Slashdot Mirror
Eliminating Notebook Keyboards
Wordman writes "A story on Yahoo indicates that Apple (working with Wacom) has plans to provide pen-based computing in place of/in addition to keyboard input on future power books. The story quotes an unnamed source saying "The idea is to do away with the keyboard." The scheme would include the handwriting recognition system from Newton OS 2.x (which, contrary to popular rumors, is excellent). The "erase" abiliy of Wacom tablets would also be supported." I dunno - I really do find a keyboard a wonderful way to get things done - better than my handwriting, that's for sure. Thanks to Matthew for pointing out the original article at ZD-Net.
Get a Psion MX5 or Ericsson MC218 - they do both keyboard and writing...
-- http://z80.org - all opinions, all the time --
This would not be a good idea in my mind. A lot of creative types prefer the powerbook to any x86 offering, and not having a keyboard is going to slow their productivity. Unless there is some super effective voice recognition software that Apple has not told us about, this concept will fail.
I know a lot of people that could never consider a non-keyboard laptop. Who ever heard of writing 60 words per minute...or more? 60's just how fast I type. I've seen good typists go to 180 wpm. There's no possible way to get that with a stylus...
Take the mouse away and you destroy the next big market that is First-Person-Shooters-on-Laptops. Same goes for keyboards, of course. I can't imagine running around and shooting by drawing lines on a touch screen or digitizer. Give me direct neural access and we can talk about trashing mice and keyboards, but no sooner.
Yes. No. Uh Huh... :-) And, no offence to Dictator For Life, but exactly, muddled. It's been a real experiance to start reading SlashDot again lately.
I guess, in a way, I've forgot what things can be like here, and I forgot the rules of SlashDot (and, actually, they are just carryovers from UseNet).
- Never just type the thoughts in your head, they feed the trolls.
- If you throw out a bad idea, someone will make you regret even saying a word.
- If you are not crystal clear about what your saying, someone will take it out of your intent, and define a phrase to mean something other than what the premise of your statement truely was.
- Flame wars WILL start at the drop of a hat, cover your ass in every way, including spee^Hlling.
- Follow the mob mentality, going against the grain is pointless, and even more dangerous if your points are valid and based in fact (it will only lead to more argument.
- Better to lurk and learn than post, unless you have something truely profound to say.
- Never post FIRST or LAST, blend into the croud. Early posts are disreguarded as meaningless "first post" attempts, even if they have true content. Late posts spew onto the second or third page, and never get read.
Of course, there are more details, but... Ya know what I mean. Lessons can be learned from the mistakes of even the most high profile posters. Take all the good BP has done for Linux and Debain. Look at how not following the SlashDot unwritten rules as suckered even him into comming off as a "bad guy" or "idiot" when in fact he really has done a lot of good for the community. All the good was washed away in a heartbeat by gut level reactions, mud slinging, and flames... I think it's happened to PV also, and he is fairly silent now days as well.I think you would be lucky to ever get anyone like Bob Young to comment on SlashDot EVERY for these exact reasons. Dispite how cool (IMHO) it would be to have a forum where EVERYONE can just voice an opinion, and DISCUSS ideas, it will never happen. When a nobody like me has a hard time bouncing ideas off people, could you even imagine how insane people would get if someone who is actually important to the Linux community would get harassed publically? Every little off the cuff word would go down as the one and only opinion of that person. They would be held to those words, and never be able to live them down. Think... "Yea, maybe we will consider working with the Debian guys on a joint packaging format, taking the best of .rpm and .deb for something better." Great idea, but, we have created a forum where these ideas can NOT be voiced. Why? Because people read WAY too much into every word these people say... if it didn't work, the person is a failure. If it's a bad idea, the person is perminately labeled an idiot. If it shows any promise, the community will push relentlessly for results.
All these are reasons that the LSB was not making it "easy" to see where they were going with ideas. All these reasons are why the Debian "private" mailing list even existed. All these reasons are why no one knows how closely KDE and Gnome developers REALLY work together....
Sad social side effect of "open-ness" is that the trolls DO get a lot of attention. When in reality, NO ONE should have to DEFEND thier ideas, they should be openly and warmly accepted. Good or bad, any idea is better than no discussion of ideas. But, the reality of places like SlashDot (and in the old days UseNet) is that, like in much of life, it's easier to criticize than create. It's easier to tear down than to build. So, why try when your efforts are only going to get sand kicked in your face.
That's why people like Espy were TRUELY great. They managed to walk that fine line of maintaining his creative disposition, working hard at something cool, and never letting the fear of criticism stop him from doing something to benifit the Open Source community. We need more people like that.
Yea, I was muddled. I repeat, Yes, Dictator For Life is correct, my post is muddled. I just read an article, said to myself WTF, your going to have to PRY the keyboard out of my hands before you get me to use a tablet on a laptop! and I sprawled out a few unclear lines.
My meaning was that the importance, acceptance, and widespread promotion of teaching the skills of touch typing had faded for some years after approximately the 1950's. And the importance of teaching touch typing has regained an important place in American society with the widespread use of computers and the internet, growing rapidly during the 1990's and continuing today.
Younger people today generally type a great deal more than those between 35 and 55 years old. Therefore it seems to me that this product would appeal more significantly to those in the older age bracket.
So, I think I'll probably take this as my que to again drop back into obscurity, and not post to Slashdot for another year or so (as long as it takes me to forget that I shouldn't, and make the same mistake again).
Yes, I expect a flury of flames to follow this post. Have Fun.
Pen input is a lot slower than keyboard input. I have a Wacom tablet which I use all the time for drawing, but it's much slower than the keyboard for the web or (especially) typing/programming.
What I WOULD like to see is a phantom keyboard.. a touch sensitive (or proximity-sensitive) overlay on the screen which would fade away when your hands weren't near it. It would also be kind of cool if you could type in the air (holograms) or on a nearby surface, but I think most of us would probably need the tactile feedback.
Lots of people are raising issues, like "I won't be able to do CAD or Fluid Dynamics calculations or write kernel patches, if I don't have a keyboard!"
People... this is a laptop! Not the desktop. Most people I know only get a laptop after they have a non-mobile workstation they're happy with. (A few students, maybe, are unable to afford both and decide for the portability. Avoid a keyboardless laptop, if this means you.)
Plug a keyboard in the side if you need to type directly, or hot-synch it with your desk machine. Use it as you would use a clipboard. Collect data in the field. Browse the w^4 [wireless world-wide web]. Use it to preview your digital camera's results.
For the occasional passphrase or a few longhand commands, bring up a half-screen touch-sensitive keyboard, just like the tiny ones available on smaller devices.
Personally, I don't believe in "wrist rests" lining the keyboard, and most of today's laptops put the pointing device (pad, ball, nub) near the thumbs. I'd rejoice if I could return to laptop designs that delete that extra two inches. I'd like a flip-cover instead of a keyboard, or a case-hardened screen that didn't even need a flip-cover, most of all.
[
I highly doubt that Apple is making a keyboardless PowerBook... wouldn't that be like the rebirth of the Newton? Apple would be kicking theirselves in the balls if they did that, first it would completely fuck up their relationship with Palm, and second it would be a HUGE embarrassment to Apple, the industry would laugh! Now, the ONLY thing i can think that Apple is doing along the lines of keyboardless computing would be a web pad. Like a screen that you could carry around that you could surf the net while watching TV or on the toliet (It could be used with AirPort). It would make sense since they have a hole in their product matrix. I think the question you sould be asking yourself should be: What would be the portable version of the G4 Cube? (Web pad?)
- Danny
As someone with experience in this field (I worked at GRiD Systems with Jeff Hawkins before he went to Palm), I can say that no matter how fast or how accurate the handwriting recognition, it is an order of magnitude slower than a keyboard. When I was at GRiD I worked on numerous laptops with built-in digitizing tables behind the display like what Apple is describing.
This type of interface has only limited usage for real computing. For PDAs, it's fine, but for real work (i.e. word processing, etc.) it is terrible. While at GRiD we focused on certain vertical markets where handwriting was a benifit. Basically the software would contain the equivilent of paper forms which the user could fill out. The idea was to minimize the amount one would have to write.
Besides, handwriting recognition is horribly difficult to decode. Think about trying to distinguish between a n'n' and an 'r', for example, or an 'a' and a 'd'. The main reason Jeff Hawkins developed grafitti was to make it far easier to decode the letters. He tried to push it at GRiD, but they weren't interested. GRiD is now nowhere to be seen.
This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
I think carrying around an external keyboard AND a laptop computer is bit cumbersome, to say the least. Laptops are supposed to have everything integrated into them so you don't absolutely need an external device, like a keyboard or mouse. If you're going to have lots of stuff plugged into them, get a desktop.
We aren't luddites that complain whenever someone comes up with a new idea. We are Slashdotters who complain whenever someone comes up with a bad idea. There are few here who are so closed-minded to think that anything new sucks.
Ralph: "Me fail english? That's unpossible!"
The keyboard is the wrong place to put a device to be written on. That device needs to go on top of the LCD display where the writing being done is very directly placed where it belongs, instead of having to look one place and wave your hand around in the other. Besides, how are you gonna hit ctrl-alt-delete or ctrl-alt-escape or whatever the die-now key combination is for a mac without a keyboard? Shit breaks, and cycling the power is very often not necessary
-S
1) The Newton's handwriging recognition is the coolest thing I've ever seen. It's excellent.
2) Pen based computers can be really cool.. and do a great many things for you.. in many ways, being better than a computer.
3) A laptop, however, is not what I have in mind.
I bought a laptop so I could do the *same* things I do on my desktop while on the road. I can play games, code, do everything.. I *want* a keyboard.
From a tablet, portable application point of view, pen-based is great.
Actually, when you think about it... you have a computer without a floppy (apple), a mouse with no buttons (apple) and now a laptop without a keyboard (apple)... what's next, a computerless computer? :)
On the real though, I see them coming out with a really kick ass wearable.
witty sig goes here
from 2F05, Lisa on Ice
The problem with writing on a computer instead of typing on one is that of input speed. I can type almost at speaking speed, but I doubt that many people can do that without extensive use of short-hand. This is exactly why electronic-notepad-type computers (one panel, say 7x10 inches, with most of it being a touch-sensitive screen and maybe a spot to put the stylus) will never catch on -- I for one can take notes much faster on a keyoard than I can on paper, and I assume this is true for almost anyone who can type decently, just because making one letter on a keyboard involves exactly one motion with one finger. However, writing with a hand involves several motions with the whole wrist.
Don't get me wrong, having a palm-pilot is great for quick notes-to-self and maybe keeping your passwords, but if something without a keyboard tries to become as functional as an operating system, it will most definitely not be better than a VAIO laptop.
I think the days of Star Trek-style PADDs are very far off.
-S
Actually, the latest PowerBook (and iBook) allow removal of just the keyboard (this is the accass means to the internal components).
This would allow anyone so inclined to replace the keyboard with a rather large and functiol writing surface. Also with a keyboard installed, the trackpad area would still be available.
I'd like to have something like this to jot notes and diagrams in meetings.
I do understand your point, I just don't think that such a device would be viable in today's market. Considering that one can purchase PDA's (read: Palm & Handspring) that cost only a couple of hundred dollars that can cover most tasks that I can think of that a device like this is suited to. I cannot see someone paying $1000+ for a large, fast processor, big hard drive, big viewscreen, etc.
To counter your complaint about switching between mouse and keyboard, I think we would be better off pushing an easy to use one-handed keyboard. I believe there is such a device available on the commercial market. I do know that an F-16 pilot has such a device that can be used to type one-handed with his/her left hand and fly with the right hand. I think it may be difficult to master such a device, but prolly no more so than the qwerty keyboard.
This is a perfect troll. maks a valid point, but does it in such away as to provoke response.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Granted, for graphics programs this would be good, however, as usable as a sylus keyboard a la some handhelds, while allowing programs to function has some obvious problems. Keyboards are useful because you can type quickly on them, tapping with a pen device just isnt that fast... regardless of what your doing.
This brings the issue of having an addon keyboard... all well and good but now you have something else to lug around... sure its not a major inconvinience but it still is a bother.
I guess my main point is perhapse this is better suited to a graphics only product... a pad with LCD and photoshop and a 20 gig hard drive... that i can see, but having a laptop with touch key pad just doesn't appeal to me.
Don't like the product? Then don't buy it. Steve Jobs may be an asshole, but he's not holding a gun to your head...
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
Maybe you want a webpad. Maybe you want to use it for portable photoshop. Maybe you want a portable machine the size of the LCD panel on a laptop.
Maybe if you don't like it, you don't have to buy one, and you can just buy a different company's product, or even an Apple product which HAS a keyboard.
... so how apple thinks they can get a computer to read my writing is beyond me. I've ALWAYS been shitty at writing... crabbed, cramped writing, sloppy, painful. But I type at 70wpm. No way I'm going to use a pentop. Hell... I TAP-TYPE faster than I write (on my Palm).
Raven
And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor
"I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.
I am real new to using Linux. I haven't even installed it yet. But does anyone know of any of thouse touchscreen monitor kits where you add on that extra screen that works with linux and one of those Graphical UIs for Linux. I have looked at a bunch but they seem to only be for Windows. :(
I can't imagine why Apple would think it would succeed now.
sulli
sulli
RTFJ.
With a proper LCD touchscreen panel, is it feasable to create a virtual keyboard that you can type on?
Implications: A laptop that folds out to reveal two such screens and no keyboard. A pad device that while typing is reminicent of the old Tandy100, but otherwise is a really good tablet/writing/watever pad computer.
Start Running Better Polls
I agree that most of the posts are missing the point. I Have a Newton 120, on which the handwriting recognition is slow, and I still loved to use it. The ability to switch between writing a drawing instantly is invaluable to me. I use it all the time, and I have had it for about 4 years now!
/.ers could use a little more of!)
When I am in creative mode I love to be able to make a sketch and then write about it some more, and then modify the sketch etc. For this kind of work what I imagine this product would be, sounds invaluable. I would consider buying one, in ADDITION to my laptop. I am planning on buying a Newton 2000 off one of those auction sites in the near future because I love the handwriting recognition feature that much! don't knock it if you havn't tried it, which from reading a lot of the posts, most people haven't.
Yes I type faster. And when I am coding I like to type. But when I am writing a letter, or doing some creative thinking I much prefer hand writing. There is something more wholesome about writing. Sometimes I even leave off the recognition on my Newton and print a letter to a friend long hand. They think it's neat, and appreciate the fact that I took the time to write it out. When I write by hand I tend to think more about what I am writing. (Something many of the
/.ers need to broaden there horizons. Instead of thinking about how you wouldn't want to use such a product get creative, and try and think of ways that you would want to use it. What situations is it right for? Who is it right for? Get out of your "It's not exactly right for me so nobody will want it," frame of mind and into a "somebody who only has two fingers on each hand due to a terrible accident would really find this to be a life saver," mode of thinking. Be creative instead of critical. It will get you a lot farther.
I for one think a product like this could revolutionize the way people think about computing, and in particular interfaces. Apple spawned the last huge interface change, and I think for the better. Maybe they are set to do it again!
Youthinkyouhaveprobl....ems??...I....actuallytypef aster...then...Icanthink.Quityourbitchin g...anddosomethingbe...tterwithyourtime.
Friends don't let friends use multiple inheritance.
Those geniuses had done better by putting the mouse away instead of the keyboard. I have never heard of anybody with a "keyboard arm", while the "mouse arm" is an official disease by now.
When they'll have touch screen-like devices for this virtual keyboard of them, the mouse would probably disappear as well. But what I really don't understand is that such a usability inventor as Apple didn't drop the mouse for something better on their standard hardware long before. Instead actually, they're still proud that they made that brainless invention ppopular.
A mouse is a silly and irritating input device, and I'd love to see it replaced with touch screens or pens or whatever other devices there are. We can't wait for Microsoft to invent that usability, for it has never been their job. Instead, we'll have to trust on Apple to change our view on computers again.
But if it takes much longer than this I'll have a mouse arm myself.
It's... It's...
"We can confirm that Debian does *not* ship the version with the trojan horse. Our version predates it." [CA-2002-28]
Dammit, don't give me alternatives! Choices make my little head hurt!
I can see this working if the primary use of the laptop is to make menu selections, or for short input. But basically you're looking at a Palm on steroids.
If you will be using the laptop for business purposes, I'd think a keyboard would make it easier to write letters, create reports and fill in a spreadsheet.
For me, the Newton's failure is summed up by the fact that nobody thought to tell the 1.0 model that punctuation characters are not part of the alphabet, but they did find time to plant dozens of silly easter eggs!
I very much doubt if the Newton as such will come back. Why resurrect a dead OS when there are established OSs for the same application with thousands of developers who know how to use them? On the other hand, if the Newton recognition technology were ressurected in a MacOS tablet, my prejudice against that platform might go by the board.
My second biggest gripe about the Newton (the first was the sloppy/pretentious overall design) was that the it wasn't about 50% bigger.
What kind of dumb-arse retro computer crap is this Jobs guy up to anyway? The headline talks about notebooks with no keyboard, but then using handwriting instead. Not "choice of input device". Well, handwriting (designed for bird quills) is an obsolete transitional technology.
If you're going to replace keyboard then you should go back to cuneiform! Yeah, that's the ticket. Provide a stylus and chisel, and have the user hammer patterns into the screen. Much nicer than scratching at a pad like a chicken with a goose feather caught in its foot.
While I can really imagine a tablet would be useful to me as a secondary choice -- after all, I still scribble on a legal pad sometimes, and it would be nice to capture that -- I would be concerned about the potential for aggravating RSI in myself and others. It's already a pretty serious problem for many, and you don't always know its going to strike you until its too late.
Ugh, this is horrid, and just another example of why I don't like apples software R&D department (there hardware department is nice though, great proccessors).
I can write at about, err, a page per hour, a page per 90 minutes if I need it to be legible (begining to see why I perfer computers? heh:) but I can type up a page in about 20minutes (depending on difficulty of orignal thought, this is compleatly free-form here folks, no willy-nilly sissy copying stuff, I am talking about pure orignal thought!).
At a pure typing speed I can probebly do a page in 10-15 minutes (I have never actualy time myself on just rut page entry.)
hmm, lets see, 10 minutes, or 90 minutes, 10 minutes, or 90 minutes.
Last time I tried to use an OCR (closest I've used to a handwritting reconiction program) I had to re-type over 40% of the work, even worse, I had to go and spend over an hour correcting the mistakes that the computer had entered into my work!
Now I admit that a handwritting system would be **VERY VERY** handy for math problems, but it would have to have what would be the equivilent of almost an AI in terms of its problem form reconition (just look at how hard it is to enter a problem on a TI calculator and all of the parathesis's that are needed and you'll see what I mean).
But as it is, there is no way in the world that i would want to have to do anything by just writting in it.
http://www.slashdot.org/
Sheesh, it is MUCH easier to type that in that to write it in! (then again, I may start using my bookmarks if such a hand-writting system became common place on all laptops!)
Can you imagin having to WRITE IN your credit card number? Eech, destroys the whole point on online conviencence.
This reminds me of the yee-old nerd joke about the new data storage format, its double sided, variable density, highly portable, and it supports all known charecter sets.
Its call a paper and pencil.
Heh, ok ok, old, but still good.
Anyways, my point here is that Apple is just taking a step backwards, as it is, I refuse to by a Palm PC, instead I am opting for a Pocket sized PC (which come standard with a 98% or so keyboard, which is still too small for me actualy, I can't even type right on those older Macintosh keyboards, as it is I am perfetly happy with my Microsoft Natural Keyboard, the orignal models!)
Sheesh, and with the size of my writting, and the known accurecy of Watcoms pens (their only good pens cost almost as much as a laptop!) there is no way that I am going to buy, or even suggest (or think about suggesting. . . . ) such a poorly designed piece of equipment.
Ugh, knowing apple its likely to be see through too!
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
However, a notebook computer that operated as a keyboardless slate would be excellent. Have you ever tried using a regular notebook while standing (and, no, not standing over a desk on which the notebook is sitting)? It's nearly impossible; you have to balance the thing in one palm while doing the old hunt-n-peck with the other hand. A notebook with a detachable keyboard (or, preferably, one that folded back behind the screen, a little like that high-end WinCE one a while back) would be great for quick jotting and note-taking, like writing on a clipboard. It would also make diagramming a piece of cake. The mouse is a lousy input device for drawing, IMHO. I use a drawing tablet for some of my work, and going back and forth between that and the keyboard is a pain in the ass.
Pen and voice input could definately be used more and better than they currently are, especially in conjunction with a keyboard. There have been so many times I've wanted to have a little Graphitti floater on-screen so I can execute the occasional keystroke when I'm using a tablet. Tablets, however, are almost exclusively seen as computer illustrator's tools and support for them has matched that preconception. If Apple puts a decent pen-based input device in a general-purpose notebook, there will potentially be a lot more interest in developing for non-keyboard, non-mouse input interfaces.
Ah, but for The Rest Of Them, keyboards don't Just Work reliably either. If only you could see my mom try to type...
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
It it still going to be inconvenient for lefties, even with the Newton recognition. The main problem with left handed writing is that it is difficult to see what you are writing. This is why most lefties write with a hooked wrist or angle the writing surface. This is more difficult to do on an (often small) LCD with a bezel around the edge that makes things uncomfortable.
Even more annoying for general pen input is the convention of having vertical scroll bars on the right side of a window. When trying to scroll with a left hand you can't see the text scrolling by because the hand occludes the display. There are some apps for the Palm that are "lefty aware" and allow the user to select the scroll bar placement. Options such as this should really be provided by the OS in order to implement this feature transparently on all apps.
I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
My handwriting is so bad that it's considered a learning disability. On top of that, I simply cannot really think and write at the same tie --although I can type and think at the same time-- apparently, it has something to do with which nuerons (sp?) fire during each activity.
MY handwriting was why I started using computers in the first place; okay, fine, Zork was a factor too
------- Oh damn.... the Sigfile escaped... -Great OM
blessings,
"Only in their dreams can men truly be free 'twas always thus, and always thus will be."
--Tom Schulman
they are supposed to also be red in color and have two white knobs - one in each lower corner.
Uh...buddy? Good friend? Stop your apple bashing, all of you! Just because someone, even Yahoo, reports an Apple RUMOR does not mean it's true. I mean, think about it. Now that you've thought about the likelihood that they're gonna destroy all of their keyboards and use a super-inefficient handwriting system instead, and realized that it is basically nil, you can stop this senseless Apple bashing. Thanks.
Don't get me wrong, I'm an avid sylus fan -- I couldn't live without my PalmPilot III. Although handwriting recognition software is a great form of input, it is slow and tedious. For short commands and tasks that don't demand a lot of input, stylus pads are wonderful.
There is another option that mobile computer enthusiasts have known about for some time now. It's not revolutionary, but it's certainly useful. Feast your eyes on the twiddler.
And for you Palm Pilot enthusiasts, check out the TwiddleHack. With a portable sync cable, a little solder, battery case, and a couple watch batteries, you've got yourself a one-handed keyboard for your Pilot!
assert(expired(knowledge));
The Newt had HWR, but it didn't work well till the version 2.0 (MP130) machines came out. That's why Grafitti was developed, as a replacemnt for the HWR on the early newts.
Just for fun, I've got Grafitti loaded on my MessagePad 2100. I just need to remind myself why I don't want one of those nice sleek Palms.
is here.
Live asian bondage goat porn?
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Perhaps this is yet another one of Apple's (in)famous mole hunts designed to plug up leaks. I mean, Apple's done some pretty stupid things in its time (Performa, anybody?), but Steve would have to be a FUCKING MORON to completely remove a keyboard from a computer while pen-based input and (especially) voice input are still less useful than keyboard input.
Look at the Psion Revo; it's the same width and thickness as a Palm V, only longer. If they can fit a keyboard on that thing, then they can make them small enough even for the tiniest of notebooks.
-Karl
The ironic part is that someone made this into a little Newton movie, complete with sound, available for free download...
Very very fun to see Palm Pilot owners' faces drop when I showed them a movie making fun of the Newton, on my MessagePad, playing with full motion and sound (albeit in 4-bit greyscale), back in 1997.... Got yr 200 MHz StrongARM lovin', right here.
--
That would solve the problems created by spilling hot coffee all over the keyboard and ruining it.. Oh.. Wait..
air and light and time and space
Slashdot graffiti may start to look more like its title implies!
NightHawk
Tyranny =Gov. choosing how much power to give the People.
It sounds great, and would be for word processing, but consider applications that are mapped to use keyboards... 3d Modelling, Spredsheets, hell even games, all would have to be re-written if there wasn't a keyboard. Heck even your OS, web browser and email client would need re-writing... no Slashdot surfing for one.
Still a good idea, and one step closer to having the Newton back.
I'm not sure what the goal of getting rid of the keyboard is - as others have already said, typing is faster and easier. One advantage *could* be to make the laptop smaller, but you are always constrained by screen size, anyway.
Now, if Apple wants to come out with a head-mounted display that I could plug into a Palm/Handspring-style device, *then* I'd be interested.
Wind
Well, i am still wondering why no one is making an Itsy, are they that expensive???? I mean a keyboard for a PDA is cool, but where are you gonna use it? it destroys the whole "carry it in your hand and work on it with the other" If they could ever get Voice Recognition working right, I forsee it spelling the end of laptops. The lines between laptop/palmtop/PDA are blurring, proper voice recognition would mean that we could get rid of the keyboard. IBM microdrives in a PDA with a StrongArm anyone? I would be first in line!
Is there anyone here who can write (for a recognition system) as fast as they can type? I doubt it - I can't even write in my normal sloppy script as quickly as I type. This idea seems cool at first but really sucks.
One good product Wacom makes can be seen here: Graphire 2. This pen and mouse combo seems pretty decent - a wireless mouse and a pen input tablet all in one. Don't worry about that mouse; it communicates with the pad somehow.
I just have one problem with voice recognition... Let's just say you're writing your essay and pacing your room while writing it, stubbing your toe and swearing every now and then. Now won't that look good in your report! Especially if you spill coffee on yourself and start swearing non-stop for oh, 8 pages? :)
--- I used to moderate, then I read the -1 articles and decided having to filter through them was not worth it.
...the first program somebody is going to write for it will be an on-screen keyboard.
Over the years computer users have been introduced to many things supposed to minimize use of the keyboard, if not eliminating it all together.
Mice, well mice have their uses. I use mine mostly for GIMP and playing Quake. Usually, if I can get away with typing and using keyboard shortcuts I'm happy.
Speech input. I've tried this this to. I wasn't impressed. Even if speech recognition got to the point where it was usable, I don't think I'd like to use it. I don't think vi would appreciate being talked to. Keyboard fenesse (ahh spelling) is the only way to go. Also imagine a computer lab with 30+ people all talking to their computers.
Touch input. Every system i've tried has been painstakingly slow, and difficult to use.
Direct brain input. Slap a fance name on this one, and its what I'd use. I think that from what I've seen this is the only thing that would get me to give up my keyboard. But, until then I will continue to type my why to carpal tunnel syndrom (not that I belive in that either
--
OK, so I can't sppel, so sue me.
--
___________________________________
Linux by Libranet - The TOP Desktop
Libranet GNU/Linux
This would be nice if it was replaced by a liquid crystal touch sensitive pad. Hit a button, it lights up as a touch keyboard, hit it again you've got a tablet. And let users customize buttons here and there :) Makes me drool
Mental incapability and DOS. Kinda go together, dont'cha think?
It's not at all processor-dependent. It's person-dependent don't you think? Once a person's writing speeds beyond 25 wpm or so, it becomes too messy (and this is for 90% of people or so) for today's software to recognize, no matter what processor that software is running on.
There comes a time in every man's life when he must say, "No mother! I do not want any more Jell-O!"
hehe... oooops. You are correct. it should have read:
This is a perfect troll. maks a valid point, but does it in such away as to provoke an angry, or knee jerk, response.
of course a perfect post
Thanks for the thoughtfull response to my accidental troll.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Sorry, just dreaming now. I'd love to have a Twiddler w/Bluetooth capabilities.
assert(expired(knowledge));
I never post while not loged in. This is not me.
"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." - Jed Babbin
Isn't this just sort of a web tablet in disguise? Without a keyboard there isn't any need for the traditional two-paned laptop. Instead you'll just have an LCD screen used for both input and output. I've been hearing about these things for years but have yet to see one that really works and is here now - if there was, I'd buy it. Nothing like reading Slashdot on the shitter :)
--
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
This isn't me.
"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." - Jed Babbin
This moronic approach has good chances
to succeed in destroying whatever is
left of apple's share of the market.
Whatever Micro$oft was not been able to do
to the MAC will be done by the brain dead
marketing dept of Apple.
for some reason the link doesn't seem to work
Typing is faster than longhand writing, and much faster than writing in print. However, voice recognition could be faster than either typing or writing.
Although voice recognition is still weak (I've used IBM's ViaVoice to write letters), it's getting closer to general usability, for much text-writing.
It will never be popular with programmers, since we need two-dimensional control of our text. But for the average Joe, a way to point where to add text, and voice recognition software, would be an excellent input combination.
Never play leapfrog with a unicorn. Or a juggernaut.
hey man, i don't know... i've been growing up behind the keyz since i was 12... don't think my messed up brain can cope with anything else... oh yeah and also: i can type faster then i can speak... let alone write... so for me personally those two things are out of the questions! (yes, i do type with two fingers!)
One, you don't know that a computer couldn't recognize your handwriting than a person could. Unlikely, of course, but possible.
Two, I grant that you prefer to type on a keyboard. If you can't use the writing pad type controller, then don't. Same for everyone else that needs a keyboard.
But don't read more than is available; they are working on writing recognition to supplement and enhance the current interface, and perhaps change it, but not to replace it. They will add it to Wacom tablets, which at best replace mice; then you don't have the problem of context switching between mice and keyboards. This doesn't replace the keyboard unless you choose to replace the keyboard yourself!
As for the GUI for DOS... yes. For people who can't use keyboards, but need mice, joysticks, voice, and eye tracking. They need something to point to. They can't type! As for high speed Internet Access? No, of course we don't need it-we want it!
Apple has no need to keep the needs of all computer users in mind; only those who use them, buy them, or have them. They don't have to cater to the blind, the deaf, or the stupid, but they do, and good for them.
I hope I haven't just responded to a troll, but you get the benefit of the doubt cuz you have a user name and handle!
Bye!
GPL Deconstructed
It's funny, but I recently became obsessed with fountain pens, and writing with them has really improved my handwriting. It's actually pleasant to compose a paragraph, laying down the ink in swooping lines, feeling the nib glide across the paper like the feeling of the road through the steering wheel of a fine sports car...
No way in hell I'd do that for code-writing though. Electronic signatures, sure -- writing a Perl script, no way!
Just junk food for thought...
>>I'm just sad that it took so long to get to this point. I wonder if they'll bring back the Newton in another 5 years...
It'll be called the Palm XVI (to coincide with Superbowl MXVLIVI)
just my blog and pix
The "System Preferences..." looks an aweful lot like the old Control Panel from the pre System 7 days.
Though this was derived from the OpenStep Preferences.app panel, I haven't looked at the API enough to know if it is extensible. If it is, it may be just as well called control panels.
The whole reason I use my computer is to avoid my awful [left handed] writing... I NEED MY KEYBOARD.
A handwriting recognition tablet is a good idea for an add on, but as the primary input device it wont fly for most of us. Sure it's slick, but I think keys are still the quickest way to get data from my brain into the computer.
One future, two choices. Oppose them or let them destroy us.
My handwriting is terrible, and no recognition program around now, no matter how good it is, could decode it because it sort of has a randomization algorithm to it so usually i end up doing something noticably different when writing the same thing twice.
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. --Sun-Tzu
What about pure speed of data entry?? There is no way that pen based entry will come anywhere near the 70 or so words/min that a decent typist can attain. A pen/speech recognition solution, maybe. But writing is just too slow. That's one of the reasons the keyboard was invented in the first place.
There comes a time in every man's life when he must say, "No mother! I do not want any more Jell-O!"
But if you do that, you lose the advantages of a keyboard:
you can enter data faster
easier to enter data if you don't have a stable surface - ie. you only have to concentrate pressing a key as opposed to forming a stroke
you can look at the screen while you type on a keyboard as opposed to looking at a small section on your screen where you are scribbing a letter, then checking the main screen to make sure that it correctly identified what you typed.
you can't lose your keyboard like you can lose your pen :)
Removing keyboards
I cannot believe Steve Jobs
How will I play Quake?
This seems like the right course of action for apple to take. Thier whole business is based on simplicity. Doing away with the keyboard just gives them point and click and print/handwrite (most likely graphity though).
Thier Notebooks are becoming more and more like palm pilots. And consequently Palm Pilots are becoming more and more like notebooks.
"Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality." -Jules de Gautier
I don't know about anyone else, but if my keyboard was replaced by something I had to write on, my productivity would go straight down the tube. I can type between 65 and 90 wpm, depending on subject matter, whether I'm transcribing (some people still communicate TO me on paper but I email back), and a host of other criteria. But regardless of criteria, I don't think I can write / print in excess of 30 wpm. That said, I'll keep my keyboard, please. Proud father, Jason
...I don't have enough faith to believe in the "big bang"...
For those legal pad notes, which I do as well look at the Crosspad. It's pretty hefty in cost (not sure of the exact price, more than $400USD)
Definitely useful for those meetings and what ever when you don't have a computer handy.
nerdfarm.org
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
ouch.
anyway, my prediction is that as tablet devices and handwriting recognition become more suitable in some areas (esp. with devices too small to have a Proper Keyboard), regular usage will lead to better performance. that's the human adapting to the computer. this may be ethically challenging - after all, it's still the computers that should adapt to human needs - but much easier to achieve than vice versa :o)
We all know the keyboard isn't going anywhere for a very very long time. It's silly to think that we're even close to losing it entirely. But it's also silly to think that Apple is dumb enough to think that they can throw out everyone's keyboards and actually sell their products. Come on, people, let's not be ridiculous. You can't play hardly any games without them, can't type worth squat, can't do much on the web, can't write emails well... Do you all *really* think Apple is so dumb as to basically put everyone back in kindergarten of data entry? Of course they're not. Maybe this is real. But it won't *replace* the keyboard on a laptop. Maybe it'll replace the keyboard on a web-pad or something. Maybe it'll just be an additional feature for their future laptops. But you can rest assured that Apple is not planning on taking away your precious keyboards.
The streets shall flow with the blood of the Guberminky.
Weren't keyboards and typewriters orginally invented so people didn't have to hand-write all the time?
----------
"Rock over London... Rock on Chicago..." -Wesley Willis
This is a perfect troll. maks a valid point, but does it in such away as to provoke response.
Call me crazy and all but isn't that taking the troll thing too far.. I don't think I really understand about trolls but IMHO a perfect post is a post that makes a valid point and a provokes a response.. I thought trolls made no point at all and provoked a response.. it seems that slashdot would be worthless if every time a poster invoked thought they were ridiculed.. I thought we were nerds because we liked to think.. maybe I'm wrong.. maybe someone should define troll to me in a better way.. but IMHO your post was more of a troll than the original (MUCH more)..
I thought someone said there was going to be free beer!
It would be nice to only have one input device. It's a pain in the ass to move my hand from my keyboard to my mouse all day. It would be really cool to replace both and be able to do all sorts of 2-d input and text input at the same time.
Additionally, the notion of a frontmost window would go away. You could just define the destination of text entry as the area of the screen that the mouse/pen was in when the text entry began. So I could switch between xterms just by writing on different parts of the wacom.
This rumor is mostly based on the one that they will be replacing their trackpads (in their powerbooks) with handwriting regonition able pads. People will be able to use the track pad for more than just a mouse pointer, and this could also show signs for their sixth slot. Any sort of portable 'pad' device would be able to use this technology.
It seems idiotic to replace the keyboard.
...and I'm not sure we should trust this Kyle Sagan either.
Well, I have had a messagepad 2100 (the very last newton) since spring of 1998, and I must say it's very good. I actually had to chase around town, and when I picked it up I was told that I got the last one in the lower mainland, and if I hadn't shown up that day someone else would have gotten it.
And they're surprisingly fast. I actually take all of my class notes on it. Once I taught it a chemical engineering vocabulary, which took less than two weeks, it kept up just fine. I'd estimate a very low error rate, definitely less than 10% and possibly less than 5%, and nearly all errors could be fixed by a quick tap, tap 'try letter-by-letter recognition' that didn't slow me down much at all. And in many ways it was faster than taking the notes on a keyboard would have been: the profs draw a lot of diagrams, and quite frankly, 'tap, tap I'm in drawing mode, draw the picture, tap, tap I'm back in writing mode, keep making notes' is a heck of a lot faster than trying to make those diagrams with a keyboard and mouse. Selecting and moving items around - text or drawings - was so easy. I used that feature a *lot* for annotating the drawings and diagrams.
The two weeks I spent teaching it a chem.eng vocabulary didn't slow me down in class, either, because I told it not to convert the text, just to save the images of my handwriting for later conversion. After class I would go through and convert it to text, fixing all the errors. Once it learned the words, though (the newton works on a wordlist then a letter-by-letter scheme) I didn't have to do that anymore.
And it reads *my* handwriting, not the handwriting that the makers programmed into it. It's bigger than a palm, but it has a bigger screen, which I think is worth it. It may not fit into my pocket, but that's why I have a 'shoulder holster' for it (g)
I love my newton. In case you haven't guessed already.
"When correctly viewed, everything is lewd
I could tell you things about Peter Pan
"When correctly viewed, everything is lewd
I could tell you things about Peter Pan
Or the Wizard of Oz...
I spend most of my time with one hand on my mouse and the other with my chin on it. Sure, when I'm typing this response I'm using the keyboard, but the periods where I'm typing stuff are getting smaller and further apart
I'm not anti-keyboard. I bought the wonderful folding keyboard for the Palms. In fact, that's where I decided that a pen-based system with a removable keyboard is particularly convenient...
Well, I'm sure all those high school english professors who insist that you write someone out instead of typing it will be thrilled. Judging from some of the posts I'm no the only one that thinks handwritting is slow in comparisson to typing. But something else bothers me.
I remember reading some time ago (cannot remember where, sorry) and article about how people who have grown used to writing on their PDAs started developing problems writing on paper. Seems like a stupid way to go about making a paper-less society.
Do we really need another input gizmo? How long until someone comes out with an ergonomically-correct stylus?
-- get on Freenet!
...box(?) out like this. Check it out: QBENET
No one is saying the keyboard will disappear; that's stupid. What is being pioneered is an alternative input device. Nothing less, nothing more. The disabled and disorderly will still be able to use a computer. Calm down...
And I, for one, need high-speed Internet access. So nyah!
--
Fingers grip the pen.
Carpal Tunnel agony.
Bring back the keyboard.
--Threed-Looking out for Numero Uno since 1976!
Sure there are some people, and the opportunity for input systems catering for people who have difficulties with keyboards are enormous, but those numbers hardly make a viable product.
The keyboard MUST be at least optional, something like a removable DVD drive in a Thinkpad - carry it for more functionality, or leave it behind for less weight.
I'm sick of people using the name of "progress" to try to justify dictating what you can and can't do. Did we really need a GUI for DOS? Did we really need high-speed Internet access? No, and we don't need handwriting recognition either.
:P)? No, but they are pretty nice if you ask me. While I agree with your assessment of replacing the keyboard with a writing pad (bad idea), and that MS should have left DOS at least as an option in WinME, I think your main argument is _very_ over-generalized.
Did we really need automobiles? Did we really need the telephone (cell phones not included
If there's any truth to this story, then you can rest assured that Apple won't replace all keyboards in their powerbook lines. Far more likely is that this is just the product that'll fill the 6th slot in apple's hardware plan, separate from powerbooks. For years, there've been rumors about apple producing a tablet device, and the technology and the prices are finally getting to the point where they just might do it.
"If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance" -- John Andrew Holmes
R U Saying that a writing pad will create fewer speelink errors? :-)
is here. A set of screen captures is also included, which although easily fakeable, argue against this being a "mole hunt" as others have suggested.
Do we really need a GUI for DOS? For some folks, emphatically yes! Otherwise, the computer would overwhelm them and they would never benefit from the many things it can do. For those who don't need the GUI and had all their needs met with command line DOS, they certainly have the option to continue to use just DOS.
Progress is great! If it is truly progress, it makes human lives better.
Just to pick nits, this is an Apple Laptop we're talking about. Anyone using it as a development machine would be downright silly. Of course on a computer there would still be a keyboard. This is some sort of webpadish thing.
There comes a time in every man's life when he must say, "No mother! I do not want any more Jell-O!"
The quote that "the idea is to get rid of the keyboard" did _not_ come from Apple. It came from a source "familar with Apple's plans" which could mean just about nothing.
I doubt that apple would scrap keyboards on all of their powerbooks, at most they may offer one or two models without and add handwriting recognition to the rest.
Who am I? Subscribe and find out
This is kind of relevant. Does anyone else have a problem writing, with something like graffiti, being a left hander
I've never had a problem using Graffiti on my Palm V or my Palm Pilot 5000 that I used before it. Since I'm only writing in one place I don't have the normal problems that come from going left to right. And you can write some really nasty looking letters and they will still get recognized. Really the only letter I have much dificulty doing is 'e' for some strange reason
That said, when it comes time do really enter some data, I'll head for the PC and the keyboard. I just don't understand those people who love to do all of their email on the pilot.
I remember playing with a "Duo 230" (Apple laptop) without keyboard, but with a large LCD screen glued to the top of it (Yeah, glued, it was an early prototype). You wrote on the thing. It was before newton existed, in fact, it was on that thing that newton people were testing the recognition. It was not really working anyway. It was called Rosetta, and was dumped more than 6 years ago. So, this thing existed. Now, I'm pretty sure the prototype would have been renamed if it has been revived. It's useless anyway, all I ever write is checks, and my writing is so untrained that I barely can read them afterward!
Then again, I for one don't type massive amounts of text on my laptop, thus to me the slowness of handwriting is not a problem (just as long as the recognition software can keep up with my writing). The thought of getting rid of the silly clamshell design on laptops is very appealing though.
Speech recognition laptops - now there's an idea I wouldn't want corporate people to know about. Imagine spending 6 hours on a plane where every suit is talking to his laptop - at once - thorugh out the flight?
.oO Kaa Oo.
The main customer base of Apple are graphic designers. Most of them have excellent handwriting and I personally know some that hate keyboards. Apple is just trying to serve their customers and get a better grip on their market share.
Uhh...no offense, but this seems muddled. First you say that they didn't have typing classes (of course, they really did; typewriters have been around for about a century), and then that the problem was that the classes only appeared in high school.
Actually I took my first typing class in 8th grade -- hardly high school -- and that was back in the 70s.
Nevertheless, you are probably right that this is aimed at people who have absolutely no clue about technology, because a keyboard is by far the fastest way to get text entered into a computer (short of OCR, anyway...). No dopey handwriting recognition software is going to be dominating the country's code factories, and that is a fact.
DFL
Never send a human to do a machine's job.
The strength of a keyboard is the fact that is has "finger friendly" size and tactile feedback. This point is that the hands can type without involving the top-level mental process. Really. The finger "knows" that a button has been pressed. When a person is typing at full speed and throws in an occational backspace and corrects errors, the conscious mental process is not involved. Typical "interrupt latency" for consciousness is perhaps in the order of .5 secs. That is e.g. why touch keyboards dont work. You have to watch the screen to be sure that the keyboard catched your strokes. Your highest-level mental processed is constantly disturbed. An input device that relies on higher level processes to do error detection/checking will never be fast and convenient enough. For such an activity to be handled at low-level, the feedback must be fast and direct.
Examples of working systems:
*Normal sized keyboards (tactile feedback)
*Pen and paper (ink directly on the substrate)
*Mouse (mouse pointer)
*Conversation (small hums, nods, face expressions)
A common mistake is to confuse down-sized keyboard with a keyboard. A down-sized keyboard is an input device, but not a keyboard. It doesnt allow for the fingers to "do their work".
For a desk, a keyboard is currently superior to any other text input device. But I would not want to lug around a full-sized keyboard, so for portable applications this is not so good.
The aim of a pen interface should be to be good at what pen-and-paper is good at: small, portable, facilitates overview/scribbling/the thought process as awhole. I personally _think_ better with a pen and paper in front of me. It is like a brain workspace expansion.
Also, I dont think that stylus-on-the screen is better than a mouse. The hand blocks the screen. The strength of the mouse concept is that the brain makes the connection between the mouse movements and the pointer on the screen after about 10 seconds of training.
"Working speech recognition is two years away" Thats what they have been saying since the 60's. But thas is a different discussion...
"10000 years in the making."
Is OS X going into a Palm/Newton near you? No obvious benefit there.
I, and many I know, can type faster than I can write. No obvious benefit there
A computer input "for the rest of us" ? I don't see much that handwriting can do that you can't do with a mouse and hunt-and-peck. ( I know of what I speak: I help a lot of 2-6 year olds use iMacs). No obvious benefit there
A writing tablet. Cross has sold one these for years. My office mate has one. Cool toy, not too useful for getting work done. No obvious benefit there.
....aaahhhhh, but maybe that is the point. If non-computer users think that they can avoid the keybaord, maybe they'll be more likely to buy a Mac.
Could somebody help me with the obvious: why, beyond the "kewl" factor, is handwriting technology useful for a masss market computer?
"one treats others with courtesy not because they are gentlemen or gentlewomen, but because you are" --G. Henrichs
The keybord saved my life
That right, you heard me I said "The keybord saved my life", and while I mean it in a "that night the DJ saved my life" kinda way rather than a "the doctor saved your life in there" kinda way, it is never the less the truth.
I'm mildly dyslexic, I have difficulty with spelling, and remembering lists, but as a youth my main problem was with handwritting. The teachers thought I was stupid. The kids picked on me, and I was heading directly to the dole queue (do not pass go do not collect £200).
Then my parents bought me my first computer, a ZX80. Hardly CPU power, hardly a keyboard worth using. But I did. Boy did I use it. I got tested, I got help, my teachers saw my potential. I passed English, thanks to the keybord.
I was just dyslexic. Many people have much worse problems that that with writing. Like no arms, for example.
Ironicly I now use a PalmV as an organiser, and can actually code using the graffiti, but thats a matter of practice and detemination. It was the leg up I neaded. The alternative. The choice. Different input devices for different people.
I think I've made my point. And a couple of extra ones as well. :)
Thad
Thad
His name was Lee Moon. He still has a page, but I can't find it right now. blakespot
-- Heisenberg may have slept here.
iPod Hacks.com
Many have said here that typing is faster than writing...but you do learn writing first (or are they teaching typing in grade schools along with handwriting these days? Probably should if they aren't). Guess it could be a boon for those who hunt and peck. For those of us who seek ways to not use the mouse and stay on the keyboard, no...not a big help.
How about this...a pen with a switch on it that allows you to use it as a mouse or for other input (alphanumberic) as you see fit? The major issue I still see present is the lack of Ctrl/Command keys. Copy, Paste, Select all, etc. Anyway...at least there's some apparent reason now that they didn't sell the Newton technology off.
Que Deus te de em dobro o que me desejas
[May God give you double that which you wish for me]
Actually, I have a single NiCad pack that I've never removed from my Newton in three years of constant use.
There's _plenty_ of everyday uses, in and out of academia, where this sort of large-format write-on graphics tablet beats a keyboard.
Here's a few:
1. Physics class.
Physics grad students do pretty well for themselves in owning cool toys, but not many take a laptop to class. Paper and pencil wins every time, after a few xi's, eta's, operators, subscripts, nested brackets, and all the rest, not to mention graphs, even latex-like approaches are left way behind.
Tablet advantages over paper: can sync students pen strokes to professor's voice audio track (built in mic). Can also have time-synced pen strokes to mark up pre-prepared pdf handouts or even to IR/RF broadasts from the classroom's digitally equipped whiteboard.
2. Art / architecture class.
Similar to above, but extra advantages come in marking up pictures (either pre-prepared pdf's from prof. or from the ol' built-in camera).
3. Document creation.
Main text input is voice. Pen chooses correct words in ambiguous cases, shoves around content.
4. Document revision / markup.
Same general idea as proofreader marks, with electronic advantages.
Just need one e-publicity-hungry university to make this sort of device mandatory for incoming students, and we're off...
Because all the 2000/2100's shipped with one. No HWR is as good as quick typing, but for on-the-fly use, which is what a PDA/Handheld is for, a keyboard is a pain. Remember, lots of people use the Newton where others might use a laptop.
This reminds me of a April Fools joke that went around many years ago (1993, 94?) that Apple was going to completely replace the keyboard with the mouse.
Instead of typing with the keyboard, you would have a graphical wheel on the screen that you would drag to rotate. Rotating the wheel would scroll through the characters. When you got to the one you wanted, you clicked.
I mean, seriously, where do they take an annoucement about handwriting recognition for the Mac becoming availible and suddenly translate that into "Apple is doing away with the keyboard"
That's silly.
Hey ice, next time i visit #mac, you gotta give me some of those URLs :-) -TheSkull
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
First it is a buttonless mouse then a keyboardless computer. What's next a G4 cube with no monitor, mouse, keyboard or screen........wait a minute they have smartjacks coming out dont they. That would be nice I would not mind jacking in only thing is most people will be jacking off.
Where am I going and why am I in this handbasket?
http://boole.stanford.edu/thumbcode Of course, if you say "@" in thumbcode to someone from the U.K., you're likely to get hit.
I find it very hard to write on any touchpad I have ever used. The tactile feedback is all wrong. Also, if it is a screen you are "writing" on, where what you write appears beneath the pen, the depth is confusing. If it is not a screen, and you can't see what you've written at all, it's even worse. I suppose I could get used to it, but I just really don't think it is the "natural" interface they try to promote it as. It always feels very awkward to me.
The best thing would be to make the keyboard seamless (no cracks between the keys) and hence WATERPROOF. They're already made to be drop-tolerant (4 feet - but if you do it the warrenty becomes invalid). I'd hate to own one and have to run with it through the rain.
As an aside, a waterproof cell phone would make a nice accessory.
Yup, the handwriting recognition on the last Newton model (MP 2100) worked *wonderfully* for me. It got better in part because the 2100 had a faster CPU than the previous Newtons. It's the main thing I miss on the Palm Pilot.
I'd bet the HR engine works even better on a G4 with lots of cycles to burn!
Unless, you're one of those people who doesn't actually make mistakes......
"Isn't that the sweetest little well-balanced undergraduate-level philosophy of life."
I have a Graphire, and while driver installation caused me to upgrade to Win2k in a moment (2h actually) of temporary insanity that I am still suffering for, the pen is great once you get it running. I don't even use my mouse anymore. And my hand no longer aches after long work sessions, to boot. I don't think they have a Linux driver...
Nonetheless, I can't imagine using it for data entry type purposes unless forced to. I don't want to get writer's cramp on my computer. The missplet-url people would love them though :)
For me, an input method is acceptable if I can use it to write code with about the same speed as the keyboard.
I don't think that pen input alone would quite do it, but pen coupled with voice input, and a syntax-directed editor could do just fine.
So, if I'm working away, and I decide I need a new instance variable in the class I'm writing, I'd like to be able to say "New ivar, pointer to character", and have the editor append it to the instance storage definition, wherever it may be.
For that matter, a good set of pen gestures for code editing would be nice. Drag this block here, drag that test there.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
It seems to me that there are a good deal of geeks on here who have terrible handwriting. Now think I'm jumping the gun if you like, but maybe their handwriting is so terrible *because they use a keyboard more*? If you don't excercise a skill then in my experience, you get less good at it.This is just as applicable to handwriting as to Quake (or your choice of game). As a smaller example, I find it difficult to type on standard keyboards after having got used to my ergonomic curved one.
Now, if computers take handwriting as input, then perhaps the next generation will have better handwriting. Quite likely, I think.
The input device of today isn't necessarily the choice of tomorrow.
--
Said it couldn't last, said it wouldn't last... This is the last stand against tomorrow's world.
So you can write as fast as you would write on paper. For many people, that's faster than they can type.
The Newton failed because the software was so advanced that the available technology to run it was slow, expensive, large, and heavy. The Palm was a serious step backwards but it ran acceptably in available, inexpensive, and small/lightweight hardware. Now that there has been a few iterations of Moores law, the Newton stuff is poised to come back.
Burris
please moderate this up. it is the best post i have seen all day. very nice balance of insight and information.
i may have to print this out and frame it.
vbmbvbvvbmn mbvvbm bvmbv vmbvbbv
yes, but you fail to mention the obvious relationship between the user and the application.
mbvnbvm bvbvbv bmvnvbvbnm
I suppose for most people, that might be valid, but they can't possibly be a high enough percentage of the user base to completely discount the rest.
mbvbv mbvbv mbvbv mvbbv mvbbv vmbvb bvmvb mvbvb bvmbv bvmbv mbnvb bvmnbv mbvbv mvbbvmbvbvbvmbmv bvmmbvmbv mvbvb bvmmbv bvmbv bvmbv mbvnvb bvbvnbv bnvbbv vmbvbvmb vmbvbvbn mbvmvbvb mvbvbvb vbmbvbv mbvmbvmbv vbmmbvmvb vmbbvmmbvn bvbvvbm bvmvb
well, here i think you're just being pedantic. that argument was settled long ago.
thanks for the information, however.
Back in November of '93 Apple actually had workingprototype units of 'tabletized' Powerbook Duos. They got to the hardware seed phase, but pulled back when the press was having a field day with Newton's handwriting recognition.
The recognition actually imporved a great deal with NewtonOS 2.0, not that the world cared or took the time to notice. Now that other PDAs have failed similarly in 'off the shelf' recognition, and rely on letter-by-letter (Graffiti) or keyboard entry, the average consumer accepts that handwriting recognition isn't effortless and is prepared to learn a little to make it work better.
I'm just sad that it took so long to get to this point. I wonder if they'll bring back the Newton in another 5 years...
Kevin Fox
Kevin Fox
A good point on the surface.
However there are serious interface issues around taking away the keyboard input entirely. If the eventual outcome is to take it away you will seriously hurt the usability of these programs. Expecially Photoshop and their ilk.
Consider the fact that people who use these programs for their career, it would be important to note that these users do not waste their time with palettes and menus unless there is no other option.
When I use photoshop, I use it in full screen mode with all of the palettes off. I can switch layers, apply effects, change brushes, sizes, pressure, everything with one hand on the keyboard and one hand on the mouse. It would take 10 times longer to do everything with a stylus because it would be completely dependent on a point-and-tap interface.
Such usage is fine for the intermediate to beginning users who don't NEED to spend all of their time in these applications. For those who rely on them to bring in their paychecks, speed is everything, and the keyboard mappings mean speed. I used Photoshop as an example, which is ironic because incidentally it is the worst 'commercial standard' when it comes to keyboard support. Other programs are much more reliant on keyboard input and commands. Some can be completely reconfigured to accomdate any users needs.
Another point is that this really isn't about graphics and design users either. The way I understand it, this will be applied to portable solutions. You'll be hard pressed to find a designer that uses a laptop instead of a desktop workstation with a 21" screen.
The fact of the matter is this will be going onto portables for casual to professional users of conventional software SUCH AS word processing SUCH AS email. I don't know about you, but I can type at around 100 WPM on a good keyboard. I can write about 1/3 of that on a sheet of paper.
Paper provides a tactile feel, and allows small strokes. Stylus typically has a smooth surface with no give, and requires large strokes to be recognized. This will slow that down to a crawl.
This idea has cropped up in the past, and it has never flown exactly because of the reasons I gave above. For the 'power users' they need their keyboard mappings. For the casual users, they can still type faster than they can write.
The one thing I do like about the stylus design is that you have an instant point-to-hit instead of a mouse or trackball where you must move-to-hit. That speeds up pointer-operations, but it tends to tire out your arm, expecially on a large enough stylus. What could be a 1 inch flick of the mouse, or a small twitch on a trackball means a huge 8-10" arm movement to reach the interface widget you are trying to hit.
I don't see it flying, ever.
V
you need to take notes in class. Here's an example...
A friend of mine, who was a senior applied physics major last year (he has since graduated) had one of those very, very small laptops. He took the laptop to all of his classes where he needed to take notes that didn't include formulas (psych, for example). I asked him why he didn't use the notebook for his other classes, and he said, basically, that the notebook was incredibly impractical for taking down equations. Honestly, when you go to lecture and it consists of 1-2 hours of taking down, analyzing, and deriving equations, a notebook computer is worthless. If they could manage to have their handwriting recognition software so that it would recognize equations and convert them into a usable file format (LaTeX maybe? or mathematica?) then it would be an incredible boon to engineering and science students everywhere.
Moller
You can't argue that a key "tap" is slower than the strokes of writting a letter. But, there is a generation between the 50's and the 90's that didn't really have the same "touch typing" classes in school.... And... in the 50's it was High School, in the 90's it was grade school.
Your never going to replace the keyboard... Your only going to be able to refine it (twidler?).
Not to get caught up in the holy war of "Geesh, I am so stupid I can't write...", and "Damn, is Apple lame..."...but here I go.
Couldn't you type on a tablet? Leave an outline of where the "keys" belong, and let the tablet sense where you have tapped. Seems like then you simplify the whole process of getting the best of both worlds. Sure you don't get the physical feed back that we are Pavlovianly trained to crave...but hey, it would work
Of all the idiocy ... whoever thought this one up has not thought it through. Tablets are as useful for main input as a mouse is for drawing. It works, but not well. On the other hand, tablets work very well for drawing! Maybe Apple is appealing to the artsy craftsy crowd again? Keyboard skills are not hard to develop. My daughter reached 30 WPM after 6 weeks, which is my WAG for the cross-over point where keyboard input becomes more convienient than writing. To test for yourself the practicality of writing recognition as your main computer input, try this: first, type a dense page of text and note the elapsed time. Next, write the same page of text and note the elapsed time. Use printing or cursive writing, your choice. Be mindful that writing on a tablet will be no faster. Notice how much slower and more frustrating writing is (if you have half-decent keboard skills)?
English -- gotta love it! / The engineers refuse to refuse the rocket until the refuse is removed from the launch pad.
Why would anyone want to buy a full-sized notebook with handwriting recognition? The only reason that I can see for PDAs like the Palm Pilot having handwriting recognition is that they are too small for a keyboard. I like keyboards, they are a LOT faster than handwriting recognition.
Friends don't let friends use multiple inheritance.
I'm sick of people using the name of "progress" to try to justify dictating what you can and can't do. Did we really need a GUI for DOS? Did we really need high-speed Internet access? No, and we don't need handwriting recognition either.
Apple, please keep the needs of all computer users in mind when designing your future notebooks. Some of us prefer to use a keyboard, or are physically / mentally unable to function without out.
Has anyone seriosuly compared the time it takes to write something via hand writing recognition (i.e. on a Palm) vs. the time it takes with a keyboard?
Is there anyone that actually writes faster without a keyboard? I don't see why this is a feature other than possibly the size and durability of the laptop. I'm also sure a regular keyboard can function with far more dirt and debris on it than a tablet can....
(And, of course, a new mouse. It'll be circular.)
Old, old news.. Look around on the web for 'Chord Pads', and the Twiddler, in particular. (I'm too lazy to dig up the sites. Let some Karma Whore do the work.)
/seems/ like a more natural action for the hands than typing.
The manufacturing runs are small, so the prices are usually quite steep and you'll find that it takes a while to learn the patterns, but the speed gain they advertise is quite real, and it certainly
The problem with chording, is that another, older technology is in its place, with a huge market share. It's hard to convince people to stop and learn something beyond their keyboard.
Hmmm.. Does that sound familiar?
Weapons of Mass Analysis
as an addon is neat - but to do away with the keyboard is not very practical - imho
"I'm sick of people using the name of "progress" to try to justify dictating what you can and can't do."
Huh?
"Did we really need a GUI for DOS?"
Can you still use DOS without a GUI? Sure... who is stopping you?
"Did we really need high-speed Internet access?"
Uhhh yeah, but if you don't want it, you're perfectly capable of surfing at 28.8. I wasn't aware that modems were being taken away from people.
"No, and we don't need handwriting recognition either. "
Just because they make it doesn't mean you have to use it. So your argument is, don't make technological advancements if 100% of the population can't or won't use them?
Yeehaw!!!
-thomas
"And like that
In the auditorium, Skinner speaks to the children.
Skinner: Children, the times they are a-becoming quite different. Test scores are at an all-time low, so I've come up with these academic alerts. [hold stack of cards] You will receive one as soon as your grades start to slip in any subject. This way your parents won't have to wait until report card time to punish you.
Martin: How innovative. I like it!
Kearney: Hey Dolph, take a memo on your Newton: beat up Martin.
[Dolph writes "Beat up Martin" which the Newton translates as "Eat up Martha"] Bah! [throws Newton]
Martin: [being bonked on the head] Ow!
-j
-sigs of the world unite
Not only is my handwriting nearly illegible but I can type much much faster than I can write...
Shine on, you crazy diamond.
"I spend most of my time with one hand on my mouse and the other with my chin on it. "
I don't understand. Are you saying you spend most of the time with your hand on the mouse, and the rest of the time with your chin on it?
Does that work better?
-thomas
"And like that
his point was that the original post is almost so absurd, and yet not TOO absurd. So most people won't think it's a troll, and would respond normally... there's a mix.
"And like that
I'd also have some concerns about the editing capabilities of the interface. I've used pen-based systems before (GEOS-based Tandy Zoomer) and generally going back and making changes is a real pain.
--
Don't think "wordprocessing" when you see this. Think Photoshop / Graphic design -- a portable tablet-sized device an artist can take on the road and draw on directly, instead of having to hook up a separate tablet. We already have tablets with a built in lcd screen that the artist draws on directly. Apple is just taking the logical step of wrapping a computer around it and updating the operating system not to require any additional input devices.
"If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance" -- John Andrew Holmes
And quit your bitching.
I'm sick of luddites bitching and moaning everytime somebody comes up with a new idea. If you don't like it, then don't use it. Nobody's going to put a gun to your head and make you practice your penmanship.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
To write in a manner that handwriting recognition can get (even the really, really good progs) 60-70 wpm is a vast overestimate. The numbers I've seen (and experienced on a Newton) never exceed 25 wpm.
There comes a time in every man's life when he must say, "No mother! I do not want any more Jell-O!"
With Apple's implementation of 802.11 technology (i.e. Airport) this could be a touchscreen, writeable device you could take anywhere in your house with high speed connectivity. Think of the uses:
1. Fabled kitchen recipe device - surf Epicurious for recipes and quicktime movie instructions while in your kitchen.
2. eBook - read your favorite eBook anywhere in the house, read any eBook you want, connect wirelessly in bed, on the toilet, whatever...
3. Casual, mobile Internet surfing. Hey - if it has a mike for voice commands, it could be a big mobile IP phone as well.
4. Use your own imagination...
I may be weird in this way, but I've wanted a mobile medium sized wireless device for around the house for some time. I think the technology is finally starting to catch up. Just my three cents...
Ignoring the pun, minaturization is a big issue(groans etc...).
Many of the above suggestions for an alternative input device rely on a touch-screen keyboard or something of that ilk. This is, IMHO, entirely the wrong way to go. Although these devices would be less deep than a keyboard, they would still take up the same area. This does not allow much scope for minaturization. It kind of defeats the object.
For various reasons, voice recognition will not be a practical solution for a long time. Nintendo are not releasing the Voice-controlled Pikachu game in the UK because they can't handle the accent range. One day, maybe voice control will be the norm. But not today.
What I propose is an entirely new manual input method. The Keyboard layout we know and love was desinged to SLOW typing, to stop typewriters getting jammed when the letters hit each other. Its time we rethought the keyboard from the ground up.
Phonetic keyboards (like they use in coartrooms) get by with very few keys, because they are designed to be used fast. They use simultaneous keypresses to allow fast, efficient typing.
Why do we not employ a varient for keypboards, especially for those of palmtops. Handholds, 2 buttons for each finger, tracking device for the thumbs? The system would not be entirely phonetic (we need to spell words sometimes), and it would enable massive minaturization of the palmtop.
Sure it would mean retraining everybody, but it would be worth it. It's a brave New World we have the chance to make, one without keyboards.
yours,
Arieh
These people look deep within my soul and assign me a number based on the order in which I joined. -- Homer Simpson
In addition, sources said Apple is considering adding pen-input support to the trackpad of Mercury, the company's next-generation PowerBook G4.
"The idea is to eliminate the need for a keyboard," said one source familiar with Apple's plans.
So the Powerbook will have a keyboard, it will have a trackpad. You can write on the trackpad with a stylus if you choose, but it does not replace the keyboard on the new powebooks.
"will ship alongside Mac OS X"
"InkWell is a compact software package that comprises a control panel, some help files and a shared library, sources said. Users will write on the tablet as if it were a sheet of paper; the software also supports the "eraser" capability built into Wacom's current line."
There are NO control panels in Mac OS X. Control panels are DEAD. Good riddance, I say.
So, if this is indeed a control panel, why is is coming out for OS X for sure and OS 9, but only maybe?
I'd expect the opposite to be true from that second quote.
This doesn't exactly make me trust the rest of the "article."
Sauth
As I read through most of these comments it seems to me that most of them are things like 'who can't type faster on a keyboard then HWR?' and 'the keyboard will never die!!'
I think you are all missing the point here. Apple isn't going to stop including keyboards with all of their products, they just might come out with something that doesn't have a keyboard (like the newton, or the palm, but bigger) is it possible that there are people out there that might want to buy somehting like that? yes there is. maybe you don't but, who cares?
I think the ibook screen is too small and it is not expandable enough, so you know what I did? I bought the computer that was right for me, a powerbook. I didn't write Apple (or slashdot) and bitch about the ibook not being right for me, cuz they have products that do cater to my needs. I know people who love their ibooks, and they dont want anything more. I guarantee there are people out there who do not like the keyboard, who don't need that extra functionality for whatever they are using their machine for, and would get along just fine with a tablet-based system.
perhaps whenever apple leaks (or announces) something that sounds like change (oh my gosh!) you can all sit back and think; 'well, i dont htink I would like that, but someone might' instead of assuming that everyone on the planet is like you and would rather drive a six-inch spike through their foreheads then give up their keyboards...
sheesh..
(BTW I used to have a newton2000 and the HWR rocked)
Another variant of this is from Wacom. They have a line of their graphics tablets that have a LCD screens behind them so an artist can draw right on the display. I don't think they do handwriting recognition, though.
Burris
i type faster than i can write. why would a person want to purposely lower their efficency?
another thing is, i dont' see people wanting to write that badly. you don't see WACOM tablets flying off shelves.
the perfect thing this might be for is a niche market. walking through your house with an inputable flatpanel is better than lugging a laptop, so maybe a flatpanel in that application would be better. but definately, i think we need keyboards!
Handwriting recognition is impressive and all that, but I can't imagine wanting to give up my 90 wpm entry rate with ten fingers and 101 inputs to use a 20 wpm entry rate with a single point of input...
This is kind of relevant. Does anyone else have a problem writing, with something like graffiti, being a left hander?
A device with a keyboard and pen/tablet would be almost like a handheld on steroids. Something like a PDA for business people but also something appealing to the consumer set. Throw in writing directly to the screen and Apple would have a real winnner.
(Hell, throw in cellular modem capabilities built-in and they'd have a real winner).
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Moderate that one up, that was funny!
Too bad I used all my points up earlier today.
LongTail SSH Brute Force analysis tool is here!
Possibly they meant do away with the necessity of the keyboard... I doubt they're going to be totally getting rid of it soon... possibly in the ibook, but not in the powerbook. You can still put a disk drive in the powerbook.
Looking for freelance Actionscript (Flash/Flex) or ColdFusion work and/or freelance developers. Email me, put Slashdot
If you've used one of the Palm folding keyboards and experienced a satori, you should be able to see that something like the Palm could provide the core processing and storage and a palmtop display. Take it with you everywhere, know no limits. Plug in a keyboard if you need to type. Plug in a flat-panel display if you need more screen. The whole package of modules would be no larger or cumbersome than a Sony Vaio. That's my ideal.
--
Oh, yeah, it's not easy to pad these out to 120 characters.
60 words a minute to what, 10? Just what I need.
--
I can type 140wpm.
How fast can you write??
This doesn't seem like a good move. I seem to recall from somewhere (don't quote me) that the average person writes between 60-70 words per minute. That is also the average typing speed of most computer users (not windows/mac users, real computer users)
my hand hurts after a few minutes writing with a pen, while I get a few hours without pain typing.
this seems rather reverse-innovative in my own opinion, humble as it be.
nerdfarm.org
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
I can type much faster than I can handwrite. Not to mention that I don't get cramps in my hand after typing a few paragraphs quickly.
I like the concept of having alternatives to keyboards available, but not wholesale replacement of the keyboard, until we find a better way than just writing.
I can see this being a good first step towards good portable computing. However, just something you can write on isn't enough. I would suggest a pad-sized tablet where you draw/write directly on the screen. Instead of running the MacOS, Apple should go all out and write an OS custom-designed for palmtop computing. This should be separate from the Macintosh, but still keep the "Apple" feel - I would suggest calling it "Issac". Maybe there could also be an optional, detachable keyboard that would come in a canvas case. They'd also have to use a badass, low-power processor for this. I'd suggest the StrongARM. Can you imagine if they actually went ahead and made a system like this? I bet it would be a hit, and get great support from the company!
Please - there are lots of interesting things going on with Apple these days, many of interest to Slashdots readership - why bother with the 2nd-rate rumors?
I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
At the gym I go to, there are computers with touchscreens over some of the exercise bikes, and you can 1-finger type on them. It's a dog-slow way to enter anything, but fine for web browsing once you're past the first real URL, at least given the speed you read the web while biking.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
OK. This isn't gonna be something for the usual computer user - PC or Mac, but how about the occasional user? Sure, I wouldn't want to use it as a wordprocesser, but have you ever seen someone who has never used a QWERTY keyboard in their life try to type a letter? About one key a minute - I'm serious. And handwriting recognition has improved a lot - my handwriting is bearly readable, but software can read it. The software that comes with a projector/touch sensitive whiteboard at school (called a SmartBoard - no link, sorry) can read my handwriting fine - OK speed isn't good compared to a touch-typist, but what about someone who wants to use it to scrawl shopping lists down, it'd be fine.
Only problem is, who would pay the price of a laptop for a glorified paper notepad?
I think this is an important idea, if not a good one, and here's why (this is also in response to comment #31, "Handwriting Recognition"): having handwriting recognition assumes one has a penlike thing to write with, right? Of course; it's usually called a stylus. The important thing about this is that not only does the stylus allow one to write "naturally", but it also allows one to do away with a mouse or trackball.
:) However, I could use a stylus to change focus, click buttons, and "type" into text fields or windows or whatever. And if this particular computer does come with a keyboard, I could use the keyboard when I want to type quickly. It's the best of both worlds: fast typing when necessary, convienience and "wrist health" when not.
One of the cumbersome things about GUIs, for me personally, is the fact that I often have to switch from the keyboard to the mouse to change focus or click a button or whatnot. This may be a bigger issue for some than others, but I'm sure it's not good on the wrists
Of course there's the issue of mouse buttons; since the MacOS was designed for one-button mice anyway, it's not really an issue, but for multiple-button mice, perhaps they could put tiny buttons on the stylus that send different signals or change the magnetic field or somethin'... eh?
---
Q. How many Newtons does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Foux! There to eat lemons, axe gravy soup.
Hope this turns out better.
"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
In my industry I usually need to stand and enter data at the same time. "Lap" tops force me to sit before I type. I assume all of you that can't imagine how one might be more productive through handwriting over typing don't actually stand up much. Many in my industry (film production) would kill for touch screen handwriting recognition for data entry and retrival.
I can talk faster than I can type.
I can think faster than I can talk.
So it would seem to me, as if they are looking in the wrong direction. Given that I can already type, and reading one's thoughts it still a sci-fi fantasy (and may possibly/probably always be), what about voice recognition. That seems to be getting better and better...
I think Apple's long-term success will depend on its ability to sell niche-market computers... as if they don't that already!
Seriously, if they intro this handwriting laptop, do they have the manufacturing savvy to make a profit on a less-than-large amount of sales?
blessings,
"Only in their dreams can men truly be free 'twas always thus, and always thus will be."
--Tom Schulman
Now that I can type faster than I write, they want to do away with keyboards. =)
Seriously, as things evolve, laptops and PDA's will probably merge a bit, and this is a logical extention. Great if you want a word processor, email client, etc that's handheld. I use my laptop, however, to continue writing code on long plane trips, etc. This seems much more suited to keyboarded computers. So in the end, you will probably have PDA/Laptop derivatives which can do 4 bazillion calculations / sec, 3.999 bazillion of which will never be used. I can't wait =-)
There's no way I could ever put up with handwriting recognition as my sole source of input.
I can type about 5-10 times faster than I can write normally, and that's without caring if anybody besides myself can read it. If I'm writing on my Palm, and care to have a certain level of accuracy, I'm reduced to less than 10 words per minute.
That's just not acceptable for a laptop computer. Palm tops, where the most you should have to type in is a person's name and address, are ok for handwriting recognition, but even there I find myself typing notes on my PC and uploading them to the palm.
In short, bad idea Apple...
Doug
Venn ist das nurnstuck git und Slotermeyer? Ya! Beigerhund das oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
When I was 10-or-so years old, my parents bought me a typewriter. I haven't used a pen or pencil since then except under extreme duress. (My good grades in school may be attributable to the mere fact that my homework was legible.) I've always been something of a luddite, but a writing pad instead of a keyboard is too retro for even me. (Got to give Apple credit, though, for thinking out of the box--or should I say "out of the cube"?)
Just like mine, then:-)
Seriously, how many paople can read their own writing?
Handwriting is really not so bad for normalish letter writing and such.. but what happens if you intend to use the machine as more of a portable development platform? Trying to write out all of the {'s and such would drive me insane. It is difficult to imagine anything replacing the keyboard for that sort of thing. Of course I am sure I am just not being imaginative enough.
-prak
While I tend to disbelieve all Apple rumors, I find this one particularly tempting.
/.ers, it may be quite common among the unwashed masses.
By far the largest segment of the potential computer market is that portion which consists of people who are not already computer users. It would be fruitless (no pun intended) for Apple to concentrate their marketing and new products on an attempt to convert those who already have an investment in Windows software. Instead, there is a much larger segment available and Apple is going after it. So far they have done so by making there products have visual appeal.
Handwriting recognition that works (assuming that it does) could also be a boon. Many folks are overwhelmed by or even afraid of computers. Providing those folks with a familiar and immediately usable input method could entice them into the computer using population. If their first investment is with Apple, there is a good chance they'll remain Apple customers for years.
Many creative writers find creating with a keyboard difficult. This provides them with familiar input and digital output -- the best of the paper and computer worlds. And some of us just don't touch type. I can hunt and peck at about 15 wpm, but I can print quite legibly at about 30 wpm. Switching to real handwriting recognition would double my speed instantly. While this is not common among
Mostly, I'd like to see the same input methods available for my Mac and my Palm. Steve Jobs has said that Apple is "working closely" with Palm, and there are rumors that the next generation of Palms will have a new handwriting recognition engine. It's not too much of a leap to think that Apple might license this engine to Palm creating an even tighter link between Palm and Apple. (Palm Desktop is already included on the CD with the Mac OS and on new Macs.)
This could be a win for Apple because new users might be much more likely to buy a PDA than a full-blown computer. When they are ready to move up to a laptop, the handwriting recognition they are used to is available on a Mac, and only on a Mac. Further, synching it with their existing PDA is easy. This way Apple can use Palm as a new entry point for acquiring Mac users.
Of course, in the meantime Apple must keep its existing customer base. The best way to phase this in is to offer it as a standard option for data entry on an existing popular line such as the Powerbook. The idea may be to eliminate the keyboard on some Mac, but I don't think Apple is about to eliminate the keyboard across their entire product line. Their recent release of a new keyboard product supports this theory.
We all know the Newton was dropped, but we don't know that this was because of handwriting recognition. Steve Jobs has said that Apple will sell only one OS rather than having several lines "like some others." This leads one NOT to conclude that the sixth slot in the product matrix will be filled with an Apple branded PDA running Palm OS -- a move that would be particularly counterproductive if Apple is licensing Inkwell to Palm. Instead, it is more likely to be some variant on the "book" theme using the Mac OS and serving as an entry level computer for a new market segment.
spinochet