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McNealy Calls for National ID Card Too
Syre writes: "Well McNealy's at it again calling for a national ID card (a smart card powered by Java, anyone?)." So let's get this straight: Oracle wants a national ID card powered by Oracle. Sun wants a national ID card powered by Java. (Even though the U.S. already has a national ID card, since the states are in the process of linking their driver's license databases together.) Is there any company that doesn't want to exploit a tragedy for financial gain? And didn't each and every one of the hijackers present valid ID?
i refuse to let such a draconian thing happen to me.
I'm still waiting for my Slashdot ID card!
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
You have to understand that under the current circumstances the United States economy truly does need someone to encourage growth and investment.
Think about it. Easy to hack, no security, have to reboot all the time, and you always have a lawyer on call.
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
but if Sun and Oracle had their way at least the hijackers would've had to pay them a royalty first.
Well, that sounds like the first trumpet...
We should be expecting a bunch of losers to be carried away in chariots any minute now. Then a couple dudes will be standing around the Mid-East shooting fire out of their mouths.
Thanks, Scott. Do you have a particular design you'd like us to tattoo, also?
They want an ID card with Oracle databases being run on Solaris servers.
So, what's wrong with all the other national ID cards we carry around in our wallets? Social Security card not good enough? My drivers license not good enough? Passport? Credit cards? As if the government can't find out who I am using these 'old' methods.
Exactly what advantage does yet another card have? I'm sure they'll be just as easy to counterfeit as current identification methods...
Culture is more than commerce
"Absolute anonymity breeds absolute irresponsibility"
So, Mr. McNealy, shall we assume you are now absolutely anonymous?
"I'm tired of the outrage. If you get on a plane, I want to know who you are. If you rent a crop duster, I want to know who you are,'' he said.
If you head a large corporation, I want to know who you are.
A long time ago, this man was respectable. What happened?
"Don't mind me cutting myself on Occam's Razor"
Yes, he was in my computer architecture class last semester. Who are you?
...Microsoft wants a national PocketPC running Microsoft ID Card 2.0! Paid for with tax dollars of course!
What info do these "authorities" want? Under what circumstances can they requisition this information, or ask the person to make an ID?
I can understand using it in a fully secure situation such as boarding a plane, assuming that such a thing is Constitutional and isn't yet another link into the Revelations style end of humanity, and assuming that it can be used accurately.
Of course the answer to that last question fades off into potential violation of independant liberty, as in requiring national criminal ID for renting a truck in case you intend to load it with a fertilizer bomb. But I think at least the previous questions should be reasonably answered.
USA needs to freeze immigration, revoke all visas for visitors from hostile middle eastern countries. I would included student visas in that mix too. All middle eastern non-citizens should be deported back to their homeland. It is time that the USA regains control of her borders. Military should be deployed to assist border patrol to prevent terrorists and their weapons from slipping into the country unchecked. Write to your senator and representative and demand action.
How can a driver's license count as a national ID card if everyone doesn't drive, or qualify for one?
a: no - let's increase check-in security.
q: do we know that bin laden is _actually_ responsible, not just capable?
a: no, let's bomb the hell out of the taliban.
this type of reactionary non-critical thinking is rampant so many places and it makes me grumpy. grr.
but i digress...
The Oracle ID card would have an initial cost of $100,000 and require a fulltime DBA to administer.
how about a card using TCL :)
"And didn't each and every one of the hijackers present valid ID?"
Yup, but the airport security couldn't make out the names because the cards only support 7 bit ASCII chars.
--- Worst tagline ever.
That was stated in the previews.
>And didn't each and every one of the hijackers
>present valid ID?
No. That's why a couple was arrested for selling fake IDs to some of them.
Woogie
The terriorist did indeed present valid ID's, but under more careful exam. some of the id's were expired which should have set alarms off in securities head...
All you have to say is hey, you have to drive a car to live in this country.
Sorry to play the devil's advocate here, but these people are payed the big bucks to enrich their stock holders. It's their sole purpose. This is an excelent oportunity for them to do so. Wtf do you expect from any self respecting CEO?? (excluding Steve Jobs maybe)
Maskirovka
Is there any company that doesn't want to exploit a tragedy for financial gain?
I know exactly what you're talking about. Trust me, you're not alone. Don't you feel like you should say something? Don't you just want to scream out loud, "Let's have some dignity!" Of course you do! And for $12.99 you too can get a T-Shirt that says just that! Just call this 1-800 number and get yours...
(sorry, it's pissing me off too. thought maybe some black humour would help)
--------
Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
crime isn't prevented by positive identification
we already have many forms of ID
Passport, Social Security Number, Driving Licence etc. etc.
There's not much more security for anyone by introducing another sort but it does introduce an excuse for cops to run you in or generally hassle you for "ID please" as no doubt you'll be obliged to carry it at all times. Imagine that. An object you have to carry everywhere on penalty of criminal punishment.
One step away from chip implants or an iButton welded to you at birth.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
if you paid attention, you would notice that the president of oracle offered to donate the technology needed to organize a national id card he just wants - if anything - to have bragging rights for being trusted by the government
"When all the buildings fall, pimpin still gone stand tall" - Ricky D
... United States Passport?
... BFD.
I have one, shown it around in various countries a bit, sort of shows where I'm from and where I stand, they usually let me come and go.
Not JAVA enabled though
make the cards in pleasing shapes like yelow stars, pink triangles...
Larry Ellison pointed out that all the information is already in some databases, but while businesses like VISA, AMEX and others poll their databases and link these data together, federal agencies do NOT. If they did, 6 of these 19 terrorists would have been CAUGHT at entry and the attack would likely NEVER happen since they were sought for in some counties in US. How can someone get into the country without notice by INS when he is on 'Wanted' list on Florida?
The other point I've heard was that (as I've heard) Oracle planed to donate database software for the purpose of creating the global ID.
And last, but not least, the plan for global ID proposed by Larry Ellison should have been on voluntary basis to make things for you convenient and avoid these long and thorough checks of identity that will definitely appear on different wanna-be-secure locations like airports.
Get your facts straight, please, before starting to slander someone's ideas.
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
Rant first, content on a national ID card system below.
I hate to be the one to break this to you, but you're in a capitalistic society (Assuming you're in any of the first world nations, at the very least) which is busily reforming the entire world in its image, which is the way it always goes. Whoever's on top has the most time and money to throw away on cultural nonsense (Hollywood, Big Music, et cetera) which shapes everyone who comes in contact with it. These days, that's pretty much everyone. Even world music is becoming more and more like the music we listen to here, with very little exchange in the other direction - At least comparatively.
In fact, Big Music has put together several compilations, a small part of the proceeds of which go to disaster relief. But they're just the ones we have the jihad against (While at the same time buying albums from them) so they're the ones that stick out the most, except for one notable example.
That example is the set of flag crap that they're selling on late night TV for $19.95. They're little flags that clip onto the tops of your windows, which is an okay idea if you drive with the windows up all the time. In the final shot of all the products (which includes a "god bless america" flag or something like that, a normal american flag, and some other kitsch) they put their stupid flag IN FRONT OF the real American Flag, Capital A, Capital F. I mean, I'm not all that worked up about it, but that shows the nerve of these people. They might as well have had a big million dollar bill flag that was in front of both of them.
On The Other Hand, you could see this whole thing as a Triumph Of The American Spirit(tm). Here we are making shit-ade out of the shit we've been handed, and we're drinking it up and smiling as we clean our guns. Say, while we're on (off?) the topic, does anyone else think that we ought to send some militias to Afghanistan to kick some ass? Those people have too much time on their hands anyway.
Anyway, now the content; A National ID card is coming, like it or not. I suspect that they'll just tie all the state databases together for a while, then work on a system to replace it while people get used to that. When it comes, I'm going to have to rush out and pay Texas some traffic ticket fines I've been blowing off (mostly due to a lack of employment due to the tech crunch) so they don't take my license away. Unless, of course, various states choose to only maintain the working relationships they have now.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
As a devout Moslem, I am beginning to take offence to Slashdot's biased and often degrading view of the Arab world. I realized this when I read this post . Normally posts on slashdot that insult any race are instantly pegged as trolls or flamebait, however since the subject of the joke happened to be arab and they are 'terroists' according to the site and most of it's audience, it was considered funny. This is the type of treatment of the Islamic world that drove those terrorists to do what they did. Perhaps instead of blaming it on Arabs you should begin to take some responsibility for yourselves. Other articles on slashdot such as one written by John Katz spoke of how we should be protecting the lives of American soldiers, while many Afghani civilians are being killed. I find this disgraceful, and slashdot has thrown away any chance of becoming a source for reputable news. May Allah forgive you all.
national ID underwear, tongue-studs or bracelets... cards are so overused...
Actually, many of the hijackers presented forged ID, and to this day we don't really know who they are.
Furthermore, as many of them were in the country on temporary visas, with a national ID there might have been a way to root them out. So do not pretend that there are absolutely no benefits to having a national ID.
Still there are drawbacks, and no it doesn't have to do with any silly 1984-type distopian fantasies. With a national ID used everywhere, all those lovely illegal immigrants from Latin America would be kicked out. Why is that bad? Because it would very quickly drive the U.S. into a full fledged depression. The U.S. needs its illegals just as much as they need us; it's just that we don't admit it to ourselves.
Just because the U.S. isn't being hypocritical dealing with the Taliban doesn't mean we aren't hypocrites in many other places.
Do you brown-shirts have nothing better to do than post your nazi ravings on slashdot? I respected this area as a place for the most intelligent people I ever knew to post, and I still do, so I hope never to see such as this posted under the guise of "comment".
There are two separate issues here. A national ID is not necessarily so bad. However, assigning a uniques identification number to each American is what threatens privacy. Having a unique ID number which is accessible to anyone permits cross-correlating databases and other methods of mining data and constructing profiles of people. Also, if there was a bar code or similar machine-readable encoding of the number on the ID card, then soon anyone (airline, dentist, grocery store, border guard, building security) would start swiping the card and recording our movements and activities in a way that would be very easy to combine in giant databases.
I am not saying this would happen, or is even likely, but it would be possible and that is scary enough.
Ok,
.NET/Java2EE or whatever like this:
....
... the goverment uses it, you might as well use our system, because they do too ...
So now everyone thinks that services is the next big thing that will save the IT world and all the tech companies, so everyone is lining up for a universal ID system, which will somehow be tied to
<conjecture and humor>
The Microsoft Network, the only online service that ties directly into your NationalID, so you can do your taxes, use government services, and chat all with one service! Use your NationalID at amazon, cdnow, and others. Remember, the IRS deadline for NationalID is next month, don't get stuck using 'non-standard' protocols like Quicken, or paper.
Oracle - Oracle saved 34 billion running its ID on its own ID system, how much will the country save?
Sun - We're the ID behind NationalID.
</conjecture and humor>
By selling a National ID Card system that is smart, these large companies can leverage that to tie in more 'services' to 'integrate' this to whatever they are selling. In other words, more spam for everybody
As much as we hate to admit it, the government sets a standard, not really on purpose, but because they pick something and stick to it (MS Office for example). Now, take that standard and use it to get a leg up in industry
People who exploit tragedy for finantial gain have the blood of innocent civilians on their hands.
You like forcing your views on others, fine, fucking leave America and fucking get out of my country!.
If you have nothing to hide, that's no reason to give up freedom!
I vote for a system based on COBOL, for its robust features and user-friendliness. Plus, I'm sure Muslims hate hacking it as much as we hate programming it...
Interesting that fully half the referenced article was about Sun and Microsoft fighting over who get's to be the big bad ID authenticator of the digital age.
No has yet mentioned Microsoft, not even to rant at them. Amazing.
I think the Slashdot, anti-Microsoft crowd should learn this once and for all. Sun, and all the other Microsoft hating companies, will come back to bite you in the ass if you help them fight Microsoft.
McNealy's statement is fucking disgraceful. That is all.
It's a push to indirectly give police officers power to murder. Remember the black/hispanic immigrant in NY who was shot with 41 bullets?
"LOOK OUT! HE'S GOT ID!"
After I have received the wisdom of good teaching, I will untiringly teach all people. - The Teachings of Buddha
Fuck yeah! The voice of reason!
If we had done this a long time ago, there is *NO WAY* the WTC disaster could've happened! We could've prevented Oklah...
err, wait.
the hijackers not only presented valid ID but also the ID they had were completely legally obtained by naturalization or VISA Identification... soo really how does this solve the terrorism problem.. It so sad to see so many people using these tragedies as a spring board for their own personaly gain and political platforms
Who makes you Sig?
What I want is a national ID card powered by Microsoft.
If I get stopped by the cops, I just show it to them, and they are so filled with FUD that they let me off, scott-free.
Start with the summary for the story:
Is there any company that doesn't want to exploit a tragedy for financial gain?Certainly there are many who have no intenion of profiting from tragedy. Probably at least as many as intend the opposite. The question is, I hope, rhetorical, even if silly its face. I'll ask one that's going to get an equal, but opposite response, and is just as useless:
Can a company intend to do something that is not purely profit-based? Is it possible for a Company to be less than Wholly Evil?
And didn't each and every one of the hijackers present valid ID?Possibly. Although the interesting thing is that this presumes that presenting ID, as such, would have prevented the events on 9/11 in some way. I think everyone knows that presenting IDs and answering three questions isn't a security system. Many, many people get credible IDs merely to drink alocohol. Many people follow this up by lying when asked their age. So clearly, the system as a whole was completely inadequate.
ID cards, such as they are currently, are indeed, largely useless for security purposes. But what if we had a national ID that would be useful for increased security? There are, of course, many, many potential pitfalls. But also many potential benefits. I will not argue the case for or against ID cards. Many people much smarter and more eloquent have done so. But it seems that this is an issue worth considering, regardless of the companies that may or may not profit from it. Skip the knee-jerk anti-corporate reaction and actually consider those arguments.
Saves space in my wallet if they can link this ID card to Drivers license, Bank Accounts (cashless society), Credit cards, Discount Programs, Passport/Citizenships...
Actually, you probably wouldn't need an ID card if everywhere you went had computer terminals linked to the system, and all you needed to do was punch in your SS number to bring up your ID.
But man the fraud/abuse potential for such a system... scary!
Why don't you log in and post that, Mister Full Disclosure?
why?
What is a national ID card good for? What is it going to prevent? Will it prevent a guy from walking into a bank and holding it up? No. Would it prevent what happened one month ago? Definitely not, based on all the safeguards the perps passed right on through.
Guess I should just say it now - Ellison and McNealy are nothing more than opportunists who are taking advantage of a bad situation in order to pump up their stock prices.
Slash! Seriously... think about it. You can always hide yourself, but it makes fun of you. You get promoted for group-think, and struck down for originality. Almost everyone has a connection to Natalie Portman (usually in the form of hot grits-- great for down south... both the South, and the other meaning ), and finally-- everyone will be able to spot and avoid JonKatz just with one checkbox! W00t@ge!
-- Is "Sig" copyrighted by www.sig.com?
I heard him speak on computing power not so long ago may two or three months) and he was adamant that users should not have computers much more powerful than today and something to the effect of limited availability of computing power except when licensed.
I wish I could find a transcript because I can't vouch for the details, but it was shocking.
Oh well, big business is quite happy with big brother, what's new.
Forget about Id cards, I want Gataca style instant DNA id. A quick pinprick, a little analysis, and a check against a database.
The day this is implemented is the day I become a hermit in the Middle Fork Wilderness area.
Fly Fish? Participate in our forum
But seriously, it looks alot like this would be a great tie in with the reciently proposed .net competitor. Especialy they got a primary dataload that contained all 280+ million Americans. From the Sun / Oracle perspective it woudl be perfict, and would define any other system as a second class wana -be-competitor.
Personaly, I don't trust any of them to build a secure system, or even something reasonibly secure.
Think about it. Right now airports and so on are treating EVERYONE as a terrorist. Searching everybody, going through everyones bag. A voluntary National ID card could fix this. If you are willing to go through a hefty background check and whatnot to ensure you are not associated with foriegn terrorist agencies than you can go and get the National ID CARD. You are no longer searched as heavily or treated as a terrorist. People who oppose this National ID card will be searched and questioned.
The security problem that people keep trying to address with ID cards cannot be addressed by the card alone. It has to be coupled with measures to force you to carry the card, and measures to force you to show the card. Both of these can be enacted now, with current existing means of identification. I don't want to see it though.
I'd love to be there.
Now don't go raggin on Micheal. He is trapped by the indoctrination and propaganda he received at the undoubtedly extremely leftist, elitist school where he got his "degree". Rag on the a-hole "Professors" who taught him how to think and what is acceptable to critique.
``Absolute anonymity breeds absolute irresponsibility,'' he said. ``We need a thumbprint Java card in the hand of everybody in the country.''
Somehow giving up one's privacy will "breed" responsibility? Funny, I don't remember learning to be responsible by having everyone know all the details of my personal life. Yet here's this character lecturing Americans that we need to give up any semblance of privacy in order to be responsible citizens. Feh.
Besides, the last time I checked, many of the most evil acts in history were perpetrated by people who were quite well known to everyone else. I'm not sure that I see the positive correlation between being anonymous and being irresponsible and whether *America* will truly benefit from this scheme.
Furthermore, when he says "We", does he mean the citizens of the US? Why do I suspect he is talking about Sun, its CEO, and its investors and not the citizens of the US?
Finally, I wonder if this petty dictator-wannabe's "Java card" will let everyone he interacts with to know just how much of a threat he is to our basic human liberties... I suspect not...
Only barcodes tatooed on the back of the neck will solve these problems.
I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!
The way I see it, everyone wants the security that these cards promise. As a proposal: how about the cards can only be used for identification purposes. The information gleened from these cards can only be used for checking against known outstanding warrants. Though the information is archived, it cannot be accessed without a court order. Make it a crime to use these cards for private or government compiling of lists. They can only be used for momentary identification, and criminal investigations. Not the fact that you seem to travel and therefore we think you would like a "New Discover Card with air miles"
I would accept this limited use of National ID cards, though I would be suprised if something like this would pass, what an oppertunity to spam you and/or match your shopping habits to what type of underwear you use.
I really dislike the fact that this is what what National ID cards will be used for, and this is why business want it. Not for the better identification of terrorists.
Get off it, come up with a better solution (doing NOTHING is NOT a better solution), or sit down and shut up.
so I could host my homepage on the card.
Why should they get to decide what goes on MY id card?....I could see it now, at the checkout line sliding my card through the reader,
and the checkout clerk says
"hey did you do those animations yourself? that's really cool!"
"The Most Fun Possible on 4 wheels" is at SunBuggy in Las Vegas
Oracle wants a national ID card powered by Oracle. Sun wants a national ID card powered by Java.
..and since the government does everything by committee, we'll get a national ID card powered by Java running Oracle. Of course, getting that much software to run on something the size of an I.D. card should keep these two companies busy for at least ten years, meanwhile we'll have bought some time to do something useful, like wipe out terrorism or elect new leaders.
Java & Oracle on a chip, indeed. That's like Microsoft saying that they're going to get into television or something!
It really annoys me that practically no media agencies have picked up on this point. We can outlaw encryption, have a national ID card, require a strip search to board any form of public transportation, and have video cameras at every intersection of every little dirt road in the middle of nowhere. But none of this would have helped to prevent the World Trade Center tragedy. People don't seem to realize that all of these "anti-terrorism" laws are completely irrelevant to terrorism.
________________________________________________
suwain_2
god.. you stupid moderators.. this is FUCKING FUNNY.. fucking moderators, lighten up
The United States should be concentrating on teaching the rest of the world not to be starving and hateful. Or at least how not to starve because we haven't quite got the not hating part completely down ourselves. But it's so much easier to drop bombs and sell each other new things...
Now I gotta give 'em a full animation?
My local Taco Bell doesnt take credit cards.
National ID Card? They dont take checks either.
Aha, We can starve the terrorists!
What is going on with Sun lately?
.NET.
It really seems that Sun has resorted to "Ah, yes, that sounds like a good idea, but it can't work under {Microsoft|Oracle}".
Witness the Liberty Alliance. Basically, what Sun was saying was "well, a global authentication mechanism really is needed. We just can't have Microsoft doing it, because Microsoft is the evil empire."
What about Java? Originally promised as the end-all, be-all of programming languages, it has since dwindled into a niche of server-side programming. JSP only came about because ASP did. Sun had XML for years (in fact, Sun employees did invent XML) before Microsoft finally ponied up a strategy for using it with
Jxta? What is Jxta? "Peer-to-peer protocols"? Jxta came about because of Napster, but I don't see any applications using it yet...
Now, Oracle has requested national IDs, and Sun again jumps on the bandwagon, this time with McNealy claiming that he wanted to use them for national IDs all along. It's true, Java smart cards have been in the works for a while, but I don't think McNealy originally created them for a national ID system.
The future of Sun really worries me. Back in 1996, when anti-Microsoft sentiment was just starting to take off, Sun really was the leader. A lot of people thought that Sun might be their only chance for keeping everything from becoming a Microsoft product. But so far, they have failed to produce anything that lives up to their numerous claims. Java has been moderately successful, but not in the realm in which Sun originally intended (client-side applications.)
I really wish Scott McNealy would stop making these privacy-bashing claims and go back to making the great servers that made Sun famous. Why has Sun taken so many tangents lately? It really seems like Sun's core server business has suffered because McNealy's wish is for Sun to be an overpowering empire, not just an awesome server company. I really wish Sun the best, but as their prospects for profitability dim and they announce layoffs, I think now is the time for Sun to become refocused -- and McNealy needs to emphasize that, instead of just spouting off about smart cards and how Java is going to rule the world.
My two cents...
Just put your thumbprint on something. Presto,
your very own barcode. Cannot be forged easily.
Unique to every individual.
PeterM
I guess Sun and Oracle want to one-up them and catalog EVERYONE. Barcodes on our necks anyone?
-- Chris Martin, System Administrator
I forgot who orginally said this (1000 apologies):
"National ID cards (in the US, replacing the mishmash of Social Security, Driver's License, Military ID, blah blah) are actually a privacy enhancing thing, if backed up by the proper regulations.
Right now, in the US, we (ie the individual) have virtually no way of tracking who is tracing us, and identity theft is difficult to trace. There are a thousand and one different places to steal access to, any one of which can be used to forge access to another. And furthermore, there is almost no way to keep track of who accesses what information.
Even if the US put in reasonable privacy laws for the current system, keeping track of all accesses to your information is problematic, at best.
I'd be all for a National ID card, should they pass reasonable privacy laws with it. And my definition of privacy laws is this: I get to control who has access to what information, I decide what information can go in the system, I decide the granularity of info given to people, I own my information, nobody can collect information about me (unless as an unidentifiable part of an aggregate) unless I explicitly permit it, and no one can share any information about me with anyone else. There would be exceptions for court-ordered disclosures for law-enforcement, but that's it.
That system would be great: it would prevent a person with a suspended driver's license in one state from getting a new one in another, while at the same time prevent company A from discovering I like Mary Typer Moore shows by my viewing habits, then selling this info to company B.
Having a properly monitored and regulated central database of personal info is far better than the completely insecure mishmash of crap we have today.
But unless they put in those restrictions, Hell No!"
"Is there any company that doesn't want to exploit a tragedy for financial gain?"
hahah. hahahahahahha. HAHAHHAHHAH! AHHHAAHHAHHHAHHAHAHHAHAHAH!
no. there is no company large enough to suggest something like that that also gives a shit about humanity or safety or privacy, or anything except their christmas bonuses.
excess money makes *most* people heartless, evil, greedy and opportunistic. the current economic situation isn't helping things either - they only want more money to come in faster right now, because they see no reasonable income in the future.
they are owned by money, not the other way around. the things you own, end up owning you. example: ever seen someone who owns a ferarri not get murderously angry & violent when they see that someone has scratched their car? its not because something like that really matters, its because their self worth is enveloped entirely in their belongings.
so no, there is no large company that will not take every available opportunity to monopolize a situation that can benefit them - no matter how many people died to create that situation.
NBC Rocks! They're showing it in its entirety.
I'm not flaming, or, trolling, just stating my opinion.
"Fear nothing. Live free." John Perry Barlow
Damnit, Jim, I'm an anarchist, not a F@#$!^& doctor!
I'm so tired of the whining about "privacey" in a community that I find otherwise wise. There never has been, never will be privacey. Get over it. If you truly value libertarian vitues, why not take an imaginative leap...can't humanity
engineer a truly unhackable human identification system? And if so, if spoofing identity becomes impossible (based for example on DNA) or at least difficult in the extreme (i.e. very costly), then can't we also imagine a zero privacey/maximum freedom hegemony much cooler than current offerings?
StarTrek is actually within reach...and as luck would have it, it's this very community that could drive h. sapiens to realize such potential...if y'all would just get over a few (immature) hangups and stop whining.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -- Aurther C. Clarke
I'd love to not list my SSN on my SAT but I don't think "FrostyWheaton told me so" is gonna be a valid excuse. Do you have any links to back up what you say?
--
WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
Welcome to the third reich, papers please? Thank you, the gestapo will be in touch.
So Oracle wants to give the government free copies of their software? Then why don't do they just do it and stop mugging for PR? Oh - I'm sorry - were there limits or conditions attached to this offer?
I wonder how much he figures they can make off of the consulting and support? You know you gotta keep up with the Gates' and Balmers'..
All these companies want to own us.
The hijackers used foreign passports and perhaps other forms of ID. All of the passports I've seen are very easy to forge, US passports are simply laminated bits of paper. Also a poorly paid person checks the ID, with a high-tech ID card we won't have to rely on these people.
Smart cards have secure technology right now, the chip is completely destroyed by any tampering so the contents are safe. That combined with the proven security of public key encryption should be more than enough to prevent forgery.
How would this help? Simple, no one boards a plane without a USA ID card that is linked to their retina/finger prints/dna. Further no one buys a gun, restricted chemicals, rents vehicles, etc without a card.
This ID card would only be used for identification purposes directly related to national security, it wouldn't be used to track your every movement. If you don't want one, fine, don't fly, don't buy weapons, don't buy chemicals, don't rent cars.
It doesn't hurt your privacy in any noticeable way. Laws can be enacted to restrict the use of this card to whatever the voters desire.
I will only accept an ID card if it is powered by any of the following:
Linux
BSD
Unix
Solaris
I will NOT accept it if it is powered by Microsoft.
A lot of what I read here doesn't take into account the human factor. No matter how good of a card or system you get, people can and will always screw it up. Thats what has already happened. People don't examine ID's closely enough. People don't watch the x-ray machines closely enough. Airport personel lose their badges, etc, etc, etc.
Even if we can have a perfect, unforgeable, unique card biometrically linked for any and every security purpose, it still doesn't rule out the fact that those who have legit access can be turned or used.
Just my 2 cents.
"Of all days, the day on which one has not laughed is the most surely the one wasted." -Sebastian Roch Nicol
This is slashdot...we don't NEED to read the artivles before we talk about them...
maybe we all really do need 3 national id cards
FrontPageMagazine.com, October 4, 2001
The Islamic Homosexuals by Jamie Glazov [Michael - take note - this is about YOU]
ALL SERIAL KILLERS, almost without exception, are severely sexually abused as children. The kind of people who hijack a plane with innocent people and drive it into a building with thousands of other innocent people are related to this phenomenon.
When sociopaths rape and kill, they do not see their victims as human beings, but only as objects. This is because the sociopaths were themselves, at one time, used as objects as their bodily integrity was repeatedly violated. The rage that results from sexual abuse is one thing, but when combined with living in a dysfunctional culture of sexual repression and misogyny, where love is reduced to violent domination, it is quite another.
Throughout the Islamic Middle East, men and women are taught to be vehemently opposed to pleasure, especially of the sexual variety. Men are raised not only forbidden to touch women, but to even look at them. Sex before marriage is not just a sin -- but a criminal offence. It is punishable by a severe beating at best, and an execution at worst.
The sexual privileges that are allowed in Islamic cultures are permitted to men. Womens sexuality and social independence represent major threats to male supremacy and are tightly controlled. Thus, as the Moroccan feminist Fitna Sabbah reveals in her book Woman in the Muslim Unconscious, there is a disturbing conflict in the Middle East between sexual libido and repression. A deep-seated fear of, and hostility to, individuality prevails, and its main expression exists in misogyny.
Socially segregated from women, Arab men succumb to homosexual behavior. But, interestingly enough, there is no word for "homosexual" in their culture in the modern Western sense. That is because having sex with boys, or with effeminate men, is seen as a social norm. Males serve as available substitutes for unavailable women. The male who does the penetrating, meanwhile, is not emasculated any more than if he had sex with a wife. The male who is penetrated is emasculated. The boy, however, is not, since it is rationalized that he is not yet a man.
In this culture, males sexually penetrating males becomes a manifestation of male power, conferring a status of hyper-masculinity. It is considered to have nothing to do with homosexuality. An unmarried man who has sex with boys is simply doing what men do. As the scholar Bruce Dunne has demonstrated, sex in Islamic societies is not about mutuality between partners, but about the adult male's achievement of pleasure through violent domination.
There is silence around this issue. It is the silence that legitimizes sexual violence against women, such as honor crimes and female circumcision. It is also the silence that forces victimized Arab boys into invisibility. Even though the society does not see their sexual exploitation as being humiliating, the psychological and emotional scars that result from their subordination, powerlessness and humiliation is a given. Traumatized by the violation of their dignity and manliness, they spend the rest of their lives trying to get it back.
The problem is that trying to recover from sexual abuse, and to recapture ones own shattered masculinity, is quite an ordeal in a culture where women are hated and love is interpreted as hegemonic control.
With women out of touch and out of sight -- until marriage, males experience pre-marital sex only in the confines of being with other males. Their sexual outlet mostly includes victimizing younger males just the way they were victimized.
In all of these circumstances, the idea of love is removed from men's understanding of sexuality. Like the essence of Arab masculinity, it is reduced to hurting others by violence. A gigantic rupture develops between men and women, where no harmony, affection or equality is allowed to exist. In relationships between men, meanwhile, affection, solidarity and empathy are left out of the picture. They threaten the hyper-masculine order.
It is excruciating to imagine the sexual confusion, humiliation, and repression that evolve in the mindsets of males in this culture. But it is no surprise that many of these males find their only avenue for gratification in the act of humiliating the foreign "enemy," whose masculinity must be violated at all costs as theirs once was.
Violating the masculinity of the enemy necessitates the dishing out of severe violence against him. In the recent terrorist strikes, therefore, violence against Americans served as a much-needed release of the terrorists bottled-up sexual rage. Moreover, it served as a desperate and pathological testament of the re-masculinization of their emasculated selves.
These people are all Socialists. Like Clinton after Columbine they are all quick to exploit tragedy for their own gain. Doesn't matter who gets hurt in the process as long as their pathetic idealism (idealism is BAD, VERY BAD) gets advanced. Nothing new...
Is it all clear skies over Madrid? ;-)
There are millions of people whose lives are so disorganized that they won't get the ID cards or they'll lose them when they get them or they'll fail to get them renewed.
For instance, in 1993-97, 3.7 percent of drivers were unlicensed, 7.4 percent were driving on an invalid (e.g., suspended, revoked, etc.) license, and 2.7 percent were of unknown license status.
The result is that if the police have to investigate everyone they stop without a valid ID card, they will be spending thousands of useless man hours verifying the identities of non-terrorists. Possibly they will be investigating the same hopeless people over and over again.
At best, a national ID system will prove a short term impediment until the terrorists figure out a way to acquire the cards illegally.
In fact, one can imagine a large black market for ID cards that would be a further drain on the resources of the police.
Do you really want to shutdown slashdot or what?
I think the main objection here is loss of privacy. So let's find some other ways to protect our privacy:
From the bottom, let's declare that personal info is our property. Let's use rights management software to tag _all_ data about ourselves, so that we can follow it, so we know exactly who has it and for how long. Some of that data we ought to be able to revoke, or "license it" in such a way that it expires. If I can't copy Word and sell it to my friend, why should a business be able to do the same with my credit card purchases, or questionnaire responses. Moreover, if a police agency is monitoring or collecting data about me, I should have a right ot know this. If the FBI needs a personal ID card, let them use it for purposes of identification, and not of spying. They still gotta do the gumshoe thing for that.
From the Top. If we are giving govt. more info about us, then we need more powers to hold govt. accountable. Let's require some stronger freedom of information policies. Declassify more docs. Publicize notes and meetings. Shine a light on black budgets. Full disclosure of lobbyists' notes/itinerary. I wanna be able to download the pda and schedule for any registered lobbyist (and they damn well better be registered, tagged, collared, .. ;)). All available on the web (say, two-weeks after the fact). You guys think of some other/better ideas. There are lots of ways to improve govt. accountability.
Needless to say, we don't want oracle or MS or Sun running the show in some proprietary monopoly. This should be a non profit, fully open process.
We can make a trade. National ID card in exchange for more open governance. More accountability. If this happened, I'd personally feel a higher level of privacy than I do now.
When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand.
He was right when he said that we did not have any privacy left anymore. Get over it. Communism won. ;P
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
Hi,
I always assumed that Sun marketed themselves as the Open Source company against Microsoft's Evil Closed Empire.
I read around, and kind of understood:
MS==BillGates
Sun==ScottMcNeally
And got to understand:
BillGates==Closed Source, BAAAD
ScottMcNeally==Open Source, Free, Goood
So, given:
MS==C#
Sun==Java,
I got to assume:
C#==Closed, BAAAD
Java==Open, Free, Goood
but...NOW...given this pronouncement ( and other Sun Closed Source, playing on the EEdge nonsense ):
I'm pretty fucking glad my Perl is better than my Java.
Goodbye Scott,
Goodbye Java goodwill,
Goodbye Sun.
--
Note to Slashdot editors:
Notice the use of apostrophes and learn from it - Pretend it's a new programming language, called "English".
The team over at http://oprivacy.sourceforge.net have been planning for a while an opensource environment that will provide the privacy consumers demand to have and businesses attempt to exploit.
Isn't it time the opensource community officially makes an attempt to provide the alternative the people feel they deserve? The http://www.openprivacy.org team is also making a similar attempt. Hmmm...
Now, that's scary.. Land of the free, no less.. Osama is smiling..
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
After working with Oracle for some time, and getting tired of having to kill -9 the old jre.exe more than once a day...
Oracle is powered by Java (Sun). I don't know what kind of licensing scheme is used between Oracle and Sun, but I am sure that Sun will profit of Ellison gets his way (more licenses ==> more yachts)
That Bill Gates is the Anti-Christ, number of the beast etc. etc...
When it's good ol Larry "I'm a fucking asshole" Ellison and Scott "I peed in your Java" McNealy.
Whoda thunk it?
But we known from many studies and long experience that you cannot be objective if you have a stake in the matter, no matter how much you try. That's why scientists conduct double-blind studies. And that's why we should scrutinize both administration policies and corporate proposals very, very carefully.
I do actually think a national ID system would actually be a good thing. But I think its purpose should only be to allow people to identify themselves reliably to other humans and to establish their residency status. As such, it should involve neither smartcards nor Java nor Oracle software. In fact, I don't think it should involve a national database at all. Rather, it should be a difficult-to-forge physical artifact with picture, name, thumbprint, and a 40 digit unique number with checksum (the length making it difficult to remember from casual observation, and to make it difficult to invent existing numbers). The number should be printed in an OCR font so that it can be read and verified, but the rest of the information on the card should be deliberately hard to capture by automatic means. Such a card could then be used to establish identity for purposes like immigration, security check-ins, financial transactions, etc. Yet it would resist the creation of a "big brother" database probably better than our current ad-hoc system based on social security numbers.
Such a system would be of no commercial value to McNealy or Ellison. Would they still support it?Well...
Oracle wants a national ID card powered by Oracle. Sun wants a national ID card powered by Java.
...and Bud wants a national ID card powered by beer. So what else is new?
Me, personally? I want a national ID card powered by my smiling face, with a $1 royalty going to me for each card.
I think y'all get the point. At any rate, one can only hope that if Bush ever holds up a card on TV, people will react the same as when Clinton held up a card on TV. Yes... here is how I intend to prevent it:
Dear Mr. Bush,
If you ever hold up a national ID card on TV, I will vote straight Democrat in the next election.
Sincerely,
Steven Marthouse
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
to a point in the not-so-distant future where your ID will be *everything*. Forgot your wallet today? Too bad; suddenly you practically cease to exist.
We're already required to present ID to write checks, buy movie tickets (rated "R" or above), and a horde of other daily tasks. How long before we'll required to present our DigID to ride the subway (just "swipe and go") or buy dinner at a restaraunt?
I don't mean to downplay the positive aspects of such a system, as it could be integrated into financial systems to make a lot of things involving purchases easier. However, even those benefits are overshadowed by serious privacy issues. Think browser cookies are evil? Wait 'till McDonald's knows what kind of car you drive, what your taste in lingerie is (sure it was for your wife.. right...
Sorry Mr. McNeally, I think I'll pay cash when possible and use my good ol' state ID for the rest.
These terrible people, taking advantage of such tragedies...
In completely unrelated break through, I will be selling white t-shirts with "Check out this shirt, I'm a real American!" written on it with black magic marker. Only 29.95.
Orders to come in anytime now.
These guys were heading off to die on a holy mission to rid the world of what they believed was true evil.
I doubt if a national i.d. card will deter any of these religious yahoos from inflicting more damage.
I can't be the only one seeing the government using this as an excuse to become totalitarian and impose their 'security' measures for the good of the whole. They just want to control the general population some more, sell this info to the big companies and control your revery move.
I would be outraged at the sight of this card.
I think there is a concept that underlies all the concerns of privacy advocates, cypherpunks, civil rights advocates, and consumer protection advocates when presented with the concept of some kind of "national identification."
Trust.
Trust that your ID won't be used to track your purchases in order to determine your buying habits, so that info can be sold to someone else, to sell to someone else, to build a huge database about the buying habits of millions including yourself, to sell to the highest bidder.
Trust that you won't have every movement scrutinized by authorities and put in a file, tagged to your ID card, because you think the death penalty is moronic, or marijuana should be legalized, or that animals have similar rights as the animal species homo sapiens, so that law enforcement can threaten you into submission by showing how closely they can watch you, or take any innocuous action and turn it into reason for denial of bail - or even a conviction - by painting a "picture" of someone "suspicious".
Trust that the people involved in administering the system won't abuse the authority given to them.
Trust that the people who provide the resources won't try to exploit that avenue of control to gain some kind of political or economic advantage.
Trust that this system is being set up for the benefit of all, instead of the benefit of a few.
Trust that the system will be transparent and fair.
Trust in something is a powerful emotion, one that can drive a person to give another some kind of power over them, in the hope that power won't be abused. Trust in government, in business, in law enforcement, in the very people handed power and authority, has been spectacularly eroded over the past century, thanks to uncountable incidents of abuse of power and control.
Trust will have to be rebuilt in a lot of people before a national ID system can be effectively put into place.
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
If for no other reason than for driving home to (otherwise naively unsuspecting) people that they have no privacy and are being constantly observed. It is the governments duty to at least allow cicitzens the dignity of knowing they are being watched, data mined, profiled, and statistically reduced on a daily basis.
On the issue of manditory National ID Cards, a White House spokesperson has stated, "We are not even considering the idea." Great Britain has also ignored this liberal movement to restrict our civil liberties.
Here is a link.
Oh yeah, sorry about the title.
The Symbiotic Order
The World is Yours.
He's the catch, I want it tattooed right in the crack of my ass. I belive that this would be great. Think about it:
Authority Abusing Cop: "I need to see your ID tatoo son"
Me: Gulps down last spoon of Super Ass Ripper Chilli, "Alright, but you're going to have to get nice and close, there's not much light in here officer"
Best idea I've had all week.
Obviously not, but the biggest whore of all is the media.
Governments have been wanting to introduce ID cards ever since they first heard of them. They are an amazing tool, and really benefit no-one in the end except the state. To have the ID card is a Machiavellian masterstroke, and lets face it... try and find someone who really supports the idea of the nation state without having just a *little* Machaivelli in them.
The problem is, most of the citizens of the state ask the question 'How much liberty are we willing to sacrifice for safety, protection by the state?' This trade off is a question which normally comes down to some middle ground, and is answered quite culturally, as we saw with the article about CCTV in the UK, which is unlikely to get significantly off the starting blocks in the USA.
This dilemma of liberty/safety relies on a relative lack of fear on the part of the citizens to keep the ID cards and other infringements of civil liberties at bay. However, in the wake of the 11th Sept attacks, the balance has shifted, by making everyone feel that much less safe.
If the government are ever going to pull off an introduction of cards, it is whilst the right wing can sell the moderates by playing on their fear.
This debate over ID cards has nothing whatsoever to do with those attacks, it is merely a framework in which some devious Machiavellian politicians can sly through a normally unpopular idea.
Don't fall for it. Whilst paying due regard and respect to those involved in the 11th Sept attacks, and the aftermath now ensuing, please have a memory prior to that date. Remember that you would not have wanted it then, and in a few months, or a few years, or whenever some semblence of normality returns, you will not want it then either.
-- The avalanche has started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.
It's like a Bond film or something. All he needs is a white cat and a monacle.
One thing nor mentioned so far is that even if Dubya were to succeed in specifying, developing and implementing a new US ID card (ie. succeed in managing a major IT project without cost overrun or failure to provide required functionality...), what happens to the numerous foreigners in the USA?
I'm sure that the rest of the world would probably fail to come up to the US 'standards' - would an Afghan passport be accepted as readily as a US ID card? Or a Britsh/French/Japanese passport, for that matter? (Or insert your chosen US-friendly/US-client state in that sentence).
So even if the US cards were miraculuously foolproof and unforgeable, the baddies would just start getting fake IDs from ither countries, which the US couldn't refuse without significant political and legal problems.
For example, I hold a British passport, a Swiss driving licence, and a Spanish student ID - which of these would be accepted in the Brave New World as allowing me to fly from New York to Boston?
I've got my religion. You don't need to see my identification.
Tarkwyn.
I can only assume this post is about McNealy, in which case its is very much on topic.. he's such a sniveling fuck. I'd love to punch him in the head.
please DO crawl back under the snake's belly you crawled out from... and take a copy of the "Federalist Papers" with you, MAYBE you'd actually learn what this country is all about, you filthy reactionary fucko.
The real question that the populace needs to ask is whether or not any system of National IDs would really provide a benefit for the People in the form of Enhanced Security, while simultaneously not eroding our Freedoms. Furthermore, what will be the implications of the information that such a system provides, and what reliability do we have for the accuracy and precision of that data?
If such cards hold information on criminal record, citizenship status, and so forth, will this information be used in a discriminatory fashion? Will convicted murderer be able to board an airliner? How about someone who plead guilty to petty theft decades ago? How about people with speeding tickets? Will cards hold information on ethnic background, and if so, how will this affect racial profiling?
Furthermore, how will the data be stored? Will it all be contained on a Smart Card (easily hackable), or will it be contained in a Central Database? Who will be in charge of this Database? If this central database is hacked, aren't all records for all citizens suddenly called into question? And if this database is undetectibly hacked, how will this provide any more security than a person carrying a forged driver's license? It is doubtful that this card on it's own will be enough to provide true security. Schneier talks of a dual data system, where a user provides a password or biometric data in addition to the ID card to provide authentication. Couldn't these also be stolen or faked, perhaps not at the personal level, but also by hacking the card or database?
What about the convienience factor? Many people have said that while Americans clamor for security, the aspect of life that they're least willing to give up is convieneince. Will transmitting a query across the network for every ID card access be so painfully slow that many people will forgo its use? Will people who forget or lose their card be locked out of their daily routines until the situation is resolved? And how will foreigners deal with the lack of a National ID card? Will they be issued a temporary one upon arrival in this nation? How easy will these be to forge, and how will this affect tourism, and their opinion of "America, The Haven of Freedom and Democracy"?
I for one wonder how many of these questions will be asked by people who will decide whether or not such a system should be implemented. This is not a trivial issue, and the proper analysis of such a system will take time, time that few want to waste in this era of fast solutions and anxious precautions.
Let's face it folks; having a federally issued ID card, with your picture on it is NOT what bothers everyone. Do you think you government doesn't know you are a citizen? Do you have a passport? That's federally issued ID.
.FAA regulations clearly allow you to travel without ID.
The REAL issue is where you have to present said ID card.
I don't have to present ID to ride the bus, to buy groceries, to drive on the highway (though I do have to have my driver's license). I don't have to present ID to cross from state to state. You don't technically have to show ID to board an airplane (but good luck doing so nowadays after the sept. 11 incidents)
The issue is someone using that federal ID to track where you go, when, and how, and what you do, what you buy, etc. Isn't it?
Is it possible that the introduction of a smart card for national ID is so that they can store information to be used for profiling?
I know that's a little bit knee-jerk conspiracy theory sounding, but why else the need for the smart card... what can't the driver's licence / social security card do that facillitates the need for the extra card?
Would be to flip a bird.. Never can resist flipping one to ATM camera.. ;)
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
After all we all know how to spot a real American. Check the clothes. Check the accent. Check the knowledge of baseball trivia.
What was the success of German spying efforts in WWII? Germans looked just like plenty of Americans; but few if any had mastery of baseball trivia. The Germans with American music trivia (particularly jazz) were generally in the German resistance. If you go far enough into our trivia, it conquers your mind and there's no need for us to worry about you.
The only function served by ID cards would be they would allow certain technical citizens to be granted certain privileges, when under present circumstances they will be prone to intense interrogation for not bearing the obvious signs of being, in a cultural sense, citizens. Why screw with the status quo on this one, when it favors most of us here?
Altho it would be useful, in considering a new relationship, to have full access not just to the prospective other's ID card, but also the EGO card and the SUPER-EGO card. If the SUPER-EGO resembles any of several nasty old Middle-Eastern deities, report this to local law enforcement.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
Somehow, selling these national ID cards seems like selling freshmen elevator passes
First.. in US airports, aside form any new legislation just up because of the Sept. 11 events, it is still legal to fly without presenting ID. The party line at check-in counters is a lie: they will happily tell you 'FAA regulations require us to ask for ID', but this is patently false. FAA regulations clearly state that it is permissible to fly without proper verifiable ID so long as they either a) make a thorough check of your baggage or b) ensure your baggage only goes onboard if you yourself are onboard. Remove it from the plane if you aren't onboard at takeoff. In fact, it may be illegal to refuse to let someone board a plane without ID. The reason the airlines don't tell you this? Because.. they want to enforce their STUPID non-transeferable tickets. Cancelled your plans? wanna give your expensive ticket to someone else? Too bad. That is evil.
As for the SIN. IT is illegal for anyone but the Government to REQUIRE you to present your SIN. The catch is.. you are not required to give it out to anyone but the government. You can always request an 'alternate' id number for credit checks and such.
Unversal ID cards aren't scary.. but I think the reason oracle & sun are involving themselves is because they are talking about a national ID 'system' as opposed to just cards. National ID cards are actually a good idea... I don't have a problem. I happily show my passport for ID all the time now anyway.
First of all, Sun and Oracle are only trying to get their name out. Sure they know there is some profit to gain from this, but they can also test and stress their products with this and at the same time provide a system to the US people that works.
ID Cards should not be needed when purchasing goods, riding a bus, getting a taxi, or whatnot. ID Cards should be used for things like trains and airplanes, maybe boats too if you think about cruise ships. The only thing that should be on these cards is your picture, full name, birthday, and city of residence. It does not need your ethnic background or religion.
I am not American though, I am Canadian. If they introduce something similar to what is being introduced into the United States, I'd glady go along with it.
Religion... not good for much, makes great troll-bait though.
Shut the fuck up, you're an idiot. Well, not an idiot, a dumb fuck.
What makes you think that computer programmers are the ones that will make the "Star Trek Utopia" a reality? Do you realise that that is basically a communist govt?
Star Trek is NOT within reach currently, humanity needs a lot of growing up to do first. A Star Trek society does not base they economy off of money, they base it off of their workers -- communism anyone? They have the ability to create a hamburger and fries from a pile of dirt. We don't have anywhere near that capability. Then if you want to talk energy resources, they have fusion power plants the size of a lantern battery. We don't even have a working fusion reactor. We don't even have a working fusion reactor period. They're space travel is so supior to ours. It takes at least 3 months to travel to Mars, and that is when Mars is the closest to us and we use "slingshoting" to get a probe there faster. So stop thinking that we are anywhere near a "Star Trek" society. Stop thinking that computer programers are the ones to get us there.
do not pretend that there are absolutely no benefits to having a national ID
If the best you can do is the above, maybe there's no need to pretend?
Just because the U.S. isn't being hypocritical dealing with the Taliban
The U.S. is being extremely hypocritical in dealing with the Taliban. This must be a troll. Surely no thinking creature could be this dumb.
Sign me up, but I want full medical/dental coverage and guaranteed employment in whatever field I'm competant in, with an option for self employment.
forced text here due to L F
There are lots of things that go into my "Club USA" analogy, and having national ID cards would just push the idea.
Personally I like to view the United States of America as the World's largest country club. You can relate taxes to membership dues, 'nationalist exams' to membership forms, and there are other things that make it easy to feel this way.
I'm also a Christian, so my Christian peers are always bringing up scripture talking about numbering systems and 'the mark of the beast'. Well, I have to agree with the national ID card system. First of all, if you're going to be a member of my club, I want _somebody_ knowing what it is you're spending all your time doing. And lets say that a national ID system does play into God's plan for the return of Christ. Great, that just helps move things along!
~LoudMusic
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
Isaac Asimov made that statement, NOT Arthur C. Clarke, and that is "ARTHUR" and NOT "Arther"... you blithering moron... and it is "PRIVACY" and not "privacey", you semi-literate shit-for-brains turdmunch.
This issue will not be decided by what is consitutional, or even what make sense. It will be decided by the level of disruption that occurs in our country in the near future, and the level of the hysterical reaction by each and every one of us.
Let's face it. A more comprehensive national id system will not prevent atrocities like 9/11 from happening again, but it might make it a bit more difficult. Neither will it turn this country in to the totalitarian vision of 1984, but the possibility of abuse is enormous. If we allow such a system, who will see that our rights are not trampled? Who will guarantee the validity of the id's? Can we trust the government and/or corporations to keep our best interests at heart?
It come down do this:What is more important, our personal freedoms or a measure of security?
I don't know the 'right' answer to that question or even if such a thing even exsists. Certainly we need to make every provision to prevent such an atrocity from happening in the future, but I'm not so sure that yet another form of identification would accomplish that goal.
Is there any company that doesn't want to exploit a tragedy for financial gain?
Microsoft. They donated $10 million in cash and $10 million in software to the aid effort. Now, they're no angels, and like any charitable donation, this naturally looks good for their corporate image. But I wouldn't describe what they did as "exploitation" and the financial gain, if any, from the goodwill is extremely indirect and probably doesn't come close to covering even the straight cash they laid out to do it.
This is probably the best, and very true, post on /. in a very long time
you know, that Radiohead song is pretty good... made on a Macintosh, btw... of course all artists and truly creative types use Macs... and that voice is one of the many standard voices available in MacOS, the voice's name is Fred... just thought you might not be able to live through another day without this info... heh, now i must ask you to show me your papers, please!
CREATORS ADMIT UNIX, C HOAX
| "+(*u/4)*962);
In an announcement that has stunned the computer industry, Ken Thompson, Dennis Ritchie and Brian Kernighan admitted that the Unix operating system and C programming language created by them is an elaborate April Fools prank kept alive for over 20 years. Speaking at the recent UnixWorld Software Development Forum, Thompson revealed the following:
"In 1969, AT&T had just terminated their work with the GE/Honeywell/AT&T Multics project. Brian and I had just started working with an early release of Pascal from Professor Nichlaus Wirth's ETH labs in Switzerland and we were impressed with it's elegant simplicity and power. Dennis had just finished reading 'Bored of the Rings', a hilarious National Lampoon parody of the great Tolkien 'Lord of the Rings' trilogy. As a lark, we decided to do parodies of the Multics environment and Pascal. Dennis and I were responsible for the operating environment. We looked at Multics and designed the new system to be as complex and cryptic as possible to maximize casual users' frustration levels, calling it Unix as a parody of Multics, as well as other more risque' allusions. Then Dennis and Brian worked on a truly warped version of Pascal, called 'A'. When we found others were actually trying to create real programs with A, we quickly added additional cryptic features and evolved into B, BCPL and finally C. We stopped when we got a clean compile on the following syntax:
for(;P(" "),R--;P("|"))for(e=C;e--;P("_"+(*u++/8)*962))P("
To think that modern programmers would try to use a language that allowed such a statement was beyond our comprehension! We actually thought of selling this to the Soviets to set their computer science progress back 20 or more years. Imagine our surprise when AT&T and other US corporations actually began trying to use Unix and C! It has taken then 20 years to develop enough expertise to generate even marginally useful applications using this 1960's technological parody, but we are impressed with the tenacity (if not common sense) of the general Unix and C programmer. In any event, Brian, Dennis and I have been working exclusively in Pascal on the Apple Macintosh for the past few years and feel really guilty about the chaos, confusion and truly bad programming that have resulted from our silly prank so long ago."
Major Unix and C vendors and customers, including AT&T, Microsoft, Hewlett- Packard, GTE, NCR, and DEC have refused comment at this time. Borland International, a leading vendor of Pascal and C tools, including the popular Turbo Pascal, Turbo C and Turbo C++, stated they had suspected this for a number of years and would continue to enhance their Pascal products and halt further efforts to develop C. An IBM spokesman broke into uncontrolled laughter and had to postpone a hastily convened news conference concerning the fate of the RS-6000, merely stating 'VM will be available Real Soon Now'.
In a cryptic statement, Professor Wirth of the ETH institute and father of the Pascal, Modula 2 and Oberon structured languages, merely stated that P. T. Barnum was correct. ----
The exploitation of the WTC attacks and the aftermath for gain both political and monetary is frankly pretty disgusting. The networks have done it since minute 1, The T-Shirts and baseball caps in stores since day 2 or 3, the covers of magazines, newspapers, the endless story after story of the hardship and painthis all caused.
It truly is terrible. I understand things need to be reported, people need to be made aware, yes its nice to sell things and donate the money to the cause of helping and cleaning up etc. But what of the things that are for profit?
Conspiracy alert?
While I don't think our Government staged the WTC attacks, I do think the biggest 'corporation' that has exploited the situation for both monetary/political gain has been the current administration. It is shameless truthfully: they have introduced radical legislation(covered here), got the wheels of war rolling (the whole gang in charge right now is a who's who of the military industrial complex), and the possibility of the oil connection in the region:
UNOCAL testimony on needing gov support in Afghan region to stabalise for energy plans
Energy Information Administration prospectus on Regions Energy
as well as the total destruction of critical analysis of the job the administration is doing (How can you condemn the pres in this hard time?) by the press , the supposed complete reversal of approval ratings Worldwide, despite the questionable actions, the complete "fsck you" attitude towards allies and UN, has led me to believe that they have taken this ball and run with it.
Off the soapbox and back to the topic. When a company like Sun or Oracle or anyone of that magnitude chimes in ready and willing to go forth with some plan that makes them look good and allows them to profit off of these insane times we are living in makes me really not think to much of the company, nor do I want to have anything to do with them.
I had an idea recently regarding how to implement a national identification card. It wouldn't, in and of itself, prevent people getting on planes and killing everyone, but it would be a very good thing, and here's why.
The card is a smartcard card, with embedded microchip. On the chip is encoded your photograph, unencrypted, and your address, phone number, and a uniquely identifiable number (NOT your social security/social insurance), which are encrypted according to a key based on your fingerprint. Thus, anyone can get your picture from the card merely by putting it into an appropriate card reader, but access to your address, citizen ID number (CID), and so on requires your thumb(index finger,middle finger)print to be accessed.
This allows people to confirm that you are (or look like) who your card says you are without your fingerprint.
When you go into a Blockbuster to get a membership (blockbuster is a bad example because it's international, but bear with me), they take your information, assign you a membership number, and give you a plastic card with a barcode on it. With this national ID card, you would (at the final point in your membership sign-up) insert the card into a card reader that they have, scan in your thumbprint to authenticate, and they would then create your information in the database. The difference, though, is that they would not have to ask you for proof of address, and you would not have to dictate your address or phone number. Also, they would not have to assign you a member number, as your CID could be used (or merely stored and referenced) as your member number in the database.
Privacy whiners could note that Blockbuster does not, with this ID card, know anything more or less than they did before.
The key to this system is that you do not have a centralized database controlled by the government that stores your credit card information, video rental information, and air miles. You do not have all relevant information stored on the card so that anyone can pull it off the card, and the information, if your card is lost, is irretrievable, though it is easy to locate the owner in a crowd or a restaurant, since the picture is printed and stored on the card.
Every store needs their own database, as they do now, so the government can no easier 'track you' than they can now. The government's database would be easily integrated amongst itself (CSIS/RCMP/local police/Immigration Canada could share/cross-access databases), and make working together easier.
Thus, while not a safety measure in and of itself, this card would not stop anything, security officials at airports could integrate their check-in scanners with all of the above agencies (or their local counterparts, for Americans, Britons, etc), and any national red flags would be raised, and the person would be told that there was a problem with their card, and could they please wait a moment.
The card would be free to any citizen/landed immigrant, and a minimal charge ($5? $10? Cost of fabrication) would be asked of any non-citizen resident (students, foreign nationals, diplomats). Anyone not posessing a card would be ineligable for most services at most institutions.
(Worried about 'manditory ID'? Try getting a bank account without a driver's license, or a passport without a birth certificate, or even a Blockbuster card without at least an addressed letter)
The idea certainly isn't perfeclty thought out, but I think it's pretty well laid out. I wish Canada WOULD do something like this, because as a non-driving individual who gets little mail and doesn't posess a credit card, the only ID I have is a two-year old learner's license from a different province, and a Social Insurance Card that has only my name and a number on it.
--Dan
If you find that outlook immature, I suggest you go back to dreaming of the day when the world is just like Star Trek <cough>
Having a unique ID number which is accessible to anyone permits cross-correlating databases and other methods of mining data and constructing profiles of people. Also, if there was a bar code or similar machine-readable encoding of the number on the ID card, then soon anyone (airline, dentist, grocery store, border guard, building security) would start swiping the card and recording our movements and activities in a way that would be very easy to combine in giant databases.
You described my credit cards and my social security number. If you work in the United States you should have a social security number. If you don't then you're probably working here illegally. We might as well just take the next step and have a national ID card that uses your SSN since everyone probably memorized it already anyway.
"When a place gets crowded enough to require ID's, social collapse is not far away. It is time to go elsewhere. The best thing about space travel is that it made it possible to go elsewhere."
-- Lazarus Long
oh stop denying it, you want to fellate him and we all know it.
I don't know much on the specifics of this "Liberty Alliance Project" nor do I work for Sun,
.NET, Sun decided to start marketing this as some form of web authentication. . . .
however this seems to be another case of the infamous Sun vaporware that does everything for everyone.
If I remember correctly, this started off as a PCMCIA card that you slap into any running SunRay (dumb graphics terminal) and you're instantly logged in.
The idea was that you have all your apps run on a large E10k run by an ISP or "appication service provider" and you slap your PCMCIA card into the SunRay at your house and open StarOffice, per say. Then you leave StarOffice open, pull your card, the screen gets locked and then you go to work and slap your PCMCIA card into your SunRay there and voila! StarOffice and the document you were working on is now right in front of you. The reason for this, of course, is that you're app never stopped running -- it was on the E10k and the DISPLAY changed with the slip of your PCMCIA card.
Later, when MS introduced
Now that Sep. 11th happened, it's a national ID.
Remember Jini? Sun said that it was going to change the world and connect everything from your toaster to your car to your computer? That was a huge VAT of vaporware that was simply a collection of protocols (Sun would have you believe that it was a HW/SW solution for everything).
Java was supposed to change everything, too. It was not vaporware, however because of browser incompatability most people resort to server-side Java (which defeats the purpose of cross-platform -- YOU KNOW THE PPLATFORM OF YOUR SERVER!) and does not even come close o solving all the problems that Sun claimed in practice.
The "vaporware" mentality of selling somthing very simple to everyone in the planet telling them that it's going to fix all thier problems has killed much of Sun's credability. It worked with Java, but people know better now and they should cut this crap before no one listens to thier marketing at all.
Microsoft believes its customer base of 120 million will make it dominant in the field.
The the courts aren't taking more aggressive action at breaking up their monopoly power? Make Passport dominant in the face of Sun's superior product design. They are definitely right - that user base will make their product dominant. Come on DOJ, do something!
Why bother.
It is amazing that you would say that the Arabs are attacking us because we "resemble" the people that screwed them over. Maybe it is because there are no real major Arabic democracies in the world, and those that say they are are simply faking it... Perhaps they have a ruling class that ALLOWS "those white guys" to screw them over at the benefit of the ruling class. It is a technique that has been used for ages. "DON'T screw the king for the problems he made over money... screw the advisor and his partners." "White guys" have made money in that region and done unethical things. So have the Japanese manufacturers in the USA. Get used to it. They don't have Democracies. This is where their problems lie. This is all political, and trying to incite violence and a Muslim uprising world wide. So what if a nation was screwed. Trying to make a genocidal run at World War Three is way out of the ethical ballpark on any ten nations getting screwed.
Bad practices or whatever, you can't justify the suicide killings of SIX THOUSAND PEOPLE no matter what you say. Keep in mind that this man hates the whole world.
Then they'll eventually just keep getting more and more angry until they reach critical mass and destroy themselves.
``Let me ask you. There are two different airlines. Airline A says before you board that airplane you prove you are who you say you are. Airline B, no problem. Anyone who wants the price of a ticket, they can go on that airline. Which airplane do you get on?''
I think this is a great, free-markety solution, no? Ellison, McNealy, and all the paranoids who want to be tagged, identified, background-checked, searched, folded, spindled, and/or mutilated can sign up for a authoritative ID card and go on airline A (and preferably pay for said security with their tickets); those of us who think the convenience of a (hopefully cheaper) no questions-asked cash ticket is worth sacrificing the illusion of security can fly airline B, arrive 15 minutes before takeoff and hop on a plane to wherever we're going like the daring free risk-takers we are.
Personally I think a National ID system that is digital would be of a lot of benefit. Not just for combating terrorism or even crime in general, but also just for general convenience. For example, if you were unconcious at an accident an ambulance could scan your digital ID to look up in a database the best methods to treat you. A national ID system doesn't sacrifice liberty or privacy if done well.
.. A few days after the trade center bombing and he was asked what his stocks had done and if thinks Oracle will survive his response was "If the company goes down I will still have enough money to live more than the rest of my life."
I lost my respect for oracle after that.
The world is an unsafe place, that was true even before the attacks. If someone wants to kill someone people bad enough he's going to get me no matter what I do. Yes, we should take precautions but let's not get carried away here.
McNealy says ``I'm tired of the outrage. If you get on a plane, I want to know who you are. If you rent a crop duster, I want to know who you are,''
He's going for the knee jerk reaction here. Maybe he should also propose that the card have an American flag on them.
I wouldn't worry about air travel nowadays, if I had a reason to travel I wouldn't hesitate in the least. If I had the money I would take my family to Disney World now. The news footage I saw with no lines looks a lot better than the last time I was there.
The unthinkable was done, it shocked everyone, but now the element of surprise is gone. Terrorists aren't going to use a commercial plane anymore than the Japenese were going to come back to Pearl Harbor a month later.
I crop duster, why worry about that, a crackpot a few years ago only needed a rental truck. He could have just as easily stolen a truck one night and carried the attack out the next morning. There's no limit to the evil things some people are capable of if they are determined. I'm sure they'll come up with something just as evil and unexpected.
How about confidentiality of the card information? I'm sure you wouldn't have to physically present you card for every transaction you want to do. Are they going to tie all of my accounts into one card? Oh, that would be great, now if I call an order into one unscrupulous place, I'm locked out of all my accounts until the banks straighten it out.
I mean I'm all for all of these companies proposing these things, the more companies involved touting their own standard the longer it will take for someone to agree on a standard. As long as each individual company can buy enough poliiticians I mean.
I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people. - Jack Handey
I think one major issue is missed: none of the damn terrorists were usa citizens. NONE. Who freaking cares about the national IDs? I'm not a usa citizen [although I live there], and I can present any ID that I wish.
So my question is, how will this matter to the overall security?
--- d'oh
Id card? How archaic.
How about everyone get tatooed from birth with a barcode on the back of each hand and across the forehead. Us old timers can get tatooed the next time we go to renew our driver's licence.
Every piece of data and credit information can then be linked to that code! Imagine the convenience. Wanna buy some groceries and put it on the visa? swipe the head. The liquor store cashier doesn't believe you're old enough to buy beer? swipe the left hand. Oops! lost your left hand playing with the buzz-saw? That's ok, swipe the right hand.
Finally, my dreams are coming closer to reality. Damn though, I shoulda patented the idea first.
Personally, I don't see what the big deal is - it's not like we're not all "numbered" anyway (SSN, SIN). An "ID card" just puts a face on it, that's all.
BTW: This is kinda relevant: A while ago the Canadian government had tried to centralize all the gov't held data on all its citizens in one central database. Huge storm of controversy erupted and the government was forced to disband the system (or so we're told). At the time the biggest concern wasn't so much "big brother" but rather that "a hacker" could break into ONE computer and get EVERYTHING on any given person (as opposed to having to break into a half dozen system to get the same data). I suspect a national ID card would somehow necessitate or precipitate just such a central repository though.
I mean, if I decided I hated the government, what's stopping me from getting the card THEN doing bad things?
He's just trying to get the government to buy some Sun Fire 15K servers.
-Jon
We cannot not let petty issues like "freedom" stand in the way of protecting American ideals.
this is my sig.
and of course my interpretation:
"and he was given power to give breath to the first beast so that it might speak 'You've got mail' and smote those who did not use the 'Holy-CD-of-Never-Ending-Ad-Revenue'. And he forced every person small and great, rich or poor, to carry the beasts mark, a small blue triangle, in the palm of their hand and ingrained upon their brain. This so that noone could buy or sell or listen to music unless they had the mark of the beast, not even Microsoft... ESPECIALLY not Microsoft. And so, after air was raised a dollar to $24.95 in the claims of better compatibility and more features, just as the Oracle had prophisied the Sun would power the mark of the beast forever and there would be no escape (except maybe during times of heavy garbage collection or due to a hardware problem because of faulty memory, but the Beast required an NDA to fix that so it doesn't officially exist).
Government suggests National ID card, complete with DNA: "No, not a chance, keep away from me Big Brother!"
Ellison suggests National ID card, tracked in an national Oracle DB: "No! What are you, son kind of nut? This isn't Japan, buddy!"
McNealy suggests National ID card, powered by Java: "No! Now go away and stop trying to oppress me!"
However...
Microsoft suggests a National ID card, powered by WindowsID: "Gee, you really think that's a good idea, huh? Well, OK, if the world's richest man says it's really for our own good, I'll go along."
Then, from across the ocean, the people of France hear a loud, collective "Moo"
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
When this first was brought up a week after Sept 11, Oracle was all for doing the system for free. And as for this whole thing about us already having ID's, if you make an ID that is checked against a computer database, it is extremely hard for someone to make a fake one, because they have to reproduce the card, the magnetic stripe, and hack into the database. A fairly realistic driver's liscence can be made by some 13 year old with a scanner, a printer, and a trip to Kinko's. How many fake credit cards with fake accounts have you heard of that have been produced?
I forgot where I read it, probably on The Onion, they should only let born again people fly and have people submit to baptisms before boarding the planes.
'Same speed C but faster'
I call for RMS and Eric Raymond to join forces and create an OpenSource ID card - The APIs would be known to everyone, you would know exactly what's on your card and in the database at all times, everyone could setup their own ID servers and alter their cards when needed.
Remember Lexington Green!
From the Frengini Society. Freedom over profit?
First I can't get over the naivete of some people in here. I was trying to read through all the comments before posting, but I hit a trough of posts indicating that people want to select *precisely* what is listed on their report, *precisely* who can access the report, and other crap. I know that there are people here who have had to deal with identity theft, and that shit must be pretty sobering. But seriously people, you need to let go of your pipe dreams.
I recently picked up several prescriptions for recovering from surgery, and when I logged into Eckerd.com (a pharmacy), my "customized" home page featured a section on how much I could have saved if I had purchased my recent prescriptions from them. WHAT??!?! How the FRIG did you get that info, and what the hell are you doing displaying it on an unencrypted web page? Boy was I pissed about that. But WTF can I do? By the time I was pissed it was already done. And what am I going to do? Write my fucking CONGRESSMAN? Please. Arlen Fucking Specter is my asshole in Washington.
Anyway, my thought on how to make the ID card uncrackable would be to use a biometric as an encryption key against the owner's SSN. How many unique points can you get off an iris? I know thumbprints may occasionally be unavailable, but how many people have had *both* eyes removed? I'm guessing far fewer. Even with only 512 bits generated by an iris, that would never be stored anywhere.
I can see imaging units the size of today's supermarket debit/credit card scanners with a card slot. Insert your ID card, put your chin in the dimple, and the reader certifies your identity by decrypting a GPG'd copy of your SSN on the card using your iris as the key. I would think that would be pretty impossible to fake.
Intelligent Life on Earth
Oracle offered to create the National ID card program for free (including software and consulting services). I guess they might be exploiting the situation by creating brand recognition, but come on.
Its unfortunate but its seems that Slashdot has really gone down hill lately. I see mis-informed posts like this more and more often...
In the darkest 1950s Cold War hysteria, when U.S. Sen. Joe McCarthy, R-Wi., was demanding that Congress toss aside the Constitution in order to hunt down the agents of his "red menace," a move was made by the Republican attorney general of the United States to expand the the use of information gathered through wiretapping in cases of espionage and sabotage. The proposal required Senate approval, which seemed assured as the shadow of McCarthyism hung heavy over the Capitol.
One senator, Wayne Morse, a Republican senator from the state of Oregon, stood alone in opposition to increased use of wiretaps on the phone lines of those suspected of subversion. Wiretapping phones was, Morse said, "a police state tactic." When the attorney general pressed his case before the Senate, Morse countered that, "I am shocked that an attorney general of the United States should believe Gestapo methods are needed in detecting Gestapo elements."
At every turn, and at considerable political cost, the Oregon senator fought the wiretapping plan. And his relentless defense of the right to privacy paid off. As Morse's biographer, Mason Drukman, recalls, "the bill ultimately died in the Judiciary Committee, one of the few measures of its kind to fail during the McCarthy era."
Morse's battle against the wiretapping scheme was recalled this week when, in an equally hysterical moment, the Senate was again asked to massively increase the ability of a Republican attorney general to wiretap phones -- and, now, Internet communications. Again, one senator stood up to the rush to rip of the Constitution.
U.S. Sen. Russ Feingold's courageous moves to challenge the most irresponsible and unnecessary components of Attorney General John Ashcroft's "anti-terrorism" agenda won him few friends in the Senate. The Wisconsin Democrat broke not just with Republicans but with the overwhelming majority of fellow Senate Democrats -- who were willing to sacrifice fundamental rights on the altar of Ashcroft's ambition.
Ashcroft and his Senate allies have been promoting a grab bag of police-state proposals that will do little to reduce the threat of terrorism, while doing much to increase the threat to civil liberties. In addition to seeking permission to conduct "roving wiretaps," the Ashcroft proposal was written to permit greatly expanded computer surveillance, and to permit government agents to secretly search private homes.
read more: http://www.thenation.com/thebeat/
someone sent me this link the other day about the terrorists being here on H1B visa's. Here is the link http://visa.servecounterstrike.com/ . I think you should take a look.
I won't use open source software because it's inherently better. It isn't. I won't use it because it's morally better. It isn't. But I also won't use commercial software and hardware produced by companies who think their role in the world is not to produce products and services which fulfill my needs, but to twist the politial world into an image which furthers their ends, or is tailored to their personal political agendas or beliefs.
Put simply, and excuse me for being a bit annoyed at the moment, if you want my business, build a good box, write quality software, and shut your mouth. I resent you using the soapbox of your position in the industry, which you have ONLY because I and people like me buy your products, to promote your political agenda.
Zealots tend to be written off by people as lunatics.
;)
Look at Stallman.
a poem by Drew
--///--
Ellison's motives come from below.
Look in his eyes. What do they show?
You may think that smile is for the stockholders,
but his home is Hades, where all evil smoulders.
His Chief DBA is the Dark Prince of Lies,
His unholy power is version 9i.
You thought that this baby ate up RAM before?
For version 9i, you'll buy six times more!
What violence will come of these columns and rows?
SQL*plus is the reaper of souls!
To commit is sure folly; to roll-back, calamity.
A cartesian join will doom all of humanity!
Constraints are forged of titanium chains,
and triggers are hardwired into your brain.
A single long int marks your identity --
The mark of the beast is a primary key.
The language of Satan? PL/SQL --
How else would he store his procedures in Hell?
You'll live in dread fear of the keyword DELETE.
The mark of the beast is a primary key.
Oracle 9i is a harbinger of Dark!
(But I cannot say more; nor publish benchmarks.)
But you value your soul, so my words you will heed:
The mark of the beast is a primary key.
--///--
Thank you.
The scheme was set up to get around the teenage drinkers in hotels, even though they're 18, not having a licence.
OS/2 - because choice is a terrible thing to waste.
In Germany there is a need to carry ID at all times. Also if you move you have to register with the police within 2 weeks or be fined. And foreigners will need this registration to, e.g., get a bank account. If you take into account that wages will almost always be paid to a bank account and not as cash or check, this creates a pretty good facility to track people with no outside (cash!) funding.
These measures where introduced to find domestic terrorists that want to survive their acts of terror and it does help to a certain extend. It makes it also more difficult for people wanted by the police to hide. However it does only help against terrorists that stay in the county for a longer time and are active for some time.
It does not help to find one-time terrorists. It does not help to identify terrorists that have not done anything wrong yet. It does not help to find terrorists that have strong support from the population (a.k.a. freedom fighters). All it does is to significantly improve the chances of identifying a terrorist that moves around and strikes multiple times. That was enough reason to introduce it, and I believe it has actually helped somewhat to bring about the end of the Red Army Fraction. At least they had be far more careful and spend more effort on hiding and less on doing terrorism.
On the other hand it provides the gouvernment with a possibility to track its citizens. That is also a risk. And the worst kind of terrorism is that done by a totalitarian gouvernment against its citizens. So some balance has to be found.
One thing done in Germany in the past was to restrict access to and use of the collected data.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted and ignored otherwise.
Social Engineering.
Plus, control is the last measure.
Suggesting this is flat out unfair. The kind folks at Oracle offered their software for free. I'm not sure what McNealy is calling for, but he doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to do such a thing. I could be wrong though.
Why don't we just get the guys who tattooed the jews in Nazi Germany to run our national ID program? They seemed to be effective.
It's just sad to know that the world that we have all become so accustomed to will now be changing and changing rapidly. Two months ago, people would be in an uproar if there were military guards at local airports or even train stations. But now, they are just common in a number of major cities. Two months ago, we would be in an uproar if a certain website stores one tiny bit of information about you, but now there are talks about carrying National ID cards.
Ladies and gents, I think it's time that we must get used to the fact that the freedom that we enjoyed months ago will now be slowly erroding.
On another note, back in the early 90s, NJ DMV (Motor Vehicles) was talking about creating a standardize drivers license with Social Security Card, Medical Insurance and others... This went through the state legistlature and was batted down because of they feared that they were intruding too much on the rights of the individuals.
My two cents is that..yes things must change. But we mustn't let the recent events cloud our visions of how the government is slowly infringing on the freedom of the people. Once they do this, the terrorist have won their war.
_______________________________
"I'm not Conceited...I'm just a realist..."
Here in Canada a national ID was previously (something like 20 years ago) defeated in a referendum. I think the main issue was privacy. Now, I can understand how someone might not want the government to know all about you, but if they've got my birth cirtificate, passport, driver's licence, mailing address, phone number, school records, tax information, health care records, etc. I don't really see how only using a single card for identification would make it any less private. The different agencies would probably only use it as a key, so the data that they store wouldn't be shared. If banks, credit card companies, insurance companies, and clubs, etc. want to use it as a key as well, it's just saving a lot of hassle with all the different shit we have to put up with. Anyone try to get something but find out you need a credit card, driver's licence, or another piece of id for age validation or something? That's stupid, and a single id with some personalized rules allowing information sharing would be better. What could they find out that they don't already know? Maybe they might not find out as much with this. To a bank you're only a SIN, to a bar you're only an age, to the cops you've just got a class 5 licence and a gun permit (and maybe even some hard time), whatever.
Everyone can just tell me their name for the low price of $5 each! It's perfect! I'll remmember, I swear!
... they want this national ID to help fight terrorism and such, is the same you don't want it: easy to cross data and check for "non-normal" things.
Any talk of cards, numbers or biometrics (retina, facial recog) is bullshit. True identity security can only be implemented by a global org that would uniquely identify individuals according to nationality by way of a permanent ID method that would KILL you if altered or removed. Only then will you know who your neighbour is.
So to anyone wishing for true identity security, consider what your life will be like when the Central Repository crashes and you are no longer in the database. Oops, you never existed. You are now an identity Nomad. Have a Nice Day.
Dude did you even know that in Islam, homosexuality is totally forbidden?!! I guess not, dipshits like you are the ones who reply to chain mails sayin Bill Gates will give $5 for every fuckin mail you forward.
:-)
This is a real case in point that these days you may say anything about them Islam/Arabs and people will believe that shit
The REAL issue is where you have to present said ID card.
This is absolutely correct. During the Soviet rule national ID had to be carried all the time and presented virtually everywhere. Airline? Show your ID. Check into a hotel? Show your ID. No, you can't check in with that lady because the ID does not identify her as your wife (I am serious, that's how it worked). Want to apply for a job? Show ID. No, you can't have the job because your address of residence is listed in another town. The ID had to be updated if you changed apartments.
Are you guys ready to give up that much of your freedom?
In the present day Russia the ID turned into a useless Soviet relic which solves no problems. It just keeps a few beaurocrats from looking for a new job. It's just funny to see how much things have changed in the last 10 years.
It is even simpler than that: We don't care about the Taliban or Bin Laden. We just needed a scapegoat real fast. We still don't have the proof and even though Taliban asked for a proof we didn't provide them any. Guilty until proven innocent!
I am afraid, nations around the world will use this same lame excuse to wage war against us. We have a great knack for racking up enemies all over the world. But hey, who's thinking these days???!!
A related issue is whether such cards are best as national. However secure it may be, if it is forged or broken into and there is only one such thing to forge or break into, that's it, you're in totally.
Sure, digital techniques might improve any given security check but sacrificing many such checks (one for American Express, a different one for Visa, a different one for your frequent flier card, a different one for your driver's license, and so on) for one centralized check will not improve security. At least with 37 different ID cards, there are 37 chances for the terrorist to make an error, and even 37 chances for him to be caught sweating and looking shifty or worried. Making a national ID is likely to lead to people phasing out other checks (just as ubiquitous use of the social security number has begun to do), and that can only be bad...
Kent M Pitman
Philosopher, Technologist, Writer
Multipass....Multipass..Leeloo Dalas Multipass
It did not stop terrorists from blowing two buildings into pieces.
You get passport here at 16 and you have to show it to patrols (at least in Moscow), you have to provide its number when you buy or sell car, rent a hotel room, get hired, etc, etc.
What do you do with those individuals (of which I am one myself) who refuse to be photographed for an ID card? Many states issue non-photo licenses for those with religious objections. (2 states issue non-photo licenses for anyone.)
MacNealy says: "I'm tired of the outrage. If you get on a plane, I want to know who you are. If you rent a crop duster, I want to know who you are."
Well, tough shit, Scott. I don't give a flying fuck what you demand. I'm an American citizen, and I don't have to prove it to you, or Ellison, or any other nosy bastard who wants to make a billion dollars on tools for totalitarians. If you're afraid of me, carry a gun.
When the people of this country elect a self-serving marketing dink like you to some responsible position, then your demands carry some weight. Until then, you can go fuck yourself.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
sounds like a Social Security Number....
if you notice the pyramid on the back of the US 1$ bill you will see the Oracle (the eye) and behind the eye you will see the Sun rays illuminating the eye. Sun and Oracle are reiterating plans for the global ID card.
The card use option. (30k per pocket)
The internet option (250000k, if you want to show the card to a representative of an entity that runs a website)
A backup license for your card data (it's hefty with 490k, but you need it. Since you're a terrorist, when you lose your data)
documentation (10k, per pocket + 25 k flat for the internet option) and
maintenance fee 220k per year, flat.
If yoy want the card in a color of choice, that's $15 extra...
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
If I was required to have a national ID that linked me to all of my personal records and history I would move to Brainainia. To think someone might think to impliment such a thing in the name of social security....well I guess it's time to pack and get my shots.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
yep, what do you expect from a guy that goes whining to the govt when his competor whups on him....
i can't even stand to look at that guy... he looks almost as evil as, as.... tony blair, the mad bomber of britain.....
i have this feeling tho, most slashdoters (hating MS so bad) don't see the relation between getting the govt to attack your competitors and the govt forcing everyone of its citizens to carry an id card....
its all part of the same industirio-governmental access that people think is there to protect them, but is actually there to stifle competition ( in the name of fairness)
ah, cripes, dont get me started
grrrrrr
Let's teach these pretty-boy billionaires a lesson. Boycott Oracle, use Postgres SQL. Boycott Sun, go for Linux boxen.
don't fuck with the geeks. especially if you are one of our own... it's an honor thing.
Don't blame me - I voted for Howard Dean. http://dean2004.blogspot.com
At least Microsoft hasn't tried to link thier Passport technology in with this national ID card
Like bicycle locks and car alarms, a universal, centrally-administered digital ID card represents an item that would be totally unneccesary if it weren't for the criminal element in society.
Car alarms are the reason we now have carjackings. Used to be, they just stole your car. Then everyone started getting car alarms, and it became easier and safer (for the criminal) to wait until the car was underway before stealing it!
I was watching NBC last night and the had the oracle CEO. They said that half of the hijackers were here on expired visas. Oracle wants an ID for all non-US citizens and the US citizens who want them. The hijackers were only required to show the ID of the person who bought the tickets. If Oracle has its way, the database will match up your thumb prints to see if you are supposed to be here. The only disadvantege is new hardware is required for all airports and other secure locations.
Well, most likely Bill G will get the monopoly on this whole shooting match. Great. Now my ID card will Blue Screen when I move the mouse after inserting the CD. Or is that when I fish it out after drinking a quart of milk? Something like that...
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
The One Sure Thing is that terrorists and many other criminals will have all their papers in order. Disorganized people like me will be in trouble. So it's about controlling and tracking people, not preventing anything.
This whole bombing thing has exposed many myths, if you are willing to look. For example: "the Department of Defense is all about Defending America." Well, folks, it _isn't_, because we had to create a Department of Homeland Defense. Apparently, homeland defense doesn't fall in the jurisdiction of the DoD. Incidentally, it used to be called the War Department.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. My job is developing and maintaining a database engine as part of the head end of one of my companies products. One of my first thoughts when I heard about the national ID card plan was "I could track them all in real time." It struck me as a technical problem, only later did I even consider the rights violations.
No matter who suggests this type of plan, it's everyone's duty to send off a quick e-mail to your congressman/woman and house rep to tell them that we will not stand for this type of scrutiny or restriction. http://www.senate.gov/senators/senator_by_state.cf m
http://www.houseofrepresentatives.com/
I will not be tracked like some type of animal and if it means I don't know who is flying on a plane with me I will take that risk. If I loose my freedom or loose my life I will always choose to die rather than have my freedom taken away. Capitalism/Socialism is such a bad mix even the average intelligence should be able to see the dollar signs of Mr. McNealy and the Mr. Ellison or Bill. Whoever has these ideas is firmly rooted in the marketing aspects of the identity-tracking plan. If they can track people they can find out what you buy and where you buy it and a thousand other things. If the insurance company could tell that you have made the purchase of a parachute and that you also own a four wheel drive pickup truck do you think that insurance company will charge you the same as the person to only buys movies and stays home all the time? The former would be charge a hell of a lot more and the later would get off paying less. That would save the companies tons of money.
Drugs are given away, in the beginning, on the streets and what do that lead to? Addiction is the answer and we all know addiction is bad unless you harness it and make a ton of money. Always there is a price to be paid, yet I could only hope that I'm not the only one willing not to give up what has made this nation great, freedom. Free ID cards from Microsoft, Oracle, Sun or the guy next door is wrong. It might be a good idea to organize folks around you who feel the same way and speak out. God knows I have. Peace.
So Sun and Oracle are willing to put up all this technology and infrastructure, get hundreds of government employees to run the systems and offices, and there will be no cost to me? Excuse me while I go laugh myself into a coma.
You want me to pay for it? Get real!
Digitalman
A database, Oracle rarely runs in under 512MB RAM (it needs it for its JVM, too), and don't forget the disk drive to take the GBytes of code bloat that Oracle sells as a product..
And we have a "Really Smart Card(tm)" that probably weights a couple of pounds, runs on two car batteries for about 2 or 3 days and has all the usefulness of a... dead dog.
I don't want no stinking Sun/Oracle solution, it's no solution, it's the problem.
I know for a fact that no one will read this, since I am replying to late. :-)
I think that the people on slashdot is very worried about national IDs but they are certanly forgetting about much more serious things that the bush goverment wants to push throught the throats of the americans and in some case the world citizens. Lost of privacy over phones and email, the allowance to accept confessions gotten with the use of torture (unless this torture was made in american soil). All of these were in the anti-terrorism act that bush proposed in the american congress.
[]'s Victor Bogado da Silva Lins
^[:wq
What about a microchip planted under the skin for ID? It would come up as a legitimit ID without giving up any type of number. If yours is forged, it would be quite obvious. I wouldn't want to see it used to buy something, just a means of identification.
And didn't each and every one of the hijackers present valid ID?
How long did it take them to identify every hijacker? Three days? Do we really think it actually took them that long, that they didn't just wait that long to announce it?
Sun: Well, we think everyone should have an ID card.
Thinker: Everyone does.
Sun: Well, it doesn't have Java.
Stupid Pol: Java is good, right? The people like Java? It's like coffee, people love coffee. I'm going to vote for this coffee card, people carry around coffee cards all the time, they get free coffee. Who wouldn't support that!?
My Karma was at 49, then they switched to words. All that work for nothing!
a driver license is too easy to obtain and to forge. you guys need something better then that.
it'll have oracle and java, you see, so you won't be able to fake it!
this issue will get so much spin, it's not funny.
Maybe it could be effective in protecting against identity theft?
Like most Europeans I have a (mandatory) national - in my case German - I.D., and up to this point I do not feel spied on or deprived of any kind of liberty.
;)
In the U.S., the attitude towards a national I.D. seems to range from scepticism to demonization to outright paranoia.
This is an honest question, not trying to make anyone angry: What's the big deal? How does a national ID infringe on liberties?
Alex
P.S.: If you would like to tell me that Europe is already under the control of Martians/Illuminati/New World Order/Jews/Bilderbergs etc.: Please don't. In that case, I would like to stay ignorant and cheerful
Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder
I use M$ as an example, because the public's generally very willing acceptance of whatever rotten schemes they try to pull off with each release of Windows, probably because the public couldn't be bothered with technical details (which really aren't so technical, but are disguised as such to discourage anyone looking into them, clever, eh?) I think if there's one private company capable of pulling this off it would be them. Then every couple of years they'd announce an upgrade to your ID card and you'd have to fork over some money...
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
We really don't need another form of identification. We have enough. The only ones that will benefit from this will be the corporations. That's why they are the ones pushing so hard for it.
/.? A.C. of course.) You think you have no privacy now? Just wait until a national identity card is mandated and the government and corporations can keep a tab of every single thing that you do. You think that's bad? Just wait until they mandate that some mark be put on your body in order for you to buy or sell anything. Only then will you understand what it means to be persecuted. You supposedly have a democratic republic or whatever so right now, you supposedly have the ability to fight these things before they become law. Don't fail to do so. Protect your privacy. Don't be complacent.
A corporation is an entity that exists solely for the purpose of making money, not for any imaginably virtuous or socially caring reason. They do not care in the least for you. Any dealing they have with you is for the purpose of using you to attain greater profit and power.
Security is important, but so also are privacy and anonymity. (Afterall, what do you think is the single most important account on
Rough times are ahead. A word is enough for the wise. Beware of the Mark of the Beast.
An internal passport is the tool of a repressive regime. Stalin introduced them to Russian and they're still using them.
I never thought I'd ever agree with Texas Republicans about anything.
In Ecuador, there is a little boy named Jose who sells lemonade to tourists. I have been watching him closely, and have not seen him do a single thing to exploit the "tragedy".
I hope this helps to restore your faith.
Not everyone drives. Not even in the motor-happy US.
If an ID card is to be had, why not base it on passports? Kill two birds with one stone.
My new license has a magnetic stripe on it and a bar-code, how much more do they need? Military ID's have the whole obverse side covered with 2-D 'puter code. If they are not using this now, why complicate it even more with a new system. Even if the contained data is encrypted, it my data and therefore unique, recordable and traceable.
What we don't need is an other level of beauacracy on top of what's already there, we need to actualy use what we have now enough to judge if a slight modification might be needed. Coordinate state drivers licenses should be enough. Maybe tighten up what documentation you need to get a license or state ID a little.
Oh by the way, if you have a murder warrant out for someone do you want the poor clerk at the Sec of States branch to freak out when she sees it; or say "It'll be mailed to this address in about ten days"? Mike Davis, spokesman for the Baltimore County Executive Office doesn't have a clue as to what deep inside the State's database when an arrest warrarnt flag trigger's a proceedure (actualy I don't either, but at least I'm not pretending to) Isn't it easier for a trained cop to stake out a mail box than to scrape a clerks brains off the wall?
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Most of those arrest warrents are for people who haven't paid traffic tickets, or who have skipped jury duty! For that, they can be arrested and forced to pay fines, but it's just not worth the government's time to track them down. They'll just wait until the next time they happen to get pulled over for a broken tail light or something.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
you can mis-quote Ben Franklin, did you have any constructive input or were you just blowing it out your ass ?? I can see that your well phrased protests to a national ID card are going to carry a lot of weight. Speaking of rocks would you like me to help you back under yours' MORON ?
The scary thing is, it actually ISN'T all that crazy if our CEOs are all talking about it...
How long before we have everyone on earth carrying tracking devices?
Yup. It's well-meaning fools like yourself and David "Slavery is Freedom" Brin who will lead us right to a police state, all in the name of "transparency." Unfortuneately for you, some of us still value our privacy.
We already have a national ID card. It's called a Passport. As a European living stateside, I am really surprised about the resistance about that. I take my passport with me wherever I go. It's no big deal.
I am much more concerned about expanded surveillance powers (unchecked nonetheless) and crooked politicians pushing their (hidden) agendas. Corporate influence peddling and general cluelessness will be the undoing of this great nation.
Do you really believe that the current list of features and uses would be permanent?
Even if they wrote limitations into the original law, they would pass a subsequent law that altered it. More likely, however, they would pass the implementation details to an appointed committee. And those would turn out to be malleable, and unchallengable.
This is a bad idea. All it does is facillitate the centralization of power. It's quite unlikely to provide much protection, and even if it did the cost would be horrendous.
This is a good reason to boycott Oracle. This is a good reason to replace existing Oracle installations with something else.
We don't need to support anyone who would recommend a plan like that.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Linking driver's license data between states does not make for a national ID card. You are not required to get a driver's license, nor are you required to get a walker's ID. You are not required to get any sort of ID right now, and that's the way it should stay.
It is a common practice to revoke the passports of US Citizens who are believed to be engaged in unsavory activity outside of US borders. For instance, if you have dual nationality and are discovered running around the Cayman islands doing a lot of banking, you might find your ability to return to the US hampered. As far as I know, this can be done with no notification or trial.
So the question is, is this ID going to be viewed as a basic right of citizenship, or are there going to be (similar) cases where it could be withheld, revoked or suspended?
...here comes the Microsoft trashing.
<yawn>
In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
The same here in Germany, you even get some problems if you don't carry your ID card with you. Even the children get one, although that's a special one.
;-)
Oh and the most funny advantage is that you have yet another funny picture of you
-- just a geek - trying to change the world
I was listening to this idea on TV -- at first, I was really skeptical. I mean, making US citizens carry around ID cards that they have to have with them at all times! That's like a nazi/communist thing.
But, ID cards as proposed would be voluntary for registered US citizens. That is, you and I, as US citizens, can choose to have an ID card or not to have one. However, they would be mandatory for any aliens/foreign visitors to the US. That is, someone coming from would have to have an ID card. This is OK. After all, these people are not US citizens. The United States is not responsible for upholding the "rights" of anyone other than US citizens.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
Why not use a d3 multivalue database system its cheaper and it can run on linux, plus it puts Oracle to shame.
check out http://www.rainingdata.com
Quiz them a little and they'd start talking about how aliens took Rosie O'Donnell's baby, and you'd be hard-pressed to believe they weren't true Americans!!
It appears that Canada is going forward with its fraud-resistant, mag-strip "Maple Leaf" card for landed immigrants. You can find the link here at Toronto's Globe and Mail.
Many of the used valid ID cards came from the VA DMV, which now is having such a knee jerk reaction that people who where born in the US, served in the US military, and now serve the US government cannot even get valid ID's.
Proof of residence restrictions are amazing. You cannot use your lease, you cannot use work appointment documents.... No you must use a bill (which will take about 45 days to get initially) or a pay stub (a least 40 days out). But according to VA law you must have a valid VA driver's license within 30 days or you are in violation. For people coming in from other states this has become a huge issue.
Yet does this stop someone who has financial backing & a terrorist network from getting ID's there.... probably not.
Common sense isn't so common anymore.
on the back of the US 1$ Bill on the top of the pyramid there is an Oracle (the all seeing eye) and Sun rays illuminating the Oracle
Hey McNealy! Shove that national I.D card up your butt!
Frekin Gestapo oportunist!
I heard that in WWII, there was a joke going around about spotting German spies. You'd ask the suspected spy some incredibly arcane bit of baseball trivia. If he got it right, you shoot him. Only a German spy would study baseball that thoroughly.
Satan still undecided on 'best technology'
eh, someone was gonna do it.
your jesus is another mans xebu. chew on that hypocrites.
How about voluntary (and strictly volutary, not fake volutary like not required to give your SSN, yeah right) for citizens, and mandatory for foriegners.
Right now the US has one of the most open and insecure immigration policies in the world. Canada's is worse (claiming asylum is an automatic in), but the minor barriers to entry the US puts up is hardly better than nothing at all.
Yes, there is the threat of domestic terrorism. However, that is currently very low. The militia movement is nearly dead, and the few remainding threats are under close surviellence already. The threat of random law-abiding citizens conducting an act of terrorism without displaying very prominent warning signs (ie joining one of said militias) ahead of time is nearly zero. Especially now, the threat that is real is from outside.
Now, you might wonder how this will help. Well, if you put checks in place to ensure that people acquiring other forms of ID (drivers licences) are run through to make sure they aren't in the foriegn system, one can prevent them from getting other authentic ID's with fake information. Mark those other ID's to indicate the national ID must also be offered. Yes, it doesn't solve the problem of counterfeit ID's, but it's better the other proposals. Well, I think so. What to all 'yall think?
i thought this social experiment had been crib smothered with the soviets, and the nazi's. i guess not.
does anyone know if Spandow Prison is being 'refurbished'?
In related news, the Canadian government has announced today its first step towards national ID cards - the "maple leaf card" (no folks I am not making this up) to be issued to new immigrants to Canada. Sadly for those of us who would like to see IDs unforgeable, has such groundbreaking new anti-tamper technologies as "magnetic stripes" - (gasps of amazement) and "might one day maybe be upgraded to" fingerprints, etc. Sounds to me that the Canadian government is more interested in rushing something into useage, with no more thought to security than has been put into Canadian "tamper-proof" (read widely counterfeited) passports and other identification cards.
Toronto Star Article
Globe and Mail Article
It will be interesting to see if this card is expanded to cover all Canadian citizens at some point - a recent Globe and Mail Poll suggested 80% of Canadians would be willing to carry and show a national ID card. Of course, like Canadian border security and Canadian passports, this card too will become a farce if its not designed and implemented with a modicum of security. Somehow, to my brain, it seems pretty sketchy to entrust national security to a magnetic-stripe based card.
There are more submarines in Canada's biggest mall (West Edmonton) than in the Canadian Navy.... and Americans have better encryption on the cards in their TV sets (DirecTV, we all know how secure that is) than Canadians will have on their national ID cards. Bleh.
-- "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." (Charles Darwin)
A smart card that stored all my zillions of application/username/passwords, and a smartcard reader on anything that required me to remember a username/password, would be great. I wouldn't have to remember all that stuff. All my passwords would be collected on my smartcard, not on a piece of paper under my bed, not in Hailstorm's databases.
That's a different issue from reporting the same unique id everywhere you go. The same card could do that as well (or not).
It seems like a lot of people in situations like this (like this "Mike Davis" character) use evidence of the current system's incompetence as proof that "we need a bigger bueracracy."
Couldn't have said it better myself...
Who did what now?
False. Totally false. Some of the hijackers, allegedly, used fake identifications put together by using stolen passports. Others reported passports stolen as a way to cleanse them of visa stamps from Afghanistan. If anything, this seems to argue for more linkages of passport systems so that you can know if a criminal from some other country is trying to get in masquerading as an honest citizen who got his passport lifted, or if a terrorist is tryingt to get into the country under a recently cleansed passport.
Or at least, you could. I would suspect that, regardless of what's legal, you probably can't get on a plane without ID since the horrific acts of Sept. 11.
On the books, though, barring any very recent legislation, there is an FAA security directive with very clear and concise instructions on what to do if a passenger cannot or will not show valid ID, or if the ID they show cannot be validated. It says absolutely NOTHING about forbidding them from boarding the aircraft; it only deals with either making sure you thoroughly check all their baggage, or make sure their baggage is only on the plane if they are also on the plane (ie: take it off if they aren't on the plane at takeoff time)
It may actually be illegal to refuse to allow an American citizen to fly on a domestic flight without presenting ID.
Of course.. I'm sure tha'ts been changed recently.
I will NEVER be forced to carry proof of my citizenship or identity to live in this country.
Jail me? Sure. Fine me? OK. Torture me? Ouch. They can have my freedom, but not my acquiescence. I would never acceed to this, and I don't feel any self-respecting freedom-loving American should either.
I'm terribly dissappointed these so-called forward thinkers think so little of our personal liberty. It's really very sad.
The only tool you've got against psychosis is experience.
The UK government has been making further threatening noises that they wish to impose compulsory ID cards, despite earlier reports that they were climbing down, which they now explicitly deny.
Don't be too confident in the security of digitally signed ID cards. Every crook and gangster in the country will be trying to get their hands on it and sooner or later, through thefts threats or bribery, it will leak.
Once that happens, the security of digital signatures becomes a liability, as it makes it possible to produce a perfect and undetectable forgery. The government would be faced with a tough choice: either withdraw and reissue all the cards, with all the time and expense of repeating the validation of identity that had to be done before they were first issued, or they cover it up, and stumble along with a system of ID cards which provide the perfect cover for criminals and terrorists. Any way you look at it it's a loser.
Those who sacrifice a little freedom for something that buys them no extra security at all are really getting a bad deal.
Dave Korn - campaign organizer
http://www.optional-identity.org.uk/
Too bad for you! Microsoft seems to have dropped Windows for Smart Card in May 2000. One of the worst product names ever. Should have been VB for SC.
Now you are stuck with Java Card. Maybe they can fill up on coffee instead of FUD.
Lasers Controlled Games!