott software written by a company run by a Jew. Is this the appropriate way to fight an organization that we think is bad? It seems to me to cloud the distinction between an organization committing immoral acts and the people in it being "inherently bad" or somehow polluting to projects that they are involved in (i.e. defrag software).
I don't know the answer, this is a tough question. I agree the CoS is a Bad Thing. But I don't think it's a Good Thing to boycott software, or judge ideas or judge products as good or bad based on the beliefs, however wacked we think they are, of somebody who was involved in its production. Actually, let me clarify that: I think it's fine for INDIVIDUALS to make those sorts of decisions, but I don't get a good feeling when the GOVERNMENT of a large nation makes a decision like that. Governments tend to be bad at making fine-grained philisophical or ethical decisions like this (i.e. is the software somehow polluted by the participation of a Scientologist?).
Note that I'm ignoring potential security issues. There are other ways to deal with that (code audit for security).
Fully agreed. They aren't a legitimate religion. I stated that in my original posting. I was just shocked by the casualness with which most posters seemed to accept banning or mucking around with the sale of software that involved an individual associated with a "bad" organization. It was just the wording of it all that disturbed me - is it appropriate, despite or because of past historical events, for a government to try to ban software or books or products because the member of a group that commits admittedly evil acts was involved in a company that produced them.
No, if it was flamebait I would have posted AC. Acting against CoS is one thing. I am not criticizing the German government for raiding CoS compounds or banning the organization's activities. I am simply wondering about the appropriateness of extending these activities to the realm of bans based on personal affiliations. It blurs the line between "bad organization" and "bad person". This is NOT flamebait. This is a fucking legitimate question.
And please note, shithead, that you can't be "corrected" for having an opinion. If I stated something factually false, I will concede it. I merely stated an opinion about the impression that was created by certain words used to describe the German government's actions. I realize these concepts are too abstract for an AC like you.
It was even on slashdot at the time (not that it proves anything, but...)
"The law" in this case was Co$ interpretation of copyright law, which they perverted to use against any unauthorized (read, outside) reading of their books
All opinions are my own - until criticized
A potentially compromised disk defragmenter is quite a bit more dangerous than a simple movie (write me a trojan/virus/worm hidden in a movie file and I will be quite happy to change my mind)
Also, Windows 2000 was only banned from use on Government computers (private users and businesses are of course free to use it, but a lot of businesses decided on their own that they would not buy W2K).
And you simply cannot run a software written by people whose loyalty lie by an organization like Scientology on a sensitive computer.
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Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
First, I can't believe the swedish government would be so foolish as to yield to an unsubstantiated letter from a powerless congressman.
Secondly, if the letter was real, any country, or even any group could bring that congressman a world of pain if he wasn't acting within the law, which clearly he wasn't if this was real (which I doubt)
If you can find a link, I'd be interested to read more, but it sounds very much like something which has been made up.
________
The impression I got was exactly the opposite. Germany have (unsurprisingly) a large set of strong laws that are designed to prevent large super powerful organisations (MS, the Nazi party) using their power to over promote a single point of view. I agree that in this case it is probably a bit of overkill, but the sentiment is right. If MS *were* promoting a set of ideas that some people find distastful, then we shouldn't be forced to accept it. We should have the choice as to weather we "support" them or not.
It is not "religous suppression", it is exactly the opposite. It is giving us the choice as to whether we support something, or not, and that can only be a good thing.
If you're not going to use software written by a Scientologist, or written by a crony of Bill Gates, that should be your own wacky individual choice to make
And it should be your choice if you *do* want to use it. The German ruling gives *you* the choice, not Bilbo.
The whole thing breaks down (again) to choice. German law is very very hot on freedom of religous choice. They've forced MS to respect that freedom, even over a very very minor point, which is a good thing.
Now, if only they could be convinced that the use of IE contravened our religious beliefs...
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the reason Germany is so tough on cults like Scientology is because of the suffering wrought by said Austrian ex-colonel, on the German people and the whole world
I suggest you elaborate on why Scientology is bad because of one particular person's view. Your logic is slightly twisted and I fear that you are the one who is brainwashed. You are following right along with your government's views and condoning the discrimination against a (harmeless) religion all because of one person. You are prosecuting EVERYONE because of ONE. That is just so unbelievable silly.
Consequently, instead of allowing dangerous, brainwashing religions to flourish under the sort of blanket coverage provided by the US consitution, they're seeking to protect weak-willed citizens from the cult leaders and themselves
Yeah, because I see SO many people here who are brainwashed by cults! Right. I can tell you that this 'brainwashing' you are referring to doesn't happen as much as you would like to think.
if you found that part of your operating system was developed by an avowed neo-Nazi, what would you do?
How can you compare a hate group to Scientology? I don't know that much about it but from what I know it's harmless. Perhaps you can educate us on why it is OK to prosecure Scientology as a whole.
It's posts like this that make me proud to be an American.
Why do I keep typing pythong?
As an example, using the defrag utility on my Win2000 box right now, it says about 15%-20% of the drive is fragmented. Recommended course of action by the program: don't worry about it. Earlier Windows versions (and users) would have scoffed at 20% fragmentation. "It's one-fifth of the drive!". But not so in Windows 2000.
I defrag my current drive around once in every 4 months. About the number of times I had to sit through fsck in rebooting my Linux machine (for various reasons).
If they want to remove defrag, I say let them. It's barely used or needed.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Amway is the biggist religous cult in the world. They trick average, generally good people into worshiping Pyramid (schemes) and other evil things. And they keep it shrouded in secrecy because you can only sell to other Amway "followers", wich encourages them to go seek out more followers for their evil cult. If Scientoligy is no more a religion than Amway is, I'm getting pretty scared of Scientoligy.
--I assume full responsibility for my actions, except the ones that are someone else's fault.
the reason Germany is so tough on cults like Scientology is because of the suffering wrought by said Austrian ex-colonel, on the German people and the whole world. Consequently, instead of allowing dangerous, brainwashing religions to flourish under the sort of blanket coverage provided by the US consitution, they're seeking to protect weak-willed citizens from the cult leaders and themselves. Reverse the situation: if you found that part of your operating system was developed by an avowed neo-Nazi, what would you do? BTW, a discrimination lawsuit? In which country's courts are you gonna bring that in? What makes Americans think that their legal system is global? Thank Ghod, it's not.
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It's worth noting that the first set of instructions MS released were just a deceptive sop to the German authorities. If you followed those instructions, the defragger (and all the iles you deleted) would be automatically restored from internal backup no later than the next reboot after you deleted them.
"But, it is well known, what strikes the capricious mind of the poet is not always what affects the mass of readers." -
Yes, they could be there. It would be harder than most programs, but they could be there. So have some M$ engineers look at it, and announce whether or not there are. They shouldn't be hard to find; its a fscking DEFRAG program -- if it connects to the net, that's BAD. If it changes *any* content other than logs and where stuff is, thats BAD. A few more I probably can't think of, check for buffer/string format holes, and its done. Not too hard. And if M$ says its OK, well then it's as OK as the rest of the OS (not very, but good enough for most people).
is it not sufficient for M$ to simply have a team of their own engineers review the code and declare it safe? That seems to me the best way to deal with an alleged security hole. Now, that assumes it is safe. If it isn't, then more needs to be done...
I don't know enough about Scientology to have a firm opinion on this, but I do know that there are large numbers of people, not only in Germany but in other European countries as well, that figth them. These people are generally not your average traditional-christian zealots, nor militant agnostics.
JdV!!
<Enter any 12-digit prime to continue>
Why should it be a joke?
What is wrong with fearing a Cult that has been shown to do very bad things. They allready intimidate and kill people. So what is wrong with fearing software from them?
www.xenu.net is a great resource of the evils of scientology
I'm no fan of the CoS. I've read the stories. I know what they've done. I have a lot of trouble believing the "Church" bit, since they didn't start out that way and, at the time they prepended "Church of" to their name, said it was only "for tax purposes."
But still, this action leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Banning a piece of the software because the maker's CEO, who probably never so much as glanced at the code, is a scientologist and therefore a "security risk"? This seems a bit too much. Certainly it can't be considered more of a risk than any other closed-source software.
Or to put it another way, when one group uses Nazi-like policies to fight a group that uses Nazi-like policies, in the end only the Nazis win.
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Criticism like this coming from a country that in the present:
* Kills innocents (death penalty)
* Does not follow international treaties
(2 German criminals were prosecuted in the US of A _after_ the International Court [including one US judge]
ordered a stop, becaues of violation of international treaties granting right to diplomatic help)
* Killed millions of indians, had slavery, has a war on harmless drug users
* Has the highest rate of people in jail of all "civilized" nations
Please moderate this down.
Anyways German courts have decided Scientology is not a religion. I tend to agree. Thus it does not have the same protection as e.g. Jewish, pagan , christian or any other religion or belief system.
German government _is_ a bit hysterical about scientology IMHO.
But that does not mean that your comparison to Nazi terror is in the least bit justified, get a life, buy a newspaper and stop smoking crack.
I hate this crap.
Moritz
Speaking of "Fair Game," it appears I'm now flagged as a troublemaker by Slashdot. For the past four or so months, I've yet to gain an iota of karma for the posts that I've had moderated up -- and, in fact, I've seen a net loss of karma, because meta-moderation has smoked me a few times.
What happened? Oh, just that during the summer, I was particularly disappointed with the quality of Slashdot postings and the moderation system. I groused about it, quit being a moderator (I was part of the test pilot group, so I must have engendered some sort of respect at one time) and came within bits of deleting Slashdot from my bookmarks list.
I can only assume I've received a Taco bitchslap. How petty.
In the past week, I've posted twelve messages. Four have been moderated up and seven have generated follow-up replies. None have been moderated down. And yet my karma -- it's dropped at least three points, and perhaps five.
This wouldn't bother me, except that at some point I'm bound to fall below the +2 boundry, and will have no method of recouping the loss. I really don't give a flying fuck about accumulating gross amounts of karma, but I am a little cheesed that I've been excluded from the system, to my detriment.
Church of Scientology, coming soon to a Slashdot near you: fair game policies, chain-locker imprisonment, Operation Freak-out and Karma Exclusion -- whoo! What fun it is to run a private fiefdom!
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Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
As far as I know, no movie has ever been banned for reasons of Scientology in Germany.
However, CoS Germany tries again and again to use "their" movie stars as advertisement for their recruitment and both Tom Cruise and John Travolta openly advertised their CoS membership in interviews over here in the past. (Cruise has stopped doing so, but I read that for any interview, his management now insists on having no CoS-related questions and that every question must be sent to his press agent in advance...)
Anyway, since both CoS and the CoS-related stars use their movies for Scientology recruitment efforts, many Cruise- and Travolta-movies are not just seen as simple, mindless entertainment over here. The youth organization of the CDU (CDU is the conservartive of the two major parties here in Germany) has even picketed some of these movies, but back then, the German press thought that this was neither effective nor smartly done.
However, a script like "Phenomenon" (where Travolta turns into some kind of superman and does a few CoS-inspired nonsense) raises a few eyebrows over here. Movies with CoS-stars are always looked at for some potential subtext. If I am not mistaken, the German voice actor who used to dub Cruise in the past has given up this job because he was disgusted by Cruise's continuing CoS recruitment propaganda.
BTW, Battlefield Earth will appear as a video premiere in Germany. It seems that noone is happy about it, but a contract is a contract. It appears to me that the American release was also part of a contractual deal that forced Warner Brothers to do it, no matter if it was any good.
On the other hand, MI:2 was a huge success in Germany and while some critics mentioned Cruise's involvement with the CoS, it was no big deal for the audience.
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You may like my a cappella music
Incidentally I've replaced the default W2k defrag tool with another free beer tool from:
http://www.oosoft.de/
I think its by a German company.
What I'm curious about is whether the Germans ban any movies, since there are many CoS devotees in Hollywood. Are Travolta movies prohibited, especially "Battlefield Earth"? (Well, OK, you could ban that simply as a "crime against humanity") How about Tom Cruise films?
While it's well and good to make their stand against the CoS (given recent German history, I'll cut them some slack on the freedom of religion and association issues), but it seems like taking on M$ but not Hollywood is kinda questionable -- "Well, if we ban movies people will actually be upset -- they gotta have their MI2. But no one really cares about some defrag utility".
Also, remember how strongly Microsoft objected to the read-write version of NTFSDOS, because it "violated security" by reading and writing NT file systems from DOS. (The original read/write version was pulled under pressure from Microsoft. There's now a freeware read/write version, years later, but it's a different program. Microsoft didn't like those guys; they wrote NTCRASH, which found dozens of security holes in NT by generating random system calls.) So it's suprising to see something like file system defragmentation farmed out.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Scientology is BAD NEWS. They will stop at NOTHING to discredit people who publicly criticise them. They will dig up any dirt, publish any accusation, go to ANY LENGTH to shut you up if you're a critic.
Trust me: running software written by a Scientologist IS a security risk. Their beliefs do not include ethics and/or morals of any sort that you would recognize. I don't remember this for sure, but I think they believe non-scientologists are essentially not human and thus it doesn't matter if they lie, cheat, or steal from them. If they put a trojan horse on your computer and Scientology can use it to further the causes of the church (ie, steal money from you), well, so much the better.
I don't know if the money and power have corrupted them enough yet (they certainly don't have far to fall) but it wouldn't surprise me if they simply started killing people who oppose them.
They are the most evil organization I have ever encountered in my medium-length life. Tread carefully around them. Their religion is morally bankrupt and corrupt to the core and the central leadership is deeply evil.
I would post this under my user account but I know for a fact they have long memories -- I'd rather not end up on any of their lists.
Tread carefully with anyone who supports scientology -- anyone who claims it is a wholesome outfit is almost certainly corrupt and not to be trusted.
Germany is RIGHT.
I am not the original poster, and yes, I am posting as AC, but this is why:
The Co$ is known for totally destroying and discrediting its critics.
Take this for example: The Co$ saw Prozac as such a threat (because they prey on the depressed and disenfranchised) that they took it upon themselves to launch a campaign against the drug both in the courts and by impersonating the inventor of the drug and doing many outrageous acts in public. It got so bad that the inventor of the drug (a woman, I forgot her name) was eventually locked up in a mental hospital until this whole shenannigan was uncovered. The Co$ is evil (even more evil than M$, believe it or not.) Time magazine had an article on the evils of the Co$ many years ago (around '91 or '92)... if you want more info on the current evils of Co$, check here
Just some quotes:
Now, I'm no fan of the tenets of CoS. But things like this coming from the German government also give me pause. I mentally replace "Scientologist" with "Jew" and I see something that could have happened 50 years ago if we had a software industry ... "We won't use software tools made by the Jews, you can't trust them or their software".
I am not saying that I think CoS is a legitimate religious organization. I don't. Admittedly, many religions tend toward greed or zealotry, but CoS walks like a cult, smells like a cult and quacks like a cult. Nevertheless, coming from the German government broad regulations and requirements of software or other consumer products based on the belief set or association of those who created them - well, it just doesn't ring very well in my mind. If you're not going to use software written by a Scientologist, or written by a crony of Bill Gates, that should be your own wacky individual choice to make. I don't think having the government try to muck around in it is a good idea, especially in a country like Germany, where there is a long history of cultural tendencies toward nationalism and racism.
I realize that in this case the result is instructions on uninstalling and not government action, but the government made the statement and did try to get involved, and that's enough to give me pause.
In the 1970's Scientology had a intelligence orginization called the "GO" Guardian Office, which infilitrated several government agencies and stole millions of documents from them in what they called "Operation Snow White". They were eventaully caught and 12 top officials went to jail.
Scientology is real, these are the crazy fucks your mother warned you about. They are no less then true evil.
I can guarantee the defragger is a trojan horse.
http://www.xenu.net
Many scientologists as individuals are decent honest people. Its unfortunate that they have made such a poor choice in remaining in the "church." I could go on all day long about them, but many others have already covered it and more eloquently than I could.
What is the difference between Scientology and Microsoft? One is an evil cult bent on world domination and the other was begun by L. Ron Hubbard.
The reality is that the CoS actively infiltrates governments. It's part of their cult mandate: LRon himself wrote "The goal of the [CoS] Department [of Governmental Affairs] is to bring the government and hostile philosophies or societies into a state of complete compliance with the goals of Scientology. This is done by a high-level ability to control and in its absence by a low-level ability to overwhelm. Introvert such agencies. Control such agencies."
Here's the internal CoS memo that ended up with the US IRS being infiltrated, a bijillion documents stolen, and ultimately the arrest and subsequent jailing of CoS members: [Infiltrate the IRS]. It is, of course, worth noting that in the end, the IRS dismissed over a billion dollars in backtaxes and granted the CoS religious exemption status... in a secret, shady, wholly unprecedented deal.
[This document] also provides some good insight.
The Greek government busted a CoS unit, and discovered [top-secret US military airbase maps.]
In Canada, the CoS stole confidential documents from myriad Ontario government organizations, when those organizations were investigating the CoS for various illegal practices. They CoS had operatives working in the RCMP, the Ontario Provincial Police, the Metro Toronto Police, the Ontario Medical Assoc., the College of Physicians, the Cdn Mental Health Assoc., and even the Attorney General's office.
The CoS is also infiltrating businesses: it offers a "training package" which is no more than Hubbardology in business guise. There's a bit of a write up [over here], and a bit of web-searching will dig up a lot more information about the repugnent tactics they use to abuse people to perform better.
Here are two great CoS information sites: [RickRoss] and [Xenu.Net] And it really takes no effort at all to use Google to dig up plenty of facts that will shock and astound you.
As evil organizations hell-bent on world domination go, the CoS is pretty much at the fore-front. Their adherents are fanatical beyond any rational thinking, their mandates to infiltrate governments, businesses and opposition groups is explicit and ruthless, and they have a pile of money.
Go do some web-prowling. The CoS is fascinating, scary and shocking. It's a better use of your time than surfing for goat pr0n!
[I'm probably now "Fair Game" -- which is kind of scary: in CoS words, I "may be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed."]
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Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
This is analogous to protesting that something you were more or less compelled to buy (let's face it, you can't do business easily without buying much MS software) was developed by the Aum Shinrikyo, the Mafia or the Taliban.
Why am I negative against CoS? Aren't they just another church? Not in my view. A few years back the CoS managed to get the Swedish goverment to break against the Swedish constitution, to preserve the "secrets" of the CoS Bible. They did this through one of their members, an american congressman.
This congressman wrote a very sharp and direct official letter to the Swedish government, threatening with all kinds of retributions unless they made a decision that was (and is) against the swedish consistution, namely to make the CoS Bible secret although it, through clever usage of Swedish law, had been made a public document.
The swedish government yielded to that threat, because the USA is a powerful nation. The congressman, when asked about the letter afterwards, could "not remember writing such a letter"...
Anyways, a "church" that powerful and defensive is not a healthy thing. Politicians that easily convinced to make official threats on account of their religious leaders isn't either.
So I can understand the German government. By making sure that absolutely nothing in official use is made by or (ideally) even influenced by the CoS, the risks of them overtaking (or perhaps rahter "affecting") important parts of the country's affairs is significantly lessend.
I only wish that the U.S.A. would take similar measures. After all, that's where the problem^H^H^H^H^H^H^HCoS originated.
-jerdenn