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Ask Loki Prez Scott Draeker about Linux Gaming
John Carmack of id wrote Quake III, but Loki distributed the Linux version. Loki Entertainment Software has been described by happy puppy as "...the most visible Linux gaming company," so who better to turn to than Loki President Scott Draeker for word about game development and porting for Linux? Scott's an extra-cool guy, so we expect extra-cool answers from him. We'll post them sometime within the next week, so please keep an eye out.
Out of curiousity...how difficult was it to port the Quake ]|[ code and did it take very long? And do you have any advice for porting DOS/Windows code to Linux?
Sgt Pepper
Lame Sig Shamelessly Ripped from
Fortune:
Disco is to music what Etch-A-Sketch is to art.
Loki Rocks! One of the best things going in the Linux Games scene!
I know the one question I would love to ask this fellow.
I have wondered this since the first day I heard about CIV:CTP port. Considering the limited nature of the Linux market at this moment how well is Loki doing as a company in terms of sales and profits?
ACK
I was curious as to any plans to develop or port a game similar to Asheron's Call or Everquest for Linux? I've seen opensource projects along these lines but none of them seem to be developing very quickly.
Scott, I am a linux programmer doing active development for technology companies in Canada. My questions spawns more from a business side rather than a technology side. I've examined Lokis business model and have a two-fold question. #1: Do you think simply porting games is a viable business model for Loki games. As Linux acceptance picks up don't you fear that more gaming houses will start doing their own cross-platform development in house rather than relying upon Loki as a "port house". #2: Linked to #1, if you fear this trend, will we see any original titles coming from LokiSoft or do you plan on strictly remaining a port house.
Do you think there is a market for children's software that runs on Linux?
GollyGee Blocks -- 3D creativity software for kids.
- Andy R.
A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
John Carmack of id wrote Quake III, but Loki ported it to Linux
This is flat out wrong. Dave Hircsh, aka Zoid, along with Carmack (both of id) were responsible for the linux code for quake3. Loki merely repackaged and distributed the linux version of the software.
--
You can be an atheist and still not want to succumb to some weird cross-over sheep disease -- AC
When programming a game, what steps can be taken to make it easily ported to other platforms?
For example, is one language better then another? (at least in being able to be easily ported)
Is one method of displaying graphics better then another? (OpenGL, Direct X, etc.)
And do you have any useful tips for programmers to assist in porting?
Thanks,
Axiom
Of course, the mainstream preference seems to be towards first-person shoot 'em up type games, but I for one enjoy racing games (Need for Speed, NASCAR, and the like). Does Loki have any plans for porting other types of games to Linux, and if so, how about working on joystick/periphial support?
Brad Johnson
--We are the Music Makers, and we
are the Dreamers of Dreams
Brad Johnson
quake, unreal, doom, are all geek-games
but how could linux become a mainstream gaming
platform?
is there a chance, that most future games
will be available?
how important will wine be for linux as a gaming platform?
How will XFree 4.0 affect how loki ports games? Is it going to make things easier? Harder? I know you have problems with being compatible with the different video card types and GlideX.X or Mesa3.X but you have done a really great job so far (I own quake ]|[, heretic ][, and Homm ]|[).
~Jester
"I have great faith in fools: Self confidence my friends call it." ~Edgar Allan Poe
Since Linux was originally much more geared towards and used for server-applications and has only been moving into the desktop-market for a relatively short period, I can imagine the operating system is not entirely optimized for playing games. Stability often comes at the cost of performance and features, so I was wondering, do you think it would be useful to create a Linux distribution that focusses mainly on gaming and other multimedia-related applications?
let me correct that last question:
And do you have any useful tips for programmers who are programming a game now that would make it easier to port in the future?
Axiom
Umm,
:-)
Might just be me, but I thought that Loki only distributed the game in this case since the Linux development was done my id themselves to get all 3 platforms out at the same time.
I could be wrong
Given Loki's experience in porting applications, have you considered, or been offered to, port programs other than games to Linux?
I'm assuming that your (current) modus operandi is to call up a company and say "Hey, can we port your game to Linux?" Given that assumption:
1) How many companies have you talked to?
2) What percentage of them rejected the request?
3) Of those that rejected, what were their reasons? (fear of "open source", lack of demand, etc)
--
Here is the result of your Slashdot Purity Test.
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
Currently, Linux is lacking the standardized interfaces and API's that WIndows has. What is the greatest challenge (that needn't be one) when porting a game to Linux?
I mean, what makes you swear at Linux and say, Damnit, why doesn't Linux have this yet???
I can't say how excited I was to be able to buy Quake 3 specifically the Linux version out or Electronics Boutique, but, the thing that keeps me from going linux full time to be honest, is a lack of flight-sims! Do you have plans to port any flight-sims anytime soon?
Derek G.
Derek Greene
First of all, I just bought Loki's port of RailroadTycoon Gold Edition yesterday and it rocks. It's the first game I've bought for Linux. Thanks. What is your criteria for choosing a game to port? Do you search out games that would be marketable to the average Linux user and then go to the company that owns that property? Or do the companies come to you asking you to port their game to Linux? I noticed that several of your games (Civilization, RailroadTycoon, Heroes of Might & Magic III) are essentially "3d" top down tile games. Is there something about this type of game that makes it easier to port than a first person shooter like Quake? Porting Windows games to Linux presents any number of technical challenges. What is the technical challenge that you're most proud of overcoming? Despite all efforts (or perhaps because of them) Linux is still considered an OS for "Geeks" (and I mean that in the kindest way). I think the availability of good quality games for Linux is a great step in bringing Linux to the masses. Do you foresee Linux ever becoming truly "mainstream" in the consumer market? What do you think must happen either to Linux or within the Linux community for this mainstreaming to happen. And is the mainstreaming of Linux even a good thing?
How do you convince the original makers of the games that you are porting to let you do it?
I imagine that it is a slightly easier task now that you have proven that you won't take their code and run.
Devil Ducky
MY peers would get out of jury duty.
If Linux-centric games start being developed and released on a broader scale, do you think making the source available under the GPL after release would be a viable solution to quick patches and bug fixes? Or would this lead to illegal forks becoming as much of a problem as pirating?
The only thing I want to know is how profitable is the business of porting software to linux? I know it sounds like a bit of business secret, but I just want to know the truth as to whether there money in what you're doing. For example, how much of a return do you expect on games like Railroad Tycoon?
I/O Error G-17: Aborting Installation
I was wondering if you've taken a look at Penguin Play, or any of the other API-like attempts at making it easier for people to program/port games for linux.
Do you think that initiatives like this are good for the OS in the long run, or do you think they're more dangerous as a way of vanilla-izing or lowering the bar for good game programming?
I understand that you cannot tell us what's happening before the announcements actually occur, but can you tell us if there is another place we might hope to get information, or if there is a good way for us to have a positive influence on the probability of particular games being ported?
Other slashdotters here seem interested in the coding challenge, which is cool, but I want to know how good of a return you guys are making on these ports. I'd like to take those statistics over to other companies to encourage them to port their products (not just games, but Real Apps too). These may be unglamorous questions, but they are the meat and potatoes ones that you no doubt answered when you decided to go ahead and port these games to linux.
Shameless Request: It would be very nice to see Everquest brought over =)
Molog
So Linus, what are we doing tonight?
So Linus, what are we going to do tonight?
The same thing we do every night Tux. Try to take over the world!
...when I got LinuxPPC. I won't be buying anymore Loki games though as they seem to have decided LinuxPPC users only need two or three games! :-
2) When's the IPO?
Oh yeah, and can I have a job? Please? Please please please? If you give me a job I promise to sit in the back and not bother anyone... :-)
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
The reason I ask, is because I've been drooling over the thought of buying Quake 3 for Linux -- But the thing that stops me is the q3demo didn't work properly. I downloaded it, and installed it (the shell script installer was fantastic, by the way), but when I run it, it runs at about 1 frame per second from start to finish (From the ID Software logo, to the menus, to the game, right to the exit screen.) I've tried for a long long time to get it working, and to no avail. Windows sucks but Games work - Both well, and immediately.
Because of this, I haven't bought Quake 3 yet. I want to know it *WILL WORK* so I'm not stuck with a $50 piece of software that is of no use to me.
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
Porting "merely" requires technical skill at the engine level : know-how on how to port Win32 to X, getting DirectX to work with SDL, OpenGL cross-platform issues, etc. Creation, on the other hand, requires the full asset of content creation tools that are of vital importance in every software house, but remain hidden from the end user -- and the porter. I like to call those tools the "boring 50%" of game production, and they consist of level editors, model builders, conversion tools (eg 3DS Max to native format), sound editors, etc.
Since Loki has recently showed interest in developing, instead of porting, Linux games, I'd like to hear what your take is on the apparent lack of solid, existing authoring tools (other than the Gimp), and the lack of solid desktop development support (KDevelop et al are nice but no match for the MSVC/MFC combo) needed to write all those quick'n'dirty but ultra-vital editor tools.
Do you agree that this lack of Linux equivalents of 3DS Max, Soundforge and MSVC is currently a major hurdle for Linux-native development ? If you go for full Linux development, would you create authoring support all by yourself and release it (a la MPEG SDL), or rather sit back and wait until Codewarrior, Kinetix etc all get their Linux products up to par with Win32 ?
Thanks !
Coupla Q's:
1. When porting an application from Windows to the Linux world, I would assume that porting OpenGL code would be more straightforward than DirectX code (at least for the 3D-engine games). Has there been any thought to Loki producing an API that can replace DirectX on Linux, so that any game which uses the DirectX API could merely be recompiled using these new libraries, instead of the Microsoft supplied ones. (I don't just mean DirectDraw, but DirectSound/Input/etc).
2. Do you think that porting games from the Windows world to the Linux world places your developers in a good position to create original games directly for Linux, or are different skillsets involved?
Thanks
The "Top 10" Reasons to procrastinate:
The "Top 10" Reasons to procrastinate:
10.
Scott,
I've noticed that your company is now porting to LinuxPPC, and so, I have a few questions regarding that:
1) You obviously feel that the PPC market is viable for porting. What factors made the PPC more attractive over the Sparc or Alpha? I can see where the larger Macintosh hardware market may be a factor, but I just don't see Linux taking ahold on the Mac side like I do with the PC side.
2) Have there been many problems with the PPC porting effort, such in the ways of 3-D Acceleration, sound support, etc?
3) And finally, is Loki's PPC support limited to PCI machines made by Apple, or are you targeting any PPC machine that can run Linux? (Such as CHRP motherboards or machines that can only run MkLinux).
thanks,
dennis
The concept of Linux Game Programmer as a paying job is a relatively recent one. One is unlikely to see too many resumes with "8 years experience coding games on Linux" (or, if so, it should be viewed with skepticism).
When sifting through resumes of prospective coders, does Loki lean towards programmers with a strong gaming background or rather those with more Linux programming experience?
Your courageous and selfless spelling corrections have made me a better person.
Sadly enough I bought Quake 3 for Linux, not because I like Quake 3 - I don't - but because I'm hoping that my purchase will help show game companies that there is a market in developing and porting games to the Linux platform. I would like to be able to buy every game that comes out for Linux, but to tell the truth I don't have any interest in the games currently on Loki's product page. With this in mind, what would you think is the best way for me - as a consumer and a Linux user - to show game companies that I do want games ported to Linux?
Joseph Elwell.
Because of the sheer dominance of Windows (9x) as the gaming platform of choice, Linux seems that it is always playing catch up. The developers generally build sepecifically for Windows, certainly making your job tougher.
What will it take for Linux to be a primary development platform? Does the Linux community need to make strives to enrich certain aspects of itself, or is it an issue of critical mass?
I've noticed that all your games seem to use /dev/audio or some such device rather than considering network audio (through the Network Audio System); they also seem to have a frightening dependence on being on the same machine as the X server. My question is this: Why is there so little support for what X can really do? Why use non-standard 3D stuff instead of GLX? I would like to be able to run this using an NCD X-terminal, for example, which has NAS support and GLX support, but your software is all geared toward the PC. Why is this? Is any of that going to change as time goes by?
While I refuse to use (much less pay) for any type of closed source applications, I view games more as entertainment then an application. A side effect of this is that when I shell out $50US for a game, I'd like to be assured I can enjoy said game whenever I'd like, for the next 5-10 years. With DOS/Windows games, I have this assurance. Two of my all-time favorites, "Master of Orion", and "X-COM", were written for plain old DOS 6.22. Today, many years later, I can still (and do!) play these games on my Windows 98 machine. Aside from Microprose, I'm a huge ID fan. When Quake 3 came out for Linux and Windows, I purchased the Windows version, even though I have to reboot every time I want to play it. I felt I had no assurance that Quake 3 for Linux would still run on Linux 2.4, much less 3.0, or 4.0, with glibc 8.5. I'm sure there are others who feel the same. What type gaurantee can you give the gaming community, so we know our closed-source Linux entertainment purchases will still be usable for an acceptable ammount of time.
I realize part of DOS/Windows problem is the overhead incurred by backwards compatibility, but, on the other hand, I sure do enjoy being able to whip out my copy of "Karateka", or "Leisure Suit Larry 2" and know it will still run.
There seems to be direct competion in most application space between commercial software and Open Source alternatives (e.g. office suites, web servers, operating systems, etc.), except in particular niche markets. I've seen numerous comments, however, that games are different. They don't have the shelf-life of other applications. This viewpoint seems to stem from the idea that most games depend on cutting-edge technology which are best developed quickly in small groups. This is quite distinct from most Open Source development which often proceeds at a more deliberate pace ;) However, this may the ideal environment to develop different types of games such as MUDs, MUSHs, etc.
Do you forsee any conflict between commercial game software and Free alternatives? Or are these complementary models that can work together, or at least coexist?
Given that Linux is receiving better and better support for the latest hardware (sound cards, video, etc.), what do you see as the next big obstacle for Linux game development/porting?
My UID is the product of 2 primes.
As best as you recall, what was the most -unusual- response you had, with regards to the idea of porting software to Linux?
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
What would loki's plan be after the rest of the world learns what we know; when they start porting games themselves to linux?
What can we fix to make Linux a gaming platform? More specifically, what hardware drivers, APIs and libraries need to be improved to make Linux a better gaming platform than that other OS? As a coder, a gamer and a Linux afficionado I'm interested in this question, because once I know what needs to be fixed, I can roll up my sleeves and get to work. Unlike with that other OS.
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
ever thought of porting the connectix virtual game station? it would be one peice of software that would allow hundreds of games to be played. make sense? Connectix Inc.
It's been reported on MANY sites, like slashdot and linuxgames.com that you are porting games such as Soilder of Forutne, Sim City 3000, among others. Tuxgames.com is even taking pre-orders for these games. Yet there is nothing on your website about relase dates, or even that you are doing anything with these games at all.
Are these just rumors that got out of hand? Or are you in fact porting these games? If so, why is there no mention on your website about release info, demos, screenshots, etc.?
I'm excited to see such games get ported to linux, but when in comes to facts, I like to hear it from the horse's mouth. It just seems kinda odd that many trustworty sites report this info, and no mention is mentioned on the one place it should be, lokigames.com
I've been using Linux for many many years now, and one of my favorite rants (or discussions) is how to make Linux more commercially palatable. Invariably, I always end up holding forth on how linux will not be a force to be reckoned with until you can walk down the aisle at Fry's and see boxes and boxes of shrinkwrapped linux software.
Unfortunately, as we all know this is a two-way street. People don't want to port to linux because the base is so small, and people won't use a "niche" OS to raise the user base numbers until the apps are available. This is the classic catch-22 situation.
Well, now with companies like Loki you have managed to change the scene somewhat. I am delighted every time I walk down the aisle and see Loki software on the shelves, and consequently it seems like there are more and more companies coming to the table with linux ports or following a similar strategy as Loki.
It also seems to me that a critical mass point has been reached. Once you guys proved it was possible, lots of people started jumping on the bandwagon.
Now for my question(s). Did you set out on this path because you wanted to help kickstart this whole thing? Did you expect to be one of the major movers behind this sudden influx of commercial software for linux?
Also, the competition in your space seems to be heating up. You guys were the real "early adopters", meaning you were the first to market. However, now that you've proven it will work, I'm sure there are a lot of companies out there nipping at your heels, so how do you plan on staying ahead? How do you plan on keeping the forerunner position? Will you become a force for standardization among linux (with graphics API's, sound, etc) that will eventually trickle over into every other application space (besides just games?).
-- Gary F.
Based on your projections and knowledge of the market, when can we expect linux to be a first tier platform for game releases? I believe market share is up there with macintosh now, but I don't see that level of commitment from the industry. I'm sure you guys follow that type of thing closely.
Most games today are being programmed using Microsoft DirectX... and I'm getting curious about one thing:
//stalle -- I don't take myself for granted
Are there any standard in porting this code into Linux code, and would it speed up porting of other games?
By the way , I'd love to see Civ2 ported to linux
//stalle
My personal favourite game titles are the LucasArts' Star Wars games, especially the space combat sims "Tie Fighter" and "X Wing vs Tie Fighter." I'd love to see them ported to Linux, which leads to my question: What can we, as Linux folk, do to positively influence publishers into porting titles to Linux? Do petitions and email campaigns actually do any good, in your experience or opinion? Any other suggestions?
:-)
I suppose buying every Linux title Loki ships and therefore making Loki an enviable financial success is one of the best ways to convince other publishers, huh?
Yesterday I was hunting through my parents' garage and I found my old Atari 800 copy of Ultima III: Exodus and it got me to thinking about some of the nostalga games that are available in Windows. I've bought some of these packages (notable Sega's Smash Pack) and would like to play them natively under Linux. Have you ever considered doing native Linux ports of some of these types of older games? Would it be a trivial thing to port them to Linux, do you think or would it be more work than it was worth considering Wine?
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
And I suspect this adds a lot to the complexity of making the port for any given game. Given that games are still generally written to support Windows with Mac as an afterthought, if you could wish for one thing game developers would not do that would make your life easier, what would it be?
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
I know this is going to vary with the project, but I'm wondering how much manpower it takes to port a "typical" game from Windows to Linux. I suspect it's somwhere greater than zero and less than the amount of effort it took to write the game in the first place, but I just wonder how the time for (re)programming and QA are distributed compared to writing the game in the first place and how you allocate your staff to this (do they each work on a single game or do they move from project to project).
We haven't begun to hit the tip of the gaming iceburg. The past is wrought with not enough horse power to do both graphics and thinking/logic/ai. Right around the corner 3d cards will have their own processing power and thus give the cpu cycles back to developers. Where do you think the next 5 years of gaming is going? Care to throw out any farther fetched (timeline) ideas? Lastly, how is Loki going to position itself? Porter, Developer, Activision?
Malachi
"Life is all about strategy, mathematics and psychological perceptiveness."
The games industry is slowly moving off PCs and onto consoles, purely for their profitability. The new Playststation is being hailed as the latest nemesis of PC gaming. Do you think that consoles are going to make Linux gaming redundant, or too unprofitable to be sustained? Given that consoles are not easily user-programmable, do you think that future talent for games programming is going to be harder to find, as these proprietary boxes do not encourage people to get involved in writing their own games as the 8/16 bit computers used to?
-- Arron Shutt
I'm a gamer and I'm also a Linux user, unfortunately these two things rarely coincide. I have a win95 partition on my computer pretty much for the sole purpose of playing games, while I use Linux for everything else. It might seem that I am the perfect person to buy Loki products but I can honestly say I have never purchases a single Loki game. Why? Several reasons:
1. Limited selection of games. I don't necessarily want to spend my money on the handful of games that you've ported.
2. Games come out to late. If it's something I really wanted then I probably already bought it before I even knew you've started a port.
3. Problems with the Linux platform. I love Linux for some things, but it has a ways to go before it is a real viable gaming platform. We need better video drivers, better sound, better controller support, etc.
What exactly are you doing to address these concerns? Will you support a more diverse variety of games (let's see some RPGs!)? Will you work on beginning a port before the game in question is already finished and available for windows? Most importantly, what are you doing to address the problems with the Linux platform for gaming?
I also have a completely unrelated question. If, some time in the future, more and more companies begin doing their own in-house ports to Linux, will Loki consider developing original games?
Thank you
I am not an idiot. Please use my name to email me.
"That's right, I'm quoting myself."
-Upsilon
this is almost certainly because you have Mesa installed improperly, and it's doing software rendering rather than hardware. i've run into this problem myself... unfortunately Q3A will only run well if you have a good 3d card set up.. so take care of that and it will run like a champ (i played the Q3A demo under linux and it's sweet as all get-out, and i only have a voodoo2!)..
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
Let's suppose that five years from now, most game companies develop their software with Linux portability in mind, and release Linux versions concurrently with Windows versions (or sooner, heh). Where do you see Loki in such an environment? Do you think there will be enough of a market for game porting to support Loki? Or are you looking towards shifting your emphasis as Linux gets more mainstream support?
-- $SIGNATURE
I find it interesting that Loki has managed to establish a good reputation amoung the Linux community while still charging for its products. In other areas of entertainment, notably MP3 and DVD, the Linux community seems eager to criticize any corporation that seeks profits for the goods they produce. It seems to me like a double standard. Do you agree? If so then why do you think the discrepancy exists?
There was a similar question already, but I've seen the answer on your newsgroup. Loki won't talk about sales numbers, at least not in public. To me that means that sales aren't that great, unless there's another reason?
I'm not even that interested in dollar amounts, number of units sold, heck the number of digits in the number of units sold would be of interest!
Due to my job, I am interested in OpenGL development in high end app area as well as in the gaming area.
Games have been the driving force for good lowend GL drivers, software and hardware and I see that this pattern should continue.
My question is:
How closely are you involved with the work that VA and SGI (or others) are doing with OpenGL?
-I just work here... how am I supposed to know?
I purchased Civilization: Call to Power for Linux as soon as it hit the shelves at my local CompUSA, but I soon became discouraged over the delays between the Activision patches and your own. Specifically, while I didn't expect the Linux patch at the same time as the Windows patch, it seemed to be a bit extreme to take an 5 months to port the 1.2 patch that only took Activision 4 months to develop. What are you doing to reduce these lags?
In a related question, are you going to be porting Civilization: Call to Power II, and, if so, what are you doing to reduce the lag time between the Windows and Linux versions?
One of the advantages of the Windows platform is DirectX. although it isn't necessarily the best implementation of a multimedia / gaming API, it is standard and loads of games are written for it.
What is needed for a Linux alternative? Does Linux have a particular weak spot that needs addressing before gaming becomes as easy as under Windows?
I've noticed that most of your games have been ported and published much later than the original version of the game.
Is there any chance that in the future, you'll be doing the port while the game is in development, in order to get the Linux version out sometime around when the game is first published?
Maybe working with the developer to improve the portability of their code, so that all is needed for the Linux version is a recompile or something easy? (I think Epic did that with their UT codebase.)
-Jay Laney
This is more of several closely linked questions than anything else.
It's well known that Loki is not posting any business figures. There are one of two possible conclusions one can draw from this: 1) Loki is doing very poorly and they don't want to talk about how poorly or 2) Loki is doing extremely well and is fearfull of losing business if other publishers realize how rich the Linux game market really is.
Now, question number #1, if you're not going to give us numbers, could you indicate, in general terms, how Loki is doing. Will you be around in a year? 5 years? What is the rate of growth of companies agreeing to let you port? What are the near future projections of this rate?
Next, IF, as I suspect, the 2nd conclusion I draw above is correct, then at soem point companies will realize that they maybe better off designing and developping with a Linux port in mind to begin with. As several other posters have also wondered, where will this leave Loki? What are your plans for the time when a seperate company to port linux games is no longer needed? Are you shooting for a buy out from one of these bigger companies? I see this as a viable option as it would give some company a big edge in the Linux gaming market.
** Martin
The future of Linux depends on this: when will we get:
A. a port of The Sims (Maxis);
B. a port of Warcraft and Starcraft games (Blizzard);
C. a port of SimCity 3000 (Maxis);
D. (bonus question) Simultaneous releases of games for Linux.
The biggest question is really when you'll be part of the rollout cycle for new games, as opposed to existing games. So long as it's still Windows and Mac versions only, it's painful for me to tell my son we're not buying StarCraft right now. I've bought three releases from you guys, but I really want The Sims and I may have to install a DOS/Win partition just so I can play it.
Even rough release dates are cool, but are you guys going to be part of the new game cycle anytime soon?
Will in Seattle
Short example: I was in total love with Transport Tycoon, until the very limited underlying world model started to irritate me bigtime. A train between two major cities would unload all of its passengers on some forsaken small stop in the middle, effectively running empty half the time.
Do you even think you could build a business out of working on such problems?
I don't know if it would make much performance differance, but if a distro made setting up common gaming hardware easier and gave faster frame rates, that would be enough for me to use it. Ever tried to use a a SBLive or Voodoo 3 in Quake 3. I learned more about linux doing this than anything else. Linux has been constantly evolving into more of an everyday person's OS than an IT guy's OS, and as this happens setting up hardware must be a no brainer. I believe a gaming OS could help this area.
-- the computer doesn't want any beer, no matter how much you think it does. NEVER, EVER feed your computer beer.
I foolishly bought the Windows version of Quake III when it was released. I had assumed that id would be releasing the linux binaries to be freely downloaded from their website, much like they did for the Quake 2 linux version.
Then I read that Loki had signed to publish and maintain the linux version.
Oops on my part.
So, is there any chance that the Linux binaries will be released seperatly so that I can play q3 under linux using my windows cd? Please?
-Jay Laney
It seems like all the computer gaming magazines out there dislike Windows and DirectX because of buggy programs, but they always look to Microsoft again to fix it, despite Microsoft's track record. At the same time, they say things like "How many games does Linux have now? Six?" Do you think we'll get out of Microsoft rut within the next ten years?
----------
Not a typewriter
Hi- As a company that devotes its entire set of resources toward Linux development, what would you say to a new or existing company to convince them of the vitality of the Linux environment? And would those statements be different? Kevin
----- When it is dark enough, men see stars.
"More specifically, what hardware drivers, APIs and libraries need to be improved to make Linux a better gaming platform than that other OS?"
There are quite a number of API's out there that have Linux support (clanlib, SDL, GGI to name a few.) Most of them are pretty good, but my personal feeling is that SDL is the way to go. Its a nice clean design, there is a version 1.0, and its already very cross-platform. It definitely has the potential to become a cross-platform equivalent of Microsofts DirectX. Version 1.0 doesn't have 3D, but version 1.5 (which is in development) will support OpenGL.
OpenGL is definitely the right choice of 3D API. However, Direct3D is showing signs of seriously overtaking Direct3D in terms of functionality, so we should not complacently accept that OpenGL has "won". Some entity/organization needs to take OpenGL "by the balls" and seriously work on a decent OpenGL version 2.00, with most 1.2 extensions wrapped up into the API, and API access to new functionality (hardware bumpmapping, texture compression, maybe access to texture/surface memory buffers for dynamic/procedural textures.) As far as I can tell, SGI isn't making any real effort to do this. Someone needs to take OpenGL and update it to tackle Direct3D head-on.
The other thing that needs to happen with OpenGL on Linux is that there needs to be a standard driver interface for graphics card vendors to write drivers.
So to sum it up, in my opinion, "only" three things need to happen:
That should take care of the technical side of things ... hmm ..
Which method do you recommend, and why? I still hope for the day when I can go to the local software shop and see a Linux section.
d
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com
Ok, question:
- How do you see Linux being a succesfull gaming platform in the long run? The Windows games market allready is not much more as an afterthought for most publishers, with the consoles being the major money makers. Do you think Linux will change this? If not, how do you see the future of linux gaming and your company? As a niche market, which most major publishers won't touch, but which will leave a nice gap for you to fill? Or do you see yourself moving away from Linux and PCs in the long run, to be a more profitable company on consoles?
Has Loki considered leveraging its programming (i.e. porting) experience to other software categories? I know Loki has an ambitious schedule of porting games, but is there any possiblity of working with other software vendors on ports of their products, for example Dream Weaver, GoldMine, Quicken/QuickBooks, etc. It seems that while those applications are not as glamorous as games, I would guess they have an larger market than a game title. Thanks, Brandon Phillips
A couple of months ago I suggested a poll on the Linux Game Tome asking about the buying habits of linux gamers. Although the results are admittedly non-scientific, I thought the results were quite interesting.
Of the respondents almost two thirds had never purchased a commercial game for Linux; and their reasons for this broke down as follows:
What do you think that Loki can/has to do to remove these barriers? And if these challenges are unaddressed, what would you predict is the future of Linux gaming?
--LibBT: BitTorrent for C - small - fast - clean (Now Versio
Guess I wasn't concentrating .. there I go blabbing on and on, forgetting this was "Ask Loki President" not "Ask David" ..
I'm aware of the fact that adventure games and RPGs have significantly decreased in importance since the computer gaming market has started to address more than just the hackers and puzzlers among us. What is your opinion on the future of these genres?
It has been rumored that Loki is porting an RPG; when can we expect details to be published?
I've heard rumours about Loki porting Alpha Centauri, but I didn't find anything on it on your homepage the last time I looked. Is there any substance in these (imho) very good tidings?
Linux are starting to get quite some nice games, but we're still missing my favourite game-type; Lucasarts' adventures, such as Loom (my alltime favourite), Zak McKracken, Full Throttle, Monkey Island and several others. I'd happily buy these games, were they to be ported to Linux, eventhough I have most of them already.
A few other games I really like to see for Linux are:
A genre of games that would get a lot of gamers to consider the Linux platform is racing-games. However, I'm not into those myself, so I can't make any proper suggestions here.
Scott, On most operatings systems, you probably have a guarantee that a certain set of libraries and services exist on every machine with that OS installed on it. On Linux, you (or Redhat or SUSE or whomever) can pick and choose which components should be installed or distributed. Does this cause problems for Loki's ability to produce games which will run on all (or nearly all) Linux machines? If so, how have you overcome this problem?
Thanks and continue the good work.
"The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,
During software development, it usually appears to be easy enough to keep your code portable across architectures, as long as you don't risk mis-aligned memory access, don't use binary files excessively, and remember to test on different architectures.
I guess that things are a lot different if you have to deal with code that wasn't written with the explicit idea of being portable in the first place. How much extra effort was it to do the Alpha port of CTP? Do you think it was worth it? Will Loki continue to support Alpha and PPC architectures?
Do you port games based on customer demand or by circumstance? I'm curious as to whether I can affect which games Loki ports.
ABSOLUTELY! I really hope this gets mod'd up, because I too want to know when I'll be able to play broodwar in Linux. SC and SC:BW are the only things keeping WinDoze on my machine right now. I'd REALLY like to reclaim that space, and use it for productive purposes.
Also, are there any plans to port usefull non-game programs? Is Loki only going to stay in the game market, or are there any plans to diversify?
Hey Rob, Thanks for that tarball!
"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." - Jed Babbin
I greatly enjoy the games (CivCTP and HMM3) that I have purchased from Loki. That said there are some nagging questions that have been eating at me for some time. First I have been surprised that full screen mode for non-root users has not been a higher priority for releases. Is there any hope of this changing? Second, I have encountered some rather annoying installs and configuration problems with my system (SuSE). I know I am not alone in this. Will there be more attention to testing various distributions in the future? That said, I look forward to new Loki products. Lastly any new titles you would like to throw out to the hungry masses?
I've noticed a dearth of good Linux games being written for Windows 2000 and I was wondering when you were planning on porting games like LinCity to Windows 2000. Most of my old Win games don't work, and if you start porting games from Linux to Windows 2000, you might be able to save the OS from extinction. Do you have any firm plans in this area?
Also, could you make the explosions in this game really loud so I can taunt my boss with the sounds of my having fun? And maybe a Linux OS boss mode, so when he comes around the corner, I can toggle to a good Enlightenment screen so he'll think I'm working on something useful.
Thanks!
Will in Seattle
Security and stability are closely linked, and the game industry has often been criticised for not focusing enough on either. With the unique challenges that a game running under Linux faces (multi-user environment, ability to snoop on what a process is doing, ease of writing network proxies or bots), what does Loki do to address these issues? What should game companies in general be doing? Have you got any anecdotes about security to relate? (I know there are some from Myth II!)
--
Chris Butcher
Code Monkey
Bungie Software
I wonder about this. How many of the titles released annually are actually done in house versus outsourced? I'm not asking for actual numbers just a rough percentage. It would seem there is limited in house talent and that outsourcing things like ports makes sense to me.
Considering the average Linux user is much more intelligent then the smartest Windows user will you be looking more at games demanding more brain power and less on twitchy fingers?
We've all seen a million and one first-person shooters over the last few years, obviously starting with Doom/Wolfenstein. What do you see as the next big move in game genres and where do you see it coming from.
Until now almost all the games we've seen have been developed on Windows for Windows yet there is untapped talent and creativity in the Open Source movement. How likely is it that we will see a significant contribution to gaming from the Open Source quarter.
-- Rich
I'll begin by stating that Loki is doing extremely good work. I have run some of your demos, and they work flawlessly. Being a FreeBSD user myself however, I am a bit disappointed that all of the demos I tried wouldn't run "out of the box" under FreeBSD's binary emulation of Linux, especially because it would just be a matter of tweaking before they did.
A while ago I noticed that Heroes of Might and Magic III for Linux was out. So I grabbed the demo and tried to run it under FreeBSD --- it puked instantly. After a bit of fiddling, I found out the problem were missing syscalls in the Linux emulation layer. I spent an hour or so adding empty wrappers for the missing syscalls, and it eventually worked. Heroes 3 runs without a hiccup on my system now, but the idea I had of buying the game should it work under FreeBSD is far away now.
My question is, how hard would it be for you guys to test your games under FreeBSD's binary emulation and tweaking them until they work ? I heard rumours that the FreeBSD project had donated a box so you could do just that, is this true ? And how hard would it be to include native FreeBSD binaries on the cd's ?
(It should be mentioned that this post is FreeBSD-centric because that's the only BSD I have gained enough experience with, and it is the one I use daily. What I've said might be true of OpenBSD/NetBSD as well.)
What are Loki's goals when deciding to port linux games? What should be accomplished in order for a game to be ported?
'don't stop the roX'
The Ultima Online client should be easily portable at least.
I wanted to buy CIV:CTP and Railroad Tycoon to Linux, but I discovered (after some relentless wandering around computer stores) that I can't find Loki Software in Brazil.
:)
As buying it online is way too expensive for a student like me, I want to know what are your plans about expanding the distribution channels.
What is the presence of Loki software around the world? Will I ever be able to get my copy of Sim City 3000 on time?
---- Email is reversed
Exactly, under Windows you also need to install 3DFX drivers & miniport,turbodrivers or AGP-miniport drivers for your card. Also you need to install your 2D video drivers correctly for a game to work and install the latest DirectX, Direct3D, DirectMedia and what ever get's Direct-ed.
This has nothing do with a game working straight out of the box. (Remember getting Unreal (1) to work under Windows properly? Now that's a game that didn't work from the box)
I was very happy when you ported Eric's Solitaire, because it was a game my fiance could play. But it seems like that's the exception, and that the majority of commercial games for Linux either now or in the future will be these war mongering RPGs, 3D shooters and the like. I'm sure that these are more popular with the gaming audience as a whole, but does that mean that there's no hope for some more simple games, like maybe a nice board game collection or some card games? No, I don't want yet another tetris, but I do think that the 80's with the pacmans (pacmen?) and qberts was the pinnacle of gaming and would be happy to see more games like that show up on the shelves.
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com
Michael Danicich
When I think about the average die hard Linux user this is the next image I visual: Male, in his 20-ish, likes abstract reasoning, analytical, doing (or having done) some kind of technical study. This seems like the ideal person to play every once in a while a strategy game, if time permits.
The ideal compagny for strategy games, would be a compagny like Westwood, altough I like some games from Cavedog or Activision as well.
(Civ Call to Power or Myst2 I don't call strategy).
How come there are no Linux ports of their games yet and are you familiar with any plans from them making such a move?
I think that most of us would agree that Linux is an excellent choice of operating system for programmers, but that it would prove an exercise in frustration for most "end-users". It seems to me that (as I also consider myself a gamer), like programmers, gamers try to learn the most about their hardware and squeeze as much performance out of their OS as possible. I believe that because gamers user habits closely resemble programmers user habits, emphasis should be placed upon making Linux a viable gaming platform. Now my question is two fold:
1. Do you believe that gamers are the "missing link" between programmers and end-users, and does that in anyway affect your companies efforts?
2. What needs to be done by game companies such as your own and by the Linux community to establish Linux as a top-notch gaming platform?
Note: This is my first post to /., so I probably screwed it up somehow, please keep the laughter to a minimum.
IIRC, all of the games currently available from Loki are ports. What is the likelyhood of some Loki games that are original and native to linux? If so, will the game engine(s) be opensource/free (as defined by the fsf) software?
Low Key Games?
Our LAN parties wouldn't be the same without your cool games. Now how about distributing some chicks?
Of course, it kind of looks like IBM snapped me up first. Too bad for those poor fools who ignored the letter, huh? Well, they can't say I didn't warn them. Listen up you all! I don't want to hear any whining when we crush you! You had your chance and you BLEW IT!
I'm only a little psychotic. Really.
BTW: Mojo's evil insight is a definite necessity for crushing the competition, so you'd better hire him too.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Did you guys do that on purpose, was it a mistake on your part or was the original game like that? It is unnervingly difficult to get used to.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
A few questions: 1). Which is the preferred language for writing games on Linux? If your porting from Win32 and still want cross-platform (multiplayer, some files, etc.), then should it be the same language as that? 2). Is it possible to somehow imitate the DirectX protocols over network play? 3). Are you guys planning on porting Team Fortress 2 or Half-Life anytime soon? Or is Valve going to do that by themselves/not do it at all? Thanks
Here are the questions I'd like to hear some responses to:
1. Couldn't porting actually hurt Linux gaming in the end? That is, if you really want to see Linux succeed as a gaming platform, shouldn't you push parallel development on the target platforms, not publish on one platform and then port to others? Assuming that original development on the Linux platform (as opposed to porting) is the ultimate goal, doesn't that mean that you're essentially working towards your own obsolescence? That is, if you succeed in making Linux a successful platform for gaming, doesn't that mean that Loki writes themselves right out of the picture? How would Loki deal with a market where parallel development suddenly became the norm rather than the exception?
2. There have been various reports that the PC is actually declining as a gaming platform. Since Linux gaming is a small niche in that market, doesn't it stand to hurt you more when and if such a decline takes place? Do you see any strengths that Linux has (over say Windows and MacOS) that would help it weather a declining market more easily?
3. Consoles are hugely successful and the PC has yet to take a huge bite out of their market, despite the presence of such juggernauts as Microsoft and id Software. Can Linux actually hope to do better against consoles, where Windows has failed? If you really think that Linux can do better, could you please outline how?
4. Is Loki dedicated to just Linux? There could be a potentially profitable market with Macintosh hardware and the impending release of MacOS X. Seemingly, the BSD quality of OS X would make it a great target for games already ported to Linux. Are you considering MacOS X as a future platform?
Thanks for considering (and possibly even answering) these questions.
Regards,
matt
Curmudgeon Gamer: Not happy
My questions comes from a financial and a end user stand point. Being that linux is not known for being a "gaming OS" as it's competition from across the table(mainly microsoft) due to the fact that it does not recieve third party support in the gaming arena, do you think this is a drawback to the linux community? id software is the only major gaming company supporting linux, what advantages and disadvantages does that hold for id software finacially and can there income comming from the linux users compare to the income that is gained from windows users. Lastly do you think it is foolish for other major gamining companies not to take advantage of the opportunites linux may have?
Are there other porting plans, for example Worms Armegeddon, in the works? Remembering that Worms was ported to Beos not too long ago . . .
Do you plan on writing any games in a similar fashion as Parsec?
Let S_n = {nst+us+vt : s,t in Z \ {0}, u,v in {-1,1}}. For all n in Z where |n| > 2, Z \ S_n is infinite... right?
I am just wondering if you have had any dealings in acquireing games from EA, Sierra, or Microsoft . I am just wanting to play games such as HalfLife, Homeworld, Need For Speed, Final Fantasy, and Ages of Empires natively under Linux. Oh, and don't forget classics such as Space Quest, Leisure Suite Larry, and others.
IMHO, it would help the Linux game market temendously if you would include Windows installers on your cd's, for people who will spend most of their time playing games in Windows but want to support the Linux game market.
This is especially for important for games that use hardware acceleration, as Linux is far behind Windows in this area, unless you have a Voodoo card. For example (and I know this was mostly Carmack's decision) Quake 3 was released on platform specific cd's. I dual boot Debian and Win2000 on my main PC, and have an iMac at home that I hawl along to lan parties. I really wanted to buy the Mac or Linux (I wanted the tin box!) version of the game, but ended up getting the Windows box instead. I have a TNT2 card, which is awsome in the Evil OS but is pittiful under X.
I want to support the Linux and Mac platforms (or Linux on Mac, even better, and thanks for porting some games to LinuxPPC). But I think I'm a typical consumer and gamer in that I want to play the game now more than I want to support alternative platforms. I don't want to wait for XFree 4.0, I don't want to wait for Carmack to get around to releasing platform binaries, which he said he would release in late January (unless they're burried on id's site, I just looked....). I want to play the game *now* with my friends while its new and cool, with acceptable performance; while I hate it, the only option for me now is Windows. Including installers might not be possible for all games, but for some it would seem very easy to do, ie Quake 3 and Myth 2.
I hope the Linux game market grow by leaps and bounds, and I think including Win and Mac binaries on your CD's would go a long way to accomplish that goal (and boost your income), by increasing sales among poeple who want to support Linux but want to play under Windows.
What can Loki do about support for simulator-related game hardware equipment? If one were to make or port a flight sim (driving sim, anything else associated with specialized controllers) for Linux, the optional hardware (joysticks, control panels, pedals, etc.) should be supported, right?
Does A3D have any plans to release the A3D 3D sound programming stuff to be used for Linux? If so, will A3D work with the Loki programmers to get the 3D sound working?
--
Has porting to other OSes (BeOS maybe?) ever been considered? Or does the limited userbase of OSes other than Linux rule this out?
What games are you guys planning on porting/releasing this year and are any of them from Westwood Studios i.e. the C&C titles?
"Klaatu, verada, necktie!" -Ash
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I'm trying to run a petition (http://sb.drtwister.com/linux/) to get a game developer to agree to a Linux version before the game's released -- any recommendations? Are you concerned that eventually, game companies will start developing Linux versions of their games, and you guys will be outta work?
damned vulpine http://sb.drtwister.com/
Roblimo, when you had just started as /. editor, you messed up big time by writing up something that was terribly false, and then rewriting your story later _without_ including an 'Update:' part. And here you are doing it again. You can't just post something, let people react to that, and then change it behind their backs!!
If the game was designed so that gameplay changes were easily patched through data files common to multiple platforms, then it wouldn't be a problem. But I've seen many an EQ patch that changes the .exe for the game, so I doubt EQ is that easy to work with on multiple clients.
As for open-source projects along these lines, don't forget to follow the link in my sig to WorldForge ... it's moving about as fast as any MMORPG takes to be developed, and they're developing far more than a single game. It's actually a full MMORPG development system, including a server/client protocol, various servers and clients, support for many different game worlds (and not just RPGs) and full customization of one's own hosted server, plus a fully developed fantasy roleplaying world to give everyone something to play while the community builds.
WF isn't going to be finished next week ... there's always room for one more new developer or artist to help out. (Did I mention that there's actually a large base of artists contributing as well? It's not just someone's comp sci project.) For those who just want to play, it's in the early stages, but I've seen entire fan communities build around games that still had over 6 months before release, and they had far less substance released for them to see. So there's no reason you can't keep an active eye on WF, and you actually get to see what's going on (and put in your 2 bits if you want).
You know what to do with the HELLO. ...
Help create an open-source world
This comment was posted by Anonymous Coward and so starts with a score of 0. It would have to be moderated up to get a higher score. Only logged-in user's posts start with a score other than 0.
Gamma Testing - Where testing is extended to the full user community (AKA Shipping the Program)
The Ultima online client checks everytime it is connected for any updates and applies them before you play. Because of this I believe the server assumes (reasonably) that all clients are at the latest patch level.
In the case of a Linux version this would require the patches for the Linux version to be available immediately they are for the Windows client. So the Linux client would need to be supported by a team very closely allied with the main development team (and require ongoing commitment).
I must admit that my experience of UA is somewhat out of date (I played the game for a couple of months and gave up). But the hot patching was endemic (at least once a week) while I was playing.
Gamma Testing - Where testing is extended to the full user community (AKA Shipping the Program)
What is your view on emulators? Do you forsee them becoming more popular, thanks to the general openness of the linux community (opposed to the dos/win95 emu community who usually keep the sources to themselves)? How about licensing some old arcade roms from the now-defucnt golden oldies, and including them on a CD with MAME?
I noted that for the new Millenium(sorta), you resolved to make a comercial quality linux only game. Are you still quite serious about this? And have you been thinking what genre game you will do? Anything juicy you wanna say? Just between you and me? ;)
Although this sounds cool, this may be difficult to pull off. Some may not even elect to try if they have to take a lot of vacation time, or are poor students that can't afford the air fare. As it was, I understand that it was a challenge to get participants for the first one. Many I talked to at the Hack were either students at Georgia Tech, worked locally, or were going to be there anyway for the Linux Showcase. Only a handful traveled any appreciable distance for the Hack (though one did come from Germany!).
Given these considerations, what are your current thoughts on the next Hack? Will you follow the same format last year and have it dove-tail into the Atlanta Linux Showcase or similar program? Will it also focus on a single game? Or will you have multiple games? Do you have some games in mind already, and, if so, what are they?
Cheers!
Mark
MAC | A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
So Loki as a company exists for what purpose? What is the run rate? What do you see its future as?
What paradigm shifts could move gaming to the linux platform? Is that even a good idea? (well other than accel. 3D under some windowed environment)
da'fly
I've noticed a lot of people asking about Blizzard ports, particularly Warcraft/Starcraft, and others asking about Westwood Studios Command&Conquer ports. I personally think Cavedog's products are far superior. Is there any chance of you porting Total Annihilation or similar titles?
I've heard rumors that Loki is considering developing new games, as opposed to merely porting existing games. I have a great idea for a new game. Whom should I contact?
For the entire passage of this millenium I have hunted all possible stores in two of Irelands largest cities (Dublin and Belfast) without finding a single copy of QIIIA for linux. I asked, I asked if they could order it, but I still cannot get it. I tried Game, Electronic Boutique, HMV, Virgin, Dixons, Easons and any other shop I saw with any games.
I do not want to buy this off the web, I want a person to hand it over to me and register that a human being does want to choose.
In the process of the hunt, I did find a lonely copy of Quake the Gathering and though what a perfect acquisition to go with Sant Carmachs GPL'd Quake, so I bought it and asked again about QIII.
If anyone can tell me where I can acquire Quake III in Ireland, please do.
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
I know many linux users will not buy ported games because they are commercial, closed source products. Have you ever thought of how to justify selling linux-ports? Do you think this attitude affects sales? Do you think that games are the exception to the linux community's attitude towards free/non-free software?
Is Loki only concentrating on porting games to Linux? I mean, are you considering to expand it to perhaps writing and publishing your own Linux titles?