Slashdot Mirror
Adobe Discontinues FrameMaker for Linux
Stef Hoesli writes: "Adobe, who gave us a smoothly working beta version for Linux of their fine word processor,
will not release FrameMaker commercially on Linux.
They sent out an
e-mail to beta testers with the sad news.
"
Um, no. :)
PostScript wasn't designed for onscreen output, it was designed for resolution-independent printing, in effect moving the equivalent of MetaFont (and more) into the printer, so application programs--in theory--shouldn't have to worry about what they're printing to, as long as it's PostScript compatible.
And in practice, PostScript has done tremendously well. HP succeeded in fending it off from the low end of the market when they brought scalable fonts into PCL, but any laser printer that's more than $600 or so is going to be using Postscript or a compatible interpreter. (If it's a higher-end printer or typesetter, it's virtually guaranteed to be real Adobe Postscript.)
PDF was basically designed as a special application Postscript; a primary point was that it stores font metrics even when it doesn't store fonts, so a PDF reader can use a "master font" to recreate the document in a reasonably correct facsimile even if the fonts aren't available on the reading end. The bitch someone had about Adobe PDFs not embedding the fonts in them now is a valid complaint in one sense, but utterly misses the point in another--embedded fonts are supposed to be optional.
Also, PDF is not PostScript. PostScript is a programming language; PDF is a document format, with no support for programming constructs but with support for hyperlinks, bookmarks, and so on. It's more accurately compared to TeX's DVI format.
And, lastly, if people don't like PDF--hey, this is the open source world. Make your own alternative. But it better do everything that PDF 1.3 does, at least everything that people actually use, or it's not going to go anywhere. Of course, the PDF spec is open and fully documented--so, hell, make your own PDF writer that doesn't have an option for not embedding fonts. If XPDF doesn't handle master fonts, add handling for 'em, or make your own comparable solution--the PDF file won't care how it's getting rendered, after all.
First of all, discourage the floating away by using a location preference:
...
\begin{figure}[htb]
\end{figure}
so that TeX is encouraged to place the figure here, at the page top, or at the bottom, before assigning it to a float.
After that, the likely explanation is that you have at least one figure which is too large to fit in the available space on the page: if so, that and all subsequent floats float away to the end.
If you're including eps figures, fiddle the \epsscale value. Or try negative \vspace before and after including your figure. Hope that helps...
"I will take the Ring," he said, "though I do not know the way."
i would advise those that use frame maker of the many benefits of other products that do the same job better, and cheaper.
Right now, it's a rather awkward time to have a Motif-based app. The Linux desktop is, by and large, GTK and Qt based, and the biggest commercial apps for both Linux and Unix have either moved to one of the better toolkits (Netscape) or are in the process of going there (StarOffice). Even the venerable WordPerfect has switched from Motif to Winelib.
Motif apps are looking increasingly quaint and outmoded, and it wouldn't be terribly easy to move FrameMaker to a new toolkit. Adobe is one of the few software powerhouses that still has high-profile Motif apps out there. They're at a crossroads and they need to make some decisions. Abandon the Linux port of FrameMaker? Ok, but what about the Sun, HP, and IBM versions? They're still on Motif, even at a time when those vendors are moving to GNOME/GTK.
Adobe needs to either get up to speed with the new Linux/Unix desktop, or get out of the market.
--
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
> And to shed some more light on the insanity
> of their decision, they DO support FM on other
> unices (HP-UX for example)
>
> Do you still find that much sense in their
> decision?
Yeah, agree: I cannot believe that it has taken such a great deal of effort to recompile Solaris, HP/UX or AIX (and there used to be Digital/Tru64 version as well) version of it to run under Linux! It is only commercial viability of it as a product that mattered. If I remember correctly, there was a question: "How much would you pay for the full-featured commercial version of this product?" Now, how many of us said "Yeah! I'll pay you $799, just as much as you guys charge for Win/Mac/UNIX version!"
--AP
The interesting thing is that if a company is not comercially viable they can fail (go bankrupt, become consumed by another company, etc...).
But so long as Linux has the same type of users it did in its "pre-commercial" phase, it will continue to become more commercially viable. That's the commercial power of GPL and Open Source.
Will the release of 2.4 put a blip in those stock trends? I imagine so. What about more resctrictive and expensive licenses from M$? Likely.
Give Linux a bit more time and realize that comercial viability has not been important for a large majority of productive Linux users and developers.
-... ---
Ermm - there's a flaw in your argumentation there... You don't seem think to the fact that *IF* you buy the thing - you must *DO* something with it to get your money back.
Also - if paying for the plugins or the whole beast doesn't worth - then use GIMP... It is best for small to medium sized jobs - and *SOME* (but very few) enterprise scale things.
It all boils down to "using the right tool for the right job"
--
Give VA a break. (DISCLAIMER: I am not affiliated with VA, don't own stock in VA, and haven't thoroughly researched what I'm about to say.) The problem with VA is not that they're doing abysmally bad; the problem is that they have someone putting together financial reports who needs to clean his crystal ball. And frankly, if you're letting dropping stock prices determine the viablility of a product, then automobiles (Ford) and tires (Firestone) aren't commercially viable either.
AFAIK (and correct me if I'm wrong) their projected sales increase for the last fiscal year was 250%. Again, AFAIK, the real increase was 200%. The thing is, investors get nervous at this kind of thing. If you're not terribly close to hitting the projected goal, investors start dumping stock. Project 250% and get 200%? Dump stock. Project 250% and get 500%? Dump stock. Why dump when it goes way *over*? It shows that someone doesn't know what they're doing just as clearly as if they went under.
Sorry kids, them's the breaks. Good luck to the companies whose stocks are dropping right now. Try to set a more attainable goal this year =)
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
Repeat after me: PDF is bad.
could somebody knowledgeable please explain to me what the deal is with PDF? why isn't this format available in more applications? i was under the impression that PDF was an open standard. if this is the case, why isn't it a more standard "export" option in many programs? it's an excellent file format, especially when print-quality documents are concerned.
so could somebody who knows this format please enlighten us? and i'd prefer somebody who knows what they're talking about, not just some linux zealot that's whining about big software companies not bending over backwards to support thier favourite platform.
- j
I don't know why someone would scan things like that. Possibly because of -- assuming this is true -- the dirty little secret in my chosen profession of technical communication: PHBs will hire any incompetent nitwit who calls him/herself a "technical writer" and has a passing acquaintance with Word. Plenty of us are experienced, knowledgeable professionals, but there are some total hacks and clueless wannabees out there. And way too often, Them That Hire don't pay attention to the distinction and/or want to save a buck on salary. Why pay $50K for a technical writer when it's basically typing, right? Somebody right out school at half the salary will do nicely.
"How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
(And when I mean modify the specs, I mean that there's a process in place where changes to the specs can be freely submitted, discussed, and decided by an open group such as IEEE for inclusion or not.)
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
At this time, a commercial version of FrameMaker for the Linux platform is not available.
At this time?
Doesn't this mean there COULD be a commercial release in the future?
Maybe I'm just stupid... Yeah that's probably it.
PDF is simply Adobe trying to bring PostScript back ... the latter was slowly losing ground to such things as 'Word Viewer' and the like. They invented a compressed (and optionally encrypted) format to store PostScript files in and called it a Portable Document Format.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
I thought having any particular font was optionial with PDF because (on Mac and Windows anyway), Acrobat will use a scalable metric font to 'fake' it.
So, is this a defect in linux acroread, or is it just a case of getting different font metrics than you expect (which is feature, not a bug with PDF).
Anyway, as folks have pointed out in the past, all Microsoft's fonts are Free Beer over at www.microsoft.com/truetype, and truetype support has been added to more recent distros.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
I'm not disagreeing with you. The fact is, PDF is becoming a "defacto standard" for web sites to publish technical documentation. Of course its not a "true standard", neither is MS Word, but that is the lingua franca of business word processing.
I don't know about MacOSX pdf. Tell us more ...
Perhaps one of the reasons why Framemaker is available on commercial UNIX is that it was commonly used as an embedded component in other UNIX software. For example, it was used as the help system engine in the Geographical Information System (GIS) software Arc/Info on Solaris, AIX, HP/UX, etc.
In recent versions, though, Arc/Info has shifted to a clone of the Windows help viewer on UNIX, to make the look and feel more like Windows NT, and probably to merge more of their source code with the NT version, which is selling a lot better that the UNIX versions these days.
For these and similar application that were once UNIX dominated (CAD/CAM, image processing, machine vision, etc.) the shift to Windows NT was considered inevitable because NT systems were cheaper and required less retraining, but as we all know, the Linux revolution is challenging that assumption.
Of course, that doesn't mean that there will be a renewed demand for embedded Framemaker. Who knows what Adobe had in mind when they made the Linux beta and then decided not to release it. I would say that they are keeping their options open, though.
I am working on a project where I need to take an entire reference book currently in framemaker format and put it on the web. The book needs to be searchable, and results should limitable by by chapter and even sections/sub-chapters. I want to write code to parse the entire framemaker file and load the book into a database, separated by it's chapters/sections into a tree-like hiearchy. Then I will use PHP/SQL to make the library searchable from a website. What I am considering now is converting the framemaker file into postscript, and then using available tools to parse the postscript. Any ideas which tools/libraries can do this? Is there anything to parse the framemaker file directly? Is the framemaker format open or documented?
Adobe's still pissed off because of the gimp eating into Photoshop's marketshare. There are only two reasons to use photoshop really anymore - MacOS and color matching.
If you've written a few hundred pages of document with it, it doesn't matter whether it is a bug -- you've still got to get that report done, and an inexplicable error is a major problem.
John
John_Chalisque
I await your enlightening reply.
I wish they would give more information on the reasoning behind this? Was it market driven or did someone ask them not to ship it?
I have produced fine quality pdf's using Lout.
It ain't WYSIWYG, but then again, what is, really?
"Free your mind and your ass will follow"
Don't get me wrong, I like open source as much as the next person. But in this case I can see why it wouldn't be a good idea.
Try Lout.
"Free your mind and your ass will follow"
I say get your pirated copy. Get it, and tell your friends to get it. The Photoshop 6 install files only take up about 100MB, which equates to $7 per megabyte; however, Adobe includes "examples", "templates", and "free trial versions of other Adobe products" (blatant bloatware). Once the black market demand for Photoshop becomes stronger than the white market demand, then Adobe will probably break down and reduce the price.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
photoshop is the best program ever written, its true its true. gimp or PSP might be ok for little pics but for anything professional or half-decent its PS only. the program is just so deep, so vast, even though i've been using it daily for years i still find out new ways of doing stuff and new features. and nearly all professionals (100% of the ones i've ever dealt with anyway) use it so its handy when you want some tips or help
I test FrameMaker on Linux, and this software suck! I believe that Adobe compare FM with other good software on Linux, and know they just not able to produce good enough sofwate.
Ceci n'est pas une Signature !
See, this is why it will be very hard for Linux to overtake the desktop market. Which commercial companies (besides a handful) are embracing linux?
arrggghhh ... :) he's just another luser to in the pile... forget about him! :)
:) oooh - the fun that derives from this! :)
:) "this byte and this one and this one are all close enough to each other - we'll aproximate them with this one!":) and even more - MPEG compression applied to disks - these 2 files are alike - we'll aproximate them with something in between :)"
Though - the way MICROS~1 Windoz works - it may well use the antialiasing functions for reading and writing to disk!
what's next? JPEG Compression for files eh?
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wasn't the dragon book set in TROFF or something equally vile?
:-)
If you mean Principles of Compiler Design, then it is/was published by Addison-Wesley, not O'Reilly, even with the animal name
IIRC, W Richard Stevens wrote all his books in troff too - it was originally designed as a writer's tool, so it can't be that bad - I always used LaTeX instead simply because I was writing physics papers and LaTeX does math and structured documents so well.
"don't fall into the fallacy of believing that Perl can solve social problems. Maybe Perl 6 can, but that's a ways off"
You can add true-type support to any X installation with xfstt.
"Free your mind and your ass will follow"
And as for appearence problems, such as fonts and grainy images, that's all a problem with whomever put the PDF together. PDF's are capable of print-resolution images, but if the company simply scans in the page in typcial 'bulk workload' mode at 150dpi, then you get little benefit. And the lack of inclusion of the right fonts is the Adobe document creator, not the PDF engine itself, though there should be a default mechanism if fonts don't exist to use a default font style.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
Off topic, probably, but I believe this "every image at the end of chapter" can occur when you have mistakenly used the same label for two or more captions, which can be very easy to do when you cut-and-paste, or don't feel like being very creative with your labels.
I find the LaTeX source incomprehensible, and TeX source reprehensible, so don't ask me for a real fix. Hope this helps.
Mac OS X.
Back when Adobe made Solaris versions of thier programs, Desktop publishing shops, all wanting faster machines, didn't want to get Solaris boxes.
Why?
A lack of other tools they are used to. No powerGoo, etc la.
If you are feeding a 10 million dollar press a $150,000 print job, and are paying someone $60,000 a year, is the price difference between a Mac VS a Open Source Unix OS a worry? No.
If Apple is able to keep its user base on the move to BSD unix, eventually code will slide sideways to X86 based BSD, then X86 based *linux. So, just un-bind your underware.
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
Just think about it.
* How many dtp people use Linux? These people are not, in the main, technical types into kernel recompilation. So no market for the product. Simple economics - I have graphics dudes around me, and they like Apple Macs, and, in a few cases, Windows - they don't like Unix, and couldn't use it.
* Inferior architecture - I've used Corel Photopaint on Linux, and it looks very ugly because of the lack of things like anti-aliasing (in the OS, not at a user level - the program looks ugly).
This is a *good* and brave decision - it's better to write the money off than to pour money into the Linux blackhole of giveaway software (Photopaint, etc.) - we don't want Adobe going the way of Corel.
Free Anne Tomlinson!!
So, I dumped Photoshop completely and went with the gimp about a year and a half ago when I tried to deal with some 50 meg files in both programs. Photoshop, on a machine with twice as much ram as my home computer, took *half an hour* to save one image. I sent the image home, and guess what? Gimp could do the same thing in 30 seconds, on a slower machine.
Sorry. Photoshop just plain loses.
A WYSIWYG typesetting program, as long as the programmers and users understand that you place frames on a page as opposed to inserting things into a text stream, will do a world of wonders for Linux.
We're arguing at cross purposes, I believe. I'm arguing that a WYSIWYG combination text editor/typesetter is going to devolve into a system where most users are going to write an input stream that creates the "correct looking" output. A combination text editor/typsetter is a very bad way to edit structured documents.
You're arguing that a WYSIWYG typesetter is a good way to format a well-structured documents into a good looking output. I'm inclined to agree.
But, the "frames" that you describe seems very useful for document typesetting, and useless for document editing. For example, I'm editing a document right now -- a response to you. How would "frames" allow me to add a layer of structure to this response?
Slashdot is jumping the shark. I'm just driving the boat.
So on that page and on the requirements page it says that Framemaker 6.0 will run on "UNIX"...
For software that is open source this usually would mean just a few changes to config files to get it to compile on any of a number of flavors of UNIX. Now I am guessing that their release is just a binary distribution for Solaris or whatever, but how far away could they really be from just putting a Linux version out there as well?
Josh
So this is my take, Gimp is better then the current photoshop because: 1) it supports all the features of Photoshop
Really, so I can do my CMYK separations in it now? great!
---------------------------------------------
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
I'm not sure if your being satirical or not, but your post is the best reason NOT to use open-source software I've ever read.
How is PDF not open? It's fully defined in open literature. *Acrobat* is not an open source program, but many free programs exist that understand PDF, without any license needed from Adobe.
Corel Ventura Publisher is Framemaker's only competition, and it beats it handily (much, much better UI, and some important additional functionality).
So send mail to Corel indicating that you're interested in seeing Ventura (a) developed and (b) ported to Linux.
--
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Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
I started working with TeX around 13 years ago on a VMS system at a university I was attending. I did my resume in raw TeX back then. When I got my first real PC, I was surprised to find that there was a DOS port of TeX and pleased to find that it would deal with my resume with no changes to the document. When I moved to Linux, TeX was there and again would deal with my documents with no changes to them.
The output is sharp and consistent and invariably more beautiful than I was ever able to achieve on a WYSWYG word processor. Oh and I've never had to modify TeX at all to achieve my results.
LaTeX adds a whole new dimension to that. With pdflatex, I can generate PDF files. Embedding graphics and links in the PDF file is quite simple. People have said that the fonts LaTeX uses suck in PDF files but I have never thought so, and if you print the PDF file out, you get the same crisp output you'd get doing it through tex.
Translating from LaTeX to HTML, RTF or raw text is a bit of a pain. The RTF and raw text translators work marginally well but the document usually needs to be edited afterwards. The HTML translation works pretty well if you don't mind having 20 or so HTML files generated from a relatively small document.
The only possible substitute I could see for LaTeX in the near future would be XML, since the markup language is supposedly easily translated into HTML, RTF and LaTeX (And I'd still be using LaTeX for all my printing.)
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I believe that LyX's components (LaTeX and the various styles) are inherently structured so as to preclude any sort of devolution to Word-like quagmire. Moreover, since stylistic changes require modification of a LaTeX style, people will have to go to an effort which will force a certain amount of consideration as to the appropriateness of their changes. No formatting ribbon or font panel---this is much like the old NeXT program Pages by Pages. This was done in, by the way, by the company's failure to deliver an interactive/visual style design program.
Omega, and PDFTeX address some of the difficulties of TeX, and there's a LaTeX successor too (but I use plain TeX, or rather am learning it).
TeX's superiority in concept can be readily seen in Adobe's use of its H&J (Hyphenation and Justification) algorithm by way of URW's HZ algorithm---that just adds one trick, on-the-fly width adjustment of characters.
William
--
Lettering Art in Modern Use
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Well, if they had 3 programmers working for 6 months on a Linux version, and they make $100k apiece, that would be at least $150k the company had invested. Of course, this doesn't show the loss that is taken by them not getting a more profitable application to market sooner by moving those programmers to other projects, or the overhead involved in employment (benefits, taxes, etc).
Of course, not being a professional programmer, I can't speak to how much time it would take to port something that already works on Solaris/AIX to Linux, or even how much programmers make at Adobe.
But, the point of a business is not just to break even, but make as much of a healthy profit as possible. Who knows how many people beta tested? Who knows what market surveys were taken that indicated a very low number of potential buyers? Business decisions like this are made every day, and the safe decision is to *not* support a new, non-mainstream platform.
Here, we use FM+SGML 5.5 on HP-UX, which can export Word 6/7. Don't know how well that would be received by Word <newer>, since I've never had occasion to try.
Read the epslatex.[ps,pdf] document carefully, All Will Be Explained
Then if you use \begin{figure}[!htbp] it will actually do it! (place the figure here, top of the next page, or bottom or float it to the end of the section.
If you're not sure about the packages you need, check my header:
If you're wondering about some of the other packages, psfrag is absolutly incredible! it allows you to change text in ps figures. if you have the text AAA in the figure, you can useto replace AAA in your eps file by some dynamic information generated by LaTeX... isn't that just absolutly unbelievably cool?
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"Hasta la victoria siempre!" El Comandante
A WYSIWYG typesetting program, as long as the programmers and users understand that you place frames on a page as opposed to inserting things into a text stream, will do a world of wonders for Linux.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
I read somewhere that the display engine in MacOSX is not X, but a PDF based GUI.
No sig for the moment.
I think (La)TeX and/or (K)LyX can do quite a nice job, as can KWord or AbiWord. But what we need desperately is
GNU/Linux is just not ready for this. But I hope (and believe) we will get there...
StarOffice seems to fit all your requests, and unlike frame, it's free.
Try throwing around a 10Mb image in GIMP under Linux. Try running and previewing effects on said 10Mb image. Do the same with Photoshop and you'll see the difference. Photoshops memory management and plugin interface is simply far more efficient for larger images. Hopefully GEGL will help. What is worth a look at is how Macromedia Xres handled large images, as I recall it handled 20-100Mb documents with ease when those same images would trouble even Photoshop.
John
John_Chalisque
Try pdflatex. Works great for me.
1) it's kind of difficult to write
PDF also make extensive use of LZW which we all know is a Bad Thing thanks to Unisys.
Well, here's one for the Linux zealots: how do you propose that the employees of (who create the tools that I need to make my living) make their living if Microsoft just starts giving away their source code?
Yes, think about it.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
"Most if not all computers startups, fast growing companies [...] are using linux."
No, they most certainly aren't. Most are not using Linux, forget the "if not all part." Are you familiar the startup market? Have you ever visited some dot-coms? Some are using Linux as inexpensive servers, but even the overwhelming majority of those shops still use Windows and Macs on all their desktops.
BTW, where all these sites using .ppt files to publish technical info? Finally, you don't need FrameMaker to publish PDFs. I don't mean to pick on you, but whether this is political or not (and I've seen zero evidence that it is), your entire premise that you're basing that opinion on is wrong. Very wrong. And, well, since someone decided to mod it up, the truth had to be known.
Cheers,
Good decision. It reminds me of my wife. She is a computer analfabetic (knows really nothing about them) pharmacist. When she had to write her thesis I gave her a Unix account (on my FBSD box) with emacs as Tex-sensitive editor, and Latex.
I learned her about 15 Latex commands (you don't need more) and did the header/footer and some generic definitions for her. It went perfectly fine and she wrote a well structured and very good looking thesis.
Later she had to use Word sometimes and cursed it, longing for the time she could use Latex.
Somehow people always think that WYSIWYG is easier, at least for non-computer-nerds. From my (actually my wives) experience, this is not true.
It is only so that today, many people only know WYSIWYG, and falsely assume that anything else is hard and scary. Which is a stupid prejudice.
Yeah but...
GIMP is more of an engine. I know people who've "drawn" designs without even running up X, they simply gave GIMP instructions on what to do.
Photoshop is far closer to the older "painting/drawing/compositing by hand" paradigm, but with inhuman precision and accuracy.
Both are better at what they do best than the other is.
FatPhil
(I do use both, but I'm crap at design, so everything I produce is crap! now what we need is intelligent packages with a sense of style and flair...)
Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
Appendix C.9.1 in Leslie Lamport's LaTeX - A Document Preparation System has very nice explanation of this problem and possible solutions.
... I guess TeX is kind of arcane programming language, but it works great for me. With a powerful editor like vim, it is easier to use, faster, and produces better results than any WYSIWIG wordprocessor I have ever used.
My wifes dissertation had about 300 pages, and about 150 or so images, initially we had a little problem with image placement, but after reading the above mentioned appendix, it was very easy to make everything come out exactly right.
I love TeX! Every time I had to use some wordprocessor, I wish I could use TeX instead. I admit it took me years to really learn - I started in college with plain TeX, switched to LaTeX in grad school, now I use LaTeX all the time at work.
I also agree that it would be nice to have things like named variables instead of \count0
AccountKiller
> I do think that LaTeX doesn't remove the need for products like Word though, can you imagine
teaching LaTeX to your mother?
No I don't imagine. But I wouldn't teach her Word either but something, much, much simpler; perhaps Wordpad or LyX (in lack of knowledge of better alternatives), depending on what she'd want to do with it. At least I find modern office packages very difficult to use. They have too much features visible to the user and everything important hidden. And Word at least is damn buggy, I get frustrated always when I have to use it because it doesn't do what I want and can even corrupt my files.
But anyone who seriously wants to create high print-quality documents, especially ones containing mathematical formulas, should take the time to learn something better, like LaTeX. Or perhaps docbook if there's not going to be maths (MathML is not to be written directly). At least I prefer TeX syntax over SGML/XML, though (too much writing with all the end tags and all).
I took Charles up on his challenge. Here's why: For us TWs, there aren't freeware tools out there that emulate what we're expected to use on the job. And one problem newbie/wannabee TWs have is getting the apps to establish some experience. FrameMaker, for one, is close to $800 a pop. For various reasons (expedience, venality, short-sightedness; take your pick) we're expected to know particular toolsets in addition to our general capabilities. It's like when programmers out there are told "We need a capable C++ programmer, sure, but we're using the Visual Age IDE, so you need to be experienced in that." So Ms. Newbie TW needs to hit the ground running with FrameMaker. Swell. If she can say "I use the clone all the time to write documentation as a volunteer for an Open Source project," a savvy HR or pubs manager will realize she'll be able to port that skillset easily and quickly.
"How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
Hey! We're the other site in the world that actually uses FrameMaker. All of our management and beancounting types just use Word, but everyone here that got accustomed to Frame on Suns found that Word sucked by comparison. We do heavy technical report writing, a niche market that Word does not address as well as Frame.
My biggest pet peeve with Word has been the default keyboard mappings - my fingers have been hardwired to use various emacs-like motion commands for ctrl-a, ctrl-f, etc. AFAIK, you cannot remap the key functions for Word to be something you like (while the converse is true - a Word user could get Emacs keys rebound to be more word-like if they wished).
The big problem has been that the chasm between Linux and old Sun hardware (where we run Frame now) is too great. We may be migrating to Linux soon, but it looks as if we'll just use StarOffice for WYSIWYG document processing, or run VMWare with Word, while die-hards techies like me will cling to TeX and variants for the ultimate beauty of mathematics typesetting, bravely withstanding the ferocious cold blasts of programming and debugging that are required to get what you want from TeX.
I keep looking to see if DocBook has progressed to the point where one can do reasonable jobs on mathematics typesetting for hardcopy and include various graphics formats. Likewise I keep holding out for an solid universal format like XML for my documents. My wishlist concurs with yours - perhaps someone with a need and a brain can get OpenOffice to address technical typesetting issues better and help out on XML export of the files.
My TeX files from 10+ years ago are still of value, while binary proprietary word processing formats from 10 years ago are about as useful as an election run by Floridians.
Too bad Adobe has dropped Frame for Linux from our perspective. We would have been a site that actually would have paid money for Frame on Linux, though I know that they need enough of a customer base to justify the effort. Still, we're talking about a couple hundred seats at several hundred US$ per seat, although the floating license might trim that down somewhat. It's lost revenue that Adobe won't see because of this decision. Beats me why they bought Frame in the first place.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Try throwing around a 300MB drum scan in GIMP, then try to output it to a profiled color printer, and THEN one will really appreciate Photoshop. GIMP just plain doesn't cut it for serious (non-webmonkey) work at this time. It may in the future, but Photoshop has a huge head start. (Too lazy to log in, I guess that makes me a Coward)
I never said it did. I was actually refering to MacOS 9 and earlier.
isn't that just absolutly unbelievably cool?
*drool* *slobber*
Where were you when I needed you yesterday!?!
Still, mucho obligado for the info.
First off, FrameMaker is an excellent product - I've never seen anything that really compares to it. I've written a 700+ pp. textbook with it, and am in the process of writing a 250+ pp. business plan with it. I've used it for years and years. It's not a word processor, though it can be used as one. Here's some of the things that are unique:
That being said, who buys FrameMaker? It is almost never the individual user - O'Reilly authors being a possible exception (they have Frame templates for their Nutshell books that authors can download). It is largely IT managers at large technology corporations - Frame is suited for manuals and such, and its licensing server is designed for large installations (e.g., it supports x many licenses, and only lets x instances run at any one time, no matter how many desktops you have). These people are generally conservative about changing things. If they've got Solaris installed, they won't change unless they have to. These people are not going to Linux yet, unless the company itself is one of the Linux vendors.
So, Adobe sees that IT managers aren't going in droves to their beta program, just these crazy penguins from /., and concludes that the time is not right.
Bleah :-(
-----
Klactovedestene!
The emacs TeX mode is quite handy too. Emacs integrates quite well with ispell, and you can do spelling checking at the end of each chapter. Ideally you break your document down to chapters and then just include the chapters in your main document. That way, if you need to move a chapter, it's as easy as moving an include and rerunning LaTeX, which automatically rebuilds your table of contents (If you need an index built too, that would take another run.) Anyone who's ever had to renumber a document by hand will appreciate LaTeX's indexing and table of contents generation.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Generating layouts yourself is a nightmare. I tried it for my thesis, but had to give-up. So I just took csthesis and hacked it a bit. This is a more serious complaint about LaTeX but it's supposed to get fixed in version 3.
The good thing is, there are loads of layouts, styles whatever on the net, just grab the one you like most, and \include your chapters in :-)
If you are into scientific writing, any of the major publishers, IEEE, elsevier... have a LaTeX file somewhere so you don't bother with the layout of your articles. Would be a lot nicer if it weren't so hard to do custom ones yourself... ('coz you need to know TeX as well as LaTeX)
---
"Hasta la victoria siempre!" El Comandante
What you fail to understand that some people would pay to use FrameMaker in Linux. Your thinking that every Linux user want free software? Free is nice yeah but it's nice to have the support sometimes. I pay for Loki games and I pay for Box versions of Linux due to the fact that them are the only things I need. It's harder to get a burn copy of Quake 3 for Linux then it is for Windows. =) Some people keep there Windows boot because they have to use something that was in Windows that companies don't want to port over to Linux. How do I know this? Because I'm one of them myself. Why is there an Win4Lin? Why is there an VMware? You figure it out, then post when you got the anwser.
Would I run M$ Office if it was out for Linux? Well if I ran an business that is working with other companies we will need to have something like that for Linux. I hate booting into Windows, but I don't want to use WINE when I'm trying to do something for my company at home. If the programs I need was in Linux I wouldn't be booting into Windows and the samething goes for most of the people that I know.
You know what? People like you make me sick. I would pay money to get the apps I need for Linux so I don't have to boot into Windows. So feel free to flame! I could care less... I'm just speaking my mind that's all.
From Zero to Hero... Starbuck Zero
I use FrameMaker for a book I am writing about Linux and it is a decent program, even in Beta.
What I can't understand is given the code base, it must be a snap too support both the Linux and the Solaris versions/Unix versions.
It cannot be all that different.
If Adobe's software engineering of the program is worth any salt at all, it can't be a problem to support it.
I mean, you cannot tell me that there are more HP UNIX users out there using the program, or COULD be using the program rather than Linux users.
The program, which I use it for is writing books and typsetting my documentation for my Linux cluster in my basement.
What I want to know is, why Adobe didn't approach a distribution such as Debian or RedHat and say, "Hey how about you guys bundle FrameMaker "Lite" with your distribution?
Instead they just waited for people to download it off thier site, waited a year, and basically didn't approach the open source community in any practical business manner.
I have no intention of buying a another desktop machine so I can just run FrameMaker, so I offerred to buy the beta for the cost of the Unix license.
The program works well, and has surprisingly few bugs (i.e. no show stoppers that I can't work around.) for at least the kinds of layout work I do.
I mean, as a niche market, there are even fewer mathematicains such as myself, and Wolfram supports linux with its Mathematica product?
????
I can't imagine why Adobe would do this considering building a commercial publishing system would be so much easier/superior and cost effective with Linux servers than any other OS?
Scaling such a system would be far easier than any other OS platform they list as supported and you could definately pump out a book far faster using clusters to do your publishing.
Given the complexities of thier products, I don't accept the idea that the user base can't operate the product from a Gnome desktop.
Something smells fishy.
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
i work as a technical writer writing software manuals for more than five years. we regularly produce 2000+ page documents, and in my experience there isn't any other application that even comes *close* to the power of frameMaker for long-document processing.
its structured document approach, its base inclusion of paagraph and character styles *from the ground up*, and its ability to embed markers and tags in the document, its excellent search/replace functionality, book handling, cross-platform support (the loss of linux is bad!) and excellent postscript support make framemaker indispensible. it is easy to do things in framemaker that would take more than quadruple the time in microsoft word.
framemaker is the the technical writer's friend.
regards,
john penner.
( http://www.sidefx.com )
The good news about Word 2000 is that it is much more stable with large documents and embedded images than previous releases.
The bad news is that they've broken quite a bit of the functionality, I think in the name of making it easier for newbies.
Specifically, the automatic bullets/numbering system used to be a nice way to make outline-like docs with the indent/outdent commands. Now, the indenting/outdenting automatically jumps around and is just plain broken, and Word can no longer pick the right bullet/number scheme based on the indent level anyway.
I've been using Word for 11 years now, and with a recent 40 page document, I spent more time fighting with the program than I had since version 3 on my Mac SE. It's really sad how they turned a what used to be a fairly solid program into such a bloated piece of defective shit. (I'd be fine with Word95, but you know, file formats..)
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Otoh, I find GIMP Win32 to be faster, and Paint Shop Pro to be the best of the three. I even like Corel Photopaint better. What am I missing that the Photoshop lovers see?
I would just guess that you're not using it 8 hours a day in a professional deadline environment. I don't mean that in any derogatory way -- I doubt you could tell the difference between a sable hair brush and an ox hair brush by painting with it, but paying ten times as much for the sable hair is not a waste for a professional painter, because he CAN tell the difference (and use it).
The guy in the next office from me is a database programmer and uses PSP because he can't figure out Photoshop and never does anything but RGB web graphics and powerpoint images with it. I, on the other hand, send out stuff to printers and make huge montages and do fairly involved image editing work on 300+ meg files, so I use Photoshop.
If you don't work with SWOP, if you aren't concerned with ink density or screen angles,if you aren't created complex selection masks, then you probably don't need (or even want) Photoshop.
---------------------------------------------
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
And besides, the Arial, TNR, etc. fonts are all "freely redistributable", according to MS, and so you can take them from a Windows box and put them on your Linux box just fine.
FrameMaker is a desktop publishing program with a lot of features that support technical manual production. Notice that I said "desktop publishing" and not "word processing." The difference between these two jargonettes is an emphasize on layout and design, versus document composition and structure. This boils down to "production" versus "writing". I have some interest in document production, but to me it's always secondary to content. This is especially true with the current shift to electronic documents -- a web page or a help topic just doesn't have the same design constraints as a printed page.
Unfortunately, writing tool designers tend to drift towards the DP paradigm. All the commercial WPs are sold mainly for their DP features. Everybody, designer and users, seems stuck in a very old rut. There's an emphasis on big, clumsy programs that try to do everything (a hangover from the early days of electronic publishing when WPs and DPs were dedicated special-purpose systems, not apps running on general-purpose computers). There's an emphasis on specific physical layout (PDF files that are simply printed page images and HTML pages that consist of single fixed-width tables), making edocuments that are very hard to browse, especially on small displays. FrameMaker has done well because it supports this obsolete, but popular, paradigm. And it does so with a clumsy, semi-EMACS UI, which my brain is just not wired to deal with. FrameMaker does not help me with document organization, brainstorming, hyperlinking, or any of the other things I do every day.
Of course, FrameMaker+SGML, like any basic SGML editing tool, does a good job of enforcing document structure. But enforcing structure and creating structure are very different things.
I'm still waiting for a writing tool that emphasises content over production. I'm unoptimistic, having seen a lot of lost opportunities. In the 80s, there was a spate of "thought processors" that looked very promising, but never caught on commercially. (They survive as clumsy outlining tools, usually built into WPs.) SGML has mostly been destroyed by its own power and generality -- few people are cut out to design a DTD. HTML showed great promise, but was destroyed by the commercial need to produce pretty web pages, and browser designers who didn't care about the markup/presentation dichotomy. XML still shows great promise, but so far seems to be used mainly as a universal data interface.
So no FrameMaker for Linux? Good. This will leave an opening for tools that actually attempt to address my problems, such as LyX. A tool I mean to spend time with, once I catch up with my current project. Which is (sigh) a massive API document, written in RTF using Word97, to be distributed via a Linux-based WinHelp clone.
__________________
\eqnarray can usually be replaced with a better environment like \align or \alignat, or \gather, \split, \multline, etc. I've not found a time when one of these other environments didn't do what I wanted. They also have better spacing.
m ath.tex' and read the section on ``Examples of multiple-line equation structures''. Where I have seen people use it, they either tend to misuse it, or they make another big mistake.
{ )} }
}
IMHO, it's a low-level environment that can be replaced with high-level environment describing semantically what's going on. (See 'The LaTeX Companion'), or '/usr/share/texmf/source/latex/amslatex/math/test
Another mistake I tend to see is people not making commands and environments to suit the semantic structure of their document.. Here are extracts of a couple of prologs of different documents I've done.
I almost never inline a symbol directly into my documents unless it has a common semantic meaning ('+', '*'). I create a command to represent it's semantic meaning and use that (ex: '\StepsTo')
This way, I can reformat things like how I display lambda's (ex: '\Lam'. At one time, I used a subscript and superscript, now they're both subscripts), switch a symbol to another type of symbol, change the spacing around a symbol, etc.
If you want to see what it looks like in a complete document, bounce me an email.
% Math logic (for representing object variables
\newcommand{\A}{\mathbf{A}}
\newcommand{\B}{\mathbf{B}}
\newcommand{\C}{\mathbf{C}}
\newcommand{\D}{\mathbf{D}}
\newcommand{\E}{\mathbf{E}}
% ELF formulation of a programming language:
\newcommand{\Gvdash}{\Gamma\vdash}
\newcommand{\StepsTo}{\mathrel{\mapsto}}
\newcommand{\EvalsTo}{\mathrel{\Downarrow}}
\newcommand{\cdparens}[1]{\mathcd{(}{#1}\mathcd
\newcommand{\cdbra}[1]{\mathcd{[}{#1}\mathcd{]}
\newcommand{\Lam}[3]{\,\lambda_{#1,#2} \,#3\,}
\newcommand{\RLam}[3]{\,\Lambda_{#1,#2} \,#3\,}
\newcommand{\True}{\,\mathcd{True}\,}
\newcommand{\False}{\,\mathcd{False}\,}
This is all IMHO, but the few people who's latex I've seen tend to create really bad code.
Yes, this is a grammar post, so feel free to moderate me down. I simply couldn't let the opportunity pass to commend alumshubby on his correct avoidance of a split infinitive, when such an error could so easily have been made.
In a day when "loose" is inexplicably the present tense of "lost," it's worth a (Score:-1, Offtopic) to point out a good example of diligent adherence to correct English.
Nerd Rock In Progress
Just a note: Aladdin GhostScript is free (as in beer and partially as in speech) for commercial use. The limitation is that only Aladdin can charge money for distributing modifications to the source. Read it here.
After a certain amount of time, source is relicensed under GPL (and here we have GNU GhostScript), so Aladdin basically sells the fact it stays ahead in development, while also pleasing RMS (who, you'll agree with me, is not so easy to please).
Abisource developers could agree to do something similar in the future, and perhaps earn some money (provided people out there are willing to pay for creepy featurism).
About Framemaker: I use it for large technical documents (600+ pages on HP-UX) and I really like it. But for the use I make of FrameMaker, I could as well use LyX without any problem. Frames in FrameMaker are a nice plus over LyX, but you'll agree with me that you can't do serious DTP with them anyway, and they are mostly used exactly as LyX floats...
It's good news that Adobe isn't releasing FrameMaker for Linux. It means that open-source developers can have the Linux market to themselves.
--
Find free books.
I think I agree with you about pdf, but no one has really stepped up with a satisfactory alternative. But nevermind that. Until someone does, you can get your Microsoft fonts here for free: Microsoft
via XSLT.
I've been looking for 13 years now and have yet to find anything that produces the fine output you get from LaTeX. Having used pretty much every word processor I could get my hands on (Word in various incarnations starting with 2.0, Word Perfect, Frame Maker, Star Office, Abiword) I always come back to LaTeX.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
The thing is, the beta worked really well. They could charge $100 for an extended license and they'd sell at least a few at virtually zero cost.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
> They are making a BSD version
The problem of Adobe with a Mac OS X version would not be about the unix flavor but about the GUI. What to use ? Cocoa ? Carbon ? Don't think that a X11 version on Mac OS X would be viable.
Note that there was a NeXTstep version of Framemaker. Mmmm. Maybe they still have the technical expertise in house for ObjC/AppKit... A Cocoa version of framemaker would just rocks.
Cheers,
--fred
1 reply beneath your current threshold.
---
"Hasta la victoria siempre!" El Comandante
I expect any significant writing I do to be in a structured markup language like XML. Most of our departmental documentats are in DocBook. They've been revised several times; they've been run through several revisions of stylesheets; they have not been revised for the sake of style.
TeX's typesetting is great, but the markup language is mostly presentational. LaTeX is okay, but I expect (SG|X)ML + (CSS|XSL|DSSL) to be a better solution. I want a TeX-like back end to CSS and/or XSL (FO).
It's sad that all this time after the introduction of TeX, Adobe InDesign can advertise paragraph-level justification as a new feature. (Although I am intrigued by the supposed use of the hz program.)
FrameMaker does not make use of DS.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
He has one. You don't.
Actually, I think this argues that publishing is not heading toward commodity status; the "problem" may well be that Linux isn't making significant inroads into the publishing industry. A perceived lack of demand for a commercial DTP solution on Linux does not equate to a perceived lack of demand for commercial DTP solutions. Your perception of "bleeding edge" is likely quite different from that of a professional prepress operator, or a manager in HP's documentation division.
Say you have a 500-page manual to get out, that has to draw in chapters written by two dozen different contributors. 19 are in Word format, 4 are in WordPerfect format, and the one from the crusty weird engineer who rants about mainframes all the time is in XyWrite III+ format. Most of the chapters have graphics, generally in TIFF or EPS format. Obviously, the entire book has to be in a consistent style. And, of course, you need to have a table of contents, a list of illustrations, an index, and cross-references.
So which solution is cheaper--LaTeX, or FrameMaker? In terms of time spent doing the work, FrameMaker will win hands down. It'll convert all the document formats (even XyWrite) automatically and won't require you to pepper the document with TeXisms ("---" instead of "--", changing straight quotes to open/close, commands for formatting, etc.)--even if you come up with a script to help automate that process, it'll be much slower. Even an expert TeXnician will have trouble creating a set of style macros as quickly as style sheets could be built. And we haven't even gotten to the speed differences in index markup and image handling. These speed differences could mean weeks off the schedule--and that pays for FrameMaker every time you use it on a project like this.
And that--speed saved in work time--is really what commands premium pricing, I think. ESR's observation makes sense, but it can lead people to the wrong conclusions. Linux is a commodity solution because it's free--it's not free because it's a commodity. Distribution packagers can make money, ironically, for the same reason that FrameMaker can be sold even with free alternatives: people are paying them to cut down on the time and effort it would take to install a full Linux-based OS if you had to do everything yourself.
Sorry to tell Adobe this, but MORE people use Linux than Mac. About %2 more. They just want to loose money.
The willingness of humanity to follow without question is the fall of them.
This will save me a bunch of bother. I was seriously thinking about setting the date back on my laptop (and using it over the net from the nicer monitor on my workstation - I'd prefer not to muck with the system date on the workstation as that impacts too many other things).
I don't even like Frame, but it was selected for a project I'm responsible for (I'm editor for the Fortran standard). I preferred something non-proprietary like LaTeX, but I lost that vote quite a few years ago. Far too much pain to change now. I was using Frame on Solaris. When I moved to Linux, Frame was the only application that I needed and couldn't get on Linux. Decided I'd move anyway and run that one application remotely from one of the Solaris boxen. I was thrilled when the Linux beta of Frame came out.
I could go back to remote on the Solaris box, but I'd rather minimize dependence on it. And the laptop thing would have been awkward also.
Thanks.
P.S. Sombody ought to mod the parent of this up as informative.
You're wrong about that. Software houses in the Unix market tend to more and more use Linux PCs instead of e.g. Sun workstations for their employees. These people write proposals, architectural- and detailed design documents, test procedures etc., all in all tons of documents. In this business only Framemaker cuts it (try compiling a 3000-page doc. with input from your case tool etc. with MS Word on a Friday afternoon!). So as these people are moving over from Sun etc. to Linux they want Framemaker for Linux more and more.
Yes, I'm among them.
TA
Search Freshmeat for Panda. Think of it as "libpdf". Allows you to create PDF documents programmatically from c,c++,vb and (soon) perl and python.
StarOffice is still a Word Processor, but when I first learned to use it I discovered that it creates documents with much more structure than Word does. If you are careful, you can make documents almost as structured as LaTeX documents are.
The three big problems are 1) You cannot actually view the raw codes, 2) It is not possible to use external tools on the documents, and 3) The print output sucks compared to LaTeX.
The first two are fixed by using XML in OpenOffice 6. The third will be fixed when someone does a better renderer. Note that since the document format is XML, you can potentially use any XML renderer on the documents.
Now if only they got printing working on Unix in the beta...
Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
Sorry to hear this...
What about any suitable replacements or releasing of the source?
-1 Overrated (Too many big words for me to comprehend)
How about Abiword? It's cross platform, can write and read a number of formats, and is getting better all the time. The new release can print to pdf in gnome, and can export to tex as well. It's quite stable, the only drawback being that it can't do tables yet.
Alterations to FM556_linux/bin/linuxm.glibc2.i386/maker5X.exe
In khexedit:
002C:04E9 ---> 002C:04ED substitute E8820B0000 with 9090909090
000A:CCEA ---> 000A:CCEE substitute E8513B2100 with E90E000000
Alterations to ~/fminit/licenses
use fmaddlicense with the following command:
add 20-0-44-01-5-01234-13F0D9 (username)
We need a good cross platform technical text editor/type setter solution now. I was excited when Adobe announced that they are porting Frame to Linux, my preferred operating system. I work for a small company, where most of the documentation is written with Microsoft Word. Everyone hates that product, and we convert everything to pdf to make sure that we can use the files in year 2005 if needed (we can at least print the documents, and "cut and paste" into the current word processor of choice). I was looking forward to switch to frame maker, but now I am on my own again ...
This is my wish list:
RFC1925
I have limited experience in both technical writing and software design, but I am presently neck deep in both. I would love to see an Open Source FM clone, every other kid on the block uses it.
Since I haven't used FM, I wouldn't be much help in spec'ing the interface, but I'd love to be part of the usability/testing group.
The static time version doesn't work (Maker probably really needs the clock to keep ticking), but setting the clock back 1-hour worked. Then I tried 1 day (86400 seconds), and Maker then claims that "No licenses are currently installed. Run in demo mode?"
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
"That fat, dumb, and bald guy sure plays a mean hardball."
And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners.
Berke Breathed
Not nearly as quickly as IT pro's... Most stuff IT-wise is completely learned. You read a book, you know it, you apply it. Most stuff in DTP relies much more on the designers sense of style than anything else... Things that can't be commoditized. Yes, it's getting easier for anyone to throw together themselves a flyer to bring to kinko's and photocopy, but if you're aspiring for any sort of printed material, you'd best be hiring out your work, or else paying immense extra charges for sending your files to the service bureau in unsupported file formats, using true type fonts and RGB images.
I don't like this kind of BS in which they remotely disable a piece of software that you've
downloaded.
It apparently simply checks the date, and refuses to run after that time. Couldn't some enterprising soul simply create a program/library/whatever that reports the date as being earlier than it is whenever Framemaker starts up? (Not that I would suggest doing such a thing, of course. That Would Be Wrong.)
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
It works a lot better if you up the "Tile Cache Size" in preferences (if you have 128M, make it 50-60M or so. 25-30M images are then no prob). You can also add/reduce swapfile usage, although swapping is fairly sluggish unless you're running RAID0 or the like.
Still, CMYK and Pantone would be nice. The latter we may never see (Licensing=$$$). I do believe the former's on the cards. Fingers crossed.
-- Sig Sig Sputnik
Just a thought...
--
Never hit your grandmother with a shovel, for it leaves a bad impression on her mind...
If they couldnt do it themselves, they should atleast make the beta source public
This way they'll have 2 advantages...
1.They get more popular.
2.Some people can open up some sourceforge thing to finish it, atleast partially, if not wholly.
I think Programming is a community challenge, if you cant do it, pass it on...
Try hopping by iotaspace
Then when you have this ready, everytime you want to spell check, you press ^T in vim and there you go, instant aspell mode...
PS: It's not that I dislike emacs, (the viper mode is actually quite nice ;) but I've been using vi since my first account on a silicon graphics... wouldn't use anything else now :-)
---
"Hasta la victoria siempre!" El Comandante
I already replied to you on LinuxToday, so this repost is for the benefit of the Slashdot readers.
/* 1 hour */
This quick hack should probably work. Paste this into a file called pre.c:
--- CUT HERE ---
#define SECONDS 975421904
struct timeval {
long tv_sec;
long tv_usec;
};
int gettimeofday(struct timeval *tv, void *tz)
{
tv->tv_sec = SECONDS;
tv->tv_usec = 0;
return 0;
}
long time(long *t)
{
if(t) *t = SECONDS;
return SECONDS;
}
--- CUT HERE ---
Build it with:
gcc -c pre.c
ld -shared -o pre.so pre.o
Run it with:
LD_PRELOAD=./pre.so name_of_program_to_run
Here's an alternate version which subtracts a certain number of seconds from the real time (some programs won't work if the time never changes):
--- CUT HERE ---
#define SECONDS_TO_SUBTRACT 3600
struct timeval {
long tv_sec;
long tv_usec;
};
extern int __gettimeofday(struct timeval *tv, void *tz);
int gettimeofday(struct timeval *tv, void *tz)
{
int ret = __gettimeofday(tv, tz);
if(!ret) tv->tv_sec -=SECONDS_TO_SUBTRACT;
return ret;
}
long time(long *t)
{
struct timeval tv;
gettimeofday(&tv, 0);
if(t) *t = tv.tv_sec;
return tv.tv_sec;
}
--- CUT HERE ---
BTW, I'm Alex Holden (alex@linuxhacker.org).
If pdf is such an standard, why can you only produce quality pdf's using Mac or Windows?
hint: It has to do with something called "closed standards"
Instead of trying to get adobe to sell us expensive software, we should try to get them to open the pdf specs, so that it becomes a true standard.
In fact, pdf as used by MacOSX sounds very very interesting...
No sig for the moment.
I wish Adobe had given a REASON for discontinuing the beta test and subsequent release of Framemaker for Linux, but I'd rather have NO program than one that's buggy and/or unstable.
That's 1/2 the problem with MS oper. systems and apps that run on it.
I'm not trying to create flames here... just calling it how I see it.
[Connection closed by foreign host]
- Multiple users could work on the same document concurrently without fear of corruption.
- The API is wide open and well defined. The existing db monitor provides an excellent tool for inspecting document structure and debugging.
Of course, we'd needPlease don't reinvent too many wheels. Desktop programmers seem to love spending time making inferior embedded databases that will never measure up to a real RDBMS for speed or clarity. I hate it when this PeeCee mentality creeps into Unix. So here's how I'd decompose it - sounds complex but it's meant to minimize the pain:
word format isn't that bad; whenever somebody emails me a word file, I just go throw the thing through strings and I'm looking at good 'ol plain text. However, it is nice to get a formatted printout of something worth printing. I prefer postscript for this though (it's just an lp foo.ps away from paper).
Sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.
The problem is that few people, in the linux world or anywhere else, understand what Frame is and why it's important. It's a powerful tool for creating structured documents, but it's confused with word processors, dtp programs, etc. Frame is enough of a paradigm shift that I wish Linux users could have it for a few years to learn the concepts - which I think would sit quite well with Unix hackers. Open Source is good at chasing tail-lights, but we only chase tail-lights we know about.
Unfortunately, everyone knows about Windows/MS Office, so we'll see 10^6 clones of this crappy software. If Frame were as widely visible, we'd have seen some good clones of it already.
I wish I had downloaded the Beta.
Disclaimer: I know almost nothing about Frame.
Basically Quartz is the 2d imaging model used in OS X and is based off of the PDF. ANY application has the option to save documents out as a PDF.
Quartz is also not a GUI. The Aqua User Interface calls on Quartz to draw the GUI on screen. Any application that is Caronized or written in Cocoa can tap into the Quartz graphics engine.
Basically, Quartz is Display Postscript on steroids.
Pooty tweet
What does a strace say? Perhaps every time you start it, it stores the current date/time in a file somewhere so that it can tell if you set the clock back, or maybe it uses some other method of finding the time as well and compares the two...
but unfortunately everyone's favorite overclockable motherboard manufacturer and companies like that will continue to release documentation in PDF format (even though the PDFs contain slightly skewed and grainy scanned in images of the actual printed manual). For the few times you actually have to deal with it, it's not all that bad.
My big complaint with it is that they are defeating the purpose of the web and browsers. If I WNATED to download a file to display on a local viewer, I'd have used FTP. Since I am using a browser, I WANT to view the information as HTML w/ images if necessary. Why does Adobe instis on telling these people how perfect PDF is for the web? Just to add insult to injury, half the time, the PDF turns out to be nothing but a scan of the ad slick that could have been more easily and cheaply provided as a single image file.
Postscript, OTOH, was a good idea. With ghostscript, all applications can just print in postscript and let the Postscript VM worry about the printer.
Don't take that the wrong way. Adobe is not necessarily being hostile to Linux in general. It's just that when they decide not to do something, that's that until they decide to reopen the discussion.
We had the same problem at USL/Novell trying to get them to port FM to UnixWare. They decided it wasn't worth the effort, and we couldn't convince them otherwise.
Sure, some places will do special ports if you pay them enough, but every software house has to decide for themselves whether they're doing product development or contract programming.
"I also agree that it would be nice to have things like named variables instead of \count0 ... "
Plain TeX uses \pageno as an alias for \count0.
LaTeX if I remember right uses \thepage.
BTW, \pageno is buried in the back of the TeXBook, so I can understand you not knowing about it.
Fonts can be embedded in PDF --- if Adobe
themselves are distributing PDF files sans
fonts, it's the problem of the specific
file, not of the PDF standard.
The Multiple Master fonts idea means that
in many cases fonts don't _have_ to be
embedded --- I'm a little surprised that you
can't view these, but what you say is possible.
Do you have a better format?
"Never bullshit a bullshitter" All That Jazz
I currently use WP8 as my WordProcessor of choice. I have never used (nor will I probably ever use) Framemaker. I didn't even know that Adobe had a WP.
.02
I find it odd that they said that you will have to either use another version of FM to use your documents from the beta or convert them to text. I would think that a viable WP running on any non-Windows platform would have to be able to handle MS Word conversions in/out. WP8 doesn't handle this all that well but well enough that I can do what I need to w/it.
Just my worthless
Ummmm, no. Try again. Don't just grab random, out-of-context soundbytes and using them as the foundation of your opinion. The Mac community did that for most of the 90's and eventually people figured out it was the wrong approach.
Some organizations have been reporting equal or slightly higher marketshare for Linux that Mac OS. Marketshare is constantly in flux. Marketshare does not equal installed base, which is the number of people actually using machines. Apple has been building installed base for 16 years. Furthermore, I have yet to see a unanimous decision amongst various research companies that there is larger number of people using Linux as their primary desktop OS than Mac OS. And, personally, I don't expect this to be the case for while (though anything is possible). Sure, there are a lot of machines with Linux installed in them, but even if everybody in the world was running Linux on their webservers, that doesn't help Adobe one bit.
And outside of installed base, there are some other reasons why the Mac is a much more appropriate non-Windows platform for Adobe to invest:
Don't misunderstand my position. I use Macs for desktop work, but my servers run Linux (for now). I've been using Unix in various for six years. But claiming that more people are using Linux than Mac as a desktop OS is a bit presumptuous. Also note that numbers can vary vastly from research firm to research firm. You need to average the results of all of them to get an idea of what's really going on.
- Scott
------
Scott Stevenson
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
Is Framemaker a word processor or more of a desktop publishing package? The reson I ask is that I'm trying to wean myself off of Windows entirely and there are currenly only 2 apps that I have to have Windows for: Publisher & Quicken. GNUCash will be a Quicken replacement someday (already is for many people), but I still need a desktop publishing package. I publish a newsletter once a month (for samples, look here - pdf format) and a word processor doesn't quite get the job done. I was hoping that Framemaker would be that solution, but looks like that's not going to happen. I'd still be willing to use the beta if it's heavy-duty enough. Any thoughts?
Admit nothing, deny everything and make counter-accusations.
PDF is based off of Postscript. You can't make a decent PDF without somehow making a postscript of your document.
The big issue is for *nix developers to come out with some decent postscript drivers or ps compliant virtual printers. Then you need some way to "distill" the ps to a PDF. Very few applications currently have the ability to "save as" to PDF but can export to it or at least allow you to print to a ps file.
p.s. Also, stop using TrueType fonts and you just might find that the quality of type in PDF's improves greatly!
Pooty tweet
Get xfstt, use xfree 4.0. There are at least two ways that you can get usable true type font support on your system. I've been able to use true type fonts from windows under linux for over two years now. Anti-aliased they are not, but even aliased true-type fonts look a thousand times better than rasterized fonts.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Rather than saying "PDF is bad... Adobe is bad...", shouldn't we be saying "Why don't they like us?"
I've been a Mac user for a while and this is what Apple has been infamous for: saying "developer's don't like us... well who needs 'em!" The truth is, linux needs developers like Adobe desperately. (Ok, yes, it's a great OS with or without them, but to gain real, wide-spread acceptance it needs masive developer support.)
What this rejection of Linux should prompt us to ask is how we can motivate developers to support Linux and in doing so, make a better OS and get more developers!
"Let your heart soar as high as it will. Refuse to be average." - A. W. Tozer
My take on this is that Adobe's attitude toward Linux is becoming more callous all the time, so I recommend to anyone who will listen that they try to avoid using any Adobe product. I can't even count the number of online companies that have lost any chance to get my business because their online catalogs are amoung those PDF files that I can't view under Linux.
Repeat after me: PDF is bad.. Adobe is bad..
Adrian
Adobe has in the past been approached many times from Linux users regarding a Linux version of FrameMaker.
Adobes responses was on the limit of beeing hostile.
When everyone had given up on Adobe and found other alternatives for document processing, they suddenly launched this Linux beta version.
This is a perfect example of how not to do. All they have accomplished is a feeling that Adobe shouldn't be taken seriously.
//Pingo
--- Linux or FreeBSD, it's like blondes or brunettes. I like both. ---
The problem is that Display Postscript isn't installed by default on Linux. It's coming, in the form of Display Ghostscript (a DPS/NX agent -like using Mesa 3.1 for OpenGL) and the DPS/X branch in the XFree 4.0 tree (like using GLX for OpenGL). Until there's a Display Postscript workalike as standard on Linux, WYSIWYG DTP on Linux is far, far trickier than on the commercial Unixen which all have licensed DPS implementations.
:-)
The good news is - Display Postscript, and an OSX Quartz (Really a sortof Display PDF workalike) workalike, ARE coming to Linux, as part of the gnustep project. the bad news is that they're not finished yet (although the Adobe DPS texteriods demo works fine on my system
For those scared to learn latex but want a superior document processing system LyX does work and work well. I have used it for many articles and papers for work and school. And as an added incentive there is a mif to lyx filter if you happen to be one of those now stuck by Adobe's decision.
lyx website.
mif 2 lyx translator.
Virtually any Free program is capable of generated PDF. Just print to Postscript and use ps2pdf.
The problem of Adobe with a Mac OS X version would not be about the unix flavor but about the GUI. What to use ? Cocoa ? Carbon ? Don't think that a X11 version on Mac OS X would be viable.
Carbon and Cocoa aren't GUIs, they're API sets.
- Scott
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Scott Stevenson
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
The main problem with Lout is that while it is easy to customize section headings, Lout is rigid about where things like prefaces, tables of contents, or indices go. I can't choose in a Lout document whether the table of contents will be before or after the preface, or even whether to put the table of contents in the back (which is a common practice in some countries). The "report" document format in Lout will repeat the lines in the title page at the top of the first page of the report. I've found that I've ended up needing to use the "book" format for maximum flexibility.
IMHO, I find it kind of sad that rigidity in some aspects of Lout frustrates the usefulness of the customizability of other aspects. If Lout lost some of that rigidity and gained a way to do bold Greek fonts without teq (maybe via an overstriking command like eqn's "fat"?) it would be just the slightest bit superior than TeX/LaTeX, IMHO.
I'm Lee Richardson, the FrameMaker engineering mgr. Not continuing with FM on Linux was a straightforward business decision: 1) there were only a few 10s of 1000s of unique users, after a year. 2) only a fraction were willing to pay for a Linux version of FrameMaker, per the survey we did over the summer, and they were only willing to pay a fraction of the Mac/Win price 3) a notable group of those willing to buy the product were existing FrameMaker users who wanted to switch from the Win version to the (lower priced) Linux version 4) Linux is NOT 'just another Unix'. There would have been a notable investment in porting additional code, setting up QA machines for multiple Linux releases, getting Linux versions of our 3rd-party filters, handling font and printing differences... this list goes on. The fact that the list kept growing the more we learned was notable in itself. So- doing a lot of work and adding a lot of ongoing overhead for a relatively small number of users and additional revenue didn't make sense. It would have been cool if it had worked out. ...Lee
Back when Adobe made Solaris versions of thier programs, Desktop publishing shops, all wanting faster machines, didn't want to get Solaris boxes. Why? A lack of other tools they are used to. No powerGoo, etc la.
:) It was a fun little toy, but that's about it.
Hehe. Sorry. POWERGOO? As a tool people are used to?
If Apple is able to keep its user base on the move to BSD unix, eventually code will slide sideways to X86 based BSD, then X86 based *linux. So, just un-bind your underware.
Porting applications to Mac OS X has nothing to do with porting them to BSD. Mac OS X applications are generally written in/ported to Carbon (updated Classic Mac OS APIs, heavily architecture dependent) or Cocoa (Objective-C/Java apps using OpenStep foundation classes). Few Mac developers will encounter BSD while building an application. Today, the BSD component is most useful for getting stuff like MySQL, Apache and PHP up and running quickly. The only exception to this that I am aware of is Fizzilla. Fizzilla is a Mac OS X native port of Mozilla that uses Carbon for the front end drawing routines, and BSD for the threading and networking.
- Scott
------
Scott Stevenson
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
Though I know better than to compare FrameMaker with a plain' ol word processor, I've never used it, so this question may seem stupid, but I'm wondering what the differences between FrameMaker and things like DocBook and LyX are...
Tweet, tweet.
When you start maker, a process called fm_flb starts and continues to run after you exit Maker. All I needed to do was 'killall fm_flb' and then you reset LD_PRELOAD and start Maker again (fm_flb will eventually shut down on its own after a few hours).
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
I can't believe Adobe is really not moving forward with Frame for Linux. I know several companies in the Cambridge area that are all mostly Linux desktop organizations now, most having migrated from various UNIXen, and were planning on migrating their technical writers over to Linux once Frame shipped proper. Idiots. These guys are NEVER going to use Word for their technical publications, and are now stuck either buying their tech writers Ultra 5's or Windows boxen.
It seems like Adobe has decided to only market their Windows product base while letting their UNIX tools languish. They don't realize that it's the UNIX and Macintosh tools which offer the long term revenue stream; unless they just want to get bought out by MS. Look at how they've killed Display Postscript... I don't think even Sun can buy and integrate DPS into OpenWindows any longer. And clearly Apple couldn't get DPS for Quartz, they had to move to their own internally written DPDF model. Thank God for GnuStep and their GPS X extension; talk about a critical X infrastructure project which gets NO attention.
Hey Adobe, how does it feel to piss off your customers? You bet these guys are going to migrate the hell away from Frame once a real competitor emerges on Linux. The next rev or two of Kword is looking like it could be a real Frame killer under Linux... Adobe, get you head out of your ass and start marketing your products where the customers are!
Jeesh.
--Maynard
They may well change their mind when Linux achieves world domination.
We already have several quite acceptable word processors available.
The fewer closed source word processors there are out there, the more people will feel inclined to help develop the open source word processors such as KWord, StarOffice and Abiword, which will then work on all Linux platforms and not just i386.
My only problem with Gimp is that it doesn't support 16-bit images (yet). Apart from that, it has all the features I need. AFAIK, it will in version 2, but this one's not coming anytime soon.
I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet -Stanislaw Lem
True--I should have been more clear. By "commercial use" I was thinking of redistribution, and more specifically of OEMs incorporating Ghostscript into their products, which does require a license.
I've played around with LyX and find it more awkward to use than frame-based DTP systems (I confess I've used PageMaker 6.5 much more than QuarkXpress, and Xpress more than FrameMaker); defining master page layouts, for instance, is nearly as easy in any of those DTP programs as it is in a reasonably good word processor. Defining new styles is also more complex in LyX. After hacking around for a while I ended up going back vim and LaTeX directly. Of course, since these are all basically interface issues, they can be addressed eventually (although a graphic way to set up master pages will be a bit of a challenge).
Why?
I don't get it. They already have a Solaris/X11 based product. The Linux version looked exactly the same as the UNIX version, so you can't bitch about the UI. (Correct me it I'm wrong, but Solaris is still using X11, and doesn't have anti-aliasing either.) In the case of Photopaint, is it a matter of bad architecture, or of trying to simply shoe-horn an application from one architecture into another, without trying to understand the fundamental differences?
I don't discount the fact that there isn't a lot of money to be made off the Linux market, but I can't imagine that they are pouring vast amounts of money down a black hole in order to port FM from Unix to Linux!
--
Your Servant, B. Baggins
What surprises me most is that Adobe apparently has a Unix version of FrameMaker 6, that apparently runs on Solaris, HP-UX and AIX. Are there some mysterious Solaris/HP-UX/AIX-specific tricks in the code? One would think they needn't do much more than recompile to get a Linux version...
The fact that there exists a Solaris version smells of Microsoft leverage here. Maybe Microsoft was going to crank up fees on Adobe so they started the Linux port to beat Microsoft on the head with and then agreed to throw it away when they got a better deal from MSFT?
If it smells like sh*t, looks like sh*t, and tastes like sh*t there is a good chance Microsoft is involved. IMHO
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
I do recall running FM 3 in Wine a few years ago, but that was the Win16 version.
Most if not all computers startups, fast growing companies; ie, the future generation of people who write technical documentation, are using linux. Most if not all web sites with technical info are .doc and .ppt files and moving towards publishing .pdf instead.
moving away from publishing
Its vital for these startups that they can edit their chosen standard for technical documentation.
This decision, IMHO, is neither "good" nor "brave". Frankly, it looks entirely political.
OK. Your point is clear. But is this really a problem for a *document* format?
.PDF is supposed to represent, are meant to be quasi-permanent records. What matters is sending data back and forth to different users on different platforms. PDF-3.0, for example, is a fixed target. If you follow the rules, a PDF-3.0 document should work with a PDF-3.0 reader, forever and ever, amen. That's the goal.
For an *executable* format, API, or ABI, you need change in order to keep up with new market demands, and the development of new APIs on the target platform. Software is often upgraded.
Paper documents, however, which
I agree that as documents resemble executables more and more, the goal of an open standard is a good one. Nonetheless, if I have a PDF-3.0 document, nothing forces me to "recompile" it to PDF-4.0 to access some new feature of that "platform." The original document creator didn't use those features anyway. The point is that even if Adobe does something evil and nasty to PDF-4.0, it doesn't degrade compatibility of a PDF document to any preexisting PDF reader. Whereas if Sun changes Java, your Java code might stop working.
I'm not quite sure about the legal details, but I think it would be quite possible to develop an Open equivalent for PDF, which would be defined by variation from a fixed PDF reference.
This version worked for me (in .vimrc, exactly as follows):
:w!<C-m>:!ispell %<C-m>:e<C-m>
map <C-t>
( <C-t>,<C-m> means type in <C-t>,<C-m> not Ctrl-T,Ctrl-M )
Of course, I didn't really do the layout for her, I only (as you did) took an existing one and maybe modified it a bit.
The good thing of this is that you won't be temped to fiddle and play with layout too much, but just accept the (excellent) existing ones. There are other people that know how to make a report/letter/fax layout much better than I do, and it is only good that I have to use them.
I hate those word documents with an unprofessional layout using many different fonts, often even changing the layout during the document.
You want AbiWord! This is an almost perfect
description of what abi can do:
1. We have all these platforms except Mac and the Mac port is progressing well. Though more help here is really appreciated.
2. We're Fully WYSIWYG
3. OK we're weak here right now. Version 1.2 will alomost certainly have equations and tables though.
4. Got this Now. Our native format is Source XML.
We also save to DocBook XML. Plus lots of others.
5. Got all this now.
6. We can export to tex for those that like it.
7. We're getting there. 0.7.12 is a vast improvement over 0.711
With a bit more development Abiword will do all
these things...
Martin Sevior
(AbiWord Developer)
Give Google a try too
Modify the search terms to include the app you're looking for but include several others to be sure you've got a crackz site.
I discuss this in Modern Technology and the Death of Copyright
Yours,
Michael D. Crawford
GoingWare Inc
-- Could you use my software consulting serv
Unfortunately the company was poorly managed - one major investor and for a while the CEO was former Apple President John Sculley. I discuss this in:
The Valley is a Harsh Mistress
which I'd suggest is good reading for anyone thinking of starting a company, or working at a startup.
But anyway, back in 1996 or so Live Picture 2.5 could open multiple 200 megabyte images and composite them together in sophisticated ways on a 68040 Mac with 64 MB of memory or less - with photoshop you need twice as much physical ram as your open files plus a scratch disk also.
With Live Picture, the response was always snappy. Just try opening a 200 MB image in Photoshop and rotate it two degrees. Go have a coffee. In Live Picture, you see the results now and can continue working.
Yes, there is a slow "build" process to save the end result to a TIFF at the end of the day but this can be run unattended, for example overnight and in a batch process.
Further, with Photoshop there's only one chance at undo. With Live Picture, it had essentially infinite undo.
The need to compete with Live Picture is why they added layers to Photoshop.
Photoshop does the job well, admittedly, but it does it in a simple way, through brute force. Live Picture used incredibly sophisticated algorithms and very deeply complex code. It was my job to do the engineering for the Live Picture 2.6.1 release, which was entirely a debug release - I was working with 70 megabytes of C++ code that took over an hour to compile on a Mac 8500/150.
You might also want to read my resignation from Live Picture.
Michael D. Crawford
GoingWare Inc
-- Could you use my software consulting serv
Yes, but FrameMaker isn't a word processor. It can do so much more than Word can even dream of. Yes, there's probably a Word export option, but exporting to Word format would mean potentially losing layout and other information. Sure, you lose formatting info when you save to text (as they recommend) anyway, but if you're going to lose info, why not save in a format that's usable *everywhere*.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
I use framemaker on a dayly basis for writing articles. Luckily I'm not working on linux, so I can continue to work with framemaker.
For those who don't know. Framemaker is a wordprocessor/dtp package for creating large, structured documents such as manuals or in my case, scientific articles. I know somebody who has written a few articles and a thesis with the linux beta. It was that good! I think he's going to be angry when he gets back from his holliday.
The framemaker way of working has been duplicated in KWord, so there's still some hope for the linux platform. Unfortunately, KWord lacks the portability framemaker has (currently is available on Mac, windows and solaris), also it is still a very immature product (0.something last time I checked).
Jilles
There is actually a patch to do this, but I'm not sure exactly how finished it is.
[Science] is one of the very few things that raises human life a little above farce and gives it the grace of tragedy.
PLEASE don't merge it into Staroffice/OpenOffice. That code is superbloated. Recommendations:
Create a GUI from scratch (or borrowing code whenever appropriate or useful) designed specifically for this type of document creation. Unless the GUI works well for the job, you won't convince people to use it. This is another reason to avoide merging with OpenOffice - that interface is designed for a different job. (And is still SLOW.)
If possible, write the GUI code so it can be compiled against multiple toolkits. I know this is difficult, and if it proves to be too much trouble then don't give it priority, but that way people can have a KDE version, GTK version, etc. Personally, if you had to pick one toolkit, I would choose something like the Fast Light Tool Kit. Speed of interface is a Good Thing.
Of course, this is just me talking. Do it however you want to - that's the beauty of open source. In any case, good luck and lets give all the support we can!
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
The answer to your question may be more complex than you want, but that's good! First, FrameMaker binary files are proprietary and fairly well compressed, but precisely for your purposes ;-), Frame provides the MIF (Maker Interchange Format) file Save As option. You might say MIF is internally how a document looks to FrameMaker (just tokenized for memory compactness, I would guess). When spun out as a file format, it is a verbose, complex ASCII representation of the document using SGML-like tagging (i.e., start/end delimiters for everything). Nothing can exist in a document that the MIF version does not describe. Note that when a MIF file is saved by FrameMaker itself, however, all paragraph, character, table, page layout, and other formatting values are included in excrutiating detail. The actual content may be created in a plain text editor using anticipated or existing markup without having to have any of the actual formatting definitions included, if you opened a document like that, FrameMaker would just apply default formatting while maintaining the tag labels. Then you could apply (File:Import Formats) the formatting from any other FrameMaker document and everything would instantly take on whatever layout/formatting was defined there.
Back to MIF. The biggest problem for people trying to do what you describe is that while a MIF file is relatively sequential, some kinds of document elements are not. Tables for example, are described in a separate section of a MIF file and linked in to the actual location in the document via unique ID number references.
Depending on the complexity of the decomposition you're contemplating, you might be better off doing a shallower breakdown of the document and just make use of the bookmarking and search capabilities of Acrobat, for example. In FrameMaker, you can predefine all paragraph tags (e.g., heading levels, etc.) you like to become PDF bookmarks automatically, levels of indent included. And the hyperlinks in FrameMaker's generated Tables of Contents and other generated lists can be maintained in the PDF so you can look at the Table of Contents in Acrobat, click on a topic, and instantly jump to the topic.
The other extension to your answer is that FrameMaker+SGML allows the document creator to build SGML documents within Frame's WYSIWYG environment.
So the best route for you depends a lot on your particular situation, but it sounds like you sure have options!!
>> * Inferior architecture
Inferior to what?
FrameMaker works on UNIX also, and last I looked there wasn't too many differences between UNIX and Linux!!
I think that it makes sense for Adobe: FrameMaker cost big bucks and many Linux users are quite cost sensitive, so the market would be quite small.
Still, it is a pity: FrameMaker is a really, really good product.
If I remember well, KWord is directly inspired by FrameMaker, but reaching the same level as FrameMaker will be hard and it will take time if it ever succeed..
>Note that there was a NeXTstep version of Framemaker
This goes to show Adobe is not in a bad way WRT porting applications. The smaller software companies are the ones who have to make a decision.
Adobe can:
1) take their present Unix base and use that
2) use Carbon
3) revamp the NeXTSTEP version to work with Cocoa or even www.gnustep.org.
Path 1) keeps a UNIX version for the rest of us. 3) can get native Mac OS X support, and keeps an option open for other Unixes.
If Apple ever delivered on the promised YellowBox for Windows, 3) would get a true 'all platforms' option. Alas, that won't happen.
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
(That's a mailing list for technical writers.) As I posted to the Framer's list, I suspect that the beta was a political compromise between pro-Linux and anti-Linux people at Adobe. It was the lamest beta that I ever saw, with only one questionnaire in ten months. And Adobe couldn't even send someone six blocks to exhibit at Linuxworld in San Jose last August. The fact that no reason is given for the beta - nothing about a lack of interest, for example - makes me more convinced than ever that the beta wasn't really serious. I suspect that the strongest reason is that Adobe, unlike Sun or IBM, is oriented towards selling software rather than services, and so views the open source aspects of Linux with distrust. However, had the company looked a little deeper, it would have found that a market for proprietary software does exist in Linux, and it could have had the chance to get in on the ground floor; I suspect that the way Frame is put together would be very appealing to Linux users. For anyone left stranded by the decision, I suggest: a.) the use of a Windows emulator: vmware, win4lin, plex86 or WINE. b.) Open/Star Office: not much better than MS Word, but adequate. c.) Kword: a Framemaker-like tool, but still in the early stages of development. -- Bruce Byfield, Outlaw Communications 604.421.7189 bbyfield@axionet.com (Don't hit me, Bruce...)
"How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
The UNIX ports included are Solaris, HPUX and AIX. I would be stunned if the market share for FrameMaker on AIX would be greater than the potential market share for FrameMaker on Linux. Given this I would guess that at least some of the UNIX ports are payed for by the owners of the respective operating system.
It's pretty common practice for companies to foot the bill for the development costs for pieces of software that they feel is necessary for the validity of their platform but which the software company doesn't feel it could make its development and marketing expenses back at. Since Linux doesn't have a company that really represents it (there are lots of companies that make money off of it, but no companies that represent it) the porting costs aren't payed.
The number of subscribers to the beta test program probably couldn't be extrapolated to a large enough paying user base. A large part of the blame to this probably lies on Adobe's head though, I happened across the beta program at a time when my main box was moving from a traditional UNIX platform to Linux.
Sometimes those decisions are forced on a company against the wishes of even the senior management by the stockholder, venture capitalists, or the perceived interests of wall street.
Please read:
The Valley is a Harsh Mistress
Michael D. Crawford
GoingWare Inc
-- Could you use my software consulting serv
The problem is that Postscript is *executable*, so it is potentially hardware dependent, but more importantly, the results of printing are due to running a Postscript program.
This makes it extremely hard to do things like "extract page 10", because you have to run the program until it outputs 9 pages, somehow defeating the actual output, wait for it to request output for the 10th time, capture the raster memory, then kill the program.
PDF is a document format. It is static data, not dynamic program flow.
The problem with HTML+images is
1) every browser displays and formats them differently
2) what image format to use?
PDF practically eliminates (1) and gives you essentially all the power of Postscript vector and bitmap graphics for (2), independent of output device.
There is no technological reason why PDF can't be displayed just as transparently as HTML+images. Browser vendors seem to think that plugins are just fine.
I mean, what is really the difference between "downloading a file" and downloading a HTML+images file, except that the browser holds your hand a bit more and hides all the details for the latter?
Hmm...I'm curious why you think 'eqnarray' is a bad LaTeX environment. I've been using LaTeX and TeX for 6 or 7 years, written >1k pages, and have had plenty of opportunities for it's use. Please explain to me what the big problem with 'eqnarray' is.
Yes...I am a rocket scientist.
About the PDF format's lack of support in a variety of applications: I'm vaguely familiar with the PDF format... My guess as to why it's not supported by many applications is that 1) it's kind of difficult to write, and 2) why use it if you already have post-script and a utility like ps2pdf? I've read some of the FOP Java src, and let me tell you, the PDF formatter is inscrutable to my untrained eye. The file spec involves a lot of angle brackets single letter "keys" and byte offsets. It's truly NOT a human readable format. Post-Script, on the other hand, is managable at a certain level as human readable. I will admit that Adobe has been less than kind about sharing their PDF generating libraries. Currently they're available to some select business partners, probably at a hefty fee. Then there are a few third party libraries like PDFlib, and iText, and a bunch I can't remember... I don't think that the FOP PDF formatter is generalizable (?) I think it needs an area tree (xsl thingy) as an input, but don't quote me on that. There are a million and a half post-script libraries out there, many of them free, many of which fail to suck. Of course that dosn't get many of us any closer to "Export > PDF" in xfig, or whatever... As a closing remark regarding the start of this thread: I'd like to blame the people who generate those offensive PDFs rather than Adobe. Adobe may not have the Linux community's interests in mind, but I don't think they've gone out of their way to screw us. It is certainly still possible to generate PDFs that wont break in acroread, ghostview, or xpdf, but the windoze-centric user, of which there are many, is ready and willing to use Verdona since they're told, and they believe it's "standard."
Bill - aka taniwha
--
Bill - aka taniwha
--
Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
I wrote a web page a long time ago about why I quit Mac programming and took up the BeOS instead
But after too many years of too many broken promises from Be, Inc. I spoke up one too many times on BeDevTalk and got forcibly unsubscribed after being one of Be's most loyal developers, and winning an award for shipping one of the few actual commercial BeOS applications.
I haven't had any first-hand experience with Microsoft but I have heard many horror stories that didn't make it into the Microsoft/DoJ antitrust trial. Remember that one of DoJ's problems was getting executives to testify publicly - but there's no shortage of developers willing to confide privataly about how Microsoft has screwed them.
One very public example is Stacker Software. They invented filesystem compression. Microsoft offerred to purchase Stacker, and examined their source code under nondisclosure while doing due diligence. Then they canceled the acquisition and came out with their own implementation of filesystem compression. Stacker sued and won over $100 million.
For the past year I have been working with the ZooLib cross-platform application framework. It allows you to write a single set of C++ sources and build native executables for Mac OS, Windows, BeOS and POSIX flavors that provide XWindows (such as Linux).
I believe ZooLib represents one important part of a strategy for freeing ourselves from these broken promises.
Please read why I think ZooLib is good for the community
Note that I include quotes from Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson, who presided over the antitrust trial, one how Microsoft felt that it was so important to put a stop to cross-platform API's that it broke the law to interfere with their widespread use.
Jackson makes the same observation in his rulings that I have noticed in the past, that API and OS vendors work very hard to get developers to code to the native API rather than using a portability layer, as doing so locks the developer into the platform.
Michael D. Crawford
GoingWare Inc
-- Could you use my software consulting serv
PDF is actually a great, OPEN, format (like PS). It's really great for (La)TeX applications. PDFTeX (http://tug.org/applications/pdftex/index.html) is just AMAZING! ps2pdf on Ghostscript is very close to being a Distiller killer (for my purposes it only needs
better compression). And Ghostscript definitely works better than Acrobat 3.0 in many ways.
PDF was a great contribution. On the commercial front though, Linux just has not been able to fit into their business plans. Adobe can and should be criticized fiercely for this, but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
About not being able to read other PDF's, part of the problem lies in the way the original pdfs were created and way Distiller was configured when they were created (the option to embed all fonts is not the default, so many are probably just unaware of the problem). Also, some newer PDF 4.0 files cannot be read with old 3.0 readers. So it's not all Adobe's fault! You could email the companies whose catalogs you can't read and tell them to check their Distiller settings. I'm sure they want your business so their marketing products will probably look into it.
Samawi
Why wouldn't they give up? They create this huge complex document creation product, and /. jerks call it a "word processor." I bet they felt insulted and did it out of honor ;)
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
The point with having a Linux-version of Framemaker isn't really that it would get a lot of new users for Adobe.
No, the point is for Adobe to keep its existing customers in the Unix market!. Consider: We are using Framemaker on Sun and other "traditional" Unix computers, and we have a number of floating licenses. We have used Framemaker for many years, it's our heavy-duty document production system. But now we're getting rid of all the slow Sun computers, and we are buying Linux computers instead! And all new employees get a Linux PC now, we don't buy Sun or other "traditional" Unix computers anymore. The point is that the Unix market is rapidly shifting over to Linux, and if we can't use Framemaker on the new computers then we're going to abandon Frame and Adobe will lose a long-time customer. We're talking a lot of licenses here! And we're not alone. A lot of other companies with Unix platforms are doing exactly the same as we do, i.e. shifting over from Sun or HP or whatever to Linux. Many of these are big Frame users.
Adobe will lose these users if there's no Linux version.
TA
*Acrobat* is not *PDF*. Adobe upgrading Acrobat, or even releasing new versions of the PDF spec, does not invalidate previous PDF specs or documents made using earlier versions.
.PDF format that isn't publically and clearly documented, or can't be read or generated by a sufficiently "free" program.
Now, people sending you PDF-99.9 documents could someday be a problem, but complain about that when Adobe comes up with a
We are a unix shop on this side of the engineering/marketing wall, and the other side is of course windows. Frame on Solaris is all we use for technical documents, and because there are windows versions marketing can accualy work with us. (Though they much prefer word for some unknown reasons - I know nothing about word)
On my boss's desk is a 800mhz pc running linux that he uses as a x terminal. (Seriously, xfree86 is the only app, which displays applications running on a (slower!) solaris box elsewhere. We all knnow it is a waste, but it is cheaper then the other X terminals we have, and works better. The point is that he could run Frame on the linux machine and everything would be faster. (Frame because it is on a local mahcine, everything else because that is one less app to fight for CPU cycles)
I may be off base, but I would have thought a Linux version would have been a valuable addition to them, not only because of the Linux market but also because of the market that can use Linux binaries. I would immagine (and I may be very wrong) that BSD users, or users of Solaris x86 would both benifit from a Linux version that they could run through each OS's linux compatibility layer (similar to the way Corel used WINE to make WordPerfect 2000 available on Linux).
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
I have to agree with you - I used Ventura and Framemaker and greatly prefer Ventura. However, Corel is in deep trouble, their attempt to make a comeback via Linux failed (perhaps, in part, because of the sadly negative reaction from so many Linux users, another story) and finally MS bailed them out. So don't expect them to go any further with Linux. Damn shame too, second edition Corel Linux is probably the finest distro for the non-technical windows user crowd in existence. Anyhow... don't expect Ventura for Linux at this point.
The good news is that TeX LeX and LaTeX are here, they are free, they work very well. Yes, they could be more user friendly. But hanging a GUI on a solid mature product is a lot easier than reinventing the wheel.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
As long it is hidden.
And I mean, VERY WELL HIDDEN.
Why, thankee, ShadyG. Kind of nice to see someone take notice. Interestingly, split infinitives inexorably are going the way of the subjunctive mood and will vs. shall. I can't type an infinitive without hearing William Shatner intone "...to boldly go where no man has before!"
"How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
NextStep -> Display Postscript
OpenStep -> Display Postscript
(change a couple lines of code here and there)
MacOS X -> Display PDF
So you're using an experimantal beta for production documents and then get mad when they don't offer a final product? Its beta for a reason, the readme probably said don't use it for "blah blah".
Thats like using a devel kernel and complaining about broken features.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
The problem with HTML+images is 1) every browser displays and formats them differently 2) what image format to use? PDF practically eliminates (1) and gives you essentially all the power of Postscript vector and bitmap graphics for (2), independent of output device.
Point 1: My browser (theoretically) displays and formats in a way that is appropriate for my display and taste. A PDF displays someone else's idea of a good layout formatted appropriatly for their display (possably not mine). I do not understand people who go into convulsions over the thought that a browser might deviate so much as a nanometer from their idea of perfect layout (these are probably the same people who sent 'ransom note' type business letters when the Mac came out).
Point 2: Just choose a standard one. All image capable browsers are capable of GIF (patent problems) or JPEG (fine). PNG looks like a decent contender soon. XPM works well.
The difference? HTML + images is potentially useful if I'm using lynx or a palm VII, I can start reading before the 2 GB worth of images download, I can hit stop if I see from the beginning that the document is not at all what I thought it was. To a marketing person: I'm a lot more likely to just say 'screw it' and click away if my only options are PDF downloads, No Sale.
Naturally, most programs that produce PostScript do not produce properly written PostScript.
Agreed! Even then, it's usually easy enough to pre-pend a new definition of showpage that increments a page counter and returns. When the counter hits the desired page, call the real showpage.
Mind you, LaTeX is okay if you don't mind using one of its canned document types, but if you want to create your own, especially for an audience that would rather see something that doesn't look like an academic journal article, Lout is a dream to use. Everything coded in raw TeX feels like a kludge; Lout has an elegant and flexible document model that makes it possible to write clean code.
--
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
It fails your non-TeX requirement though :-(. Anyway, if you haven't tried it yet I suggest you do.
Also, I should point out that I'm in no way connected to the LyX project other than that I have used it a couple of times and think their WYSIWYM idea is *excellent*. So some of this information may very well be wrong, although of course I think it is correct.
Cheers //Johan
Installed the Bubblemon yet?
LyX wasn't quite there yet
You just might want to take another look at LyX nowadays. I installed it at the beginning of this semester, and haven't looked back (I used to use Wordperfect). It's quite easy to use, you don't have to know LaTeX, but if you do you can still use LaTeX commands. I write all my math/engineering homework, and my history papers in it, its quite nice now. Outputs LaTeX, so that you can use your favorite LaTeX processor on it (I use teTeX). For those who require PDF... there's always ps2pdf. And LyX does spell checking, has a nice equation editor, handles all your footnotes and cross-references, etc. Definitely worth taking a look at, especially for those who shy away from non-GUI interfaces.
Those who do not know the past are doomed to reimplement it, poorly.
Exactly.
For this kind of work, Linux does not shine - the only reason to use it is for cost reasons, and when something costs $1500, you can afford a copy of Windows to go with it, so the only market is from graphic artist Unix zealots, and I don't think there's too many of them!
Free Anne Tomlinson!!
Or maybe you should help along another project which is doing a very similar thing: LyX
Those who do not know the past are doomed to reimplement it, poorly.
Is there a freeware alternative? Gimp is great as a Photoshop replacement, but what about Framemaker?
Dirty Pirate Hooker
Ultimately FrameMaker's "competition" in the Linux market isn't another program, it's an attitude--that there's always a free alternative, and that the free alternative is always preferable. In point of fact, there are alternatives but there is nothing similar to FrameMaker in the free software world. The closest to it is LyX. I like LyX (although after playing with it I decided I liked straight LaTeX better), but there are things FrameMaker can do that will always be difficult or even impossible for LyX to do, because TeX's concept of a document doesn't include frames. (KWord's concept of a document does, but it doesn't include everything else that FrameMaker does.)
This isn't terribly surprising--FrameMaker may not quite be in a vertical market, but it's close. The front page article describing it as a "word processor" is perhaps the biggest hint as to why Adobe gave up--it's not a word processor, it's a book publishing system. There are a lot of companies using it internally for documentation and technical manuals. Many of O'Reilly's books are produced with FrameMaker. Could you do all those things with LaTeX? Sure, given enough time--but this is one of those fields where a good GUI saves you an immense amount of work. I've done layout for magazines in the past, and I can assure you that even something like LyX would be an utter nightmare compared even to Microsoft Publisher, let alone PageMaker or Xpress.
I know there are Linux fans who won't use any non-free software on principle; while I'm not one of them, I respect that. But I'm sure Adobe knew about them and obviously wasn't targeting them. If they've backed away from this it's because, I would surmise, they feel that the people who are using Linux who aren't gung-ho "free as in speech" types are "free as in beer" types. They've adopted the rhetoric of the free software movement mostly because they like the idea of having a lot of software they don't have to pay for. I can't be too critical of this--I like the idea of having a lot of software I don't have to pay for, too.
But I don't think that the perception of a "we won't pay for it if there's a free alternative that's kind of close" attitude being rampant in the Linux community is a harbinger of the impending death of shrinkwrap software. But it might be a sign of why commercial companies doing personal and "workstation" software probably aren't going to get real enthusiastic about Linux. We'll see commercial offerings from companies that expect to be selling support contracts, or that are looking at their Linux products as loss leaders; beyond that you see companies expecting to make money entirely from services (like Eazel and Helix Code, who despite being "partners" seem to be developing the same service model, which could lead to much hilarity down the road--but we digress).
There's a couple exceptions out there, like ApplixWare, and of course Night Of The Living Corel. But they're going to have to not merely be better than their free counterparts, they're going to have to virtually blow them out of the water, with reasonable pricing and enough unduplicated features that a reasonable percentage of the audience wants them. And that'll be increasingly difficult. (I'm more impressed by AbiSource's ambition than their product, but Ted--which doesn't get the recognition it deserves--absolutely rocks.)
This does beg a question. How does a company that's selling personal software, rather than the support for the software, make money in the Linux world? This isn't just an idle curiosity; some people think Linux is going to lead the world into a software renaissance, and while that's not impossible, there needs to be space for cottage software companies to actually make money and take off. So far the only ones that have done that seem to be ones that are selling Linux itself. Will AbiSource, for example, ever make money? That seems to be their goal, but nobody needs a support contract for a spreadsheet program--and by choosing to be GPL, they can't take the Ghostscript route of being "free for non-commercial use" and charge business licenses. (This would seem to me to be a workable approach, but some would argue--with justification--it's not in the spirit of open source if you have a commercial limitation like that.)
It's a shame they pulled the product. Even though Corel WordPerfect won't be long for this world after Office 2001 (except in law firms and medical practices...) they made a good decision to release it on the Linux platform. I just wish Lotus would release a version of the Notes client for Linux...then I'd never need Windows again!
I just had to convert an 80 page word document to pdf. After it bailing on me several times and taking up to an hour for each attempt. I printed it to a .ps file instead, then used ps2pdf. Bingo, problem solved.
When I called Adobe to ask about an auto-install method of the acrobat reader, for hundreds of windoze desktops, I was told that there wasn't one, but I could download their api and write one myself! Hmmm, if I have to write my own software why would I use some proprietary shit? I pay for proprietary s/w because I'm paying someone else to solve these problems..... ! Unreal. Seriously, these folks have an attitude problem.
Heh.. poor souls lost for Gate$ware and Job$ware.
And thinking of this kind of lay-offs... when will be the moment when RealNetw0rks will discontinue RealPlayer G2 for Linux?
--
I love the GIMP, but after even a brief spell using Photoshop, I have to say it has a loooong way to go. I'm sure it will get there, but it ain't a replacement for Photoshop yet.
I have seen people try to write something like a journal article or a thesis in Word or WordPerfect. Almost uniformly, I have seen them give up and switch to FrameMaker or TeX/LaTeX, which are both much more suited for such endeavors.
wasn't the dragon book set in TROFF or something equally vile?
It's too bad that Adobe couldn't make FrameMaker for Linux by accident, like Linus made Linux by accident. Oh well...
EDA companies have no problem making money in the Linux world -- they're diving into it as fast as they can. The reason is that there's nothing remotely like their products on the horizon in either the speech or beer free camps.
Remember ESR's analysis: commodities tend towards free solutions, while bleeding-edge stuff can command premium pricing. It's just that publishing (word processing, dtp, etc.) are heading towards commodity status.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Framemaker is not a DTP application.
It is used for editing large, structured documents - e.g. documentation for complex SW systems (I use it for that since it is the official editor to be used here), so it is a potential tool for the technically able.
And I know a great many people who run Linux AND use FM - e.g all the people in this office - suprising, eh?
And to shed some more light on the insanity of their decision, they DO support FM on other unices (HP-UX for example)
Do you still find that much sense in their decision?
Real life is overrated.
Troll.
A beta is given in good faith that the user will test, give feedback, and discontinue using the program after a certain time period. Usually there are agreements to sign, or at least a pop-up box to click "OK, I accept the TOS." This is all obvious and trivial; you were just trolling anyway.
... that the Frame filters for KWord just got prioritized up. The semantics are similar enough that it should be a lot cleaner than Word, WordPerfect, or whatever.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
> I have graphics dudes around me, and they
> like Apple Macs, and, in a few cases, Windows -
> they don't like Unix, and couldn't use it.
That would be a good reason[1] not to support Unix. However, they _do_ support Unix, just not Linux.
[1] Appart from the fact that Framemaker isn't really a "graphics application". It is more of a document preperation system, covering a niche somewhere between MS Word and TeX.
Options 2 and 3 are the most time consuming, but option 1 isn't viable as the money isn't there
"Software is the difference between hardware and reality"
Should not use TeX as an intermediate format. TeX creates nice output, but it needs a complete rewrite to get rid of static data structures, and make the error messages human readable. Everyone who has used TeX for something useful has made major modifications to TeX to make it processes his/her particular document (changed 20 constants in a config file or recompiled the package). It amazes me that Donald Knuth has kept his guru status, when the second most known piece of work he has done is TeX ... It certainly tells something about how excellent his most known work is (yes, it is excellent, this is not a flame).
Having written a 200-page technical document in LaTeX (I wish I'd known about LyX at the time!!) I'm afraid I don't share your view on TeX. Having put my document through the ringer, generating indices, tables of contents, multi cross references and three layers of sectioning, interspersed with multiple diagrams in multiple formats, I just did not have to fiddle with the base package at all. Armed with Leslie Lamports guide to LaTeX, there were no obscure error messages and any formatting decisions it made were logical, even if they weren't entirely what I intended. In the few cases where you get the infamous all-the-images-at-the-end-of-the-chapter problem, it just took a little rethinking and some coaxing in the LaTeX (not the C code) to get it where I wanted it.
And just in case I had a tweaked copy on the Solaris cluster I was using LaTeX on, I got identical results on my Linux box with the same files.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.
It's one of those things you grow to like, IMHO. On the surface, it looks basic and awkward, but once you really get to understand it's way of working (selection masks, layering and so on), it's very powerful and flexible. Once you know what's going on, there is a lot you can do without resorting to filters and plugins (except perhaps a few of the blurs - when I was a lad, we didn't have drop shadow filters, and we had to wear wooden shoes).
Of course, Paintshop and Photopaint both have a lot of similar features now, as does GIMP, but they all seem clunkier at doing the same thing (to me). The feel isn't quite right. Obviously that's partly just that I'm comfortable with Photoshop now.
Don't get me started on vector graphics packages though - can't anyone make a decent one with more useful snap options? The guys who made Calamus for the Atari ST had a good illustrator clone with features you still can't get in Canvas, Illustrator or Freehand.
"don't fall into the fallacy of believing that Perl can solve social problems. Maybe Perl 6 can, but that's a ways off"
I remember hearing about how you could override the standard time functions by using an LD_PRELOAD trick. That is, you can supposedly fool a time limited program into thinking that it's really a date inside the valid period. But I've never seen an implementation. Does anybody have a pointer on how to do this?
Read the subject. I'm pretty confused, actually. From my own experience (which is, to be honest, using graphics programs to augment what I'm really up to), I find Photoshop to be slow and klunky (this with 600 MHz P3 + 256 MB RAM)...
Otoh, I find GIMP Win32 to be faster, and Paint Shop Pro to be the best of the three. I even like Corel Photopaint better. What am I missing that the Photoshop lovers see?
Sadly enough, the GIMP (while an amazing piece of software) is *not* 'so much better' than Photoshop. Anyone with production graphics experience who's looked at the GIMP will express that opinion.
Despite the fact that the GIMP *is* a very powerful and useful piece of software, it isn't up to giving all the tools to graphics professionals that they need.
I don't think Adobe feels any particular need to move anything towards the Linux platform. It's just not their core market.
The question they were hoping to ask with Frame was "Will our existing Frame/Unix customer base be moving to Linux, and will we lose those customers if we don't have a Linux offering." I can only conclude that their market studies answered that with a 'no'.
I haven't read the article yet, but I hope that Adobe's willing to reconsider their decision as the Linux market share grows. In a fluid market space, no such decision ought ever to be final. I had great hopes that FrameMaker would help to anchor Linux that much more firmly as a "real" workplace alternative to Windows. I think a lot of us tech-scribblers who like Linux would appreciate having a much more powerful alternative to Star Office. I don't think even emacs and TeX together could give technical writers the kind of flexibility and creative and organizational control over documents that FM does -- certainly, not with the same ease of use (without absolutely fiendish tweaking, manhandling, and front-end customization). I've pondered buying the UNIX version of FM and seeing if I can tweak Linux to play nicely with it -- that would be an act of intellectual levitation on my part -- but obviously Adobe won't support me if I'm trying to run their product on the "wrong" platform. Well, I guess it's back to hitting my knees every night before I go to bed, praying for a freeware alternative. Maybe some hacker out there will reverse-engineer FM, look at its feature space, and make a freeware alternative. Sure, and I might get lucky with Carmen Electra. :o/
"How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
2-3 years ago, I was facing this difficult choice for writing my thesis: LyX wasn't quite there yet, staroffice (still from stardiv at the time) looked good but wasn't quite there yet either, and everybody else in the lab (99.9% of the people) were complaining about all kinds of problems in office97, or from migration to one system to another (one guy managed to go nearly all the way through from 2 to 2000, but it took him a lot longer than anybody else to get his PhD ;)...
WYSIWIG is great for short documents... something you manage to write in a few minutes and can still handle the layout of.
Anything bigger than a few pages, a few dozens of cross-references to sections, equations, figures, citations and word pukes. It doesn't do it straight away, though... but slowly at first and giving-up more and more errors as the document grows.
Then when you want to print to another printer that isn't the one you wrote your document for, the layout and page breaks go all over the place. This Isn't Normal.
I remember having had this discussion on /. at the time and several people advised me to move to LaTeX.
Sure I was shit scared to do anything the size of a thesis in TeX... need to compiling documents before you can see them, limited xdvi viewer, no spell checker... all in all LaTeX isn't very appealing for the new user.
But think about it this way: A 200page document is quite a big project. If it were a big programming project, would you rather rely on a limited point and click tool somebody who doesn't understand shit about the stuff you're really doing, or would you rather do it yourself with a powerful language like c, c++... insert your favorite language here.
There you go! and you don't expect the learning curve to be easy either, do you?
So yes, it was quite a difficult move for me, but fortunately, there are good documents on the net... just grab a copy of epslatex.pdf from a CTAN mirror and The not so short introduction to LaTeX 2e.
The most amazing thing about LaTeX is very simple: It's Open. This means that any part of your document, you can generate yourself from your programs. Need to generate a table with figures? just do it.
The same thing goes to two other programs I extensively used: grace and xfig. Yes they have somewhat limited interfaces, but you can generate the data from your own programs, so who cares about the interface?! they have open and well documented formats, it's the only thing that should matter.
For spell checking, I used aspell, again, who cares about real-time error correcting when you can do it in one go near the end?
For the editor, I don't know what you usually use, I use vi (improved :) and it works great. Use whatever you want.
Okay, I probably should stop being a LaTeX zealot, just think about it. Okay, you wouldn't start writing c++ code to just rename a few files... that's why bash is here for. The same way, to quickly produce a dirty document, wysiwyg is handy... but anything bigger than a few lines of code and you'll start to feel limited if you stay in bash instead of going for c/c++... same with documents... And when the program you're using is Trully Open, then you don't depend on The Big Corps who don't give a shit about you, just your money...
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"Hasta la victoria siempre!" El Comandante
So this is about a beta lic that expires and can't be renewed. Hmmmmpppfff. You folks put a major investment in your academic careers into a piece of demoware? Yeah it sucx that John Warnock doesn't see this as a viable product or, given whatever resources they have can't devote appropriate resources to Linux as a fully supported platform. But that's life - ya pays ya money ya makes ya cherse!
Welcome to the real world of software product development for the desktop.
...when used as an intermediate format. Just like the quality of the error messages of the assembler is irrelevant when chosing it as an intermediate format for a compiler. You should never see them. If the front-end produce incorrect output, it is a bug.
Regarding the rest of your flame:
1) The use of static datastructures was a deliberate tradeoff between portability and flexibility. It made sense at the time, so it doesn't detract from Knuth's reputation.
2) Today the default sizes of the static datastructures are large enough that few users need to change them. Perhaps you used TeX many years ago.
If you're writing a letter to Aunt Sally, or any other short one-of-a-kind document, A word processor is the best solution. It's simple and lets you manage things easily. Ditto for HTML.
/newcommand to tell latex. One of these days, I'll put up some source code to tell people the most frequent uses&misuses of latex.
If you're writing a hundred very similar documents, or you have a thousand people collaberating writing documentation, Some type of structured XML is the best. It'll let you have a consistent look&feel, and it'll help avoid people shooting each others foot. It also lets you design the input language around the semantic structure of what you're writing. You amortize the creation of the DTD and software over the large number of documents/pages being written.
But, If you're writing documents that have a lot of semantic complexity (mathematics books, papers, etc.) but each document is a one-off, Latex tends to be better as a half&half. It lets you create some simple semantic structure in a powerful, flexible, and easy way. In a sense, you merge the presentation language with the semantic meaning. It doesn't divorice the two issues from each other like XML, but it puts in a distinction that avoids the micromanaging hell of word processors.
It all depends on the type of document you are writing, how many people are collaberating, and number of documents of that type that will be written.
(One good sign of LaTeX being misused is the use of 'eqnarray'. I've used latex for 3 years, written >400 pages in it, and never used it once. Ditto for vspace. If you have useful semantic structure, use
> If you've written a few hundred pages of > document with it, it doesn't matter whether it > is a bug -- you've still got to get that report > done, and an inexplicable error is a major
> problem.
And how is this different than any other bug? A bug that prevent saving the document is a major problem as well. Or a bug that causes &-signs to be written as %-signs on odd-pages when writting PDF output can cost you just as much work. Or a segfault that comes when you press SPACE after an underlined period. Bugs in software you use are time-consuming, period.
The question is whether code for generating TeX code is more likely to contain bugs, than code trying to duplicate the work done by TeX.
Most commercial Unixen includes Display Postscript support in their X servers. Since DS is an Adobe product, it would make sense if Framemaker made use of it.
In fact its a challenge to the open source community. A FrameMaker clone outputting PDF. Lets merge it into the StarOffice suite.
Okay. E-mail me and we'll start drawing up specs. My forte is 3D visualization so I'm not the best person to do this but its got to start somewhere.
Lets take Frame Maker apart "at face value," list every presentation (aka: window, dialog box,) every button (aka: gadget, widget,) every menu item, draw up dialog descriptions (I have a diagramming technique to do this, I can email a copy of the article from the January 1990 issue of Computer Language Magazine, [it'll be on my site ASAP,]) and factor out an object structure to support all of the functionality.
By the way: PDF Good, closed spec.s BAD.
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