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Playstation 2 Basic?
onion2k writes: "Looks like us UK dwellers are getting something for the Playstation 2 that no one else in the world is (apart from an inflated price and a long delay). PSX2extreme are reporting that the UK Playstation 2 will ship with a version of YABasic, a programming language for the little black box. Few details at the moment, except that rather than Sony being nice its a tax dodge. Still, bonus." I know CowboyNeal is still waiting for his PS2. Gotta admit, I'm curious what you could do with BASIC on a PS2.
And imagine how much better those cheap-ass sprites will look on your shiny new PS2...
Better yet, I should just swim right on over to Europe, buy about 6 PS2's, and sell them here in the US for about $16 billion apiece! Yeah... then I can retire to Costa Rica...
and for those of you who are wondering "Why Costa Rica?" - I don't know... it just sounds cool, don't you think?
Hi! This is the Sig, blatantly attached to the end of this comment.
BASIC was the first language of MicroSoft and a
mainstay through Visual Basic & ActiveX- a
lifetime of almost 25 years. Its only recently
they will be making their C/C++/Java variant C#
the main language.
Teenagers learnt how to program in their bedrooms on computers they got from Santa, then grew up to found and work at companies like Psygnosis, Codemasters, Silicon Dreams, Eidos, Ocean, Rare, etc.
Does my bum look big in this?
Sony has a long history of being secretive Actually, Sony had an amateur-oriented dev-kit for the Playstation called Net Yaroze. It enabled anyone with £500 and sufficient skill to have a go at writing honest-to-god PSX software.
The import taxes on game machines and computers are different. By shipping these with this, SONY can claim that no matter what is is, the Playstation is a computer not a game console. Sigh, when can we all get together and not be honk around by the lawyers...
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It appears to be a simple attempt to avoid import duty into the EU of 2.2% that would apply to video game consoles.
The thinking seems to be that if it ships with BASIC this makes it a programmable computer, thus being eligable for another import catagory, which has import duty of 0%. Customs may not take the same view, so this could end up in the courts. (IANAL but used to work importing goods from Japan and the USA)
If this is the case, then expect the BASIC app to be on all PS/2 sold in Europe, since UK customs duties are harmonised with the rest of the EU. (BTW the taxes on booze and fags that mean they are more expensive in the UK are excise duty, which is set by member states, rather than import duty, which is harmonised, and applies in this case)
Actually, didn't all non-Japanese versions of the PS2 have their DVD decoding moved from firmware to hardware 'cuz of that "Oops, we forgot the Macrovision!" debacle?
Actually, they forgot the Macrovision on the American version. The day of the US launch, I tried taping a clip or two off a few DVDs that couldn't be taped off my normal DVD player. Sure enough, no Macrovision this time around either. Wonder if this is going to merit a recall. If it wasn't for the overwhelming lack of supply, they might have been able to make one quickly and quietly.
I think Rob or someone should post the same article 10 times in one day, just to make the heads explode of all the people that complain about it every time. Then we wouldn't have to listen to them.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
Sega's got semiconductors. They are using their own proprietary GD-ROM system, and of course like most other game systems only support native formats, you can't play N64 games on it? There is supposedly a system to play PS1 games on a Dreamcast, but that means Sony gets the game licence fee without loosing money on selling the game system itself, instead Sega looses the money.
Frankly, IMO the average Sony product line is much higher in quality and usability than most other tech company's products, excepting the console or computer markets. Shameful capitalisim or not, the Sony products I own WORK. I'm not going to go out of my way to pay for a non-proprietary product that doesn't work as well.
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10 PRINT "You are in a small room. There is a glowing lantern on the floor. You have a broadsword and a piece of cheese."
20 PRINT "What will you do?"
30 INPUT $A
40 PRINT "You cannot ";$A
50 GOTO 10
Now, granted, this probably isn't anywhere CLOSE, but Sony has already gone into amateur Playstation programming with their "Net Yaroze" deal. It was about a $600 product with a sleek black Playstation, two black controllers, two black memory cards, and a PC devkit. It had about two megs of RAM that you could store a game created on the devkit (no textures or FMV's, obviously) and you could upload it to their website (which no longer exists, it seems). It was discontinued in the US for lack of support, but the Japanese version is still alive and kicking, and they have yearly contests.
:> I wonder how much functionality this BASIC thing will have. Probably not nearly as much.
:>
I would have killed to have had the money back then for one of those.
Still, I feel like killing my friend in the UK and taking his YABasic.
10 PRINT "This is a"
20 PRINT "Haiku program."
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
Nice of Slashdot to have an icon of an N64 controller, regardless of whatever console the story is actually about.
Chances are, this version of BASIC will make QBASIC look like a programmer's wet dream.
You just convinced me. This has to be the best reason I've ever seen to buy a PS2...
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
Recall that originally C++ used the Cfront compiler to generate C code which was then compiled as normal. Also, NQC for Lego Mindstorms is a replacement programming language that surpasses the functionality of the graphical programming tool Lego provides. Perhaps someone will build a CFront-like compiler to generate YaBasic statements from a higher level language (such as Perl) allowing for more fully featured programming.
Good point. BASIC seems so dated now, though I do remember the good ol' days of C64 and Apple II hacking. I guess we can be give thanks that they didn't choose COBOL. I'd love to see a Python front end to the PS2, just to play around with.
I find your comment incredibly offensive and ignorant. Is this because you are Chinese?
Think before you post, moron.
I like it this way. Now I can do the whorin' while my sig does the trollin'.
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
Some people are suggesting that Sony is only doing this to avoid tariffs. Supposedly the UK has a lower tax on computers, so Sony wants the PS2 to be considered a computer. Including a programming language will furthur this goal.
I have *no* idea if this is true, but if they include 2d & 3d engines (maybe textures & shiznit too) then I don't really care. That's tight.
--
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
It's the whole of Europe.
[blip][blip][blip] GO--
[blip][blip] GOT-
[blip][blip][blip][blip] GOTO
GOTO: ridiculopathy.com
In my objects and design class that I took this summer at Georgia Tech, the professor told us that either Sony or Sega (I think Sony, but I am not sure) has licensed the Squeak programming language for their game platform. Since you are not really writing standalone entities when you do this but really adding onto a OS-like image, he seemed to think any game you wrote would also fall under that license
His take on it was that since Disney (The chief developers of the language, a modern, free implementation of smalltalk, which is really owned by Apple, but is cross-platform) is the one who asked for the licence, that Sony (or Sega) just gave it to them without really paying attention to what exactly Squeak is. Anyone know if its the Playstation or the Dreamcast that this license was granted for?
--gte910h
Want to see every step I took to start my company? http://www.rowdylabs.com/blogs/pitchtothegods
But it doesn't 'call' the same 'function' (webpage). This makes it which makes it just a normal call, not a recursive one. Recursion isn't the right word.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Avoid import duty. It makes it a PC rather than a console.
I rather enjoy their digital cameras that use disks. All those flash cards are really really annoying
t
n/t
Acting stupid isn't much fun when there's someone around who knows better
So, anyone feel like porting DeCSS to BASIC?
The conclusion of your syllogism, I said lightly, is fallacious, being based on licensed premises
With ASM all you need is to type in the bootloader for the CD you just burned yourself. The whole idea of a Beowolf cluster of these to render graphics might have just gotten easier.
Domo arigato gosaimasu!
-- "I am disrespectful to dirt. Can you not see that I am serious!"
This had been posted on /. a week or two ago or something.
Now to the reply on this message.
I agree. Although I'm pretty sure the levy tax is the real issue for creating this, I really think its a great idea to place a programming package on consoles to help out kids or anyone wanting to learn how to program. I got my start on a Magnovox Odyssey 2 with their Assembler. Then I went to the TRS-80 Color Computer with its Extended BASIC and the EDTASM+ cartridge.
Kids I think can relate more to programming on a gaming console than a computer (at least initially).
Chris
...as long as they implement storage of some sort, along with PEEK, POKE and SYS calls this could be a useful addition, once the PS2 chipset is documented. Home users could actually write their own PS2 games, and make them fast enough with assembly-level support.
Can anybody say "type-in games from Compute!s Gazette"? I thought you could. It's the C64 all over again!
--
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
So, the net effect is that the import taxes will be changed. Computers will be charged the same taxes as game consoles.
They may have sidestepped the issue this time, but that won't be a long term solution.
I hope you Europeans don't mind paying extra for your imported computers...
The repost masters of the Universe!
Hey, their shiping YBasic! Why? So they can claim the PS2 is a home computer rather than a games console, and shirk the import tax which is higher on consoles than on home computers.
So, it's a tax dodge. Nothing special.
The only thing I can think of would be when the warez doodz rip PS2 games. Instead of just releasing them on IRC, they could put a little BASIC program in front of it. "This game brought to you by so-and-so doodz." Would be cool for a few seconds.....
btw, I've got a PS2, unopened & sealed, that I'm about to put on eBay. I'd rather not give eBay any money, I'd rather sell it to someone direct. If anyone would like to buy it, let me know.
Trains stop at a train station. Buses stop at a bus station.
Buses stop at a bus station
Trains stop at a train station
On my desk there's a workstation....
I miss when old computers/consoles/whatever like the old TRaSh 80 COCO II computers had a BASIC you could play with if you wanted to =:-) It was fun, and it was also what got me to learn to program in the first place. I was a kid, with a computer that would boot into basic, and i wanted to make a text adventure. It was fun. I hope this does the same for some kid out there. I wish they had it in the US.
I wonder if it'll be somethink like DarkBasic (which is a program designed to create a simple environment like all those old rom basic environments but allow the user to create 3d stuff and make simple games. Very cool idea, i find it a little limiting *understatement* coming from C, but for a beginner (read kid who wants to make a video game and learn something at once), it is a great system...
---
Play Six Pack Man. I
Write the fastest game of tic-tac-toe on the planet.
Burn Hollywood Burn
Amen, brother. I've been doing quite a lot of programming as a kid, and I'll never be the same again.
Warning to all kids of the world
Programming in Basic will cause you to become like me...
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
This was posted on slashdot a while ago.
Finally, I can play nibbles and pong on my 52-inch tv screen. I can compose monotone music, and output it through my 75 thousand dollar speaker system.
Actually, this is a good thing. This could renew interest in basic programming, spark interest in children and introduce them to a relatively easy programming language at a young age, and give them the ability to write their own games quickly and easily. I wonder how long it will be before we see 'programming basic for the Play station 2' on the book shelves (remembers books about basic for his TRS-80 and c-64)
I wonder how easy sony has made it for users to share, save, and import files onto the gaming console.......
Back in the late 70's/early 80's I started programming using "Bally Basic" and a calculator keyboard (Red + 1 = a, Blue + 1 = b, Green + 1 = c, Red + 2 = d, etc)
It had great graphics commands and allowed you to make games for that platform that could be saved on cassette. My first business was selling custom games for the Bally. There were only a few thousand of us with the basic cartridge, but it was a very fanatic base.
There could be a whole new generation of programmers starting due to the PS2 at 8 or 9 years old.
A nice intro would be to expand beyond the cheats present in every game and to allow people to program their own MODS ala UT/HL/Quake.
BTW, when I finally got a Vic 20 I was so happy to have 4k of RAM instead of the 2k the Bally had.
For those that scream how lame, etc basic is, it did teach me how to make something very cool with very little code.
joe chip
Actually, he said "Can you see that I am serious?!", or, more accurately, "I am indeed serious!". Check out the 4F18 episode capsule and search for 'disrespectful'.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
So can us loosers in the US get YABasic to play with?
---- Sigs are bad for your health ----
Give a hand, not a hand-out.
My general advice for little kids and programming:
LOGO, for visual stimuli, for variables and procedures.
ToonTalk, for a graphical construction environment, teaching pattern-matching and declarative rule-based programming.
Prolog and Java, once the kid is ready to forego the graphical environment.
Why Prolog? ToonTalk is based on Prolog's inference concepts, and I advocate straight Prolog after that. I think too many kids start out with BASIC, Pascal and C, and are forever bent on the idea that procedural languages are all there is to programming.
[
Whoa! Talking about getting knocked out of my seat. I was thinking exactly the same thing after reading the previous post.
Trying to start kids off by programming on a PS2 is nothing but a quick and easy way to turn the majority of them who try it off of programming. Quickly!
As soon as they realize the next 'Resident Evil Ripoff' isn't going to sprout fully grown out of their TV's with a couple clicks it's right back to the real thing for them.
I'm also not a ranting, old, frustrated 50 year old programmer. Even if I am older than 24 and started programming at around 10. Of course nothing serious until about 13. PDQ Pascal, baby!
Hey, nobody ever said English was logical; just memorize it and get on with your life. - Paul Brians
From the look so far, I think they used this BASIC program to make the actual Playstation 2 games.
GORILLAS! The game that came with qbasic for MS-DOS long ago... its gonna make a comeback now that I can easily port it to PS2!
If you have never played GORILLAS.. here is the premise. Two gorillas are perched up on top of big buildings on either side of the screen. Each player is gets a chance to throw a big ass bananna at the other player by inputing an angle and speed. First player to hit the other wins.
Good to know that we finally have the technology to bring such a game to a home system.
I was one of the people who worked on the YABasic project at Sony's Technology Group in London, where I worked on the documentation.
The YABasic had two reasons for being done. One, the UK Government was trying to classify the PS2 as a game system only rather than a more general purpose computer to tax imports. Sony has always seen the PS2 as a general purpose machine, and in the future you will see a number of toys, add-ons, applications and software that is non-gaming on the system. There are some very exciting things going on right now that may be announced soon.
The other reason that YABasic was written is that the Technology Group there is tasked with doing things that other companies don't have the time or reason to do. Games companies are busy trying to recoup their costs for the devkits and down-time from learning the system, so somebody had to show the world some of the more interesting things the PS2 could do. Sure, there is a history of hmoe enthusiast programming in the UK and that probably helped. Expect to see updates to YABasic and demo progras on magazine cover-disks and also the ability to freely swap programs on memory cards. We had great fun going retro and trying to recreate all those old-school demos - 8-Bit programs with 128-Bit fill rates!
FYI, YABasic is a fully virtualised machine, so PEEK and POKE only set variables in the interpreter and don't directly address the underlying machine. *IF* management decide to release the specs for the underlying chipsets (and press releases from Sony do suggest that it's at least licensable), then YABasic may be changed to allow direct access to the GIF, DMAC and other chips. Heck, it's all memory mapped at the end of the day.
- Robin Green
Sony R&D, Foster City.
Recursion? You must mean [re]iteration.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
It says in very small letters in the manual:"Any and all programs written using this console will become the property of Sony. By not having read this agreement you have agreed to the fact that Sony can barge into your house at any time in order to reclaim their property"
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
Hey kids! Just say NO! to GOTO!
Does my bum look big in this?
Chances are, this version of BASIC will make QBASIC look like a programmer's wet dream.
More can be done with [Basic] than you think. I was able to do write a complete TUI-based gambling simulation suite for Apple II (called place.your.bets) using only [Applesoft BASIC] and two [6502] assembly subroutines.
Still, at least they didn't try and release Perl on it. Then nobody would have been able to program the damn thing...
Will I retire or break 10K?
There was one very reason to use GOTO...in ON ERROR GOTO the void that was...
Resume next
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
Good.
Now, as an exercise, type "yabasic" into it and click the button. Whoa, the story you linked to is there! Wow!
We can all do this. We don't need 50 of you assholes posting links to previous stories. Either we know it, too, or we haven't seen the story yet and wouldn't know unless you posted the stupid fucking link.
If I wanted links to repeat stories, I'd look the fucking things up myself.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
Why is PS2 considered a computer in Britain, but a game console in the US? We didn't get YABasic with ours. That definitely makes the tax break look like the real reason for the addition of the language and attempt to classify the PS2 as a general purpose computer.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
mmm... sounds like Amos back from the dead.
;^)
Now I just want to know what names they have given the chips
.
That may be, but Sony's decision appears to be totally financial at this point. This is even mentioned in the intro paragraph.
kc.
kc.
"You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel." - Homer J. Simpson
I did a product for the Bally Arcade, circa 1979, that was a Tiny Basic programming cartridge. It used a keypad overlay to convert a 4x6 calculator keypad into an alphanumeric entry device.
It had 1800 bytes of memory, graphics and sound commands, and ran at about 100 instructions a second.
It was a big hit (for an obscure platform). A number of people used it to teach programming and stuff.
I am delighted to see this idea come back. I was even thinking of doing something like this again myself.
Here is a link to more info about it.
The US has a similar history... so do some other countries, but it is the tax break Sony is shooting for. However, if a community grows up around this (which is what did it for the computers you speak of, back in the good ol' days) then perhaps a simple programming language in a simple envrionment will inspire more kids to learn to program.
One problem with current computing envrionments is that they are too complicated for many kids. My first programming language was BASIC on a Commodore PET, and after BASIC it was Assembler, then Pascal, then C... All in fairly simple environments (I was a fairly advanced programmer by the time DOS completely succumbed to Windows)... Could you imagine Visual Studio as your first programming envrionment? Many professional programmers consider it too "busy" to work with... A friend of mine who teaches kids to program uses QBasic because it's easy, then moves the kids up to more sophisticated environments, so they can concentrate first on concepts and algorithms - then on IDEs and foundation classes and so on...
A simple environment in which to create games could be a great boon to teaching kids to program, it's too bad that Sony is not interested in promoting this system worldwide for this, and is just trying to dodge taxes (and thus will probably include lousy documentation and no support to discourage its use...)
o/~ we are pissed, we are pissed, we have to resist... o/~ - ec8or
Who the hell moderated this 'flaimbate'??
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Actually, if you wanna harm sony, buy the psx2. After all, they lose money on the hardware, not make money.
10 print " wow i can see my name on a Ps2"
20 goto 10
run
wow i can see my name on a ps2
wow i can see my name on a ps2
wow i can see my name on a ps2
wow i can see my name on a ps2
wow i can see my name on a ps2
wow i can see my name on a ps2
wow i can see my name on a ps2
wow i can see my name on a ps2
REDMOND, WA (AP) - Nintendo of America has just announced a new cutting-edge programming language: PikaLogo.
"We feel we've revived a classic programming language by combining it with a recognizable character in contemporary America," stated company spokesperson Howard Lincoln. "Pikachu is one of the best-selling and most-recognized faces in electronic gaming today and by bringing the two together, we feel that children will be able to learn to program in a comfortable environment."
PikaLogo, the first product in Nintendo's ProgramMon line, allows children to learn the elementary LOGO procedural language with the classic turtle replaced by the cartoon character Pikachu. Children enter a list of instructions for the character along with simple procedural control statements ("if A then do B" or "until C happens, do D").
Shigeru Mayimoto was not available for comment. His secretary mentioned two other products, PascalAran (A Metroid/Pascal combination) and SuperCOBOLBrothers.
PikaLogo will be released by Thanksgiving with an estimated retail price of $49.95. It has been rated E for Everyone.
...More Powerful than Otto Preminger...
This news is actually about 3 weeks old, and I am pretty sure that it is on Slashdot where I saw it. If not here, than it was at emuhq.com
Memory sticks used to be more expensive, when they first came out, but now they are usually cheaper than compact flash cards.
--
Resubmit old articles and see if they get posted again.
---
Moderators: I've got tons of accounts, do your worst.
Developers, are you listening?
Recall that originally C++ used the Cfront compiler to generate C code which was then compiled as normal. Also, NQC for Lego Mindstorms is a replacement programming language that surpasses the functionality of the graphical programming tool Lego provides.
Perhaps someone will build a CFront-like compiler to generate YaBasic statements from a higher level language (such as Perl) allowing for more fully featured programming. YaBasic may be a small step right now, but I can see technically skilled PlayStation2 programmers coming up with replacement (or at least a wrapper) for YaBasic (though Sony UK is not off the hook for supplying a cheesy language for their system).
Note: I'm kidding about using Perl. Ugh... (shudder)
-- "I am disrespectful to dirt. Can you not see that I am serious!"
oh yes... 1000 REM Room Data
...
...
...
1010 DATA "You are in a dark cave. The floor is sandy under your feet, and the walls are a cold, hard black obsidian. A cold wind rustles through you long hair as you hear the sound of the sea outside crashing against the remnants of your boat.", 2,3,0,0,0,0
90250 DATA 1, "a lantern", "A bronze lantern, covered old barnacles that prevent you from opening it up to light it"
Oh yes. I can't wait to program this on a TV screen.
This isn't even funny, this story was posted only a few weeks ago. Sheesh.
Ok, I think that is a great idea shipping a programming language. But why basic? There are lots of other languages that they could of chosen. Out of all of the languages I know (about 10+), basic has to be the worst. I can see them not shipping C, but I could easily see Java or pascal. Heck why not fortran, that's a joke to use!
But basic is so counter-intuitive and teaches bad programming practices. Look what happend to microsoft... It could happen to you.
(or that could be because I'm thinking of lunch...)
Hi! This is the Sig, blatantly attached to the end of this comment.
It would be really hard to make graphical objects in BASIC.
How do you know there won't be BLIT[?] statements in the interpreter?
Will I retire or break 10K?
Except UK stocks of PS2 are VERY limited (Sony reduced the allocation by around half a few months ago) - Argos has a hell of a lot of customers, and obviously they don't want to advertise something they probably won't be able to supply.
Richy C.
--
, I'm curious what you could do with BASIC on a PS2.
...the same thing i did with a compumate computer sitting on top of my atari 2600 about a thousand years ago, learn to program!
it's a great tool to inspire youngsters to learn computer programming.
There are two kinds of people in the world: Those with good memory.
--
Americans are bred for stupidity.
My digital camera uses nice cheap compact flash. Why can't a I get a standard palm top (read: PalmOS) that will use compact flash?
Because you're not smart enough to type
palm, and compact flash into a search engine?
Hint: TRG Pro.
Envy my 5 digit Slashdot User ID!
The DreamCast SUPPORTS WinCE. The VAST majority of games don't use it.
I would suppose, then, that you don't use x86 processors either, since they support Windows as well, eh?
Expect a kickass release from me next week:
Racing Turtles 2001!
------
Let me give you the lowdown
Take a look at the IGN preview of Sega's Dream Studio , which looks to be a complete game building toolkit. It seems kind of cut-and-paste-y (it seems like you basically reuse game elements on the program discs), but if it supports some sort of easy, flexible scripting or programming language, it could easily play Hypercard or Macromedia Director to Sony's basic... -Ross
All generalizations are false.
--
I like to watch.
I bet with the modem or broadband adaptor someone could write a BASIC program that searches previous Slashdot articles to prevent repeats. It'd be the first killer-app for a game console!
Of course then we couldn't make these lame-ass jokes either 8^)
They're appealing to no-one.
... and you can bet your bottom that I'm not going to waste my time coding in BASIC on it.
It's a tax dodge. If it's programmable it's a computer which can be imported into the UK (and other countries) at a lower rate of duty than if it were classed as a luxury item, like the games machine it actually is.
I'm due my PS2 on Friday morning
It might have satisfied the taxman, but there are better places to code than on a games machine.
--
"I do not speak for my employers, though they are controlled from my Teddy's huge pulsating brain."
You are very wrong. This is not for the programmers who code PS2, but for the home cosumer. Sony did this with PS1, they released Yaroze which was a C dev kit, the learning curve was a little bit higher, so they learned from it and made it basic. YES, it will be USEFUL, It is not QBASIC, it will support 2D and 3D libraries, so you can actually make real game! The great thing is that these libraries are done in C/Asm/microcodes, so it will be very fast, all you will worry about mostly is the logic code which is not CPU intensive.
------ Curiosity killed the cat. {satisfaction brought it back | it didn't die ignorant | lack of it is killing mankind
"By buying a Sony product which has semiconductors in it, you are supporting their crusade to proprietarize the world and become a tech monopoly.",
Ya, what computer did you use to post this crap, I am sure it has no semiconductors in it! You must be using those build a computer kit from matchbox and wire hangers kit from the early 50's.
------ Curiosity killed the cat. {satisfaction brought it back | it didn't die ignorant | lack of it is killing mankind
I think I might actually still have a copy of QBASIC Eliza lying around somewhere. Wow...you could give her a voice and everything....hmmm.....
El riesgo vive siempre!
My PC didn't come with basic or any other programming language (or in fact an operating system) and yet I doubt anyone would confuse it with a games console.
There is something very odd about this whole thing.
Sig is taking a break!
I am sorry but you are very wrong, misinformed and totally clueless. As an avid PS1 Console hacker, I can tell you that this language will do useful things. You will get 2D and 3D libraries written in C/asm/microcodes, so all you need to do is write your game logic in basic, create textures and you are ready to go! Of all the Console makers out there, Sony is actually the most open! If you call Sony secretive, what will you call Nintendo or Microsoft? I don't know much how Sega is, they might be open as Sony, obtaining the saturn devkit was an ease, tho sonydevkits was much easier (underground wise). Anyway, when I was mucking with psx around 2 years ago, I got to talk to some sony developers in .jp, who even ported the devkit then to FreeBSD and shared it!
------ Curiosity killed the cat. {satisfaction brought it back | it didn't die ignorant | lack of it is killing mankind
Sony is really bad about proprietary hardware.
Those are just the ones that have been really annoying me lately. Anyway... I wisht there were some standarsation. It's rediculous that for every single device there is a different peripheral for it. My digital camera uses nice cheap compact flash. Why can't a I get a standard palm top (read: PalmOS) that will use compact flash? You'd think that companies could show that they use the same things as everyone else and push that as a value add, however currently Sony just forces it down your throat that they put a memory stick read in every damn thing they make.
For a while I've felt that the current lack of those kinds of magazines and books is a great loss. Perhaps having BASIC in a game console will ping the creative side of these console game playing kids and spawn an interest in coding.
That wouldn't be a bad side effect.
20 POST ARTICLE_AGAI N
Burn Hollywood Burn
The PS2 has USB support, so you should be able to use any standard USB keyboard/mouse.
http://www.yabasic.de/
--
Jonathan Hunt
yes, but it is a widely known fact that BASIC is a poor language to get someone started on. It teaches poor everything :)
:) They will actually get something more out of their blackbox than a brain tumor from sitting in front of Coolboarders99 for 16 hours a day :)
I wondered for a while if anyone really cared about programming anymore.. Would kids really want to sit there and write their own games or is it going to be mostly dorks like us that are reliving our C64 days?
Let's hope it opens up a new world for many kids
Wow, just like my Atari 130xe computer. Everything old is new again. Maybe it will spark interest for a few more kids in the honorable profession of software design...
within a week we'll have trin00 and netbus for playstation
I am !amused.
I think we should have a name for acronyms like these...how about YAYAA (Yet Another 'Yet Another' Acronym)?
www.code-fix.com
I have a few comments to make on both the PS2 itself and on the whole YABASIC issue and then I'll return to my cell...
OK, the PS2...Whether or not you like any of the currently-available 35 games, it was a pretty good launch. So the "shortage" of systems was probably a scam to keep us all in line. I preordered like a sane man and got mine a few days after launch.
Yes, I know the Japanese versions of Tekken Tag and Ridge Racer sucked graphically, but have any of you actually SEEN the US-spec TTT on an S-Video hookup? It's freakin' sharper and smoother than the ARCADE UNIT! I will admit, it still not the DreamCrusher, but we're still on first-gen games not using the full power of the GS chip or its 2 GPUs. Wait until the second generation begins to give way to the third and then there'll be some visuals. As for the Bug's Life comment, no one said that would be available at LAUNCH, just that the system can approach that render-level.
Also, any REAL hardcore gamer wouldn't sit around finding *new-and-original* ways to shit on other consoles, they'd be setting up another spot on the shelf and plugging into the A/V selector! Duh!
Okay, on to the UK bonus disc. First off, freebies are always good. Remember the CueCat? So what if it IS BASIC? Done right it could have some potential. And who here didn't try at least one BASIC program on a classic Atari 130XE or C64? I wouldn't be here today if it weren't for those boxen!
Secondly, it's called USB people. Get a keyboard, type some code. Easy.
And who said YABASIC was going to be the ONLY language? Who knows, if enough people boot up and crank out some spiffy code maybe our Sony masters will up the ante. Alternatively, if yoy still think this whole YABASIC thing isn't l337 enough, then you have a nice Frisbee(r).
Oh yeah, about the tax dodge thing. So what? If I could lower my taxes by simply claiming an inanimate piece of plastic as a dependent, I sure would! (But then, Al doesn't live at my house...)
GTRacer
--No more GT3 screenshots! I'm running out of underwear!
P.S. As far as Sony's world dominance goes: If I had to be enslaved by a megacorp, it would either be Sony or Honda. Aibo, PS2 and 20-inch mecha or Mr. P3, NSX and S2000? Tough call!
Defending IP by destroying access to it? That makes sense, RIAA/MPAA. Go to the corner until you can play nice!
Am I the only one that is a bit turned off by programming with a playstation controller?
It would be really cool if they could get the rumble pack to kick in when there is an error though. I wish my computer did that.
I'm going to play Gorilla on my new PSX2 (when I get one.) This even worse than playing Intellivision games on a PSX. I for one will not code with a gamepad, although chording the 8 buttons it would be possible (although weird). Just don't make me pick the characters from the "High Score" screen format.
Hey, if they want to learn BASIC, I've got an old 486 laptop some can use.
Planning to be moderated ± 1: Bad Pun.
I heard Argos have hundreds of playstationos as they omitted to put them in their christmas catalogue so most people don't realise that they're selling them.
w00t ya crapping yaself about gt3 man get some specs i seen a cornflake llok better!! mind you i think its funny the way Sony lul you suckerz into spending ya hard earned cash on something thats looks no better than a cereal packet and ooh it has such a original name, PS2 damn i bet it took them a long time to think of that, cummon cant ppl see throught the ballshit Sony give out, buy a real console or better still ya obviously using a pc to write here, buy a decent graphics card, pc's wipe the floor w/ anything the hrm psX2 can do, heh, mugs!!
My suggestion? Either get a Dreamcast or avoid console systems altogether. By buying a Sony product which has semiconductors in it, you are supporting their crusade to proprietarize the world and become a tech monopoly.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
I could easily program Tekken Tag in basic :P
How Jaded Are You?
Recursion was the right word.
The 'clicking of the link' can be seen as a 'call'
The 'Back'-button can be seen as a 'return'
Johan V.
ooh i almost forgot, with that basic thing, why??? learn a real language like c++ Sony are taking the piss outa you!!! SEE IT!!
er,no Sony did not invent the cd!! philips did, Sony make the lasers for most manufacturers except i think for yamaha. and maybe philips i am not to sure, but i can bet ya pioneer has a Sony laser init! face it philips ownz ;)
graphics that make ya head spin??????? did i miss something???? get a life
- How would Christ benefit from me putting my tongue in someone's mouth
- How does me putting my tongue in someone's mouth make you feel.
- Huh?
- What about your tongue in someones mouth?
- Are you messing with my mind
- Would you like to talk about it
(inspiration)I can't disagree with you more. I learned C64 BASIC before I learned algebra. Because I learned C64 BASIC, learning ANSI was so easy: for loops, variables, print statements, logic analysis, just made sense in C after using BASIC. My only big glitch was learning pointers; that really threw me.
Besides, C++ is a horrible first language to learn. It's akin to teaching a first time pilot how to fly a jumbo jet; there's just too much to learn before hand. Give them a simple language to cut their teeth on; the rest will follow.
I agree, a kid with C++ skills *is* better than a kid with BASIC skills, hands down, almost everytime. But: a kid with BASIC skills is far better than a kid with no programming skills.
As for the industry standard language and OS, you obviously are looking at a pretty narrow field (Windows programming). C is still a standard for most low level devices, and rest assured, C and C++ are not standard across platforms, or even within platforms (try Borland/Visual C++ porting of the same code for the same OS).
Teaching someone a language like BASIC is great idea for a first language for so many reasons:
1) They *have* to change languages is they want to do anything useful. If someone learns Visual C++, they can moan and bitch that they don't want to change, and throw together a half-assed arguement defending their viewpoint (like you did). Not so with BASIC!
2) Basic stuff is covered in BASIC. Most of the important ideas of programming can be learned on BASIC. Looping, variables, memory access (POKE and PEEK), subroutines, etc. Advanced topics have to be covered in an advanced language, admittedly, but why would I have to know about inline functions or pointers or external variables now? Plenty of time to learn after I learn C!
3) It's EASY TO LEARN! One line of program is all you need to run a quick program! 10 PRINT "Hi" No "include"s, no boilerplate, no pre-processor directives, no semi-colons at the end! It's simple!
Well, that was an interesting lunch break...
"Don't mind me cutting myself on Occam's Razor"
That's why you aren't going to see this anywhere but in the UK.
U can design better games than TTT and RRV...
... Pimpwars!
ALG
All these "home computers" were mostly used and bought as game boxes, but their build-in basic interpreters gave a generation a chance to discover that programming can be fun.
While in general, I agree with that as a rule of thumb, there are some places where using a goto is better than not using one. And just as a point of reference:
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
I fear you are mistaken on that point. They just want to click and drool. Unfortunately the kids of today see the fancy applications/games and they think that if they start programming, they will create just as beautifull programs as they are used to.
We didn't have such references when we started. Back when WordStar was great, I was proud of my programs in textmode. It was a good way to learn programming. Now they want to start program directly with windows and mouse and 3D graphics, which of course puts the start-programming-treshold higher.... They just give up faster because their dreams are schattered.
This reminds me of a friend om my sister who came and asked me what he needed to learn Java. I guess he was expecting some answer like "JBuilder" or "Visual Age" or whatever your favorite builder is. His face changed to scheer terror when I replied: "The JDK and notepad". He didn't realise that source-code is just text. I think I scared him: he never asked me a computer related question anymore.
Oh, and if you think I'm a ranting old frustarated 50 year old programmer, I'm only 24 and started programming at 12. Makes me realise time flies fast when you code.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
Hey, you have to start somewhere. Is it a reality to expect a hole slew of 8 year old kids to want to start programming when Hello World is 5 pages of code full of magic numbers and linked against 3 or 4 different libraries? Kids will outgrow BASIC all by themselves. They will feel cramped by the lack of solid data structure support. They will yearn for the greener fields of malloc() and free(). They will want their code to run faster, and they will _want_ to link to those libraries to get at their functionality. These things will happen on their own. I say make the beginning environment as unintimidating as possible, turn off this snobbery and remember that _everybody_ has to start at the beginning. Raise no barriers to who may enter, and let those with the curiosity and drive to learn more do so at their own pace, driven by their own curiosity. Those are the people who will become good programmers, because they are looking for better solutions, and are not satisfied with what they have if they know there is something cooler out there.
There is no need to jumpstart people and drop them hungry, cold, wet and naked into the world of modern programming, i think it's healthy if they get there themselves, at their own pace, starting from their own comfortable beginning. A little preachy, but i think it matters. I tried a lot of langages out before i settled on C and C++ as my two languages of choice. If i'm working with a sane and well written class library, i'm happy. On the way though i tried out BASIC, Pascal, Assembly language (for 3 different processors), Object Oriented Pascal, Forth, and even Perl.
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Play Six Pack Man. I
I think this is the perfect answer to my AskSlashdot Article Is Early Exposure to Computers Good for Kids. I question the benefit of computers if all kids are doing is playing games. When I think about it, my first experience with computers was playing Hard Hat Mack on our Apple IIe. Less than a month later, I came out with the wonderful gem of a program:
10 print "My brother is a jerk!!!!!"
20 goto 10
From there it was a short hop to making real programs that did useful and/or fun stuff. This is what people being introduced to computers need, an easy way to express themselves on a popular platform. It will give them the incentive and opportunity to explore more how things work, rather than bragging about how many frags they got on Quake.
It may look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away.
--Scott Adams
Sony has a long history of being secretive, I would be surprised if this was anything beyond a token appease the legals implementation.
Anyone have the book "101 BASIC Computer Games" by Digital Press? It has Hunt The Wumpus and others in it. I wonder if the old BASIC games will work with the Playstation 2 BASIC?
10 HOME
20 PRINT "This is already more useful than..."
30 PRINT "X Box!"
--------========+++Dont Feed The Lab Techs+++========--------
How many times are we going to see:
10 PRINT "Sega sucks"
20 GOTO 10
On the screens?
Maybe this will at least rekindle some of the exploratory and fun aspects of computing that have been lost since the ditching of the likes of GW-BASIC. Then, just maybe, kids will actually learn and explore instead of clicking and drooling.
thenerd.
The camels are coming. I'm in love.
"Gotta admit, I'm curious what you could do with BASIC on a PS2. "
20 years after atari, the ps2 comes out. Able to do graphics that make your head spin. It's first challenge: Pong in Basic
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/11/07/033322 7&mode=nested
Why get geeked about the PS2 and this thinly supported/implemented/considered Basic?*
You can buy the Indrema and use the devkits for free... Im willing to bet there will be some serious independent development for the L600 when its available - this Sony Basic crap is a simple effort to thwart UK tax law, shame on the $ony Corporate $WHORES$ who would purposely screw the tax laws in that country... The government should quickly add a clause to the tax laws to fuck Sony back - the bastards.
Who'd have though Sony (the proprietary crap consumer product kings) would do such a thing... puhleeze
*If anyone thinks that this Basic is going to be anything even remotely central to the PS2: Why isn't It being released everywhere? And at PS2 launch?
I hate to disillusion you, but the vast, vast majority of games coders couldn't care less about the DMCA or the MPAA. As for shameful capitalism, it's so deeply rooted in western society that pointing your accusing finger at the PS2 is laughably blinkered. Get some perspective man.
"...The land of hack-er ya-yas,
:P
the land where you can't write code,
the land where large SCSI drives still hang proudly,
like testicles from RAID controllers..."
--K
Sorry. First thing I thought of.
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If I had mod access, you would have gotten 1 for funny/entertaining. :)
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
[Say NO! to GOTO!]
...and to think, I was only trying for the hip and cool way to say "GOTO considered harmful".
While in general, I agree with that as a rule of thumb, there are some places where using a goto is better than not using one.
One such place is exception handling, where I imagine 99% of gotos in C code exist. Exception handling is a noble, structured programming element, but C doesn't have it. Structured programmers emulate this useful construct with goto and occasionally longjmp(), although it doesn't quite work as well as a stack-based exception handling mechanism.
Does my bum look big in this?
The PS2 can use a standard USB keyboard and mouse, today. Just try it with Unreal...and other games support it too.
I, too, come from the trash 80 days, but what sony is doing doesn't compare. Sony's just releasing basic, they aren't giving the source code of their games out. Back in the trash 80 days, half the fun of playing games was playing them and then hacking them when you got stuck. I learned most of my coding by hacking other basic programs. Sony's not like the open source communite. I can't just go to a prompt and meander through their source code to get around a problem.
;)
what will make this interesting is if a PS2 hacks/programs user group gets formed out of this BASIC release. It might get kids interested in coding. Heck I might, finally, be able to convice by wife to let me get one! I'm coding, dear, really! It was worth every penny I spent on Ebay, dear...
"Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
The only reason that the Basic editor is being included is so that Sony doesn't have to pay a huge Tax to bring them into Europe. Having a language, makes the PS2 a computer instead of a consumer electronic luxery item, hence, no tax.
i can't wait to see people try to program VU0 and VU1 with peeks and pokes...
Without this tax-dodge which probably doesn't cost Sony that much, the PS2 would end up costing end-users in Europe even more of an exorbitant price (compared by FX rates) to the price it sells for elsewhere in the world...
Come back Clive Sinclair, all is forgiven!
We promise not to make C5 jokes!
Hacker: A criminal who breaks into computer systems
"Information wants to be paid"
I'm certian i've heard it before, just not sure if it was on /.
Ok this does a few things.
(1) it allows them to classify the thing as a pc not a console and avoid a tarif.
(2) it gives the ps2 more of a 'neat' factor which it needs now that everyone realizes the graphics aren't as amazing as we thougth they would be(they're good dont get me wrong but i heard sutff like bugslife quality in realtime.)
(3)it gives people who may have been waiting for another overpriced console (xbox or gamecube) and reason to buy the ps2. sure you will probably be able to develop for the xbox on your pc in C++ but YAbasic will likely be so much easier. add that to the need to burn stuff on to CD in order to debug it and youve got some serious reasons to buy a ps2.
distrust any enterprise that requires new clothes!!!