Xbox Price Drops to $200

ProfBooty writes: "Just two days after rival Sony Corp. cut prices on the PlayStation 2, Microsoft has announced they are cutting Xbox pricing by 33% to $200. Nintendo still has no plans to cut pricing on the Gamecube. Now is definitely a good time to be a gamer with all 3 next-gen systems at $200. Too bad i just bought a Playstation 2 yesterday." I'd like to know if anyone has succeeded in porting a Free operating system to the Xbox.

Comments

Cost Question

[Carbonite]

What are the current production costs for the PS2, Xbox and Gamecube?

Which companies will be making money ate the reduced prices and which will be losing on each sale?

Re:Cost Question

[morhoj]

The most definately lose on the price of the actual system, but all of that money is re-couped in game licensing. Or, in the case of M$FT, the chance for monopolizing your TV too :)

Re:Cost Question

[scott1853]

I can't remember what site I read it on, but it sounds like Sony can now make a profit on their boxes due to better manufacturing processes.

Re:Cost Question

[sammy baby]

The X-Box is definitely losing money on each sale. I don't have any hard numbers, but I'd be very surprised if they were even breaking even under the original pricing scheme.

I read an article somewhere that said that Michael Dell, upon hearing Microsoft's offer to build X-Boxes for them, essentially laughed it off. "So, let me get this straight: you want me to build these boxes and sell them at a loss? And make up the difference in software - which I don't sell?" Does anyone else have a reference for this?

Re:Cost Question

[deft]

at the initial retail price of $299, Microsoft has been losing anywhere between $76 and $105 on every Xbox sold.

thus, they are now loosing from $176 to $205 bucks each box!

Re:Cost Question

[MrFredBloggs]

Best reason to get one yet! Add linux development/support, convert $200 to £'s properly (ie dont just switch the symbols) and maybe i`ll take it a bit more seriously!

Re:Cost Question

[nat5an]

It was in Wired when the XBOX was the cover story I believe. I believe his quote was "I don't want to be in the razor business if I can't get in on the blades." Or something.

The story is here http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.11/flex.html? pg=1. It also discusses how much Microsoft was initially losing on the boxes ($100 - $110 I believe).

Re:Cost Question

[ryanr]

There's no reason to think that they would be losing the same amount of money of each box now. Production costs will drop as they improve the process, parts get cheaper, etc..

It's common for clone makers when doing a school contract for a couple of years to price the machines at a loss up front. The first several months that they sell them will be at a loss. However, they know that the prices will quickly catch up by then, and they'll be making a nice profit.

Re:Cost Question

[km790816]

That's assuming that productions costs are the same now as they were in September/October.

I doubt it. With both Intel and Nvidia moving well beyond the technology in the XBox (and I forgot to mention the hard drive manufacturer) I'm sure the cost of materials and the production cost have gone down.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure they are still losing money.

Re:Cost Question

[birder]

This may not be the case. What is the price of the xbox that stores pay vs the markup MSRP of $200 or $300. Does Wallmart pay $150 for an xbox and sell it for $300?

If MS drops the msrp price $100 why should they absorb the $100 and not a part of that only?

Re:Cost Question

[binaryDigit]

Keep in mind that while other component prices have decreased, memory has sharply increased in this time frame (and keep in mind that all the xbox's sold at launch were obviously produced before the launch, some even months before, so memory was even cheaper). So while I'm sure it's cheaper, it's probably not as cheap as you might think. Good thing for M$ that they didn't put an lcd in the thing, then they'd really be hosed.

Re:Cost Question

[dtfarmer]

The X-Box is definitely losing money on each sale

Microsoft loses money on each Xbox sold.... therefore, they really aren't losing much money now, are they? (at least not in Japan or Europe)

Re:Cost Question

[NeMon'ess]

Prices have been $50 since about 1990. The first 16megabit cartriges were expensive to make, or at least used as a justification for charging fifty bucks. Prices have stabilized, though. Sure DVDs are cheaper to make than carts, but development costs are much higher. A game that took eighteen months to make in 1990 would now take two years. I hope you bought a few computer games instead of pirating every single one just because you could. The music analogy is simple, support the artists you can afford to. Otherwise you're just a scummy pirate enjoying himself at the expense of others.

Re:Cost Question

[binaryDigit]

Keep in mind that M$ needs the retailers way more than they need M$. Retailers don't make a lot on the consoles themselves, and if M$ tries to eat into their already slim margins by foisting part of the price cut on to them, then they could balk and simply use the shelf space for PS2, which they know will sell. The absolute last thing that M$ needs now (since sales are under estimates and there is a perception that they are on their heels) is to have any of the major retailers drop the xbox. This would hugely undermine confidence in the platform, and in this market, perception is everything!

M$ will absorb the loss, because they must. They have more than enough in the warchest to fund the thing for as long as they want to. That's the "beauty" of M$, with such huge resources behind them, they have play in the sandbox until _they_ decide it's time to get out (anyone here old enough to remember the early days of cdrom and who championed the format for years until everyone else caught up?)

Re:Cost Question

[scowling]

When a manufacturer drops the MSRP, that entails a drop in the wholesale price.

In the software trade, resellers get a credit back from the manufacturer for what they have on hand -- or sometimes even what they've sold in the last month or so.

I don't see how it would be any different with console manufacturers. I guarantee that Electronics Boutique is sending inventory numbers to Sony and Microsoft and waiting for their sales reps to stop by to verify them.

Re:Cost Question

[56ker]

Will they be cutting the price in Europe and Japan even more too? After cutting the price already once a further cut may just end up making people think they're getting desperate though!

Re:Cost Question

[Hoser McMoose]

I don't know that Microsoft's costs would have changed all that much.

Both Intel and nVidia sold MS some fairly low-production-cost chips. In the case of nVidia, they don't even make these chips, so they've got to pay whatever TSMC or UMC charge, and given that these were relatively low cost chips to begin with, the cost that TSMC/UMC charges isn't going to decrease too much. Even if the price does decrease, nVidia may decide to keep the extra profits for themselves, and keep charging MS the same amount. MS is pretty much locked in to using nVidia chips for the lifetime of the X-Box, so nVidia isn't really forced to lower their prices.

As for Intel, they were producing a dirt-cheap chip (a low speed Celeron processors built on a .18um fab line). They could (and possibly already have) decreased costs easily by switching to a .13um fab line, but that's only going to be a marginal decrease in costs given that it was a pretty cheap chip to produce in the first place. Further cost cutting measures are going to help less and less. To top it off, while the original chip was a run-of-the-mill Celeron die, which Intel was making in HUGE quantities, soon this chip will be a low-volume specialty part as Intel moves all it's Celerons first to a .13um fab process (they may or may not be able to use a standard .13um Celeron die for the X-Box, I dunno), and now they're moving to a completely different architecture (Celeron's will become semi-castrated P4s).

Same thing pretty much goes for the hard drive and DVD drive. These producets were all fairly low-cost models ot begin with, and cost cutting just isn't going to trim too much off the bottom line. What's more, in all of these cases MS is outsourcing production of each part to different OEMs, each of whom are going to look for a piece of the pie. I'd even hazard a guess that many of these OEMs took the contract with virtually no margins in the hope that this would turn into a very large volume deal, which it hasn't.

The one area that they can probably really cut costs down is memory. The memory that they're using is DDR400 memory, which used to be a pretty rare specialty part only for graphics cards, but now is becoming a LOT more commonplace and would probably have decreased in price significantly.

So, long story short, production costs probably have decreased somewhat since the initial release, but I doubt that they've dropped very significantly. My guess is that the drop in production cost is quite a bit less then this new drop in retail price.

Re:Cost Question

[macinslak]

Ahhhhhh, Linux on XBox. That would most certainly be the kiss of death for that platform. It would make me quite happy to know that Bill is losing $100 every time me or one of my 10^6 closest Linux pals gets a new PC/DVD player/PVR. And that's not even counting the people that would use it as a PC after someone figures out how to make it boot regular Windows.

Re:Cost Question

[clontzman]

Memory costs have increased somewhat, but the Xbox only has 64MB of RAM. 64MB RAM chips are still less than $10, so I doubt that's hurt them at all.

Bottom line is, in the quantities they're buying, costs of manufacture should be substantially less than eight months ago.

Re:Cost Question

[ivan256]

Loosing $150 per console requires the sale of somewhere between 15 and 20 games at full price to break even. It'll be a long time before a significant number of Xbox owners have that many games, and I'll bet most of them never will.

Re:Cost Question

[ShavenYak]

I remember buying games as a kid for my Atari for $20 or less.

I remember $25-30 being average. Now add the effects of 20 years of inflation. $50 is actually reasonable. Now figure it out as a percentage of your weekly income. In the early 80's my weekly income was about $10. It's substantially more now.

Re:Cost Question

[Dr. Spork]

This sounds wrong. The first result of the price drop will be a buying spree for people who have lurked on the sidelines, undecided about which game system to buy. I'm quite certain that Xbox sales will be more than 33% faster after this price cut, so the retailers gain from this.

The fact Sony dropped PS2 prices simultaneously is the only thing that stole the fire from this announcement. Still, if Microsoft stayed at $300, Xboxes would certainly be put on the back shelf and considered a has-been that no sane person would buy on impulse, given the huge exhibit in the front of the store featuring $199 PS2s.

Re:Cost Question

[binaryDigit]

The first result of the price drop will be a buying spree for people who have lurked on the sidelines, undecided about which game system to buy

Right, but how is their choice any easier now than before? You still have to decide between the $199 xbox or $199 ps2. I could see though that since you're paying $100 less, your less concerned about making the "wrong" decision since the penalty has dropped by $200 (purchase xbox, hate xbox, purchase ps2, not counting money from selling xbox of course). I don't think I agree with the sales increasing by that margin though, a spike yes, 33%, I don't know. But I definitely agree that M$ would be hosed had they left the price alone and ps2 went to $199.

Which brings up an interesting point about Sony, why didn't they drop prices earlier? Had they done the price drop say a month before xmas, could tbey have slaughtered xbox, lost more money short term, but gained in the long term. Or, are they thinking that M$ has deep enough pockets that they would have simply just lost money while M$ would not have backed down anyway?

This is really turning into a very interesting horse race, even more so than previous console wars since the players are HUGE (not just gaming companies) and have tons of resources and even more corp. pride.

Re:Cost Question

[symbolic]

What's the difference between what M$$$ is doing and a non-US company that dumps their products at below cost? The legislators scream when non-US companies do this, but seem to offer nothing more than a wink and a handshake when a company like M$ does it. Granted, Sony and Nintendo are both non-US companies, but they provide competition, and with respect to M$$$, short of any real punitive action for its monopolistic practices, competition is the next best thing.

In the short run, consumers are getting a good deal when MS sells the Xbox for less than it costs to produce. In the long run, however, if it leads to the demise of competitive alternatives, everyone loses (except M$$$ of course).

Re:Cost Question

[cancrman]

Sony didn't need to drop prices earlier. They were selling pretty much every PS2 they could get out into the retail system around xmas. Remember that there was a shortage of xboxes then too. Quite frequently shoppers who wanted a video game system for the holiday had a choice between a PS2 and a PS2 because of the relative scarcity of xbox and gamecube units.

Re:Cost Question

[denshi]

You probably read it here:

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/04/06/133725 0&mode=thread&tid=127

And to develop your argument, I point out that 'better manufacturing processes' here means "fit everything onto a single chip". The importance of that cannot be understated -- moving from a multi-chip board to a single-chip design means you no longer have to design, build, and test all the wire traces between chips, which is the large repeatable cost per unit (chips are essentially free once designed). And the single-chip integration means the yield comes way up, as you have only one point of fab failure, as opposed to n chips and a connecting board....and yield is *everything* in electronics.

A basic history of electronics demonstrates, repeatedly, how process changes like the above makes and breaks market share. For example, C&T, after IBM released the PC, figured out how to condense the 13 chips that ran the motherboard into 1 (the 'chipset'). As a result, C&T could build IBM PC boards cheaper than even IBM, and lo and behold, the PC clone market was born.

The only funny thing here is that Sony didn't drop the price sooner. They can probably make PS2s for $40 now; the DVD Consortium licensing might be one of the largest costs in the machine.

Re:Cost Question

[jerky]

The MS issue here is that they have presumed too much in their decision to take on Sony, whose cash reserves make MSes look like a child's savings account.

I just looked up the profiles of SNE (Sony) and MSFT (Microsoft) on the Yahoo finance site. Sony reports $6.6B in cash, Microsoft reports $38B in cash. In other words, Microsoft has almost 6 times as much cash as Sony -- $31 billion (billion!) more.

Re:Cost Question

[karnal]

You also have to look at assets (although, generally the more liquid a company is, the better...) as well, if you are speaking of the wealth of a company (or a person, for that matter.)

Now, I'm not trying to be smart-alecky, since I don't know their holdings either. But the assets for each company are probably vastly different.

Re:Cost Question

[martyn s]

Did you know that those original figures included the fact that the Xbox division was paying the OS division of Microsoft almost 100 dollars for use of the Windows kernel? Don't believe everything you read.

Re:Cost Question

[DarkZero]

If MS drops the msrp price $100 why should they absorb the $100 and not a part of that only?

The Dreamcast tried that and received a big, loud "Fuck you" from retailers. Expecting retailers to absorb a financial hit in addition to the one created by the X-Box's poor sales is an insult, as well as a perceived sign that the X-Box is on the same death row that the Dreamcast was on when it did the same thing. The entire idea does nothing but lessen sales to retailers and undermine the confidence that the consumers and the press have in the system.

Re:Cost Question

[dunstan]

Depends entirely on how recoup of the development costs is loaded into the pricing model. The actual physical cost to build is probably under $100 (but I'm prepared to be corrected). So improving volume really does drive down the unit "cost".

Essentially the declared cost to build each unit can be massaged to be whatever you want it to be.

Dunstan

Re:Cost Question

[Dr. Spork]

My point still stands. They will sell twice as $200 Xboxes than $300 ones. That means more revenue for the store.

Re:Cost Question

[ShavenYak]

The difference is, that a video game is not just hardware, it's software or intellectual property also. Perhaps a better analogy would be to compare the price of video games to the price of movies or CD's, which have increased faster than inflation since the early '80s.

Also, another poster mentioned that the old Atari carts were programmed by only one guy, so they should have been cheaper. This is true, but we also have to keep in mind that the game programming world of 1980 was a lot different than now. That one guy had a hell of a lot of work to do, and it wasn't point-and-click.

I just figure the greater cost of the artwork and music on today's games balances out the much lower cost of production, and I think games are still relatively speaking as good a deal now as back then. Of course, now that I'm working for my money, I'm a lot less likely to spend it on a game, so while it's the same deal, my perception of the value has changed a bit.

Wonder who shot first?

[Matey-O]

Did Sony drop prices due to the Xbox rumor (which has been out for a few weeks now) or vica versa?

(Oh yeah, and let the bitching about crummy games, ugly console, and hamfisted controllers commence!)

Re:Wonder who shot first?

[CynicTheHedgehog]

According to Penny Arcade, Sony accelerated their price drop plans leaving Microsoft with no choice but to follow suit. This is a real kick to the groin for Microsoft, whose consoles haven't been doing as well as they thought and cost more to produce. Sony's probably recouped their initial losses, but I doubt Microsoft has.

Yay Sony, I guess.

Now is definatly a good time ...

[dbretton]

Now is definatly a good time to be a ...

Spellchecker?

who dropped first the price first? not really sony

[deft]

its also worth noting that sony did drop their prices first, but only in response to information that microsoft would be announcing a price drop at E3 later this week.

microsoft dropped their price this week to match sony's pre-emptive drop, to minimize the advantage they would have through this press and buying cycle.

Still waiting for game price competition

[WillSeattle]

While all three box manufacturers are stuck at $199 USD (while Japan, the EU, and Canada sell them for less) - one wonders when the game price competition will start?

My son said that two kids at school are waiting to buy xBox games when the price drops below $40 USD, since they have to use their own allowance money.

By my calculations, MSFT has to sell 10 games at $50 USD to break even on the price subsidy of the xBox. Nintendo still has a profit on both box and games, and Sony is just at breakeven due to manufacturing efficiencies on the 2.5 yo PS2 with clear profit on the games.

-

Re:Still waiting for game price competition

[deft]

While all three box manufacturers are stuck at $199 USD (while Japan, the EU, and Canada sell them for less) - one wonders when the game price competition will start?

yes, sony is considering an price drop, while microsoft is relying on the strength of its game library to allow it to sell games at the current price.

From an msnbc report:
While Sony Computer Entertainment of America President Kaz Hirai said his company would consider lowering prices on the games it publishes from $49.99, O'Rourke said Microsoft has no plans in that regard.
"Great games are what gamers want and they're willing to pay for those," he said.

Re:Still waiting for game price competition

[Artifex]

Sony's been rereleasing some of their flagship games at $20. Ironically for your situation, these are all titles that appeal more to older kids or adults, like Final Fantasy X or GT3.
However, this should increase the downward pricing pressure on used game resellers. Unfortunately for Sony, this is also going to delay sales of new releases, as people are going to be more likely to fill in their libraries with the older titles, and wait for the markdowns they are led to expect will happen from now on.
So... good news ahead for consumers, not-so-good news ahead for vendors.

This says it all right here

[Tebriel]

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2002-5- 15&res=l

amount of x-box losses

[deft]

at the initial retail price of $299, Microsoft has been losing anywhere between $76 and $105 on every Xbox sold.

thus, they are now loosing from $176 to $205 bucks each box!

Re:amount of x-box losses

[Boone^]

But production costs may have changed since the first original estimate. loss per box is something that these companies hold close to their chest.

Xbox Linux

[Bob9113]

The Xbox Linux Project is currently working to port Linux to the Xbox. It appears that the primary hurdle is getting past the hardware based authorization system, which does not allow unapproved software to run.

Re:Xbox Linux

[Bob9113]

I pulled the trigger on the submit too quick - here's some more good info:
Quick overview of an ideal use for the machine.

Only $199 a pop and every unit I buy costs Microsoft money? Most excellant! How long till they begin firing volleys of lawyers at The Xbox Linux Project? Any bets on which 4 letter law starting with "DM" and ending with "CA" they'll invoke?

Re:Xbox Linux

[bob_jordan]

Surely the primary hurdle is getting microsoft to sell you an Xbox minus OS for less then $199.

Bob.

Re:Xbox Linux

[linzeal]

Wait, wait, are you telling the readers of slashdot that microsoft actually made something secure?

Re:Xbox Linux

[sharkey]

primary hurdle is getting past the hardware based authorization system

Huh. I would have thought the primary hurdle would have been getting the Green Screen of Death right, so it would look like a factory X-Box sitting in a Lawyers-R-Us kiosk.

Re:Xbox Linux

[Artifex]

I don't understand how the DMCA applies to running free software on any machine. Please clarify? If you're talking about getting around the encryption in the box, I think that can only be applied if the effect is getting access to content.

Re:Xbox Linux

[Bob9113]

I do not know that I can convince myself that the following is a valid argument, but all that Microsoft has to do is convince the Xbox Linux Project team that it is sufficiently plausible on the surface to keep a judge from throwing it out on first site (IE: that they would have to defend themselves). With that in mind, here goes:

On second thought, I don't think I will post my argument. IANAL, I am not an expert on the DMCA, there are probably a dozen people here who could poke numerous holes in my argument, and many more who could produce a similar or better argument - but still - it is sufficiently compelling that it would intimidate me. I think I would rather not post it publicly, as it would crush me if it wound up being used. Feel free to contact me at the above email address (rot13 means rotate each letter 13 spaces through the alphabet, wrapping from z to a), tell me a little about who you are and what you do and maybe point me to some of your Free work if you are genuinely interested.

Again, I don't really believe that my argument is earth-shattering, or even better than what any first year law student could present, but I can see little upside in posting it here, and it would destroy me if someone used it.

Re:Xbox Linux

[klui]

I'm surprised nobody has added what has been mentioned in prior XBox stories here. People who want to see the XBox go under shouldn't rush out and buy them because Microsoft is losing money; rather, they should not buy it. If enough people purchase XBoxes, the product may reach critical mass that probably will reduce its production costs even more. Critical mass will also create the mindset of the XBox is successful, which will create more legitimate sales. It doesn't matter if most of these machines aren't used for native games--the statistics will spin to say that XBox is successful.

Re:Xbox Linux

[taniwha]

If enough people purchase XBoxes, the product may reach critical mass that probably will reduce its production costs even more

I design hardware (and software) for a living - there's no way M$ will get their production costs down on the current xbox hardware (BTW check out the gamecube to see people who have a clue about integration). Their biz plan depends on making money back on their cut of the titles they are selling - every box you buy and don't buy software for hurts M$'s bottom line - this is SOP in the game console world.

Of course M$ is a very big company so as long as the non-gamer sales of xboxes is a few % they probably don't care, but if it goes up to say 50% (people building farms ... I'd love to load up that linux/verilog farm of xboxes for chip design) M$ have a problem on the order of the various cheapo internet terminal people (Idreama?) who's business model involved giving hardware away cheaply and making it back on the back end with services and didn't anticipate a large part of their sales going to linux hackers

I'd like to know if ...

[Darth Yoshi]

I'd like to know if anyone has succeeded in porting a Free operating system to the Xbox.

Someone has to break the encryption on the DVDs first or make a mod chip that lets you boot unencrypted CDs. Hasn't happened yet, but it's only a matter of time.

Then you have the problem of adding a keyboard and mouse to the Xbox. But that should be too hard.

But aside from the bragging rights, who cares.

Re:I'd like to know if ...

[Sentry21]

Someone has to break the encryption on the DVDs first or make a mod chip that lets you boot unencrypted CDs. Hasn't happened yet, but it's only a matter of time.

Someone else linked to copyxbox.com, which itself has links to such places as xboxmods.co.uk, which appear to prove you wrong (not that I'd think you'd mind).

Yay.

--Dan

Re:What?

[jerrytcow]

Not to troll - but, What the hell purpose would that serve? Give Micr$oft more money?

Because for $200 it would be a nice machine. 733 MHz P3, 300 MHz geforce (geforce3 I think), 100 baseT, DDR RAM, 8 gig HD, DVD drive.

Re:What?

[Marx_Mrvelous]

I don't know if you realize this, but MS loses at least $200 per unit that they sell. So, porting say, Linux to it and use it as a desktop, you just cost MS $200. Bad troll!

Re:What?

[inburito]

Microsoft is losing money on each XBox made hoping to recoup it in game licensing. By buying one of these and using with linux exclusively you effectively take away money from microsoft. Then again they have some 40 billion in bank..

Re:What?

[strags]

On the contrary. Articles have been written regarding the viability of the XBox as a server. Since they're so cheap, you could (perhaps) install BSD/Linux and use them as a web farm.

Since MS is making a loss on each box sold (they expect to make up the difference in sales of games), this, if anything, would be a damaging blow to MS.

40 billion in the bank

[Donut]

Amidst all of the discussions about how much money MS will lose on this, y'all might want to remember this discussion and ponder whether or not they can afford it.

Donut

Re:40 billion in the bank

[Lumpy]

Ok, let's do a little bit of education...

Microsoft has 40 billion in the bank not because they make good products, not because people love throwing money at them, and NOT because they will fund non-money-making projects.

you get big $$$ by making good investments, and sound business decisions like cutting the cord on ultimate TV because it doesnt sell, Webtv because it doesnt sell, and if the Xbox doesn't make them $$$ in a hurry... it also will die. It's sound business to make dead and bury anything that is a drain on your companies bottom line. The companies that doent use their heads to control expenses and profits?? They end up as the rest of the dot-bombs... horrible failures because they were poorly run. (YES PEOPLE, 99.997% of all business failure is due to the moron at the steering wheel of it... dont believe me? then you're one of those morons that drove a company into the ground.)

Yes microsoft will throw the Xbox overboard if it doesnt meet the required projection models. the price drop is an attempt to adjust the projection model.

Re:40 billion in the bank

[Rupert]

How much money does Internet Explorer make? That seems to have been around for a while, despite costing millions in development and generating zero revenue.

Re:40 billion in the bank

[Rupert]

If you look at it that way, MS dropped UTV too soon. They should have held in there until the MPAA et al sued Replay and Tivo into oblivion.

Re:40 billion in the bank

[Kris_J]

From Segabase, regarding the Sega Saturn:

"From 1993 (year of greatest profit) to 1997, Sega had gone from a net yearly profit of about US$230 million (1993) to a net loss of about US$389 million (1997). This means that Sega had lost about US$620 million in five years, or about 1/5th of the company's entire net worth back in 1993. Sega would lose another US$450 million for fiscal year 1998, pushing that composite loss to US$1.07 billion - or about 1/3rd the company's net worth back in 1993, when it was at the height of its success. For those of you outside the United States., that's about ¥81.6 trillion in Japanese currency or 1.14 thousand million euros in the European common currency. "

So a series of bad decisions about gaming consoles in a three-player marketplace lost you US$1 billion over 6 years in the mid-ninties. Today, Microsoft can problably manage twice the loss in half the time if it makes enough mistakes of the same magnitude.

Nintendo and Toys'R'Us

[FortKnox]

Quick FYI - Toys 'r' us is giving the consumer back their $100 if they bought an XBox (or PS2) within 30 days of the price drop.

Also, when do you expect Nintendo to drop their prices? If the N-Cube was $100-$150, I'd pick one up in a heartbeat...

Re:Nintendo and Toys'R'Us

[jnewmano]

Ha, and if they didnt let you do this you would have angry customers returning their $300 xboxes and playstations. Most retail stores do have at least a 30 day return policy and most employees will be fairly lenient out to 45 days, at least where I work at a large nationwide retail store.

So not only would you have people returning out of the box merchandise they would continue to walk into the store and purchase a brand new console at the discounted cost. Nothing better than having a dozen opened consoles that you'll have to take the hassle to send back to the manufacture.
Overall it is just good business practice, if you're shopping at a place that wont just give you the money within 30 days you ought to be shopping somewhere else.

Re:Nintendo and Toys'R'Us

[Robotech_Master]

In my experience, most retail places will adjust prices if they go down within thirty days. Circuit City will adjust them by 110% of the difference if it goes down, or if you find someone offering it cheaper.

Re:Nintendo and Toys'R'Us

[alexhmit01]

Expect a Nintendo price drop shortly. Nintendo has stated that they would drop prices if Sony dropped to $200. Sony has dropped to $200. Now, nothing requires Nintendo to make good on their threat, but harming their credibility hurts them in future threats (Game theory 101).

My personal feeling is that Nintendo will drop prices in Sept./October at the latest. They need to have their price edge for the next holiday season. Dropping now doesn't give them the impace of a holiday price drop, and they aren't really ready to push the Gamecube until they have a Mario game out.

Even without a price drop, I'd expect a $200 bundle of Gamecube/Mario Sunshine or something similar.

Re:Free OSes on the X Box

[scott1853]

If they do have authentication, I don't think it could be easily built into silicon, or at least wouldn't be worthwhile or architecturally correct to do so. If it's in there, then it's just in the stripped down OS that's running the box, which could be easily modified or simply erased.

Where did you buy it?

[Wind_Walker]

Too bad i just bought a Playstation 2 yesterday

If you bought it at Toys 'R Us, you can get back $100 if you kept your receipt and bought it within 30 days.

I think it's a great move by Toys 'R Us to keep people happy.

As for Nintendo, they're going to drop their prices at E3, I guarantee it. They stated back in April that if Sony dropped their price, Nintendo would follow suit and drop their price as well. I'm predicting a price drop down to $150 or $125. But, if they really wanted to make a splash, Nintendo would release a combo package of the Gameboy Advance, Gamecube, and the link cable that goes between them for $200 (a feasable price).

It won't matter, though. Nintendo is going to 0wn this E3, and this whole year. With new games coming out for all these franchises...

• Super Mario Sunshine
• Legend of Zelda
• Metroid Prime
• Star Fox Adventures

...as well as newcomers like Resident Evil 0 and Eternal Darkness for the "mature" ones out there, this will be the year of Nintendo.

Re:Where did you buy it?

[srvivn21]

Gee. Read Penny Arcade much?

And I quote:

It was said that we'd see [Nintendo GameCubes] at around the one-fifty mark, but who knows if they'll be satisfied with a fifty dollar difference between themselves and their competitors, which cuts their prior advantage in half. You know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see 'Cubes sell at one-fifty or one-seventy-five, and include a GameBoy Advance with that little cable thingy that hooks them together. I mean, I'm just talking. I have no idea if something like that would even be feasible, but it seems like a fantastic way to differentiate themselves.

Perhaps it was just a good idea that multiple people came up with simultaniously. Perhaps "Tycho" stole your idea. Who am I to say?

Porting a free OS

[ehiris]

I'd like to know if anyone has succeeded in porting a Free operating system to the Xbox"

No. Life's short, play more.

Re:Some Console Thoughts

[NorthDude]

Im soooooooo sick of people saying that GC is kiddy and crap.

And I'm so sick of people's post wich are so kiddy and crap...
Sorry, but your comment was sounding like YOU are 5 years old.
"My console is better then yours. No it's mine, NO IT'S MINE! bouhouuhouuu... SHUTUP! bouhouuhouuu"


Yes, I meant to flame. But if you want to be taken seriously, post objectives comments and try to talk intelligently. People don't give a dawm about what flame war you had with your friend at school. By the way, you said he was arrogant, but so you were. Sorry for being rude, I had to say it.

XBox Hacked (and Linux)

[nherc]

I submitted this info days ago... but there are at least 3 mod chip makers who have just released chips to open up the xbox. The mod chips allow unsigned code to run off of any media dvd-r,dvd-rw,cd-r,cd-rw.

More xbox mod chip info.

This will (very) soon lead to a xbox linux distro.

Re:XBox Hacked (and Linux)

[n6mod]

So here's a thought.

The unmodified Xbox can't boot unsigned code. (insert handwave over detils here)

What is the Developer agreement like? Could an official XBox developer publish a title, complete with paying their tax to Micros~1, that was nothing more than a TFTP boot loader?

-Z

Losing money never hurt Bill

[b.foster]

It is a testament to the arrogance and sheer power of the Microsoft Corporation that lowering the X-Box price (and thus, losing any semblance of profit they would ever make on the device) will hardly make a dent in their bottom line.

Let's take a trip down memory lane and think about all of the other money-losing ventures that the pundits thought would be the death of Microsoft:

• Microsoft Bob. An absolutely horrible idea with an even worse execution. M$ spent millions developing and promoting it, and didn't sell more than a handful of copies.
• Internet Exploder. Originally intended to be sold at a profit, the IE group has cost Microsoft tens of millions of dollars in development and support costs. What they have created is a money pit crafted from insecure, non-modular spaghetti code. Many observers (such as ESR) expected IE to implode under its own weight around the release of version 4.0, but it never happened.
• UltimateTV. Microsoft's lame attempt to make a Tivo and sell consumers a crappy version of the Tivo service at the same high monthly price as Tivo somehow didn't pan out. Go figure.
• Mac support. As it stands, Microsoft has not recouped its development costs on any release of Office for the Mac. This should not come as much of a surprise, as they offer steep bulk/site discounts to educational institutions on these products.

As you can see from the above examples, Microsoft's sole goal is to dominate the computer industry by creating products that lose vast sums of money, but "hook" the consumer into their services and upgrades. This is why we need more than Linux and OpenOffice to compete against them; we need government action. We're already beating them in the marketplace, but that doesn't matter when they have infinitely deep pockets from which to draw funding.

And that, my friends, is why Sony and Nintendo have a formidable enemy in Microsoft. Neither company has the cash reserves to compete with Microsoft on such an unlevel playing field, and neither one seems likely to survive in the video game arena for long without help from Uncle Sam.

Re:Losing money never hurt Bill

[AJWM]

Actually it's starting to.

If MSFT loses too much money in one area (say, subsidizing XBox sales), they have to cover it with either increased revenues from one of their cash cows (like MS Office) or by playing accounting games with the cash reserves they have on hand, so as to meet quarterly revenue targets.

They're being (or were, don't know the current status) investigated by SEC for playing accounting games with cash reserves, so they're less likely to do that, and their cash cows are running into (some, but growing) competition from the likes of Star/Open Office, etc, etc.

The thing is, even though they've got a ton of cash on hand and could probably subsidize X Box sales from now until doomsday, if their quartely revenues don't show sufficient growth (and they've been hard-pressed to do that, lately), investors will start to bail and the stock price will drop. This in turn discourages investors further, makes employee stock options worthless so they'll demand higher salaries, and so on in a downward spiral.

Bill himself no doubt has enough stashed away in other investments that he'll never really hurt in that sense -- except that he really, really hates to lose.

Re:Losing money never hurt Bill

[IronTek]

I think you're wrong. First, to keep my cred, I don't like Microsoft and I'm a Linux user. However, I hate ignorant people that spout of incorrect assumptions without thought of what they're speaking of even more than I hate Microsoft.

Microsoft Bob: While it was a horrible failure as a product, it did teach Microsoft much about human computer interaction, what their customers want, and how to market products better. End the end, it was probably a pretty cheap "failure."

Internet Explorer: Probably saved Microsoft's ass. Had they not given it away, and made the user not have a choice whether or not to have it, they could have lost ground on the desktop as well as on the internet. They would not be the company they are today if it weren't for a free IE. Further, IE is not under danger of an implosion. It's not that horrible of a browser...while I prefer Mozilla, IE does feature stability in key areas that I wish Mozillla would (and it will...eventually)

Ultimate TV: This was a premature release and not well thought out, no doubt...but it will pave the way for their takeover of the home entertainment center when the XBox 2 (or whatever) combines the XBox with UltimateTV. The product itself may be a failure, but the next incarnation of the XBox would not have been/will not be possible without the work done on Ultimate TV

Mac Support: Not only have they made money on the Mac (what have you been smoking), but they're the largest seller of applications to Mac users! Further, at least up until the last version of Office for the Mac, programs like Excel and Word used the same core as the PC version, so the development costs consisted of wraping up the engines that drive the programs to work with the Mac.

Now shutup, go get a helmet, and hope that other companies out there can keep them in check.

Re:Losing money never hurt Bill

[merlin_jim]

I have a quick comment amount Microsoft giving away stuff for cheap: Purposefully selling a product at a loss is not illegal. Using a monopoly to shut out other markets IS... so, selling XBoxes at a low price (or even free) is not illegal, neither is giving away Internet Explorer.

Now, if Microsoft were selling XBoxes or giving them away, and they were engineered so that a TV that has an XBox connected to it cannot also have a PS2 or Gamecube or console system Y connected to it at the same time, that would be illegal. Or if Microsoft made, say, televisions instead of Operating Systems and engineered their TVs to only work (well) with Xboxes, that also would be illegal.

That said, I think that it definitely counts as unfair market practices, just not under the scope of current law. But I don't think government subsidies of the gaming industry is the answer...

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think thats it. Maybe changing the law so that using money gained from a monopoly to establish a monopoly in another market is illegal... something along those lines...

Re:Losing money never hurt Bill

[lysurgon]

Go forth and compete. Stop jerking off to porn and reading your little comic books, how about working 100 hours a week on what you think the market wants -- Microsoft won't prevent you from taking out a loan, running an ad campaign, and shipping a better product, so why aren't you doing it?

No, that's where you're wrong. If you were actually to compete with M$ on any of their many playing fields, you would inevitbly face some of the anti-competative business practices which the company has already been convicted of implementing. Extortion-like pricing, custom-crufted code and underground whisper campaigns are only a few of their dirty tricks.

I'm all for free enterprise and entrepeneurialism. In fact that's why I dislike M$, because they discourage these things. But if you don't have any checks and/or balances, two bad things occur:

1) Only that which profits will survive. This is an ok (though not great) way to run a business, but it's no way to run a society. The maxim that "everyone in pursuit of their self-interest generates the best common good" has been roundly disprooved in history. This is because all people are not created economically equal, and hence many people's self-interest trumps that of others for highly arbitrary reasons. Furthermore, there are a great many things that a society should have that should not be profit motivated. Roads are a good example. The interstate highway system makes no money, but without this vital infrastructure commerce would fail. Defence is another example. You don't want your army going out to the highest bidder. This is why citizens collectivize to mutually provide funds (aka taxes) so that these social institutions can be run in absence of profit motivation.

2) Without checks and regulations on a market, you're likely to have a highly unstable situation. Die-hard lesse faire advocates will tell you that things will eventually even out, and this is true, but it would take many generations for a stable global economy to emerge (if it ever did) from the chaos of an unregulated market.

Look, anti-trust law was instituted for a couple of good reasons. On the one hand, it prevents monopoly companies from abusing consumers (e.g. selling tainted meat or fixing the price of oil). It keep's them honest. Secondly, it forces them to innovate, since they cannot retain market dominance by controling the market. A monopoly market occurs when one player controls the entire game. Therefore it make a lot more sense to have a player who is (at least in principle) working in the best interest of citizens, aka the government, in control, and let this player make sure everyone plays fair. We have a teacher watching the kids play at recess, and the teacher steps in to tell bullies to play nice.

The truth is that right now M$ is more economically powerful than you, I, or perhaps even the entire aggrigated slashdot community. Ergo, should they decide to focus their wrath on me for whatever reason, I'd like someone to be there to keep them off me.

In the end, the fatal flaw of free market idealism is the incontrovertable fact that the most important elements of life bear only a tangential relationship to the profit motive.

Re:Losing money never hurt Bill

[dada21]

"Big Oil" was never broken up by government -- they were broken up by their own shortsightedness. The regulations that government instituded to try to control Big Oil had actually helped their competitors take over the reins, and in fact, the companies that fell would have fallen regardless of "anti-trust" regulation.

Can anyone name ONE monopoly that truly exists in a monopolistic fashion that was not brewed by the government, or wholly subsidized by the government?

True monopolies don't exist in a free market. The only monopoly we battle every day is the federal government, and anyone with common sense can see that.

We're all just too lazy to want to try to compete with those with better ideas, more desire to work, and the drive to succeed...

Re:Losing money never hurt Bill

[Kintanon]

And that, my friends, is why Sony and Nintendo have a formidable enemy in Microsoft. Neither company has the cash reserves to compete with Microsoft on such an unlevel playing field, and neither one seems likely to survive in the video game arena for long without help from Uncle Sam.



I'm afraid you are mistaken about a great many things. This is one arena where Sony could crush MSFT like a bug. They made a nice profit on every single PS2 produced. They have made back their development and production costs several times over at this point. They can drop the PS2 down to cost and not worry at all about it. Even after this price drop they are still making money off of the console. And Sony may not have the liquid cash that MSFT does, but they have an empire that spans across MANY MANY markets. And if MSFT pisses them off, you many not see any more Sony PCs with Windows on them. I think Sony could easily put together a deal with Redhat or someone else to get a customized version of Linux on their systems. Sony has PLENTY of clout in many marketplaces ranging from consumer electronics to who knows what else. Nintendo on the other hand may take a small loss in sales to the Xbox, but I doubt it will affect their bottom line all that much. I personally believe that there isn't room in the market for the Xbox. It's targetted directly at the population segment that the PS2 is targetting, and that market segment isn't going to abandon Sony for anything less than a MASSIVE improvement in both system performance and gameplay. The Xbox just ain't got it. Maybe by the time MSFT figures out the console game in 5-10 years Sony will have begun a decline and opened up a spot for the Xbox^2 or whatever, but until then I'm sticking to my PS/PS2.

Kintanon

Re:Losing money never hurt Bill

[merlin_jim]

Actually, using your monopoly position to undercut the competition by dumping your product on the market well below the market price is illegal, as I recall.

I think its a little touchy... in the XBox case, they don't have a monopoly in the market. But, as I learned not long after I posted this comment, product dumping CAN be illegal, but its also hard to prove in court. One of the reasons the states went after the intrinsic bundling of IE with Windows as opposed to product dumping in the recent court case.

Re:What?

[wik]

How much heat do the XBoxes generate? Are they going to become unstable if you put too many in a warm room? I have never seen an XBox, but I remember hearing about a lot of heat-related problems with the PS2 when it first came out.

Don't buy one yet

[trauma]

It's only a matter of time before MS starts bundling the Xbox free with Windows.

PS1 is now 50 bucks

[British]

At 50 bucks!

50 bucks??

Heh. I wonder if the PS1 at that price will now completely make people shy away from buying the Dreamcast at 50 bucks and buying a bunch of cheap games.

Of course, go to any given store and there's about 1000 cheap PS1 games and about 2-3 crappy DC games if you're lucky.

doesn't matter much to me though. I bought a PS2(something I never thought I'd do) 3 weeks ago just because I grew impatient with the PC release of Grand Theft Auto 3, and now I'm scouring Kmarts and such to look for PS1 games dirt cheap for my amusment, growing tired of playing Counterstrike on my PC.

I'd say it's a win-win situation for any cheapskate gamers who's only choice was the $50 dreamcast and its not-so-great game selection.

Re:PS1 is now 50 bucks

[TellarHK]

Wow. You should have kept waiting. I found out last week that GTA3 for the PC has a release date of 5/20. I'm saving my pennies and got a GeForce 3 Ti 200 for $119 at Best Buy in anticipation.

Re:PS1 is now 50 bucks

[NeuroManson]

For $10 more you can get a Gameboy Advance, which, for a new system, kicks ass for the sheer number of games available when you take into account that it plays all Gameboy titles dating back to 1989 (almost twice what you have from PS1)... Only drawback is that the 3D stuff is reeeeallllly lame on the GBA, harkening back to the SNES... But for a handheld, it's pretty impressive...

Re:Finally, a market not easily....

[Bonker]

Hmmm... Microsoft vs. Sony

This is like rooting for The Empire to wipe out The Borg...

Sony isn't quite as blatantly evil as Microsoft, IMHO, but they are one of the major forces behind both the RIAA and the MPAA. When you buy a Playstation, you're contributing to a pool that eventually helps to lobby for laws like the DMCA and SCSSA

It's a first for Microsoft...

[FearUncertaintyDoubt]

...dropping the price on anything. Here we see the effects of competition. Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly on game consoles, and PS2 isn't susceptible to FUD attacks, so MS has no choice to actually compete in the proper way. By lowering price.

The question is, what will be MS's strategy for the Xbox2? They can't beat PS2 (and maybe not even gamecube). So they will go back and come up with the marketing strategy to win the console monopoly in the next round. They could give their Xbox2 away for a pittance, and hope to get such a large user base as to strangle PS3. But to really kill it, they also need developers to not develop games for the PS3. If they can accomplish both of those they have a shot.

what is wrong with these console makers???

[Lumpy]

Atari slit their throats by drastically cutting the price of thier Jaguar, 3D0 died this way and sega died this way.. Hell Nintendo has never resorted to price Whoring (yet) and they are all that is left from the big console wars of the late 80's early 90's. Sony knows better, but then they already have more than a year's lead on the Xbox.. and With rumors of the PS3 and it's possibility of existing in 1Q 2003... Xbox still hasn't a chance.. I dont know if the winner will be Sony, but I do know that nintendo isnt gonnat get hurt at all... Hell they survived their nintendo64 nightmare...

Re:what is wrong with these console makers???

[ZaMoose]

Nintendo has never resorted to price Whoring

No, they've just fixed prices, induced intentional game shortages, screwed developers, intimidated retailers and misled consumers about the advantages of 16 bit consoles

But no price whoring there, no sir!

How quickly we forget what a monster Nintendo was in the late '80's...

Re:what is wrong with these console makers???

[NanoGator]

"With rumors of the PS3 and it's possibility of existing in 1Q 2003..."

Um no, it will NOT exist in 2003. It will, at the earliest, show up in 2005. (2006 is far more concievable) Sony would drive themselves out of business if they were to introduce a new system this soon.

Also, Id hardly describe the Nintendo 64 as a nightmare. It had tons of totally kick ass titles. The Playstation had tons of CRAP. It had its share of cool games, dont get me wrong, but it did not have a single Miyamoto quality game.

The XBOX has a very good chance, mainly because they have a company that will stick with it. The point of competing in the video games market is to make tons of money, not to be number 1. Sony could end up being in more homes than MS, but that doesnt mean it wouldnt be worth MS's while.

What MS needs to do, though, is create a spinoff game company dedicated to making Nintendo-Quality game titles in house and exclusive to the XBOX. The list of games for the machine needs to distinguish the system, vs. being a 'see, we have that game too!' system. Think about it. If MS makes kick ass games only on their own system, then the difference between $200 and $300 isnt as big if you know you are going to be well supported.

As for Nintendo, I doubt they are dropping the price for another few months. They dont need to. The GameCube stands on its own. If the other machines have to cut their price to stay in competition, then it means that Nintendo is doing very well for themselves.

Re:what is wrong with these console makers???

[ZaMoose]

That depends on what you mean by "Miyamoto-quality". Metal Gear Solid, Xenogears, Final Fantasy VII and IX, Chrono Cross, Gran Turismo 1 & 2, etc. were all high quality games.

Did you mean "PSX had no platformers up to Mario64 snuff"? That I might assent to, although Ape Escape stands as one of the most inventive and entertaining 32bit platformers out there.

Um, "next-gen" systems?

[Wakko Warner]

If they're available now, aren't they current-gen systems?

- A.P.

Linux on the XBox

[PhilJackson]

'd like to know if anyone has succeeded in porting a Free operating system to the Xbox
Do we know if M$ has taken any special steps to stop another Os bieng used? Depending on thier licence wouldn't we be breaking the law by putting a *nix on it?

Re:Linux on the XBox

[Fat Casper]

What sort of license comes with a piece of hardware? I agree not to reverse engineer this box so as to build my own and sell them at a lower price... Except that we already know that you can't sell it for less. The only problem is that once the OSS community gets itself in gear to really take advantage of MS' subsidy, MS will stop shipping boxes. They're already losing money anyway, what're a few warehouse fires added to that? I loved this article, though. That's real pretty.

Re:Finally, a market not easily....

[Black Aardvark House]

The video game wars usually seem to have only two combatants, though.

The original warriors were the Atari 2600 and Intellivision. There were others, including Colecovision and other Atari systems, but these two ruled the roost.

In the 8 bit times, the NES and Sega master System ruled.

In the 16-bit world, you had Super Nintendo and Sega Genesis.

In the 32/64 bit arena, you had Nintendo 64 and Sony Playstation. The Sega Saturn floundered and died an early death.

Now, we have/had four competitors, the two dominant being Nintendo Game Cube and Sony PS2. The Dreamcast crashed and burned and it looks like the XBOX might be heading in the same direction.

Yes, the people enjoy choice, but it's only big enough for two main systems.

Re:Losing money never hurt Bill -- mac soft

[selderrr]

Last time I heard, the MS Mac BSU was a profitable one, which is one of the reasons MS doesn't cut their budget (they can't shut it down alltogether due to that monopoly thingie in court)

Re:It's not funny anymore...

[nherc]

Sir, I ACTUCALLY concur.

Re:Free OSes on the X Box

[Havokmon]

Isn't there some kind software authentication on the X Box that keeps just any x86 program from being executed on it (i.e. it only allows registered games to play)?

Good question.. Has anyone tried burning a CD/DVD with something like Opera on it, and throwing an autorun in the root dir?

Re:What?

[scott1853]

Actually, since they lose money on every box sold, as long as you don't buy games, you can get a decent little PC for $200 and take money away from MS.

A little off topic, but...

[CrazyDuke]

Why all this talk about porting a specific version of linux to the X-Box? Why not just rewrite the BIOS so that it will think it is a regular PC and accept any OS, including your favorite distro of linux? The thing is pretty much a bargan bin PC with a 733mhz PIII and an nforce chipset with slightly better graphics.

Re:A little off topic, but...

[karlm]

From Bunnie's analysis (web.mit.edu/bunnie/) , it looks like the encrypted ROM is decrypted by the southbridge. Hopefully the encryption is a stream cipher (oh happy day if it's a data-independant stream cipher) so they can use trial and error to get OpenBIOS comming out of the southbridge. Bunnie is working on using an FPGA to read the output of the suthbridge. The stuff was slighlty over my head, but that's my understanding of the current state of the art in XBox BIOS hacking. (Is the BIOS loaded 8 bits at a time into RAM, or what was that full-duplex 9-wire bus protocol comming out of the southbridge?)

Bunnie says he's working on his thesis right now. MIT's thesis due date is the 24th, so hopefully we'll all see a lot more work on the Xbox BIOS in the next couple of months.

Re:What?

[selderrr]

this has been elaborated on quite often :if you want to hurt them, DONT buy the box for two reasons :

- promotion. If they can claim to have sold so many million boxes, they win on your purchase due to market share increse, even at a loss.
- an XBox on the shelve hurts MS more than one in your living room : imagine PS2 sold out, and tons of XBoxes still on the shelves. Now that's bad publicity !

Sorry about that...

[dissonant7]

Somehow half my comment disappeared..

After "For" insert the following:

... ~$300 (after adding the DVD pack and the Advanced AV pack) you get a highly capable DVD player that outperforms many similarly priced standalone units (ask Sound & Vision magazine), a HDD based music jukebox (standalone units cost $500+), and a powerful gaming system complete with network play, Dolby Digital 5.1 & DTS, and component video.

Granted the game library is smaller than PS2, but many of the titles are absolutly amazing (Halo, Rallisport Challenge, Morrowind, Munch's Oddysey, Jet Set Radio Future, DOA3, Project Gotham...)

Okay continue statement...

Nintendo = no price drop land (good)

[GweeDo]

People seem to assume that the Gamecube is an inferior piece of hardware, therefore it should be cheaper than the Xbox or PS2. I personally own a Cube and think the exact oppisite. Sure it doesn't play DVD's (but according to recent market survey's people are buying game system to play games, not watch their movies). It is also very important to not that Nintendo doesn't appear to be out to win the "console war". They are out to make a lot of money. This is something they have done successfully for years and years and years. Even in the time of the N64 they where raking in millions. Heck, last year was their most profitable year ever and they expect to only gain on that this year. Nintendo (and their shareholders) don't care if the Cube has the most sales worldwide (though I am sure they wouldn't mind). They want money...and they do that better than any console maker out there!

Re:Nintendo = no price drop land (good)

[Artifex]

Sure it doesn't play DVD's (but according to recent market survey's people are buying game system to play games, not watch their movies)

This may be true about the first game console you buy, but when you go to make your second (or third, etc.) you should be aksing yourself, what does this give me that the last one(s) didn't? You can bet that parents are looking to stretch their dollars a bit more, and something with DVD playback for the same price is a no-brainer when adding consoles to kids' rooms. Heck, that was my biggest excuse at the time I bought the PS/2, before the other two consoles were out: there may not have been many games out, but I was sure tired of watching DVDs on my computer =)

By the way: the PS/2 is the only one with DVD playback out of the box. Sure, you have to use the joystick to control it unless you buy one of the remotes, but still... XBOX's DVD remains a $30+ "option."

Fact is, since I already have a PS/2, I'm interested in the games that XBOX and Gamecube can provide. So far, I don't see anything really worth having, and I would need multiple games for a platform before buying it. (If you buy a console when there's only one game you like, you're nuts, anyway - your effective cost is console+game just to play one game) When I heard about the A.I. games that were supposedly going to be out at the XBOX launch, I was all set to buy... but they seem to have been vaporware =(

Re:Nintendo = no price drop land (good)

[sean23007]

Go ahead and rape my karma for this, but your entire post, especially the conclusion, begs the following questions:

What would you be saying if Microsoft were only out to do the exact same thing? Would the situation be different?

Re:Nintendo = no price drop land (good)

[drinkypoo]

I don't know about the xbox, but the PS2 is an extremely crappy DVD player anyway. The video output quality is nowhere near that of my $130 Apex player, which has a region hack even.

Of course you could get the import gamecube which plays DVDs from playthegames.com for example; They have one with a modchip which plays DVD regions 1-6. Forget how much it is, but it's cheaper to buy an apex and a gamecube.

Too bad i just bought a Playstation 2 yesterday?

[Junks Jerzey]

Too bad i just bought a Playstation 2 yesterday

Why "too bad"? Yeah, the Xbox has cooler tech, but your options for games a pretty limited. The drought is pretty scary.

Xbox 2 Out in September ?

[sien]

There are rumours at the Inquirer here with sources from Digitimes here that the price will be pushed down on the components and something new will be released in September.

Perhaps with the use of such commodity parts it might be possible to have a new Xbox out each year.

The would have strange consequences for a console, would consoles have to say for Xbox 2004 only ? PS 1 or 2 is one thing, but one every year would be another.

Re:Xbox 2 Out in September ?

[NeuroManson]

Depends on how you define a second generation console, the Playstation went through many iterations before finally arriving at the PS1 miniconsole... I doubt, since they don't give any specifics, that this is anything more than Microsoft reducing the size of components used (like chee, how about the controller?), in order to keep the costs of building/shipping the units down... Another possibility is to replace quick to fail components (such as the DVD drive that was failing on a fairly large number of units, which tainted the Xbox record almost immediately) with sturdier models, improve other issues such as cooling, scaling the mainboard/power supply, and of course modify the mainboard to prevent various hacks from being done (like Sony did when modchips appeared...

They can drop the price as much as they want...

[gergi]

but i still wont' buy one. Ignoring the fact that I refuse to buy any MS products, in general, the real holdback of the XBox isn't the $300, now $200, pricetag... it's the games. Halo is a fine game. If I wanted a FPS on my TV, it's probably one of the best. Unfortunately for MS, I have many more and better FPS games on my PC and consoles, in general, aren't well designed for FPSs.

No says Microsoft!

[toupsie]

I'd like to know if anyone has succeeded in porting a Free operating system to the Xbox.

Uh, having you been reading Slashdot lately? According to M$, it is a violation of law for a user to substitute the OS of computer for another that was not sold with the computer. Since the xBox is nothing more than a computer squished into a home entertainment unit, this should hold true as well.

Be safe. Be good. Be right. Never use a viral operating system on a computer that was originally sold with a Microsoft OS. You are not buying a computer but permission from Microsoft to use a computer which they can revoke at anytime according to the EULA.

It's the games, not the console

[Otter]

For me (an adult who fires up a game of Doom or Tomb Raider every so often but is hardly a 'gamer'), what kept me from buying a console for years wasn't the up-front cost but the prospect of dropping $50 a pop on games. When the Dreamcast fell to $50 last Christmas, I bought one and picked up some $5-10 games on E-Bay, probably from kids running out to buy an X-Box. Given my general no-longer-young suckiness (it took me three nights of trying to finish the last stage of the Jet Grind Radio tutorial, the rail to over the mailbox to rail to rail over the overpass to the top of the bus shelter sequence), that's plenty for me.

The $200 price caught my attention for a second but it's back to the $50 games. Besides, how would I decide which of the 34 snowboarding games to buy?

Re:It's the games, not the console

[Kris_J]

In Australia Sony are heavily advertising their PS2 Platinum range at A$49.95 (I think). Meanwhile, your local pawnbroker has games in decent condition for around A$30-$A45. The weekend before last I picked up a new copy of Fantavision for A$11-something, even though I haven't actually bought a PS2 yet.

(If the price drop has made it to Australia then I'll probably have one by the end of the day.)

Re:Finally, a market not easily....

[EnderWiggnz]

If you consider 25 million vs. 1.5 million units deployed "even", I've got some great shares in this energy trading company to sell you.

Re:What?

[Matey-O]

Blockquoth:

PS2 sold out, and tons of XBoxes still on the shelves. Now that's bad publicity !

Wha? Like last christmas when the Cub and the Xbox were sold out and the _Parker_ (podunk) Colorado Target had no less than _60_ PS2's lined up on the top shelf? If one little store had that many PS2s laying about, how many unpurchased PS2 are OUT THERE?

Top five lamest arguments of the console war

[Toddarooski]

1. You shouldn't buy a GameCube because it's a kiddie console! (Only kids like fun games, apparently...)

2. Micro$oft is evil! Therefore you should support Nintendo! (Unless it's being said with irony, then it's clever.)

3. Don't buy an Xbox becuase it's just a stripped down PC! (Oh, no! It's got a CPU and a graphics chip! Run!)

4. MGS is a great game! (Okay, just my own personal opinion here -- 20 minutes of excellent gameplay surrounded by 18 hours of crappy dialogue is a good game? Give me Ico any day.)

5. I'm throwing my loyalty behind (Sony / Nintendo / Microsoft) because they care about me as a gamer.

Re:Top five lamest arguments of the console war

[WildBeast]

me, I already have an XBox and I'm buying a nintendo. They're both great. I was a little disappointed with the GC graphics but the gameplay is fun so I'll buy it anyway.

Re:Top five lamest arguments of the console war

[Peyna]

1. -> Funny, I just saw a commercial on TV for a pretty violent game for GameCube, I believe it was rated M. Just found it, Resident Evil. Yeah, that's a kiddie game. Same goes for Smuggler's run.

I used to think the same way about the GameCube, but until I played a friends and realized that you don't need violence and extravagent plots to have fun games. I think it was some game with monkeys we played, forget what it was called.

When will the lawyers come?

[Rupert]

Probably when there's something on the site other than vapour.

Xbox modchip to be released soon

[fabiolrs]

I sent this story to slashdot some days ago, it was rejected. It seens that this company is releasing a modchip, to prove that (many people told it was a fake) they released videos and photos on their site:

http://www.xtender.info/

PS2 Linux Kit dut to ship on 5/22/02

[DeadBugs]

The PS2 Linux Kit is coming out next week. For $199.00 you get:

Linux for PlayStation 2 version 1.0 software

Monitor Cable Adaptor

Internal 40GB Hard Disc Drive Network Adaptor

Ethernet 10/100 Base-T

USB Keyboard & USB Mouse

Re:PS2 Linux Kit dut to ship on 5/22/02

[Artifex]

Yes. However, for $400 (cost of console and linux kit) you can buy an e-machine or other clone P4 from places like Fry's.

Sure, you can play games on the console, but remember, if you want to store game data, you'll have to buy another game drive (whenever it's released) - this included drive is only good for dev kit use. And with the PS/3 already in the pipeline, I'm not sure how cool this dev kit really is. Maybe if it was a port by SuSE or OpenBSD, I'd be a lot more interested.

Re:PS2 Linux Kit dut to ship on 5/22/02

[Artifex]

I think Sony just saw a marketing niche for geek hobbyists and are making money off it - they already have assembly-level development tools for their real designers. The fact that the kit won't let you read from the internal cd rom makes it clear they don't want people doing production code with the kit. =(

Since when is MS more evil

[WildBeast]

Since when did MS become more evil than Sony? Many people here seem to be getting a PS2 because MS is evil yet we all know how much more evil Sony really is. Copy-protected CD's, RIAA, DMCA, etc. But suddenly nobody cares.

Slashdot is a weird crowd. I also remember the day when people were favorable to a RedHat acquisition by AOL/TW. Go figure.

Re:Since when is MS more evil

[WildBeast]

btw, you should be praising Nintendo instead, they're much less evil than Sony and MS combined.

Re:Since when is MS more evil

[ZaMoose]

Riiiiiiight

Unless you were being facetious. Then it's funny.

Remember the late 80's? Nintendo was practically vile.

Re:Since when is MS more evil

[WildBeast]

oh well, live and learn :)

Re:Since when is MS more evil

[Sentry21]

I also remember the day when people were favorable to a RedHat acquisition by AOL/TW. Go figure.

I just want nice red/black coasters to counterpoint my blue/white coasters.

--Dan

Re:Since when is MS more evil

[Ziviyr]

Nintendo might be less evil, but how less evil? Like Freddy Kruegar evil?

I think "Pikachu evil" covers it.

Since I can't stand "Windows evil" and "poorly filtered graphics, DMCA rox0rz evil" I went for the yellow rat evil, that and it was a hundred bucks cheaper at the time.

XBox security is tough

[Animats]

The XBox's firmware is in a 1MB mask-programmed ROM. It can't be changed without replacing it physically.

Physical replacement of the firmware chip is possible, but requires soldering 29 wires.

See a summary of XBox vulnerabilities here.

Join the Evil Empire here and make security even tighter.

It's worth understanding how the XBox locks out non-Microsoft approved software. We might see a lockdown like that in mainstream PCs someday. The MPAA and the RIAA would like that.

Sony Vs. Microsoft Gaming = Sony Victory

[Razzious]

I have watched this whole X-Box PS2 war rage for some time. Its amazed me that the X-box has done as well as it has actually. However I have watched Microsoft make a trend of "follow the leader" in the gaming industry and yet stay behind.

Everquest...Love it or Hate it, its been a higher success than Asherons Call. AC2 is excpected out at the end of this year just in time for the Starwars Galaxy release from Sony. We know the SWG release will pull gamers that have never considered a MMORPG before. Not to mention the "Planes of Power" release coming in November from Sony

Then wait a year and get the EQ2 and once again you have the makings of a Sony Victory.

Should Microsoft think they can kick Nintendo out of the Market, they are going to have to work harder than they did to get Netscape off of the desktop. Nintendo has continually shown it can hang in the market, and if they start pumping out new releases of the OLD SKOOL NES games, the nostagia alone will make us buy it. I have not paid attention to the GameCube really, but reading Metroid info has me ready to buy one tonight! Add to that "UP, UP, DOWN, DOWN, B, A, SELECT, START. and I have the makings of a CONTRA PARTY!

Sony needs to send Microsoft an e-mail that states clearly "You're in OUR world now"

Re:Sony Vs. Microsoft Gaming = Sony Victory

[Razzious]

I knew that sounded wrong...Thanks!

This is new to MS

[mslinux]

MS developes software. There is no expensive 'manufaturing' process in software development, at least not when compared to hardware. All they need is code, some CDs and card board boxes. This is one reason they have made sooooo much money. There isn't that much over head in what they do. Hardware development is different, much different. The profit margins are lower, much lower. Labor costs are higer, etc. There are too many variables that MS can't control which can influence the price of the parts in the Xbox i.e. earthquakes in Taiwan drive up microchip prices. So my question is, how long can their bank account support this kind of loss? And, when will Bill get tired of a reduced income? You have to admit, he has gotten use to making a lot of money ALL THE TIME, not just during the 'good' quarters like average companies. And my comment is: this is a good example of a monopoly in action. They take a huge loss (because thay can afford it) put their competitors out of business, and then raise prices. I think it's the begining of the end for MS. IMO, Their entry into game consoles is a desperate attempt to penetrate other markets before they loose all of their software business to open source, but it's to late, and they can't play on a level field. But one thing is for sure, Bill is gonna have to learn to live of less.

Re:Why microsoft still makes money on the xbox

[WillSeattle]

True, MS is losing tons of money on the box, but every console manufacturer since the dawn of time has been losing money on their console. The money is not in consoles, it never will be. Its in games

Hold on. MSFT loses more than $200 now on each box. NTDOY makes money on each GameCube. Sony was breaking even on the PS2 - at best they're losing $100 per box.

With games at $50, MSFT needs to sell 10 to break even with the old price. Now it needs to break 15 games per box. NTDOY makes money on each game, so each game is gravy. Sony was in gravy for any games - now they have to sell 5-10 games at most.

With these economic realities, the best thing for Open Source is people buying xBox to turn them into Linux or BSD devices - and buying either no games or just buying Halo (one copy will do).

-

Re:Some Console Thoughts

[TuxLuvr]

This is pretty damn funny; too bad it's stolen from planet gamecube!

Earth to perl god: some of us read game sites, too.

Keep on dreamin'

[jhylkema]

I'm not a Microsoft fan either, but, let's face it, M$ is not going to "loose [sic] all of their software business to open source." And it is not "to [sic] late" either. Even in the server market where Linux excels, they have achieved, what, a whole 15% market penetration? What measly percentage has it achieved in the desktop market? How many tenths of one percent? And what of VA and all of these other Linux companies that were supposed to make money hand over fist? VA? Hah!

Face it, guys, the techies don't make the purchasing decisions, PHBs do. Windoze is marketed to PHBs and that's what's going to get purchased, period. I know it sucks, but open your eyes, guys!

480p on a PS2

[Phil Wilkins]

Actually, with the recent release of v2.5.0 of the system libraries, PS2 does 480p quite happily.

Your sig

[zbuffered]

I hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate youI hate you.
There, I feel better now. I'm going to run home, get real drunk, and hopefully forget about that by friday.

Re:Your sig

[fahrvergnugen]

I'm with you, man. This guy's a total fuckhead for spoiling that. Why is it when the editors do it, it's called spoiling and everyone's pissed, but when this guy does it, it's a funny .sigline?

Canadian Prices

[ChronoZ]

For those in Canada, Future Shop sells systems as follows:

GameCube: $299
Playstation2: $299
XBox: $299

Now's a good time for buying a system..

There is encryption on IDE

[TechnoLust]

They are using an IDE encryption that is part of the new standard. This controls accessing the hard drive in another machine. If the drive is put in another machine, it will not let you access it without the proper code.

As for the DVD player, I tried to rip a song off a burnt CD and it won't read them. Also, there are rumors that the game DVDs read backwards (i.e. outside to inside.)

microsoft's deep pockets

[zrodney]

ms does have a lot of money, but they use that
as a reason to do nothing most of the time until
the opportunity passes. Look at the history:

webtv -- they bought it and sat on it

go -- remember go, the pda in the early 90s?
remember windows with pen extensions??

somehow, pilot was able to make an entirely new
market from something that microsoft bought,
developed, then threw away because their research
showed that nobody wanted to leave windows 3.1

so, what I'm saying is that Microsoft's huge
cash reserve actually hurts their innovation
because they have no drive to make anything new
or better.

Re:microsoft's deep pockets

[binaryDigit]

Well, I wouldn't be so quick to say that Palm "made a new market from something M$ bought ...". Don't forget that there were a great many players that came and went in that market (esp. Apple with the Newton). Palm just made a "true" PDA, vs what M$ and others tried with scaled down portables.

But that's another market segment. Yes, I agree that their huge cash reserve doesn't necessarily help innovation. It simply helps them weather the storm if they feel that they need to push through whatever technology they happen to be hawking at the time. I was being sarcastic about the "beauty" of the cash reserve and massive income (unless of course your M$).

Rebates

[Sasquatch666]

My girlfriend just bought a PS2 about a week ago from Circuit City and was able to get a hefty rebate back. CC's policy is if you can find it cheaper 30 days after you buy it, they'll refund the difference + 10%. Since the price dropped by $100, she got $110 in cash back from the store. Not a bad deal :-)

I'm sorry, but...

[dnaumov]

I'm sorry, but I will only use the XBOX when it runs the Hurd.

Re:Do it yourself console system

[Artifex]

Put the guts of a laptop in a nice looking box, and make holes for the game ports, sound ports and TV adaptor.
Then, modify the linux kernel so it is suited just for playing games straight off the CD.
I hear thats what the PS2 is but I have no clue really =)

Then you heard wrong. =) The XBOX would be the closest thing to a converted PC, using an actual x86 CPU and an NVidia GeForce derivative. Both of the other systems use proprietary cpus and sound chips.

Actual Price Difference

[donnacha]

The difference isn't that great, you're forgetting that Americans have to pay an additional sales tax, varying depending on which state they make the purchase.

The British VAT (Value Added Tax) of 17.5% is built into the British price.

American Price: $200 = £138

True British Price: £199 - £35 VAT = £164

The Price Difference: £164 (British) - £138 (US) = £26

That extra £26 is necessary for two reasons:

1. As a buffer for the downwards adjustment that the British Pound will have to make before joining the Euro.

2. To compensate for the lower number of expected games sales per unit sold in the UK as opposed to the US; Americans find happiness and personal worth by buying things they don't need and are less discerning about the quality of the games they buy.

So, not such a bad deal after all.

Re:Actual Price Difference

[darien]

That extra £26 is necessary ... as a buffer for the downwards adjustment that the British Pound will have to make before joining the Euro.

Er, what? So the retail price of an XBox has been deliberately inflated (making it less competitive) against the possibility of a fall in the relative value of the pound against the dollar several years in the future? Somehow I don't think so!

Actually, this type of pricing has been going on since long before the Euro was ever seriously thought of. The UK market simply sustains higher consumer prices (in absolute terms) than the US and much of Europe, and has done for many many years. Never heard of rip-off Britain?

Re:Finally, a market not easily....

[Artifex]

I guess that makes Nintendo the Daleks.

Remember their practices in the 80s?

"You will obey us - we are the superior beings!" (content policing)

"EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!" (attitude to unlicensed companies)

In the Borg vs. Dalek vs. Empire depate, I'd have to go with the Empire... some human individuals could retain identities apart from what they belong to, and might even be "happy." In real life, however, I've been staying with Sony, so far.

the dreamcast has great game selection

[AtaruMoroboshi]

What crack are you smoking?

I bought a Dreamcast late last year and I've aquired all of these games for under $30 each, most at $14.99 or less:

Chu Chu Rocket
Space Channel 5
Sonic Adventure
Street Fighter Alpha 3
Marvel vs. Capcom
Crazy Taxi
Jet Grind Radio
Resident Evil: Code Name Veronica
Sega Bass Fishing
Sega Marine Fishing
Shenmue
Soul Caliber
Virtua Tennis
Sword of Beserk
Typing of the Dead (hilarious! type at zombies to kill them!)
Dead or Alive 2
Power Stone (AMAZING 3-D fighter, a genre I'm only kinda into, this game is serious fun. I got it for $8.99 last week and have been playing it non-stop!)

There are a lot of seriously awesome games for the dreamcast that while you might have to search a bit, are worth the effort. Here's my list of games I'm currently tracking down (some are still easily availible, I just can't drop $300 on a dozen games right now.):

powerstone 2
seaman
sega bass fishing 2
skies of arcadia
granda II
shenmue 2
Street Fighter 3: Third Strike
Marvel v. Capcom 2
Capcom v. SNK 1
Capcom v. SNK 2
bust a move 4
house of the dead 2 (and light gun)
samba de amigo (and special controller)
alone in the dark 4
sonic adventure 2
crazy taxi 2
tony hawk pro skater
tony hawk pro skater 2
fatal fury: mark of the wolves
Bangai-O
Bomberman Online
Giga Wing 2
Gunbird 2
Project Justice (rival schools sequel)
Dance Dance Revolution (and dance pad)

now, i realize hunting high and low for games isn't most people's idea of a good time, but if you're up for it, the dreamcast is WELL worth the effort. Not to mention all the neat hax0r things you can do with it, like boot linux, burn your own boot discs and play nes emulators...

the fishing controller and keyboards are easily availible, as are memory cards and additional regular controllers. Aracde stick controllers are a bit rarer.

the dreamcast is well worth the investment.

I do plan on getting a used ps1 to play metal gear solid, final fantasy 7, and dance dance revolution (easier than tracking down the import only DC version), so I see your point about if you're only going to buy one console, but I think for me, that one console would be the dreamcast. I'm starting to be fond of it in the way I am fond of my iBook, which says a lot.

.

NetBSD on XboX -

[Neck_of_the_Woods]

Link to NetBSD Hack for XboX

How-to included with loads and mods.

Re:Free OSes on the X Box - one more link..

[DeionXxX]

I discovered this link on Xbox-Scene.com... They've got a roadmap and such. They're looking for Xbox programmers.. who are familiar with FATX right now.

Anyway... here's the link.

-- D3X

Oops. Try again.

[Jayde Stargunner]

I'm in the gaming biz and I can tell you that this is not the case.

Microsoft annouced a few weeks back that they were planning a price drop the first day of E3. Sony then decided to follow suit "in May." (Without a specific date set.)

-Jayde

Re:Oops. Try again.

[CynicTheHedgehog]

I'm in the gaming biz and I can tell you that this is not the case.

Perhaps, but do you have a link to a purely speculative article written by an obscure web comic scriptwriter to back up your statement?

That's right. Who da man.

Re:Oops. Try again.

[Jayde Stargunner]

I'd have to track down our PR person to get ahold of the actual releases, and she's not online at the moment... HOWEVER...you can use this for some slight reference.

http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories/news/0,1087 0, 2865558,00.html

"The price cut had been in the works for several weeks, according to David Hufford, Xbox product manager at Microsoft. Microsoft has been working with US retailers over the last several weeks to orchestrate the price reduction and put it into effect as smoothly as possible. Following Sony's announcement of a price cut for its PlayStation 2 console, Microsoft decided to follow suit rather than wait to announce the cut next week at E3."

Basically, Microsoft was gonna annouce a price cut at E3, Sony got wind of it and decided to beat them to the punch, so to speak.

However, it was something MS was already going to do at E3 anyway, so Sony's annoucement did not pressure MS into the position. It was actually the other way around.

-Jayde

Re:Oops. Try again.

[Phil Wilkins]

I think Sony just have a better poker face than Microsoft.

press bias?

[zeus_tfc]

Did anyone notice the differences on the CNN headlines? Both Xbox and PS2 get price cuts. Both are the same original price and both are decreased the same amount, but the CNN headlines are "Sony cuts price of PlayStation, PS2" and "Microsoft slashes Xbox price" Does this seem odd to anyone else?

xbox

[geekoid]

Now all they have to do to get me to buy a xbox is drop the price another $300.

Price fixing?

[Merlin42]

Ok IANAL by any stretch of the imagination.

What exactly is the definition of price fixing? It seems that with other products manufacturers can only state an MSRP(manufacturer suggested retail price, but with consoles (and to a very slightly lesser degree games) the manufacturer gets to choose the price that stores sell it for. Why is this?

Re:Price fixing?

[Tazzy531]

This happens a lot in a variety of industries. Mainly high end electronics and also for video tapes/cds/dvds. They sell it to the stores for a lot cheaper and tell them that to get it for that price, they have to sell at a certain price. They are not legally bound to do so, but if they sell below a certain price, they will not receive free promotional material and other ramifications. You'll see that video tapes, DVD, and CDs have a set price that they sell out.

Occasionally though, you'll find a resaler that won't care and sell it to you for cheaper..but it's a hush hush type of thing.

Nintendo consoles a different breed.

[cryptochrome]

By all accounts nintendo consoles may be less sophisticated than those of MS or sony, but they no longer target the same market or game selection. Hardcore adult gamers have chosen the PS2 (and flirted with XBox), while the GameCube is primarily targeted to the kids market.

The competition between the PS1 and N64 is what sealed the deal. Because the PS1 used CDs that were less responsive but offered WAY more storage space than cartriges they could make games with far larger and more involved plots. This allowed them to target the more patient but more easily bored adult market more effectively - particularly solitary adventure gamers. Nintendo chose to use cartridges as they had before for the N64, and ended up catering to the less picky, short attention span, multiplaying kids. Despite it's better hardware. I can only think of two titles for the N64 solidly aimed at adults. (Meanwhile Sega trapped itself midway between the sony/nintendo upgrade cycles, putting the dreamcast in the shadow of the Next Big Thing and ultimately killing it when the PS2 arrived).

Lately price was also a factor, as the monstrously expensive PS2 and Xbox pushed parents towards the much cheaper gamecube for the kids. But these price drops could change that. It's odd that Nintendo may be going for the older market again with some of the newer titles, but it's going to have stiff competition with Sony's library.

Not XBox 2 - "second-gen" means reduced-cost build

[Namarrgon]

Nowhere does the DigiTimes article say Xbox 2 - that's just the Inquirer reading things into it.

What is far far far more likely is that this is just a new design for the current Xbox, using smaller motherboard, cheaper parts, trimmed-down design etc, as the rest of the DigiTimes article describes. No extra features. This is standard practice for console makers to reduce hardware costs, and more necessary than ever for MS after the price slash.

No, while it might be interesting to see a new and improved Xbox every year (could be done, so long as it was 100% backwards compatible), it'd take a major ongoing design effort, and would create confusion in the marketplace. Still, MS could likely pull it off more easily than any other console manufacturer, and many people do have a burning need to upgrade to the latest thing...

Even thought MS looses money...

[geekoid]

...I still won't buy them, and either should you if your opposed to MS.
MS will use the numbers of units sold to say, "see, we are popular, make games for our platform" so more money will go into games, it will have a percieved popularity, so them people who ,IMO, don't know better will start buying them. Once established, you'll see cuts in there game cost, until Nintendo begenis to start feeling the pinch and decides it can make more money just making games. Of course by then, they'll only be XBox to make games for.
The MS will raise the price of the console, not so much someone new can compete, but certianly to a break even point. Then you can ecpect to see game hit 100.00, and it will by the only item in your house that is already DRM certified, so you can play the CD, but not be tempted to make a copy.

This is assumiong they stick with there normal M.O., they probabl;y won't becasue they got into so much troupble from the justice dept.... oh wait.

So exactly when did "Justiice Dept." become doublespeak?

Re:A completely unscientific stability comparision

[PatJensen]

I am in full agreement with you. My trips to Target, Wal-Mart and Toys R' Us were the same. Just around Christmas time last year, every X-Box I saw had a black screen with green lettering "This X-box has encountered a hardware failure, contact Microsoft for service" or something along those lines.

I did buy a GameCube for my wife, and we've been very happy with the quality and replayability of the games I got. Super Monkey Ball is fun with a bunch of drunk friends, and I really dig the graphics in All Star Baseball.

Pat

Gamecube's target market

[Aexia]

>>I'd like a cheap console to play some quick, fun, and social games with friends.

Get Smash Bros Melee and Super Monkey Ball.

Re:What?

[Aexia]

>>Since they're so cheap, you could (perhaps) install BSD/Linux and use them as a web farm.

Then MS could sue you under the DMCA for circumventing their profit protection technology.

... unless you buy a copy of Halo for each and every XBox.

Three strikes and you're out!

[Phil Wilkins]

PS2 component cable

PS2 progressive scan title

PS2 dts titles

HAND

Re:Too bad i just bought a Playstation 2 yesterday

[MKalus]

As an Xbox owner: No not really, it's summer (well, so they claim) right now and I am hardly at home anyways.

Michael

Re:What?

[jafac]

Buy one used on ebay then. Who cares if it has no games to run if you're going to plop Linux onto it.

Re:Finally, a market not easily....

[jafac]

Yes, the people enjoy choice, but it's only big enough for two main systems.

No, it's big enough for zillions of systems (especially if there were such a thing as cross-platform game development) - but wall street only likes a company that dominates it's market. Apparently a stock is only worth investing in if the company is a monopoly.

What a steal!

[DarkHelmet]

$200 for an Xbox? If you include the cost of putting a Win2k kernel on there, that means that I'm getting the hardware for free!

So does that mean if I get an Xbox with linux on it instead that they'll pay me for it?

Quick way to kill MS

[wackybrit]

MS is relying on games sales to make money because they're losing up to $150 per XBox sold. Therefore, the more people that buy Xboxes and don't buy any games for them, the more damage it does to Microsoft.

So, one of you millionaire Linux zealots.. go buy 5000 Xboxes, and dump them into the ocean. You'll have just cost MS half a million bucks.

Oh, I forgot.. there aren't any Linux millionaires.

Re:Do it yourself console system

[i_am_nitrogen]

Actually the huge other chips in the PS/2 are also not proprietary; there's an ARM CPU, and two MIPS CPU's, all three of which are fully compatible with the standard ARM and MIPS instruction sets for their respective CPU models, and there's the graphics chip, which is Sony proprietary, but as I recall modified from some SGI designs. Some of these things I refer to as chips are on the same die.

Longer term returns

[xixax]

Someone I know who runs a tyre store was telling me how one particular franchise was willing to set up a store in a new area and run it at a loss for ten years purely to shut down any competition in the area. Add up their cash reserves and work out how long they can afford to wait to get a sizable installed base that can be leveraged later for other consumer applications.

Just for a start, how about shipping games like:
Online billing/banking?
Cheap phone calls using VoIP & MSN?
email?
web browsing?

Xix.

Not entirely true

[wunderhorn1]

The PC clone market was born when Compaq and Phoenix clean room reverse-engineered the IBM BIOS, which specifies the low-level interaction between motherboard components. After that it was simple to piece together the parts that would act like a real IBM.

The cloners were (and still are) able to sell their PCs cheaper because IBM charged ridiculous margins.

Re:Not entirely true

[denshi]

The way I remember it, clones would buy the chips from the same people who built the IBM PC's boards, and use the Phoenix/Compaq bios. But since they couldn't get the contract breaks that IBM did, they were pinched for margins to compete with IBM. When the chipsets were condensed, the clones could build boards for less than IBM (who didn't have a tradition of rapidly minaturizing board designs -- see any mid-80's mainframe), and really ate the market alive. That also started a trend: PC board design moved tremendously fast, as everyone tried to out-minaturize everyone else. Thus the conquest of the market.

I did omit the clone BIOSes, but for good reason: those just gave compatability; the new chip designs gave lower cost and supercedence.

Re:Do it yourself console system

[Phil Wilkins]

Err, although both the EE and the IOP are MIPS derivatives, neither could be accurately described as a standard MIPS core. Also, there's no ARM in there.

Pretty much every chip inside the PS2 is a custom job, except for the RAM.

But....

[MtViewGuy]

I think Nintendo will HAVE to reduce the price of the GameCube.

Remember, Nintendo originally priced GameCube at US$199 because it undercuts the price of both PlayStation 2 and XBox. With that advantage now gone, Nintendo faces the real prospect of losing many new customers to PlayStation 2 or XBox. This is why I expect Nintendo by at latest the start of the Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3) lower the price for GameCube to somewhere between US$130 to US$150.

Re:Oops. Try again. and again

[Jayde Stargunner]

This is still nothing more than speculative. Sony's always bragging about how they're working on "x technology" to make their current or upcoming platform better.

The reason Sony did it was because it was leaked on the internet that Microsoft was doing a price drop. (I looked into it, and I guess it was a leaked Wal-Mart ad, actually.)

Of course everyone knew a PS2 price drop was coming *eventually*. Heck, the system is almost *2 years old* and hasn't had a price drop yet. Really, it was a matter of *when*, and Sony had no intention of reducing their price this soon.

Sony's had no trouble selling units at $299, and was in absolutely no rush to reduce their profit margin. They only did it this soon to be competitive with Microsoft, who cut prices much sooner than anyone anticipated they would.

-Jayde

Re:What?

[Marx_Mrvelous]

You and the other comments are all wrong, it's a lack of understanding economics. I'll reply to you since you're not an AC.

If MS produces 1,000 X-boxes at a loss of $400, they lose $4mil if no one buys any.

If MS produces 10,000 X-boxes at a loss of $200 each (every one was purchased), they lose $20mil.

So, which way do they lose more money?

Re:What?

[Marx_Mrvelous]

The other comment is right... If you buy one, MS loses $200, but then they produce one more. Net loss of all X-box purchases goes up $200. Learn economics ;)

Re:Do it yourself console system

[i_am_nitrogen]

I do believe I recall a friend telling me there's an arm stashed in there somewhere, or maybe it was an sh... anyway, he's one of the guys who's doing the ps2 linux port for kernel 2.4/2.5 in his spare time, vs. the "antiquated" and messed up 2.2 tree that ships with the linux kit.

Re:Do it yourself console system

[Phil Wilkins]

Trust me, no ARM, no SH anything. Two MIPS cores, and two vector units, are it as far as processing goes. Although you could almost class the DMA controller as a processor.