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Aqua Mozilla OK with Apple
MikeMo writes: "Turns out Apple thinks an Aqua Mozilla is OK, after all. Eric Yang had a chat with them and they made up." This is an update to this story.
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I'm not familiar enough with the "real" Aqua products to understand what just went down here.
It sounds to me like Apple did say it was okay to make an Aqua-like Mozilla -- but only using the "real" Apple tools, and therefore (purely my extrapolation) for Mac OS X users only. Aqua look-and-feel through "emulation" is still strictly forbidden.
Yes?
If this is the case, then the Slashdot was not overreacting at all -- it's still a "legitimate Aqua" sues "homebrew Aqua look" issue in which all non-MacOS users are forbidden from using nice shiny sea-blue widgets, etc.
Or am I misunderstanding?
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
That's why they don't care about an Aqua theme for Mozilla
From the article: "What Apple objected to was not Aquafying Mozilla, but rather the way I was doing it via emulation, thus not giving Mozilla users a pure Aqua experience. Apple is willing to provide information for creating real Aqua experience for Mozilla."
Does Apple mean they insist that Mozilla use native OS X widgets if it wants to look like an Aqua application? From my (admittedly limited) understanding of the Mozilla architecture, this is impossible. Mozilla's appearance is all defined at run-time, and everything including its own buttons, menus, scroll bars, is a Mozilla custom component, not part of the OS standard UI toolkit.
Am I wrong? Please correct me. But it seems like the only thing you could do would be to write your own browser using native widgets, and embed the Gecko rendering engine, ala Galeon. Mozilla's not going to give you a "pure Aqua experience" unless you rewrite it from scratch.
-- Some things are to be believed, though not susceptible to rational proof.
So when are people allowed to discuss something else then? Will you forgive me if i get on with my life and don't think of the New York attack at least once a minute?
Strangely enough, many of the stories on Slashdot have nothing to do with the attack. Have you just noticed? Perhaps you should go and read CNN instead. I'm sure it'll be much more to your liking.
Because I was about to start boycotting Apple products too. I think companies don't realize that consumers these days really DO have an opinion on the things they buy, and if the business participates in disagreeable business practices, lots they will indeed lose customers. Responsible consumerism is getting popular, and it's nice to see a company like apple that isn't so arrogant that they won't change their minds abot something so trivial.
Slashcode really needs to automirror anything mentioned in a story that isn't set to expire...
OK, now that we have this update, there are two courses of action, beloved Slashdot posters:
- Complain that Apple isn't open-sourcing the OS, so they suck anyway.
- Suggest that Apple sucks because you can't run OS X on non-Apple machines.
Have at it!
go get it
As it is now on the OS X system, Aqua is very limited in preferences like color schemes and such when compared to other GUI systems like Windows or KDE. By having it elsewhere, it opens the door for more customization. If others like that ability, it may encourage Apple to add such features to Aqua.
At least I hope so. The link above appears slashdotted and I cant see it (yet). I hope Apple left the door open for those kind of customizations.
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
Don't forget: - Bitch that Apple sucks because they only use a one button mouse - Squawk that Apple sucks because OS X has those annoying "Dock" icons and transparent windows and weird red, yellow, and green buttons and anyway the interface was better in system 6 - Mutter that Apple sucks because you lost a lot of money on their stock - Grouse that Apple sucks because they just fucking suck Have I missed any?
sulli
RTFJ.
Didnt they make a track called "Barbie Girl"?
----- Whats wrong with this picture? http://www.revoh.org:1234/whatswrong
But who says Apple never ripped off MS?
The custom toolbar in IE 5 for Mac was taken and tweaked to be used in the custom finder for OS X!
I think little things like this go both ways.
People think Microsoft is the answer. Microsoft is just the question, "No" is the answer.
They just released version 0.5 and it is just great. Solid browser, fast and easy on memory. Cool features in security prefs to turn off pop-ups without turning javascript off.
...where are the skins? I didn't see them on his site, did you?
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
is a native browser for OSX ala Galeon on linux. In other word we need a new project called something like Aqueon or cocoaeon Or is there a project like this already.
That's a good question. They do publish a few php books (er, more accurately they print the help files and faq and sell them), but I think they also publish some asp books.
I talked with their IS people about this once, and they use Windows NT/IIS since it's more secure than linux/apache, is faster, works under high loads, and doesn't go down like a cum-guzzling queen.
PHP is available for IIS, though. I think they're using ASP since PHP can't interface with MSQL databases, but I'm not sure.
0-2, they've only scored one field goal thus far, and they just cut Jeff George. In case you wondered.
This upsets me a little. I understand where Apple is coming from on this issue of "look-and-feel" because I can wholeheartedly respect the amount of work that goes into a successful user interface. It is very difficult to get everything working correctly, seamlessly and most of all... I hate it when I forget words. The word I wanted to use means that something can be operated with little instruction, using only common sense. You get the picture.
IMO, the user interface is the most difficult part of the system to make. There are so many rules and exceptions to those rules, and components have to interact with each other in ways that really don't make any sense. Design from a user's perspective is difficult, especially if you're trying to be (I hate to use this cuss word) "innovative." Design from a programmer's perspective is hell. Implementation is nothing short of a nightmare.
So when they get upset over someone using Aqua on a system that isn't Mac OS, I can totally understand. However, on the other hand, if I understood this story correctly, the Aqua interface was implemented as a theme FOR Mac OS. Now what upsets me is this: yes, I respect the work they put into Aqua, but they, on the other hand, clearly do NOT respect the colossal amount of work the Mozilla folks put into their browser. Why should it matter to Apple what Mozilla does? If Mozilla was a commercial product, and source code was not available publically, would Apple ever know or care how it was implemented? They say they want to be a part of the open source community and stuff, but I say "nay nay."
As a side note, I honestly prefer a simple command line interface, because it's so much easier to make and use. Personally, I don't know why the Windows and MacOS interfaces are mimicked so widely as they're clearly far from optimal. Windows is good for nothing. MacOS (I've used versions 7.x through 9) is great for running graphical applications where 99% of the input comes from the mouse. Its keyboard interface, on the other hand, is terrible IMO--even if you know all the shortcut keys. I might give OS X a try someday, just because it's based on BSD (I swear by the BSDs). Personally, I like to use the keyboard for 99% of the input, and the mouse as a supplimentary input device for when it's more convenient to click. I remember shipping air freight through Delta. Up until six months ago or so, they had old computer terminals with keyboard-only interfaces and old-school textual displays. The folks who worked there frankly didn't care how the text screen looked as long as it got the job done. And it did. One day, I stroll in there with a few packages and their system was changed... to Windows. It was probably one of those glossy sales presentations that got those things in there. The employees weren't even told about it--they came to work that day and their system was different, and there were no instructions. I remember how the guy had to click on a hundred different things with the mouse, move to the keyboard and punch in a few things, move back to the mouse and click on another hundred or so pretty pictures... in short, what used to take a minute or two by pushing a few keys now took about ten minutes, with most of the time spent clicking on things and moving between the keyboard and the mouse. Not only did Delta spend Lord-knows how much money on that new "system" but they lost productivity too. For what?! To be "user friendly?" To be "easy?" (Like AOL.) Why not just use the alleged "unfriendly" system, and just teach new employees the keys before putting them in front of that thing. The point of this side note is that graphical systems were originally invented for doing graphical work. Nowadays, this graphical system is used in places where a text one would actually be a better choice.
Man, is there even enough consumer support for people *to* boycott apple?
I mean, I own a Mac, but I was wondering how many other people do...
GPL Deconstructed
What worries me most is Apple's sense of priorities. They seem quite happy for someone to re-implement QuickTime for Linux as a third-party, yet they sue someone who creates a skin that looks like Aqua.
Does Apple think that colourful buttons are more valuable intellectual property than their video layer which they've spent the last 10 years developing?
Not that I mind QT for Linux, but the point stands. They'd rather have people buy a Mac for the shiny interface than the powerful graphics tools, or other _real_ technological assets.
I'm an Apple fiend, but sometimes the bods at Apple really leave me wondering...
-- There are three kinds of mathematicians: those who can add and those who can't.
All of this stuff was discussed a year or two ago on MozillaZine. The intellectual property issues were flagged and pooh-poohed, the impossibility of matching the Aqua widgets and behavior with XUL was discussed, and the problems with ignoring the native widgets in favor of a custom widget set were argued endlessly.
None of the custom-widget defenders could find any particular examples of required CSS behaviors that couldn't be done with native widgets. In fact the people who were claiming there were problems of this type seemed very ignorant of the graphics layer capabilities in MacOS (9 and X) and in Windows as well.
The fact is Mozilla went down the wrong path, a bunch of us tried to get them to reconsider, and they just wouldn't budge.
So surprise, everything we predicted has now come to pass.
Sigh
I'm sorry but his explanation of how he "misunderstood" and "overreacted" and how apple was only mad because he wasn't providing a "pure" experience sounds like a bunch of crap to me. I'm sure they just politely explained to him how he must have "misunderstood" because otherwise he would be getting a real good "screwing" from apple. "thank you, goodbye."
Apple probably saw the reaction on slashdot and decided they could backpedal, slightly, get the victim to agree that there had been a misunderstanding (read: coersion), and save some face with the only communities that gives a rats ass about their pretty (read: annoying) interface.
Look at how much modding has been going on. Look at how more than 30 of the posts have been moded down to minus one. Yeah. Looks like the trolls are in force now. What out mods you have lots of work to do now. Yeah go troll. Trolls are powered up. Yeah linux sucks oh yeah you know it does. Yeah bsd is dead yeah you know it is. Keep trollin trollin trollin yeah keep trollin trollin trollin mod down mod down mod down some more yeah! And hey taco you think that 72 hour ban stopped me from posting this message. No way! I saved it and moved to one of hundreds of 'puters at my disposal. So try again. he yeah. Moderation really works well doesn't it. Slashdot sucks ass yeah mod this shit down come on mods. Get going!
Cars still have pistons and steering wheels. Good design doesn't age.
The design of Windows is almost irrelevant since the software engineering that goes into it is so poor. What it takes advantage of is modern computer users.
If you want your shiny blue widgets... you can have XP.
.NET, Hailstorm, Windows Media Player, DirectX, and the XBox, all under the same roof...
I'm a little more scared of Microsoft,
What evils lurk in the Microsoft Future?
Aqua is *the* OS X experience. It's more than just widgets; more than just a semitranslucent title bar, or glassy buttons, and drop shadows.
It's about an uncluttered 'Start bar' (called the Dock). Each App gets a single entry in the Dock, with access to the multiple open windows available through a single 'Window' menu; or if you right click on the app in the Dock, you get a list of the available windows.
It's about a the Apple Menu and a single menu, instead of a menu per Window. This has carried over from the previous OS 9; the foreground App, with User focus, controls the single available menu bar. There doesn't exist a menu for each window (which not only takes up screen real estate, it provides for too many available targets when all you use is a single target) but only a single global menu bar.
It's about minimizing screen clutter and noise. Instead of borders around each window you get a drop shadow; you delineate forground from background apps because the foreground App casts a shadow behind it. The background apps also have transparent title bars. You don't get every open Window listed in the Dock-the OS X Start bar. You don't get a menu bar attached to every window. You don't get a empty grey parent window containing all the child windows of Word or Photoshop.
It's not perfect, certainly, and it is, after all, the vision of a single person, a single company, quite unlike Linux and the Open Source/Free Software community.
There are little things, but mostly it's coherent. Most of the OS widgets are grayed out and monochromatic except when they are in focus or require attention; good visual cues. If you mistype your password when logging in, the login window shakes itself to both clear itself and to let you know you've failed to log in.
It's really, really, nice. Too bad most people are too cheap, or cannot otherwise afford, to play with Macs.
GPL Deconstructed
I must troll even faster than ever before cause Slashcode mod Autobots (da da da du daaa) mod even faster than ever before. Hey mods eat shit. Ok continuing typing crap until that 2 minute counter is up. Remember it is that the quality but rather the sheer quantity of trolling you can do that makes the difference.
GOODBYE yeah that is what these lamo slowzilla linsux guys are. Apple actually has a software buget and spends money and quality time. These guys hack shit to pass the day. Who is going to come out on top?
Now here is the interesting thing about Mozilla and OSX, NOT! Yeah I am getting around that stupid Salshdot 72hour bullshit ban by quickly trolling at very regular 2 minute intervals. I find that the mods can't quite keep up with that pace.
You know.. some things just don't work that well in an anarchy. Witness the failure of the unix desktop. Now.. I'm not slamming it, or trolling, I use it every day, and have for years... but unix still lacks a coherent desktop, even one as poor as Windows has. Why? Because nobody dictates what anyone else has to use. Now.. I'm not a fan of dictatorship.. however...
Apple has a point. They have *always* insisted on using proper API's for the Mac. Why? Because it ensure things WORK, and ensures they can bring out future versions of their OS without breaking stuff. IT's a GOOD thing.
Unlike MS, they don't use their proprietary widgets to corner the application market; the information on how to use them is free to all, no royalties.... no licenses (afiak).. nothing.
All they insist upon is that you use them. AND YOU SHOULD.
Aqzilla and it would be pronounced ACK!-zilla which would be quite appropriate.
Time to troll really hard after all this is a Mac vs Linux story. I mean you can't get two bigger sets of weenies together -- oh wait maybe that should be two smaller sets of weenies yeah.
The mods have slowed down condsiderably. Mods have crashed yeah. Sent them into "im out of point" land. Well that how it goes when you mod early mod often.
I think you mean "intuitive."
< Insert witty quip here>
-Renard
I have only 15 more minutes to troll so I had better make em count. Hey the mods have really died off. That good! Now I can work on getting that troll to nerd ratio back up where it belongs. Now m o d t h i s s h i t d o w n !
Apple wants developers to use interface builder. By doing this you help cut down on various GUI inconsistencies.
The Aqua mozilla project was attempting to build an Aqua GUI buy using GIFs and animated GIFs and whatnot. as most of us know, this was not working very well. The scrollbar didn't quite fit right, defualt buttons were not capable of throbbing without sync problems (since they are made up of multiple parts), yada yada yada, Aqua mozilla kind of looked like an OS X app, but the GUI didn't quite function like one. I imagine that was Apple's #1 problem.
Currently there is a project at Source Forge that is trying to slap a native Aqua UI on top of Mozilla builds. It is possible. http://sourceforge.net/projects/qbati2
Mozilla is actually quite dynamic, and system specific stuff like this is not really a big deal. It's being done all the time with platforms like the MacOS.
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
Why does Apple approve of Qt/Mac then? I brought this up in the previous article. Qt/Mac uses an emulated Aqua style, just like all QStyles.
For Apple to say now that they don't want Mozilla using an emulated style makes zero sense. Unless Apple thinks that the Mozilla team can't do it right. According to a recent interview with Trolltech's president (quoted in this post), Apple worked with Trolltech in Qt/Mac development, maybe to ensure it is done correctly. Either that or Apple specifically gave Trolltech permission through a business deal.
I think there is something we are missing here.
ruined. it's a damned shame how some people just can't handle even the smallest of freedoms. Apple has always been protective of their designs. Can you blame them? Ever since the justice department decided that it's ok to rip them off, anything they design is fair game for poachers.
there's more than one way to do me.
Now that would be interesting but I am afraid it would not work. For one thing mozilla code is just not written properly to interact with Aqua or Cocoa and other high-end Apple tech. Apple is working on making there code working well with there tech. Mozilla is interested in porting to every possible platform. It just isn't going to work. The best course is to keep mozilla out of apple and vice versa
... but that doesn't matter anymore, because the site is Slashdotted and inaccessible.
:)
Maybe Apple figured that Slashdot had taken care of it for them.
Do you like German cars?
You summed it up perfectly.
People who like to work for their computer use Linux, and associated pre-alpha quality software.
People who like their computer to work for them use Windows, and associated polished software gems.
People who get rejected by whores use Macs (particularly the G4 towers with holes on the front), with their shiny interfaces but no software.
Ok, as someone who hops platforms on an hourly basis..hell even a minute by minute depending on the day this is a *good* thing.
Why? Glad you asked.
One of the things I *like* about mozilla/fizilla is that it is *compliant* with good code where I.E on the mac FSCK's it up because I.E allows for mistakes (plus it can never get anchors right on the OS X side...never could figure it out. Mozilla did it perfectly)
But, when you compare the Icons and UI you are confronted yet again with the fact it is a kludge to run under X.
First "bird" is the excellent under pinnings but the *gack/choke* look/feel of Fizilla.
The second "bird" is X/Aqua...same thing as before..excellent underpinnings, but pretty and lackluster speed/function.
(bear in mind that 10.1 is on the launch pad and takes care of the speed issues, so I understand...can't wait, as I type this on X on a G4-400...hehe)
By allowing/showing/inviting/forcing the Mozilla team to Use Cocoa/Aqua's calls the "fuglies" of Fizilla will be banished, stability improved (I hope) and speed increased (and, again, decrease the CPU time the darn thing takes up...almost SETI quality as a benchmark utility...for a web browser? c'mon!!).
Yeah, I'm Using I.E. at the moment, but am a die hard netscape 6 fan (Kmeleon on windows kicks major butt, IMO) as some mac users are. Just looking for that one "good" reason...and it is coming: Aquafied Netscape.
(Kiki voice) Ooooo---pretty!!! (/kiki voice)
Moose.
Huh-huh-huh...you said sig.
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
Uhh. Note. OS X has Omniweb, An opera that doesn't suck, and Internet Explorer. Of which the first two inheirt the Aqua widget set. IE has basic aqua widgets. Mozilla has its own widget set which is fugly and themes aint going to fix that. Now... Why use it? IE on Mac is still incredibly better than IE for windows. Opera is faster than both and its not as ugly as the Linux version of opera (Why in the sam hell do people still use Linux?) Oh well.
Groovy
Apple's point translates further than just using widgets. Anyone who has used their "Interface Builder" knows that it attempts to force certain things on the developer. There are 'strict' guidelines about how things should line up and how far they should be from the edge of the screen etc etc. The interface builder does more than suggest, it actual has 'snap to' rulers and has very specific rules about window resizing.
Basically they figured that if they are going to have a design spec for an application they might as well make it easy for the developer to follow.
Fear trumps hope and ignorance trumps both
So you get the look of a button without any of the native widget.
I once spent some time with a guy at netscape implementing a new protocol which basically took advantage of that.
You wrote something like:
theme://button?title=OK
and it returned a GIF containing a perfect looking OK button in the present Mac OS theme, be that Platinum on OS 9 or Aqua on OS X.
The code to do this is here:t ocol/theme/
http://lxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/netwerk/pro
Finshing this work would allow very high quality Aqua themes, as it wouldn't be "as" emulated. The OS would be drawing all of the controls.
This would also satisfy Apple - they don't really care about Aqua themes so much as making sure those themes *only* work on Mac OS. As the theme: protocol needs native code to work, it will only run on Mac OS (9 or X)
The theme protocol might also be needed on Linux (window manager theme support) and to do Windows XP properly.
Lord Pixel - The cat who walks through walls
A little bigger on the inside than out
It seems from the comments that nobody cares about the fact that Apple is overstepping their bounds. I can almost see them not wanting to integrate Aqua into another "theme" But into other applications, such as Mozilla is totally rediculous. It's like if you patented a car which used a motor that you didn't create, you could sue someone for making a motorcycle wich used the same motor. Though Apple was the first to use this Theme, it's useless without a application, or GUI to put it in, Just as a Motor is useless without a car or a motorcycle.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
[...] and ensures they can bring out future versions of their OS without breaking stuff.
Huh. If I remember correctly, Apple has been pretty consistant with saying "Oh, that app needs to be updated to run on our new OS" -- not to mention "Oh, our new OS only runs on our newer hardware".
Can't Beat the Real Thing?
Heh...who needs lawyers, just rip off Coke's slogans.
Moose.
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
Apple seem to be saying "Don't use a skin to emulate Aqua, as the appearance, and behaviour, of Aqua is subject to change [may just be small tweaks, but changes none-the-less]. If you're going to have an app that looks like Aqua, damn well use the proper way (ie APIs) rather than making bitmaps that just happen to look like the current implementation of Aqua."
Apple have a very long history of trying to make sure apps on the mac all behave the same way (wherever possible). This leads to a smooth user experience. Apple also don't charge you the earth to get their guidelines. Go see This Page for an example of the excellent work Apple have put into the field.
I don't have a problem with someone insisting that something is done the correct way. It's less likely to break further down the track and is going to be easier to adapt to any changes Apple make to their [First Generation] Aqua GUI.
Specialist Mac support for creative pros, Melbourne
The Q.Bati seemed to be trying to put a Mac OS X interface in front of gecko. Unfortunately it seems to be vaporware :(
It has a way to go before it can beat OmniWeb. I love that browser.
photosMy Photostream
There was stuff to download from there site. Thats not vapor. Vaporware is the sourcforge projects that got nothing to download.
Consistency is of paramount importance in UI design. Without consistency your HCI is completely useless to the first time user.
Or shove it up your ass Apple!!!
Also, let this post serve as an announcement of my new 'BlueNose' look.
I paint a shiny blue Dot on my nose.
Don't let me catch you using my "blueNose" look unless it's to be used on my face!!!
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
Didn't Apple already lose a lawsuit about look and feel already?
people download an aqua theme for whatever, use it for a week, get tired of it and go to another. there is a *big* difference between an aqua theme and aqua running on quartz. see the screen shots and it looks very annoying, use it and it grows on you fast.
mostly the look of aqua is unecisary. if the windows widgets were ported to quartz, it would be a much better experience than windows 2000 (haven't used xp).
i am sure alot of slashdotters have tried out some of the themes since this story went up, found them borring, and are loudly wondering why apple is standing by such a lousy interface. they are not, they are trying to kill (or help to be better) a cheap knock off.
i must laud the mozilla theme author, but the theme sucks--mozilla was never meant to keep up with quartz/aqua. one of the comments i remember from his progress log was trying to get a button to throb, and mozilla doing it horribly. apple might have supported more of these themes had they worked cross platform and as well as aqua/quartz, as a teaser, but as they were they were not going to make any converts.
even (especialy?) on os x modern3 is better than the aqua theme, but a good aqua/quartz interface to mozilla would be great.
...wonder what is possible with svg once it lands?
a brief discourse on the viability of Apples in future workstation enviroments.
By: a 31337 slashdot user.
Apples suck!!! They suck because there is no command line interface like the one I use in the terminal box in Xtrees86 and they ripped off linux.
in his new book, "I am not a gay scandinavian, okay maybe just a little.", Linus clearly states: "aPPles SuQUE d00dz!!!"
Apple MaCinSUCKZ also suck because my friend mike told me they suck. Mike is so cool, he has a tattoo and has sex with a real girl.
w00t w00t w00t!!!
OSX Sucks because it is slow. Mike said it is slow. when i am... um.. compiling... um.. CODE! yeah, i demand speed. also, graphics distract me. i need to focus all my attention on pr0n... NO! I mean CODE! Coding and compiling that is what i do. It not only ripped off linux but it is so slow because the guys at apple are dumb, far less capible then any 31337 slashdot user like us! right d00dz?! They messed up when they ripped off linux.
I used to be an 31337 Windows HaX0r, but then mom got rid of aol and my aohell programs didn't work any more. But then Mike showed me astalavista and there were programs that made me a 31337 HaX0r again.
Apples suck!!
Avie who?
Then once MaximumPC (the only magazine worth reading except from NextGen) had put Mandrake Linux on the free CD.
I knew installing Linux would make me a HaX0r.
But it was hard, and I could not get the stuff my mom bought with this computer from the gateway store like the printer to work. Mom was mad she lost all the MicroSUCKS Word files she needed and got fired.
Mom is a bitch. I am an 31337 HaXor.
Apples suck because they do anything and nothing works on them and they suck.
So my mom and my sister went out to get a computer for themselves. I have drilled a blowhole in my gateway AMD 700MHz Athlon and installed a 500watt powersupply to drive the 54 fans. I overclocked my "DREAM MACHINE" to 1.9 GHz. It may only run for 18 minutes max, but it fucking RULZ.
ALL OF YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!!!! RIGHT GUYZ??!!
They bought a shitty Imac on sale for $700, IT IS SO GAY!!!!! FAG APPLE SuckyMac is what I call it.
It is a G3 (whatever the fuck those are) 500MHz (heh so 1999)... and it is a piece of shit.
Oh sure my sister says that she uses it in college to "edit digital Video". She is a stupid slut.
My sister will never be 31227 haX0r.
Oh what the fuck is a macromedia flash?
W00t!
And um. Can anyone tell me where I can find some new HaX0r CoDZ?
please mod me up.
right click things on a mac, given the 1button mouse? is this the "right" button, or are 2button mice used now? this is not meant to be anything but a question, it is not spam.
Now, I thought we had been through all this. I thought you had grown a brain and learned to at least Troll intelligently without being such a whiner.
What, all that cold air up there freezing your brain? No one wants to hear you whine, cheesehead. If you don't like Slashdot, don't come here. If you don't want to get modded down, post comments that are on topic without whining .
Otherwise, piss off!
If you're going to troll, please leave my country out of your sig. You're giving the rest of us Canadians a bad name.
Thank you.
Tell it like it is? Okay!
Your lame and half-assed attempt at insightful humor reveals you to be a substandard intellect.
I recommend you continue with your silence. Fag.
How is posting the contents from the linked article in a Slashdot story Informative??
Hey, idiots: We all went there! We all read the story! I wasn't informed by the above post, BECAUSE I READ THE ARTICLE!!
That post is nothing more or less than Karma-whoring at its simplest and worst.
*whew* Yes, I feel better now, thank you.
Its not that fact that he was trying to "Aquafy" it through "emulation" that pissed off Apple, its the fact that this Aqua theme would be available to users on other platforms (Linux/Windows).
Apple's aim with Aqua is brand identiy. They want Aqua instantly associated with Apple. They don't want there to be any question about it.
This follows the same logic they used when they sued three companies over iMac knockoffs. They wanted the "look and feel" of an iMac to be instantly recognizeable and associated ONLY with Apple. Even if you thought the iMac was butt-ugly, it stood out from run-of-the-mill beige PCs. It cried out that the Mac was alive and well, and assured that people would remember the design.
Granted, there have been a number of iMac inspired computers, but Apple has choosen its battles well.
The same goes for Aqua. I've seen a number of "Aqua inspired" designs, but the ones where an author obviously went in and copied and pasted Apple's UI elements into a theme file have all been brought to a quick end.
Ok, maybe I'm stupid (flame away!), but can you really download the Enterprise pilot? I just searched around on google for a bit and couldn't find it. I forgot about it, had other plans, didn't tape it, would love to watch it.
He'p me!
Here are some screen shots of OmniWeb. Even if you are a Linux user go anyway and admire it! This one is good for showing off MacOSX's interface as well.
I run machines that are not OS X. I run Linux and BSD for instance. Are the Aqua libs available for these platforms? What am I suppose to do to get Aqua L&F and function for Mozilla under KDE on my BSD machine now? (If I wanted to say...)
Never mind the fact that I don't know if Aqua is enough. Maybe we need to make a better Aqua that is open??
Earlier in the last article some one stated that this project was only theming over a "half-assed" GUI and not true Aqua, so Apple is objecting to this.
The "half-assed" GUI is KDE and GNOME? They are making their way to becoming cool. What starts half-assed soon becomes cool. (Think terminals -- the "emulated" ones, started becoming really cool after the DEC original vt's started advancing and a standard was assumed.) Some of the features of Aqua will likely start to show up in KDE. That is how software is written. Eric was helping KDE and Mozilla become cool on all platforms both aesthetically and functionally! Apple shut this down.
Not only was Eric's Aqua stuff a theming exercise, but the authors of the base packages should understand it was an attempt to unify UI under these environments and help out in furthering a common themed interface that looks good and has been proven to work. Most of all that is consistent!
It is unfortunate that someone doesn't start a project to do this with-out using Apple's property. We really do need a common and deliberate unification of functional, and look and feel elements with innovation in our X GUI environments, frameworks and applications. We can do this with-out Apple!
--- Delta0.. makes no difference.
(O)
Hemos
Posting anonymously to preserve my precious karma.
The solution is easy... we're not an anarchy but a democracy in the *nix desktop world.
We get to vote which framework our apps will be in. We have a choice. In fact, we can switch leaders after a certain amount of time.
We don't have a dictator. But we have a challenge because there is more than one government. The consequences are our responsibility as we made the decision of which to use.
When we decide which to use, that will make or break certain features of our environment.
But the beauty is, we can have both running at the same time or on different machines, chose a a different government! Try doing that in the real world.
--- Delta0.. makes no difference.
Nobody cares about your whining you AC coward. Anonymous Pancake brings up many good points. Now go to hell
Well I can type out those names "properly" just fine - the quality required is not maturity. At the same time I rarely do. Because giving them the names that the Co. behind them prefers grants them an illusion of legitimacy they do not deserve.
Want to talk about maturity? Whatever you may think of my opinion of Microsoft, it is certainly mature. I converted from Apple to DOS at version 3.0. (Before I used Apple I hacked, in the oldest meaning of the word, involving soldering irons and opcodes, on hardware I'm sure you've never heard of.) I've used every Microsoft OS since DOS 3, either personally or professionally or both. I've had the time to study the MS way in action, over many many years and many many upgrades. And I don't think they deserve the courtesy of typing out there name "properly" on a regular basis. If that means you won't read my posts... oh, hurt me. Your choice, your loss.
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
Dragging buttons around to customize an app is over a decade old. MS just appropriated it from Apple before Apple put it in OS X.
Either the author is right or the author is wrong. So, is the author right, or is the author wrong, genius? All this 'objectivity' crap is a red herring.
It kind of uses the native Mac appearance, but not the exact widgets...what I mean is that the pop up menu does use the system font as set in the control panel and the scroll bars will match the configuration set in the appearance control panel, but Mozilla's still doing most of the work. And this is something that's been improving over time, as in previous milestones, there was no popup menu if you held down the mouse button on a page -- you had to right-click or control-click, and the menu font was always Charcoal (the default mac system font), no matter if you were using something else system-wide. Now it's a simple click-and-hold, just like Netscape 4.x or IE. So I'd bet that Mozilla can be made to use native Aqua widgets to a large degree; it may not use them everywhere (like buttons, etc.) but then neither does IE under OSX (it uses, for example, rounded-region quick-draw style buttons in forms) or even iTunes, which insists on using blue as its highllight/scrollbar color even though I have the system set to use graphite...whew, unintentionally long post. Here's a screenshot if that made no sense.
Female Prison Rape in NY
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text)...
luke...I mean, Aqua, c'mon... we're talking eye candy here....
"You must try to forget all you have learned. You must begin to dream." -- Sherwood Anderson
As I said.. I'm not knocking it. Sure... gnome or kde are decent desktops. Sure they are. But they are not A STANDARD. There are TOO MANY STANDARDS for unix.. and that's why the desktop is just not as friendly as it could be. Sure... gnome is great.. but does *everyone* write gnome apps? No, hardly. Same for kde.
I'm not saying a particular desktop is no good.. only that, in general, there is no proper standardization. There are plenty available, yes.. but the community does not agree.
I'm not saying that Gnome or KDE or (insert new desktop project here) sucks, or that it's not good enough. I use both, and they are fantastic. Yes, you can get your users to use them. They are good.
But there is still too much variation in the unix world for the desktop to be truly standard. Yes, there are lots of great potential standards.. but the community at-large doesn't pick one. I mean.. in linux, it looks like gnome will be it eventually, maybe... but still. What should a linux developer use for his apps? Gnome? Kde? All? How do you pick?
I'm also not saying that Apple isn't being a bully.. I'm not speaking as to whether, legally, they have a leg to stand on with their 'look and feel' stuff.
What I'm saying is that I agree wtih the concept that certain things, if dicatated properly, should be controlled centrally. If they say these are the widgets you should use for writing apps, it keeps the playing field level and fair. Apple doesn't hide things from you, or keep some secret for themselves so they can make better apps than you.. that's Microsoft's ballgame...The devloper kits are free.. and Apple has a very good GUI.
To the guy who talks about apple telling people to upgrade their apps to the new OS for the new hardware? GOOD. Otherwise, you end up with the god-awful mess we have with windows, where nobody is sure exactly what will run where.. or exactly what a new upgrade will do to their application.
And if you use their API's, such requests are easy.
If apple can exert a bit of pressure, no matter which way, and get people to stick to the same desktop interface.. good for them.
I agree with your comment that UNIX failed as a desktop; the problem was not coherence, but the dated ideas behind the CDE, which every distro but Linux went to it seems. The CDE looks dated next to Windows 3.1 in my opinion.
:)
However, with Sun adopting (or saying they'll adopt, this is Sun after all) Gnome, Linux and Solaris will be largely on a consistent platform that can mature in to a good environment. I've used Sun's pre-release build of Gnome (and we provide it in our CS lab) and it certainly is "coherent" with Gnome on Linux.
Linux and Solaris are the lion share of the workstation market, so if people are doing the same on both platforms that will have a lot of momentum.
NO KDE v. Gnome flames please.
I piss on Mecca. I menstruate on the Koran. I shit on Mohammed.
you dont need a mac. you need tools to do your job a SUN or Intel box can do as well as any MAC and are used every day.
The Macintosh interface has subtle features that make things more efficient. For example, to access the menu bar on an interface patterned after that of the Mac OS (mac or kde2), I can just flick the mouse upward; the top of the screen keeps my mouse pointer in the menu bar. To access the menu bar on pretty much everything else (windows, gnome, irix, cde, etc.) where the menu falls inside the window, I have to aim for a tiny portion of the screen; aiming in two dimensions instead of one slows me down about 500 milliseconds per menu access, which adds up rapidly over a work day.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Apple's aim with Aqua is brand identiy. They want Aqua instantly associated with Apple.
Sorry, I associate the word Aqua with "Barbie Girl" and Mattel toys, and I associate the look of words written on blue vitamin pills with NyQuil products and the game Dr. Mario. In fact, I once did an Aqua-themed clone of Dr. Mario called Vitamins, part of the freepuzzlearena package.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I think you have it backwards... OmniWeb has awhile to go before it can match Mozilla in anything other than looks.
Really... name something other than looks (which is user taste) and java support that OmniWeb has over Mozilla. Not a single thing.
(oh i did use OmniWeb and loved it till i started to use Mozilla)
I had a story moderated to +5 and I'm feeling generous. Vent your rage upon me, O Brother, and I shall succor you. Hell, you can even have the +1 Bonus.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"