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Salon on Video Games and Free Speech
EyesWideOpen writes: "There is an article at Salon that covers a U.S. District Judge's ruling that computer games don't deserve First Amendment protection. The ruling is in response to The Interactive Digital Software Association's request for the dismissal of an ordinance that requires parental consent before children under 17 can buy or play violent or sexually explicit video games. From the Salon article: 'From his ruling, [US District Judge] Limbaugh appears to believe that no amount of contextual information, or additional narrative, in a game is enough to make it a work of art or expression worthy of the name 'free speech.'' The judge's deliberations were based in part on his review of four games: 'Fear Effect,' 'Doom,' 'Mortal Kombat' and 'Resident Evil'."
You can deny access of violent games to underage people without violating the first amendment can't you?
FoundNews.com - get paid to blog.,
Start bitching about how this means that no one will be able to buy Tetris if this is alloewd to happen below.
Michael Loves Me!
with that list I'm suprised he didn't make video games illegal.
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
Who picked the games for the court to review? Mortal Kombat and Resident Evil? How about Final Fantasy X (or just about any other RPG)? Black and White and Medal of Honor were mentioned in the review, but there are tons of games with a lot more content than Mortal Kombat.
-- Adam
Well, I guess that would explain why the infestation started in that lab. No one had enough time to get out, nor had enough time to get in there to destroy it before it got out of control. I'd think that if I had a lab that ran overly exotic and extremely dangerous experiments under the radar of the local government, I'd use a little more planning....
Move on. Nothing (new) to see here.
If this judge had reviewed, say, System Shock 2, or even Half-Life, he might have had a higher opinion of computer gaming. Heck, even Starcraft would have gone a long way towards convincing the judge that games can be as legitimate a story-telling format as any book, and should be entitled to the same rights. So where did he get the idea to review these specific games?
I'm the stranger...posting to
The Judge's first name was Rush?
Think nothing is impossible? Try slamming a revolving door.
Beyond IF, this title alone should be able to shoot down insane rulings like this one.
Belief is the currency of delusion.
That's a problem in most games out there today. It comes from two different forces duking it out during the design of the game itself, realism and playability. Like the invisible hand pushes supply and demand around in economic thought, the game developer must push the point between those two competing forces.
Every time I, or someone I know, works on a game we see those tradeoffs. Sure, you could require the character to pee after drinking, with stat drops if they hold it for too long... but that sucks away playability. Sure, you could require them to drink in the first place, but who wants to deal with finding food and water all the time? Notice how most RPG's dropped that, while that was the standard in the 80's. Most RPG's now have food be an extra health bonus, like the fighting games from the 80's.
If we want to take this to an extreme, look at death. Most games give the player 'lives', while some really do make you restore from a saved game if you die. Some games allow you to take a few bullets before you die, while others such as Rainbow Six drop you after a well-placed bullet to the head, hero or not.
So do you set up the secret underground research facility as realistic running system with all the details that not every player will appriciate, or do you scatter keys about in an unrealistic fashion to create tension and challenge for the player?
Tr011 Tr011 Tr011 S*x
Perhaps the judge merely meant/intended by law that games should not explicitly get free speech protection just because they are games. The 4 games listed are pretty thin on plot, storyline and certain types of artistry. The artistry that is shown isn't speech so much as trademarkable/copyrightable "feel" and characters.
He also might believe simply that the speech of games is irrelevant to *his case*. After all, people are free to film porn, but are not free to display it on network TV (in america) or even sell it to minors (in america).
IMO I hope this is struck down with great prejudice by higher courts, as IMO the above mentioned limiting vs minors does as much harm as help and it would be foolish to carry that to more genres.
removes your right to judge. I mean seriously. If you aren't an expert or at least very knowledgeable about literature you really don't have a right to say which books are better than others. I'm not saying that you don't have the right to an opinion and a right to voice that opinion. What I'm saying is that if you aren't knowledgeable about something, then your judgement isn't valid.
This is why we are having such trouble with laws regarding software, video games, etc. The lawyers, judges, and other people with the power to make decisions aren't knowledgeable enough to make well informed decisions. I mean you got a guy who play 4 very violent games with an extreme lack of plot and then decided games weren't art. Try getting a judge who's played games since he was 2. Someone who knows. When people who were alive before computers retire and the next generation comes into power I'm sure we wont have these stupid problems anymore, because people with power to decide will be more knowledgeable.
I would also like to see if this judge would make the same decision after playing through Final Fantasy 6 or Chrono Trigger.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
It was "Resident of Evil Creek". Get it right.
[o]_O
And he is indeed related to Rush Limbaugh. The judge is Der Fuhrer's cousin or something. He gave a lecture at this "Good Government Day" event they had in Jeff City. It was sinister and nerdy all at once, much like all lawyers.
I personally believe the judge was fair and informed. This can be seen by his
A. Wrong use of 2 of the titles
"Mortal Combat" and "Resident of Evil Creek"
B. Only looked at 4 titles.
The judge didn't play the games. He was shown video clips ( More likely to be the gory ones such as a MK Fatality ) and of the games he did see all 4 were basically the Gory ones in the industry. He didn't see Final Fantasy. He didn't see Metal of Honor. He didn't see any of the other more robust and story/plot/idealistic driven games.
This is similar to judging all movies value as Free Speech based on
Nightmare on Elm St.
Halloween
Friday the 13th
Texas Chainsaw Massacre
Anybody can see how ridiculous a judgement based on such a small set of evidence is. However, I do believe that the Gaming industry should have done a better job. Why didn't he see anything else?!? Why did he only see the "plots" of specific games and not a showing of those games themselves including cut-scenes. gameplay and the likes?
The level design, the method of expression, the ambience portrayed, the textures that make it realistic. The levels in say... Doom, are akin to sculpture. Each one is the product of creative process.
That makes it art, and therefore freely expressable.
However... limiting access to kids under 17... we already limit alcohol, cigarettes, porno mags, music, voting, etc. If anything, sometimes this is warranted. Most kids could get their parents to buy one of those games, anyway.
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
Tell that to the art team....
Every good game has an art team.
If anyone ever remembers the old choose your own adventure books they will find that video games are similar, just they happen to be more interactive with pictures and sound. They happen to be children's books which also are forms of free speach.
So does that mean if I make an interactive game/book it isn't a form of free speach, even if it just about Spot and how he can run, jump, play, mow down thousands of evil super nazis from the world Zenarkdjoijfe 13?
This kind of thing really annoys me. A ruling by a guy who has, in all likelyhood never played a video game in his life. He probably thinks that kids should all play baseball, listen to the adventures of the green hornet on the radio, and read a good book for entertainment, like kids did in his day. Except it's not his day any more and he's really pissed off.
Dont get me wrong, I enjoy playing all forms of sports, and I spend way too much money on books, but I also grew up playing video games, and I'm not going to stop. Maybe instead of banning the video games, we need to get the parents to smarten up a bit. I think if parents took a little more responsibility and interest in what their kids are doing, then a lot of these dumb problems would solve themselves. Video game makes (for the most part) clearly label their titles M for mature (just like an R rated movie), but it is up to the individual parent to decide what is right for their child, not some judge who can't understand the new mediums of technology properly.
Maybe we can finally get frogger banned now. All those cars trying to kill a poor innocent frog. No child should be exposed to that.
Hacker Media
I agree with the judgement, I mean if parents are going to let a computer raise their kids they might as well no what the kids are being raised on. And if the parents don't want to look I guess someone should force them.
Even so I think this will be about as worth while to enforce as the seat belt law.
Maybe we should judge all mediums by some of the worst representations.
Maybe movies shouldn't be protected because all of those actions thrillers just have violence.
Maybe books shouldn't be protected because all those romance novels are just softcore porn.
Maybe music shouldn't be protected because all that gangster rap just talks about killing cops.
What the hell is wrong with people. Sure there are games that have no decent content, but there are also games like black and white, sim city, etc that actually have redeeming value. I don't think most games should be banned from kids, regardless, or more precisely because of their content. If I didn't have video games to vent my frustration with when I was younger I might have vented in a far more destructive manner. Give me the violent games, god knows the sims aren't going to keep me from being frustrated with the stupidity of this judge.
- WeaselGod
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet turbines
I offer this as an example of what probably happened to him while he was playing.
qslack.com
I'd agree that most games are not speech. But come on, just because they AREN'T doesn't mean they can't be. Just the other day I was in a game store and I found a game that tells Bible stories and stuff. It's some kind of first-person-shooter or something, where the character has to make moral decisions and fight the good fight against the evil, fallen angels. You can't tell me that THAT game is not speech.
So kids can't buy or play over-17-rated games without a parent's permission?
My response: Click.
So I can't use a peice of software without first reading and agreeing to the EULA?
My response: Click.
Sure, I'll warrant I'm over 17 to get into a nudie site. Click. As it happens, I *am* over 17, but really the question becomes, *how do they know?*
I mean, that's beside the more primary question of "why should they care."
Judgements like this are a load of horse-hockey, made, ironically, in order to present a political/ethical/whateverical statement. Just like the first amendment allows us regular folk to do.
It's a question that will escalate up the ranks, probably ending up with some bullshit congressional hearing or other, in which it is decided that all people over 18 with children will be implanted with authorization chips that activate the software. It'll be part of signing the baby out of the newborn wing of the hospital - just sign this birth certificate - by the way, you may feel some initial discomfort.
Ironically, the under-17 crowd that has children, such as you might find in just about any broken-down central urban district (and, here's the scary bit, *elsewhere too*), will be utterly helpless coming from either direction. Fortunately, they don't count, and the program to discourage voting proceeds according to schedule. Activate phase 3.
And it doesn't help at all that the judge has a name like Limbaugh. Like *that's* not a dead giveaway.
Great googley-moogley.
GMFTatsujin
Since when did the creative angle have anything to do with first amendment protection? The SC has long deemed it appropriate for limits to be placed on movies, television and radio. Why not video games?
Maybe we should judge all mediums by some of the worst representations.
Maybe movies shouldn't be protected because all of those actions thrillers just have violence.
Maybe books shouldn't be protected because all those romance novels are just softcore porn.
Maybe music shouldn't be protected because all that gangster rap just talks about killing cops.
What the hell is wrong with people. Sure there are games that have no decent content, but there are also games like black and white, sim city, etc that actually have redeeming value. I don't think most games should be banned from kids, regardless, or more precisely because of their content. If I didn't have video games to vent my frustration with when I was younger I might have vented in a far more destructive manner. Give me the violent games, god knows the sims aren't going to keep me from being frustrated with the stupidity of this judge.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
So do we also think all ages should be able to watch R-rated movies?
Read all about the scandal here!
I don't understand.
How can it be considered "free speech," if it's copyrighted? I don't get how the software companies can hide behind the first amendment to produce the game, but then discard this argument after we purchase the game. If I were to say that MY rights to do what I want with the software are being infringed by THEIR copyrights, they would say that the game ISN'T free speech. Somebody explain this apparent hypocrisy to me please.
I brought this up before...
At least read the slashdot tagline!
...an ordinance that requires parental consent before children under 17 can buy or play violent or sexually explicit video games...
Final Fantasy whatever is neither violent nor sexually explicit. Neither is Black and White. Nor Myst. Nor Civilization. Nor any of the other games that were mentioned to defend "video games" as protected speech.
Doom, Mortal Kombat, and Resident Evil are famous games for their violence. And they're also all three lacking in *speech*. They're great marvels of techonlogy (for their times) and gameplay (for even now, in some ways), but they're not necessarily worthy of judicial protection.
The ruling isn't saying "all games aren't speech." It's saying "game's aren't always protected speech."
Heck, I mean--NO form of expression is always protected speech. If I slander someone in a song, I'm still civilly / criminally liable. If I write a novel that's sexually evocative, I'm still regulated as porn.
I for one and quite happy with "mature" video games being regulated as "adult content." Especially when the law rests on the permission of the parents, who in my day were the ones actually purchasing the games anyway.
"My Zaibatsu Monstrosity can even cross rivers! So far I've only hit a few puddles in the parking lot, but it's good to know that it's there. Besides, I'm a mom, not a conservationist."
It touches on gun control, child labor and other issues that companies or political action committees would rather not have pumped into the ears of teenage consumers.
Could Ford pull GTA3 off the shelves by claiming it unfairly portrays its Explorer line? Could the NRA block the release of GTA4 by complaining it doesn't like the game's portrayal of gun owners?
How far does this go? What about games like Sim City? Could the mayor of a major city sue EA for defamation of character (by teaching people that his style of city-management doesn't work)?
I fail to see how anyone could claim that something like the the Final Fantasy Series (The newer ones moreso than the original) could be seen as less artistic than film.
I think all this hooplah over video game violence is a reflection of the quality of parenting here in the USA.
"Derp de derp."
let's just be thankful he didn't review daikatana. That would have made outlaw games altogether.
Not only is there a storyline which could possibly have warranted the "art" tag but I think it would have affected the outcome of the decision alone!
Just a few seconds of drug-taking, whore-mongering and cop-slaughtering could have given it a different spin...
Judge: "Now, what are you doing there?"
Player: "Well, this is a prostitute getting in my car. See how my cash is going down, now? Once she finishes her business and gets out of the car again, I'm going to bludgeon her with a bat and take my money back. Cool, huh???"
Palaces, barricades, threats, meet promises
Well shoot, it was on-topic when the page was broken. :-(
Miko O'Sullivan
If Jessee Ventura is going to make campaign video games, then one can presume they have a political message, and are protected by first ammendment rights.
Whoops guess he doesn't count. (nor the voice of those who voted Le Pen)
Thank you, I'm here all week.
Does anyone have any contact info for the judge so we can tell him what we think?
FoundNews.com - get paid to blog.,
It is possible to make the argument that the 'plot' and 'characters' in video games are only there to sell which is really just a board game: Push the right keys in the right order at the right time, and you win.
Just because you take some free speech -- and I'm not just talking music, artwork and gore; I mean also the written word such as in interactive fiction -- and add a push-the-button interface, it does not undermine the aspects of the work that make it free speech in the first place.
Perhaps this judge would like to try playing through 'Curses.' Judge Limbaugh, can you read and write?
Keep in mind that this is the same bonehead who declared junk faxes legal.
Yep, relative of Rush Limbaugh.
Unfortunately, the behaviour of your co-editor Michael Simms means we have to browse at -1 to see the truth, as opposed to what you want us to see.
k lsdfkdfgoatsecxgoatsecxgoatsecxgoatsecxgoatsecxgoa tsecxgoatsecxsjkljsdfkjfdkjsdfaklsdfkjgoatsecxbite mejksldfkljsdfbitchkdsfkjdfsfucooookjkfsksld12goat secxvvgoatsecxgoatsecxgoatsecxgoatsecxgoatsecxgoat secx1221 etc.
Yeah, I know what you mean. They are keeping you from learing the truth of gjasdklklsdkjgkgdsllkgsdkjlgsdklgoatsecxskfdfsdkl
This has been addressed many times before in a much more apporprite manner. You are the one who needs to grow up, not Hermos or the mods.
Some games/movies are quite clearly not suitable for children. So what are parents to do? Tell their kids to stay away from those games? Explain that they are harmful at their age? Watch the kids whenever they're using a computer or going to the movies? Or trust that a shopkeeper will act responsibly and not sell stuff when it's clearly not appropriate? Rrriight. That'll work.
So what better ways are there to achieve a goal that most parents would probably agree with? (this is not pure rethorics, I am actually curious)
Seeing as how both the judges and the lawyers are complete ignorant when it comes to video games, i wonder why they didnt parade in a slew of "expert witnesses". Amatuer and proffesional game developers, reviewers at some popular game magazine, shoot, even a particularly eloquent gamer could have contributed to the case. At least they could have had an idea of what they were talking about before blindly making a decision.
I had an interesting experience at Wal-Mart the other day buying a new game. I am surprised with Wal-Mart's zero tolerance for adult lyric music and movies and yet right there in the PlayStation 2 bin i was (pleasantly) shocked that they had Grand Theft Auto 3. I picked it up and went to the checkout center and was actually made to show 2 forms of ID for my age. I mean I am 23 and I haven't been check for my age buying cigarettes for about 5 years now and was amazed that I was carded for a frickin videogame. I personally agree that there should be some kind of rating system for parents to determine what kinds of games they can buy their children and I don't know how "art" argument could possibly hold any water.
Maybe he thought that was a Dawsons Creek spin-off and figured it had no business getting first amendment rights protecting it.
"Resident on Evil Creek. It is where the zombies are all hopped up on X and whine about how much no one understands them while they bite through your jugular. Sort of a teen-angst/survival-horror combo?"
For the record, despite the substantial quality of the articles in playboy, it is none the less illegal to sell it to a minor. Now, I think this judge is being a little silly saying that video games are not expression, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the ordinance is a problem.
When forbidding access to things that are protected by the first amendment, like Playboy, there are certain requirements about it being the least burdensome approach to restriction, etc. If the court believes that there is a relevant social interest in preventing minor access to violent video games, then all this ruling determines is how they are allowed to go about preventing this access.
Personally I think that if this gets appealed it will get thrown back in the judge's face. He'll have to accept that it is a first amendment protected form of expression. Then he'll likely proceed to rule that the ban is okay anyhow, and then the court can review the issues of it being least restrictive, etc.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Not playing a video game is like reading a book based on a movie. You only get the idea and it's not the same thing, sometimes radically different.
Video gamimg is the first automated warm medium, where the player (or audience) is part of the feedback that creates the show. Movies, TV, and playing music on a CD are cold mediums, where the audience has no/little effect on the entertainment. (though some would argue that the audience is the entertainment at plays/concerts) Story telling (esp. with small children), books, stand up comics ( esp. in small clubs) are warm, where the audience takes part in the performance.
Video gaming being as young as it is, and having such a high cost to entry for new games has created a culture where everyone goes for the largest market, throwing aside everything but the almighty dollar. Even the Salon article admints that the Sims almost didn't get made, which goes to show how single minded these game publishers are. $$$$$
So far, I've seem many comments about people comparing these games to RPGs, but what about the true classics, like Pac-Man, Tetris, Galaga, Bust-a-Move, etc. These games are like poetry compared to the monstrous volumes that are required to encompass most RPGs. Games like Golden Axe where the whole point is to destroy the tyrant who has usurped the power from the king in the region.
Some of the best examples of games and conveyance of ideas come from old Sierra games, especially the Lesiure Suit Larry series. That series was nothing but satire, pure and simple. The game was solving the most insane puzzles to advance the almost non-existant plot, but the items you got and the way they were described picked on a multitude of facets of american culture.
Unfortunatly, most games teach that might = right and you must be the strongest most powerful (Insert stereotype here) in the world. And that concludes their message. It's the games like Ultima, B&W, every Sim game ever that show us new ways of thinking, since in many cases we must change the way we think about a problem in order to solve it in the world of the game.
'Fear Effect,' 'Doom,' 'Mortal Kombat' and 'Resident Evil' Why why why do we have to keep on hearing judgements, news articles, politicians etc constantly quote and use as example old computer games such as the above. Have they not heard of the PS2, X-Box or Gamecube ?! Not to mention the latest advances in PC gameing. I saw pictures of Doom 2 in an article of similar subject matter only a couple of months ago, how many years has that been out for?! Its like the differance between a childs story book and a novel, these judges constantly undermine the computer games industry by hearing as evidence works that were created years before the judgement they make is passed. I know what im sending that judge for christmas (not! it would go to a home that would not appreciate it) But I can bet the judge had fun sitting in his office shooting away at the imps! Before the judgement made he/she probably shouted "Finish Him!" and then struck down the hammer expecting some lightning to strike :P
Chess.
The time for a counterstrike is now.
Supreme LAAAAAAAAAN Party!
Buy a Nintendo DS Lite
Kids under 17 are not supposed to see an R rated film with out a parent or guardian's permission. Personnaly, I have no problem with a county preventing minors from buying violent video games. That much is fair, the problem is he fact that the judge went out of his way to say that video games are not art and can not convey any thing work knowing. That is what is pissing every one off, which, IMHO, they should be rightfully pissed off about. Is the law constitutional, more then likely. Did his judge have the authority to set a precedence that says that video games are not free speech and should not be treated as such, absolutely not.
I know you were joking but still, there are games with "something to say". Unfortunately I can only think of 1 right now but maybe someone can reply with more.
Deus ex - remember the part where the Chinese guy is comparing the Chinese political system to the American one? The whole game is actually very political and anti-government. I could see a game like that being censored for it's politcal message.
Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
This reminds me of the Communications Decency Act of 96...
Of all the judges who voted, something like 92% did't even have net access!!!
For those that forgot how bad the CDA was,
here's a refresher~
If it had passed it would have...
"Allow(ed) providers to screen "offensive" materials. Removes provider liability under Prodigy decision. Has unknown effect on private email. (Was amended to telecommunications reform bill (HR 1555) on August 4.)
Oh...and mandatory "V-Chips" (provided by one of the judges' good buddys' company no doubt)
[T]he Court simply did not find the 'extensive plot and character development' referred to by the plaintiffs in the games it viewed
Someone should donate Everquest so the Judge can play it. I bet in three months he will be out of courts. Wearing black rags with a sword in his hands, and shouting "l00t!".
Than we can talk if it doesn't help to develop a character...
Buy a Nintendo DS Lite
This is, I believe, because new industries don't own any legislative assets like senators or judges, by the very virtue of their newness.
Those games sucked! (except maybe Doom, that's still fun to play.)
Honestly, come on! Who's willing to play those games anymore? Hell, nobody was EVER willing to play fear effect. It sucked bad.
Mortal Combat was a shitty rip-off of every other 2d fighting game ever made - they just had enough money and time to create something decently popular. I've played all the mortal kombat games, and I'll pick Samurai Shodown or King of Fighters over them any day. Resident Evil? Hah, the original was crap. It was just simply a big enough budget to popularize the genre started by Alone in the Dark. The GC remake of Resident Evil is actually an excellent game, I hear, but who really wants to play the ORIGINAL resident evil these days? Playing the original Alone in the Dark is tolerable, due to the nostalgia factor, but the original RE? not really.
Just more proof of how ignorant the american society is becoming... Not only are we putting out loads of trite crap, but entire industries are being judged based on that crap. Not good. Games like 'Fear Effect' and 'Mortal Kombat' make it harder for REAL game developers to make good games. I'd like to see more games like Final Fantasy 7 (even though I didn't particularly like it, it WAS good), Starcraft (told a decent story along with great gameplay), and Rez (just totally unique). You can only re-use the same idea so many times before it's dead.
using namespace slashdot;
troll::post();
I was under the apparently mistaken impression that /. users could find anything but I don't see any contact info for judge steven limbaugh sr.
I am beginning to lose faith in you guys...
FoundNews.com - get paid to blog.,
Anyway, this law (the video games thing), along with past issues of "censorship" in the form of government-coerced industry self-policing got me thinking.
The logic seems to be this:
Some material is harmful to minors (I can buy that)
Custodians of said minors are not competant enough to police the material themselves (I cannot accept this)
Legislate morality into the industry, rather than trust parents (I think this simply bites)
It got me thinking... If a parent (an "adult", mind you) can't be trusted to read a lyric, listen to an album, or watch a movie to determine if the material is right for their own kids (and this is easy stuff -- "yup, there's 4 scenes containing bush in Porky's, so Little Johnny can't rent it"), how the bloody hell can these same adults be expected to abide by the terms of a 20-page legalese-ridden EULA!!!
I mean, there's gotta be some precedent here, right? If a legal adult can't be trusted to interpret the dumbed-down lyrics/music/visuals of modern-day mass media, there's just no way in hell they can handle a EULA! Release the attack litigators!
I say if we adults are deemed too dumb to spot a tit in a movie or hear a naughty word in Prince's latest single, then other laws should reflect that. They shouldn't have it both ways.
And I'd much rather have the labeling laws (and similar nonsense) repealed than to have new laws passed to protect us from EULA's.
Back on topic, I have kids, and I know there's some disturbing stuff out there in theaters, in music, and on the internet. No, I'd rather my 6-year-old daughter not see porn pics on the internet or my 3-year-old son watch some guy get his spine ripped out in a video game, but, dammit, all these restrictions on content diminish what I can access now and what they can access as adults. This is what I ultimately object to. Because labels make it easy for suppliers to throttle the supply (i.e., Wal Mart will not carry "Parental Advisory" labeled music), which makes the content providers (artists) either change their creations or they're not accessible with equal footing to those who do. And that, my friends, is where this slippery slope goes. I don't think there's any real happy ground in between.
Umm... < looks at post> sorry for the rant...
Method of processing duck feet
Questions:
1. What is the relation between "free speech" and "copyright"? If a game is not free speech, can it still be copyrighted? According to this, "any original expression that is fixed in a tangible form" can be copyrighted.
2. Could a saved game-- which maybe would be considered a "performance" -- be considered free speech? I mean, if I play some 3d shooting game and kill only the politicians, isn't the saved game a kind of performance art?
3. What about hacked ROM games? Some of these must fall under "parody", no?
4. Surely games written by recognized literary greats, such as Douglas Adam's "Beaurocracy" is not only legitimate expression but social satire?
5. How do you draw the line between straight fiction, a choose-your-own-adventure book, and an Infocom interactive adventure?
6. If you printed out an Infocom game's text replacing the user's typed instructions with "Turn to page 7 to do xxxx" and published it as a book, would the video game suddenly become speech?
Maybe Dave Touretsky needs to set up another gallery.
W
-------------------
This is my SIG. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
remember the (incredible) game for PSX Xenogears? The entire game was a commentary on religion and beliefs. Xenogears could have been a book or a movie .
Video Games Not Protected Form of Speech
Posted by Hemos on Thursday April 25, @03:21PM
Somebody explain this apparent hypocrisy to me please.
There's a difference between copyright and free speech. In fact, they're about as related as capitalism and matricarchy.
"Free Speech" is the idea that the government cannot made a law keeping you from communicating something. There are a few limits on it ("you can't shout fire in a crowded theather"), but absent a very good reason, the government can't stop you from communicating whatever you want.
(From "this sucks" to "let's be communist" to "all commies must die.")
"Copyright" is a different beast altogether. It's the government recognizing the right of someone who works to create a thing that's very easily copied (like a book or a poem) to gain fiscal benefit from people using this thing. It's the government outlining how long the creator of a protected work gets total control over who gets to make copies. (When that time's up, it goes into the "public doman," which anyone can make copies of.)
This part is the core of copyright protection, and it's what Microsoft & the rest offer you in exchange for you agreeing to their EULA.
The hariy part about copyright comes when you take only a little bit of someone's work, add your own into it, and make a new work. This is what's called a "derivitive work," and it's the legal basis behind the GPL. Since you're making a copy of PART of someone's work, you're breaking the copyright law ("infringement.") But since someone made something new, THEY have a copyright on it to. In this situation, both parties need to agree to do anything with teh second work--or they need to go to a judge, who decides if a work is or is not "derivitive."
An exception to this is "Fair Use," which is a few specific exceptions (Journalism, Academia, and Parody) wherin the infringement isn't punishable.
SO, let's say that I write a novel. (I am, btw. Just about done, too.) My novel is Copyrighted. Because of Free Speech, the government cannot come down and lock me in jail because the main characters rebel against their government and break the law. My copyright means that if you want you very own copy of my novel, you need to convince me (ordinarilly by buying it from a publiher) to let you do it.
If you like my fantasy world a lot, and you write your own "fanfic", you need my permission to do anything at all with it, including post it on the web, and especially including selling your own copies. You've infringed by copying my setting.
If you decide to write a review of my novel for your school paper (or local paper), you can quote a small bit of it for journalistic use and I can't say a darn thing, because of Fair Use. Unless you quote an entire chapter every week, in which case I can probably get a judge to rule that you're not really being journalistic.
One more thing--I'm not a lawyer. Please, please, PLEASE don't do anything and then come back and say "well, this guy on Slashdot said it was OK." IANAL, and dispensing legal advice when you're not can get you busted. (I was merely sharing my understanding of the law.)
After carefully reviewing the finances of Michael Jordan, Oprah Winfrey, Clarence Thomas and William "The Fresh Prince of the River" Smith, I have come to the conclusion that income is not in any way correlated with race.
Ok here go all my karma points, at least they'll be well-burned. This is getting ridiculous -- I'm all for free speech but does no one read these articles? This is about selling games like Doom and Resident Evil to kids without parental supervision. Even "protected" media like film still require some sort of parental guidance. I adore violent games and think cursing and shooting are damn-right funny. But that's MY OPINION! I see no reason to say "damn the parents, kids know better" when it comes to violence, sex, murder, war, and other situations glorified by games. NO RESPONSIBLE GAMER would argue otherwise. So you play your violent games and I'll play my violent games but don't be such holier-than-thou dicks as to suggest parents shouldn't be allowed to decide if their children should or shouldn't play games that depict graphic murder. Ignorant jerks...
for and reviewed Doom III. Now that's gonna be some art baby!
Deus Ex had some of the best dialogue of any game ever made.
I have been involved in local youth-rights related issues in the past, some pertaining to local businesses barring individuals under a certain age from entering their stores without an adult, or after certain hours (well before curfew). Section Section 37.2302 of the Elliot-Larsen Civil Rights Act of 1976, states:
Sec. 302. Except where permitted by law, a person shall not: (a) Deny an individual the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of a place of public accommodation or public service because of religion, race, color, national origin, age, sex, or marital status.
Being that rating systems like the ESRB and MPAA are not government-mandated, and that many movie theaters and department stores have barred individuals under 17 from viewing/purchasing "M" rated games or viewing "R" rated movies, it is arguable that the practice is illegal in Michigan. The only exception I could see to this rule is if it was a private club. I do know other states have similar laws concerning age, but Michigan does have a model policy that has proven effective in challenging local businesses. I have pondered the possibility of challenging movie theaters and retail stores, many of which voluntarially enacted policies barring minors based on the content ratings, but it obviously would cause some strong opposition and fighting teams of corporate lawyers.
dumbass, the reason you don't get viruses in netscape is because it is too primitive, and if you get them in ie you were just to moronic to change your security settings...dumbass uneducated mother fucking redneck!
The Truth: There is no string:)
/. really isn't a jive joint.
The ruling isn't saying "all games aren't speech." It's saying "game's aren't always protected speech."
No, he's saying that games, categorically, aren't protected speech. That is, any individual game can not be considered protected speech.
I for one and quite happy with "mature" video games being regulated as "adult content." Especially when the law rests on the permission of the parents, who in my day were the ones actually purchasing the games anyway.
Honestly I wouldn't mind it either if the ESRB had a little more common sense when rating games -- the standards for games are vastly more restrictive than films. Try saying "shit" a few times in a game or "fuck" even once and see if you don't get an M rating. Try showing a flash of nudity and not get an M. Try having anyone die in anything resembling a real manner and not get an M. Any one of those things would get you a PG-13 in a movie.
When a game like Thief, which actively discourages violence in a number of ways, has fairly inexplicit depictions of violence (certainly no worse than PG-13 movies, probably no worse than many PGs), no language, and no sexual material receives the harsest non-pr0n rating available (M), something's wrong. To lump Thief in with something like Soldier of Fortune (or films like Fight Club) is shameful.
I don't mind having ratings, but the overly broad M rating that gets all the bad press seriously needs some subdivision.
The author claims the same thing must be applied to Hollywood gore fests. Does it means that he agrees that the games are gory and sexually explicit and unsuitable for children ?
Just because the courts missed the other media doesn't mean that games should be left alone too. The gaming lobby should come up with more serious arguments than this.
With graphics and rendering getting advanced, the violence and sex in the games is only going to increase. I agree with the author that games are after all not frivolous and can be a good medium for social commentary.
I think his sample was biased and he took an arrogant stance that he can identify what constitutes speech.
Personally, I fail to see the big deal about junk faxes. It seems like almost an outdated issue.
For starters, the fax machine itself is obsolete technology. It keeps getting used today only because scanners aren't standard equipment with PCs, and people are too lazy to learn how to scan a document and send it via email. At the very least, fax machines should only be used to send data. Received documents should be handled by computer. Why waste paper printing out everything that's sent to you, plus deal with the privacy risks? (Anyone can walk by, pick up the fax and read it? At least your email goes directly to your own inbox.)
Even these facts notwithstanding, if you're going to outlaw mass sending of faxes, it would seem you'd also have to outlaw all "cold calling" telemarketing. It's essentially the same thing, other than in one case it's done by voice, and in the other, by screeching tones. I don't think we're really ready to take that step.
According to the article, "A tape with excerpts of these games was ... submitted to the court by the county [of St. Louis] as part of the record," Lowenstein says. The IDSA legal team countered the tape with scripts to video games, he says, that emphasized plot and story lines aimed at proving that games qualified as speech. But, with the ... 7th Circuit Court's favorable decision ..., "It was frankly inconceivable that this issue was in question." (Messages left with Limbaugh's office, asking if his honor had actually played any of these games, or if he had considered reviewing other games, were not returned by press time.) Since he misspelled two of the games' names, it's quite possible he did nothing other than watch the video provided.
In other words, the judge chose to simply ignore a large amount of the evidence. This, of course, makes it very likely that the decision will be quickly overturned; and it's very likely that the judge knew that when he drafted his decision.
So, why did he make the ruling? He's simply grandstanding. After all, he's appointed for life, and nobody's about to mount a recall election just because he said that little kiddies can't play guts-n-gore games...
penny arcade summarized it nicely last week
m l
http://www.penny-arcade.com/view2002-04-26rl.ht
Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Judge Limbaugh simply stepped around the hurdle by declaring that video games aren't "speech".
Like any good tech-head I hate faxes too but, sadly, there are certain legal docs that *need* to be faxed for legal reasons (IANAL, this is just what I've been told by my [maybe mis-informed] lawyer). A faxed signiture is legal, a scanned and email signiture is not. Don't ask me why, I just work here. ;)
I have also seen some press releases on this that cite the list of games as:
'Fear Effect,' 'Doom,' 'Mortal Combat' and 'The Resident Of Evil Creek'.
I don't know if this is a failure of the reporting media, or an example of the court obviously not caring enough to get it right. Does anyone else know something about this?
Common sense is what tells us that the world is flat
Seriously, could you watch every movie and show, listen to every song, play through every game, and generally monitor every bit of media that pervades your childrens life? It's easy now, but wait until they are older and Barney goes out of style. (Not that I would let a child watch that shit). Of course not.
:)
Example: Let's say Spider-Man had no rating - how would you know that it's ok to take an 8 year old to see it? Would you go first, watch it, decide it's ok, and then go again with your kid? That's time and money wasted when the movie is more than appropriate for children, by any reasonable standard.
I agree with you - Wal Mart and Blockbuster and anyone else that filters products based on labels are wrong, but is it the fault of the rating system? I don't shop in either place anymore (for more reasons than censorship).
The problem I have is when a label is too brief. I like movie ratings as they give the reason for the rating (ie/ language, mild nudity, gory violence, cartoon violence, Saddam with a dildo, etc). That allows someone to make a reasonable decision about what their children should watch. Look at CD labels - explicit lyrics - I would let a 12 year old listen to a song that contains a few swear words (especially if it's saying something vaguely intelligent ala Rage Against the Machine), but not music that suggests skull-fucking a dead prostitute is an enjoyable pastime. The label doesn't tell me what is so explicit about the lyrics, and my standards probably differ from the standards they use.
If anything, all labels should do is inform the parent of the potentially offensive content of the media and stop the child from buying it on his or her own in extreme cases. As long as it is strictly a guide, I don't see the problem.
If anything, ratings should be intentionally descriptive - This CD contains lyrics that propose that God is hypocritical and may offend SUV driving suburbanite scum that cling to their vague notions of spirituality out of fear and ignorance - or something like that
Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
Man, that sucks. I would never live in a place like that. Seriously though, do you think those movies would have made it into the theatres in your area if they hadn't been rated? Or would a bunch of angry mom's be outside protesting it when some twelve year old went home and asked his mom why the one guy couldn't shag Jessie Spano when she was on the rag?
:)
In any case, that movie didn't last too long in the city I lived in at the time (Edmonton, Alberta, Canada) - not because of the rating, but because it sucked (and we love movies that make fun of Americans, so we often forgive such poorly done satire)
Ironically enough, Showgirls came out when I was in high school and a bunch of friends (teenagers, 17 years old) saw it in the theatre. Maybe you should move up here to Canada, where softcore porn starring childrens show actors gets the respect it deserves and we allow our vulnerable teenagers to view it
Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
I should mention my stance, I guess. Yes video games have freedom of expression and are most definatly works of art (although I still could see otherwise for Mortal Kombat), I support limiting minors from violent games. I thought that State of Emergency was fun, but if I had a 10 year, I would NOT want him to be able to walk into a store and just buy it.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
No, YOU dumbass. I say worm I mean worm like tequitya, not worm like virus. You stupid for jumping gun! I use Linux, you stupid Win95 person! Try real browser (Mozilla) instead of wal-mart (opps, I mean Microshft) browser IE!
Mike Cho
MOD PARENT DOWN!!!
http://rosecity.net/rush/rushtour.html. It makes a lot more sense now, doesn't it? :)
"most games are not speech"
Artistic expression is a protected form of speech here in the USA. I'm sure the artists, level designers, etc. that produced some of your "most games" would love to hear your opinion. Really.
For starters, the fax machine itself is obsolete technology.
Nah, name one other document transmission technology (other than courier) that lawyers can use.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
I'm sorry, for a minute there I thought you had typed "Xenugears", and was about to wonder if the game had any pictures of L. Ron. Such a thing would probably be declared a "clear and present danger".
In Soviet Russia, Jesus asks: "What Would You Do?"
Holds true here as well, I'd say. As does Barlow's response -
(Emphasis mine!)
We want some answers and all that we get
Some kind of shit about a terrorist threat
- Ministry
the Soldier of Fortune 2 Video?
http://www.runubi.com/sof2/sof2.zip
Personally its kind of cool to do things that I'll never be able to do in real life. That said, get this video and it depicts the most real death animations ive ever seen. The best part is the game play is good too.
Goodbye Counter-strike.
do you know how frustrating it is to post the same opinion before you (twice actually), and not have anyone read it?
I brought this up before...
and above in this very thread also
The moderation system is just so frustrating these days...- FIGHTING WORDS
- LIBEL
- COMMERCIAL SPEECH
- OBSCENITY
And that's it. There are a few games that get caught under obsenity, which was defined in the Miller Vs. California case as something that:(1) the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would conclude that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to prurient interests;
(2) it depicts sexually explicit conduct, specifically defined by law, in a patently offensive manner; and
(3) it lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value.
Here is a good source of information about the First Amendment.
In order to qualify for copyright, doesn't a work have to be considered free speach in some form?
Does this mean:
I can now burn and sell all the copies of Warcraft III I want?
BnetD can not be sued for stealing code since it isn't speach?
This has some rather HUGE implications that I would like examined!
Kill one youre a murdered, kill a million youre a hero.
Games like Civilisation, Homeworld, Starcraft, C&C engage in a wholesale slaughter of entire nations.
Genocide.
Somehow these are considered OK.
Running around with a shottie blowing away badies is considered 'violent'.
Anyone else see a problem with that?
-- Vlad (posting anonymously to preserve my precious karma)
... you need to read fridays Penny Arcade [penny-arcade.com].
Its about time someone started thinking of the prior to zombie
infestation time" on resident evil games (or any kind of game
that requires odd keys and combinations to move around). Think
about it. The lab in which the infestation starts happens to
be the one in the deepest part of the installation that requires
finding keys scattered all over the base, and, if you worked
in that lab, you'd have to leave for work 2 hours early to get
all the keys to get in. Honestly, what kind of scientist would
put up with such an overly secure work environment? What if
something goes wrong? Get out? Hardly!!
Well, I guess that would explain why the infestation started
in that lab. No one had enough time to get out, nor had enough
time to get in there to destroy it before it got out of control.
I'd think that if I had a lab that ran overly exotic and extremely
dangerous experiments under the radar of the local government,
I'd use a little more planning....
BANNER Section: Games and Demos (6) ...
NAME
banner - print large banner on printer
SYNOPSIS
/usr/games/banner [ -wn ] message
DESCRIPTION
Banner prints a large, high quality banner on the standard output. If the message is omitted, it prompts for and reads one line of its standard input. If -w is given, the output is scrunched down from a width of 132 to n , suitable for a narrow terminal. If n is omitted, it defaults to 8
I just modded you up, but I had to use 'underrated' because 'karma whore' isn't among the allowed moderations. :(
The only way the typical /.er can pick up a chick is with a forklift. -- AC
How significant is the ruling? The U.S. District Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit has already ruled, in a separate case involving a similar ordinance, that games are indeed speech. According to Lee Tien, senior staff attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, Limbaugh's ruling doesn't possess sufficient legal kung fu to take down the higher court's decision.
"Technically," says Tien, "no other court is bound by [Limbaugh's] decision, unlike the decision by the 7th Circuit, which binds many district courts in that circuit."
At least for now. "But if it is appealed and upheld," adds Tien, "then you'll have a decision of equal weight to [the 7th Circuit's ruling]."
So basically Limbaugh made a ruling that went contrary to a higher court's ruling. It applies only to his district, and will only acquire any serious legal weight if the appeal is upheld.
I sincerely hope that the IDSA learns from this initial bout with Limbaugh and brings to bear many of the arguments you all have been putting up here on Slashdot, when they appeal.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Actually, Maxis (makers of SimCity, Earth, etc., etc., etc., Robosport, The Sims itself I think) originally used the term "software toy". Since AFAIK SimCity was the first highly successful game that allowed you to play noncompetetively (not even competing against a computer), I think Maxis deserves to have their term used.
The mention of B&W is noteworthy... Peter Molyneaux, originally of Bullfrog Productions, Ltd., has ALWAYS gone with a bit of the software toy flavor. In both Dungeon Keepers 1 and 2 you were able to continue playing after you'd beaten a level, just for fun and play, with no goals or enemies to deal with. I whiled away many happy hours in college trying to see how much gold I could mine (my DK1 record - 6.2 million. Top that!)
-Kasreyn
Kasreyn: Cheerfully playing the part of Devil's Advocate to hairtrigger
The issue here is not artistic expression or game publishers' freedom of speech. The publisher is not being prevented in any way from publishing the games. The law is just trying to regulate access by minors, and guess what, that's not an issue of the rights of the minors either, it's an issue of the rights of their parents.
Kids really have very few legal rights, but they also have very few legal responsibilities. They also have very few people in their lives who see them as anything other than faucets plugged into bank accounts. Along with feeding, clothing and sheltering their kids, part of a parent's job is to shield them from candy-waving marketers who know that kids with low self-esteem will buy lots more stuff. Until you get to a certain age your parents are supposed to outsmart these PhD psychologists, usually with little help from the government.
The cutoff point between childhood and adulthood may be ridiculously arbitrary and inappropriate in some cases, but at some point you suddenly do get the basic human rights our founding fathers fought for, like lawsuits, credit card debt, and unrestricted access to cigarettes and video games. Until then your parents get to call the shots. There's nothing draconian about it, it's just their job.
hehehe, let him have it ... fscking self-righteous bullshit ... im sick of it ... when will these morons realise that we dont hate christianity because its something that we dont understand or dont appreciate, but because we can see it for the control mechanism bullshit that it is, see all the contradictions and inconsistencies it brings up, and see how it was never based on actual events (read some fucking OTHER books xians, you will find the truth about your bullshit nice and quick) ... and we just get plain sick and tired of people shoving their naivety and arrogance in our faces like a fucking badge of honour. YOU ARE WRONG ... if you can see it then fine, just keep your stupidity to yourself FFS ... most of us with enough brains to do so have looked into it ourselves and can see it for the crap it is, you dont need to point out how narrow minded and stupid you are, the fact that you follow christianity makes it self evident ...
Since you proclaimed your christianity and specifically asked if it was a problem, I will reply on-topic that I do have a problem with that. Christianity as an organized force has been responsible for as much murder, rape and general carnage as Hitler, Mao, you name the bad guy. Yes, I do have a problem with your fucking religion.
How about I make a game featuring strong pornographic content, movie-clips, etc. Really nasty stuff. Is this Judge saying he has no powers to stop Minors buying this game?
i too am vegitarian
i request that you post more meals sans meat
"I hereby declare any text written on euro banknotes to not be free speech."
Whenever a new media comes out, is it the job of judges to decide if its usage is free speech? I think not.
Any media can be used to express one's opinion, therefore no media can be generally excluded from free speech protection.
I honestly ask myself what kind of legal system this is where a district judge can walk in and declare such basic things.
aye, righto! i'm the one who posted "fuck you!" btw.
not only do they wear their naivety and arrogance like a badge of honour, they take pride it in it when people point it out to them, using it as another opportunity to assure themselves of their "faith".
they like to draw comparisons of the faith they have, with the faith that normal foolish mortals like us have in stuff like computers and whatnot. they just don't see that yes, what we normal foolish mortals have in our computers and other gadgets we don't fully understand is faith, but theirs is blind faith. faith that has no roots in real proof. and btw to all christians, trying to draw evidence from your precious bibles as proof of your religion is self defeating. its like a snake eating its own tail. it explains nothing, gets nowhere, and just plain contradicts itself. just keep your bullshit and wonderful storybook to yourselves.
for all you know, the bible was a bestselling work of fiction in its time, and has now been degraded to a catalyst for your pagan religion. (yes, its a "religion", not a "relationship with god" as some of you like to insist. i also refuse to spell "god" with caps, same way i refuse to spell "microsoft" with the S as a dollar sign. its fucking pathetic and lame) i can just see a bunch of people in the distant future with about as much intellect as all of you digging up a copy of star wars and worshipping the jedi. sheesh, get a life, assholes.
as always, I FUCK YOU ALL OF YOU NOT!!!!
There is a lot of talk going around saying that games are protected under the right of free speech. I think this is valid but the US constitution also garantees the right to assemble peacefully. What does this mean for communities that are forming around MMRPGs? If a certain on-line gaming community got on the government's bad side then what is to stop them for outlawing their means of gathering?
Darned good thing that judge didn't see Grand Theft Auto 3. :)
-Evan
This guy will say video games are not covered by free speech, but he would defend someone's right to post pictures of crap in a toilet.
I've never actually understood how some people decide what is speech or art, and what isn't. Exactly where do you draw the line? I've seen some romance novels(which anybody can buy) that were worse than some of the letters to Penthouse(which you have to be 18 or even 21 depending on where you live). If you ask me, the visuals in any of the newer games completely out does some guys ability to take a paint enema and spray it on canvas.
While I don't think that it is a good thing for little kids to get their hands on explicit material, I think that the way that they are deciding what is good and what is bad needs to be looked at a bit more closely.
Xaotik Designs
That is a shame because MoHaa was a really good game. I think there is a mod out that adds blood, but if you are really that into blood then perhaps you should see some one.
That most of the people that claim to be Christains are not really Christains. The Roman Catholic church itself isn't even Christain neither are most of the people from any other church. Christainity has been corrupted by "churches" since Christ himself left.
While I haven't been reading comics since Krazy Kat, it seemed to me that once upon a time comics were violent and simple, kind of like video games. In an effort to get parents not so worried about thier kids reading them, they established the "Comic Book Code Authority" or something (I'm doing this all from memory, bear with me!) and it basically was huge self imposed censorship board. And Wal-mart was not going to sell your comic without the stamp of approval they would give.
While we don't have all that, you can still understand the point: comics, at one point (and even now) were considered debase and not "art". Now, no one can deny that some comics are incredible works of art (finding examples are left as an exercise for the reader, because they no doubt will not be the same examples as mine) although there are still comics getting in trouble for being "obscene".
Personally, I think video games are going to follow a similar path. I can point at "Zork" and say "art!" or if you say that's not a video game, then I point at "Battlegirl" (awesome game for the mac) or "Escape Velocity Overdrive" and say "art!"
Remember, kiddies, send your spare bills to the Comic Book Legal Defense fund, and when the Video Game Legal Defense fund comes into existance, let me know. Some poor kid who makes a nifty-cool game in his basement is going to get sued for offending sensibilities and causing violence in the wrong town.
Is that anything like Cease and Desist?
I don't find "extensive plot and character development" in modern art, but if a judge ruled that it wasn't free speach he'd be off the bench faster than you could say "It's Art!".
Overall, it's a moving composition of violence and death, signifying and attesting to the warrior spirit and the fight for freedom (Doom). Sounds like artistic (first amendment) expression to me.
Let's just be honest and say the judge has lost it, and it's time he retired.
use Bielefeld.pm
... then does that mean that copyright does not apply? I don't see how you can have it both ways.
I did a brief google search and I did not find any evidence that the movie ratings are reinforced by laws. Can anyone show me that the policy of not letting minors into R rated movies is anything but a self inforced policy? I certainly can't and would rally like some clarification on this.
Additionally, since my subission of this was rejected, let me say that the ramifications of this videogames aren't free speech has already spread to the national level.
According to his web site, on May 2, Congressman Joe Baca (California) introduced H.R. 4645, The Protect Children from Video Game Sex and Violence Act of 2002, would create penalties for those who sell at retail or rent "violent" video games to a minor. The full text of the bill including co-sponsors can be found here. It is interesting to note that almost all of the cosponsors are from California and Texas. Perhaps the most chilling aspect of this is that they referenced the video games aren't free speech ruling as one of their reasons.http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
I'll make no bones about Christianity supporting war. War is a horrible, nasty thing--and sometimes, it's appropriate.
For example, the only 100% sure way to get someone to stop their crimes is to kill them. The only way to stop a rapist is to make it very, very unpleasant for them. War is just the use of this on a scale when you have no higher temporal power to appeal to (and, still, the UN doens't count.)
Oh, wait--you said "organized force." Or, more aptly, the Church. Read some of my other posts--I repsect the Church for doing good works, but any body that says "I am right" is going to suffer the Istarian fault to some degree.
That includes the Catholics, the Presbeterians (my wife's one of 'em), and the Free Software Foundation.
and the trth is that this moronic AC has never touched windows..lol..it takes 30 secs to configure ie and outlook to avoid all this nasty stuff(open them both, go into the configuration, click security, turn of self-executing scripts), whereas netscape and all the other linux apps i have seen for browsing and mail do not even have the option(and yes it is usful, imagine being a sysadmin w/ over 200 machines, rather than going to every machine or writing a program to install updates, just write small scripts that execute exes and mail them to everyone).
The Truth: There is no string:)