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Immersion Sues Sony and Microsoft Over Force Feedback
stereoroid writes: "Immersion Corp. has filed a lawsuit against Sony and Microsoft, alleging unauthorised use of their patents - here's their press release. The suit alleges that any use of touch or force feedback in their consoles violates their patents. For some obscure reason, this was first reported in the Irish Times today."
what about all the coin-ops that had force feedback in the 80's
This whole patent mess is getting absolutely ridiculous! Any idiot could have designed the force feedback stuff, even Microsoft! How did that get a patent on something so simple???
Derek Greene
...Logitech is sued by God over the use of "mouse"
...Barundi tribes sue every computer user because of their "click" language simulated by keyboard presses
..."Patch" Adams, the famous doctor, is suing Microsoft over their use of "Patch"
And, of course, Microsoft patents 1's and 0's :-)
Today, Immersion technologies filed a separate suit against numerous adult "toy" manufacturers for patent infringements relating to a variety of force feedback mechanisms.
The suit names the makers of "orgasmatron" and the makers of the "king donger 3000"
I live my life one quarter pounder at a time -Vinh Diesel
Why don't these companies come out and sue right away if it such a blatant violation of a patent or something? If I were the judge, I'd say "Well, the feedback stuff has been around for 3 years, you say you have had the patent for 5, why'd did you wait so long? Dismissed" Are IP lawyers like amblance chasers? Are there law firms who do nothing but troll IP patents then alert the holder to a violation (and by the way it will only cost you $$$).
"If you are on fire you can just stop, drop, and roll. If you fall into Lava you are just dead." - my 5yr old daughter
I thought Newton would've got all the patents in on force feedback...
A small company designs something and a larger one tries to steal the idea. And yes anyone could have designed it. But immersion put in the time and resources to do it and that's why they should have a monopoly for it for a short time. Otherwise no one would bother to make new things. Why spend time and money on R&D when someone else will just steal the idea and make money of it.
Doesn't this (and the linking patent) fall under some sort of Abandonment law? I thought that there was some rule where you had to seek action within X number of years once you had knowledge of an infringement and once that time frame ran out you lost your patent rights based on abandonment...IINAL of course, so a reply from one would likely be handy.
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...that Nintendo isn't mentioned. Is it perhaps that Nintendo calls it "Rumble" instead of "force-feedback"?
For some obscure reason, this was first reported in the Irish Times today.
You mean because the Times scooped their competition? What's so unusual about that? Because it's not a US paper? Not all tech-savvy newspapers are located in the States, you know. Ireland has a thriving tech industry, so it's not all that surprising that they break a tech story now and again.
--Jim
I didn't see the exact patent numbers that were supposedly infringed on. Looking at Immersion's patents, it seems they are for real force feedback. Like making a controller harder to push when you are up against a wall. Not the nerve killing vibrations of the current console controllers. Microsoft did make a true force feedback joystick for the PC though.
Well it isn't a software patent, and the suit is against two big corps we love to hate. But if they are claiming a patent on a vibrating controller, I think there may be prior art.
Oh, one more thing. What happens with companines like Logitech (who also made a true force feedback joystick) that licensed the technology, if the patent is declared invalid. Can they sue for the license fees that they paid?
Clearly I have prior art claims, since when I was 11 or so my friends and I would take turns hitting each other while we played with our Atari.
My favorite from a quick glance over their patents is number 80 on their list.
"Implementing Force Feedback Over the World Wide Web and Other Computer Networks ". Taking a fairly common feature, and saying it can work over a network. Any network. A quick skim through the patent listing didn't have any reference to a specific unique protocol or anything that they designed.
Are they talking about realtime streaming of force feedback data? Are they talking about embedding that stuff in webpages? If I have my computer shake my mouse a little bit every time an FTP connection fails, can they sue me? It makes no sense.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
Here's the link to the original article, as it's not on the front page any more. Not much to it really
Firm sues Microsoft, Sony over joystick vibration
If the trees are in the west
I got myself one of those Logitech Mouseman iFeel immersion-technology mouses. It's ridiculous. It even plays music. Yes, the mouse plays music, resembling the floppy drive music back in 80's, you can play tunes on it by adjusting the vibration, en the default drivers does just that.
It feels like you're holding a shaver, not like you could feel the icons on your desktop or anything like that.
"Based on the Greek word, "haptesthai," meaning touch, haptic technology enables people to feel touch sensations while interacting with a digital display, like a computer screen and a hardware device such as a joystick or mouse."
kinda like masturbating your computer....
Sent from your iPad.
Let them sue sony and microsoft, in the end can't they (IMMERSION) be held liable for hand injuries? Hand injury due to vibrating controllers
I SURVIVED THE GREAT SLASHDOT BLACKOUT OF 2002!
And In Next Weeks News. Microsofts Hostile Takeover of Immersion Corp
then the following weeks news:
Microsoft Files Suit Against Sony Computer Entertainment for Patent Infingement
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Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.
Immersion, upon winning a lawsuit regarding force feedback, finds itself the target of a MASSIVE class action lawsuit after a Slashdot article brought this stirring subject to the attention of soccer moms and disco dads all across the world.
-- Dan
5,691,898 November 25, 1997 Safe and low cost computer peripherals with force feedback for consumer applications Abstract A method and apparatus for providing safe and low-cost force feedback peripherals for consumer applications. A device microprocessor local to an interface device is coupled to the host by a first interface bus. The microprocessor receives host commands from the host computer on the first interface bus, such as an RS-232 interface, and commands an actuator to apply a force to a user object, such as a joystick, in response to host commands. A sensor detects positions of the user object and outputs signals to the host on a second interface bus, such as a PC game port bus, separate from the first bus. In a "recoil" embodiment, a user initiates force feedback by pressing a button on the joystick, which sends an activation signal to the actuator. In other recoil embodiments, the host computer can transmit one or more enable signals and/or activation signals to the actuator to enable or command forces. A safety switch of the present invention disables the actuator when the interface device is not in use and enables the actuator when an amount of weight over a predetermined amount is placed on the joystick created by a user grasping the joystick. A circuit of the present invention includes a capacitor for storing power provided by an input signal and supplied to the actuator when forces are to be output.
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What's so stupid about this? If they were the first to come up with the idea, then Microsoft or Sony shouldn't be allowed to take their idea without paying for it.
The problem is everyone on slashdot is so conditioned to react negatively to any patent claim that they'll jump to the attack, even when it's unwarranted.
This is exactly what the patent office was created for.
the actual story as posted on the irish times is here:
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2002/
Its a syndicated story, the 'PA' at the bottom is for the Press Association a Uk news service.
I supect the 'breaking news' section is an entirely automated newsfeed, which would explain why the Irish Times had it posted at 6 in the morning (GMT, their local time).
As early as the 1950's military aircraft were using force feedback so the pilots could "feel" the plane. Fly by wire was just not intuitive without the feedback part. The first plane that I know used this was the Avro Arrow.
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From what I hear, here across the pond, Ireland is the silicon valley of Europe.
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Everyone knows the first known version of forced feedback is the Vulcan mind meld!
"Give me your thoughts! GIVE ME YOUR THOUGHTS!!!"
I suspect that Lockheed probably has prior art, however. Force feedback is fairly standard in fly by wire military aircraft.
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Just about everything that makes up your computer IS patented; the processor, the motherboard, even the case may be patented.
How would we be stuffed? Can you find a single appliance in your house that isn't patented? Did that prevent their adoption?
"For some obscure reason, this was first reported in the Irish Times today.""
Why, oh why, doesn't Slashdot post my submitions? Europe has been buzzing with this and other patent cases involving Microsoft. Microsoft recently failed to pay the measly $600,000 to the poor french couple who sold everything they have to fight for thier rights against Microsoft. They won! But Slahsdot doesn't report these things when I, a long time and loyal reader, submit.
It's the Softimage case morons.
There's usually a "no refunds if patent invalidated" clause in the licensing agreement.
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Go to an antique arcade (here's one) and look around a bit. There's machines that use electrical stimulation (low-voltage applied across the handles) and machines that use mechanical feedback (vibration, pulling, pushing). Many of these machines date from the 19th century.
There's nothing *new* about this at all.
Get off my lawn.
Or maybe I don't understand patents, but this could just be them hoping to get a little kick back from a few big companies.
If they were the first to come up with the idea, then Microsoft or Sony shouldn't be allowed to take their idea without paying for it.
Yes, but there are two points here:
1) They were NOT the first to come up with this. Loads of arcade games for instance have been using forced-feedback for many, many years.
2) This patent is far too broad, and should have never been granted. How can you patent the concept of vibration?! I could see if they patented a certain type of motor that produced a specific form of vibration, and Sony & MS stole the plans, but they are suing because their controllers vibrate. As much as I dislike Sony & MS, this lawsuit is BS.
I do wonder though. If Immersion wins, can the child in this story sue them instead of Sony??
You have a link for that French story? Sounds interesting...
Apparently they pick submissions pretty much at random. And despite their complaining that they have to sift through hundreds of stories a day, they seem to reject mine a few minutes after I submit them.
its that they are issuing bad patents due to bad laws and bad examiners and bad budgeting for the patent office. Reduce the life to 5 years from issue, and start denying software and business process patents as a default action. Another idea would be to post all patent applications to the internet for comment for 180 days before approval. Prior art would show up in a hurry for things like the BT patent and probably this one as well.
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I really don't Immersion is to blame on this one. If the patent office was stupid enough to award the Patent to them without checking for prior art, than it's still something that Microsoft and Sony are bound to recognize.
I remember when the Dual Shock Controller first came out for the PSX and how I was sure to buy one quick because everything I read pointed to a quick removal from the market for a patent infringement.
To Immersion's Defense, they did try to work with MS and Sony to work out a licensing agreement for the technology. I can't imagine that their asking price was that unreasonable seeing as though I had to pay $35 for a PS2 Dual Shock and $40 for the XBox controller.
[From the Article]
Immersion has expanded its licensees into the gaming console market with partners such as MadCatz, Saitek and others
This would indicate to me that other vendors have licensed Immersion's Technology. They sell their products a substantially cheaper price and in many cases are not an inferior product. I find it hard to believe that Sony and MS could not afford to pay this.
This is another case in which the Patent Office has screwed up again. If, as many of these other posts indicate there was prior art to the Force Feedback, then the Patent Office is to blame for awarding this in the first place. Immersion is simply excersing a right they have as patent holder--they are not to blame in this.
My guess is that they filed this suit to drum up publicity for their technology; if you think of every hit against their webpage as a targeted advertisement striking a potential techie customer (slashdotters, no less! Raise your hand if you've bought something stupid in the last year), well, it becomes very cost effective.
Not (Paranoid -> Not (After You))
The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
What if Immersion wins this court case and receives full recognition for holding this patent? Does that mean all the kids who played their PS2's and Xboxes too long will be able to sue them for the damage to their wrists as well?
Why bother.
That's why I prefaced my comment with an "if they were the first ones". The posters here seem to be criticizing the idea of patenting this kind of device, which I think is a little silly. This is absolutely nothing like BT's attempt to patent hyperlinks, and there's no basis for drawing an analogy. If there's prior art that's an entirely different criticism.
2) This patent is far too broad, and should have never been granted. How can you patent the concept of vibration?! I could see if they patented a certain type of motor that produced a specific form of vibration, and Sony & MS stole the plans, but they are suing because their controllers vibrate. As much as I dislike Sony & MS, this lawsuit is BS.
It's actually a very precisely worded patent: Doesn't sound vague to me.
No, the patent wouldn't be for the specific method - this is the difference between good patent agents and poor ones.
In UK patents (US ones differ from this) there will be multiple claims for the invention, with claim 1 being the one which is the basic invention, and subsequent claims being addenda to this claim. So, for example, in this case claim 1 might be "A mechanism for transmitting a vibrating sensation to a games user", and claim 2 might be "A mechanism as in claim 1 where the sensation is created by rotating an eccentrically mounted mass" etc.
So often a patent will be filed (and later granted) with a single main claim, and literally dozens of further claims to narrow the thing down - this is done to stop somebody else patenting the more specific version, and essentially locking you out from your own invention.
Note that US patents are different in that there *may* be multiple fundamental claims in a single patent - as in the BT hyperlink patent we were discussing earlier.
Dunstan
The last scintilla of doubt just rode out of town
How could they hold a patent on thing that has been used for decades in military air simulators, and for at least 15 years in arcade machines?
Additionaly, it was my understanding that X-Box and PS1/2 are using 'vibrating' technology, as opposed to 'force feedback' technology. It would make sense if M$ is sued because of their joysticks, but suing them for 'vibrator'? What's next - sex shops will go out of business because of patent infrigement?
No offense to you guys who claim that "Immersion spends tons of time and money" on developing the science for the patents, but the patents simply don't go past the point of "concept".... There's a patent there, #5,844,392 , that is NOTHING MORE than a blatant rip-off of the VR database browser from 1994's movie Disclosure (which is itself based on the Michael Crichton book, but I doubt these guys read it.... they were probably too busy inventing the concept of a network of computers conneccted to each other and spanning the world).
I looked at their site and they list at least 117 distinct patents. Does anyone know exactly which are in dispute?
...can be claimed by the US military and/or it's contractors since aircraft have been using force feedback systems since WWII, and their useage of Multifunction Tactile Manipulatable Controls and Velocity Controller with Force Feedback Stiffness Controls have been in use since the space programs Apollo, the X-15, and in production since the F-15.
I don't know the names of specific games, but I swear as a kid there used to be all sorts of games at the arcades with this tech. Mostly I remember driving games that you sit in where the seat vibrates when you crash and such? Anybody else know more about this than I do, or am I dreaming?
Unix is user friendly, it's just selective about who its friends are.
Congratulations, you were just modded by an editor! There was no way that two reader-moderators just decided to mod you offtopic twice like that for no reason, without modding the similarly offtopic parent down. I watched as you went from 2 to 0 in a couple seconds. Looks like the fuckwad editors can't take criticism.
Woo, what do I win?
Let me guess, another 2 mods down!
Could someone summarize what Immersion's patent really covers?
Prior use of force feedback in computer control systems goes back at least 35 years. In the 1970s, CERN developed a control system for a synchrotron which used it. The operator could control many currents and voltages using a small number of knobs (which you turned like volume controls). First you had to tell the computer to assign a knob to the desired quantity to be controlled, then you twiddled the knob.
Where the force feedback came in, was that the control system made the knob "stiffer" to turn if you were using it to control a large amount of current (hundreds of amperes) than if you were using it to control tiny currents (milliamperes). This was found to reduce the likelihood of damaging blunders.
for more details see here.
Or just use google. Like normal people do.
Whens it going to end? Capitalism is fine, but too much of anything is bad. When will people figure out, too much capitalism, too much competition, and not enough sharing is bad? Yes moderate competition fuels innovation, too much competition however makes the enviornment so competitive that no one can innovate.
Imagine the innovation and the new technologies we'd have, if third world countries had access to all the information in the world, and any kid rich or poor could be the next einstien or bill gates, any living person, any of the 6 billion people could come out with an idea, which changes the world and shares the idea for free.
So now who are we (Slashdot) gonna support in this issue? A patent which is always bad (EVIL! EVIL!) or are we going to side with Microsoft's right to innovate, as expressed (indirectly) by the quote above? Is it possible that all pantents aren't bad? Or is it possible that not everything Microsoft does is bad? Hmm.....
Whatever the merits of this case, I will enjoy M$'s beating. The case is either a valid use of patent law or a spurious attempt to gain a franchise on a general idea. If it's the first, M$ deserves to be beat. If it's the second, M$ deserves to be beat by the laws they helped innovate.
Someone was good enough to post one of the patents involved. It looks fairly specific. It specifies energy storage by a capacitor, and microprocesor control in the handset. Hmmm, a microprocessor for a specific task and a capacitor for energy storage, neither is too new or unique individually. Specifying them together for a determined purpose starts to look like a valid invention. Any invention can be broken down into a combination of general parts that anyone might look at and call obvious. Think of a piece of aluminum sheet, made ridgid by stamping holes and forming the edges, rivited above another sheet which has been formed to recieve it and scored near one end of it. The first sheet when raised by the long end applies pressure to the second sheet that causes it to shear around 90% of the scored shape and bend at the unsheared portion. Yes, that is a pop top. Nothing new about any of the pieces, a leaver, formed sheets, scores. Together, however, they make a new machine that was not obvious to people who have been working metals for six thousand years.
Then again, it might just be stupid to say that it's unique because the microprocessor and energy storage is in your hand not in the box. If it is possible to abuse the law like that, MicroSoft's contribution has been large. Those that live by the sword, die by the sword. It's even more satisfying to see one of the great sword makers and wielders stuck. Eat you innovation, Microshit.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Hey..the same comparison could be used with Linux and Windows. If that is the case, all small companies should give up now because it's "suicide" to compete with someone large.
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According to the article, BMW is one of the company that has licensed their technology. Maybe others have also.
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Patents are important especially in a capitalist society. Without patents, companies would have no incentive to invest in R&D. Let's just say that you are a company and have just spent $10 million in research and you can't patent your idea, your competitor has a significant advantage in that they can duplicate your idea with the only cost being manufacturing.
I don't think this is as frivolous as a business model patent (like the ones Amazon have). There is a product and a technology behind it. It's not just an idea.
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"I'm not Conceited...I'm just a realist..."
Many years ago this was a thriving, happy planet - people, cities, shops, a normal world. Except that on the high streets of these cities there were slightly more law firms than one might have thought necessary. And slowly, insidiously, the number of the law firms were increasing. It's a well-known economic phenomenon but tragic to see it in operation, for the more law firms there were, the more lawsuits they had to make and the worse and more unrealistic they became. And the worse they were to defend against, the more people had to pay to keep themselves in business, and the more the law firms proliferated, until the whole economy of the place passed what I believe is termed the Lawsuit Event Horizon, and it became no longer economically possible to do anything other than make lawsuits. Result - collapse, ruin and famine. Most of the population died out. Those few who had the right kind of genetic instability mutated into birds who cursed their feet, cursed the ground and vowed that no one should walk on it again.
Paraphrased from "Restaurant at the End of the Universe" by Douglas Adams - originally not about Earth but about shoe shops on Frogstar B.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
In the original radio series, that was about shoe shops, not lawsuits.
Sega's Out Run had force feedback in 1986. More importantly, there seems to be a paper by a J. Batter from IFIP 1971 called "GROPE-I: A computer display to the sense of feel." It is referenced on a UNC force feedback research page as well as by a 1985 SIGGRAPH article (paid ACM membership required). This is all well before the Feb., 1990 filing date of Immersion's earliest relevant patent.
The irony is that if J. Batter had filed a patent in 1971, it would have expired before Immersion's patent was filed!
For some obscure reason, this was first reported in the Irish Times today.
I couldn't find any references to potatoes OR alcohol. Why are the Irish interested?
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Then we wouldn't have had all the problems with the GIF format. UNISYS waited over 10 years for that one to build.
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