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Pocket PC 2002: Sweaty Palms?
joestump98 writes: "It appears Microsoft is launching the latest version of their Pocket PC. Here's the announcement from Microsoft about it." Perhaps Palm will fire back with something involving BeOS?
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first post!
----------- Theodusian -----------
Its too late for Palm. They stagnated. Microsoft caught up. Where have I heard this before...? Wasn't some Cupertino fruit company involved? Hmmmmmm.
Why should Palm respond to a MS palm with an implementation using an OS unproven on its platform. Extolling the fashionable alternatives just to say it point to a clear lack on thoughtfullness.
Thanks,
Gerald Roebke.
Gerald Roebke
with a bit more depth than the press release at pdabuzz
looks pretty.
Useful links (including screenshots)
Microsoft PocketPC 2002 Site
PocketPC Thoughts
Smaller.com
PocketPC Passion
``Palm was first,'' he said, ``But Microsoft often gets it right on the third try.'' It only took palm one try.
However, I do like this, becuase unlike palm microsoft has been more willing to support developers. To try to get some sample code from palm takes a form printed out in triplicate, signed and sent to califonia, and no, they won't take a fax. This compared to going to http://msdn.microsoft.com to get source to study. Which would you choose?
=================
Unix is very user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are.
Palm bought BeOS to BURY IT. What is so hard to understand about that?
apt-cache show winxp .ico converter
W: Unable to locate package winxp
$ apt-cache show windows
W: Unable to locate package windows
$ apt-cache show windows_xp
W: Unable to locate package windows_xp
$ apt-cache show windows xp
W: Unable to locate package windows
W: Unable to locate package xp
$ apt-cache show WinXP
W: Unable to locate package WinXP
$ apt-cache search windows xp | grep window
xpm2wico - an xpm to windows
BeOS runs on x86 only, as far as I know [except some old apples etc, I know](something which has held them back in the embedded market also). It will probably take a comparably long time to port some BeOS-on-PDA to StrongARM or whatever Palm plans on using.
One more thing: I guess the real PDA battle will be fought in the smartphone market (it just means hauling one box less around in your pockets if you have phone and pda integrated, and of course it makes sense too combine an adress manager etc with a phone). Microsofts Stinger platform is quite ready, whereas Palm isnt able to offer something competitive. I havent heard much of the EPoc/Psion-base Symbian platform, too...
Looks like another market that will go to microsoft.
an electric guitar is a great stress redirector: it pisses off my neighbours but relaxes me sooo fine...
Someone has already posted some interesting commentary regarding MS's poltential liabilities to the competitors under its conviction as a monopoly. In short, it was stated that any entity can claim a "Triple Damages" score against Microsoft. If you were a $1 million dollar company shut down by Microsoft's unlawful practices, you get $3 million back from Microsoft. How much was BeOS worth at its peak? $150 million? Maybe that translates to a lot of money for Palm? I dunno... Just wondering/guessing...
The simplicity of PalmOS is what makes it attractive...maybe for some superficial Joe Q. Public's the flashy wizbang stuff is a differentiator, but I'm hoping that BeOS doesn't replace PalmOS (maybe have a dual OS strategy? the media-rich BeSpawnOS and the no-nonsense evolution of today's PalmOS?)
cz
Among the first machines loaded with Pocket PC 2000 will be Hewlett-Packard Co.'s (NYSE:HWP - news) HP Jornada 565 and 568 devices, with suggested retail prices of $599 and $649, respectively, less a $50 rebate good through the end of 2001.
The new Jornadas will be previewed tomorrow at the DemoMobile conference in La Jolla, California and are expected to ship in October.
Like most other Pocket PC devices, the Jornadas occupy the high end of the market, as devices loaded with the Palm OS can be had for as little as $100.
The higher-priced devices offer so many functions, according to Giga's Enderle, that they constitute viable stand-alone computers.
``The thing that impressed me the most is that it's a full Outlook client,'' he said, meaning the computer can have receive e-mail without relying on a desktop or laptop computer. ``These changes move the Pocket PC into what will likely be the sustaining generation of devices: they're always on, always connected and function as a stand-alone platform.''
Okay, what role did MS have in the Compaq/HP merger?
Merger is narrowing the field of competition in the laptop market, and Jornada device seems to replace laptop functions.
The merger makes it more likely that HP/Compaq will have enough money and credit to aggressively market this Jornada.
This announcement seems to be timed pretty close with the merger.
I have no problem with Microsoft producing its software, but I do have a problem with social engineering - the deliberate restriction of markets outside software - such as palmtop hardware - in order to pursue its social engineering goals (e.g. replacing the laptop, and wedding MS programming to the palmtop).
Goat sex free since 2001
Future development will lead to pen terminals that can transmit solid holographic images and understand speech, and use the internet to connect to AI's at popular websites like MSN and google which will then intelligently order your life.
Sound like Science Fiction? Well, I may be an artist by trade, but in fact researchers at the Neils Bhor institute have made the first steps towards this new totalitarianesque future of AI dominated walking mannequins. Last week they unveiled the TeleDaemon9, an AI that organises personal schedules, and a simple pen terminal using bluetooth that employees must obey when in the building.
This may seem somewhat controversial, but make no mistake that Personal Assistants are already making the subtle graduation to 'personnel controllers'. What are YOU going to do about it?
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
There is no
along with Monday's announcement of HP swallowing Compaq makes me wonder what the future of Compaq's iPAQ linux support will be... I'm sure MS attached effective $tring$ onto HP to push wince.
I've seen many articles lately about Compaq's ineffective linux strategy but I feel that what they've done with the iPAQ has been very impressive. I've never been able to have direct contact with the engineers of a device/pc in getting support for linux, like I've had with Compaq (mailing lists and irc).
Today, 'Corporatism' had a good day.
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess? - Joshua (Wargames)
I would love to see BeOS on a palm, but it might takes lots of more time.
From the article:
``It's like a kid growing into an adult and getting their first job,'' said Giga Information Group analyst Rob Enderle. ''The Pocket PC upgrade is targeted at a professional, maybe someone who's going to use this instead of a laptop.''
and
The changes in Pocket PC 2002 include a new version of Windows Media Player, which allows handheld users to listen to music and watch video clips
Music, ok perhaps...(though seems like a rio might work better), but video? This does not seem like an appropriate form factor for watching much video. Replacing a laptop 12-15" screen with a pocketPC and media player doesn't really seem viable.
Plus, at ~$600 this still doesn't seem to be aimed at the Palm demographic.
-Ted
-=-=- Quantum physics - the dreams stuff are made of.
The question isn't if customers will buy the new Microsoft-based Pocket PCs. Some will, many more will not.
The question is if the CELL PHONE manufacturers will be able to:
1. Readily integrate the OS into their devices.
2. License the OS at reasonable fees.
3. Find reasonable benefits for integrating the OS.
So far, Palm is winning this battle, along with Java. Microsoft is not, and this doesn't seem to be a step in that direction.
The current set of PDAs are just a waypoint to fully integrated devices. If Palm tries to follow the Microsoft path, Palm will fail. As will Microsoft.
Get cracking.
"CIBC World Market analyst Thomas Sepenzis said the two PC makers could lean on their extensive contacts in the corporate market to extend the market share of their hardware, and by default, the market share of Microsoft's software.
``H-P and Compaq have awesome enterprise contacts,'' he said. ''Chances are they will say 'you buy 16 e-business servers from us and we'll throw in 500 (Compaq) iPAQs or (H-P) Jornadas, and we'll support them for you.''
This is how Microsoft always wins. They do whatever they have to do to win. Get partners to give away products that push M$ software? No problem, M$ probably subsidizes HewPaq in this endeavor.
________________
Private Essayist
As far as OS's go, Microsoft has always played catch-up in terms of technology. (Win95 was matching macintosh `84, for example)
With the new HP/Compaq merger pending, I doubt either of the two hopeless companies will keep their head above water high enough to help support any sort of effort from Microsoft. Without the iPAQ or jornada, how can Pocket PC 2002 increase the already dwindling %10 of the marketshare it currently has?
On a side note, there is no prayer for it when the jornada is $600...I can get a Palm for $200 that will do more. I know the features well because I sell the jornada, and the price is just not worth the features over the palm. Tough sale to make, even at the sub-$400 pricetag for the 525 and 545 that they currently have.
Celebrate Steak and a Blowjob Day!
What kind of compatibility are we talking about here? Is this a fully functioning version of Outlook? What I mean is, if I equip my entire production staff with these devices, can I expect to lose billions of dollars with full compatibility with Outlook viruses? I have to ask, because a few billion here and a few billion there really make a difference, you know, and if my company doesn't start losing time and money like our competitors, then my job as CIO just isn't secure.
I think I'll wait and see until Microsoft promises 100% Outlook virus compatibility. Call me conservative, but that's my honest judgment.
According to Microsoft the number of new features will make the OS a more 'useful' tool for corporate workers. Cnet has a interesting here
Diplomacy is the art of letting people have your way
It looks great, but in actuality does it matter if you can have a full outlook client if you have to recharge the batteries every 10 minutes? These guys should take a cue from Nintendo, the maker of the longest lasting handheld monopoly, Game Boy and get a screen that uses next to nothing for power. I've got a Visor Prism (don't ask, dot commie mistake) and it also looks great but the batteries don't last that long under use. You should be able to use these things for multiple days without recharge or swap of batteries. The new GB (not advance) lasts for a whole day on only a single battery. If Palm can keep up it's crazy long battery life then I think that it can beat MS. Handhelds are good in areas where using a laptop is problematic, not tethered to a power supply.
``Palm is going to be bringing out a new operating system ... the belief is they'll have it done by the end of next year,'' he said. ``But it's hard to ship those things on time. It could take years, and Palm doesn't have years.''
:) Maybe iPAQ?
Ok, so the trend is overpowerful PDAs to replace your desktop? If you want to use a PDA with desktop-like applications, why not use a Linux PDA with Qt Palmtop Environment? It's GPL and you can download it from the site. "Just add Linux and stir" it says on the page. Use Konq Embedded while you're at it, which is also complete. No vaporware here! Of course, you need a capable PDA to run these on. Hehe, are those available?
Oh and...
``The thing that impressed me the most is that it's a full Outlook client,'' he said, meaning the computer can have receive e-mail without relying on a desktop or laptop computer."
Golly gee. You could've received email with other PDAs for years too, like the Psions. Too bad they never got the recognition they deserve here in the states. At least with the built-in keyboard you could actually compose meaningful replies. Now that's power.
I use Palm and like it for this reason, and I'd rather fight than switch. Palm: please DON'T be tempted to match MS/HP/CPQ feature for feature.
sulli
RTFJ.
"Continues to win"? OMG, stop smoking crack and open your eyes.
Palm devices languish in Palm's warehouses. CE devices are not produced fast enough to meet consumer demand. By sheer numbers, the PalmOS has certainly won. However a look at their growth rates shows that Palm has slowed considerably while CE devices (most prominently the iPaq) have seen astronomical growth.
If you give it the power to do more than a simple organizer but give it a dinky screen and a pen pased input, it's going to be a professional's toy.
Either that, or it will require you to lug around accessories (like a keyboard).
Let's count all those popular CE device*s*:
1) iPaq
2) There is no 2
Palm is winning the battle? Here in Europe I havent seen a single Smartphone based on PalmOS that was available in Stores. The rather clunky VisorPhone is your best choice here. Jave doesnt play that big a role; its more of a nice extension to play around with. And it also has yet to become popular. Whereas Microsoft recently bought a stake in the British cell phone upstart Sendo with plans to release smartphones based on Microsoft`s Stinger platform from Sendo, Siemens and many more. T
an electric guitar is a great stress redirector: it pisses off my neighbours but relaxes me sooo fine...
Sorry Linux guys and anti-MS people (I count myself as one). This new PocketPC 2002 will hit Palm where it has traditionally had its early adopters. It will also affect many other companies like Rim and their Blackberry pagers. If this OS can provide half of the functionality it says it can, then I believe this will be the slap down on Palm.
Basically, the Exchange functionality is the real killer. Since MS through its monopoly is used for most big corps as the email server, this integration will be great for users. It will be just like having a Blackberry, only better. It kind of reminds me of what those pads on Star Trek do.
After taking over corporate America, much like NT a true consumer version of this stuff will hit the mass market. After businesses accept this, prices will come down and be even more palatable with the mass market. I can only hope that the free wireless network movement can make ubiquitous computing an economic reality.
Just my $.02
Ah..But you can't put a laptop in your pocket. I agree that you may not want to watch a lot of video on the Pocket PC, but I do find it handy to have my demo-reel available in my pocket, and with the Targus stowaway keyboard it does replace my laptop for daily typing tasks..
air and light and time and space
the "competition" simply roll over and die whenever Microsoft announces it's going to enter a market?
I know, I know, once upon a time Quicken won, and both Talisman and Bob flopped. But Microsoft has demonstrated that they learn from their mistakes. When was their last market disaster.
Perhaps an interesting strategy would be to give them the market on their first try, then learn from their product mistakes and come back.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
I have been using a Palm device for about 2.5 years now. I loved it but I recently bought a Jornada with a CDPD modem and I live on the thing. The CDPD service could be faster but pocket IE rocks. I now have email and web access anywhere (except Atlanta so far) that I go.
Palm had it going on for a long time but they haven't added much in the last 2.5 years and that is an eternity in this business. Simplicity is great but I'm willing to live with the increased complexity of PocketPC to get what I want. Palm needs to work on their screens and offer some more up scale hardware. Browsing at 160x160 resolution sucks. 1/4 VGA isn't optimal but it is much better. Compact Flash support is a must these days. I can add dirt cheap memory to the PocketPC and store all of my reference docs on the thing.
The only thing that I really like better on the Palm is the handwriting recognition. Grafitti is better than the PocketPC equivalent. I used grafitti for 2.5 years before starting to us the PocketPC so my brain may just be fucked up that way now.
While this Yahoo! article mentions alot about Pocket PC 2002's features, it does not mention that Palm OS has many of the same, as well. Here is a description of PalmOS' platform. It clearly states that PalmOS 4.0 has 16-bit color, Bluetooth wireless connectivity, faster universal serial bus (USB) connections, and support for wireless Internet. Here, the site goes into even more detail on it's features.
What I found interesting in Pocket PC 2002 is that it comes with Windows Media Player, and an Outlook client. However, users in PalmOS can listen to media and send e-mail too, it just isn't your godly Microsoft applications. Just my two cents on the matter...
void women (int money, time_t time);
Oh, in my country I've seen a few Palm-based phones, but no PocketPC-based fones.
And most pocket PCs I've seen are rather large. You mean they have some Pocket PCs that are as small as a small cell phone?
Tell me more!
I used grafitti for 2.5 years before starting to us the PocketPC so my brain may just be fucked up that way now
In actuality, that's probably what it is. You'd probably have a ton of problems switching to a non-QWERTY keyboard layout too, no matter how much better it actually was. Wrapping your head around a new thing is pretty difficult, I still can't bring myself to drag the floppy disk icon to the trashbin on the Mac platform.
[ugh] the speculative comment at the end of the original post is just that --speculative commentary. let's not jump to conclusions. i'll reserve my excitement for the first genuine, bona fide rumor.
and for whomever submits it, please don't skimp on the fake screenshots.
Palm doesn't need to match the PocketPC feature-for-feature, but they do need to give the Palm a major overhaul. The device looked great in 1996, but seriously, if you were a Windows user looking to buy a handheld today, the familiar UI (and desktop integration) of PocketPCs are mighty tempting.
``These changes move the Pocket PC into what will likely be the sustaining generation of devices: they're always on, always connected and function as a stand-alone platform.''
Yep. Always on. For the entire 30 minutes of battery life. Honestly, at Comdex here in Toronto this year, not a single WinCE device was on display without a power cord.
I'm sure there are plenty of enterprise applications for this OS that I haven't thought of, but Palm does plenty (off-the-shelf and custom), its battery life is amazing and it just plain works.
Palm must not get sucked into playing this game by Microsoft's rules. They've got a simple, robust, ubiquitious platform. Microsoft has none of those attributes, but will try to goad Palm into giving them up in favour of competing feature-for-bullshit-feature.
Last Fall in COMDEX Hell(?), there was a "Battle of the Handhelds" media event where a cadre of 3COM/Palm geeks did an "debate" style presentation against a M$ cadre...they took turns, laid out strengths/weaknesses, etc...
;), it wasn't theirs was; newer technology, better color, multimedia, and real multi tasking and multi media, all built it
1. the room (a large sideroom, 300+) was FULL to SRO
2. Phil Holden led the M$ Team, I don't remember who led the Palm Team, both teams were well prepared
the Palm folk abandoned the debate style forum and went into a "we're the OG and we have the market share, and 3rd party apps" Marketing Speel
The M$ folk were clearly taken aback at this, and had to develop an impromptu "market speel" of their own, you wouldn't think that would be that hard for them
at the end of the hour and a half(?), the moderator asked for a show of hands and asked the audience a number of raised your hands questions (these questions are NOT verbatim, but are pretty damn close, 90%+).
among the ones i clearly remember are:
Who is currently using a handheld? Over 90% of the audience raised their hands affirmatively
Who is using a PalmOS handheld? Around 80+% of the audience raised their hands again.
Who thinks PalmOS is currently superior to wince? Around 90% of the audience agreed that PalmOS is currently superior.
Who thinks that their next handheld will be a PalmOS machine? HERE it gets interesting, only around 50% of the audience raised their hands.
The moderator, taken aback, thought about it and then asked; Who would consider buying a wince machine when they buy their next handheld? Around 50% of the audience raised their hands.
The moderator then asked who thinks that PalmOS has gone as far can with its current architecture?
AROUND 70%+ OF THE AUDIENCE RAISED THEIR HANDS AFFIRMATIVELY
pretty much everybody in the room was surprised at how many people thought PalmOS needed an overhaul..that was last November!
Palm had better very quickly take the BeOS technology and do something about getting multi-threading, larger memory model, multi-media (read MP3,WMA) 16-24 bit color implemented, TCP/IP support and ALL AT THE KERNEL LEVEL, not as OS shimware or else you can chalk up another dead platform
at the M$ Embedded Developers Conference in Feb this year, M$ laid out some of their platform tools and improvements to CE...they were pretty damned impressive (esp considering their early efforts..i own a very low # Compaq Companion CE v1....i still flinch when i think about using Pocket Outlook or Pocket Explorer at 14.4, my IIIXE blows it away)
wince sales are ***DOUBLING*** every month....you figure it out...the ipaq was backordered for months
Ten quid, she's so easy to blind. And not a word is spoken...
A note to the skeptics about pocketpc -- When I first saw Internet Explorer 1.0 I laughed and thought about how I would never use such a lame excuse for a browser. By the time 3.0 came along, IE had taken the lead and now it is hands down the best browser ever written. Microsoft may be able to accomplish the same kind of feat with pocketpc. For now, however, I'll stick with my palm and wait until I have reason to switch.
Amazing magic tricks
IE3 and Netscape 3 were roughly equal. You're probably thinking of IE4 where it became clear that it was the better browser.
infoSync's article has plenty of screenshots of the new interface:
http://www.infosync.no/en/news/n/566.asp
that Palm and MS are going for. Palm's are cheap and Pocket PC's are expensive (by comparison). The strange thing is that even though one costs half as much as the other, they are always compared. Kind of like comparing a Ford Escort and a BMW.
And what about the much rumored Apple iPad? At +/- 1000x1000 resolution (I've seen both 1000x1000 and 1024x768), WiFi, 5+ hrs battery life, USB, and OS X I'd dump both my Plam V and my iPaq 3670 in a second. (...dreams of mornings on the patio with my coffee and my pad checking mail and laughing at slashdot...)
I think PDA's will always have their place, but I really believe the BIG market in the next few years (for business anyway) is going to be wireless tables.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - BF
Outlook client - wowie. Be still my heart.
802.11b - so you can wander around your office using the Outlook client to:
1) Get windows media files and play them back. Obviously that feature has ZERO utility on a WAN link.
2) Get your mail - function limited by bandwidth
3) Play some games
4) Some vaguely enhanced security? WTF is that a built in SECUREID card? Don't think so Did MS secretly fix the man in the middle attack or develop a new encryption for WEP? Don't think so. Maybe its a poweron password or something equally exotic.
5) Anything else or do you have enough sunshine up your ass?
I've been using a Palm IIIx for roughly 3 years now. It okay, nothing spectacular. What I'm realy waiting for though is basically the killer PDA. I want something that has a great screen. I mean really good resoultion. I don't want to be able to see the damn pixels on the screen. I want built-in 802.11b. At least 2 week battery life. Powerfull proccessors. Powerfull enough to play live video over the previously mention wireless connection. I would like the screen to be slightly bigger than they are now. The unit can be no thicker than the current Palm V series. Built-in stereo speakers (That you can actually hear!!!) Large storage space. A gig would be perfect. Some sort of smart media cards. Compact Flash would be nice. IR port that has some distance to it. Built-in mic for the natural language speach recognition software (included). A vibrater, like cell phones have. That way your PDA can tell you things with out having to beep at you. (I hate ringing cell phones in place where they should be off.)
That's about all I can think of right now. If there is a unit out there like that, I will be the first to buy it!
...the CD that comes with the device has TScribe, a really nice natural handwriting recognition program. I've used all three (Grafitti, "PocketPC grafitti", and TScribe); the TScribe is infinitely better (IMO) than the other two.
Since PalmOS itself is basically a 16bit OS and would be difficult to turn into a 32bit OS (just think of DOS to WinNT), they need something new. BeOS is simple and small enough to serve as a 32bit OS for their new StrongARM platform.
Why does Palm have to "go beyond"? Because the market for simple calendaring/organizing is nearly saturated and the price keeps going down. Money is in vertical apps, and PalmOS is not an attractive proposition there.
Is it time we changed the PDA icon from an outdated Palm III to something newer? A handrsping, a Vx, or maybe an iPaq?
I exaggerated only slightly.
In five years what features have been added to Plam software? Color. Thats it! "Hey Joe, what are you working on?" Joe: "Red, and I've been at it for 3 years. Blue and green are next".
2nd easiest job in the world: Palm hardware engineer. Requirements: Bs.C. EE or Mech EE. Duties: Design a silver case in less than 4 years.
For a while now the "Next Big Thing" has offered little or nothing I find desirable. Quite frankly, most people who would use a PDA would do fine with a IIIe or V (or an old WinCE unit if they're that way inclined).
I don't need my PDA to be able to play movies and my mobile phone has the MP3 attachment (which makes more sense 'cause mobiles are all about audio).
That's what all you PalmOS cheapos say. Face it, you wouldn't be saying it if you weren't so envious.
They keep announcing products with underperforming processor, low number of colors, lack of features and an overpriced tag for the high-end when you compare them to the WinCE equivalent.
:)
It's sad to say, PALM was the first company to really do a big market penetration and bring PDA to every rich person that could afford one back then, but now, clearly, microsoft is catching up rapidly, and I'd tend to see PALM pulling a netscape within a few years.
If PALM was such in a good shape, It wouldn't be that low eventho the market is flatlining. Of course I'd love to see some competition, but right now the only place they can compete is putting their high-end to the "mid" or "lowend" of the PDA branch and pricing accordingly.
Heck I've seen toys with about the same features then their newer "lowcost" one, for half the price
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
This means that the next Outlook-borne virus will be really tiny! That way it can spread even faster than its ancestors... I think I'll call it - Mini-Me!
db
Cig:
ôô
I think you may be confusing real issues, like current market share, with future, possible issues, like, "I think I'll buy another Palm device." No one knows what the future holds. I hate to use such a trite saying, but it's true. I may buy a Palm for my next PDA, or I may buy a Pocket PC. I may be busy at work tomorrow, or I may not.
The moderator, taken aback, thought about it and then asked; Who would consider buying a wince machine when they buy their next handheld? Around 50% of the audience raised their hands.
People will consider buying something else because no one in their right mind would blindly buy the "next" product in their favorite brand line. Even Mac zealots wait to see what people say about a new design before blindly buying them. I would consider myself remiss if I didn't research the current state of handhelds--i.e., consider--before buying another Palm.
If you look at MS's marketing strategy over the last ten years it has been to overpromise and underdeliver. Who wouldn't consider a Pocket PC device when you listen to the promises that they tout. Streaming wireless video! MP3 player! Cell phone/PDA combo! Sounds great, doesn't it? It's supposed to.
The moderator then asked who thinks that PalmOS has gone as far can with its current architecture? AROUND 70%+ OF THE AUDIENCE RAISED THEIR HANDS AFFIRMATIVELY.
Keep in mind that this is an audience of C|Net, ZDNet, tech-reading people, and the Palm devices have always been bashed in the press for not having features that stack up to Pocket PC's. But the Palm devices continue to grab and hold market share. And this was before Palm's acquisition of Be, and before Palm's stated intention to produce a StrongARM device, and before (IIRC) Palm's release of the m500/m505.
Why? Let me give you a few reasons that I think are the most relevant.
- Price
- Form Factor
- "Zen of Palm"
In case you're wondering, I'm not just shooting off the hip here. I've been a Palm developer since '99, and have watched the two sides pretty closely. I'm not blind to the flaws of Palm, and I do think that Pocket PC devices are getting better, but until the prices come down and the form factor improves, I don't see them beating Palm.Most Palm devices sell from between $129 - $449. Most CE devices sell from between $399 - $650. (The new Jornada will retail for $599 vs. $449 for a m505.) And consumers have shown time and time again that they will buy the cheaper product--airline tickets, PC's, and yes, handhelds.
I don't think MS gets it: I'm sure they've been told time and time again, but it doesn't matter how many features you cram into a device, if you can't get it small enough to fit in (not on) the palm of your hand and/or fit in a pocket, you've already got a strike against you.
If you want to make a great handheld, keep it light (less than 6oz), keep it narrow (less than 4") and keep it thin (less than 1", and then closer to paper thin the better). PDA's that are 1.5" and 2" thick are the bricks of the industry. Look at all sci fi shows and movies. You don't see them lugging around Clancy-novel-thick computers. Thin devices are useful devices.
Everyone talks about Palm's simplicity, but I'm not sure that everyone knows what it really means. Palm's mindset is to give the users what features Palm decides they will need. If only 10 - 20% of users will use a function, they strip it out. Most software developers would cry foul. (Why not give users the options they want!) That thought process might work well on desktops, but doesn't work well on handhelds. On a handheld, people need information quickly. The more taps away their information is from them the less likely it is that they will find it, and hence, use the device.
Palm devices work simply and efficiently. And for the option-crazy, Palm relies on its 3rd-party developers to create the heavy-duty apps. This results in a streamlined OS that really does what it was intended to do. And it doesn't throw in cool stuff, like an MP3 player, just for the sake of being cool. (How many Pocket PC owners really use it?)
Have fun: Join D.N.A. (National Dyslexics Association)
IE 3 sucked so hard
Frame support?
Animated giff support?
Java or javascript support?
Plugin support?
The only thing that ie3 had was that it was free, it came with the os, idiots who don't know what a web browser is, used it.
IE4 was leaps and bounds better than ie 3, and better in some aspects than NS 4.x (one big downfall for ie 4+ was it's intergration of your desktop, another are the IE only code it brought, and lastly it still lacks frame support)
And no, I don't use NS, I use opera, and worth every penny.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive
if the PocketPC was the only thing that mattered then Casio and Jornada would be selling just as well as iPaq. However iPaq managed to make a name for itself and it has fancy hardware. Now that HP bought Compaq we can kiss iPaq goodbye. Furthermore, HP is coming out with a linux Jornada. Think about it-they have the potential to wipe out PocketPC from the face of the earth just like that if they wanted to. They could have a pda with the same hardware as pocketpc's and not have to pay Microsoft for the OS
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Palm looks very much like the Gil Amelio era Apple. They have like 50 zillion different models of the Palm, each one confusingly similar to eachother. They announce a new model every 4 months, only to have it be the exact same hardware in a different case.
Meanwhile, Microsoft keeps improving with every release.
Palm throws out bullshit excuses like, "Users haven't requested MP3 playback, so why give them unnecessary features?" But it's a tota load of crap. There's no reason to still be using a 30mhz Dragonball CPU in 2001. The fuckin' GameBoy Advance is $89 and it has digital sound hardware in it. Get a clue, Palm.
Originally, Microsoft was criticized for trying to stuff everything but the kitchen sink into PDAs--but now the hardware is getting powerful enough and the OS good enough by pure brute force on MS's part.
Much like the overtaking of Netscape by Microsoft. Netscape had a confident %80-90 share of the browser space. And look at them now.
It's all over for Palm.
Unless they consolidate down to 2 or 3 models. Each one with some FAT CPU power running BeIA with a full-featured Palm emulator for old apps.
By the end of next year?
Say goodbye to more of Palm's marketshare.
They can't possibly sell all these new models while warehouses are still loaded with old Palm IIIcs, Vs, whatever.
STOP WITH THE INCREMENTAL UPGRADES!
This goes (to a lesster degree) to Handspring as well. They're almost as bad. Visor Edge? Is this necessary?
Why does Microsoft need to release a whole new version of the OS just to add Bluetooth? Palm is just going to patch it, no need to alienate the 2MB Palm users, but the 16 and 8MB PPC users won't get the full version of Merlin. How fair is that?
PocketPC is no more integrated with Windows than Palm is. There are programs for Palm that let you view Word, Excel, and even PowerPoint documents, and HotSync has been cleanly integrated from day one.
What's not integrated is the marketing message, which of course is one of Microsoft's core competencies. What is integrated is an 80% share of the market, and a vast catalog of software developed for the needs of a handheld device.
- jon
Ganymede, a GPL'ed metadirectory for UNIX
http://www.microsoft.com/mobile/pocketpc/pocketpc2 002/upgrade.asp
This was previously a problem with some manufactures (CASIO for example), that they needed to replace the device for upgrade.
But this could also mean, than a new generation of Palm-Size devices will roll out, that can be upgraded to a /different/ OS. Given, that Palm also moves to ARM (which is the only supported CPU for PocketPC 2002) and the various succesful *NIX ports to the ARM/Palm platforms (iPAQ as reference), we can probably hope to have choices which OS we want to run on our devices.
Marquise
-- I need a new sig.
IMHO, Palm and PocketPC are both competing in different markets. Comparing one with the other is like (excuse the cliche), comparing apples with bananas :).
... then I guess PocketPC is where you'll be headed.
If you want a lightweight, small, sexy looking fast loading organizer, get a palm.
If you want a desktop computer in your palm
Jerrold.
'wince'? 'M$'? Grow up. You're not winning anyone over to your way of thinking if you're going to stoop to childish name-calling. You're just embarassing yourself.
Look at this in comparison to the fields microsoft has stomped out: palm has survived. It's the third round where microsoft wins or dominates, and wince 3 just didn't cut it. So ms, floundering, tries for 4.0 . . . they may be too late . . .
A more proper analogy would be a Honda Civic and a Lincoln Navigator
Hi all,
there's an interesting new article over on the Compaq website about the upgrade of current iPAQs to Merlin (PocketPC 2002):
"You made a great decision when you purchased your iPAQ Pocket PC!
Compaq will offer an upgrade to Microsoft Pocket PC 2002 for the iPAQ Pocket PC H3600 and H3100 Series.
You can place your order starting September 17, and shipments of the upgrade CD will begin in mid-October.
* If you purchased the iPAQ Pocket PC H3600 or H3100 Series between September 6, 2001 and November 30, 2001, your upgrade is free*.
(*You only pay for shipping, handling, and applicable tax for the upgrade CD.)
The process will involve completing and printing a form, then mailing or faxing it to Compaq, along with your proof of purchase.
* If you purchased the iPAQ Pocket PC before September 6 or after Nov 30, the upgrade will cost $29.95. Shipping, handling, and applicable taxes will be added to this amount.
Return to this site on or after September 17 to request or order the upgrade. "
The URL is here (thanks to Dave's Compaq iPAQ site for the original source of this news).
This comes after Compaq's announcement that "Customers can be assured that any iPAQ Pocket PC purchased today is upgradable to future Pocket PC software--a feature unique to the iPAQ."
I think this is pretty bad form on Compaq's part. First they announce that all current iPaqs will support Pocket PC 2002, with the wording of the announcement strongly reassuring potential buyers that it's really OK to buy one now, then they announce that they'll only supply the OS upgrade to people who've bought one from the 6th onward! Since I just bought an H3630 (ordered it on the 29th August) partly due to this announcement, I feel a little cheated. Compaq should supply the upgrade free to everyone who ordered an iPaq on or after the day they announced that the current generation would support the new OS.
% 20tag=mn_hd
Of course it does depend on how much the upgrade costs for us non-eligible owners, if it's say GBP30 (USD 50 or so) then while there'd be a fair bit of grumbling, most users would be willing to pay this (assuming there are significant reasons to upgrade).
As for whether it'll fit into the 16MB flash ROM, well according to most reports I've read on the misc. Pocket PC sites there'll be TWO versions of Pocket PC 2002, a scaled down one for all the current devices and the full version for the next-gen machines. There's more info at CNet here
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-7025389.html
Oh, I might as well part with a few iPAQ links of my own (in no particular order):
http://www.tekguru.demon.co.uk/
http://www.pdatweaks.com/
http://www.ludipocket.co.uk/
http://www.pdageek.com/
http://www.pdabuzz.com/
palm really sucks, they dare to charge a $200 premium for palms with only 8meg ram compared to the lower 2meg models.
Thats just plain evil when chips cost $8
PocketPC2002 looks realy promising... kudos to M$ for fixing so many issues brought up by customers.
And, the new HP units look really sweet: they weigh between 6 and 7 oz, have a removable battery!, a 14 hour battery life (without backlight), and a CF slot.
That said, PocketPC is not light years ahead of PalmOS as so many CE zealots claim. Yes, PocketPC has many advantages, but so does PalmOS. It depends on your needs.
The Sony Clie's battery life with backlighting is as good as the new HPs' without backlighting. The Sony weighs 5.6 oz, has better formfactor for one-handed use, has a higher resolution (but smaller) screen, and you can get the N610C for $320! (a little over half the price of the new HP 64MB unit)
Like I wrote, PocketPC has advantages (especially if you need multimedia or multitasking instead of taskswitching), but it's still inefficient for a handheld OS compared to PalmOS (hence the high memory, CPU, and battery requirements). There are a few things you can do on PocketPC that you can't do with a Palm, but not many (Palms are not just organizers; they have databases, spreadsheets, word processors, etc...).
So, the Sony Clie is still smaller, lighter, cheaper, and easier to use for most computing tasks. PocketPCs can do multitasking and multimedia (BTW, the Clie 710C plays MP3s, but it's $80 more than the 610C and movie playback still sucks).
Choose the platform that fits your needs. For most users, I suspect the Sony is still a better choice.
Yeah, this is getting off topic, but I found your quote about the new Pocket PC's reminding you about the ST data pads really funny.
Have you ever noticed that the data pads get handed out with the information already in them? Crew members are not assigned a pad which has new information or instructions beamed to it. Don't they have the technology?
If that is what Microsoft has in mind, Palm has very little to worry about. Actually, that's probably not true. History has shown that people will take a product with less features and lower quality if the marketing dept does a good enough job (Beta V. VHS, LaserDisc V. VCR, MiniDisc v. CD, Windows v. OS/2, etc).
Thanks! for the GREAT RESPONSE! It's posts like yours that make putting up with the flamers and trolls possible, like the ironically-deprived(entendre*3), humourless, M$ Troll above and below us. Though i agree with most of your analysis, let me respond to a several things you said. it'a little long, but you raised numerous good points.....first the original question i answered was;
/.'s for talking so long...
"Why should Palm respond to a MS palm with an implementation using an OS unproven on its platform. Extolling the fashionable alternatives just to say it point to a clear lack on thoughtfullness. "
I responded with a personal anecdote centered on a large group of media and analysts. I choose this because the people in that room were; early adopters, important recommenders and media journalists. All of whom have an important function in the success or failure of any product. Your point that;
"Keep in mind that this is an audience of C|Net, ZDNet, tech-reading people, and the Palm devices have always been bashed in the press for not having features that stack up to Pocket PC's."
is true. It's also the reason i chose to bring this anecdote up. These people are important to the success or failure of Palm, not determinative, but important.
"But the Palm devices continue to grab and hold market share. And this was before Palm's acquisition of Be, and before Palm's stated intention to produce a StrongARM device, and before (IIRC) Palm's release of the m500/m505."
Palm's market share is 10X that of the wince devices, BUT, wince sales are doubling every month, IDG Gartner/InfoWorld have confirmed that. PalmCo is losing major share to Handspring. And price cuts have already occurred on the new m5XX series, that's NOT a GOOD sign.
Palm will have to deal with the fact that CE has come a very long way since v1. Look at very recent CE developments.......
1. M$ has lowered the license cost of CE quite substantially. AND is cutting some ***nice*** terms on the side
2, M$ is making very genuine and sincere efforts to reach handheld developers and provide lots of developer tools, help and assistance. M$ also has some of their very best people working on the handheld/embedded space, smart, hardworking, customer saavy folk like Bill Vegthe. People CAN really make the difference in a tech sector
3. M$ has used a subset of Win32 in the development of CE that is known by and appeals to the largest base of app developers in the world.
4. M$ is putting "Big Heat" into their ISV channel to get CE projects off the ground. M$ has the best marketing skills of any tech company in the world. Palm is only starting to develop the kind forward marketing that M$ is capable of.
Now to deal quickly with all three of your bulleted items. Again, they are ALL true, TODAY. What about tomorrow? This sector is very young.
PRICE: pricing is mostly a function (device for device) of volume, and as Palm goes to the high color screens that most CE machines use, the CE machines price will come down towards the Palm prices as their manufacturing volume rises. the Global 2000 companies that mfg CE machines can really take advantage of economies of scale when they are available. PocketPC Prices WILL drop.
FORM FACTOR: This was covered quite a bit in the COMDEX presentation. I struggle with it all the time. What is the "right size" for a sub-notebook device. Palm has in its PalmOS 3 and 4 devices, hit pretty close to a perfect blend of size for function. However, if the MARKETPLACE decides that it wants the ability to do color jpegs, mpegs, pngs, gifs, etc with a handheld the "Palm sized" device screen size will be a liability. The jury is out on that one right now. This gives Palm a decided form factor edge, for now. That will be demand driven and could change at any time.
ZEN OF PALM: There is NO question to this point in handheld development that Palm has gotten it right. However, we're talking about the future. Having owned early Palms and early CE machines, Palm blew away CE for usability, were pocketable and had great battery life. My Color Companion is one of the greatest slayers of batteries i have ever seen, worse than early HP handheld calculators (HP55, great calculator bring lots of batteries). But, as i understand both from COMDEX and from the 2001 M$ Embedded DevCon (GREAT! event,THX!)...
...M$ is betting on the evolving needs of handheld users going towards multimedia and other rich(er) data experiences, with something like MP3 being the "next frontier"...how easy is it to get MP3 playing on a Palm and how cheap? to the degree that its doable, its expensive, now you're Palm in in iPaq/Journada territory
HERE'S WHAT I'M AFRAID IS GOING TO HAPPEN: Palm won't evolve PalmOS fast enough to keep up with falling CE machine prices, and the "value" equation will start to leans towards CE. The industry media, which as you pointed out, is not all that friendly to Palm, will start giving numerous "Editors' Choice", "Top 5" and "Must Buy!" awards to CE machines (they already are to the iPaq (BEST CE MACHINE, have u tried one?) and the momentum will start to swing towards the CE platform, Then, once the Mo' starts to go, M$ will put in a, say a billion dollar broadcast marketing campaign, and that will push the Mo further towards CE.
Meanwhile, Palm (now cash starved from repeated price cutting) will sit on its current laurels and not introduce kernel level improvements that will allow its internal or 3rd party developers to keep up with the rate of change in handhelds' features and all of a sudden there will be a CE machine with; 24-bit color, built in MP3 player, PCMCIA slot, OS level tcp/ip, BROADBAND/80211.b wireless connectivity, the ablity to play either ported or native Gameboy Advanced games and a price level between $300 and $400 (what a Rio 800 costs, IOW)....that machine COULD appear in the next 12-16 months!!!!
If that's where the handheld marketplace is going, M$ absolutely believes it is, i tend to agree, is Palm ready for that upcoming market? From what i've seen Palm is giving out a lot of "It's Perfect the way it is!" and "PocketPC features are largely superflous and not within the scope of OUR vision".
I say Palm has to OUT INNOVATE M$, whether those innovations fall in the scope of the existing "Zen of Palm", or not. As the Bud(ha)said; when you are in zen, the mountain is NOT the mountain..well, Palm's mountain may be NOT the mountain..could be time to move forward fast
Well, betting against the tide of technological evolution and improvment is a risky thing. I'd rather see Palm take action early against a possible paradigm shift then wait till it hits them in the head. Playing catch up to M$ in your own sector historically is; expensive, complex and usually unsuccessful...you can ask ashton-tate,Oz2, borland, lotus and novell...
SORRY Fellow
Ten quid, she's so easy to blind. And not a word is spoken...
Well, I think IE3 beat out Netscape 3 b/c of its stability, as well as its support for additional tags such as iframe, and its ability to correctly display html even with nonstandard nesting of tags...
Amazing magic tricks