Slashdot Mirror
Best Device For Gesture Based Input?
jotaeleemeese writes: "A few days ago there was a discussion about gesture navigation in the Opera browser, that prompted my to buy Black & White, download Opera and get the evaluation version of Sensiva. Being a trackball user, I found gesture navigation too cubersome, I found a mouse not much better either. Then I thought a pen based device or a touchpad could be ideal for this kind of input, but before investing my hard cash buying something, I would like opinions from /.ers that have already tried something with these or other programs using gesture recognition and what the results have been."
What about brain gestures from this device?
http://www.IBVA.com
Having a gesture-sensitive glove would make it fairly difficult to type, I would think.
::Kinda of off topic:: I, myself, have been a user and teacher of Alias|Wavefront's 3D applications for a few years now, and really like their user interfaces. Particulary their interface for Maya. It has a slightly larger learning curve than a web browser, and once you got it you can fly through the application (after eight hours though, I start looking for the spacebar/right-click context sensitive menus in other applications > especially netscape and photoshop). Seeing as how I'm an animator, I'm always looking at what other packages offer. I remember playing with Blender (free 3D app for Linux, BeOS, or Windows) for a while. It had gestures, and that was years ago. I think I remember the gestures being fairly useful, but I don't remember much more. Someone should comment on how wonderful or horrible they are. -Me
I too have been using Opera religously since finding the gesture based navigation. Have everyone that works within 20' of me hooked as well.
I tried Sensiva, and did find that to be a pain in the rear. It will be interesting to see if gestures can be well implemented accross more than just one application.
Try PS2Rate. Its a little program that allows you to manually set the sampling rate for your mouse.
Quantel (UK mfg. of very high end broadcast paint and compositing systems) has been using gestural input on their devices for years....the pen gestures work great for oft repeated tasks. On a paint system where most of your work is done with a pen anyway it makes a lot of sense.....but if most of your input is through the keyboard it can be very annoying to have to switch constantly from pen to keyboard. If you do get a pen go for a large tablet ......
the closer the tablet size is to the size of your screen the easier it is for you to coordinate your pen movement to what you see on the screen.
As opposed to actually typing...
I use the Wacom Graphire tablet, and I have been for several months now, and I love it. I have used the Sensiva software a little that came with it, but this did get a bit cumbersome, mainly because I didn't take the time to learn it properly (same reason I haven't got a Palm yet, as simple as the new input method is (I know it only takes a minute ir two) I just know I won't take the time to learn it). I'm sure there are people out there who love it, but I cannot see myself (or anyone, really) using it with a mouse. I recommend a pen tablet if anything, and the Graphire works great in Win98. I just upgraded to RH 7.1 and finally it works with too, but it is not as configurable, and I can't get it how I had it in the Windows set-up.
The other thing with the Graphire is that you get a cool cordless mouse to go with it, of which I have only one complaint. It wasn't designed to be able to click either of the outside buttons while rolling the wheel in the middle. I'm thinking about doing some reconstructive surgery with a craft knife so that pushing a button doesn't push down on the wheel and stop it from turning!
It will let you enter the precise x-y-z coordinates of your gesture.
I'm playing B&W with a Wacom Intuos tablet/pen combo. Casting miracles/spells with the pen in midair (over the pad) is the like waving a magic wand. It is so cool.
Frankly, though, I think gesture based interfaces are overrated.
That was fun for a while until my hand wouldn't fit into it anymore.
If you're looking for a fully gesture-based input system, you may be interested in the KeyBowl, a no-key no-wrist-movement "keyboard". Contrary to what the pictures might imply, the two domes don't rotate. Rather, letters are formed by sliding the domes while keeping the wrists straight.
I don't own one of these (I have a Kinesis Contoured keyboard, which I'm very pleased with), but I'd be half-tempted to buy a KeyBowl if they weren't almost $400 (%$#!).
Alex Bischoff
---
Alex Bischoff
HTML/CSS coder for hire
I don't know what a "gesture-based menu" is, but I was using the gesture (stroke) interface of Mentor Graphics (circuit/system CAD) package back in '93. I'm sure it existed even before then.
The nice thing about Mentor is that you can do things in many different ways: menus, keystrokes, gestures, scripts and so forth. It's flexible without being cumbersome. Really, it's probably the best computer user experience I've ever had.
This was with a mouse, BTW, which seemed perfectly natural to me. The middle button initiated a stroke, but I think this was configurable.
--
One thing I noticed about Black and White is that if your input device has very low resolution (say your comptuer is overtaxed and only servicing interrupts every 100ms or so), then the gesture based input can be a real pain, but when I'm on a fast enough machine (with a good precision mouse) the gestures are easy to preform. The problem with slow input is that when you go around a curve, the mouse may only register at two or three points along the curve, and your software will interpolate that into a straight line between those points. If what you are trying to draw is curved, then there is a good chance the recognition software will get it wrong.
Down that path lies madness. On the other hand, the road to hell is paved with melting snowballs.
I read the internet for the articles.
Right click the application while holding shift. Choose "Run as...", enter the user you want it to run as (administrator in this case), enter password. *Presto*.
Wow - that *does* look cool...
Now...any chance the pad/touchscreen works in any other OS than Windows? If it did, I'd consider buying one - unfortunately I doubt that's the case.
** keying email to IBM sales **
I recently download Opera 5.11 in all of it's gesture glory.
;)
I must say that I'm really impressed and don't find it difficult at all to use the mouse. It took me a day I'd say to get the perfect feel so that I do the correct gesture with the minimal effort required.
I think people who don't like mice aren't going to like using the mouse... for gestures or otherwise. So listen up to anyone that was swayed by the article author -- the mouse works fine... just give it a shot.
And of course a pen will work wonders too. I have one but most people don't (should change, they're awesome!) but I think a glove would let us express the most gestures... heh heh no puns.
I don't know.. maybe I'm just a post 8 bit nes, power glove dreaming child stuck in this adult body.
Later
Use the Z-modem protocol between Information Superhighway routers to compress the plaintext. ~LordOfYourPants
Me, too.
Only problem is when I move the mouse to do something, and then change my mind and move it somewhere else... and end up closing the window. Pisses me off every time. I'm developing the habit of "squiggling" when I change my mind...!
--
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Try setting your monitors color depth and resolution to the one you use in game. I couldn't get my B&W to work on Win2000 until I changed the resolution manually.
Hope that helps,
~Squiggle
Complexity Happens
Very few topics get me started. Here's one. The glove showed that people would be willing to use new and different interfaces, blindly. Hence, the creation of lightpens, 4d mice, and other devices. The important aspect of the glove was not way it was used or it's shortcomings, but the fact that it provided an altogether new set of inputs. The reason it was unpopular (and gloves continue to be) is because you expect to lose a comfortable and efficient interface to the glove. The glove which comes out with a gesture to activate/deactivate the glove quickly (be it touching your forefinger to your thumb or a button on a keyboard) will garner signifigant shelf-space at Fry's. If it wasnt blatantly apparent by now, console platforms perform well in the market based on two simple factors that have nothing to do with the games or technology (in 90% of the cases). The number of buttons and design of the controller. These are essentially the concepts I am examining. There is no reason you would need to move your hands/arms in some theoretical 3d shape, that could not be represented by a combination of inputs includng a 2d gesture and button or approxiamte physical location (the upper right corner). If you had a system that had so many commands that you had to include 3d gestures (since you ran out of 2d gestures or button combinations), everyone can realize that the user wouldnt be able to comfortably remember it all anyways. A scenario that is a little more realistic, is a glove/set_of_gloves that you wear while your hands rest above a desk. The key is not which interface is the best, but which is the best way to switch between them.
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
I like that, a lot like the interface in William Gibson's "Idoru", basically glasses and gloves that plug into your belt CPU with 3d GUI environment that the gloves are used to manipulate, THAT is where I would like to see wearable PC's head.
You say you want a revolution....
I think something like the old Nintendo power glove would be great, hit a button, gesture, hit a button to confirm, all of it fingertip controlled. Either that, or a touchpad/screen. What would be more natural for gesture based control than touching the screen and making the gesture?
You say you want a revolution....
The gesturing feature in B&W is very cool, IMHO. I haven't tried it with a trackball, but I've seen it work with a mouse and pretty well with a touchpad.
;-)
I was fascinated by the gestural interface on the shuttles in Earth: Final Conflict. In many ways it seems to be a very intuitive and natural way to control things. It would be interesting to have a gesture recognition device that would allow us to use our actual hand (or hands) to make gestures without cumbersome things like gloves. It would, of course, have additional advantages: people who know sign language could even use a sophisticated system to type.
In the meantime, I'll settle for the traditional way of giving people the finger.
I'm all for touching one button instead of moving my arm around in unintuitive motions that just increase RSI risks.
There's a large possibility that I just have issues with writing... my handwriting is horrid, so I can imagine what it looks like in the game... I think I may be curving some motions without realizing it too because I keep drawing the gestures quite large on the 12x9 tablet, maybe I should try something a bit smaller. Have you found a way to disable the tip? I find that gliding over the tablet makes me make mistakes that touching the tablet would not (namely slipping and hitting the tip against it)
I have a Wacom tablet (12x9) for drawing purposes, I figured this would work nicely for doing gesture based motion in B&W... bah... it's worthless for that... I've found that Black & White either has something in it to stop perfect motion from counting (so you can't use pentablets) or I'm a worse pen-writer than I thought... I mean, a giant "R" should work no matter what, and it's not hard to make a spiral. Basically, I stick with the Trackman Marble. It works. (oh, and the funky Wacom "4D" mouse doesn't help either.... wonder if I could configure it's thumbwheel to do nifty easy zooming for me though... hmm)
-Laz
The idea is that the human brain isn't good at discerning differences between short distances, such as "Move the mouse pointer to the menu bar, click within a .5 inch box, scroll down 2.5 inches to the appropriate menu item and release", however it's quite good at producing and remembering changes in directions. So, for instance, File|Save would be "Up, Left".
With just two gestures, it's possible to represent over 48 different actions. Add a third gesture, and that number goes to 288. Their research showed that their average subject had no problem remembering four levels deep!
Gesture interfaces are especially useful as a user-interface for blind people, where it's just not possible to choose items from a menu visually.
The cool thing is that gesture-based menus have been part of the Alias|Wavefront products since 1996.
-James
In my experience, many games need to be run as administrator in order to run in Win2K. This may be your problem.
Since there's no real way to run things in "su" in windows, you can use a nice little trick to make it work - rename the executable "setup.exe", and then it will ask you if you want to run it as administrator.
So. I renamed the B&W executable, and now it asks me for the admin password when I want to run it, and it works fine.
--
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
I gesture at my computer constantly. It doesn't increase my productivity or improve my computing, but it does make me feel a whole lot better....
For surfing p()orn sites and playing Tomb Raider, I have found that a life-size inflatable doll makes the best gesture-based "input" device.
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
I am surprised that I haven't seen anyone suggest the idea that, although this would be a fantastic breakthrough for limited use, we're stepping back not moving forward. What prompted the idea for me was the concept that with only two gestures it's possible to represent over 48 different actions. Don't get me wrong, let me preface by saying that I believe strongly that evolution is a good thing, but are we trying to do away with the keyboard or what? I have watched users very closely over the past 10 years. What I have been very disappointed to notice is people's increased dependance on the mouse. When I was a regular Windows user I would push my mouse off to the side once a month and navigate entirely with the keyboard. You'd be amazed at how quickly you learn keyboard shortcuts you didn't even know existed. I'm not saying that I was more productive that day... far from it... but I *was* more productive the other days as I didn't need to keep reaching for my mouse to perform common tasks. Today I watch people use their mouse to position the cursor at the end of a highlighted string of text so they can backspace over the entire string. Slightly better, I'll watch someone use their mouse to re-highlight an already highlighted string of text and delete it. Both are indicators to me that most users (present company excluded) just don't get it! Yes, it would be pretty cool, and perhaps even quite useful, to use a minimal set of gestures in a browser. Until the introduction of the tab key in IE (and Netscape shortly after) there was no way to navigate in a browser without the mouse and I've hated it. Lynx is the only tool you can use to browse w/o a mouse that I have tried, and it's painful. Otherwise, unless I want to put both hands on the keyboard to go back I'm forced to move my mouse to the top-left corner and click back, or right-click and select back. Either way it's annoying. This is where I think gestures make sense. Where I don't think gestures make sense is ordinary tasks like File // Save, Edit // Paste (all hail middle-click), etc. Speaking of middle-clicks, hooray for Netscape's "Open Link in New Window" functionality. Can you imagine the typical user (again, present company excluded) trying to learn these motions, or the simple concept behind it?
How intuitive do most of you find console gaming? To start with, take *any* of the fighting games for N64, PS(2), or DC... do those key-combinations make the slightest sense to you at all? Sure, the basics do, but what about all the "special moves" you have to learn if you want to win a level? How often do special moves require flawless execution of 6 or directions/buttons? Even THPS2 has too many *assignable* combinations to ever use knowingly for all the different characters.
Now take that concept and apply it to all the separate applications in the Windows space. Every one of them is going to think their gestures should be different. Look how long it took to reach an acceptable standard for copy-n-paste... vs. ... and it's STILL not a given that either will work unless the software you're using is from the same vendor as the OS.
Take the concept and apply it to the KDE/Gnome war as well - no one is going to standardize on anything other than what they believe to be the best way to do it.
In closing, I'm all for limited gestures, it sounds like a really incredible concept, I just hope things don't get carried away to the point that people forget how to use their keyboards even more than they have now. A mouse is a wretched interface, although it provides some very useful assitance. Perhaps certain applications (web browsers for those who truly surf and do nothing productive) will benefit tremendously from this new paradigm, but for people who make a living on a computer there currently is no substitute for the keyboard. Unfortunately those same people are putting a roof over their heads by writing the software that the other 95% of the population uses and can probably continue to use by gestures alone. =(
Essentially the mouse has 2.5 degrees of freedom (relative x,y + activate mouse). A stylus is absolute x,y + tap code (morse code?) There are other devices which goes up to 6 (3D + twist, turn, roll). However this basically mirrors the major axes of your forearm. Imagine extending your forearm away from chest clenching a fist and moving or rotating the fist. Some other devices (e.g. wand) have been invented to mirror broad gestures but I don't think the tech is quite there yet to do real-time sign language which relies on alignment/spacing of the fingers. The problem is as always software applications which can recognise the gestures. Anywhich which is 2.5 degrees can be adapted to map to a mouse based input but you are really limiting yourself once you go to higher degrees of freedom. It would be easier to work out the complexity of the system you want to control, then work out the dimensions you can partition it into, then work out the type of device which best suits your needs. Note that even a high-end stylus can add extra levels of complexity such as angle, pressure, acceleration ... think caligraphy. The other factor is human support in that it is tiring to continously hold up your pinkie all the time. Tricks are to mount any coordinate device on something like glasses or helmet.
LL
Any experience with getting these working in *nix?
No, the driver gives new meaning to closed source. You can't even download it - you have to call Logitech to get another copy of the CD sent to you if you lose yours. It's not because it's big, either - the drivers aren't that sizable. Logitech loses points for that one. That's the only driver CD I actually keep.
What's your damage, Heather?
As a guy who plays Black & White with a Logitech iFeel mouse, I've gotta say your initial take on mice needs to be revisited. Having the mouse kick back when you do something right, wrong, powerful, whatever, that means a lot, and it helps you get used to doing things the right way.
The only drawback is that it's too tiring for day-to-day use. I usually leave the feedback turned off when surfing the web, for example, because it just beats your wrists to death as you glide over a zillion links. I've got carpal tunnel, and the buzz that it makes when jumping over hyperlinks makes my wrists feel like they've been typing for hours.
It's remarkably cheap, too - it was $45 on the shelf the last time I looked.
What's your damage, Heather?
It's just the last thing on the specs that makes me doubt that there will be linux drivers for this:
Recommendation: "IBM recommends Windows 2000 Professional for business."
Too bad, it looks great
----------------------------------------------
the pun is mightier than the sword
Yes, "Graphic Tablet" is nice for fluid motions. There are several technologies, but most look like a tablet with a pen or a puck. Little friction and very sensitive to your motions. Ever try handwriting with a mouse? It's much easier on a tablet with a pen.
sorry, but ...
;)
s/want/wont/
you used the wrong word
Don't ask. Go see.
However, I'd like to add that such a device as a pen is fairly cumbersome for the traditional GUI, since they're based off entirely different principles.
-------
CAIMLAS
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Now that's the most logical statement I've seen on /. in a loooong time.
Black & White sucks. Gesture controls suck. Get a fucking clue people.
--
All glory to the hypno-toad!
I want a good lips-and-tongue input device. It would take advantage of the deftness anyone who can talk (and even someone lacking vocal cords) has....
If your talking about Black & White why use a physical device, a netcam would be awesome. The moving around would be odd but casting spells would be cool. Maybe a two camera system could be put together to capture real 3-D movement, something I don't expect to see for quite a while.
Now if yout talking about 3rd person shooters, I love the strategic commander and a mouse. You physically can move the device to move about in the world and with two programmable buttons under each finger you can easly select weapons, jump, reload and whatever fills your heart with glee. Then I use the mouse to look/aim the weapons. I also like to use a wireless mouse and keyboard, it's always nice to be able to move the mouse clear across the desk without every having to pick it up or tug on the cord for slack. Another advantage with the strategic commander I often put the keyboard on top of the computer or monitor, don't need it because you can just program one of the buttons on the commander to do whatever you need to, no large clunky keyboard in your way (leaving plenty of room for soda and chips)! Now if they only made a wireless commander I'd be set!
In essence the "gesture recognition" system is tracing out a 2-dimensional shape, with (in the case of Black and White, for instance) accuracy affecting performance. Of course the benefit of it is mostly ease of use.
With that in mind, a fast intuitive "pointing" device is best for this purpose. A touchpad allows you to sketch these shapes out with your finger, and in fact Black and White with one (with the accuracy set right!) is great. I imagine a graphics would be great for this purpose as well.
On a related note, anyone else here seen the "menu" system in Sacrifice? instead of it being a dropdown system, it's cross-shaped, with new crosses spawned from each vertex. very fast, and no need for great accuracy when choosing selections. couldn't find a screenshot i'm afraid, but it's similar to the "circular" menu systems seen around.
/fross
I run Black & White at work on a Win2k machine and at home on Win98. I runs, not without trouble of course, but playable.
On both systems I use a Razer Boomslang 2000, which of course has a higher refresh rate than you would believe. It really doesn't help that much. What is more important, from what I can tell, is how much time the processor has to spend onhandling other things (like graphics) and how much time it spends on getting input from the mouse.
Computers can only simulate determinism. ~Hermetic.
If you've ever used a Palm for anything more than solitaire, you've probably come into contact with Graffiti. Graffiti is basically a gesture-based means of inputting alphanumeric data. It's a very small step to make the graffiti gestures perform macros instead of representing a single letter.
Pen-based gestures were the one part of the NewtonOS that worked well even on the first machines. To erase something, you scribbled up and down over it. To select something, you circled it. To move something that was selected, you tapped and dragged.
You sir, are a fucking idiot. Read his post again.
echo $email | sed s/[A-Z]//g | rot13
I got the hang of the controls quickly, but eventually I found that the mouse works well for maneuvering around, but was still unreliable when casting miracles. Often the gestures for casting a miracle would have to be slow and deliberate, and even then would take 2-3 trys to work. When you're trying to cast a miracle in a hurry, this is unacceptable.
I dug out a touchpad I won as door prize at a conference (which I hadn't opened until then) and gave it a shot. Casting miracles with a touchpad was an incredible improvement, the movement was much more intuitive to do with a finger rather than your whole hand. However, maneuvering in Black & White with touch pad is a pain, and in some situations it was impossible to use (fighting and other quick point-and-click motions).
So I got a serial mouse and starting using the mouse to play the game and the touch pad to cast miracles. This, IMHO, is the way the game was meant to be played. After a while, you'll find things that work better with the touchpad, such as interacting with your creature, and things that work better with the mouse, i.e. fighting and catching followers to feed to your creature. Give em both I shot, it's worth the $50 or so for a touchpad.
--- Rectum?! Damn near killed em'! - Confucius
I am currently using a Dell CPxJ for browsing with Opera. I had the regular drivers installed for the PS2 mouse...they blew for this. I downloaded the Alps drivers. This allowed me to click and drag, right click, everything could be set so I just placed my finger and drug...all's done
I think the key to anything is find something you are comfortable with, and then just make it work. Don't spend a lot of money on something you aren't going to be happy with. And when you do get it, don't half ass it!
------ This has been provided as a public service! ------
I saw a doco on theramin's today.. and this article prompted me to thinking about how a theramin would work as a input device for a pc.
extrodinary instrument anyway.
The "default" sensiva gestures are unfortuantly ungainly and boring, and thusly, I've implemented 5 gestures that I use regularly...
1) Mouse down and to the left, minimize: this SOO beats moving up to the corner of the screen, the trick is to have sensiva set to be VERY forgiving.
2) Mouse up and to the right, maximize.
3) Mouse streight down: close. This is a miracle, their default action is some lenghty thing that I would never ever use, but just doing a very very short down drag (approx 1 cm) is great.
4) Mouse left and then up, move window to other monitor
5) mouse left and down, turn of secondary monitor (with ultramon, a must for anyone who has multiple monitors)
Anyways, hopefully this will give you ideas, and remember to turn off the plugins thing, it just gets confusing and it bothers you overly.
So instead of just walking down the street with an earbug cellphone laughing and talking apparently to yourself as people are want to do these days, you could be stumbling around making inane "Johnny Mnemonic" gestures too? Tres, tres cool...
Dork.
All kings is mostly rapscallions. -Mark Twain, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn
Oh god it's happening. I've been surrounded by bad grammer and spleling four sew lawn that its starting to inflect my own riting skils.
All kings is mostly rapscallions. -Mark Twain, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn
I tried a hi-end wacom penpad with Sensiva. No fun at all. It failed to recognise many gestures and obviously expects people to push a mouse all over the available screen surface, rather than just make an elegant little gesture. Pointer: These gesture interfaces can be seen at work in the films of the Xerox work back in the 70s. In fact PARC invented not only the mouse, but also the penpad, I believe. The latest instantiation of Smalltalk, Squeak has a learning gesture recogniser buried in it somewhere, according to an Alan Kay interview I saw somewhere. And, as Philippe once asked, what will we do when the Xerox ideas run out ?
This is not a signature.
A few interesting things have emerged (and yes, I'm stating the obvious in point 1):
1. people interact with User Interfaces in two primary modes, which they switch between. Note: people could switch modes every 30 seonds while others don't for hours.
The first mode is pure keyboard, people only use the keyboard to navigate around the user interface. The second is pure pointer (mouse), people only use the pointer - even though its command vocabulary changes from application to application, i.e. different menus, icons, different positions of icons and menus, etc.
Yes there is a third mode which is a fusion of both keyboard and pointer but that tends to exist while switching modes, or with people who are just learning about computers.
2. different devices REQUIRE different types of gestures.
The trackball is great for inputing loose shapes and if you want some accuracy use a mouse but for even greater accuracy use a tablet.
BTW I used a trackball the whole time.
Grafitti (handwriting recognition in PDAs) is very much the same as the gesture based input in these systems.
Think about the act of dragging your mouse as the act of writing a little scrible to represent a letter that is places serially along an input stream.
They are very similar.
Eh...
The gyromouse is wireless and uses two solidstate gyroscopes for movement. To use it, you hold it in your hand and move your wrist, you're not tied to a surface!
Gestures are a nice thing to have in a window manager.
There was a patch to let FVWM2 use gestures, and I once modified wmx to use the same guy's library.
Pester your friendly neighborhood window manager team for gesture support, it's fun.
If anyone actually cares, and uses wmx, I probably still have the patch.
Ack, once again, those small movement arguments only apply to people who are ABLE to move things a small distance with some percision. I myself have to use a good portion of the screen (almost always the entire thing, or at least 60% of it. . . ) in order to make any gestures at all in B&W. Since I am just refering to the AREA in which my mouse pointer stays in there, the actual mouse movement is more then enough for me to have moved clear across the screen multiple times. . . .
::Grins:: )
Of course the true thing to be learned here is that you should NEVER rely on soly one interface for your needs, and that you should always offer multiple ways of doing things.
Even if you compleatly hate M$, you gotta admit, they are good at providing for multiple interface solutions (hell, you can do most things more then 1 way with just the keyboard, heh, indeed, there are very few parts of Windows that don't work with just a keyboard, quite nice actualy. Then, on those days when my keyboard goes out, I have actualy had to use just the mouse to do everything, and I was actualy able to!! Including chatting in ICQ, Heh, go Charmap!!! Painfull, but useable, to my surprise, hehe
Of course, I _WOULD_ love powerglove support in B&W, or for that matter any other type of tracking device support. I think that it woul. . .
Wait, did the post below say that he/she/it was playing on their powerbook?
Heh
::Breaks out laughing::
Oh man, ouchies, my 1gig Athlon can barly handle it. . .
Ah oh well,
end
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
I've yet to be able to cast the fireball in B&W, yet I am an avid FPS player and I can kick major (42:1 kill/death ratio) ass in HL, CS, etc. Gestures are just a pain in the ass for people like me who have shitty hand writting to begin with. Come on, if I had good hand-eye coordination (there are 2 types of hand-eye coordination, one is true hand-eye coordination and is related to catching balls and such, I don't have that, the other is pushing a button really fucking fast repetivly to make blood appear on the screen, I have _ALOT_ of that:) I wouldn't be using a frigging computer folks! Sheesh. . . . .
I find that hotkeys are ALOT easier, just have the letter in small print next in the lower right hand corner of the gesture icons in B&W and you would remain uncluttered. . . .
Shit, 4 out of 5 times I cannot even draw the circle in B&W to cast a shield spell. . . . Damn, I _HATE_ gestures. if it wasn't for the M hotkey and the R hotkey I wouldn't be able to play the game at all without zipping back to my temple to cast spells each time!
Gestures easier in a browser? Excuse me, WTF? Hmm, lets see now.
Enter, ooh, enter the data! Nice big key there, easy to hit. Backspace, go back a page. Once again. . . easy to do.
Also, don't forget that the amount of mouse movement you use for gestures is equal or GREATER then the distance that you would move your mouse to click on an icon! And if your just browsing then your icons are all up in the toolbar anyways right along with your mouse. Hell, just use tab to go between items and enter to enter the data, hell, I've browser without using the mouse at all, WTF would I want to complicate things even more?
Need help treating your acne? Come here!
For drawing pictures freehand on a 'puter nothing beats it. Pressure sensitive and integrates with Adobe and Corel. Darker, fatter lines when you press hard, lighter thinner lines when you ease up. You can actually sketch with this thing. Has a similar feel to a soft pencil or the spongy tipped ink pens. Put a piece of soft plastic over the tablet to provide a better feel of resistance to pen strokes. Nothing rough though. Anything rough will actually give you the effect of gravestone rubbings. It transfers the grain of the paper you are using to provide resistance directly to the screen. Yes, it is that sensitive.
If voting were effective, it would be illegal by now.
I have one just like yours. I'm using it for drawing (duh!) and basic operating system thingies. It works really well, although on my first day I moved two catalogs into a third, renamed three files and installed Acrobat Reader(twice!) before I figured out who the blasted thing worked. Also, playing Red Alert with it can be a pain. But I would recommend it to anyone!
/Smuffe
I noticed that some people seem to assume that the gestures in B&W are in the plane of the screen. The manual reads that these gestures are 'drawn on the ground'. I've found that gestures are more successful in the game if they are distorted to account for the slope of the terrain. Hence, doing a 'perfect' gesture on a tablet or with a mouse won't work too well, it needs to be put into perspective...
i am endorsed for the carrying of dangerous goods, please be giving me your depleted uranium
I don't work for them, but a friend does
I have used a pen based system at my school to do drafting and some drawing, and I found it quit a pain. I was able to use the pen for normal mouse type movements, but the thing got to really be a pain. It eventually started to hurt my wrist, because it wasn't quite the right size and i had to move my fingers around strangely to grip it. So...i don't really like the pens...
:)
I also use a glidepad occasionally on my father's laptop. I hated it at first, but then I got used to it and I can use that more effectively than a mouse (as long as i avoid finger drag). If you go the glidepad route..make sure you get one that you can click by tapping.
The anti-salmon
I don't know what you're doing, but I'm on the 4th world and my god's hand looks pretty damn evil... lots of icky veins and so on.
Burn villages, electrocute children, throw around the elderly, get your giant cow to eat the innocent, that sort of thing.
I wasn't even trying to be evil, those damn villagers just got in the way
I've only got experience of a mouse with gesture recognition, so I can't speak for any other device.
What I have seen is how much the 'refresh rate' of the mouse's position (temporal frequency?) affects the usability of gestures.
I've bought Black and White, and it has serious issues on Windows 2000. As in it doesn't run at all. Fantastic.
I've got a triple-boot machine (Slackware/Win98/Win2k), so I'm forced to run B&W in Windows 98 where the update rate of the mouse is pretty appalling.
Getting B&W to recognise some of the more complex gestures is a pain because the time between updates of mouse position gives the gesture considerably more 'jaggy' edges, making it look less like what you actually did with the mouse.
Windows 2000 has the refresh rate pretty high, so I'd have thought it's far easier to use gestures successfully on there.
I've not used the mouse much under Linux; my dedicated Linux box doesn't have a monitor, let alone a mouse, I just use it over ssh or X-Win32, so I don't know if the PS/2 refresh rate has been increased (or is configurable); the last I saw was that it wasn't particularly fast.
Opera's gestures are fairly simple (so far), not nearly as complex as some of B&W's gestures, so the rate isn't as critical. But, add more complex ones and you will see the difference.
It's not a new technology by any stretch of the imaginatio (emacs strokes mode anyone?) but it's very useful; even something as simple as Opera's 'back' gesture is so convenient, I wonder 'why didn't they put this in earlier!'.
Nice one Mr. Molyneux; he was always the king of games back in the good old days of Atari STs, and now something from his latest game seems to have started a bit of trend elsewhere in the software business.
You need stupid amounts of wood.
You can get huge quantities of wood by multiple clicking on the Wood miracle as you cast it. This is not a cheat, the game was designed to allow it and there are hidden drawbacks (which I'll leave you to find) but there is NO shortage of wood in B&W.
After a while you have stacks of villages, but still have generic messages that don't tell you where to look.
You're falling into a trap which the game sets for you (and is related to the wood issue). One option is to just train your creature to look after the villages for you. It can be done.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
I REALLY want my touch-sensitive screen. I've been wanting one for a long time, but they're few and far between, as well as $$$$$ Instead of point-and-click, I JUST WANT TO POINT!!! It just seems intuitively obvious that we've designed GUIs to act like hyper-newspaper. Just go the extra step! We're close - PDAs have it. Soon... very soon... (Maybe in my lifetime please?)
This was an ancient piece of software that took your average Joystick and turned it into a mouse. Buttons = Buttons. Navigation was by moving your Joystick around. Beautiful and elegant. I can only imagine the "enhancements" that could be made with all the new force feedback and related controls on the new joysticks.
Imagine feeling a "kick" in the joystick to warn you not to click on the "Goat sex" link.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
I get a smile out of the idea of people controlling their computers with the equivalent of wands, magic wands. In terms of a 3d interface it makes sense, complete with custom interfaces with funny symbols on them in a circle around the user.
;-)
Check out the Vinny the Vampire comic strip
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Nah, it's great.
A whole 5 levels,
Which take a long time to complete, at least for me.
and WAY too much wood required to do anything. If I wanted to do the same task over and over and over again for hours on end...
Yeah, I think the wood requirements are too high, but you can do this:
Step 1: Teach creature to cast wood miracle
Step 2: Attach creature to village store with the compassion leash
And how do you become evil?
I dunno, my problem is becoming good; my hand looks all orange and veiny, with sharp fingernails.
While I haven't played B&W or used the new Opera, I did use some software in college that had gesture recognition. It was a high end circuit design package. The product and/or company was Mentor Graphics. When drawing circuits, gestures sure were a lot easier than drilling down 3 or 4 levels of parts libraries.(Of coures, by the end of the semester we were all coding our circuits in VHDL.) I had no problems with using a 3-button mouse as input. I could see where a tackball might not be the best device for this. I wonder how a joystick might work? One like the VRPro Air?
Ninento-style glove was what I was thinking as well.. possibly more adapted to current technology (such as electronic gyroscopes to record subtle movement if desired). Basically the virtual reality style interface shown in Johnny Mnemonic. (of course you wouldn't have to hold your hands up, you could just rest them and be limited to more finger movement -- with 'goggles' for a viewport, you could even have a virtual keyboard.)
This has some potentially interesting implications for the p0rn industry...
:-)
I can imagine sharing computers will become a little unpopular.
I beleive Aliaswavefront did such a thing for shortcuts to most used commands. Perfect Dark on N64 also uses a similar system, although basic and is very effective.
Being able to detect where the user looks would open up a field for new user interface inventions. Being able to detect wether there is a person sitting in front of the computer could be usefull too.
Or reading the user expression (smiling, laughing, scowling, yawning, etc). Scowl and look at the paper clip to make it go away, rate web comics depending on if you smile or laugh when lookin at them. Have the IRC cliet insert "lol" automatically. Aargh.
pinkNoise
After hearing all these accolades for the gesture movement (especially in opera for the back button), I still find the keyboard to be, by far, the best way to get around in any software.
Back? Alt-Left. Forward? Alt-Right.
Despite the crap I'll get for saying it, I dig the Windows button, too-- at least when dealing with Windows. Open the run window? Win-R.
Yadda yadda. Even in video games, I prefer using the keyboard shortcuts over the mouse ones any day.
- Justin
Gesture based navigation can be very handy in certain cases, while keyboard shortcuts work better in others. For example, in a word processor it's easier to cut and paste using the keyboard shortcut than using, say, Sensiva's symbols (By "evaluation version", I assume you mean the Linux preview release? It's free, and I haven't found any spyware yet- unless you use it to go to websites, at which point it routes them through its own server. That's good to note and justifies using bookmarks instead, at least to me) On the other hand, if I want to launch a program, Sensiva's symbols are much quicker and easier than some cumbersome shortcut that requires I reach across the keyboard. I use a basic handheld mouse with scroll wheel, to answer the question, and it's a fine setup for what I do. In fact, my grandfather has wanted to buy a computer but believes they're too hard to use- at a certain age it becomes hard to hold the mouse steady to click a button or remember all the commands etc- but gesture based navigation might convince him, and it also could play a role in large open offices where voice-activation is impractical. So, it does have its uses.
what with my limited experience with gestures, in the game black and white, its kinda hard to get used to the motions, but after maybe an hour or so, it just becomes second nature. swirly motions are particularly hard, but once you do it so much, it just comes naturally... maybe you didnt practice long enough? :-)
but thats just me
Have you ever read the Bible? And you expect only that to make you evil? You've got to be a whole lot worse than that if you wanna come any where near being "evil." I mean...the Judeo-Christian god killed everything and everyone on the face of the earth (except 2 of each), burned cities to ashes...and he is considered a good god.
I mean seriously. You've got to do a better job, dude. After all, no one ever said it was easy to be the devil.
Gesture-based input is error-prone and can be frustrating. Try playing a multiplayer game of B&W and see how mad you get when you do a gesture incorrectly in the middle of a battle. If only I could have simply pressed a button instead!
I can see gestures being useful for web browsing (draw a 'B' to go back), but I can also see it being more of a hinderance than its worth.
I mod'd you up on a different thread just for answering me. I hate typing something long out and only getting one reply, even if I /do/ get mod'd to 5 :).
~
- Synchronize a "frame" from the point of view of every camera. You must already know their "absolute" positions, which is relative to some zero-point. (Determined by the original location of the calibrator).
- For each pixel that a given camera sees:
- Assume that you are seeing a pixel at the nearest point that the second camera in your stereo set could also see. To draw a human comparison, bring your finger closer and closer to your eye, until with your other eye it passes the line of your nose and you can't see it anymore. This is the "closest point".
- Calculate where this point would appear in the other camera, as well as the sorrounding blocks of pixels, and see whether it matches what the other camera in the stero pair actually sees.
- If it doesn't match, assume that it must be farther than you initially assume. Repeat process.
- Repeat until you "converge"...ie, get images where many pixels in the area "line up" as calculated by the assumption that they are at absolute point x,y,z. This process actually is very similar to what your eye does if you ever notice when it's scanning for how far away something is. At first it assumes it's close, then keeps looking farther and farther away until the two images are brought together. Your brain is the only thing bringing the two images together! Your eyes are still an inch point five apart, silly.
:) In the same way, for each pixel (or rather, group of pixels large enough to identify a small area on an object), our software's "brain" converges the image for various distances until it finds a match.
- If you cannot find a match, assume that the other camera in the pair is not seeing that particular pixel, either because something near you is blocking the nearest area that the other camera is seeing, or because something near the other camera is blocking the line of sight that goes to what you're seeing, or because it's outside the line of sight of another camera entirely. This last is easiest because you don't even need to scan the pixels you know only one camera sees.
- Repeat this process for each stereo pair.
- Assemble every picture you have an absolute coordinate from (that a stereo pair can see) into a three-space.
Note that I've left out such things as massaging the image from different cameras in various ways (color, brightness, etc) to get them near, using more or less fuzzy "matches" depending on how much you might expect an object to differ at different angles, and calculating lighting sources based on the calibrator. While these are serious issues, they're really basic math stuff that's well-explored in the field of optical recognition, and it's basically a cut-and-paste of components, and, like I said, a $5,000 server can do thirty frames per second without having any graphics hardware specifically enabled for this stuff. The number of three-space "pixels" it ends up getting varies with conditions, but you can always do well enough to read standard braille that's reasonably close in proximity (1.5 feet) to a stereo pair of cameras. Needless to say, there are more useful applications to these kinds of technology than reading braille on your computer screenDeveloping a gesture recognition system. I did not mean to outline everything I did above, but it really is not involved, and a lot more viable than some people think. Anyway, the interesting thing about the three-space that you develop from the process above is that it is very easily analyzable. Not only do you have a solid "block" of where pixels are, but it's easy to tell lines that separate, for instance, individual fingers that overlap. In fact, the human brain uses more picture analysis than stereoscopic analysis, and our system is actually more precise than the human brain at finding the exact location of a point two or three feet away relative to a point near it, compared with the human brain, if you are given no color clues! When looking at a hand, therefore, we can pretty take the basic shape of a hand and (here is where we get tricky) apply a very fuzzy algorithm for fitting it to the hand that we actually see. It is "fuzzy" almost to the extent of being neural-netty (although we control it very much), since it not only needs to choose between an infinite number of ways that two hands can contort themselves, but also learn the size of individual aspects of it (which changes slightly), and their shape, and for this purpose also takes into account where the hand "used" to be in the previous frame, how fast it was moving over the previous few frames, and how likely it is to move in a certain way, with respect to speed and with respect to what positions are unnatural. All this is necessary to get 30 frames per second, because we aren't just interested in the "position" of the hand, but its important aspects (the relative bend in each joint). To test, we have another application that is ONLY given the absolute position of hands and the relative joints we are measuring, and then reconstructs the hands visually. You can therefore have all three programs running, the stereoscopic analyzer feeding the hand-position recognizer data, and the hand-position recognizer feeding the renderer data, so that your screen shows how the renderer is getting the info about where your hands are. Mostly, however you move your hands will be reflected on the screen, but if you move it very quickly and unusually you can still confuse the hand-position analyzer and get an image that's out of sync with what your hand actually is doing. This is independent of the stereoscopic anaylzer, which comes up with the correct data, which if you feed directly to the renderer you see always matches what your hand is doing, at 30 fps.
So now I've outlined how we get the position of joints, which includes quite a bit of fuzziness. But by far the most fuzziness is not in this, but in the actual "recognition" of a GESTURE. We've already gotten the first-generation information about what a gesture is by spending several hours each in front of a test server set up for it, already equipped with a popular voice command system, and agreeing to surf the web and do various other tasks the voice command system is equipped for (we didn't make that, it's just purchased off the floor somewhere) while also doing the gesture we have set up for each command. So we end up with "sample" gestures to analyze, and have already manually looked at the major indicators and drawn them up and programmed them. The way we have done the first time is very crude, however, eyeing as we have each sample ourselves, but we are now in the process of collecting second-generation information, so that when a user successfully uses a gesture and doesn't complain that it wasn't what he wanted, that particular instance of gesturing gets put into the database of gesturing instances associated with a gesture, and we are developing fuzzy logic to link these gestures more closely and reliably. The gestures make sense for the most part, such as having your right thumb open to the left with your other fingers closed, in a quick leftward motion to go back, or up and with a quick rightward motion to be right. Stopping is pushing your palm forward toward the screen, closed a window is putting your finger and thumb together and drawing your hand back, as if you're flicking the window away, and refresh is a sweeping gesture with your palm toward you, from bottom left toward top-right (only a small part of the way). The software recognizes a "gesture" because you perform it particularly fast and deliberately, so if you playing with your hands slowly, it doesn't misrecognize any of these.
Anyway I'm getting really tired of typing all this, and even though there is much, much, more, I'm just kidding. Wouldn't all this be cool though?
~
*Signals computer to keep talking* Neural networks, gesture input, speech recognition... The future looks to be very unsocial indeed. From a certain point of view... You could also argue that you're socialising with your computer but I believe there is an adjective which is often used to describe people who socialise with their computers (dating sims and the like)... "Sad".
Assuming you have a ps2 mouse, there are "overclocking" programs that will increase the mouse refresh rate for you in win9x. Go look around (sorry no links, I use a usb mouse so I don't know where to find it).
Gloves seem somewhat outdated in a strange way. They never caught on, and are a little cumbersome for day-to-day activity (ever tried typing in gloves?). But what about something smaller? MEMS technology is developing better and smaller solutions every day - and accelerometers could be an answer.
Instead of putting a glove on your hand, how about sticking a small IR/Bluetooth/802.11/whatever MEMS device to the back of your hand, and go for it. Wave your hand around, and have the sensors track the motion in 3D. I'm fairly certain that in time (if not already) the sensors will be sensitive and reliable enough for you to be able to select screen items by "pressing" them.
This would be a wonderful way to go for interfaces (for selection, at least, not text input), as it would work with a device of any size, and is totally portable.
My 2c on the work of hi-tech.
i-name =twylite [http://public.xdi.org/=twylite], see idcommons.net
Mouseadjuster
PS/2Rate
Those should solve your problems - I've used one, and it really smooths things out.
-- Chris
-- Chris
$email=~s/[^a-zA-Z0-9@.]//g;
Say you have a "Z" gesture (Haven't played B&W or used the new version of Opera yet, so don't know exactly what types of gestures we're talking here) - you could try to do it with a mouse, but it could be difficult. With a tablet, it's as simple as writing a Z as you normally would on paper. Quite simple.
The tablets aren't too expensive, either. I chose Wacom as they're recognized as the industry leader among artists (Higher pressure sensitivity and more gee-whiz bells and whistles), but most any tablet could work. I got mine (6x8 intuos) for $130, refurbished. No problems with it. It's a serial interface, but that doesn't bother me too much. You can get the smaller "average" version for about $70 or $80, I think, and it'd work just as well. I certainly consider it to be worth the price.
-- Chris
-- Chris
$email=~s/[^a-zA-Z0-9@.]//g;
yeah that's what i do, too... i just kind of think "oh shit i don't want to do that, scratch it out".
well "to each his own" i guess.... i use opera religously now and i find myself trying to use gestures in all other programs that i use. i think that it really lets the mouse live up to its capabilities.
Maybe in the future someday they will come up with a brain controller. That would be cool, because you could just twitch your brain and hear "Miracle Water" booming in your head. Just think it and it's done. Or maybe I should just stop watching so much TV...
The Oberon operating system uses special clicks like in Opera for years. For example, clicking the left mouse botton while marking text with the right button deletes the marked text. The Oberon mouse has 3 buttons, and most possibilities of interclicking are actually used. This is very powerful, once your used to it.
...anything that attaches to the head. It seems counter-intuitive, but could you imagine using a helmet or visor to play Quake? I can see the whiplash lawsuits at Id's door now... "Our client, D34thFr0mAB0V3, suffered a fractured sternum while attempting to 'rail-snap' a third party..." -t
So instead of just walking down the street with an earbug cellphone laughing and talking apparently to yourself as people are want to do these days, you could be stumbling around making inane "Johnny Mnemonic" gestures too? Tres, tres cool... Hey, I've got an idea. Rewrite the basic gestures to be Mime gestures. Then we can have people walking by and resizing an invisible box or doing "touching the invisible wall" when moving windows. You could have them pulling an invisible rope to scroll the windows and walking against the wind to move deeper into directory areas and file folder rooms. Silly, but cheap fun for children. My perfect concept for user accessories is a Hexadecimal (from Reboot) harlequin mask. If you could attach a bronze cup to one of the interface gloves there could be even a easy way to get free money. The only problem is a frightening world of faceless mimes walking around the city streets. That's plenty of nightmare fuel for me.
"Face it, a nation that maintains a 72% approval rating on George W. Bush is a nation with a very loose grip on reality.
You are failing to make the distinction between feedback and gesture devices. They are separate entities that benefit when combined. Feedback joysticks have been around for some time now and other feedback devices (iFeel mouse and others probably) are on the market now. Hell, Nin64 controllers have feedback modules. Gesture based input need not have feedback, but it helps.
I worked at GO for almost four years. Our PenPoint operating system was gesture-centric, and used a pen directly on the screen. For desktop development we used Wacom tablets. I found pens much easier to use than mice. If memory serves there was even a Wacom tablet with an LCD screen behind it, so you could have an external monitor with pen input.
I was born not knowing and have had only a little time to change that here and there. -- Richard Feynman
I wish the Windoze PC at work would understand the simple gesture I keep making at it. A single extended finger, highlighted against a background of deep blue. I'm going to end up with a repetitive stress injury that's going to be tough to explain to the claims adjustor.
IBM has a new laptop that is awsome for gesture navigation. It is large and heavy, but it opens up with a notebook on one side, and the laptop/monitor on the other. It has both a normal laptop mouse and a pen mouse. The pen mouse can be used on the screen, or on the pad beside the laptop. It comes with a documentation program that allows you to write/draw into the software itsself =) Its _REALLY_ cool... the pen allows you to do gesture type actions just like you where writing them down!
So if you flip your computer off, does that mean it's time to reboot? I tried it with my keyboard (I started with the 'F' key) but nothing happened.
--
Damn it Jim, that's my sphincter, not a jelly donut!!!
I find the mouse is excellent for this sort of thing. However, I have a Logitech Mouseman which fits my hand perfectly and I have very high sensitivity set and acceleration turned on. A gesture for me means moving my mouse within an area no bigger than about 1/4" x 1/4". Most people have their mouse sensitivity set way too low.
The only better device would be a 3D glove since you could do 3D motions, which gives a much larger domain for your gestures to be in, probably making it both easier to remember them and less likely you'll mess them up. But don't sneeze or you may delete you root directory.
BTW, Black and White sucks. A whole 5 levels, and WAY too much wood required to do anything. If I wanted to do the same task over and over and over again for hours on end I'd get a job in a factory and get paid for it. And how do you become evil? I taught my creature to eat people, I destroy entire villages, I set people on fire, fling them into mountains, sacrifice 'em all over the place, starve them to death and I'm a GOOD God? They got some good weed down at Lionhead, uh-huh.
Oh loneliness and cheeseburgers are a deadly combination. -Comic Book Guy
Yes just look what it did to Elvis...
Proof that I can not spell - just look at my handle
I use the VersaPad from Interlink Electronics (69.95). It works VERY well with all these programs, and I strongly suggest getting one. Even if you have a mouse and want to enhance gesture recognition, it is a vey good deal.
The best gesture package I've ever used was built into Synaptics' Windows98 driver. Synaptics makes virtually all touchpads for notebooks/laptops. It would recognize gestures on the touchpad. No clicking... And it was forgiving too... Not only did it do that, but it also supports two-finger gestures. Touchpads have the ability to sense when you touch it with two-fingers. This greatly reduces the chances of accidental-gestures, which can become quite annoying, because if it happens, it will most likely happen again and again. Too bad their windows2000 do not have this feature. And they don't make their own linux drivers either.. In Opera, gestures feel primitive, but it -is- a good start. For one thing, you have to perform the direction controls exactly. If you want to do a "back" gesture, you're supposed to click-move mouse left-let go. but most right-handed people will move the mouse to the left, but also slightly downward. Opera does not understand this.. sometimes, I accidentally minimize the window (left-down) instead of going back..
I thought the jestures were easy using the mouse. I can't stand using a touchpad as a pointing device. Even though it would be easy using a touchpad for jestures, make sure you like using it as a pointing device as well.