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Amazon's Privacy Policy Now Allows Sale of User Info
StoryMan writes: "Amazon.com decides to revise its privacy policy and states that it considers consumer data a saleable asset. Story here at CNN." Michael notes that this only happens if Amazon.com is sold: essentially covering their butts in case they go bankrupt. Of course considering their burn rate, this doesn't make me feel better. I haven't shopped at Amazon since their one-click-shopping patent, but I'm sure they have plenty of stuff listed about me from an era when I happily shopped with them (mind you this is before Amazon diluted itself by selling so much crap, that buying books became a pain).
Jamie adds:
Note the language of the new privacy policy: "of course" your private information will be "one of the transferred assets."
Did you think your information would still be private five years from now, when the dozens of companies you've shopped at have all gone bankrupt one by one? Ha ha! Foolish consumer!
The first test case in bankrupt-privacy seems to be Toysmart, and the latest word on that is that a judge refuses to forbid such "asset transfers." We'll keep you posted on the Toysmart case, but for now, it doesn't look good.
This may have been covered before, but what about those of us who agreed to the original privacy policy? Shouldn't Amazon provide a way for us to completely remove our details from its system if we don't agree to it's new policy?
I was against them before... now I'm going to go change my info to something totally useless and never visit again... You'd think that as privacy issues gain more and more of the limelight that these companies would start behaving themselves in a better way. Bah!
Jon Katz - the worlds biggest waste of time and bandwith.
Companies sell your data all the time. They do not need the internet for that. Credit card companies, mail order companies, magazines ... ect. They were doing this before the internet exploded. I received a mailing for thinkgeek (which I think is cool) where do you think they got my address from them I never purchased anything from them. They bought my name from somewhere because I was labeled as a linux geek. On the internet there is less information being given out then your Credit Card company. People are complaining about privacy when privacy died years ago.
Couldnt users who agreed with the original policy sue them for breach of contract? How about the government go after them for fraud?
Power corrupts... absolute power is kinda neat!
But right now I don't buy stuff from them anyway.
Anyway, I might have missed something, but as far as I can tell, there's no way to remove oneself from the database.
________________
They're - They are
Their - Belonging to them
I don't want free as in beer. I just want free beer.
I have been watching this trend that companies seem to be following; Having the user sign up for , and promising that the data you submit to them will not be used for anything other that their own records. Now it seems companies are changing policies left and right. So where does that leave us? Personally I get enough unwanted e-mail from . This is absolutely ridiculous. For a while it seemed we were heading in the right direction, people almost regarding internet forms where one agrees to a policy as a sort of signature. What is the legality of this? As far as I know when I signed up with Amazon.com they agreed not to sell or give out my user info to anyone. Now because they feel they may need to they change their policy.
It must be incredibly frustrating for those individuals who founded or co-founded amazon to see it heading this way.
Maybe the marketing / legal department at amazon has already figured out how to splice crack into their genes. Sure seems like it.
S.t.e.v.e.
since they can't export personal data to countries with insufficient privacy law. The US does not have satisfactory privacy-protection, but if a company has a good enough privacy-statement, you CAN export personal data to that company. But this may be a big mistake by amazon.. not that they'll loose me as a customer.. I prefer my local bookstore.
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
About time Amazon found a way to make money instead of bleeding it all over the place!
Since I no longer will shop at Amazon thanks to their patents, and now this, do you think they will provide a way for our information to be removed? After all, I submitted my information long before they decided to change their privacy policy.
Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
Following on from previous situations, where companies have gone bankrupt, and sold customer data [0], this is hardly a surprise. Has Amazon turned a profit yet?
However, this is an interesting case. In the UK (and Eurpoe generally) there is greater protection on what companies can, and can't, do with your personal data.
This means that the privacy policy for amazon.co.uk is different from amazon.com.
Arn't they the same company? Isn't this a little schitzophrenic?
This sets a bad precedent as companies will have a tight privacy policy to lure people in, then they will turn around and change it so they can sell the information. Privacy policies are quickly becoming useless, me thinks.
Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
I believe they can do this with out breaching the privacy policy. For instance if company X wants to seel to Amazons' computers books buyers then amazon will contact those buyers with the offer and no data is transfered to outside parties so they did not sell your information to this company they sold the right to contact amamzon's user. I heard of this being done so privacy contracts are not breached.
The one-click patent hurts. I avoid amazon.com when possible because of it.
I have a feeling that this article is just sensationalism, though. With the recent Toysmart case, this really seems like the sensible move on their part. I'm not too worried about amazon going out of business, anyway. Anybody care to explain why this is bad, except that it involves the words "private information"?
Some alternatives I use in avoiding amazon:
buy.com is almost always cheaper. Less in stock, worse web site, worse service, but cheaper.
fatbrain.com has excellent service and selection for technical books.
express.com has excellent service and selection for movies and games.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
Alex Bischoff
Interested in building a roof over your cubicle?
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Alex Bischoff
HTML/CSS coder for hire
This is absolutely ridiculous! There has to be some law that protects a user from this. Or atleast they should not be able to sell the information they gathered about me, BEFORE The change. Because I had agreed to their previous privacy policy. Wouldn't this be breach of contract. I can see it now. Medical instituions and porn sites. GARAUNTEing your privacy, hell they can make absolutely ANY claim they want. Then after a couple of years, when they have gathered lots of information and are gonna get good chunks of money, they simply change their privacy policy and can do whatever they want??? .. This is called conning the customer.
Does this mean that I can put up a deal on my commercial website that says .. Join now and fill this survey out.. and we promise never to disclose this information to anyone, and we'll never use any information either to spam you, and on top of that we'll mail them a check worth $10 in three months time to the address and name filled out in the survey. Now you'd have to fill in the right information to get the check and be able to cash it. So now I have a whole ton of your information. Then 2 months later, I change my policy and some $hit like that and spam anyway because we no longer give an option to registered users to opt-out of our "news" mail.
Sorry, No sig!
I've never used Amazon. And I couldn't be happier with that fact until now.
These were not the terms I agreed to. These are very different terms. It seems like the tactic of updating with bogus info is probably the only viable thing most of us can do but this type of bait and switch on the part of dot-coms could put a big chill on e-business.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
What they say: "In the unlikely event that Amazon.com Inc., or substantially all of its assets are acquired, customer information will of course be one of the transferred assets."
What they mean: "In the event that we get bought out, you and all information about you will be sold like cattle, whether you like it or not. So there."
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"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad." - Salvador Dali (1904-1989)
How can we totally -remove- our account info? Changing it is NOT good enough. We need to make a show of it and when they see a bunch of accounts being removed, realize something is up.
Wonder how Wall Street will react to this. It's up half a point so far.
BilldaCat
Check out www.noamazon.com for information about stopping Amazon, and links to other online bookstores which have better privacy policies.
- A.P.
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Amazon is learning a lesson, and has now made their sale of user data legit by their policy. If Amazon went under tomorrow, it would be hard for a judge to stop such a sale.
The biggest problem here is that the US has no regulation on privacy data, and there are very few mouths that are catching the ears of ppl in Congress to get stronger privacy info set up - possibly because the US Gov't has a rather juicy database as well that probably goes above and beyond the needs for maintaining taxes. The CNN article mentions an industry group that is formed to consider privacy issues, including Amazon and DoubleClick. I'm surprise they didn't invite Spamford to their party as well.
The only true way to go with privacy is the opt-in model, and making sure that your records with any company can be accessed by you and can be deleted at your request (Of course, in some cases, there might not be even information to be able to do part securely).
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
This is an email i sent to Amazon's cust srv. dept. at terms@amazon.com. It speaks softly but i have found that being 'nice' tends to get a better response. Dear Amazon, I noticed the change in your privacy policy specificly allowing that you will sell customer information as a part of a sale of a buisness unit. While i respect you for at least posting this information I would like to ask that you make some accomodations for those who have used your service prior to this change. Ideally it would be good if you purged the info ans started collecting fresh. At very least offer people a oppertunity to opt-out now that what we can expect from your company has changed. ============
Amazon's finally going to make money. Buy your stock NOW!!!
(btw, I'm cancelling my account with them)
If you can read this, then I forgot to check "Post Anonymously".
I think integrity has gone the way of the dinosaur in general (although there are a few companies who still believe in this). I, myself am opposed to selling of data, and my company will only share personal data if the person agrees to let me do so. I feel that .coms will need to adopt a new business strategy and revise their privacy policies if they expect to finish the 2000-01 fiscal year in the black.
Slashdot sells my user info? Then they'd get the e-mail address of my spam collection account, my Karma score (-1 at the moment), and a whole lot of blank fields... hmmm, they'd also get my .sig ;-)
Jon Katz - the worlds biggest waste of time and bandwith.
It would seem that Amazons records of what you do extend way beyond what information you actually type in. Amazon is one of the few companies that *really* take advantage of tracking buyers habits.
This personal information is how Amazon is aboe to pop up that message saying stuff like "People who bought this book also liked X" and "This book is popular at X Corp, and in Iowa"
Amazon has put all you clicks and such to good use which is really just good business. However this also makes the information much more valuable.
Let's face it... Data is a commodity, and it makes business sense to treat it as such.
On the other hand, sense Amazon seems to attempt to compete with everybody else in the world, why would they want to sell off there competitive advantage.
It does anger me however if a company can just change such statement at will. That is what agrivates me the most!
--- Nothing To See Here ---
I don't know about the rest of you, but I've already removed my credit card number and asked Amazon to remove all personal information about me from their site. This irks me a lot. I realize that my personal information is already out there, but the idea of someone making money off of me like that really pisses me off.
I highly doubt they're going to remove my personal information simply because I asked. All I can do is screw it all up so whomever gets it next can't use it correctly. Amazon.com is no longer on my places to shop because of this.
-Frijoles-
Never shopped online.. apart from eBay? Hell.. I've never smoked.. Apart from cigarettes.
http://twitter.com/onion2k
Isn't there some law in the US that says that if a person asks their details not to be disclosed, then the company, has to comply? Can anyone with a good knowledge of US law confirm or deny this?
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Agreed. This is flamebait.
Eye of Argon at +1 LIVES!
I never saw more than 2-3% difference. I really have to disagree with this. Each of my online purchases has been much cheaper than what I would pay at the local Best Buy or any other real store where they significantly mark up the price. Sure you're supposed to pay for shipping but if you check enough online sites, you'll always find someone who is doing a promotion where you get free shipping. Combine that with no tax on Internet purchases and you definitely come out ahead online.
I second your nomination. Expect a Katzicle today....It will something like this: In today's increasingly intrusive world, personal information has less of a chance remaining private. The deprivatization of information has occurred primarily from the technologies springing forth from Silicon Valley, commercialized universities, and electronic networking of the world. Marauded into a corner, today's consumer has little choice but to either accept the release of personal information or become a on-participant in the global economy. What is the role of technology in assisting the consumer from the involuntary release of personal data? ....BlahBlahBlahMoreHotAirFromJonKatz.
I didn't go to LWE.
But Hemos's reply to the LinuxPower story makes it sound like there were some real juvenile people there.
As far as the Slashdot people acting like kings, maybe someone had inflated expectations. I don't know what the author expected at the Slashdot/OSDN booth, but he was probably one of just another 1000 geeks hanging around there expecting to get noticed. Taco and Hemos could spend all day shaking hands, do nothing else, and still piss people off. I'll be honest, I was impressed when Hemos replied to my wedding congratulations, I figured he had 100's of emails, and better things to do.
George
(mind you this is before Amazon diluted itself by selling so much crap, that buying books became a pain)
Wow they really do sell Crap
-=MeMpHiStO=-I have been boycotting Amazon since the patent fiasco.
Now I have deleted credit card info, mailing addresses, and broke my email and user names. (BTW, there is now a "Georgette Orwell" who Amazon thinks shopped there from 1997 until early this year.)
I suggest everyone do something similar.
-T
Apparently, the policies differ from country to country. Slightly. Or else they didn't update the German policy information page yet. It still says something on the lines of "No data will be given to third parties - except for anonymous analysis and improvement of the database." And statistics may be given to others - no surprise there. For those who want to have a look (and can read German): amazon.de
'final' means 'the last', not 'the latest'...
Goddamned Christians. Gas a few more, why don't you.
And learn to spell. Jews usually get that much right, at least.
Eye of Argon at +1 LIVES!
...and then someone else can sell our personal info. Swell. Right now your personal info is already being sold left and right and there's not a whole lot you can do about it. Your options are to either enact some legislation to protect your personal info, shop offline with cash or get used to it.
Ita erat quando hic adveni.
The right to be anonymous and the right to privacy *are* *two* *separate* *matters!*
I might want to be anonymous, if I lived under an opressive government, or did something my neighbours would not like (or did something criminal). Privacy, I want regardless of wether someone has a database on me or not. If Amazon has an automated script that picks out books I'm likely to buy, that is not a privacy issue. If someone calls me in the middle of dinner to sell me books, it is a privacy intrusion, regardless of wether they got data from amazon or simply rolled up my number.
I want laws that regulate the *use* of personal data rather than the act of collecting it. If my data cannot be used by telemarketers, there is no longer any point for dotcoms to collect more than they need.
All opinions are my own - until criticized
I am so sad at how most of course can easily talk, but when it comes down to taking actions. Can't. After the one-click patent thingy, Everyone was yelling, boycott Amazon! Vote with your money! Since then, I have actually done so. I have never purchased a single item from them! I use their site, to checkout books, perhaps read user reviews, but when it comes down to buying, I find other sites. I am just curious to how many people are still maintaining their boycott?
------ Curiosity killed the cat. {satisfaction brought it back | it didn't die ignorant | lack of it is killing mankind
Absolutely.
In the physical world:
- Pay with cash, whenever possible. (You may be surprised where it is possible.)
- Company/Vendor not local? Pay with money orders. They aren't personally identifiable.
- Don't join discount clubs that track your purchases.
- Modify your signature if it's being digitally retained: Best Buy, UPS. (I add a +)
- De-list & De-info your phone numbers.
- Use a post office box.
In the online world:- Fill out forms with only the minimum required information. Try not filling out anything, odds are the site will let you know what you *must* fill in.
- Use fictitious information for registrations if you're not purchasing anything. You don't have to lie, make it clear this is not valid info: Pseudo Name, 123 Street, City
- Use initials if you must provide a valid address. That way at least you know where they bought your address.
- Email accounts are free. Use them.
The real problems arise from companies utilizing your purchase (credit card) and shipping (address) records. This I know of no way to adequately prevent, but as was pointed out in this thread, this is nothing new. In the US when you get married, the clerk's office may sell your information. When you get your driver's license, you may have to specify that you don't want your info sold. You can't prevent all abuse, but you can limit it, and where you can, you should.No, it's not as convenient as using credit/debit cards for everything. No, it's not easy to deal with internet companies. (But, if you can't find a phone number/address to deal with, perhaps you don't want to be dealing with the company anyway.) No, it won't solve everything.
But, yes, it will save you charges, fees and assorted headaches. Yes, it does provide a modicum of privacy. Is it worth it? You'll have to decide for yourself. I think so.
---
"The Constitution...is not a suicide pact."
"Life. Don't talk to me about life."
Amazon also keeps records of items sent as gifts. If you had them ship a book directly to somebody esle, they have a record of the recipient's reading habits, too.
So, now an insurance company can find out my Uncle Willie has been reading up on tesitcular cancer's early warning signs.
Bummer.
Browser? I barely know her!
Ok, what happens to people who have signed for an account *before* this change in policy?
As far as I know, when you sign up for such a service, you agree to the terms of usage displayed to you at that time. You are not forced to agree to the change in policy later on. Call up Amazon and request for an IMMEDIATE deletion of your account or change of personal info.
Of course, Amazon might tell you its done and still sell your info afterwards, when it goes bankrupt(yay!). The question is: How do you know your info has been deleted? What will prevent Amazon from selling information about customers who signed up *before* the change in policy?
Do you Americans have some law that can help ?
Thanks for reading
Forget that noise about Amazon - this line from the article bothered me even more. Has anyone else heard about this?
This is NOT the same as selling data I willingly provided to Toysmart or Amazon. One involves consent and the other does not. I agree with the /.ers who are saying the Amazon news is no big deal - it's not. Although changing user agreements after the fact is a bit underhanded, I'm not concerned about my personal data. Brick and mortar and credit card companies sell it all the time. If you don't like it then pay with cash and don't give Radio Shack your address. Or you don't shop online. Simple.
But DoubleClick's plan sounds so much more sinister. The thought of being stalked while I surf is disturbing enough - but I can't abide the possibility of receiving all kinds of spam (both regular and electronic) simply because I visited a site. I'm all for target marketing - that's why I don't mind giving my info to Amazon, Buy.com (when I buy something) and signing up for emailing lists of my choosing. But just because I go to a site looking for erotic pictures of Jennifer Lopez does not mean I am on the prowl for a new buttplug.
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We want some answers and all that we get
Some kind of shit about a terrorist threat
- Ministry
By definition, a privacy policy is an arrangement to not reveal something. If it can be changed later without the customer's knowledge, what good is it?
Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where he reserves a car, and when he gets to the rental place, finds out his reserved car is gone. Anybody can take a reservation, the whole point is to keep it, he reminds the clerk. It's the same with a privacy policy. What good is it if it is sold off later?
There seems to be no solution to this. nobody can guarantee that a company will stay in business, and there's no law that prevents a privacy policy from being changed (or they wouldn't be doing it).
Is there an industry standard which can be realistically followed, and is there an incentive for it?
LL.
As someone working in insurance, I can tell you that they are really fired up about cross-selling data. Make sure if you ever buy an insurance policy for anything, pester your agent to death that you will not accept the policy issue until some promise is made on paper that your name will not be sold to anyone else, for any reason, period. If they can't promise, walk away. And eventually they'll get the message (Agents are usually pretty good about pestering the home office if policies are not being sold for some reason)
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You were a moderator with 5 points. You should have read the moderator guidelines before you did any moderating
This brings up an interesting issue. Why do all subscription/registration systems provide Sign Up Here! methods, but not Get Out Now! methods?
On occasion, I have signed up for various services online, from newsreaders to tea companies. Over time, for various reasons, I have decided to stop using some of these services. But at the website, I can't unregister. I have no way of completely removing my information and account. I have no way to ask that my name be at least deactivated and at best deleted from their databases. Why is this? Shouldn't I be able to get out as easily as I got in? Wouldn't it even be beneficial to these companies to save the cost of maintaining info on someone who is no longer interested or satisfied with their products?
DBA's out there...is it feasible, practical, to completely remove a user's record from your data on request? Obviously you can't nix the transactional records, but could you pull the salable information if I asked you to? When I call up and ask you to remove my info from your systems, do you? Do I have any way to verify that you have?
In Amazon's case (and many others, I suspect), I would have carefully checked the privacy policy before I first gave my details. But when major changes such as these come about, suddenly, I have no method to dissent. I can't get my information deleted, and I can't un-join now that the policy is no longer satisfactory.
At the very least, changes like these should only be allowed to be valid from the time of the change forward. So, transactions I made in the past, under a previous policy, would not be eligible for sale. Transactions going forward after notification, would be. Then, if I had the ability to delete my details, I would be satisfied (albeit not happy) with the process.
---
"The Constitution...is not a suicide pact."
"Life. Don't talk to me about life."
This is not flamebait, this is a happy amazon customer wishing to express his opinion on the matter.
I've been using Amazon.com since 1997. In that time I've bought hundreds of books, CD's, DVD's, VHS's and, more recently, electronics. I have no problems with Amazon keeping my customer info. This way, I actually get things that *I LIKE* on my front page whenever I log in. They have my preferences down quite well. I just bought a 61" TV from Amazon too, and received it in a week with free shipping. That's way better than the local Circuit City was going to do for the same price.
Rob, I have no idea what you're talking about when you say that book buying is so much more annoying now that they sell all kinds of crap. You search for the book, you add it to your shopping cart (or 1-click) and you're done. There's virtually NO difference in book buying now as opposed to before Amazon diversified. Opinions like the ones Rob stated seem to me to be rationalizations of "why we should hate amazon".
My experience that Amazon's customer service and quick delivery has always kept me pleased. WAY more so than Fat Brain or Barnes & Noble who have both delayed several orders by an inordinate amount of time without so much as sending me an email explaining the situation. FatBrain has especially horrible for this -- being out of stock, mis-estimating ship times, messing up shipping information, etc.
If Amazon goes bankrupt, of course I care that my info goes out, but how does this differ from old mail-order catalogues of the past? The technology is more sophisticated, but there is nothing stopping Sears, LL Bean or Eddie Bauer from keeping track of your purchase history. If they go bankrupt or are sold, there's nothing stopping that data from getting out. I care about my privacy, but I also understand that Amazon is not *freely* selling my info, they're just allowing for the possibility of this if they go belly up.
It's quite hypocritical how techies scream when politians want to apply a "new standard" to the Internet in terms of censorship, but themselves want to apply a "new standard" to the Internet for privacy laws.
If they want to try to patent 1-click, that's their choice, and it will be decided in the courts. In the court of customer service, they've won by my experience. It's just a matter if they can turn that into profits some day.
-Stu
Are privacy policies legally binding? It seems pretty irrellevant what their policy might be in the case where they are acquired by another company -- what do they care if the new owners violate their policy?
It certainly makes sense that customer info goes to the new owner if the business gets sold. It would be nice, however, if the new owner were held legally accountable to the old privacy policy though. Otherwise they could get bought by doubleclik or some such company and all the info you thought was private is suddenly getting auctioned off to the highest bidder.
Just my completely uniformed opinion, of course.
-- It only takes 20 minutes for a liberal to become a conservative thanks to our new outpatient surgical procedure!
Umm no? Your link is for advertisers to opt out. For consumers? This one is the right one
p rivacy.htm
http://www.doubleclick.net:8080/privacy_policy/
--
-- I have marked myself unwilling to moderate-- I don't have other accounts to artificially inflate the karma of
t_t_b
--
I think not; therefore I ain't®
I'm on PJ's "enemies" list! Are you?
now, why is this in the "from the time-to-cancel-accounts? dept."?
you cancel an account, I doubt it gets deleted from their database. it's probably just flagged as inactive.
truth be told, it is an asset that can be resold. UNLESS they specifically told you when you signed up that they wouldn't resell this information. If so, and they do resell it, then those are probably grounds for a civil suit.
I personally can't remember if they stated in the submission form whether they stated that they wouldn't resell this information, so I can't say whether there is grounds for any suit. Also, they said that it's only in the case of bankruptcy, and I don't see that happening. Also, merger/takeover doesn't count as bankruptcy.
I don't know why people keep going to Amazon? If I want computer books, the best place is www.bookpool.com. If I want any other book, I search on www.addall.com. And let me tell you that Amazon is almost never the cheapest on these lists.
I use a cell phone, and never answer the (emergency only) land line. Oh, and I had applied for this cell phone from another cell phone, and then cancelled the first one. They have no number other than my new cell to contact me. Solicitors are not allowed to call cell phones because it incurs a user cost also. I use a P.O.Box, so that people can't tell where I live, and I intend on changing it every year so that I won't get any mailings I don't want. It makes it somewhat inconvenient, since all of my bills go there, but I figure I can always update the information when necessary. I didn't forward any of my school information to the new workplace I have.
Basically, I'm making it as difficult as possible for anyone to track me for a prolonged period of time. If they're going to collect information about where I am, I can endeavor to change that fact.
yours,
yours,
kbs
I don't see the problem really. Amazon should be put out to field, they rarely give as large of a discount as fatbrain or bn.com. I mean really, quit using them all together, maybe they will straighten out!!? They are probably going to be going downhill if they don't straighten that shit out.
I'm not using one yet.
In order to be in business at all these days, companies have keep a huge database of stuff. Not just the normal things, like what you sold, when, and for how much. Remember, we use book-entry settlement to buy and sell things: checks, credit cards, direct-debit/deposit, even ostensible credit-card transaction gateways like PayPal. Book-entry transaction settlement means that a company has to know who the they did business with as well -- down to their customers address, and, sooner or later, their biometrics as well.
The reason for this is that we have to send someone to jail if they lie about a book-entry transaction, or, frankly, those transactions won't clear, much less settle, and we're back to the days of personal store credit and bales of paper bearer certificates, all of which cost much more to use than just calling the cops.
So. You're in a finance department, say at Amazon. You've got a huge database with all this stuff in it, names, addresses, phone numbers, who bought what and for how much. You pay an enormous amount of money keeping it around, massaging it, storing it, reporting on it. It's gotten so necessary to have, in fact, that because it's all there, the government now wants to see it all, once a quarter, so they can tax and regulate you with it. A fine kettle of fish, indeed.
So, what are you going to do to make money with all that information, to cover some of its enormous cost? You call the Marketing guys, of course, and get them to sell it...
I expect, by the way, that the cheapest way to do transactions, particularly on the net, will be digital bearer transactions, with cryptographic protocols like blind signatures, or X-Cash, or MicroMint, or Mojo, or something like that, but I'm supposed to say that, because it's my job.
In the meantime, don't be surprised if anyone with a database full of book-entry transaction history sells that information, for whatever they can get for it, and that they will even create legislation allowing them to do that, probably with the word "Privacy" in the title somewhere.
This especially holds true for the book-entry transaction companies themselves, like VISA/Mastercard, or, unfortunately, even PayPal itself. Because, even if by law a company can't directly sell that that information, they can, at the very least, always merge, right?
_________
---------- Financial Crypto is the Only Crypto That Matters
If you combine this change in policy with a timely article at cnews http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1007-200-2664088.html? tag=st.ne.1002.bgif.ni perhaps Amazon is already preparing for its ultimate demise.
humm the bad part is i don't think they let customers remove their info from the amazon site... so i am hosed. g
That is the fucking last straw.
Im tired of spammers too. This whole
thing is a load of shit. Fuck Amazon.
If i get a spam orriginating from one
of their 'parterns' ill see them in court.
I agreed to no such thing 8 months ago.
Maybe...
We reserve the right to make changes to our site, policies, and these conditions of use at any time.
IMO, privacy policies are a frappin' joke. They don't mean shit if the terms can be changed at a corp's discretion.
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We want some answers and all that we get
Some kind of shit about a terrorist threat
- Ministry
I called their customer service number because there is no link I could find on the web site for cancelling one's account.
Toll-free in the U.S. and Canada: (800) 201-7575
Outside the U.S. and Canada: (206) 266-2992
I was on hold for quite a long time (about 15 minutes) so they appear busy. Their computer system was running slowly, too; it took several minutes to locate my account record.
The customer service person was completely unfazed by my request to delete my account information and my complaint about the revised privacy policy. I suspect mine was not the first call for that purpose today.
If company A sells your data to company B then two companies have your data. If company A goes bankrupt and sells your data to company B then one company has your data. Maybe it's not that bad?
...cluttered with junk.
/. because they do still have good stuff to offer; I've just had to use their filters to keep the garbage from clouding my view.
;)
I still visit
Amazon still offers great prices on books. Who cares about the stupid 1-Click thing...I'm sure Pepsi Co does much worse stuff, and I doubt that CT has stopped drinking Mountain Dew!
Grow up, my millionaire friends!
Patrick
PS- I don't mean to mislead you...I am *not* a millionaire!
huh - never bought anything beside books from amazon, and that was only twice... By the way, the rest of your rant is really stupid. Blaming shareholders for wanting a little return on their investment reaveals the level of intellect you have. When you have thousands (or millions) of dollars invested in a company, you'd like to see them turn a profit, raise the share price, and pay dividends (apparently no one cares about that anymore). I'd say that long term investment strategy is a little more important than you saving three bucks on a DVD. If they make bad decisions, then so be it, but that's their problem, not yours.
Jon Katz - the worlds biggest waste of time and bandwith.
Thank you so much for having said exactly what I, too, believe...but in a much less flamebait manner! ;)
Well done!
Patrick
Where do you (whoever you are) get off moderating this as "flaimbait"?! Come on!
I ordered $ 194 worth of books at amazon last Thursday, and I have to admit, I'm not impressed anymore - and I've been a loyal customer for years.
3 F-39902617-prod5
To start, despite all the books I ordered being "Usually ships in 24 hours", my order was not shipped until Saturday - two days after the order. I remember when orders were almost invariably shipped a few hours after being placed.
It added somewhat to my irritation that, although the order was placed on the 24th and shipped on the 31st, it claimed delivery would be between the 31st and the 5th. Since shipment via UPS ground almost invariably takes three days, this was an absurdly pessimistic range. My order actually arrived, to my relief, on the 30th - just when I thought it would.
Finally, out of the ten-odd items I ordered, instead of sending me William Goldman's sequel to Adventures in the screen trade, they sent me a well-written but surely unrelated SAP: The Inside Story. I'm not inclined to send it back, since that's more trouble than it's worth, but I'm not inclined to appreciate what they did, either. Any suggestions as to what to do about this would be appreciated.
Now, I wouldn't be that upset about this if it weren't for the fact that poor service from Amazon now appears to be a common complaint. See this review:
http://www.epinions.com/book-review-217D-2788EE
After seeing their current service, I have to agree entirely. It's sad to see this kind of decline in a one-time king of customer service, despite their recent privacy problems. But there it is.
D
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The reality of it is that your info will be sold and spread all over the place. My complaint is that no mail clients really make it easy to cope with spam. Many have "junkmail" features, but they really need to be improved from a usability standpoint. I would like my mail client to have a button and shortcut key that will delete the currently selected messages and add them to a filter that will make any other messages from them go away. Calypso probably has the best implementation of such a feature, although it needs improving, imho. This feature should be really quick to use so that the impact of spammail on your day is minimal.
What did the author mean by the "one-click-shopping patent" ? Are you trying to tell me that Amazon.com is attempting to patent the single click? Let me guess, they will attempt to extract royalties from any other company that sells or has sold a good or service on the internet, correct?
I hate to get off subject but I've never heard of this. Does anyone have a website, article, or proof? (I do believe you, I just want to learn more)
Do they honestly think they can get that through the patent office?
Just got off the phone from an Amazon representative, and found to remove an account from them all you have to do is send email to account-remove@amazon.com from the email address the account is under. I have just sent mine off and await my removal...
According to their Conditions of Use agreement, you did. That's why it's call Conditions of Use - if you don't like the conditions, you don't use it. Meaning, if you don't give consent, then you take your business elsewhere. When you choose to shop at Amazon, you made your choice to consent.
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We want some answers and all that we get
Some kind of shit about a terrorist threat
- Ministry
First off, there is lots of information being passed around on you as we speek. There is NO notification that you get when this happens, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Its to late your information is out there being analized, sold and reanized all the freekin time. No company ever tells you when they sell you informaion - this also go's for the government.
Amazon.com is the only company decent enough to let you know what they are doing with your information, and yes if you don't like there policy then you don't have to shop there. That's why the sent out the press release in the first place, but to bash Amazon.com because its doing what every other company does (including the Government) is just plain retarded. You don't see any other companies with the guts to do what Amazon has done... so give the company some damn credit, even you never buy something from them again.
I, for one, sent a letter to amazon.com asking that my account be deleted. (Who knows if they'll actually honor that request!)
The "everybody else is doing it" argument doesn't work for me. Maybe if they lose 1, or 10, or 100, or 1000 customers because of this decision, then they or other might be wary of making the same decision in the future.
You better keep shopping with us, or we'll go out of business and tell the whole WORLD what you've been buying!
- Isaac =)
Sure, privacy realistically died a while back, such with mail-order, credit cards, Radio Shack, and the like. BUT that doesn't mean the people here who are clamoring for more privacy ONLINE should just shut up! I think there are a few reasons why this is coming up now.
1. Internet business is coming to the forefront of the media, ESPECIALLY HERE. Look at how many YRO articles are about privacy policies.....
2. Much of the readership here is younger (like me) and so we're just now realizing the EXTENT to which privacy has gotten shot to heck.
3. They're clamoring for better privacy ONLINE because they see that that is starting to become a problem.
4. Maybe they should try for more privacy in the real world too... it's just harder sometimes to do this.
So anyways, don't slap them down just because they want more ONLINE privacy while not looking at the offline side of it...
And on a personal note, what really irks me is the CHANGING of the policy, and having that be retroactive on all of the people who have given personal details before. That's just WRONG.
Have a nice day.
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"Amazon.com does not sell, trade, or rent your personal information to others. We may choose to do so in the future with trustworthy third parties, but you can tell us not to by sending a blank e-mail message to never@amazon.com... If we decide to change our privacy policy, we will post those changes on this page so that you are always aware of what information we collect, how we use it, and under what circumstances we disclose it"
I'm going to try that email address when I get home (to my email address of record) and see what happens. In any case, I probably won't be buying from them any more.
Got a beef? Plug a name into the Bizarre Rumour Generator!
Problem solved.
WWJD -- What Would Jimi Do?
(Smash amp, burn guitar, take home the groupies)
I just finished a phone survey about Amazon.com and Wal-Mart. They first called me about a week ago wanting to know if I used the internet. Today, they called me back and spent about 10 minutes asking me questions about Amazon.com (what products do they offer, how many times I've bought from them, etc.), then spent about 10 minutes asking me the same questions about Wal-Mart.
And they started the interview by asking me if I'd heard anything in the news in the last few days about Amazon.
Food for thought...
I like to protect my privacy, but I hope companies that provides good services to last.
Amazon has been losing money since day 1 despite its huge customer base and shipping volume. If they are going to be around then they HAVE to make a profit. The way I see it, they either have to find other revenue sources or increase the prices.
For the first option, they are already selling not only books but toys, music, and many other stuffs. What else could turn the margin to the postive side? Raise the price will drive away at least some of their business to competitors. Remember the next store is only one click away and there are programs that will automatically check the prices on other sites for you. The customers almost ALWAYS know where to find the lowest price! How much do they have to raise the price to break-even? I don't know, but I think a 5% premium (over their competitors) will probably drive a BIG chunk of their customers away.
I really can't blame them for viewing the customer's data as a souce of income. IMHO, that's their biggest assetts. So if they get another policy out, saying they'll NOT sell your information by default. But if you are willing to let them sell it, they'll give you a 5% discount. So people can opt-in and save a few bucks if they don't care THAT MUCH. The rest could be assure that their data is confidential.
I think it's only fair either to pay for the goods and service or let someone subsidize (and gain access to your data).
Prolog and Lisp are both incredibly beautiful and useful languages, and people who don't like them should be kicked in the shins. Hard.
TO BUY A NEW CAR WOULD MAKE YOU SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.
If you want to stop invasion of your privacy, here is your chance to do something.
All web sites--indeed all businesses--should have the same privacy policy:
1. All information submitted by a customer is to be used for that transaction only.
2. The information submitted belongs to the customer, not to the business.
3. The business may not use that information (except in aggregate, anonymous form) for any use other than that specific transaction without prior WRITTEN approval from the customer.
4. This policy will never change. (Or, that if the policy should change the customer must agree to the change in writing and that any changes would not apply to previously collected data unless specifically authorized by the customer.)
If you want privacy, act now. Write to Amazon.com and ask them to delete all information related to you. Then tell them that you will never make another purchase from Amazon.com or a subsidiary until the above privacy policy is in affect with full legal guarantees.
It's up to us. Stand up for your right to privacy, or lose your rights. There are no other options.
...why people get so up in arms about collecting and selling consumer information? Who cares who knows your buying habits? My local grocery store, like many others, has a customer discount card which allows me to buy items at sale prices, in exchange for giving them tracking information of my purchases. I save a surprising amount of money, and get to fill their dataset with outriders from my peculiar shopping habits. Why do people get so upset over this?
Your credit card company already has and has sold the information of everything you buy over the internet anyways. Why would companies even want Amazon's records if they already have the much better credit card records?
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I am the dot in slashdot.org
Now, I am not a lawyer here, but it seems to me that they can not sell the information they may have on me prior to their changing the privacy policy. I agreed and signed up prior to that so my info prior to that should be safe. Should I buy anything from there in the future (not likely now) then yes, perhaps they can sell it. Though, only if they bring up the modified privacy agreement prior to me hitting the big OK button. What do you guys think?
tinfoilmedia
Did you find any? URLs?
Me pican las bolas, man!
Thanks
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Me pican las bolas, man!
Thanks
Jaco
I'd do it myself (if I actually owned a computer). Go to this site from DoubleClick and they'll give you a new cookie.
The Original Celebrated Curiously Strong GHOST (mentha lemures)
IANAL (Bob be thanked), but....
We reserve the right to make changes to our site, policies, and these conditions of use at any time
Sure, they can change the conditions. What they can't do is have these new conditions apply retrospectively to a pre-existing contract. When you shop (or even browse) at Amazon, you enter into an implicit contract with them, that by using the site, you're accepting their terms (as defined to apply to browsing shoppers). If you then buy something, you enter into further contracts; a contract to buy books and pay for them, and also a contract over data collection according to the terms for purchasers. This is a binding contract on both parties, even if no payment is exchanged for it. Amazon can't retrospectively change their existing agreements, just because they make a new policy for the future ones. Equally, the previous contract with Amazon can't be upheld against a liquidator if Amazon go bust, because the legal entity that was a party to the contract (Amazon) no longer exists. OTOH, if the company went into official receivership, this contract still would be valid, as the original entity is still in existence.
Once again I say, read Lawrence Lessig and why we don't need "a law of the horse".
I think Amazon have behaved responsibly and reasonably here. The Toysmart issue raised a real problem, and they've addressed it, not just hidden or ignored it. It's not a good result, but it wasn't Amazon's doing.
BTW, I'm no Amazon apologist or PR flack (I've made this same point previously and had flame mail over it). Re: the OneClick patent -- I hope Amazon get themselves nailed to the wall over that, and the US PTO is burnt down by a rioting mob of peasants armed with pitchforks, screaming to burn the monster lest it destroy us all.
If you still want us to close your Amazon.com account, please write
back to us at the following e-mail address:
account-close@amazon.com
This is the Amazon (c) book review of their best seller [emphasis added] : Seth Godin, one of the world's foremost online promoters, offers his best advice for advertising in Permission Marketing. Godin argues that businesses can no longer rely solely on traditional forms of "interruption advertising" in magazines, mailings, or radio and television commercials. He writes that today consumers are bombarded by marketing messages almost everywhere they go. If you want to grab someone's attention, you first need to get his or her permission with some kind of bait--a free sample, a big discount, a contest, an 800 number, or even just an opinion survey. ***Once a customer volunteers his or her time, you're on your way to establishing a long-term relationship and making a sale. "By talking only to volunteers, Permission Marketing guarantees that consumers pay more attention to the marketing message," he writes. "It serves both customers and marketers in a symbiotic exchange."*** ...exchange this...
Regards, timf.
More seriously, though, most privacy policies are garbage. I'm not a big fan of regulation, but there has got to be something that enforces good practices here, since the vendors clearly don't give a shit.
sulli
sulli
RTFJ.