Slashdot Mirror
Overture Sues Google Over Pay-for-Placement Patent
Ana anonymous submitter wrote: "C|Net News is reporting that Overture is suing Google over its AdWords advertising method since it may be infringing upon Patent 6,269,361 'System and method for influencing a position on a search result list generated by a computer network search engine'."
I think we all know for a fact by now that Google is just stealing from other people who have created original ideas. Glad to see what's coming to them has arrived.
Someone named an OS for me.
they have been patented before, and they seem to still be. but can you patent a way of achieving a goal? Should you be able to, and are there exceptions?
I thought about modding you down as the troll you are, but because I'm full of whimsy this evening I'll instead ask you to support your arguement with evidence, if you have any.
Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
"Basically we've analyzed the patent and determined that we do not infringe on any valid claim that it contains,"
Translation: Your patent sucks ass and we have the money to prove it.
Burn Hollywood Burn
This seems remniscent of amazon's patent on 1 click purchasing. If anything, it goes to show that what we think is a common sense idea is "innovative" according to business folk. I'm sure google could work their way around it by either calling it something else or developing a new and better alternative method.
The elements of a valid patent are that the invention be new, useful and non-obvious. This one sounds obvious to me - order them based upon how much they paid you? C'mon, this is pathetic.
if google did actually infringe that patent, shit on them... if they didnt, then overture is just doing this for publicity :P (and shit on them)....
*pokes google.com with a twig*
If I take a patent out for a "large spherical 'star-island' inhabited with wondrous bacterial-like organisms on top of it's surface" would I then be within my right to own Earth?
Just think of all the Environmentalists I could sue!
This wasn't just plain terrible, this was fancy terrible. This was terrible with raisins in it. - Dorothy Parker
How is "give us money and we'll rank you higher" an original contribution to art and science? It reminds me of the feminist character at the frat party at the end of PCU, with the dawning realization, "You mean, if you're nice to [males], they bring you stuff?"
It's days like this, where I'm almost ready to write my Senator and try and take an active role, that I look at the decisions being made and say to myself, fuck it, we're too late.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
I believe what they have patented is more of a business
model. Their proprietary algorithms are more in the
arena of fraud detection, people clicking on the same
$4 gambling link 100 times. These are kept as trade
secrets instead of being patented.
this is probably just another play for recognition. i had never heard of Overture before this, so i clicked the link to see what they were. woo.. another alta-yahoo-whatever. they're probably hoping to get the traffic, and maybe get some of google's loot if they're lucky.
Although I submitted a story (since rejected) about this, I'm looking for more info. Apparently, Comcast.net customers who try searching Google get the following message...
/search?hl=en&q=slashdot from this server. (Client IP address: *snip*)
403 Forbidden
Your client does not have permission to get URL
Unfortunately, Google has received a significant amount of abuse from your network. Because some person or people on your network have violated our Terms of Service (http://www.google.com/terms_of_service.html) and sent us numerous automated search queries, we have been forced to shut off access to Google's services from your network.
Note that we are not accusing you personally of having violated our Terms of Service; you are most likely an innocent victim of someone else's bad behavior. We're really sorry to have had to take this action.
We very much want to be able to work this problem out with your sysadmin or your ISP's network and/or abuse department. Unfortunately, so far, we have not been able to do so. Please contact your sysadmin or your ISP's network and/or abuse department and request that they track down who is causing this problem with Google. Please don't complain to Google about this problem (since there's nothing we can do until the problem on your network has been identified and stopped). Instead, please complain to your sysadmin or your ISP's network and/or abuse department. Letting them know that they need to take immediate action so that you can enjoy full access to the Internet (including Google) is the quickest way for you to regain your Google service.
We wholeheartedly apologize for the inconvenience to you, and with your help, we expect that we'll soon be able provide search results to you once more.
This has been confirmed by myself and 3 friends on Comcast.net. Anyone have more information? Please share with the class.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
Oh man, you ruined the ending of that movie for me! Damn you!
A system and method for enabling information providers using a computer network such as the Internet to influence a position for a search listing within a search result list generated by an Internet search engine. The system and method of the present invention provides a database having accounts for the network information providers. Each account contains contact and billing information for a network information provider. In addition, each account contains at least one search listing having at least three components: a description, a search term comprising one or more keywords, and a bid amount. The network information provider may add, delete, or modify a search listing after logging into his or her account via an authentication process. The network information provider influences a position for a search listing in the provider's account by first selecting a search term relevant to the content of the web site or other information source to be listed. The network information provider enters the search term and the description into a search listing. The network information provider influences the position for a search listing through a continuous online competitive bidding process. The bidding process occurs when the network information provider enters a new bid amount, which is preferably a money amount, for a search listing. The system and method of the present invention then compares this bid amount with all other bid amounts for the same search term, and generates a rank value for all search listings having that search term. The rank value generated by the bidding process determines where the network information providers listing will appear on the search results list page that is generated in response to a query of the search term by a searcher located at a client computer on the computer network. A higher bid by a network information provider will result in a higher rank value and a more advantageous placement.
'System and method for influencing a position on a search result list generated by a computer network search engine'.
Specifically, the patent covers a bidding process in which link owners compete in a bidding process to show which bids are highest. Though, in this case, Google is only using this data for the ads on the right sidebar of searches. GoTo.com used the bidding process to insert paid links within its regular search results. The free links would appear afterward.
The application of the technique is where this differs, but this is yet another case of an overly broad patent.
"Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
Just do a quick google search to find out more info on this story...
Can I get a patent for a method and system for taking out vague, simplistic patents for the sole purpose of extortion?
Just in case anyone forgot, see Subject. C|Net seems unaware, and refers to Overture as if they had always existed. But it's still the same Idealab-spawned dot-com-bubble outfit that sued Disney's Go.com for trademark infringment and won.
And they STILL haven't turned a profit.
Edith Keeler Must Die
Looking at Overture.com's about page, I see the following:
"The company was created in 1997 in response to three fundamental problems it perceived with Internet search, including poor quality results, random ordering of listings and a weak advertising revenue model"
1997? Someone HAD to be doing this before 1997.
Also.... "System and method for influencing a position on a search result list generated by a computer network search engine." seems pretty vague. Anything searchable and sortable on a network is subject to this, whether it be by clicking a button that says Date to sort by date or sorting by relevance or whatever.
The basis of a search engine is to sort matching hits by order of relevance.... I don't see how this is patentable (then again, as our patent office has proven, ANYTHING can be patented, no matter how dumb or no matter how many million people have done it before).
-kwishot
The patent office is obviously on the payroll of Lawyers. If they had their shit in order, lawyers would be outta business in this respect.
I must go bash my head now.
make the bad man go away.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Eat at Joe's.
If their results are based on how much the site pays, then under what circumstances would they produce more accurate hits than almost any other algorithm for ranking sites?
If no one uses them for searches, then why would web sites pay them money for listing?
I can't see how their business model would work, except if they can make money by suing others.
Ah, now I see how their business model works.
For the 99% of you who didn't read the references:
Overture isn't suing about Google's page rank results, nor do they claim that the ad results are part of the main search. They're saying that the adwords results in and of themselves constitute a pay-for-play search that infringes the patent.
Personally, I think it sounds like a desperation play of a dying company.
Wait, this is a patent over search result placement. Of course, this is a dumb patent, but... it doesn't apply to Google. The AdWords don't influence search result placement, but rather an extra little bar saying "this might be relevant" on the top.
Demo: search for tennis rackets. The DealTime.com link is the AdWord, which is nothing like a search result.
How can they do this? And why not go over some search engine that does sell placement, rather than Google?
Some bad (i.e., obvious/software/business method) patents are on annoying inventions. That's a real dilemma. On the one hand, I don't like to see the USPTO grant bad patents. On the other hand, if patents on spam techniques, search result reordering, and other annoying marketing and business practices get enforced vigorously and hence get used less, our lives get easier. Can someone please patent animated GIFs and the BLINK tag?
What about them... do the methods have to be different, or the same? At what level of difference is there? Obviously a "system" and "method" could mean totally different things. Besides, a method of promoting, or demoting a search result seem to be like an integrial part of any good query system. I mean its all part of data-mining, right? And, what exactly is the definition of computer network? machines connected via the "internet" of computer networked in some other way?
It isn't a lie if you belive it.
"We've recently become aware that (Google is) infringing on our patent, and it's our policy to protect our intellectual property," said Overture spokesman Al Duncan.
Google in February said it would begin auctioning ad-sponsored links on its search-results pages
And they just realized now?!? Personally I think the fact that they waited over a month while letting Google use and integrate this "patented" idea and then without warning suddenly dropping this lawsuit on them shows a deliberate vendetta against Google and this suit should be thrown out on that basis alone.
I stole this Sig
According to the article, Overture should be suing every search engine that uses targeted ads, but they chose only Google. Perhaps they're envious of Google's reputation (I hadn't even heard of Overture until now).
The system and method of the present invention then compares this bid amount with all other bid amounts for the same search term, and generates a rank value for all search listings having that search term
As far as I can tell from watching the Google searches, you search for a term which happens to trigger a paying customers advert, it just appears at the top of the list. No sliding scale of where it appears in relation to other results. It's more of a keyword triggered ad than anything else.
Yet another prime example of why patents shouldn't apply to software.
The entire software industry should kneel down and kiss the feet of IBM, Xerox, and other early software pioneers for not patenting every software related concept... the linked list, the hash table, binary sorts, bubble sorts, grouping data, grouping data and methods, batch processing... because if they had done so, computers would still be in large room in the basements of our universities & large corporations, with little application in our lives.
Just try and think of something that hasn't been affected by computers.
It is sickening to look at many software companies today... always looking for the path of least resistance, and never willing to claim responsibility for thier actions.
It sounds like someone patented the "corruption of the results of one's own search engine."
What the hell kind of patent is that?
:)
The patent might, at a stretch, cover Google's AdWords Select program, since that allows you to pay for a rank amongst other ads. However, it this still doesn't affect the search results, only ads that are clearly ads, so it doesn't sound like the patent would cover this either.
I can't say anything about their Premium Sponsorship program (the one that puts text ads at the top of the page, rather than to the right) since their website doesn't say anything about ranking of those types of ads.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day, but set him on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Year 2005 - Patent 34,269,361:
Placing the most expensive products at eye level (in a store), or on the first page requested (on a web site) to entice the consumer to spend more money, resulting in a larger profit.
Sad thing is, while I was writting this message it struck me that this might exist now!
"The scientist describes what is; The engineer creates what never was." - Theodore von Karman
Goto.com renamed themselves Overture after all the bad publicity they got from suing Disney. Now, they're suing Google. Once they lose again, what will they change their name to this time?
I'm reminded of this frivolous lawsuit: British Telecom's Hyperlink Claims To Reach U.S. Court.
It's days like this, where I'm almost ready to write my Senator and try and take an active role, that I look at the decisions being made and say to myself, fuck it, we're too late.
And that is why things will only get worse.
Not because they must. Not because it is inevitable. Not because we cannot solve [insert commonly believed-to-be insurmountable problem here].
But because you, like most Americans, have been conditioned over the last 30 years by virtually every media and educational institution to not only look down and and snicker at activism, but have also been convinced that it will do no good.
Let me tell you, the only thing that really makes government nervous (besides an attack by a stronger power, which the USA doesn't need to fear), are activists in the streat. Indeed, that is really all that they truly fear, which is why since the early 70's so much money and effort have been spent convincing you and everyone else that you are powerless and, worse, a laughing stock if you try and do anything other than passively take whatever they dish out.
And gradually, over time, they have succeeded it appears.
I bet your definition of search results differs from the lawyers'. They're seeing the whole page returned by Google as the search result, not the smaller listing of, um, search results.
In all seriousness, though, does anyone else find this lawsuit absurd? And I think I just figured out the term "patently obvious"... :)
________________________________________________
suwain_2
And they don't even say how they do it. They just say a system to achieve a goal.
:)
I should go patent a system by using a computer that solves NP complete problems. Then if anyone solves NP problems and tries to make money, I can sue them because I said I patented it a long time ago
God spoke to me
Goto.com became overture
This paragraph of the article is phrased badly. The concept of patenting a business method is not new. What's new is that USPTO and the courts are allowing these stupid things to stand.
The Supreme Court wrote a fabulous ruling about bad patents way back in 1950. I urge everyone to read the full ruling and see how utterly it applies to modern events. Here's a couple favorite quotes:
Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose
Send you letters to Overture expressing your outrage over this. I've fired them off a nasty-gram. You can contact them by emailing:
feedback@overture.com
Overture sucks anyways, google is so much better.
Think about it, the "YELLOW" pages are pay for placement, while in the "WHITE" pages most listings are free, excepting businesses who pay extra high rates on thier local phone bill to have bold and two lines instead of one.
Hello! Does the addition of the word internet make this entirely different or something?
Internet adaptations of widely used ideas in print should not be pattented. The search engine just serves to filter the irrelevant from the relevant, something done in the yellow pages by "CATEGORIZATION", its just the with a search engine, the categorization is much more general and can be both a benifit and a detriment to the quality of the searching experience.
My 2cents, but I think I have a point here.
Spring is here. Don't believe me, look outside!
Sometimes I like to play Devil's advocate, especially when a bunch of Linux weenies say stupid shit. It is entertaining and keeps my off the streets. Most of the time it is worth it because it is rare for slashdotters to see both sides of the coin concurrently. Then a story like this pops up. I simply cannot do anything but shake my head in shame at these people. What in the fuck are they doing patenting a pay for placement advertising scheme and why the fuck was this patent granted. This is a sad day indeed. When will the hurting stop and the healing begin?
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Ahh, I have heard of goto.com, I just haven't been there in awhile. I remember not liking their search features (Google was/is better), and now I truly hate them.
I am so sick of stupid bullshit patents.
...Stick your lame assed fucking patent up your pussy ass!
Thank you for your attention in this mater.
Search for "slashdot", and it gives you an ad asking you to work at Google.
They know what they doing!
That's it.
I'm going to patent adding 2 plus 2 as a method of getting an answer of four.
I think I've got a good shot at it.
This is *really* getting ridiculous.
Ed R.Zahurak
You know, oblivion keeps looking better every day.
Ana anonymous submitter wrote...
/. is becoming politically correct and referring to the submitter as a female?
Is
Wow. This is my first time looking at a patent, and you know what? It reminds me very much of every kind of half-assed spec my client handed me when I was a web programmer.
Read on for analysis:
The system and method of the present invention provides a database
Provides a database? How about "uses," "engages," "is dependent upon"? This usage of "provides" is so far out in left-field that it's almost backwards. And yet, I see this exact mistake a lot.
In addition, each account contains at least one search listing having at least three components: a description, a search term comprising one or more keywords, and a bid amount.
As always, input fields are detailed to a laughably meticulous degree. Not to mention, the usage of "comprising" is backwards. One or more keywords comprise a search term. A search term is composed of one or more keywords.
The network information provider enters the search term and the description into a search listing.
And the physical process of using the application is folded into the spec itself like it's some sort of revelation. "First, the user fires up the application." Woah, crucial info!
The rank value generated by the bidding process determines where the network information providers listing will appear on the search results list page that is generated in response to a query of the search term by a searcher located at a client computer on the computer network.
Meanwhile, the actual guts of the algorithm are never defined, instead replaced with tangential buzzwords like "client computer" and useless information about network topology.
This is the current state-of-the-art in spec, boys. This is why your programming job is hell.
anyone else get a good read on that patent? a good number of their references are openly critical of them
"Search Sites' Shocking Secret"
"With Goto.com's Search Engine, the highest bidder shall be ranked first"
"GoTo.Hell--What happens when an online search engine accepts cash from Web sites?"
"Searching for the highest bidder"
"New search engine allows sites to pay their way to top"
and the list goes on. sheesh.
(* How is "give us money and we'll rank you higher" an original contribution to art and science? *)
Soooooooo stupid.
I would love to see a written justification by the granter of the patent. What the living f_____ was going thru his/her stoned little head?
If you patent delivering pizza by ion rocket, they will probably grant it because ion rockets sound like gee-wiz stuff. You are neither inventing pizzas, delivery, *nor* ion rockets. But the combo somehow delights the patent office jerk.
A PHB-like buzzword trigger-bot working over there?
Table-ized A.I.
(begin violation)
SELECT * FROM Matches ORDER BY BribeAmt DESC
(end violation)
Table-ized A.I.
Every patent is the grant of a privilege of exacting tolls from the public. The Framers plainly did not want those monopolies freely granted. The invention, to justify a patent, had to serve the ends of science - to push back the frontiers of chemistry, physics, and the like; to make a distinctive contribution to scientific knowledge. That is why through the years the opinions of the Court commonly have taken "inventive genius" as the test. * It [340 U.S. 147, 155] is not enough that an article is new and useful. The Constitution never sanctioned the patenting of gadgets. Patents serve a higher end - the advancement of science. An invention need not be as startling as an atomic bomb to be patentable. But it has to be of such quality and distinction that masters of the scientific field in which it falls will recognize it as an advance.
One is left to sadly wonder why things have fallen so low.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
To me it seems that the patent has nothing with google's adwords. Doesn't the patent only cover adjusting the ranking, and not actually showing an ad based on keywords.
I'm still waiting for my patent on Method of Communication by Modulating Fiberous Organic Chords.
wasnt it just the case that till recently you couldnt actualy patent software methods?
Overture: publically traded company, needs to keep its share price buoyant.
Google: privately-held company, no need to deal in short-term publicity stunts.
Get the picture?
I firmly believe that the ranking system in place on google makes it a far better search engine. If I am looking about in their directory, I will more often than not hit the top 10 whether out of lazyness or whatnot. It helps measure the popularity of the site and the usefulness. Weeds out the crap links IMHO.
tinfoilmedia
The dead wrong. The owners and employess of Google should be sentenced to life in prison or executed as terrorists for their blatant disregard for very valueable intellectual property.
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Land of the Free and Home of the Brave.
Geez, some of these patents are crazy. Instead of patenting REAL innovation, many folk are misusing the patent and legal system to try to gain a monopoly on obvious extentions to existing technologies.
I think it's high time we asked Congress to pass a law which results in high damages to those who are caught attempting to patenting inventions that don't require innovation.
Let's see. Drug companies spend millions on research. OK, perhaps they do merit a reward. Maybe a patent is the right thing.
Online retailer creates software so advertisements appear based on user input. Hum, no, I don't think this is a notable innovation that merits a 20 year monopoly.
A google search tonight (from comcast) turned up these results:
/search?sourceid=navclient&querytime=UXvoE&q=a nything from this server. (Client IP address: 68.45.xxx.xxx)
Unfortunately, Google has received a significant amount of abuse from your network. Because some person or people on your network have violated our Terms of Service (http://www.google.com/terms_of_service.html) and sent us numerous automated search queries, we have been forced to shut off access to Google's services from your network.
Note that we are not accusing you personally of having violated our Terms of Service; you are most likely an innocent victim of someone else's bad behavior. We're really sorry to have had to take this action.
We very much want to be able to work this problem out with your sysadmin or your ISP's network and/or abuse department. Unfortunately, so far, we have not been able to do so. Please contact your sysadmin or your ISP's network and/or abuse department and request that they track down who is causing this problem with Google. Please don't complain to Google about this problem (since there's nothing we can do until the problem on your network has been identified and stopped). Instead, please complain to your sysadmin or your ISP's network and/or abuse department. Letting them know that they need to take immediate action so that you can enjoy full access to the Internet (including Google) is the quickest way for you to regain your Google service.
We wholeheartedly apologize for the inconvenience to you, and with your help, we expect that we'll soon be able provide search results to you once more.
403 Forbidden Your client does not have permission to get URL
Perhaps this is a result of comcast telling all their new customers 'instead of a newsserver, go use google groups'
Royal PITA
How is "give us money and we'll rank you higher" an original contribution to art and science?"
It doesn't contribute to science. It's yet another of those awful business method patents. I don't think anyone outside of the US grants this kind of junk
In a related story, Mother Nature files suit against the Weather Channel, for trying to patent wind, rain and the cold front, while Almighty God sues ALL CREATION for patenting anything, since we're all derivative works, anyway...
The company I work for does third party fulfillment. During an advertising meeting I mentioned Google's AdWords Select. Basically you pay only for the the clicks, giving you unlimited impressions as long as your click through ratio stays above 0.5% So far, AdWords has paid for itself with new clients. I really hope that Overture doesn't win this one. Unfortunately, the patent seems to describe extactly how Adwords Select operates. The more money your willing to spend on a click, the higher up on the page your ad is shown.
Webposition Gold is a fucking evil little piece of software used by marketing and advertising consultants to measure how Web sites are ranked on various search engines. It bombards the engines with automated queries in order to try to deduce -- and therefore defeat -- their ranking algoritithms.
Google hates that.
Someone on your block was probably using Webposition Gold, so your block got locked out.
What's funny is on their main page they say "our search results appear in blah, blah, blah, blah, Netscape and blah".
Netscape's search engine is google. So if the supply results for Netscape then, by proxy, they support results for google.
Considering current USPTO policies, it may not be too late to patent these ideas. These innovations are still major opportunities for enterprising developers to generate licensing revenue and help stimulate our economy. I call first dibs on hashtables.
...but I fear there's such a vast quantity of prior art in this area, I would be without a case.
Just recently google has stopped promoting the AdWords system which was a pay per impression. And now is promoting AdWords Select which is a pay per click-through. With AdWords Select the advertiser specifies how much they are maximumly willing to pay for a click through. Whoever has the highest maximum for a given word is ranked first. This new method may be an out for Google on the lawsuit.
Working for a search engine marketing company, I see a lot of what goes on in the search engine world. Everyone seems to think it's ridiculous that they are trying to enforce this patent. The bottom line is that when Overture(many may have known them as GoTo before changing their name a few months back) applied for this patent, no one else was doing anything like this. Everyone was stuck in the idea of web sites as portals in order to sell banner advertising space and whatnot. The idea, at the time, was completely new to the search engine world, they thought of it first, applied for the patent and received it. Overture is simply attempting to defend their market (pay-per-placement search engine advertising) in which it has become the clear leader. Overture surely feels threatened by Google's dominance in the search engine market, and is thus acting as such.
The question has also arisen as to wether or not Overture's business model is "ethical" considering when people go to a search engine, they are looking for the most relevant results. I must play devil's advocate here and defend Overture for a minute. Being that Overture provides pay-per-placement resutls, when searching on overture, you can expect that the paid results shown are somewhat relevant if you are looking for something to purchase. Few companies are willing to pay the competitive prices that Overture provides if they are not looking to make money back. An example of when I prefer to use Overture is when I am looking to buy something general. Say I'm looking to purchase a new motherboard. Searching on Overture (although I'd end up using pricewatch) gives me a good list of companies that have what I am looking for, and I can then compare prices and companies until I find one I am comfortable purchasing from.
People also bid on Overture because the results for a gives search term on MSN, Yahoo!, Aol, and others, come from Overture. Thus, by bidding on Overture, the placement you have bid upon (depending on the position, usually the top three) will show up across many other search engines that yield much more traffic and searches every day. It should also be noted that another reason many people bid on Overture is because some people just like to spend money and see a direct result of their spending. Many people don't understand that a properly optimized site will get them ranked well across all search egines, but, of course, search engine marketing is viewed, a bit, as the donkey's ass of web site development. =P
Regarding how Overture's filing against Google will turn out, I do not know. I haven't read the full details of their patent, and even if I did, I do not know enough law to form a solid enough inference on the outcome of the suit. I do, however, know how Google's AdWords Select system differs from Overture's.
Google has two advertising systems. Adwords which is clearly marked as advertising and displayed at the top of the page - you pay for a certain block of impressions for certain search phrases, much like a banner ad. AdWords Select, the advertising program in question with this case, clearly marks the listings as advertisements and displays the listings to the right of the search results. Google consistently strives to provide relevant results, and this is further seen in their AdWords Select program. This differs from Overture in that not only do people bid on the placement of an ad, but Google also factors in clickthrough percentages when listing results. From what I understand, here is an example: Your competitor bids $1.00 for their placement. You can, in turn, bid less, and if you have a large enough margin in clicthrough percentage between your ad and your competitors, your ad then has the chance be displayed above theirs. The idea is that if you have a larger enough clickthrough percentage, that your ad must be more relevant, thus Google believes it should be displayed as such, and does so.
I hope that clears some things up for everyone.
Feel free to e-mail me at ttm15@yahoo.com for other questions.
This kind of revenue-by-lawsuit MO by so many companies makes me feel like I'm trapped inside an Ayn Rand novel. Both parts of that disturb me.
Entropy gets everyone.
There was an article about Overture, I think on Slashdot, that had an interesting attack on spammers who use Overture's advertising. Go to their site overture.com and search for "bulk email" or some similar phrase like "opt-in email", and it'll give you a list of sites that are bidding some amount of money per web hit. The top three bidders for any given set of words also get advertised on several other search engines. Some spammers used to bid as much as $5 for hits, though the maximum today was down to like $2.75.
In the long run, attacks like this probably mainly result in loss of business for Overture :-), but meanwhile it's fun to have a simple method to beat up on some spammers.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Uhh, yeah. It's called META tags.
I was doing this before Overture even went into business, and I have to say it's very effective. I get a lot of feedback on my site these days. Most of it is just people asking where the naked midgets are, but a hit is a hit.
Sheesh. Some companies.
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!
This IBM you mention, this is the same IBM that got 3500 patents in 2001, bringing their total to over 34,000? That IBM?
"If he thinks he can hide and run from the United States and our allies, he's sorely mistaken." Bush on bin Laden
All right, NOW he's trolling.
include $sig;
1;
yeah, it'd be a real bitch if we all had to license the bubble sort patent!
It's been long enough. We can still shoot through floors for crying out loud.
The Yellow Pages are ordered alphabetically. No matter how much ZZZ Pizza pays the Yellow Pages, they will still be listed far after AAAA Comedy Driving School. Overture's patent is a "System and method for influencing a position on a search result list generated by a computer network search engine".
cpeterso
Are there any patent lawyers reading this? I'm interested in patenting the method of increasing sales by naming my business something that begins with multiple letter 'A's so it comes first in the phone book.
Signed John Martin,
President, AAAAmbulance Chasers Insurance Company
_______
2B1ASK1
you're all missing the point. it's funny because google does not allow advertising to influence results. ad words are not part of the results. that's one of the things that makes google so great. they're argung a bunk patent and they're going after like the one search engine in the world who is NOT infringing. ha joke funny. laugh damnit!
"We've just been outbid by Cheapo Inkjet Printer Cartridges! Do we raise our bid or fold?"
Just what we needed; day trading for search engine placement.
Google doesn't auction keywords, or at least claims not to.
Need to protect my identity from my friend but the Patent office hires people who probally couldnt get a jobs in industry as engineers. The beginning people get about 50k but are only required yet only have to complete 20% of the workload of someone whos been there 5 years or something.
When an engineer doesnt have industry experience they'll tend to make mistakes like this i think.
The best thing the patent office can do is only hire people with at least 1 year of industry experience.
I don't know if this is the reason you've been blocked out of Google search, but this is a possibility:
Some email harvesting programs use Google and other search engines to search for email addresses. If you enter "house" as the search term, the program will open several network connections to Google to retrieve all the pages that have the search term "house" somewhere on them. There are some 46 million of them at the moment according to Google. Now that the harvesting program has the URLs, it'll get those pages from the web and search for email addresses from the page they just retrieved. Voilà, you have a database of email addresses that have something to do with "house" and you can spam them to hell with mortgage offers. Isn't that beautiful? Some harvesting programs can do the same for Usenet news -- with the help of groups.google.com. It's surprising that your netblock hasn't been blocked out of that (yet).
The point is that getting those millions of hits out of Google will place quite a load on Google search. If I were a Google admin, I'd surely block the network that's causing that kind of problems, especially if the purpose of the exhaustive search is to search for email addresses.
Follow your Euro bills at EBT
The Patent Office isn't charged with ensuring that the patents are valid. Anyone who wants to contest them gets to do that. If you want the PO to ensure validity, you're going to need to give them a lot more funding than they get, since you need top-of-the-field experts in almost every domain to be hanging around.
May we never see th
People, if you want to participate, do the search yourself instead, or strip the session id first.
Say no to software patents.
I'm thinking in terms of Class action law suits.
USPTO has explained their position which is to issue the patents and let the courts sort the mess out.
I was wondering whether it is possible to file a class action law suit to bring them to their senses.
Would this work?
I'm wondering b'se I have several (valid)patentable ideas but with people patenting general & obvious ideas like this I would have to go to court to get patents which raises the bar for lone inventors like me.
The system sucks & something has to be done!
So is it worthwhile, even possible to sue USPTO to stop the stupidity?
It's days like this, where I'm almost ready to write my Senator and try and take an active role, that I look at the decisions being made and say to myself, fuck it, we're too late.
Actually, you're not too late... it's never too late to get law changed. Senators and congressmen do not need "prior art" to prove "pay me for top priotity" is not patentable because they've been doing that for decades!! That's way before the internet became common.
So there ya go.
I totaly agree, but still I am NOT going to write any simplistic script uses excess bandwidth to randomly click on banner adds till they ALL GO AWAY. (especially the ones that flash)
/. if someone did this and attacked /. spiffy new large square adds. They would not be able to sell them anymore, unless they detected such an attack and removed it from the click/count. Although I am sure if you paid a lawer enough he would figure a way to make you liable for the damages the script caused.
Think about what would happen to
This patent has already been challenged by Overture's chief competitor. FindWhat filed a lawsuit in Jan. claiming that Overture's patent is no good:
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/020124/242089_1.html
Does anyone still take the US Patent Office seriously?
Surely they are the modern equivalent of the old Roman circuses - light entertainment to take the citizens' minds off the harsh realities of daily life.
These days, any idea is patentable if you add "... on the Internet!".
Amazon: Remember your customers' billing information... on the Internet!
Overture: Give well-paying advertisers the best spots... on the Internet!
Microsoft: Upgrade software according to the vendor's recommendations... on the Internet!
Oh well. I used to have more of these but my memory isn't very good. It's amusing to construct them though. And a bit sad, because it seems to really work that way.
I hope Google wins this one. Is there some way the public can help? I wouldn't mind contributing to a legal fund, even if Google isn't "little guys".
In that case, where's my bread?
This patent bullshit has gone far enough!
This has gone past the level of absurity!
We've gotta do something about this!
Petitition congress!
Our idiot patent office is letting people patent obvious ideas right and left... someone's gotta put a stop to it.
Patents should only be for complex things which take lots of research, like coming up with a new drug. The idea of giving someone patents for obvious concepts like this is insane!
I mean what next, are they going to let people patent food recipes? I think I'll patent the goddamned chocolate chip cookie!
Actually they DO let people patent food recipies, don't they. That's why Coke's forula is a secret. They din't want the patent to run out in 20 years and have it go public.
Come on guys! I mean WTF?! This site has many of the best minds on the net reading it! Are we all completely inept when it comes to politics?!
What are they then? Expensive rubber-stampers?
In other words, if they aren't supposed to check that the patent's even valid [*], what the hell are they doing?
[*] Note: by valid I mean useful, non-obvious and innovative. I don't include whether it works or not. But that should be irrelevant because if you patent a process or machine that doesn't work, who cares? Of course the patent office now allows the patenting of vague ideas, which makes a mockery of the whole system.
Female Prison Rape in NY
There the germ of an idea here...
Maybe overture could be induced to bring suit against congress... It could be more effective than campaign reform legislation...
Rick Roehlk
Is that they give you no relevant results compared to others.
The Patent Office isn't charged with ensuring that the patents are valid.
Why bother with having a patent office at all, the applicants could just rubber stamp their own applications...
If you want the PO to ensure validity, you're going to need to give them a lot more funding than they get, since you need top-of-the-field experts in almost every domain to be hanging around.
Or there is the radical idea that the fee paid with the application is there to fund any validity checking which may be needed. You could possibly have both a non returnable fee and a deposit against friviolous or fraudulent applications.
"Pay for Placement"
So it's a patent for bribing someone to get a promotion/get into office/get an apartment/etc?
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
I will stop this ridiculous insanity once and for all by enforcing MY patent #5,163,447 on:
"A method for stopping patent infringements by suing the party committing the infringement."
That's right. I have a patent on suing over patents.
I will be demanding royalties from every jerk suing over a patent by USING my own patented process of suing infringers!
-
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
You cannot patent a mathematical algorithm, so many basic CS techniques are not patentable.
Attn: Business and Legal Affairs
Overture Services, Inc.
74 North Pasadena Avenue, 3rd Floor
Pasadena, CA 91103
Fax (626) 685-5601
Dear overture.com,
So, you can't do anything innovative or original on your own and don't have enough brainpower in your corporate hierarchy to come up with a strategy that turns a profit.
So you sue.
You pick a company that is making money and sue them on a trumped up, drug addled view of a pathetic patent that would never have been granted if the patent office employed people with an IQ higher than 67.
Or perhaps you're suing them because they won't license your technology and pervert their pure, accurate searches with the crap you spew out.
With this lawsuit, you have guaranteed that I will never use your search engine. Go ahead and change your name all you want, I still won't use you, and the sites that license your "technology" will be similarly be avoided.
I will also do everything within my power to prevent others from doing business with you, including but not limited to writing the firms that appear in your search results and making it clear to them that I will not do business with them either.
Hopefully, with enough action on the part of the consumer, you will recognize the folly of pursuing lawsuits as a business model.
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
With a website called GOTO they have to be messed up. No wonder they got a patent.
...
Patent Clerk:"Yes! Here is your patent. Just stop making me read uncommented GOTO code! Arghh
bash-2.04$
bash-2.04$yes "Don't you hate dialup connections?"| write USERNAME
Google Adwords does not in anyway affect search results listings, whereas Overture's system is totally search results based on payment. Google's paid text sponsorships are completely seperate, on the right hand side, clearly marked in various color blocks. They are CLEARLY advertising/sponsored text, and a totally seperate system from the search results, unlike Overture's system which according to which OV partner you are looking at, could be or could not be identified as paid listings within search results.
In addition, Google's Adwords selcet takes into consideration how many people actually click on the listings into the positioning, which OV does NOT. Google's system uploads text ads in nearrealtime, where Ov's requires a 3 - 5 day review by editors.
It is amazing how far a suit can go, before the court even knows what it is measuring.
I dismiss this suit out of hand, stop wasting the courts time. But then of course, I am not a judge or lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.
Bailiff, toss them all out.
"The big fear...here is that ... We wouldn't have paid listings at all."
I hope nobody gets a patent on bugs in programs. My biggest fear is that we wouldn't have bugs in programs at all.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Is that the same IBM that works on PHYSICAL SYSTEMS like nano-tech, and writing their name with individual atoms? Don't they deserve their patents for that?
All bow to his Noodliness!! His Noodle Appendage has touched me!
Oh, feel free to patent the bubble sort. Anybody? Please?
Free PC version of ChipWits at http://www.breueronline.de/klaus/chipwits/
Just what we need, a bunch of Slashdotters patenting ancient prior art ideas. Of course, we could start a little patent war complete with allies, enemies... HEY slashdot already has these, we should be able to use it for our own purposes.
I'll trade you dibs on the GUI for the dibs on the hash table, and I'll throw in batch processing.
Black and grey are both shades of white.
There are patents for "Walking while chewing gum", "Playing tennis while wearing pads", and "Amusing a cat using a laser pointer". This one doesn't surprise me a whole lot. :-)
An interesting site to read about this stuff is Patently Absurd
Ok, the "Walking while chewing gum" one is fake, but the others are real...on the second page of that link it shows a patent for determining bra size. As follows: 1) Prepare unclothed breast 2) Breast Size Measure 3) Conversion to cup size You gotta wonder about some people..
Twenties Retirement
Sorry about that...
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Suppose google decides to eliminate comcast from its indices. The data is theirs, they are under no obligation to keep their details.
... watch their traffic die out
... watch their adv. revenue falter
... watch the frivolous claim stagger
Firstly, I was pretty sure that Google *don't* take cash to rank sites higher - only for ads that run along side the results of relevant queries - that's what their site says. Anyway - the great thing about Google is that if you want to be in the first few results, don't spend "30 hours a week monitoring and improving your ranking" - just have a great site/product/service in the first place! Google tries to work in a similar way to 'word-of-mouth', right? If you've got something great, people will talk about it on forums, and other sites will link to it. Having a fantastic, no-tricks product is what pays, and Google itself is a perfect example of honest service winning the day in my opinion.