Slashdot Mirror
Mozilla 0.7 Released
mpt writes: "Mozilla 0.7 has been released. This is the first release with PSM (the Personal Security Manager) included on Win32, Mac OS, and Linux, so secure sites should work without extra fiddling. Other noticable changes since 0.6 include better mousewheel behavior, Microsoft Proxy Server support, treating maximized windows properly on Win32, and numerous performance improvements (especially for NNTP). So try it out, and report dem bugs." Since Mozilla.org and Mozillazine are now reporting this, we figure the mirrors have had time to update. :)
please make sure the bugs also occur in a recent nightly build. Mozilla 0.7 branched about two weeks ago so your bug might have been fixed since then.
By the way, today's nightlies are pretty good - several recent regressions were fixed. Two new bugs in today's builds that weren't in 0.7: links on some pages are ignored and home page isn't displayed on startup under Win32 when using -console option.
The shareholder is always right.
Anything like this for Win32? It would be nice!
Sure: http://www.mozillazine.org/build_comments/
I run Debian/Linux, and use that "build bar" to decide when to upgrade. It should be fine for Win32 users as well.
At the pace the Mozilla project is going, 0.7 is going to be obselete in a week, so keep the link handy.
- Dr. Foo Barson
My only real issue right now is stability. It seems to crash about every 15-20 minutes. But, then again it is still in development, so I expect that when they do hit 1.0 (hell, 0.8) this will be a thing of the past.
Good job, keep up the good work.
"Reality is less than television."-Brian Oblivion
This is actually much faster, and certainly simpler. It is faster because the area is only drawn once (it is extremely hard to make the program's redraw be able to assumme the area is already erased, since the same code must be used for incremental update when there is no damage, and I doubt Mozilla does this).
More importantly this reduces blinking. For Mozilla which must change the background color for each page, except for a single background color (gray, probably) it will blink to gray and then to the correct color for every page. Even if the color is fixed, or even if background pixmaps are used, it will still blink when a large image or table in a different color is drawn in that area.
Blinking is very annoying and is the primary reason X displays often look like crap when you move windows.
I very much believe this is the correct behavior. I would like to see X fixed so that resizing and mapping windows, and in fact everything except drawing commands from the programs does not alter pixels on the screen. This would vastly reduce the annoying flashing behavior.
The fact that Mozilla is so slow that you would prefer to see the solid gray (actually a very slow version of this "blink") is of course Mozilla's fault, but erasing windows is not the solution.
You mean like what I can setup by editing my user specific $HOME/.mozilla/$moz_profile_name/plugin.list file? You know, the one that's user configurable and everything.
--
"Don't trolls get tired?"
it's slower to start a window, but page rendering tends to actually be faster than 4.7, with the notable exception of soros.ath.cx which is still faster on 4.7. Slashdot, on the other hand, renders faster in mozilla than ns47, when I hit one of those 500 comment articles, that I read in nested mode.
--
"Don't trolls get tired?"
HP/UX is not a fringe operating system, Mozilla supporter.
::grin::)
:)
It is from a Desktop user perspective.
I'd venture to say that Linux has a bigger space in the desktop/workstation market then HP-UX (although I'd bet most of those are develpment machines in people's homes vs. in the workplace).
Oh.. and I started using the nightly build from 7/5 as my main browser recently. A little wonkieness certainly, (sometimes downloading files bombs out with an odd message followed by the browser crashing soon after), but it seems to do much better than NS4.08 (which is now my secondary browser), and almost on par with IE5.0 (my tertiary browser... or was that part of my OS?
YMMV but I think they should be ready for a release candidate real soon. The installer even let me pick to just install the browser which made me a very happy camper indeed
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
OK, so this is the Stupid Question of the week, but maybe I am not the only one wondering.
Are these 0.x releases:
a) a continutation of the Mxx releases (Milestones) with a new name (to show that they are approaching 1.0); or
b) a forked development started by Netscape 6 with the Milestones development abandoned (say, a branched development like GCC->EGCS->GCC but then more planned); or
c) a forked development started by Netscape 6 that stands independent of the Milestone builds (something like GCC->EGCS before these two developments met again)?
Thanks in advance.
It's... It's...
"We can confirm that Debian does *not* ship the version with the trojan horse. Our version predates it." [CA-2002-28]
Even better....they fixed that date, but now 0.6 says it was released in December of 2001. Wow!
seems a wee bit faster and more stable than 0.6. If they can improve it a little more it will be fine.
On win32 it installed java and for the little I used it it seemed preaty stable, but I turned it off as soon as I remembered I had to dither with the settings :)
(don't like java unless I ask for it)
(posting from the 5/1/01 nightly build)
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
This isn't really valid -- look at some of the other good browsers available (Konqueror and Opera for Linux, and IE for 'doze) and you'll notice that all of them smoke the living daylights out of Mozilla, while providing quite capable DOM and reflow (better than Mozilla's, in most cases!).
Sure, they can be a bit pokey at times doing one thing or another, but in general, they just haul compared to the 'zilla.
Really, Mozilla being incredibly slow is probably not really because of the rendering engine being sluggish (though it could probably use some usability tuning). It's more due to the horribly designed theming engine and widget set, as you surmised. A quick look at Galeon should convince anyone of this, and also hint at the even greater speedup that could appear if it was dumped completely.
I recall doing some cheezy benchmarks a couple months ago, and found that on the same machine, rendering a page with a bunch of text boxes (thus hitting the XUL junk hard), IE and Netscape 4.75 were both between 20 and 40 times faster than Mozilla (and had better layout usability as well -- Mozilla just had a blank screen, while IE laid out the table incrementally. NS4 didn't, but didn't freeze up either, or at least, was so fast it didn't appear to freeze up).
Eg., NS and IE laid out the page in under 2 seconds, while Mozilla took more than 20. Taking into account the ~1s server generation lag to create the page, that's rather bad. And, of course, since Mozilla is a massive threaded app, instead of forking off children as it should, it froze up completely during rendering in all windows.
Actually, usability speed, as opposed to "real" speed, is one of the big problems with Mozilla right now. It's often fairly comparable with other browsers at producing a finished product of a page, but is very, very slow in terms of the UI feel. Status bars don't update often, gizmos don't pulse and flash, the page doesn't flash on quickly and then get reflowed, etc. The end result is that it's slow to begin with, and once the nasty UI is through with it, it seems like the days of the 386 have escaped to haunt us.
For some reason, my M16 install decided one day to stop running any plug-ins. Ergo, no Flash (no Thugs on Film! Henious!), no Real Audio (no Car Talk!), and Plugger never worked. Do plug-ins work on M17? Has anyone else seen this on M16?
.mozilla directory several times to try to clean this up, to no avail...
I've removed the both the Mozilla install and the
www.eFax.com are spammers
As for the news reader, that's supposed to be greatly improved with this new version. I guess I'll find out when I get it.
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NO CARRIER
Even if people don't use it Mozilla is important simply for that reason. And people will use it...
Works better then NS4.x and yes i'm talking about the x86 Linux version. It uses the jkd1.3 jvm from sun. Just get the browser and go to a java site like java.sun.com, a popup will ask you if you wish to install the jdk plugin say yes, and your done. I use the nighly builds, and i'll never go back to Netscape 4x
In my experience, any URL will do, given enough chances.
All kings is mostly rapscallions. -Mark Twain, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn
From the Compatibility Information:
For Red Hat Linux 7, you must install the Standard C++ libraries for Red Hat 6.x compatibility. Get the package from the Red Hat 7 installation CD or download it from Red Hat. (Bug 59012)
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I have yet to find an IE-only website that is worth going to. Even among the plug-ins, the only ones that seem useful (and only rarely at that) are Java and Flash4.
I really like Konqueror. I think it is much faster than Mozilla, and when it works it works really well. Unfortunately Konqueror is not yet as stable as Mozilla---Konqueror seems to blow up about 3 times more frequently than Mozilla, and it doesn't work with Datek.
BTW, I use Gnome as my desktop and Konqueror as my browser.
From the Installation Notes:
Before installing on Linux, you must have write permission for the target installation directory. (Bug 46588)
So it's saying that I need +w in the install directory when I install Mozilla? No way!
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I'm also a web developer interested in the cusps of DOM and CSS and the consistent cross-platform highly-compliant nature of Mozilla means I can develop with these new technologies and refer visitors to Mozilla if the pages don't render.
So I really look forward to using M.7. I've been using nightly builds a lot in the past couple weeks anticipating the .7 release and every build is a bit better than the previous. I applaud the Mozilla effort.
MyopicProwls
MyopicProwls
My homepage
Waah, roaming access yet (yeah I know, d/l the source and hack it in..)?
Wow, I know people complain about the releases being behind schedule, but now their going backwards.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
A light Mozilla session vastly overshadows the memory utilization of NS4.x. Infact, it beats Lotus Notes, and other major bloatware. If you leave the process inactive for a while, and the memory utilizaiton hits 50MB or so... it is a real drag to click on an icon as everything very slowly returns from swap. I hope these are memory leaks... and if so, that they're correctable.
Does anybody who has the source code know what it taking up all that RAM?
OTOH, NS4.x and IE5 run on minimal hardware such as Windows 3.1 machines with 8M of ram (don't run Java unless you have 16 or so)
You shouldn't run it as root. If it had an exploit someone could do nasty things to your machine.
:)
(Yeah, I go it
I'm running Mozilla 0.7 on a K63-450 with 80M of RAM. The motherboard is an older VX97 chipset model that only supports a 66MHz bus. 0.7 works much better than previous releases did. I actually enjoyed using it last night, which was a first for Mozilla. The slugging performance always kept me using Netscape 4 until now.
I'm running Debian/GNU Linux with Windowmaker as my window manager.
Jeff
Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer.
I went to Dl 0.7 and checked the date: "Mozilla 0.7 - Completed January 9, 2001" then i scroled down and saw: "Mozilla 0.6 - Completed December 6, 2001" Anyone know how to tell them that there date is wrong.. or i realy sleeped in this morning. :)
GPF : The program Win.exe has caused an erorr in
Quick question for the mozilla insiders: Does this release support S/MIME? If not, will that be available anytime soon? (Missing S/MIME support is what forces me to use 4.76...)
Too bad Netscape wouldn't wait a a couple months to have incorparted this.
> If you quit Mozilla the start it again (assuming
> it starts) it's quite fast and.. dare I say it...
> faster than IE5.5 on machine.
This is mostly due to mozilla still being cached by the OS in memory, not because of some option to stay in memory.
nah. IE3 sucked hard too. Even 4.0 wasn't that good. But with 5.0 the gap got a little out of hand.
~
~
~
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:wq
OK, so it's not free software, but neither is Netscape.
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NO CARRIER
I haven't tried this release yet, but am about to. All I want from mozilla is to be able to click the icon, and boom - its open very quickly. I have this from netscape, IE does it, but mozilla never has. Galeon does, but hasn't been as stable for me, i'll check on that later too. When opening new windows, it has to pop up fast. Not TOO much i'm asking for :)
Mike Roberto
- GAIM: MicroBerto
Berto
That version would be 1.0, dammit!
Dancin Santa
I believe that is a bug that has been fixed in the latest nightly builds. It probably just didn't make it into 0.7 which branched about 2 weeks ago.
this release has some weird UI bugs -- like transparencies in strange places (seeing the desktop wallpaper instead of the back button). very weird, and i'm at a loss. this is new bug (for me) -- isn't this project progressing (in usability and memory footprint, for example, not underlying features)?
I'm seeing huge performance increases over NS6. ON both Win and Linux platforms ... some problems but generally an awesome release... Good job Mozilla.org!
There is a mirror at http://www.flyingbuttmonkeys.com/mirrors/ftp.mozil la.org/pub/mozilla/releases/mozilla0.7/
- - - - -
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
In any case, I make more than enough money. I enrich myself every day at work, producing rather non-Free and non-free software which we sell to companies, big and small, for a few hundred thousand dollars a pop, or run as an ASP for several 10s of grands a month.
In short, I spend a lot of time enriching myself. If my business work involves mostly enriching myself, the other people at my company and our VCs, then so be it. When I come home I like to work on projects that enrich all of us in a different community (we humans are very tribalistic by nature, you know). This other community is the community of *nix hackers and users, people who appreciate software as an art and a craft, people who appreciate technical accomplishments on their own merit.
So I don't really see the huge difference here. It's all just a matter of what enriches you and your life, and how you perceive yourself in the tribalistic/social framework.
his argument looks remarkably equivalent to the can't-be-denied argument that suckers people into EST,
The Forum, and other such so-called personal empowerment building organizations. Organizations where
you give a lot of value (usually in money) and help to keep an organization going that often has very little in the
way of visibly paid employees. Why? Because the organization probably couldn't afford to pay the people it
requires to keep itself going--better if a few make the money and the rest happily work for free.
I went to a meeting of The Forum once on an open house night. The conversation with one of their
advocates went something like this:
him: Do you see how you could get value from this?
me: yes
him: So you'll sign up?
me: no
him: But why would you not join something that could bring you value? me: Because i have to weight the
choice against other uses of my time. I get value from all the things I do.
him: You're just trying to be argumentative, aren't you?
me: no, i simply see a choice to be made and i have made my choice.
[they hate that, because they use "choice" as a catch phrase. they want you to believe they offer you choice,
and that only by choosing the choice they offer will you be free. but it seems to me that they intend you to
have no choice but to let them deliver you choice.]
The bottom line is the understanding of "opportunity cost". It sure looks to me like a lot of impressionable
college students are tricked into thinking it's noble to not make money. I know I spent my first few years after
college trying hard not to make money because I
thought money was evil and would somehow corrupt me. But in my old age I've found money to not be so
corrupting as personally empowering. I hate seeing people tricked into thinking that being without money is
personally empowering. I bet if they're honest a lot of contributors of free software have at some later point in
their life looked back and wished they could have even just a decent day's pay, if not a percentage, from the
riches they see others getting off their
contributions. Why should they NOT be compensated?
We in the Lisp community suffer more than anything else with the lack of personal dollars to act on our many
ideas. We sometimes pester companies to do what we wish we could. I don't see how giving away code,
and hence economic empowerment, will make it any easier for us to act on those dreams. I just see us
dying of old age after years of chasing a paycheck.
In the long run, a few Linux companies with a handful of investors will have a lot of money, and a lot of Linux
weenies will be the downtrodden underclass of a new generation because they will have nothing more to
contribute. I see no reason to suppose the world would be worse off if the people making the financial
choices for next generation systems were the people who actually wrote some code rather than others who
merely arrived and took advantage of a ton of free software and offered only packaging.
I don't assert that I have unique insight into how the universe works so I don't spend time trying to talk people
out of doing the open source and free software thing if that's what they feel is their personal calling. I might
be wrong, and I'm inclined to think that on that basis, it might be best for some people who believe differently
to go ahead and chase their dream, but I don't want to be told that my personal opposition to the notion is, for
myself, a wrong choice any more than they want to be told their choices are wrong. Choices should be made
with one's eyes open, though, and no one should assume I'm going to respect them more for having given
away value. I'm not. I'm going to respect them more if they build something important for the world, by
whatever means. But whether they got paid for it or not is not going to affect that respect. So they shouldn't
feel guilty about getting paid, and they shouldn't give me grief if I want to get paid.
...or i've been told
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Every program has bugs and crashes. I run the daily builds of Mozilla and the CVS version of Konqueror. You know what? Konqueror crashes just as much as Mozilla, and don't even try to pretend it doesn't. Not to mention Konqueror has nowhere near the capabilities of Mozilla.
Just a few things Mozilla has that Konqueror doesn't:
1. Embedded Java *in* the page( apparently this is a limitation of KDE itself or so I'm told by Konqueror developers ). Not to mention that Konqueror crawls when you use it.
2. VERY limited DOM support( face it, Konqueror DOM support really sucks.. for now )
3. Slows to a crawl when lots of animated gifs are on the page and/or when a plugin is heavily in use.
4. Limited to 5 threads( there needs to be an option to change that )
5. Must have that *Stupid* DCOP server! While not a complete memory hog, it's annoying for those who *don't* use KDE. As a result Mozilla actually starts up *faster* than Konqueror on a fresh start.
.. and if you want me to keep going I can prolly find more.
But you know what? Mozilla is *still* a second to Konqueror when I'm browsing the web. This is because of memory usage, and speed once the app is started( and the pages I go to, Konqueror usually does okay ).
But I have Mozilla waiting in the wings when Konqueror dies( and it does.. *alot* ). And Mozilla works when I use it on URLs that Konqueror dies misably on( and I've had Konqueror take X with it ).
So before you start saying stuff is horse shit you should probably look at the product your defending. While Konqueror is great, in my book there is a lot of trouble when trying to compare it to Mozilla.
Posted from Konqueror 1.9.8( CVS 20010106 )
Apart from Konquorer - who the gnome zealots won't use - Mozilla is the only mainstream browser out there for Gnu/Linux users. How many times have you gone to a page only to be turned away because your browser "isn't supported by this website"? Mozilla - being a semi-offical netscape project, will actually have people and companies making scripted sites that will work properly with mozilla. One way that redmond has been trying to keep people away from linux is by not releasing IE for linux - it ensures that some web sites simply won't display on linux.
The point is this: Mozilla stands to be a real mainstream browser. Don't knock it before it gets a decent chance.
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Desperation is a stinky cologne
Where has the SVG and MathML support that were available in some earlier builds gone? From what I understand, they won't be in the 1.0 release, so maybe they were removed. But it sucks having to use an old build to play with this functionality.
mozilla is looking for contributions of bulds on platforms other than linux, mac and win32. See http://mozilla.org/build/distribution.html
for info on how to contribute builds to mozilla.org.
--Asa
HP/UX is not a fringe operating system, Mozilla supporter.
about 27 megs memory footprint while browsing normally. hmm, that's probably in line with what IE does, if you think about it...
I've been using it for a bit, looks like an actual alternative to IE5.. (netscrape hasn't done it for me since 3.x)...
You don't need year 2000 compliance any more. It's 2001 now.
IE5 runs on WIndows 3.1 with 8MB RAM????? I'll just pretend I didn't hear it mmmkay? :)
No, it's abbreviated ISA because it's Internet Security and Acceleration Server, dumbass.
In a network transparent window system, you simply cannot guarantee timely redraws. And even local applications cannot do so. Not allowing the server to clear damaged areas often results in visually very confusing displays. Even if clearing did cause some unnecessary flashing (which it doesn't), disabling it would still be a bad tradeoff from a usability point of view. Mozilla is just broken in that regard, as is Qt. Microsoft Windows also gets this wrong, although it is less critical on Windows. Gtk and Tcl/Tk seem to do it right.
If you really want to avoid flashing, turn on backing store. That's what it is there for. But you have to decide whether the cost is worth it for your application. For Mozilla, it's unnecessary.
Does slrn support NNTPS and authentication? And no, I won't be running local stunnels.. (besides, I use trn anyways when browsing live spools :p )
(Netscape supports NNTPS and authentication OK, M$ supports them in a shite way (try using a self-signed cert with the M$ newsreader sometime.. tedious!))
Your Working Boy,
If it was my decision then that's exactly what I would do. But the guys who administer such things say that using NTLM is the best way (they're M$ brainwashed types) so there's nothing I can do... sadly!
If you check it out, you will find that the www site and the ftp site are different boxes.
Different IP Addresses don't necessarily mean different boxen.
Pages rendered by IE and mozilla look almost identical, Mozilla has a slight edge in that it's css support covers things like borders for input tags and other arcana.
Quite simply, both konqueror and opera blow - just blow - by comparison. No competition at all.
--
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Eat right, exercise regularly, die anyway.
I often like to go back and look around somewhere that I've just been, but I don't want to lose what I'm currently do, with all it's history.
Yeah stability has gotten much better over the last few weeks. It has been very unstable on dual processor machines for a long time (with spurts of stability). Lately, I can sometimes go a couple of days without it crashing.
There something you whiney types should realize about Mozilla being 'big' and 'slow.' I shouldn't have to remind you that this software is still a beta! Hence it's still being worked on, hence there's a helluva lot of debugging code that's working behind the scenes. Taking that into account, heck yeah, it's going to be 'big' and 'slow.'
I see people posting negative comments. However, I was very impressed myself with the last release. It is January 10th 2001, and I have had it running as my only browser process since 2000 (ps aux doesn't give the exact dates for last years processes). I don't understand some of the comments. If a page doesn't follow standards and is designed for IE5 only, its not worth my while if it doesn't render correctly on my platform. It's their loss. With that said, I have never noticed any problems yet. I also use the mail and news for reading news.groupstudy.com. It works fine, never has crashed, however periodically it gets damn slow and I hear my hard drive thrashing like crazy. But then it stops. Anyway, I'd like to reiterate my thanks and appreciation for this project.
(Im running on a P166, 64megs Ram, Redhat 6.2)
I got this strange problem with XFree 4.0.2 though, my mouse pointer doesn't redraw correctly when the image below it changes.
As a sidenote, it's extremely difficult to slashdot Netscape's servers. They have immense capacity compared to most sites Slashdot links to. My connection speed to Komodo is twice as fast as to any other site and six times faster than to an average server (600 KBps opposed to 100 for most sites).
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Grr. Its voila, not viola, voila..
Apart from that, I agree 100%. This is the best, most useful piece of desktop software for the average linux user bar none. It is very discouraging to see all this mozilla bashing.
Mozilla is the _only_ hope Linux (unix) has for a conforming browser. I am sorry, but both Konqueror and Opera make a mess of all the emerging markup technologies, rendering the crappiest looking pages I have seen with the definite exception of NN 4.7,
I will say that mozilla runs a helluva lot better on w2k and marginally better on sgi and solaris than it does on linux. Linux definitely has issues with non linux-threads. Nevertheless, I keep several mozilla windows open, 24 hours a day, for days on end without a crash on Linux. Nor do I ever touch swap despite running simultaneous instances of gimp, emacs, multiple xterms compiling, editing and debugging as well as the usual assortment of servers and then some.
While its not 100% there, its a darn sight better than NN 4.7 which, I remind everyone, is a dead product.
0.6 was on it's way to becoming my primary browser until some bugs in the history code reared their ugly head. First, clicking on a link sometimes did *weird* things. (It would try to load the right page on the wrong server.
It's things like this that I'm sure are a major pain in the ass for the Mozilla developers, but once their ironed out, it should turn out to be a really nice browser.
In short...get the nightlies and use the heck out of them...that's the only way that we're going to get all the bugs found and fixed.
I also have to say congrats to mozilla on picking up the release schedule. I remember people whining about how long it took for new milestones to come out, but now things really are progressing nicely. Good job!
"You will only be remembered for two things: the problems you solve or the ones you create." Mike Murdock
I've been playing around with nightly builds for the last few months and have been pretty impressed -- anyone still using Netscape 4.x should definitely upgrade.
For anyone interested in the nightly builds, Mozillazine publishes a page with nightly build comments so you can find out if there are any showstoppers -- http://www.mozillazine.org/build_comments/. This is also a good way to help out in the testing process, obviously...
JAMWiki Java-based Wiki engine
Its kinda obvious you need write permission to, umm, write stuff also install documentation (/notes) often try to cover all the bases, just in case you forgot something.. Lets not post a slashdot comment everytime a manual reads that the plug needs to be plugged in for an appliance. Specialy since microwave manuals in the US still state its not a good thing to try to dry pets in the appliance
-- Chris Chabot
"I dont suffer from insanity, i enjoy every minute of it!"
I did pay for my RAM. Just expecting it would be efficiently utilised. And you paid for your PC - why don't install DOS - it would put it to use too.
oh, and one other thing. our build machines never sit idle. we produce builds every day. check them out at ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla/nightly
well, in NS4.x you do this with CTRL+H (might work in mozilla?). IE isn't the only browser with this feature.
in addition to the disk caches, it uses a memory cache like NS4.x does. So if you've been browsing for a half an hour, then go back to a blank webpage, your memory usage will go down, but won't drop back to the level it was at before. You paid for that RAM right? It might as well be used for something.
Imagine even the simplest display, some black text on a white background. In your case the server automatically clears exposed areas to white.
Take a sample pixel that lies inside a black letter. It will initially have the old window's contents. When exposed the server changes it to white. When drawn the server changes it to black. That is 2 transitions.
Now imagine the program is super-efficient at drawing (or that it copies the data from a backing store, as you suggest), so that it only draws each pixel once. Then initially that pixel will have the old window's contents. When drawn it will turn black. This is 1 transition, the minimum possible.
Now you can argue that nobody draws their data like that, and any reasonable program will result in 2 blinks anyway, but the fact remains that if the server clears it, it is impossible to avoid the 2 blinks.
I also argue that simple application will erase the background even if the server did. This will result in 3 writes to the pixel, even if two of them are the same white color. This is not cheap, 1000 pixels does take some machine time and it is worth it to save one pass.
Also, even if the program blinks I think it is less objectionable since it will draw the two images right next to each other in time. If the server erases it there could be a quite long time where the display is showing the cleared area, making the blink much more visible.
Backing store like the NeXT had is nice (and it can be faked on X by mapping a single large pixmap as the background for the window). In fact I believe it is the only solution that allows the server to decide what to do with exposed area. But unfortunately most modern hardware does not allow hardware accelerated graphics to be used there, defeating most of the advantages.
> Does slrn support NNTPS and authentication?
;)
> And no, I won't be running local stunnels..
Apart from missing the point (I knew I shouldve written "newsreaders") youre probably right
Actually, it's voilà...
Just wanted to post a pedantic comment.
Stéphane
Instant Karma's gonna get you, Gonna knock you right on the head (John Lennon, 1970)
Try exmh. You may be surprised.
Moderators: the following post is not a Moz bashing, so don't score down on basis of the first few lines only
I am sorry, but both Konqueror and Opera make a mess of all the emerging markup technologies, rendering the crappiest looking pages I have seen with the definite exception of NN 4.7,
Can't talk for Konqueror, but Opera certainly does not make a mess of renderings. It's so far the only browser I've found that has a somewhat predictable rendering with respect to css2, with IE5.5 and Mozilla in a tied second place.[1]
One note about Opera though: it's not very forgiving when sloppy, or even invalid markup is used. Which it, for my purposes, should'nt be.
Besides: on Linux, if your system is aware of, and you have TrueType fonts installed, pages are going to look a lot better, since most of the authors that specify fonts do it with typical windows fonts in mind
.Resource hog
My biggest objection to Mozilla, however does not lie in faults with the rendering engine, since that's fairly decent. It is the bloat factor of the product. The specs demands a P233MMX, and 64 MB of mem. Sure most people today have the hardware to run that, but it also means that it will slow your system down, when it's running. I did some tests (in Win2k), indicating that Mozilla, showing only the about: blank used 18,6 MB of physical memory. Opera only used about 4 (this was for O4.03. I'm not going to do a great deal of speculation as to why, only conclude that it's big, bad, and far away into IE-bloat land.
[1] I haven't had a proper chance to run 0.7 through my testbed yet, but 0.6 messed up the inheritance of positioned layers, and basically forced me to redo most of the markup template I was working on, if it was to render properly.
http://virtuelvis.com/
If you mean psm instead of pam, yes. Drop by #mozillazine on irc.mozilla.org and ask for help if you need it...
right here.
Chris Blizzard rocks. He builds (almost) daily Mozilla rpms for Redhat 6 and 7. At the above link you will find:
All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream.
Actually, that's just some of what's new. That list highlights some of the features that users are likely to notice right off. For a more comprehensive list you might try a bugzilla query something like the 1500 or so bugs fixed since around Mozilla 0.6 It's not a perfect query since a few of those were in M18 and not in 0.6 and vise versa but you get the picture. --Asa
It's all there....
big they didn't upgrade the file size...
Or @ least for the win32 downloads.
--=.=-- www.cyber2000.qc.ca
This is the first Mozilla beta version that can successfully check my hotmail without crashing!
Contratulations!
Well, I'm using 0.7 right now to post this, and after tooling around with it for a bit, I can finally say that it's finally an acceptable browser. Speed seems greatly improved since the last milestone, it "feels" a lot more stable, and a lot of the annoying bugs that hampered previous use of it are finally ironed out. Congratulations to the Mozilla team.
;)
WARNING: This opinion is subject to quick and radical change the first time it crashes.
NO CARRIER
I second this - with one caveat. There is an outstanding bug with flash plugins ( a href=http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6 3243>63243 ) that appears to have been fixed in 0.7, but not in this weeks nightlies.
The linux kernel "jumping" from 1.x to 2.0 is the same as Windows 2.x jumping to 3.0. You don't need all the x:es between 1 and 9 in 2.x to go to 3.0. Going to 3.0 means (should mean) you made a major leap. Skipping version (MS Word 2 -> 5, NS 4 -> 6) is a completely different thing. It's is marketshare hunting.
Buceta, o ./ filtrou esta porra.......lá vai de novo.
Meeeeeennnngggoooooooooooooooo!!!!!
Bush-a no cú deles.
Broken Hearts are for Assholes. - Frank Zappa
...well, I've got the latest build (as of about 4 hours ago) and it's still not working... I guess I'll have to continue to boot VMWare/W2K just to use IE still until it's fixed. :-(
I would really like to use Mozilla already, but it just is too damn slow to use yet. I think they should focus the next release on speed of usability for people to really start using this and discover more bugs. The menus come crawling down, and everything is just sluggish on a P200MMX/64MB Linux 2.4.0. Still using Netscape 4.7x because you can actually use it.
Of course, text mode browsers like lynx and links are better, but nowadays multimedia comes before content too often, and you need javascript/flash/whatever to get the information you want. That just sucks. Damn uusmediapellet content-creating webmonkeys with the cool clothes and funky hairstyles.
GeoKone.NET
> What is this new protocol I never heard about??
It's just the MS version of the standard protocols. MS always inserts incompatibilites, er extensions into thier implementations in order to lock in thier clients. This is where we get MS-HTML, MS-Cerberos, etc etc.
ASCI silly question, get a stupid ANSI.
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
The only reason I cannot use mozilla for mail is they removed, like a pack of idiots, the "next" button from the message window. Communicator has this, why'd they take it out?
Stupidly enough, the "next" button is there in the main window (where it is redundant, if you're reading your mail in that double-pane view you don't need a "next message" button you just click on the message you want to read). If you're viewing the message in a separate window, there's no "next" button and no "next message" command. Even worse, if you ddouble click in the message list, it open a new window instead of using the previous on, and no option to "keep messages in same window" like 4.x has.
It's also slow as fuck.
Otherwise it a nice mail and news client.
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Can something be done to have the lowered? I find it ridiculuos to have 20MB+ gone when @ about:blank. Are there some tips and tricks to manage this? RAM isn't such a big issue nowadays but such a resource drain should be better justified.
But that's the point--it's a perpetual beta! With every cycle, it gets bigger, more feature-laden, and slower; without ever getting closer to release. If feature development was stopped right now, and they did nothing but fix all of the bugs in it, then it would be a big and slow release product.
In other words, it's not getting any faster, any smaller, or any closer to completion. It's just getting bigger and slower.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Please, give me a break! Thats what slrn is for.
The fact they are different computers doesn't change the fact that they probably use the same bandwidth.
Have to disagree with you, running on windows is fine, its the first mozilla netscape release that I have ever had that was able to draw my compants intranet properly, the only one previsouly was Opera. How good is your Spec?
If you check it out, you will find that the www site and the ftp site are different boxes. So linking to the www mirror page will not effect the ftp server
Official name: komodo.mozilla.org
(Aliases: ftp.mozilla.org)
Addresses: 207.200.81.212
Official name: gila.mozilla.org
(Aliases: www.mozilla.org)
Addresses: 207.200.81.215
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Now what on earth is a Microsoft Proxy Server? I've heard of HTTP proxies, SOCKS proxies, but Microsoft? What is this new protocol I never heard about??
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free the mallocs!
There is also a newly updated RoadMap that includes possible dates for V1.0 before this Summer.
And I noticed one sort of odd thing: it hasn't crashed yet on me. When I started trying Mozilla the thing blew up all the time; now I feel completely comfortable with the idea of Mozilla as my primary browser, particularly with the integrated (and free!) crypto.
The only edge Konqueror has over Mozilla now, in my opinion, is being based on QT - which is the only toolkit so far that's been patched to use the excellent Xft library for antialiased fonts under XFree86 4.0.2 and later. I can't wait for Mozilla to pick up support for this thing.
and obviously editing text in forms is as liable to human error as always
Sigh - the corrected url is:this one
The mighty mozilla logo in the upper right has been replaced with the Netscape N. Why?
Unlike Netscape 4 and IE 5, which are both bug free. ;p
However, it's got enough functionality now to make it a secondary browser.
I've been using the Dec 6th nightly (on Linux) as my primary browser since it came out and it sure beats Netscape 4. Pretty soon the Mozilla team is going to need to add an "uptime" menu to the browser so we can all brag about how long it's been since we "rebooted" our browsers. That's the main thing which is going to delay my upgrading to 0.7 (I have state in several open Mozilla windows that I don't want to lose).
Seriously - if you're still using Netscape 4, you might want to give Mozilla 0.7 a shot. Each milestone has been an enormous leap in quality over the previous and I can't wait to give 0.7 a try. Unless it's worse than the Dec 6th build (unlikely), it's a keeper.
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Free P2P Backup, Windows & Linux
I know that this has been posted before, but here it is again...I love mozilla html rendering. I can't believe how fast it loads Linuxtelephony.org
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Whats wrong with that?
Excellent! Modded down before I was modded up! I'm so proud!
Anyways...
IE won. Won, as in, controls well over 90% of the desktop market. If ALL of the non-Windows operating systems out there ever amount to more than 10% of the _desktop_ environment, then MS will release IE for (whatever). Mark my words--IE6 or IE7 will be released for Linux if it keeps growing on the desktop like it has for the past few months.
As far as embedded devices running Mozilla, I still disagree. No company will embed it, if it's big, slow, buggy, and unreliable.
Mozilla has lost its momentum, and its focus. It can't be compared to Linux, because Linux is a centralised, focused effort, and is not allowed to drift off course.
I still say that Mozilla never was and never will be a contender as a browser for anyone other than the hardcore diletantes, and a very few very specialised applications. Hell, look at OS/2--at least it was a good product, and it still didn't get any farther than that.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
i have a question, has anyone buildt mozilla from source and got pam working?
nmarshall
The law is that which it boldly asserted and plausibly maintained..
nmarshall
The law is that which it boldly asserted and plausibly maintained..
--Colonel Burr 1783
No, that's not the same. I want to be able to go back through windows with same state... forms filled out the same, same position that I had got to on the page, etc Using the history window is a nowhere near as easy or elegant. In facy, even when I was a big time advocate of Netscape, I never really liked its history window.
Count me out of the "bash mozilla" crowd, cross platform, standards compliant, stable, fast, accurate and has been for a long time. I like it, in fact I like it a lot.
I have used ie and without doubt mozilla kicks butt. On a standard compusa consumer ms machine (64meg ram) using ie feels like your drowning in mud and while I understand that it may run better with a gig of ram it really doesn't matter to me as it doesn't run on my preferred platform.
Cheers to the Mozilla team.
Man, it's hard to believe that they have had this locked up for a year.. They must have done a lot of testing!
-- these are only opinions and they might not be mine.
How much RAM do you have, so that you have "enough of it" and never hit swap? :)
Check it out this has been out for a year! and we never knew!
James
---> Snip Snip ---
Athlon 650 w/ 128mb ram. I don't think it is unresonable to expect mozilla to run well on this spec. I have run pre compiled binaries, self compiled optimized binaries.
GiraffeSville, a place anyone can call home
Most importantly, though, why does Mozilla still insist on changing X11 screen redraw semantics? By default, damaged areas of X11 windows get cleared. Mozilla insists on leaving the damage, leading to very confusing screen displays with parts of one window ghosted in another. Can't this be fixed? Why deviate from the X11 convention in the first place? Windows gets this wrong, and X11 just gets it right.
If you're into beta testing software at all - get it. If not, wait a month, then get the current release.
Regardless of what anyone says, I'm going to make a prediction that Mozilla will come to solve many of the picky little things in HTML and will be the first to render HTML 4.0 bug-free. The fact that Netscape has a hand in it will also be good - it will be supported by major sites because the Netscape coding for all those weird website quirks will also be in there.
CAP THAT KARMA!
Moderators: -1, nested, oldest first!
SIG: HUP
We do not guarantee that any source code or executable code available from the mozilla.org domain is Year 2000 compliant.
Drat. I guess I should stop working on my mod_timetravel module for Apache, since it's not going to work with Mozilla.
NO CARRIER
seen some comments about it and i have to agree: this thing from netscape is not the browser we've dreamt of for Linux. ;-)).
Mozilla is an example of "too much code design kills the project".
Yeah, it's great, it has lotta objects calling lotta others and so on. as a drawback, it's very very slow, and they'll never manage to have a stable product.
In fact, the only thing that is quite good in Mozilla project is Gecko. It is a quite fast and powerful layout engine.
The worst idea is having a theme managment and object model OVER GTK+.It's useless (GTK+ IS skinnable), and damn slow.
And for Mail and NNTP, it's simply crap. crashes often, looses messages in mail and so on. BTW, there's no good X Mailer for Linux (PINE is console, remember
So i'm waiting for Nautilus, Evolution and new versions of Konqueror and KMail (not to talk about IE)... Maybe at the end Linux, the OS the most adapted to the Internet, will have powerful Internet end-user tools.
This is the first version of Mozilla (including that NS6.0 bullshit) that will render my personal link page correctly (or at all actually). Compared to 0.6 it's great, I'm really satisified.
Lets see how it goes after I put it through it's paces, maybe I'll finally be able to change...
I wish.
jedrek
-- polish ccs mirror
it would be 6.1
My blog
Christ, Bill. Get a grip. What about Galeon? Konqueror? Lynx? Netscape 4.X? Mozilla? Opera? Maybe there are no other browsers out there for *you* but there are plenty of choices. Plenty of good choices. And the great thing about linux is that you *can* run MSIE on top of wine. At least last time I checked the database...
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(Celeron 566, 128MB RAM, everything else vanilla)
-- Eat your greens or I'll hit you!
-- Eat your greens or I'll hit you!
One of the features that I really like in IE is window cloning. If I hit Ctrl+N for a new window, the window comes up identical to the current, same history and all.
I know, I know, I shouldn't feed the trolls...
The only way Internet Explorer can "win", whatever that means, is if they release a Linux version.
And that isn't going to happen. I agree that IE has won on Windows. So what? What about the embedded market? What about Linux users? You think that Linux users are going to be happy using Netscape 3 forever?
And you are wrong that Mozilla will not be used. Even if the browser never becomes popular, the Gecko rendering engine will be. A lightweight, fast browser that uses that engine would be much faster and easier to write than a new browser from scratch.
Many embedded devices like the TiVo run Linux. Many of them will eventually have web browsers on them. Many of those will be based on Mozilla, for some of the same reasons they are based on Linux.
Failed utterly? Get real.
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
"HTML needs a rant tag" - Alan Cox
Java support being about the only thing keeping me using NS4.x. . .
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
but just in case, for those who do not go there often, dozens of mirrors are listed here:
http://www.mozilla.org/mirrors.html
I am really looking forward to this, because NS and moz0.6 have been just a little bit problematic for me. Little things, like go to page x then open a new window go to page y, and it thinks it is still on page x. Infuriating, but what can I say.
I have great hopes for this.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
For example, if I have some 3/4 pipe fittings and a pipe that won't fit into them (it is 3/4 and a bit or had a burr or is slightly out of shape), we would say "Oh, that's the microsoft pipe, use the other one"
Or someone has a sweater that is nice and warm and soft but when they put it on, it brings them out in a rash, that's a microsoft sweater.
Rich
Release notes are here. FWIW, though, I still prefer the daily builds :).
Alex Bischoff
---
Alex Bischoff
HTML/CSS coder for hire
Here's the rest of what's new:
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I am a huge supporter of Mozilla. It is my regular browser. I do have one wish for the more recent releases, though: Continue releasing binaries for alternate architectures. For the releases before 0.6 (all the Mxx releases), they pu up binaries for PPC, alpha and SPARC. They also released binaries for OS/2, HPUX and other more fringe oses. These weren't released at the same time as the Linux x86 and Windows binaries, but they were released. I know that I can compile it on my own machine (LinuxPPC), but their build host sits idle now instead of building other binaries. Just my thoughts, though.
--neutrino
History has the relation to truth that theology has to religion-i.e. none to speak of. - Lazarus Long
I've tried several Moz milestones, and this is the one that might allow me to torch Netscape from my hard drive (I'm posting this from 0.7 now). M12 was a good demo, but unusable. M16 showed promise, but was frustrating. M18 refused to install. I just downloaded 0.7 and love it. It's a little slow on my lowly P200/96MB, but I can live with it.
Go Mozilla!!!
-- Liquor up front, poker in the rear.
I'm sorry mister COMPETANT USER, i must not be very competant since i managed to crash Win2k the 10 first times i tried it. I just seemed to be too fast for the machine, its access time to the local network was pitifully long compared to the speed of the network on ME. And it's been advertised that it's great for networking ? Then blame my local network that worked way better with Windows ME and SuSE 7. Or maybe do i have to bow before Micro$oft and invest in a more recent local network just to fit Win2k's ENORMOUS need of memory (512 Mb, dual P3 700 procs, and it's still slow), just like i've spent hours on the net to download newest drivers. Back to Mozilla topic, i can just praise the people who are doing it like it's being done: free, open-source, cross-platform. And i don't care with the possible bugs, because when Mozilla bugs, it doesn't bring me to restart Windows... And on a last note, i find it a bit bold to reply "use win2k and ie 5.5 !", because i wouldn't change my ways and change my OS just to be able to browse some POORLY designed websites. (hell, i've seen even business sites without tags)
I mean, without tags.
if not, then right-click the link and view in a new window
Sorry, you don't have permission to right-click.
Like Tetris? Like drugs? Ever try combining them?
Will I retire or break 10K?
From the Compatibility Information:
If you are using an ATI Rage video card, images are correctly displayed initially, but may not be properly re-drawn when you minimize and maximize or resize the window.
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