GNOME 2.0 Beta

Gnome or KDE? by ciryon · 2002-02-21 08:12 · Score: 1, Interesting

This is nice news. I am running KDE now and I believe that KDE 3.0 will be the ultimate *nix desktop. But perhaps this Gnome beta can prove me wrong.

The anti aliased fonts, is that the gtk hack that came some months ago? It looked really ugly. :-P

Ciryon

Re:Gnome or KDE? by AaronMB · 2002-02-21 08:15 · Score: 1

No, its not the gtk hack. GLib 2.0 supports full anti-alias support.
Re:Gnome or KDE? by GenCuster · 2002-02-21 08:20 · Score: 1

No the anti aliased fonts are part of gtk2. They look great.

--
"The poet presents his thoughts festively, on the carriage of rhythm; usually because they could not walk" Nietzsche
Re:Gnome or KDE? by st.+augustine · 2002-02-21 08:20 · Score: 5, Informative

The anti aliased fonts, is that the gtk hack that came some months ago? It looked really ugly. :-P

No, it's the proper, internationalized anti-aliasing that's been in the works for a while. For a good list of all the user-visible changes in Gnome 2, check out Havoc Pennington's "What's New in Gnome 2" page.

--

-- Some things are to be believed, though not susceptible to rational proof.
Re:Gnome or KDE? by st.+augustine · 2002-02-21 08:23 · Score: 2

The anti aliased fonts, is that the gtk hack that came some months ago? It looked really ugly. :-P
Oops - forgot the screenshot.

--

-- Some things are to be believed, though not susceptible to rational proof.
Re:Gnome or KDE? by mrcparker · 2002-02-21 08:38 · Score: 3, Interesting

This
screenshot and this can be so cool if implemeted correctly.

Any other screenshots along this line?
Re:Gnome or KDE? by MaxVlast · 2002-02-21 08:49 · Score: 2, Insightful

Boy that looks like Windows with different colors. Not trying to be a troll here, but what's the point of striving harder and harder to make Linux interfaces as close to Windows as possible? Sure, people say the secretary factor, but either a) the secretary will not be a linux user, or b) people underestimate the ability of others to do something new.

To me, it seems more confusing to have something that works and looks somewhat like Windows, but not quite than something that is well-designed and faithful to itself.

But, I'll probably be modded into oblivion, so what's the point?

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Re:Gnome or KDE? by Geekboy(Wizard) · 2002-02-21 09:30 · Score: 1

not to be a troll here, but windows keeps trying to look like the mac, and see what it has done for windows.
Re:Gnome or KDE? by MaxVlast · 2002-02-21 09:34 · Score: 1

Exactly. Windows keeps getting worse. It's a result of not having coherent ideas and the conviction and assuredness to adhere to those convictions. I don't like BeOS, but it has that going for it. The Mac has that going for it. I don't like the Amiga, but it had it, as well. NEXTSTEP had it in spades.

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Re:Gnome or KDE? by crivens · 2002-02-21 09:39 · Score: 1

I agree to a certain extent, but I think that if an aim is to pull Windows users to Linux, then for a certain portion of that group you need to provide a familiar environment.
Re:Gnome or KDE? by Karn · 2002-02-21 09:48 · Score: 1

I can't believe you are saying Windows is actually getting worse.. I think 99% of the population will tell you that Windows has gotten MUCH better in terms of UI, security, and stability. It's still not UNIX, but it's a hell of alot better than Windows 3.1.

--

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Re:Gnome or KDE? by rgmoore · 2002-02-21 10:07 · Score: 4, Insightful

Reducing the barrier to entry is a big potential advantage, and I think that you're wrong to underestimate it. Every user interface difference between what people are using now and what you want them to switch to is one possible reason for them not to switch. Integrate over every difference, and you wind up with a big barrier to changing. Of course every beneficial difference is one reason for people to make the switch, so you shouldn't be afraid of making improvements. But there are a lot of cosmetic things that probably should be kept the same just because people expect them to be that way.
The net result is that the "start button" is going to be in the lower left corner, new icons are going to be placed starting in the upper left, etc. There's no fundamental reason that those things have to be in those places, but people are used to them being there from using Windows, so they will automatically look for them there. If that makes it easier for a Windows user to switch desktops, it's more than enough justification for making that the default behavior. And yes, I do realize that the menu bar in Windows can be moved around; the fact that it's still on the bottom with the start menu at the far left on essentially every Windows desktop is simply proof of how conservative most users are.

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Re:Gnome or KDE? by MaxVlast · 2002-02-21 10:09 · Score: 1

Well, one of my points was "sorta like" is worse than different. I know I find that I am most frustrated with things that only work a little bit like the things that they're supposed to look or work like.

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Re:Gnome or KDE? by MaxVlast · 2002-02-21 10:14 · Score: 1

Well, I didn't consider Win 3.1. That doesn't even count on my scale.

Regarding UI, I think Windows is a mess, always has been a mess, and always will be a mess. It is ugly, it doesn't work properly, there are numerous aspects fundamental to the functioning of the UI that are purely annoying (like the tendency to steal keyboard focus and throw up windows over the current active portion of the screen.)

Win2k is miserable. Everyone keeps going on about how good it is, but I just don't see it. I set up a Win2k machine for Kazaa and to play some games, and it is hardly stable. The explorer is a piece of crap. It barely works! When I'm using it for file management, none of my file ordering or icon location choices are retained, it's flimsy. I can't tell you how many times it has just stopped working, requiring that I ctrl-alt-delete the explorer (which also kills my web sessions.) I just don't see what everybody's so excited about. It simply sub-par, and it annoys me that people are excited by all of the new features and capabilities when the core is completely rotten.

And that's what Linux folks are trying to get? File managers that are web browsers? The god-awful abomination of a start menu? If that's what you want, you can keep it.

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Re:Gnome or KDE? by MaxVlast · 2002-02-21 10:29 · Score: 2

I agree that keeping the barriers to entry low are important. I think that installation and cooperation are more dramatic barriers to entry than the start button. If a system has a sensible UI, even if it's different, people are going to have a better time than a half-bred UI that serves many masters and pleases none. My windows-using friend borrowed my PowerBook running Mac OS X. He used it for a while, and liked it. He thought some things were strange, he had to ask me a few questions about it, but he didn't reject it for lack of a start menu. Most people aren't that stupid. And the people who are that stupid typically are taught what they need to know by others, they don't acquire that knowledge on their own. So it doesn't much matter. My point is that different isn't necessarily scary (it can be, but it isn't by definition) and I'd much rather see something that was (gasp) original, creative, different, and effective, rather than the derivative drivel that has characterized so much of what we buy.

The start menu is dumb. The Windows start menu is dumb but we're stuck with it. The start menus in Linux are even dumber because they are so completely decoupled from what's on the system that they're utterly inconsistent across different distros and different peoples' desktops that I don't consider them to be a factor. If nothing, I consider them to be a confounding factor.

Multiple desktops are a great idea. Multiple desktops confuse more people than any other UI feature I have ever seen. By your reasoning, they should be left out.

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Re:Gnome or KDE? by Flower · 2002-02-21 10:44 · Score: 2

What's new and more importantly what's new that is useful?

I just went and checked out some screenshots for Enlightment and WindowMaker. The default screen for E 0.16 looks completely unintuitive. There is obviously a window showing a desktop in the lower left but I have no clue what the window below it does and the window in the lower right is anybody's guess. After years of using Windows I had an easier time of figuring out the Mac and CDE interfaces.

Now let's look at 0.17 CVS screenshot. Without being able to do some test clicking, it looks like a varient of the traditional taskbar. Go here and there is very little to distinguish it from any other WIMP interface.

WindowMaker is different and I used to use it all the time under linux. The Dock is pretty nice. However, it is still just another WIMP interface.

The stuff that really differentiates&lt sp? &gt Gnome, E, Windowmaker and the rest from Windows is the ability to do multiple desktops, the abilty to roll-up windows and the like.

A screenshot is only going to tell you so much.

--
I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
Re:Gnome or KDE? by crivens · 2002-02-21 10:47 · Score: 1

I never thought that Enlightenment was a real product; I thought it was a joke! No seriously! When I ran it for the first time, I thought "you have to be kidding! You expect people to use this?". Actually I thought it more an experiment than a joke, but I laughed regardless.
Re:Gnome or KDE? by robbkidd · 2002-02-21 11:04 · Score: 1

Boy that looks like Windows with different colors. Not trying to be a troll here, but what's the point of striving harder and harder to make Linux interfaces as close to Windows as possible?

GNOME 'n' KDE panels and window manager themes are much more configurable than the Windows taskbar and locked in windowing interface. Dockable applets for one, that look much better when included in a side panel than do toolbars in taskbars moved to the side.

It comes down to configurability. A Windows user, an Apple user and a Solaris/CDE user can log in to their individual GNOME sessions and make their environment something comfortable to them. And the really wackball users can go wild with minimalist or really complex panel arrangements. All done with the same set of installed libraries and apps. Wonderful if you're running remote X workstations or thin clients.
Re:Gnome or KDE? by Afrosheen · 2002-02-21 12:49 · Score: 2

Maybe I'm trolling here, but I don't see a HUGE start button, a confusing new windows menu, craploads of processor-consuming eye candy and transparencies UI improvements. Even my friend, a die-hard Windows user, turned all the extraneous BS off in XP. XP works best when it's acting (looking) like win98.

"It's still not UNIX, but it's a hell of alot better than Windows 3.1"

I can name about 20 desktops/wm's that are better than win3.1. At least it had speed and stability in it's favor.

With all the new guis, the people working on them should focus on cohesiveness and consistency of action. Don't do this at the expensive of configurability. The thing that Apple has always had in their corner is the Platinum spec. If you're coding for Apple, your program has to adhere to their UI standard. For the most part KDE apps act this way, can't really judge Gnome since I have bad luck with it.
Re:Gnome or KDE? by GrenDel+Fuego · 2002-02-21 16:53 · Score: 1

The transparencies here are cool, but god is that background awful.

Heh.
Re:Gnome or KDE? by Shelled · 2002-02-21 18:04 · Score: 2, Insightful

What you say is true, but emulating Windows is also a trap. It's hard to argue that the Windows model is an ideal way of managing the desktop, no matter what MS research on Windows users says. (Have they ever tested the Win desktop on Mac users?). A good example is the one you mentioned, forcing the wrist to the lower left of the screen every time a user wants to start an app. Where's the logic in that? Or in the adherence to a single desktop? These are configurations MS is forced to maintain because their market base became accustomed to it in '95.
It's also the reason MS can't make wholesale improvements. Their users would rebel over anything too new, no matter how much better it works. Should window managers then follow the same path, lock into a single desktop model for short term gain and foresake long term development potential. This Windowmaker/FVWM user votes no.
Re:Gnome or KDE? by FooBarWidget · 2002-02-22 03:37 · Score: 1

Why bother? It's not about GNOME against KDE, or KDE against GNOME.
It's together against Windows.

They sure release often by Penrod+Pooch · 2002-02-21 08:14 · Score: 1

So, those of you that has tried it. Is it reasonably stable or are they rushing it to fight KDE?

Re:They sure release often by luge · 2002-02-21 08:34 · Score: 2

Well, from where I stand, it looks reasonably stable. There are very few bugs being filed against it right now, and I use it every day with very few problems [well, nautilus is crashy as all get out, but otherwise everything seems to work fairly well.]

Caveat: like I say, pretty few bugs are getting filed but it's hard to say if that is because of the number of people using it or the number of actual bugs. We'll know better after the beta.

--
IAAL,BIANLY
Re:They sure release often by bartok · 2002-02-21 11:29 · Score: 2, Informative

"Is it reasonably stable or are they rushing it to fight KDE?"

Realeasing a beta can hardly be described as rushing software out. Besides, people who prefer KDE won't switch to GNOME just because some new version of it comes out before a new version of KDE. This is also true for people who prefer GNOME.

This is really great by ColGraff · 2002-02-21 08:15 · Score: 3, Interesting

I've always thought that GNOME looked nicer than the windows or mac desktops (almost as nice as BeOS), and it's really cool to see that it's getting even prettier. To anyone who reads this who works on GNOME: thank you very much for working on this, and even more thanks for releasing it under the GPL.

It's people like the ones who work on GNOME who are going to make Linux into the desktop OS it has the potential to be.

--
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Re:This is really great by matman · 2002-02-21 11:25 · Score: 2

Do you mean that the default theme is ass-ugly? It's easy to switch themes.
Re:This is really great by stankyho · 2002-02-21 13:42 · Score: 1

Customization is whats its all about. Gnome can look very nice. With the right WM.

http://reames.org/images/gnome-e.jpg

--

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Accessibility: suddenly it's a priority... by gmkeegan · 2002-02-21 08:16 · Score: 5, Interesting

new accessibility features for disabled users

Having just broken both my wrists 2 weeks ago while snowboarding (right in 3 places, left in 2) this is suddenly of great interest. (took 10 minutes just to type this in :(

Re:Accessibility: suddenly it's a priority... by JanneM · 2002-02-21 08:20 · Score: 2, Funny

And they claim doing sports is good for you...

/Janne

--
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
Re:Accessibility: suddenly it's a priority... by l0wland · 2002-02-21 08:24 · Score: 5, Funny

There's 6 minutes between the original posting and your reply. How in earth's name did you do that in 10 minutes ?

:-)

--

"Honey, I feel a certain distance between us..." "Really? A 31ms ping ain't that bad..."
Re:Accessibility: suddenly it's a priority... by Viking+Coder · 2002-02-21 08:25 · Score: 3, Informative

There have been previous slashdot articles on unique keyboards. I might investigate a Twiddler from HandKey corporation if I were you (if you can use your fingers freely, but you can't flex at the wrist).

Also, there was a reference to a keyboard that was two pucks that each moved in one of eight direction (64-possibilities) that you could use without fingers! If you can't flex fingers or your wrists, this keyboard might work for you, as it works largely on shoulder and elbow movements.

I'm trying to figure out what having broken wrists would mean. Do you have full use of your fingers, but you can't flex at your wrists? Do you just get to type with a couple fingers? How are you typing?

Also (of course), you could investigate voice recognition systems. Dragon Naturally Speaking (I think that's what it's called) has an entry-level system for about $100.

If any of these sound interesting to you, and you want help digging up further information on them, feel free to ask me. Just tell me which ones to look into for you.

--
Education is the silver bullet.
Re:Accessibility: suddenly it's a priority... by segfaultdot · 2002-02-21 08:37 · Score: 1

You might try the bat keyboard. I've not tried it myself, but i've heard positive reviews of it. It's an eight button chording keyboard similar to the twiddler, but i'ts a more stable surface. Not to cheap at 199USD, but it might help you out.
Re:Accessibility: suddenly it's a priority... by Pyrosz · 2002-02-21 08:38 · Score: 1

Not to mention.. is it 10 minutes to the point of saying it has been 10 minutes to type the first part or is it 10 minutes to type in its been 10 minutes? :)

--

An optimist believes we live in the best world possible; a pessimist fears this is true.
Re:Accessibility: suddenly it's a priority... by SeanAhern · 2002-02-21 09:20 · Score: 1

It's an obvious troll, but I'll bite.

If that's "proof" of what a "stupid and dangerous" sport Snowboarding is...

Then there's hordes of evidence that pretty much every activity that we engage in on a day-to-day basis is stupid and dangerous.

Driving cars, riding public transportation, breathing air around anything resembling civilization, eating food, getting excited (better not have sex!), expressing opinions, typing on your computer, ......
Re:Accessibility: suddenly it's a priority... by captredballs · 2002-02-21 09:37 · Score: 1

If you think thats bad, I read an article the other day that said sleeping more than 8 hours a night made your life shorter! And all this time I've been told that I need at least 8 1/2!

Maybe its a happier vs. longer type of thing. I like bacon and if I die a year or two earlier, I'll have it once a week. That's moderation, eh?

--

I suppose I'm not too threatening, presently, but wait till I start Nautilus
Re:Accessibility: suddenly it's a priority... by gmkeegan · 2002-02-21 09:38 · Score: 1

I have about 80% use of fingers on left hand, 15-20% on right. This encompasses flexibility, mobility and strength (grip...) No flexibility on either wrist. I've switched to a trackball from optical mouse, but something like a Twiddler sounds great. My left hand/arm is doing all of the typing and tires from being elevated over the keyboard instead of resting on the wrist-rest like it has for years :)

Thanks for the pointer. I'll try to post a followup/eval.
Re:Accessibility: suddenly it's a priority... by ethereal · 2002-02-21 10:03 · Score: 1

...and that's the real reason the IOC doesn't like it when you 'boarders get all doped up, don't ya know :)

--
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Re:Accessibility: suddenly it's a priority... by Cow4263 · 2002-02-21 10:37 · Score: 1

ZZZ has a new keyboard like everyother week.
Re:Accessibility: suddenly it's a priority... by Black+Parrot · 2002-02-21 11:00 · Score: 1

> > > new accessibility features for disabled users

> > Having just broken both my wrists 2 weeks ago while snowboarding (right in 3 places, left in 2) this is suddenly of great interest. (took 10 minutes just to type this in :(

> There's 6 minutes between the original posting and your reply. How in earth's name did you do that in 10 minutes ?

It also has new accessibility features for psychics.

--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Re:Accessibility: suddenly it's a priority... by Anonymous Coward · 2002-02-21 18:25 · Score: 2, Funny

When you're forced to type with your penis, times seems to move quicker.

could a port to windows be done? by the_2nd_coming · 2002-02-21 08:19 · Score: 1

I am not talking a Cygwin thing, I am talkina an actual shell replacment.

I think it woul dbe realy cool it it could be done. Ximian for everyone!!!!!

--

I am the Alpha and the Omega-3

Re:could a port to windows be done? by Penrod+Pooch · 2002-02-21 08:22 · Score: 1

Why? Maybe I'm daft, but I don't see the point.
Re:could a port to windows be done? by pe1rxq · 2002-02-21 08:22 · Score: 4, Funny

Sure, its called linux. It replaces windows' shell completly!

Jeroen

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Re:could a port to windows be done? by the_2nd_coming · 2002-02-21 08:24 · Score: 1

for a consistent UI throughout an office with mixed OSs.

many offices still use Windows (if you had not noticed) so how cool would it be tohave your gnome and eat windows too?

--

I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Re:could a port to windows be done? by Anonymous Coward · 2002-02-21 08:32 · Score: 1, Informative

GTK+ 2.0 is supposedly going to run on Windows as seamlessly as it does on X, but you have to remember that a lot of GNOME and GNOME apps (ill-behavedly) use Xlib calls, making them unportable.
Re:could a port to windows be done? by Penrod+Pooch · 2002-02-21 08:33 · Score: 1

Hmm, I'm not a very experienced Windows user, but as far as I can tell Gnome and the Windows UI work pretty similar, even if they don't look the same. I also doubt that anyone but an extremly small minority would go through the trouble of changing the Window UI for something else. I think it would be better to spend the limited development resources to make Gnome better for *nix platforms.
Re:could a port to windows be done? by technomancerX · 2002-02-21 08:45 · Score: 2

"I also doubt that anyone but an extremly small minority would go through the trouble of changing the Window UI for something else."
Actually, you're mistaken. There's a fairly sizable Windows shell replacement community. In fact, there's at least one company, Stradock, that makes their living at it. For a ton of links to replacement shell sites check out Desktopian.
I do agree that it's not something the core Gnome team should be thinking about, though.

--
.technomancer

GNOME 2.0 Release Schedule by bob@dB.org · 2002-02-21 08:21 · Score: 3, Informative

from http://developer.gnome.org/dotplan/schedule/

January 28 PACKAGES DUE - Gnome 2.0 Desktop Alpha 2
January 30 RELEASE - Gnome 2.0 Desktop Alpha 2
February 11 UI FREEZE - no more UI changes w/o approval of release team (excludes 1.4 feature porting)
February 11 PACKAGES DUE - Gnome 2.0 Desktop Beta
February 13 Porting FREEZE - porting complete as per GNOME 2.0 Porting Guide
February 13 RELEASE - Gnome 2.0 Desktop Beta
February 18 String FREEZE - no more localizable string changes w/o approval of release team
March 4 PACKAGES DUE - Gnome 2.0 Desktop Release Candidate 1
March 6 DEEP FREEZE - release team approved fixes only from now to final
March 6 RELEASE - Gnome 2.0 Desktop Release Candidate 1
March 27 PACKAGES DUE - Gnome 2.0 Desktop Final
March 29 RELEASE - Gnome 2.0 Desktop Final

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Re:GNOME 2.0 Release Schedule by HeUnique · 2002-02-21 09:01 · Score: 2

hmm...

1 beta, 1 release candidate, and then - final version...

Am I the only one to think this schedule is stupid? GNOME 2.0 is a major revision with an entirely new libraries - and yet - 2 releases before final? didn't someone actually think that people need more time to find the bugs???

Or does the GNOME people want to have the same honour as Nautilus (the most unexpensive piece of application I ever tested)?

--
Hetz (Heunique)

Eye Candy by Ween · 2002-02-21 08:21 · Score: 1

Does anyone have a url where I can preview some screenshots of the new gnome interface?

--

Tis better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt --Abraham Lincoln

Re:Eye Candy by Penrod+Pooch · 2002-02-21 08:24 · Score: 2, Informative

try here
Re:Eye Candy by Ween · 2002-02-21 08:28 · Score: 1

to answer my own question and for all those who want to see as well as I, the url is:

http://developer.gnome.org/dotplan/ (developer.gnome.com)

--

Tis better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt --Abraham Lincoln

Some juicy screenshots by segfaultdot · 2002-02-21 08:23 · Score: 5, Informative

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Re:Some juicy screenshots by MicroBerto · 2002-02-21 09:34 · Score: 2

Bahhh!... the recursion is hurting my brain!

--
Berto
Re:Some juicy screenshots by BlowCat · 2002-02-21 12:27 · Score: 2

They are PNG:
$ wget http://developer.gnome.org/dotplan/images/magnifie r.png $ file magnifier.png magnifier.png: PNG image data, 1400 x 1050, 8-bit/color RGB, non-interlaced

.debs? by pong2015 · 2002-02-21 08:24 · Score: 1

Does anyone have any .deb's, or do I actually have to make all the packages...? = )
ie: is there any way I can just toss a line into my sources.list?

Re:.debs? by mvdwege · 2002-02-21 10:40 · Score: 1

Yup.

They're already in the main Debian archives. You have to be daring enough to run unstable though.
Mart

--
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
Re:.debs? by mountain_penguin · 2002-02-21 11:36 · Score: 1

hmm well imm running sid here and
get this :
apt-cache search gnome2
bonobo-config - The Bonobo Configuration System for GNOME2
gconf2 - GNOME configuration database system. (daemon and tools, for GNOME2)
gnome-common - provides scripts and macros for gnome and gnome2 development
libbonobo-config-dev - The Bonobo Configuration System for GNOME2 -- development
files
libbonobo-config0 - The Bonobo Configuration System for GNOME2 -- shared library
libbonoboui2-0 - The Bonobo UI library
libbonoboui2-common - The Bonobo UI library -- common files
libbonoboui2-dev - The Bonobo UI library - development files
libeel2-1 - Eazel Extensions Library (for GNOME2)
libeel2-data - Eazel Extensions Library - data files (for GNOME2)
libeel2-dev - Eazel Extensions Library - development files (GNOME2)
libgconf2-4 - GNOME configuration database system libraries (for GNOME2)
libgconf2-dev - GNOME configuration database system development files. (for GNOM
E2)
libgdk-pixbuf-gnome2 - The GNOME Canvas pixbuf library
libgnome2-0 - The Gnome 2 library - runtime files.
libgnome2-dev - The Gnome 2 library - development files.
libgnomevfs2-0 - The GNOME virtual file-system libraries (for GNOME2)
libgnomevfs2-common - The GNOME virtual file-system library common files (for GN
OME2)
libgnomevfs2-dev - The GNOME virtual file-system development files (for GNOME2)
libgtkhtml2-0 - HTML rendering/editing library - runtime files. (for GNOME2)
libgtkhtml2-dev - HTML rendering/editing library - development files. for (GNOME
2)
librsvg2-1 - SAX-based renderer library for SVG files. (for GNOME2)
librsvg2-dev - SAX-based renderer library for SVG files.(development files)
which is just the libs no aps build with it :( am i missing something or is it going to arrive in the next few days?
Re:.debs? by mvdwege · 2002-02-21 20:00 · Score: 2

Oops. You're right. I am so used to Gnome mostly being a collection of libraries, that I totally forgot to check for the availability of the desktop software itself.
Mart

--
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?

mirrors by I+Want+GNU! · 2002-02-21 08:24 · Score: 5, Informative

The main FTP site seems to be down, but at ftp://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/MIRRORS.html you can find a list of mirrors.

A few of them are:

ftp://ftp.cse.buffalo.edu/pub/Gnome
ftp://ftp.rpmfind.net/linux/gnome.org/
ftp://ftp.sourceforge.net/pub/mirrors/gnome/
ftp://ftp.twoguys.org/GNOME

Re:mirrors by I+Want+GNU! · 2002-02-21 08:27 · Score: 1

Apparantly the FTP isn't down (it just was for a second when I tried, it probably is getting flooded with requests), but it still is a bit slow at the moment.

Debian Packages? by evilned · 2002-02-21 08:26 · Score: 4, Interesting

I see tar.gz and some RPM's but no .debs. Is there someone packaging them, or will I have to wait till march when it gets out of beta for it to be put in unstable?

--

"My head hurts, My feet stink, and I dont love Jesus." -Jimmy Buffett

Re:Debian Packages? by isenguard · 2002-02-21 21:15 · Score: 1

There are debs of an earlier version of the gnome2 libs in unstable already, and they install alongside the gnome1.4 stuff without any problems.

The difficulty is that the gnome2 core apps (panel, control-center, nautilus, etc) are replacements for the gnome1.4 core apps, and so at some point users will have to upgrade to gnome2-core (I assume). In other words, while the libraries can be parallel installed, individual applications can't be (though of course you can still use old gnome1.4 apps alongside new gnome2 apps). Anyway, the upshot is that gnome2-core isn't in unstable yet, but you can get all the libs.
Re:Debian Packages? by Jebediah21 · 2002-02-22 01:15 · Score: 1

I haven't installed the new Gnome packages (lack of sleep and time) but you should be able to use Alien to change the RPMS or tarballs into a DEB. Try searching for Alien on Freshmeat.net

--

Everytime you look at porn a devil gets their horns.
Re:Debian Packages? by cananian · 2002-02-22 11:34 · Score: 2

Some newer versions of the gnome2 libs are in
http://sinfor.lcs.mit.edu/~cananian/debs, but as another reply mentioned, you'll probably have to wait a little longer for the non-library parts. If anyone wants to do the porting (probably shouldn't be very hard) I'm willing to host the debs at the address above.

You can get a gnome2 version of gnumeric from my archive, since that's what I'm working on.

--
[ /. is too noisy already -- who needs a .sig? ]

APT-get the Red Hat packages by Nailer · 2002-02-21 08:32 · Score: 5, Informative

For Red Hat users, packages of Gnome 2.0 for Red Hat 7.2 should be available within Gnomehide reasonably soon, depending on how fast Havoc Pennington updates GNOMEhide (usually within a week, judging by previous announcements).

Add the following lines to your sources.list

# Red Hat Linux Rawhide
#rpm http://apt.nixia.no redhat/rawhide/i386 cds
#rpm http://apt.nixia.no redhat/7.2/i386 gnomehide

And if you still don't have apt-get, then visit Freshrpms, download it, use it, and wonder how you ever got along without it.

PS - If any of you have the bandwidth to host a publically avaliable apt repository for Red Hat, then please post to the freshrpms mailing list and tell us all about it.

Re:APT-get the Red Hat packages by DavittJPotter · 2002-02-21 09:44 · Score: 1

OK, quick question: Can you use the apt-get RPMs on Mandrake?

--
"If there's hope, it lies in the proles..."
Re:APT-get the Red Hat packages by ZaMoose · 2002-02-21 10:06 · Score: 2

There's a source rpm here:
http://enigma.freshrpms.net/rpm.html?id=615

Or, just search RPMFind.

--
I wish I had a kryptonite cross, because then you could keep Dracula and Superman away.
Re:APT-get the Red Hat packages by DavittJPotter · 2002-02-21 10:11 · Score: 1

Thanks! Trying it out now...

--
"If there's hope, it lies in the proles..."

Re:for existing GNOME applications? by RollingThunder · 2002-02-21 08:36 · Score: 4, Insightful

It (gnome 2) just hit public beta ... why would there be a lot of people using it before it even hit beta?

GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by Glorat · 2002-02-21 08:37 · Score: 4, Interesting

I know this dicussion can start the many flame wars so let me ask this from a personal perspective

I am a relative Linux on the desktop newbie (although very comfortable deploying on servers) and still prefer the ease of use and performance of the Windows interface. One day, I installed Linux to try out and had a go at both KDE and GNOME (about a year ago) but didn't like it. Today, I sadly develop on Windows to be deployed on Linux

I found KDE took ages to start up, GNOME was slightly better but Nautilus while featureful was horribly slow. Both were rather confusing with respect to my favourite shortcut keys and mouse commands (especially clipboards and window control) although I hear KDE has a "Windows emulation" mode it wasn't convincing

So the things that are on my mind are:
- Have the environments improved a lot in the past 12 months in terms of usability and performance and startup speed?
- Is it getting much easier for the Windows user like me to get into?
- What are the main goals that GNOME are trying to accomplish over their new releases? KDE?

Otherwise, I guess I'll keep my "desktop environment" to nothing but an xterm console and only use Linux when I have to

Thanks

Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by Lumpy · 2002-02-21 08:43 · Score: 4, Informative

Download ROX filer. and then replace the Bloatware called nautilus with ROX (to replace the desktop you need to run ROX as ROX -p=default)

This one change will increase the speed of Gnome by at least 300% no you dont get the nice-n-integrated everything that Nautilus is but you also lose the one thing that makes gnome slower than tar.

--
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by WildBeast · 2002-02-21 08:46 · Score: 2

That's what I do to. And it's fine with me. I've been trying GNOME and KDE since 1998 and I haven't seen much improvement in the interface. Actually the look is still almost the same. I still won't use Linux as a desktop OS, it's a server OS.

I'm pretty happy with my setup, Windows on the dekstop and Linux on the server side is the perfect balance for me. I got the best of both worlds.
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by Glorat · 2002-02-21 08:52 · Score: 2

I will try that =P
I'm getting larger HD on my laptop so I can try Linux once again.

Just one thing. I will be using Mandrake (newbie distribution) and last time the darn package manager insists that Gnome requires Nautilus to be installed *and* Nautilus has all those hooks into Gnome :(

Suggestions always welcome
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by pthisis · 2002-02-21 08:53 · Score: 5, Funny

you also lose the one thing that makes gnome slower than tar

Actually, tar is pretty fast--it's bzip2 that makes it seem slow. Try gzip or lzop instead, or don't compress if you are storing compressed files--though maybe cpio is somewhat faster than tar.

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

Sumner

--
rage, rage against the dying of the light
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by Cro+Magnon · 2002-02-21 08:55 · Score: 1

One option is to use one of the lightweight desktops such as Xfce (www.xfce.org)

--
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by hyperstation · 2002-02-21 08:58 · Score: 1

or just be patient, since bzip2 compresses better than gzip :)
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by prog-guru · 2002-02-21 09:10 · Score: 1

FVWM 2.4 and gnome-panel for me, I try to use gtk apps when I can, but run a few QT apps too. rxvt is my file manager, this has worked pretty well for a year now.

--
chris@xanadu:~$ whatis /.
/.: nothing appropriate.
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by ahologounis · 2002-02-21 09:11 · Score: 1

I have to agree, I wish it wasn't so. I use win2k on the desktop simply because it works. Please don't flame me. I have a 750 athlon running Suse 7.3 as a desktop machine and while kde runs fine there still is something missing. I use Redhat on my servers, I have 2 and they are flawless in that capacity, but then again they get configured from the commandline. I think that Linux ,especially kde have come along way on the desktop but by no means are they truly there yet. I think one day they will be though.
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by Vintermann · 2002-02-21 09:12 · Score: 1

http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/articles/w hy_care/ and http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/That's why I'm optimistic for gnome. These people in the usabillity project, when their work really starts to show, Gnome upon GNU upon Linux will have the best user interface of all, incl. WIN & macOS.

I really have faith in them. That's why I stick with GNOME.

--
xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by Anonymous Coward · 2002-02-21 09:16 · Score: 2, Informative

I've never used KDE (I don't like the look of it - icons have too many colors...looks kind of gaudy but maybe that's configurable)

I'm a big fan of Ximian Gnome. Its much less clunky and more attractive than vanilla Gnome IMHO. I recommend it.

I also liked Windowmaker and Blackbox when I used them, they're much more lightweight than running a whole Gnome or KDE environment.
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by reaper20 · 2002-02-21 09:27 · Score: 2

Go into the Nautilus preferences and there is a checkbox - [] Use Nautilus to draw the desktop (or something similar to that, I don't remember)

Turn it off and Gnome's responsiveness/speed will greatly increase.
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by tempest303 · 2002-02-21 09:44 · Score: 2

yeah, or you could just stick to GMC. ;) It matches Rox's speed, but beats the hell out of it for features.

As it is, though, Nautilus2 for Gnome 2 is a big improvement for performance it seems. I tried some Gnome2 development snapshots last weekend and Nautilus was pretty responsive. Heck, 1.0.6 isn't bad, but it could definately use some improvement. What I like about Nautilus though is features, features, features. Lots of good stuff, like the ability to use scripts with Nautilus, and using as an SMB browser (when you get gnome-vfs-extras installed that is). And let's not forget the uber-l33t SVG icons it supports, too. :)

--
The Free desktop that Just Works
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by Lumpy · 2002-02-21 09:58 · Score: 1

WHEN will someone integrate bzip2 with tar? I would love to use the tar -xzvf foobar.tgz on bz2 files... like a tar-x2vf foobar.tbz2

dreams of making tar more friendly again....

--
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by Fizzlewhiff · 2002-02-21 10:01 · Score: 2

Nautilus seems to get slower with each release. I use gmc now as my file/desktop manager and I have been a much happier person.

I really don't understand why Nautilus needs to have so many features, ie web browsing and themes. On my installation, Red Hat 7.1, Ximian Gnome 1.4, Gnome starts, sets my background, then Nautilus starts and sets my background. I click on the slashdot link on my desktop, Nautilus starts and loads the site in its file pane and then in the left pane asks if I want to open it with Mozilla, Opera, or Galeon. Now Galeon is associated as my html default viewer. In my opinion Galeon should load the website and Nautilus should not even execute at all. Perhaps this is all resolved in 2.0. Other than Nautilus, I am very impressed with Gnome.

KDE is nice too. I used both for a while until I decided I liked one better. It's nice having more than one desktop option. What kind of influenced my switch to Gnome was Ximian's Red Carpet. I always had dependancy hell when keeping KDE up to date on Red Hat. Gnome was easy to update using Red Carpet so I eventually removed KDE.

--

'Same speed C but faster'
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by gmhowell · 2002-02-21 10:18 · Score: 2

On Debian, I think it is tar -jxvf foo.tar.bz2 and on RH, I think it is tar -Ixvf foo.tar.bz2.

Try it out.

--
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by Junta · 2002-02-21 10:32 · Score: 2

but gmc *does* have a desktop mode, duh...

That aside, anyone who would claim that gmc offers similar performance to rox needs to try both on a pentium 166 or so and then get back to me...

Feature-wise, I like ROX a hell of a lot better. Many more hooks for keybopard and shell like cpaabilities than gmc. It doesn't have as much eye-candy as Nautilus, but icons are still well done. The one thing I do kinda miss occasionally is the tree view for directory navigation, but the respnsiveness and the well done keyboard interaction make it worthwhile.

--
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by Junta · 2002-02-21 10:37 · Score: 2

It already is (for GNU tar), though not as cleanly as compress/gzip, and no where near universal. The default for modern tar builds straight from gnu.org is to use -y. Early versions of tar with bzip2 used -I, and a lot of places currently use -j, I think because of some command conflict with I. If you use, say slackware or sorcerer, you have the -y option. Now combining it with the z option might be possible for decompressing, but for compressing you really need separate options, as bzip2drastically does better for text, but for non-text data is comparable to gzip but remains dog slow..

--
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by Wolfier · 2002-02-21 10:38 · Score: 1

What's wrong with a desktop mode?
A well-designed desktop should allow you to create files on the desktop. Just my opinion.
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by unapersson · 2002-02-21 10:50 · Score: 1

Have you tried:

tar -jxvf file.tar.bz2

Works fine for me ;-)
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by Graymalkin · 2002-02-21 11:47 · Score: 2

Nautilus runs fast for me on my YDL installation on my Powerbook. I'm running Ximian as well and my PB is a Lombard 333. Nautilus takes a second or two to start up but once it is running the going is pretty smooth. The start up speed doesn't bother me much because it is as fast or faster as an Explorer window on my PC. I think Nautilus has so many features so it can be held up to Windows Explorer which has a huge featureset and is actually competitive with the modern Windows desktop rather than playing catch up with Windows 3.11. I'm not much of a theme guy but I do like the ability for a file manager to discern some context for my files and know what they are and adapt the display of them accordingly. For me it is useful to be able to scroll a directory full of pictures with thumbnails and tags telling me how big the picture is. That is how I scan through photographs when I'm looking at them after getting my film back from processing, I don't brose through a list of names hoping to remember that image10056.jpg was that really awesome shot of the Rockies I took a couple months ago. That is just me though, some people just want a flat list hold the mayo so gmc works just fine.

--
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by Junta · 2002-02-21 12:57 · Score: 2

Nothin wrong with Desktop mode, just saying gmc had it too... And actually, I kinda prefer the Desktop being treated as "special" as it is in ROX, as it can only contain links to files/locations and links themselves. Guess it is kind of a moot point in Linux, but especially in windows it is bad that the desktop can hold files. Under windows if you have roaming profiles, login must wait for all files to download to local drive (and enough local space must be free for the profile). Since the desktop is in the profile, this can make things really slow for people who just dump everything onto the desktop. I guess on Linux it becomes more of a stylistic issue since data over nfs is laoded as needed...

--
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by Wildfire+Darkstar · 2002-02-21 13:22 · Score: 1

Try "tar xjvf foobar.tar.bz2".

No, I don't understand where the "j" came from, but it gets the job done....

--
Sean Daugherty "I have walked in Eternity -- and Eternity weeps."
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by matman · 2002-02-21 15:11 · Score: 2

As a developer and network admin, Windows pales in comparison to Linux, for me, as a desktop OS. I run Windows in VMWare so that I can use MMC consoles to admin some NT domain services, but past that, I can't stand Windows. Somehow, every time I use it, it manages to piss me off. I know that these are hardly objective observations, but for me, using Windows as a desktop OS would probably cause me to commit crimes.

Linux's flexability and it's tendency to force me to understand what I'm doing is what sells me on it. Oh, and it's free :) What's lacking, in my eyes? 3D graphics, advanced audio/video tools, easy and consistant printing, and good mime support (I do not consider Windows to have good mime support either). Groff/Lyx does a good job of typesetting, but it would be nice if Abiword improves. These issues are being worked on, so that's good :) Give it time, and it'll get better :)

If Linux doesn't do what you need in order to make it a viable desktop OS, that's cool. If you could lend a hand in improving things, that would be good :) If not, thanks for using Linux where you can :)
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by kubrick · 2002-02-21 16:13 · Score: 2

I think Nautilus has so many features so it can be held up to Windows Explorer which has a huge featureset and is actually competitive with the modern Windows desktop rather than playing catch up with Windows 3.11.

This is why I don't run Nautilus -- because I don't think emulating Windows Explorer is the right way to go, especially considering the amount of resources required. File management nerdvana, for me, was Directory Opus 5 on the Amiga... nothing else even comes near it.

--
deus does not exist but if he does
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by scrytch · 2002-02-21 16:18 · Score: 2

Funny thing, it's Linux I just can't stand as a desktop OS, because it's always so damn *slow* whenever I want to do desktop-ish work on it. I can use emacs to write code on either platform, but when I want to run off some handouts, I just get the job done faster in Word. I used to run windows for IE, now I run windows for Mozilla. I discovered it's just Mozilla on Linux that gives the project a bad name...

I don't want to be "forced to understand" what I'm doing. I already know what it's doing behind the scenes. I'd rather it stay behind the damn scenes where it belongs.

--
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by juju2112 · 2002-02-21 17:40 · Score: 3, Informative

To run KDE you really need a current machine with a decent amount of RAM. I haven't run any tests so I can't say what exactly the system requirements are. But I can say that it runs plenty fast on my machine (Duron 700 w/128mb RAM). And yes, KDE has gotten awesome in the past 12 months.
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by Graymalkin · 2002-02-21 18:36 · Score: 2

Nautilus acting like Windows Explorer is less Nautilus emulating Windows and more Nautilus better following the concepts laid out by the Macintosh HIG which is one of the best books on computer itnerfaces I've read. Windows has gone from an almost unusable state where iconic representations had little to do with the actual underlying concept of the object being manipulated to emulating what MacOS had done and use consistant and easy to understand metaphors. Nautilus like Windows has begun to better noun then verb principals, seeing an object and then telling the program to do something to that object. File management is basic and not really the aim of either Explorer or Nautilus, both are trying to do their best to present media to the user, the actual content of the file rather than a mere representation of the file itself.

This is why Windows has a thumbnail mode, you can browse through a directory full of pictures by visual cues rather than archaic file names which may or may not have anything at all to do with the actual content of the file. Like I said it is going to be easier to find a picture I took if I can see them all rather than just names of pictures. I guess its just me in this case, I use Nautilus and Explorer to browse through my files which are mostly pictures and music files and the occassional bits of source code. Actual management of files isn't really my prime concern when I open up Nautilus or Explorer. I don't need to go in an rearrange them very often.

--
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Re:GNOME vs KDE for the newbie by kubrick · 2002-02-22 16:28 · Score: 2

Nautilus acting like Windows Explorer is less Nautilus emulating Windows and more Nautilus better following the concepts laid out by the Macintosh HIG which is one of the best books on computer itnerfaces I've read.

Macintosh HIG are good, but I find the Macintosh Finder too restrictive for the more powerful tasks. This is why I liked DOpus 5 -- regex-like multiple renames, great for renaming multiple pictures, etc. Also things like filetyping by a multitude of file attributes -- extension, name, size, bytes in file headers, etc. All that and an extensible API, so others could write archive browsers, FTP modules, etc. that fit into the same space... some of this is old hat now, but wasn't at the time.

The Macintosh GUI always felt to me like a very carefully dumbed down interface. The best thing about many Amiga programs was that they were usable on that level, but if you went looking there were layers of complexity that were well designed and didn't mess up the entire user experience. (Not all programs were that good, of course, but a larger percentage than on any other platform, I found).

Anyway, I don't know why I'm bothering to mention it... just preaching an aesthetic of usabilty *and* power that few people seem to be able to combine well :/

--
deus does not exist but if he does

xvoice.sourceforge.net by bcboy · 2002-02-21 08:41 · Score: 2, Informative

It doesn't use the new gnome hooks, but it's usable today.

Merge! by Sir+Homer · 2002-02-21 08:45 · Score: 1, Redundant

It's getting to be a pain in the @$$ to have two different desktop enviroments with little competability for each other.

can it copy and paste between apps yet? by AugstWest · 2002-02-21 08:59 · Score: 2, Interesting

honestly, that's just such a HUGE thing in a desktop environment.

consistent keystrokes that can copy and paste between apps -- is that so much to ask?

Re:can it copy and paste between apps yet? by ainsoph · 2002-02-21 09:02 · Score: 2

I have absolutely no problems cutting and pasting between apps in Gnome. If anything, KDE's klipper caused me more problems then anything.

So, what you talking bout willis?
Re:can it copy and paste between apps yet? by Waffle+Iron · 2002-02-21 09:13 · Score: 5, Funny

consistent keystrokes that can copy and paste between apps -- is that so much to ask?
Dude, that would be, like, taking freedom of choice away from the people. Every application needs to be free to negotiate data transfer with other apps as it sees fit.
What if an application knows that it handles data better than anyone else? Why should it give up its data to some inferior process? Why should it accept data from some flawed source? Remember, it's Garbage In, Garbage Out. Apps need to be able to protect themselves from other people's garbage.
Re:can it copy and paste between apps yet? by CynicTheHedgehog · 2002-02-21 09:14 · Score: 1

I'm waiting for CDE-style cut, copy, and paste strokes. Like SHIFT-DEL, SHIFT-INS, CTRL-C, CTRL-V, CTRL-X...it may sound lame, but I grew up on Windows and Solaris, and the X clipboard is just...well...shitty. Copying and pasting URLs is a nightmare unless you have Konqueror where you can hit that little X. That auto-select middle-click crap is for the birds.

I haven't really used Gnome, but I'm getting fed up with Klipper...is any of this implemented in Gnome?
Re:can it copy and paste between apps yet? by Alan · 2002-02-21 09:29 · Score: 5, Insightful

The problem is that you can cut/paste fine between gnome apps. Or KDE apps. Or java apps. Or motif apps. Each with their own way of doing it, and each with a 50% chance of being able to cut/paste from one type to another, and have it work the same way.

IE: cut in gnumeric and paste into gedit. Not a big deal. But cutting text in xarchie (the original) and paste into say, gimp? I don't think so. Or maybe, but it won't be the same way as it works for other apps.

The other thing I miss is cut/paste of non-text elements. I'm not talking full OLE, but why can't I cut an image in the gimp and paste it into abiword? That's what I want from gnome :\
Re:can it copy and paste between apps yet? by captredballs · 2002-02-21 09:31 · Score: 2, Informative

By default, konqueror is set up so that if you middle-click/paste anywhere in the main frame, it opens the url that was pasted. Its awesome.

1. highlight the url
2. click
3. read.

-Michael

--

I suppose I'm not too threatening, presently, but wait till I start Nautilus
Re:can it copy and paste between apps yet? by IamTheRealMike · 2002-02-21 09:53 · Score: 1

Yeah yeah, old news (thankfully :)
This problem is to do with a rather vague spec on how the clipboard in X works. Qt in particular interpreted it wrong, but the new version (3) does it right. GTK has always done it right afaik.
So - in approximately 5/6 months time once people have finished upgrading to KDE 3/GNOME 3 most apps (which these days tend to be written for one or the other) will be conformant and that'll be the end of it.
Yes you would be right in saying this is a stupid mistake to make and it's hurt the Linux desktop considerably. It has done, but that's the price you pay for not having 1 person in charge. When your working to commitee standards (especially very complex ones) with multiple implementations, misinterpretations will happen. That's life, especially Linux life. I'll live with it, because I prefer democracy to dictatorships even though sometimes dictatorships are more efficient.
Damn me - it's the Linux effect. I'm turning into more of a MS hating zealot every day! :(
Re:can it copy and paste between apps yet? by Alan · 2002-02-21 10:44 · Score: 1

Except for the swing apps :) Might be the same thing, who knows?
Re:can it copy and paste between apps yet? by Greg+Merchan · 2002-02-21 11:05 · Score: 2

Application support is the only thing missing that
prevents cut/copy/paste of non-text data (or even -say- RTF text).

X itself doesn't care what kind of data you cut/copy/paste. It's only the apps that do.
Re:can it copy and paste between apps yet? by Alan · 2002-02-21 12:49 · Score: 2

Yup, exactly. It's all there, but the apps don't support it without some (I assume) major diddling). And when some do, you still have the problem that you can't do anything with older or non-gnome non-kde apps.

I guess part of the blessing and the curse of free software is that you can use whatever you want. You can use bobstoolkit for your gfx routines if you'd like, regardless of the fact that it doesn't support functions x,y,z.

Windows never has this problem because they use one toolkit, and one API, and it's all built into that api. Maybe the cut/paste functions that are in the gnome/kde API need to support more than just text (or they should enforce cut/paste ability to applicable widgets, instead of leaving it up to the programmer to remember to write the code to make it happen).

I'm sure part of the problem is programmer laziness. If the toolkit(s) that people programmed in had all this done for them already, in such a brain dead way that they didn't have to worry about it, there would be far less bitching (IMHO). Of course, it might already be in there and easy to do, but is it so easy that the program doesn't have to do anything to it? If so then great, now make it work for pictures, and other data types :)

#include
/* yes, I am a programmer, no I'm not a gtk/kde programmer, yes I know I shouldn't bitch and I should just do it myself. */
Re:can it copy and paste between apps yet? by X-ViRGE · 2002-02-21 13:47 · Score: 1

Copying and pasting between any decently modern apps works perfectly fine. The only problems lately have been Qt2, which did not conform with the X clipboard standard. GNOME has conformed with it for quite some time, and Qt3 will supposedly conform as well.

It still looks like... by ChaoticCoyote · 2002-02-21 09:04 · Score: 3, Insightful

...Windows. I'm not saying that's a bad thing -- in fact, it may be a Good Thing for moving people off the MS desktop onto Linux.

I'm just wondering what's innovative about Gnome 2 -- what makes this something special or different? And why did it need to be incompatible with apps written for previous versions? I can still run old Win 95 apps on Win 2K, for the most part.

I'll appreciate polite and informative answers...

--
All about me

Re:It still looks like... by nadie · 2002-02-21 09:38 · Score: 1

You ask what makes Gnome different from MS Windows? It is software libre.
Re:It still looks like... by ywwg · 2002-02-21 09:39 · Score: 1

if by "looks like windows" you mean it is a WIMP interface, then ... duh. if by that you mean "the default theme looks like windows," then ... change it. I mean seriously, is there an operating system that doesn't "look like windows" anymore?
Re:It still looks like... by bogado · 2002-02-21 09:43 · Score: 3, Informative

Gnome 2 has a diferent API, or new version of several base libraries. You can still have the old versions of the libraries installed and you apps compiled to use GNOME 1.4 will work just fine, buit they will not use any of the new features. In that respect it is the same for win95 and win2K, the only diference is that some of the new dll in win2k has the same API so the old applications won't have to load an older version. This is works fine if your API will not change from one version to another (MS usualy changes APIs in a additive way, the new API has as a subset the old API). Linux apps usualy are open sourced so it tends to update the API more often, but allowing the old apps to compile to the new version.

--
[]'s Victor Bogado da Silva Lins
^[:wq

Re:for existing GNOME applications? by ambrosius27 · 2002-02-21 09:04 · Score: 3, Informative

You're right that GNOME1 applications don't work *on* GNOME2, but they do work *with* GNOME2, since the GNOME1 libraries are fully parallel installable with the GNOME2 libraries. In other words, you can have your new desktop environment, the applications that make use of the new and better libraries, and still use your favorite applications that haven't been ported yet. It's a beautiful world.

I can't really comment on comparisons with KDE, as I'm not familiar with KDE's accessibility. However, accessibility has been a driving force in GNOME2 development. Sun, in particular, has been very active in this area. See, for example, their work on the Accessibility Toolkit (ATK) or the GNOME on-screen keyboard or the screen-magnifier (see here). You can find more about the GNOME Accessibility Project (GAP) here. All this is being designed for GNOME2; so, we'll see more of the implementation of the accessibility stuff with this release onward.

As for the question of who is using GNOME2, well, the developers are using it mostly -- which you might expect since GNOME2 beta just came out! ;-)

Cheers!

--

~~~~~~~~~
dissertus scribendo latine videri volo.

GNOME 1.0 by cpeterso · 2002-02-21 09:14 · Score: 1

didn't someone actually think that people need more time to find the bugs???

Don't you remember GNOME 1.0??

--
cpeterso

Re:Some juicy screenshots - how old are these? by Alan · 2002-02-21 09:17 · Score: 2

What it looks like is that someone has posted the various ss of apps running or ported to gnome2 that have gone through the gnome2 dev list over the last few months. There's probably a lot that are out of date visually or functionally.

How about neither KDE or Gnome by Anonymous Coward · 2002-02-21 09:21 · Score: 1, Interesting

If you need something faster and more light weight then give FVWM95 a try, along with ROX Desktop.

GTK+-2.0 by chtephan · 2002-02-21 09:21 · Score: 1

The development version von GTK+ (v1.3) is incredibly slow for me.

I suppose it has something to do with it's new double buffering mechanism.

I personally think it makes it really unusable. Klicking around and XFree takes up to 100% CPU.

Has it something to do with a buggy XFree driver or is it a general problem? (tdfx driver)

Re:Cut and paste? by akeru · 2002-02-21 09:24 · Score: 1

And your assumptions would be wrong . . . (isn't it nice when that happens?) All of the default text widgets have standard right-mouse popups that include cut copy and paste for that "ease of use" the Windows provides, if you like that slow method of pasting text. And it still, of course, supports the wonderously speedy select middle-mouse paste.

--Shahms

--

Let's hope that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space 'Cause there's bugger-all down here on Earth.

Re:could a port to windows be done? I've got it! by Havokmon · 2002-02-21 09:27 · Score: 3, Funny

Hmmm...

We could start a project to map xlib calls to corresponding Windows API calls.. But we'd have to name it using a recursive acronym..

I've got it!
LINE - Line is not an emulator!!

--
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)

Re:wrong extensions....should be jpg by Hal-9001 · 2002-02-21 09:28 · Score: 1

I imagine they used png because of it's lossless compression. The compression used by jpeg would probably overwhelm the antialiasing that seems to be the big selling point of GNOME 2.0.

--
"It take 9 months to bear a child, no matter how many women you assign to the job."

Re:Gnome 2.0 Released!!! by captredballs · 2002-02-21 09:34 · Score: 1

Referring to Gnome as "just a shitty windowmanager" is awfully shortsighted, don't you think? As I understand it, Gnome doesn't even include a window manager, but uses external ones like sawfish and enlightenment.

Maybe you can explain to us how a component model and gui framework is the same as a process that manages the presentation of X windows clients.

--

I suppose I'm not too threatening, presently, but wait till I start Nautilus

Re:oh, dear by mini+me · 2002-02-21 09:35 · Score: 3, Funny

I just saw it as well, great ad!

It says:
This is a box. -- the ad is inside a border (a box)

Then it says:
You may think outside of it. -- And what is outside of the box? Well the Slashdot page is.

MS might want to rethink that ad.

Truetype fonts by crivens · 2002-02-21 09:36 · Score: 1

God Gnome looks so much better with Truetype fonts! (As does anything IMO).

Does anyone think that a major distro will include a Gnome beta in future releases?

I know I could download, compile and install it, but I just don't have the time for that.

Gnome looking good by MicroBerto · 2002-02-21 09:38 · Score: 1

Everyone always talks about making gnome look good and all, which most think it does.

But if you ask me, if you want ANYTHING to look nice, just apply the latest Mozilla Modern themes! I have mine in gnome and sawfish and it looks quite badass!

--
Berto

non-text paste by mikeee · 2002-02-21 09:42 · Score: 2

I heard MacOS X has some wacky 'services' thing similar to cut-and-paste that involves passing mime-ified data around between apps. ANybody know details on this?

Re:non-text paste by j7953 · 2002-02-21 12:26 · Score: 2

I heard MacOS X has some wacky 'services' thing similar to cut-and-paste that involves passing mime-ified data around between apps. ANybody know details on this?

But OS X doesn't run an X Window System by default.

What would be interesting to know is if cut & paste on OS X also works between X applications using different toolkits and between X applications and Aqua applications when you run a rootless X server in parallel to the Aqua desktop. If that does work, than Apple's system might indeed be interesting for Linux as well.

--
Sig (appended to the end of comments I post, 54 chars)

Re:GNOME2 looks like Windows? by ethereal · 2002-02-21 10:07 · Score: 1

The scrollbars, the gnome menu, and also the file browser look very similar to Win2k in some of the shots. Although I'm hoping that these just happen to be themes.

--

Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and

Re:could a port to windows be done? I've got it! by Anonymous Coward · 2002-02-21 10:09 · Score: 1, Interesting

ahem...
http://line.sourceforge.net/

Re:could a port to windows be done? I've got it! by moebius_4d · 2002-02-21 10:16 · Score: 3, Informative

An xlib port to windows is already underway, and Donald Becker is doing it. See w11

Re:Cut and paste? by be-fan · 2002-02-21 10:16 · Score: 2

When will people figure out the joys of context sensitive menus? Linux GUIs don't use them nearly enough. While they may add one level of indirection over a shortcut button (such as the middle-mouse crap) its a much more general and flexible method. The middle mouse button is too important to be held hostage to something as specific as copying text. It takes a millisecond to do right click->copy vs middle click (the real meat of the time is in the text selection) and there is no reason why it has taken so long for a decent right-click copy to be implemented. Of course, this is all moot anyway. All of this stuff should have been fully configurable from the beginning.

--
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...

MacOSX *is* the ultimate *nix desktop. by Anonymous Coward · 2002-02-21 10:32 · Score: 1, Insightful

Too bad Steve Jobs is still obsessing about building the box. If he wasn't mentally ill, he'd release Mac OS for the intel platform and that would be the game. Done. El fin.

Someone tell me why they re-hired him?

I swear - if you could buy a Mac Desktop binary for your linux or BSD or Solaris unix back-end, can you imagine what the world would be like? Seriously! All the Apple Corp. experience with designing usable UI coupled with the unix industry (incl. the volunteer industry) experience with building a high-powered backend...

But the bastard wants to sell you the box, and there's apparently no one inside the company with the balls to tell him he's being an idiot.

Re:MacOSX *is* the ultimate *nix desktop. by Anonymous Coward · 2002-02-21 21:18 · Score: 1, Interesting

>Too bad Steve Jobs is still obsessing about building the box. If he wasn't mentally ill, he'd release Mac OS for the intel platform and that would be the game. Done. El fin.

AFAIK Apple still makes most of its money from selling hardware.

I'd like to see OSX for Intel just as much as the next guy but imagine what would happen if Apple would stop 'obsessing about the box' and just concentrate on selling software.

Can you say BeOS? Thought you could.
Re:MacOSX *is* the ultimate *nix desktop. by fredrik70 · 2002-02-22 00:16 · Score: 2, Interesting

And what about software for the x86 version of OSX? Also, do you think MS would allow apple to go for the x86 market ad still produce Office for MacOS?
Doubt Apple would like to go into direct confrontation with MS...
Apple is also more of a hardware company than a software company, that's weere they make their money. Sure I would love to have MacOSX on my box home but I doubt it will ever happen unless I buy a mac... maybe in a year or so.. too much debts now!
tada

--
if (!signature) { throw std::runtime_error("No sig!"); }

Contrary to popular belief... by Pope+Slackman · 2002-02-21 10:38 · Score: 2

{Windows|Mac} and unix coexist rather nicely.
Unix is an excellent server platform, but a poor desktop[1], while Windows/Mac are decent desktops, but not something I'd put on a server[2].

Otherwise, I guess I'll keep my "desktop environment" to nothing but an xterm console and only use Linux when I have to

That's what I do, as SSH and a web browser are pretty much all that's required to admin my FreeBSD box.

C-X C-S
[1] X bites no matter how many layers you drop on top of it.
[2] Servers don't need framebuffers.

Gloves with wrist protectors by daveym · 2002-02-21 10:44 · Score: 1

Level makes nice gloves with wrist protectors built in...you should check them out (if you plan on boarding again, that is!).

--
"Chill, Orrin!"---Trent Lott

Re:Cut and paste? by Wolfier · 2002-02-21 10:48 · Score: 2

>And it still, of course, supports the
>wonderously speedy select middle-mouse paste

Depends on what you do. Middle-mouse paste is sure speedy sometimes, but one thing that isn't addressed in X is its single selection buffer - I still cannot paste to replace a selection - as soon as you make the selection, your previously-copied stuffs are *gone*.

A universal deployment of the clipboard concept would be great - the clipboard content should *NOT* be identical to the current selection.

Not a whole lot different by Tremul · 2002-02-21 11:19 · Score: 1

I've looked at several of the screen shots and their doesn't appear to be a whole lot of differences between 2.0 and 1.2. It looks like hte old gnome with a new theme or window manager. Could someone give a quick rundown on exactly what has changed UI wise besides anti aliasing?

I've been a KDE user for some time now. I think that it is far superiro to GNOME. I've haven't ever understood why you would write such a large project in C. The function names must get horrible after awhile.

--

"Can't sleep. Clowns will eat me"

Re:Not a whole lot different by thesfinx · 2002-02-21 20:04 · Score: 1

The changes are not directly user-oriented(UI). The GNOME2-platform has a LOT of changes in the background. The development platform is where the BIG changes are.

I think that GNOME 2.2 will have some other look 'n feel, but the development platform will remain the same. (binary compatible).

I'm running the snapshots from Ximian. GNOME 2 rocks :-) as far as I can tell.

Have you ever written a program for KDE or GNOME? I mean, did you actually look at the function names? They are quite logical.

Re:GNOME2 looks like Windows? by BlowCat · 2002-02-21 12:22 · Score: 2

Look is not everything. API is radically different from KDE.

Re:wrong extensions....should be jpg by prisonernumber7 · 2002-02-21 14:49 · Score: 1

Just for the sake of it.. =)

Real artists use gzip > file.jpg.

--
&& aemula C. ab stirpe interiit

Why dont they release in one big file by HanzoSan · 2002-02-21 15:26 · Score: 3, Interesting

I hate having to download and install 23092039 diffrent files, ill never update gnome.

--
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac

Re:Why dont they release in one big file by sonnyjz · 2002-03-03 15:04 · Score: 1

I totally agree with you. It is such a pain to download and compile all of those programs. Even with my scaled down version of it, it still takes a LONG time.

--
- Sonnyjz

Re:Wow by qurob · 2002-02-21 16:26 · Score: 1

Windows = OS

GNOME = WM/GUI

Re:Cut and paste? by Tepic++ · 2002-02-21 18:06 · Score: 1

In GTK (the version used in Gnome 1.4 and I think in Gnome 1.2) you can select text with the right mouse button. This text is not copied, but it is replaced when you paste text using the middle mouse button (it is highlighted in gray rather than blue, with the default theme).

Re:URGENT: MASSIVE MOZILLA SECURITY HOLE FOUND!! by jabapi · 2002-02-21 18:27 · Score: 1

goatse.cx? really now, you could have at least used something that looked like a security site...

... but the goatse looks like a security HOLE.

Good God were you right by Spuggy · 2002-02-21 21:20 · Score: 1

Nailer,

Been using apt for a few hours now and you're pretty much right, I have no idea how I got along w/out it before. It's by far the most useful program I've seen for Redhat in terms of installations yet. I figured it wouldn't be a big deal sticking w/ manual RPM installations, but after dealing with missed dependencies time and time again and seeing how this resolves it, I can't complain at all.

-Greg

Re:for existing GNOME applications? by tal197 · 2002-02-21 23:35 · Score: 2

You're right that GNOME1 applications don't work *on* GNOME2, but they do work *with* GNOME2, since the GNOME1 libraries are fully parallel installable with the GNOME2 libraries.

I had a look at the GNOME2 stuff a while back, but it looked like you couldn't (easily) install python-gnome without breaking all existing python-gnome (and pygtk) apps from 1.2. Has this changed yet?

The problem is that, while the Gtk developers renamed the libraries (with a 2 suffix), the python bindings still call the package 'gtk'.

So, 'import gtk' could get you either version, and the APIs are totally different (even more than between the C APIs).

how to compile by alczervik · 2002-02-22 00:12 · Score: 1

Where can I get instructions for compiling all of the GNOME 2.0 source code at the specified link.

Re:Cut and paste? by tal197 · 2002-02-22 00:40 · Score: 2

In GTK (the version used in Gnome 1.4 and I think in Gnome 1.2) you can select text with the right mouse button. This text is not copied, but it is replaced when you paste text using the middle mouse button (it is highlighted in gray rather than blue, with the default theme).

This feature has been removed in 2.0, due to fears that it would confuse users coming from Windows. Ctrl-U could be used to remove the existing text up to Gtk+-1.3.13, but that seems to have gone too now (at least in 1.3.14; not sure if this is a bug or not).

Your answer by festers · 2002-02-22 03:17 · Score: 1

http://canvas.gnome.org:65348/gnomefaq/html/x104.h tml

--

-------
"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."

Re:evil propaganda by FooBarWidget · 2002-02-22 10:57 · Score: 1

*YAWN*
Am I supposed to feel insulted now? If so, that's one horribly flawed and unsuccessfull attempt to do so.

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