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Judge Says Sonicblue Doesn't Have to Monitor
MoD writes "From CNet: District Court Judge Florence-Marie Cooper on Friday overturned a late April ruling that required the maker of ReplayTV set-top box technology to write and install software to monitor what its customers were watching."
YAH!
the last place I need more spyware is on my television. No one needs to know how many episodes of Star Trek I've been watching.
The Only Person Willing to be Me is ME!
This is fantastic.
Perhaps now I will go out and buy one of these. Say YES to good precident!
--Should work--
In many of these cases, it only matters what the final judge decides, and then it really only matters what the Supreme Court decides. Each side will continue to appeal as long as they have money trying to get the ruling they want.
Judge said the brown envelope sent to her address wasn't big enough to warrant such a thing.
(Note for humour impaired: don't moderate it)
I assume everyone remembers the television "screens" in 1984 which allowed the state to view exactly what its denizens were doing? It came *this* close to realization before this thankfully clued-in judge overturned it.
We're not there yet.
the corporations have been doing this for years, back and forth
"If the networks and studios focused on the inevitable evolution of their business instead of attempts to stifle technology, we believe everyone involved would benefit, consumers most of all," the CEO added. "
I'm starting to hear this more and more. I hope that this was an influence in the judge's decision. The simple fact of the matter is that markets change. You can't legally force them to stay put. Doing so will ruin this economy. There is a lot more at stake here than just ad revenue.
"Derp de derp."
then they should design and market their own Tivo/ReplayTV, etc device. I'm sure that they would know how to market it and I bet they could sell to countless Joe Schmedley's who wouldn't care if their viewing practices were monitored. Especially if they were given some kind of incentive like a chance to win some prize by actively participating in info gathering.
OTOH, the enterainment industry might wreck that product by not providing a commercial skip/fast forward feature. They're still deathly afraid that they'll piss of they're advertisers.
All things in moderation.
Finally a company that understands their consumers rights. There is nothing different from the Replay system than fast forwarding commercials on a VHS tape.
Rights are hard to come by these days... too bad there isn't more of an outcry.
I don't understand why people are so opposed to having viewing habit information gathered. All the cable companies will be pushing targeted advertising in the next year or two, how will the cable companies be able to deliever targeted ads if no one wants their viewing habits looked at?
How are cable companies supposed to gather the data they need? I'd like to know...
Slashdot doesn't have to repeat stories
Micheal says, "My write up was longer too! This is an injustice!".
Arrogance is Confidence which lacks integrity. -- me
This is good. It would have been dangerous beyond the scope of the case at hand to have the court start requiring the implementation of anything that those opposed to a software system dream up. Of course this could be eroded or reversed by other cases but still a step in what sane people must think is the right direction.
All my previous sigs now look like this one, I wish they were permanetly recorded when used.
Unfortunately, I think the victory will be shortlived. Replay TV users can basically ftp television shows to each other's consoles. Neat feature, but it probably makes the entertainment powers-that-be soil themselves with fear ("Holy Cow! That's file swapping! Quick, get me Legal on the phone").
Rather than work with Replay TV or TiVo, it will only be a matter of time before the TV industry reps files for litigation that will require Replay TV to monitor their users for uncopyrighted or illegally disseminated materials, and prevent their transmission.
After all, it worked to get rid of Napster, didn't it?
Sigh.
-FC
"Ok that's it. We've had enough with the public. Who do they think they are? Well, we have a plan.
All network TV will now be encrypted in a similar fashion to satellite TV. In order to be issued a decryption smartcard, customers will be forced to sit through 120 hours of non-stop commercials followed by back-to-back reruns of My Two Dads and Hart to Hart."
Asikaa
Come in, twenty-seventy-seventy, your time is up.
So this is getting interesting. More and more companies are coming up with technologies to zap commercials. If the technology is robust and usage widespread, will we see a fundamental shift in how we "pay" for tv content? After all, much of the cost of over the air tv is subsidized by commercials, so what if (in a web crash way) advertisers say, hey, if people are zapping the commercials, we are not going to run them/pay a heck of a lot less for them. Say that this is widespread (again, like the rollercoaster that web advertising has gone through), will the networks then be forced to shift their business models? What would they shift them to? Would this be the begining of the end of "free" over the air tv? I personally know of only a couple of people who do not have cable/satellite, is OTATV a dinosaur anyway? Is the price we'll pay for being able to zap commericials be that we'll have to pay more for content?
How about they ask us which type of advertisements we'd like to see (let us choose categories via a menu), instead of trying to ascertain what we're interested in via spying on our viewing habits?
The one night of the week I watch BattleBots, I don't want to see a ton of feminine hygene product advertisements just because my wife watches soap operas every day.
-J
I really wouldn't care if the networks were aware of what I was watching right now. Unfortunately, they wouldn't just leave it at that. My TV viewing history would be stored, possibly sold to third parties, and might eventually come back to bite me in the ass. "Sorry Mr. Lehmann, but our records show that you watched 'The Spring Break Bikini Babes / Alien Autopsy Special' on Fox back in 1994. We wouldn't want types like you in this organization. Have a nice day"
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
OK, just to take a (slightly) extreme example...
:)
Girlfriend/wife goes to bed. Boyfriend/husband stays up and watches pr0n (without girl's knowledge). Next day, watching telly together, ads for "the hottest new sex channel" come up.
Man in trouble.
Just a random example. I'm sure there are many other less-morally-dubious ones
- Oliver
The right to bear arms is only slightly less stupid than the right to arm bears...
I'm almost afraid to say this here, but I agree with you...partially. I gave up the concept of true privacy a while ago. If someone really wants to find everything about me, they can. It may be inconvient for them, but casual snooping is just plain rude anyway.
HOWEVER, it is just smacks of seediness for a judge to mandate that viewing habit information be collected by the manufacturers of an appliance. It's like requiring computer manufacturers to automatically compile a record of every file stored on them and to send that list to M$. just in case
Best Windows Freeware
"All the cable companies will be pushing targeted advertising in the next year or two, how will the cable companies be able to deliever targeted ads if no one wants their viewing habits looked at?"
Not my problem.
"How are cable companies supposed to gather the data they need? I'd like to know..."
They don't need it. They do want it. I don't want them to have it and they are my viewing habits and my eyeballs for the targeted ads. We already pay for what should be a purely ad supported medium (they said so then).
We could give up yet another foothold to the same creetins that call us durring dinner (telemarketers)and interupt our entertainment (advertisers) but I say no, if only because fighting them is often more entertaining than the stuff on television.
This is a sad day for us lying bastards. I was just beginning to relish the idea of hacking the reporting mechanism. Then I'd be able to influence network programming without even viewing the shows. This way I could dictate the mindless drivel without having to watch any of it - a double win! Create enough spurious reports and the system would have been useless. *evil grin*
Given one hour to live, the student replied: "I'd spend it with professor FP who can make an hour seem like a lifetime."
...at least for a little while longer. Spyware in your TV, yuck!
Daily Shenanigans
Because as soon as some one has the information, EVERYONE will want to use it, including the government.
Suppose you're in a bitter custody battle for your children and the ex says you're a terrible parent and you're violent. Her lawyer would subpoena the cable company and then hire a psychiatrist to analyze your viewing habits and give expert testimony against you based on information that is totally irrelevant. And you know most judges would believe them.
Or if you want to go with Big Brother conspiracy theories, then lets assume that the new and improved FBI/CIA is going to make a new Carnivore program that will analyze your viewing habits and flag you as a murderer, rapist, child molester, terrorist, etc..
Of course these are extreme views, but are they really that far out there when compared to recent laws?
Wasn't it discovered earlier that SonicBlue was already collecting data on thier viewers? All this means is that they don't have to produce the data to the big TV networks.
G!
I must be the only one who wants TV shows to be tracked. And I find it hillarious that Broadcasters do to. I want TV shows to have to stand up to the same metrics as websites do. To have commercials linked directly to web pages, or to monitor how many people fast forward or leave the room during commercials. I garentee TV would see the same Advertising withdraw that the Web did. Broadcasters have a really nice system going where the only messure of how much money the get for a advertising spot is how many people are watching the show. Do you think Ford will spend 10 million dollars on a super bowl add, if they found out everyone goes outside during half time an throws the ball around. (I know bad example, but you get the point). Basicly I don't think Broadcasters are ready for the revenue change new metrics of this type will bring. Apoptosis
Ever watch the movie RED DAWN? The invaders (at the time were Russian/Cuban) located and eliminated all the gun owners by tracking their records. Now, just imagine a corporation doing this...
You keep going until you die..."Me".
.. and ALLOW.
The proposed settlement would REQUIRE them to monitor. If they decide that *as a part* of their business model, they would like to monitor viewers habits, they can do so. They can make it voluntary. They can make it opt in. Then can make it opt out. The point is, the government should not be the one telling them what their business model should be.
If you buy a replaytv then all your viewing data belongs to them. Then they use your tv and your pvr to force feed you targeted ads when you pause, in banners on menus etc.
This cached google page is why I will not be buying a replaytv. When will device manufacturers make a decent product and leave me the fuck alone after the sale. I have money to spend and I will not support companies that harass me.
We have the best government that money can buy.
Is there any law like this in the US? I'd love to see users being given the right to see the data on these boxes (when inevitably it is harvested), especially via some kind of telnet login ;-) then you could hack the contents and send their statistics to hell. Big brother, go away.
Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
I don't think advertisers care what you want to see. In fact, their goal would be to show you something you *don't* want or need, and convince you that you *do* need it...
...I'm not sure what you'd do with the feminine hygiene products, but I'm sure the manufacturers would love to have you buy them whether you need them or not.
How are cable companies supposed to gather the data they need?
I don't know, and I don't care. They fact that they would like to know doesn't make it any of their damn business.
Before the remote control ads were sometimes downright painful. I remember commercials for headache medicine that emphasized the pounding and pounding and pounding. Nowadays, commercials need to be funny or at least a little entertaining to keep your attention or you'll change the channel. They need will be even better in the PVR era. You can't hold technology back. They may have stopped napster but did they stop file sharing?
That which does not kill me only makes me whinier
awesome! I have the power to get negative points any time I want! I must only use this...for evil!
There is danger in targetted advertising. New customer aquisition tends to suffer when you target _too_ well (because you're advertising to people who are likely already customers), and then advertisers get soured on the value of advertising. Some of the best and most valuable advertising and marketing is decidedly _non-targeted_ where advertisers surprise themselves by finding high converstion rates and RIOs in market segments they never would have thought of had they been offered uber-granular targeted media buys.
"Old man yells at systemd"
The way the article describes the system it makes these devices out to be a lot like an "internet-device" style napster clone. Wonder if this ruling will have any effect precedent-wise for these type of companies in the future...
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I don't understand why people are so opposed to having viewing habit information gathered. All the cable companies will be pushing targeted advertising in the next year or two, how will the cable companies be able to deliever targeted ads if no one wants their viewing habits looked at?
I hope this is sarcasm. Boy do I hope.
If it's NOT sarcasm, I'll respond with this: Most people would probably not mind having their viewing habits recorded under the proper circumstances. The problem here is that 1) the customers who bought the SonicBlues weren't informed up front. Imagine if your car suddenly started telling Ford (or Chevy, or Kia) where you were driving, or how fast you were going. I'm sure that if the Nielsen Corportation (the rating company that gathers data for the TV industry) designed a box for retail sale that collected data, people would buy it. As long is they were informed in advance of this.
To be honest, I don't know why they haven't done this yet. It costs the Nielsen Corporation $$ to track the ratings for TV shows when people would do it for free.
The original ruling was ridiculous on the face of it in the first place.
;)
I already had a device that would allow me to record a live television program, skip all of the commercials and for a small fee send the ENTIRE program to my friends.. It's called a VCR.. It use to come in two flavors, Beta-Max (the Macintosh of VCR's) and VHS (the DOS of VHS, does 70% of Beta-Max, with better marketing).
I really think that the people who should have pressed the suit in the first place were the Nielson folks. They're the ones who really need to know that I've watched the entire Band Of Brothers series about 80 times so far....
The only reason that the first judge didn't make RCA/SONY/et al write software for VCR's that reported who was recording what was the simple fact that NOBODY knows how to program a VCR...
The Dopester
"Yes, I'm a Karma Whore, but I'm doing it to pay my way through school."
The skipping-commercials feature gets Hollywood steamed. And I don't blame them -- it is the crux of their business model. No one likes their business model ruined, just ask the RIAA. The thing is, in the USA we get free, over-the-air TV in return for advertisements being pushed into our houses. That isn't going to change. Instead, where the advertisements are put will change.
On the third-to-last ER of the season, in the ultra-emotional opening segment where we saw people's reactions to Carter dying, the local NBC affiliate had a scrolling text banner across the top of the screen. "Important Details About The Crisis In Boston's Catholic Churches -- stay tuned to Channel 7 The News Station for an important news story tonight at 11!" (Or something close to that.) To the people that really care about ER, this was a major distraction and hurt the content.
It isn't just local affiliates that do this sort of thing. Sticking with NBC for a minute (though they aren't the only ones who do this), is anyone else sick of the text overlays when they come back from commercial? They state the show that you are watching (NBC logo + "The West Wing"), but right before they wipe it away, they REPLACE IT WITH AN AD for something else like "The Friends Baby Is Born This Thursday! (Check local listings.)"
This is only going to get worse. I'm not talking about product-placement stuff that has gone on for decades, I'm talking about how our television will very quickly resemble a poorly-designed web page. Navigation banner on the top, news/stock/other update scroll on the bottom, advertisement on either side and less than 40% of the on-screen space used for content, right in the middle. This will be extra-great with the poor NTSC standard we have in the US.
Sigh. [STRIKETHRU]At least we can point out drastic flaws in our administration when we need to.[/STRIKETHRU] The United States will win the war on terror, and dissenting voices will be quashed. This is wartime, people!
Online wrestling as a trading card game? WWF With Authority.
Two points:
.. a la Double Click fiasco. Have you ever heard of a company providing the feds with contest/survey data? They dont, or if they do, they have absolutely no choice. Thats not to say that companies dont fuck with your data - just pay attention, because the Blue Chips (Coke, Nike, etc) have been watching all the online privacy issues from the sidelines and are very cautious about what and how they deal with your data. A large company deals with exponentially more scrutiny with respect to their consumer data collection and management processes than your mom'n'pop or e-new.com businesses.
Suppose you're in a bitter custody battle for your children and the ex says you're a terrible parent and you're violent. Her lawyer would subpoena the cable company and then hire a psychiatrist to analyze your viewing habits and give expert testimony against you based on information that is totally irrelevant. And you know most judges would believe them.
1. Large, bluechip companies (believe it or not) are terrified of mismanaging your data. When they sell you to third parties, you're likely to complain, maybe file a suit or two if they violated their User Agreement as it pertains to your data. But if they start sharing this data with the feds, they know they'll never have a hope in hell of getting your permission to collect this data. The first time something like your scenario happens, everyone will complain
Or if you want to go with Big Brother conspiracy theories, then lets assume that the new and improved FBI/CIA is going to make a new Carnivore program that will analyze your viewing habits and flag you as a murderer, rapist, child molester, terrorist, etc..
Do you really think that collecting the viewing habits of users watching legal, mainstream television are going to help tip FBI/CIA off to trouble-makers. Its not like Bomb Making - A Guide to Anarchists is on every Wednesday at 7pm or something.
I really dont think aggregated viewing habits is data that is too sensitive to be collected. The only thing I'd be scared about is the media buys getting too granular, and having that turn advertisers off when their buys suffer from a low ROI (due to viewer burnout.) Then, they turn around and devalue the media, thus fueling the need for more advertising. Sometimes targetted advertising can suffer from tunnel-vision blindness.
"Old man yells at systemd"
Another example is on the Rosie O'Donnel show she recently shilled for Wendy's new salads, saying how great they were. I wasn't watching, but apparently while she was talking her producer said "Take a bite", "What?" "Just do it."
Another good example is the TV morning "news" shows on the day Coke launched Vanilla Coke. The Daily Show did a wonderful send up of this. "The Today show host then informed the Coco-Cola spokeswoman that it was time to go to a commercial break, at which point she just allowed her to continue speaking."
I can picture this getting a whole lot worse, as it's the enw hot trent in advertising. I've basically stopped watching TV altogether except for the Simpsons anyway.
___
Cogito cogito, ergo cogito sum.
It's funny, I got to thinking about how to have valuable ad revenue despite commercial skipping technologies, and it didn't take long to come up with a plausible idea: Trivia contests.
Imagine buying a Cell phone from AT&T, but getting $25 off for being able to answer this question: 'Q. What AT&T plan offers one low rate for any time, any where? A. One rate'
If somebody doesn't know the answer to this, they could go look it up on the net or watch TV with the ads and figure it out.
If somebody does know the answer, then what's the point in pummeling them repeatedly with ads? Annoyance is a big reason that people want to skip the ads. Well, if I'm willing to remember the 'One Rate' plan, then the advertiser's done their job, lets stop bugging me about it until it's interesting to me.
The big advantage of this idea is that it gives people incentive to watch the ads, instead of trying to strap them to their chairs.
"Derp de derp."
The value of a television broadcast license should plummet. In a free market, when one technology obsoletes the business of another, the latter fails. After all, we sell a hell of a lot more oil filters than we do buggy whips in this country.
In an ideal setting, that would mean that large corporations would abandon broadcast licenses in droves and they would be cheap enough that individuals and small groups could pick them up and find new, innovative and interesting uses for them.
How long do you think it will be before that happens? :)
If that is, in fact, the natural (capitalist) way of the world, then how long do you think the artificial value of broadcasting licenses will be kept propped up by a colluding industry and government? "Gee, we can't make any money with this damn FCC license. We need to go to Congress and see if we can't get some laws passed to make television broadcasting profitable again".
MjM
XKCD:Xeric Knowledge Comically Dispen
Mod parent up!
I'm not about to sacrifice my rights for the advertisers' business models.
Not so much on the Judges ruling but this week on the show "On The Media" had two stories about TiVo and a follow up on product placement because of TiVo.
0 2_ tivo.html
:)
_ product.html
http://www.wnyc.org/onthemedia/transcripts_0601
Which talkes about TiVo, and then in intresting fact, it seems that someone was reporting that the BBC had down loaded a show or two to all TiVo machines that could not be deleted, had to wait one week before it was removed. Thus hoping I guess for people to watch it. ( Could be full of add
And http://www.wnyc.org/onthemedia/transcripts_060102
another story:
On what the advertisers are doing to get their products in front of people's eyes.
-Scott
It is said that a child learns wisdom from the parent,
but the truly wise parent learns joy from the child
Don't you think it's only a matter of time until advertisers start putting commercials inside TV shows, a la The Truman Show? I never thought that movie was all that great, but I'll never forget that part where Laura Linney (Truman's "wife") starts advertising for some product right in the middle of the show. Sure, it's ridiculous, but how far are we from this? Not very if you ask me. Product placement in movies (and TV shows, I'm sure) play a huge part nowadays, and their part will only increase as time goes by.
Another thing that's related to this -- a while ago, I bought a box of Sugar Crisp cereal, and on the back there was some storyboard-like comic about how Sugar Bear was going to steal Sugar Crisps from Granny Goodwitch. Then there was some dude named Sugar Crisp Crook who was into pilfering this cereal from Sugar Bear...and the more I read, the more I realized this sounded like a TV cartoon, albeit a bad one. A quick search on Google yielded the results I'd expected -- it was indeed a part of a TV show called Linus the Lionhearted. Check out the quote on this website:
Well, guess what...if commercials are not going to be watched, the line will once again be crossed and re-crossed. Just because we've always watched commercials for "free" TV doesn't mean it'll continue to be this way.
- SJW
When will device manufacturers make a decent product and leave me the fuck alone after the sale?
Unfortunately, according to trade publications it's 4 times easier to sell to an existing customer than to get a new one. That's a huge market, and people view it as "leaving money on the table" if you don't try to sell more stuff to existing customers.
Because if everyone's tv viewing habits were monitored, we would have real statistics and ratings, and maybe some of our favorite shows wouldn't get cancelled the way they do.
The file sending function, which is primarily intended to move the files within a home network of ReplayTV boxes, is not feasible for sending content over the Internet.
Programs stored at medium quality (not even up to VHS standards, mind you) are often gigs in size. Furthermore, the SonicBlue transport mechanism is nowhere near as efficient as FTP. It can easily take over 20 hours to send a half hour, medium quality show to someone, OVER BROADBAND.
The industry argument about the file transferring is a red herring. Make no mistake, the big boys are not really scared of SB's dysfunctional file transfer capabilities-- it's the ad skipping that pisses them off.
Who is RTFM and when will he help me with Unix?
...they can't have that, now can they?
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Blipverts here we come!!
You say that like it's a good thing. Please don't assume that we're interested in any advertising. Advertising is intended to generate interest in a product. Advertising itself is rarely worth mentioning on its own merits.
Geez... The USPTO will rubber-stamp anything these days, won't they? This isn't really even patentable let alone meeting the un-obviousness criteria.
The only reason why they haven't set up an "attention brokerage" is that it's deuced hard to manage with what we've got in place and the people buying the ads and selling the ads still think the old ways work.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
How are cable companies supposed to gather the data they need? I'd like to know...
This word "need": I do not think it means what you think it means.
__
Do ya feel happy-go-lucky, punk?
You know, my privacy and constitutional rights mean a lot more to me then a TV show. I would gladly keep my rights rather then say, oh Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Enterprise, etc.
There are two assumptions that I think are being made, incorrectly, by both sides. One assumption is that given a specific technology like commercial skipping, that everyone will use it. The second assumption is that, with the absence of a specific technology like commercial skipping, that commercials won't get skipped.
In general the majority of the population will not use commercial skipping technology. I know that most of the people that I've sat around with when watching a tape recorded show, rarely if ever hit the forward button and I think this is similar with the PVR folk. Additionally people will skip commercials even during live broadcasts, they'll flip channels (mostly the men) or find something else to do (especially if you have kids or your multitasking TV with some other chore). I would say that skipping technology would be statistically insignifant in it's effects on the ad market. I'd love to see someone come up with independent results to show one way or another.
"Do not be swept up in the momentum of mediocrity." - anon
I'm interested in a ReplayTV. Can anyone comment on how well/if they integrate with DirecTV service?
The same way we get targeted advertising now. Ever notice the lack of ads for 'feminine hygiene products' during the Superbowl? They target the audience. Football game = beer and car commercials. Ally McBeal = tampon and shopping commercials. Two o'clock in the morning tv watching = 'phone chat' (wink wink) commercials. They already target the audience, no need to target the individuals.
do not read this line twice.
They could also use it to perform some kind of remote psychological analysis of YOU.. Think about that one....
--
A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking.
Once digital TV rolls around and they get the watermarks put in you'll see commercials running non-stop in the "black bars" at the top and bottom of the picture. You already see commercials for programs during program playback (usually in the lower right corner).
Of course, since the TV networks see a very sizable chunk of their revenue from their non-broadcast divisions it really doesn't matter much. They'll scream and kick their way to Congress and the FCC who will accomodate their lockdown on program "sharing", but boradcast TVs days are numbered anyway. I give it until 2009 which is a few years past the mandatory digital changeover before people no longer care just as they no longer care about boradcast radio.
I can't stand the ads
the ads are better than the "content"
pure drivel drives off the plain old drivel
The channel logo in the lower right hand corner pisses me off to no end. The Science Channel is the worst. I've quit watching it when I go to someone else's house. (I don't pay to watch TV as a protest to Jack and Hillery).
Can't stand the CNN bull sh*t taking up 3/4 of the screen while the talking head gasses on about drivel.
Most of the "news" is lies or spin anyway.
What isn't lies or spin is just inaccurate anyway.
Phew! I feel better now.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
And small scale attempts to hack reporting software like you suggest won't even be a blip either. Sorry to make you realize that you aren't the world-changing, corporate-overthrowing, l33t hax0r you think you are.
My post was intended to be humorous, although the content was serious. You raise a objection which deserves a response.
You argue essentially that the actions of one man can't change the world. To recast this statement, you claim that a single write-in vote has little effect. I agree.
My argument is a little different. If the channel is open and the protocol broken, I can create many spurious activity reports, effectively 'stuffing the ballot box'. If only 20% or better yet 50% of the votes are mine, I'd have a significant influence.
To make this possible, three criteria be satisfied. One, the channel needs to be open and cheap. Using the internet to sending reports meets this criteria. Two, the protocol must be broken. This is the achilles heel. Clever encryption techniques would prevent an attack, but, ReplayTV doesn't have any incentive to do this well. On the other hand, the studios might be able to dictate the protocol. Fortunately, their track record hasn't been very good, so I'll suppose that their protocol can be broken. *smile* Three, the reports must avoid fraud detection mechanisms. Here I only need to make sure that my fake results model the statistics of the real ones close enough to fool the filters. Of course, my personal goals could be even weaker - I can corrupt the system by just casting doubt on all the legitimate results.
Finally, I'd like to commend the judge for this result. Unfortunately, not every spyware mechanism will be thrown out. As another reader has mentioned, the studios could just as easily build their own digital VCRs. If the existence of the spyware cannot be attacked, go for the protocol. If that doesn't work, try something else. Just keep fighting.
Given one hour to live, the student replied: "I'd spend it with professor FP who can make an hour seem like a lifetime."
Okay, so even if this monitoring does in the end become a fact of life (there are higher courts), what will prevent some clever hackers from making up a firewall for these Replay systems?
With a network probe or phone-line tap you could easily reverse engineer the protocols used to transmit this data.
You get a small box with a low-powered CPU, 2 network cards and modem interfaces and plug the Replay in to the "safe" side ports, and plug the others in to the wall.
Whenever the replay goes to send viewing data to SonicBlue, the fierwall changes all the data. It could either be random data or you could tell them you watched the NASA TV all day every day.
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
Buyers should be aware that "lifetime" means the life of said unit, not your lifetime. So as soon as the HDD, which is writing pretty much all the time, dies, you are supposed to pay another "lifetime" membership.
Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
True, but on the converse, there is no ammendment to the Constitution guaranteeing your "right to be entertained." So don't be surprised if the eventual shakeout of this whole deal is that broadcast television/entertainment of all types goes the way of the dodo, so that its all retail purchased. At least until people agitate saying they have the right to copy and distribute anything they "buy". At which point you'll have to finally find a way to keep your own ass entertained for once.
Tim Gaastra
Build a better mousetrap and the world will immediately get their fingers caught in it.
AOL/TW set top boxes won't allow ad-skipping.
I think the largest impediment to this will be syndication. It's unclear how to add "new" commercials to this in the future, and it's unclear that advertisers really are going to want their ads lasting that long when their message may have changed substantially (new coke anyone?)
The PVR itself is easy to use, and allows you to record any show you want! Unlike Tivo's poor hardware model, I have designed a system with unlimited storage, in the form of inexpensive 'cartridges'. Unlike Sonic Blue's cold digital picture, Steve-O's warm analog signal gives every character a healthy, ruddy glow! Buffy never looked so good!
Steve-O's excellent service is unrivaled in the industry! Find out what's playing anytime, day or night by calling the Programming Line: Steve Ballmer at 1-888-Vel-0P3R. He will be happy to answer any questions you may have, as well as offer program selections! (MSNBC is always a favorite!) Your information is safe because he never writes anything down!
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Build your own. I have a friend who has done this. He is using an old computer with linux and a 120 gig hard drive. It has a video in/out card. He sets up chron jobs that automatically record the shows that he wants. I imagine that it would be possible to write or find something to remove the comercials.
Uma cabaca, um arame, um pedaco de pau!
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These are reasons to not watch TV at all, not reasons to not buy a PVR. Are you just super-retarded?
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
They don't ask because there just aren't enough Victoria's Secret and SI swimsuit issue ads to go around...
Denver Isuzu Suzuki
Larry Ellison is so proud of you he just wet his pants.
Excellent. Let's dump TV and cable. For all practical purposes, it wasn't around fifty years ago. The country can continue. back then, people read books, talked to each other made love and did all sorts of things and didn't die of boredom. Wake up, people. Remember the Applead in the Stupid Bowl, where the guy threw the hammer into the screen. Your remote's probably heavy enough. Give it a try.
Interviewer: Hello, welcome to AmeriCorp, Incorporated Against Enemies of AmeriCorp.
Interviewee: Hi. As you can see from my resume, I've had experience in several large, successful projects, and I feel I can bring-
Interviewer: We already know what you can bring. Our programming analysis shows that you'd be an excellent mailroom boy.
Interviewee: a positive sense of... what?
Interviewer: Our programming analysis shows that you enjoy FauX network programming, and also the "Man" show. We can't have an obvious sexist pig in a position of authority.
Interviewee: But.. I have a sixteen year-old son, and he watches on my TV sometimes, so we can watch as a family.
Interviewer: Plus, our records show that you have browsed goatse.cx repeatedly.
Interviewee: Oh.. I'll kill the brat for using my login.
Interviewer: Hmm, tendency toward domestic violence, how typical. Anyway, mailroom boy is probably the safest position for you here.
Car analogies work about as well as a Ford Pinto with a keg of beer in the passenger seat.
This word "need": I do not think it means what you think it means.
More to the point, the companies are not "needed". Remember, whenever someone uses the word "need" in this context, they're trying to control the conversation. If I say I "want" something, you may well tell me to piss off. But if I say I "need" it, you're supposed to be sympathetic and be seen as a jerk for allowing my "need" to go unmet when it's within your power to meet my alledged "need". Just like companies won't say they're selling your information, they're "sharing" it, for your benefit, of course. Sharing, MMMMM -- nice-nicey. And all that BS.
This is found on many VCRs and is the same as the PVRs. With Panasonic, only the el cheapo units seem to not have this. Who knows, the current base model might have it this year. It is a blind skip forward for some number of seconds in response to the user pushing a button. Of course a PVR skips virtually instantly compared to tape. This helps but not as great a benefit as...
This is found on Panasonic consumer VCRs from about the midpoint of the line up to their top. It analyzes commercials by guessing on audio level and video fading to black, etc. It collects this during the realtime recording and then marks the tape afterwards. The only downside in practice is that you have to wait a little for this marking phase. It depends on the number of commercials but I would guess it takes an additional 10%. You lose the info if you change tapes. The speed at which it skips is its fastest fast forward without unloading the tape off the head. I'd guess six seconds for two minutes of commercial. It is not long enough to start conversation.
I'd like to claim that I sought out and found this feature on my own but it was my techno savy 70-year parents that bought the first unit that turned my head. Their selection was based mainly on repair frequency as per Consumer's Reports mag. Panasonic is significantly best in this category and my family had taken several hits on Sony decks.
I bought one, then a second for them, got a friend to buy one, then three at once (2nd for me, 1 buddy, one for fiance) and another friend. This stretches out over three years. None of these decks has malfunctioned yet.
I have two tivos. I only recommend PVRs with caveats.
My now wife and I are in the process of watching all Seinfeld episodes, more or less in order. I collect with Tivo, dub to VCR for more buffer space. I put down the title in front of each episode. My point in mentioning this is that the Panasonic VCR nails the commercial cuts in and out almost perfectly. The start of the skip is never permature but sometimes a blip of the commecial gets by. The tape stops slewing and settles then the sound comes back just right on the money. I get no false skips but only in one area do I get an overage on skip length. Perhaps due to the nature of the program coming back from the last commercial break for a short end segment, it sometimes (10%) blows past this last little bit. Not too bad, over all.
Hope this helps.
All my previous sigs now look like this one, I wish they were permanetly recorded when used.
First of all, the fact that you had to get that page from the Google cache and not from Sonicblue's own web site is a major clue that it is out of date information.
Second of all, I've owned a Replay for going on 3 years and I can report (accurately) that:
(a) So far there have been no banner ads in menus as you suggest. I'm not sure this feature even exists in the current software.
(b) While the "ad on pause" feature does still exist, it hasn't been used for a paid ad in over a year. The only ads that have appeared there recently are ads for discounted versions of Sonicblue's new products, to reward loyal Replay customers. And frankly they are not that intrusive, all you have to do is hit the EXIT button to clear them off and see the paused screen underneath.
So much hysteria, so few facts.
IIRC, the original VCR ruling held that it was legal to time-shift a program, that is, to record it at one time and watch it at another time. It is not legal to watch a taped tv show more than once, far less to transfer it to another individual, and even less than that to transfer a -duplicate- to another individual.
Fortunately, it is also not legal for the media industry to forcibly monitor what we do with our VCRs and tapes. (Of course it's not illegal for someone to produce a product that does monitor your use of that product, so maybe the media industry will find a different way of pressuring the recording devices industry... make it required for THX certification or something...)
Parity None
--Parity
'Card carrying' member of the EFF.
If the business model changes to that of integrated commercials, what happens to the standard length of a sitcom or "1 hour" drama? If there are no commercials, will they have to lengthen the actual shows to a full 30 minutes (or 60 minutes)? Can you imagine what the Actors Guild would do? TV Actors salaries?
Can the American ADD mind sit still that long?
I only mod up parents of "mod parent up" posts...
No.
They can't charge for the wave lengths that they transmit television on anymore than Clear Channel can charge for it's radio waves.
They don't own them, the government does, and it granted them use of such airwaves for the good of the public.
If the FCC considers this public faith broken, it can take those rights away.
This is a great victory for more than just Sonic Blue. This sets a precident that prevents manufacturers from being required to install monitoring software. That said, the issues of file sharing and commercial skipping are still open (for which litigation is no doubt forthcoming!)
By the way, the whole "file sharing" issue has often been misinterpreted. ReplayTV's file sharing is not an unlimited sharing tool like Napster was. You can only share a file with up to 15 other people, and once the recipient receive the file, they cannot share it further. Yes, itis file sharing, but it's been designed to be somewhat limited.
My mom always said, "Jim, you're 1 in a million." Given the current population, there are 7000 of me. God help us all!
I was (temporarily) prevented from buying a house when a credit reporting agency sold false information about me. This after having been preapproved by 2 different lenders.
You'd think there would be liability. You'd think they should regret what they did. Surprise! They didn't. I was the one with extra expenses and invconvenience, not them.
TiVo is NOT a generic term for a PVR. TiVo is a SPECIFIC brand of PVR. Other SPECIFIC brands include UltimateTV and ReplayTV.
This lawsuit is between the television industry and SonicBlue, makers of ReplayTV, which is a PVR, not "a tivo."
SonicBlue does not collect any customer data (except for billing information, of course), hence SonicBlue filing an appeal. Had they collected the data already, the outcome of this would be quite different.
TiVo collects aggregate data anonymously, and quite clearly provides you the opportunity during the setup process to opt-out of this data collection. They aren't "spying on customers" per se - it's more "surveying customers."
I don't know what Microsoft collects from UltimateTV customers - but I'd take a guess and say it's probably a whole lot more intrusive than either Replay or TiVo.
If you think that was a guy I'd say either your memory needs work or your TV set does :-)
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Can you name the company?
.. the large well known companies that are not super-net saavy.
Maybe I can clarify I meant only large, blue chip retail/service companies who know that they are known by name by a large portion of the population. The type of company that takes out media buys on cable and network television. The McDonalds, the Nikes
I believe your story, but I'm interested in knowing, who is this credit reporting agency? I'm guessing they are not really in the general public conciousness, so needn't be as concerned about data mismanagement turning into PR nightmares.
Asides, sounds like they fucked up your data by accident - I was refering to companies using your information in purposeful unscrupulous ways (like selling _correct_ information behind your back.)
"Old man yells at systemd"
Even public radio and TV have fallen victim to product placement. :(
The other night I went with some friends to a Karaoke Box (basically, you do karaoke but instead of it being in a big bar in front of everybody, American style, you go in a room just big enough for you and your friends.. like what they do in Japan.
Anyway, I was disturbed that in the background video for one of the songs (you know what I mean, the really cheesy low-production-values video that they play as a background to the lyrics on the TV screen), some woman was wearing a denim jacket with Coca-Cola patches sewn all over it.
Given the patches and how they didn't really go with the jacket at all, it is pretty much impossible that the jacket just happend to have Coca-cola patches on it for no reason.
I guess they'll stick an ad anywhere.
- In Capitalist America, law violates YOU!
That's not the future, that's just the past coming full circle. A lot of the old radio programs from the 40s would do just that -- stop the story in the middle so the characters could talk for five minutes about how great Rinso White laundry soap or Borden Powdered Milk was.
I think they should be liable for their accidents, like anybody else. Otherwise they won't care how many mistakes they make.
In the end it got ironed out because apparently there's a law that if you get turned down for a mortgage due to a bad report, they have to provide you a copy of your credit history and procedures for fixing their errors. But I got that letter like 2 months later.
I love that I've been trolled because I replied to a thread that someone else posted and then one of your moderators deleted.
The thread in question was lude and crude and I was simply asking how it applies.
as you can see the RE in my subject line it was not I who posted this comment.
had I known that this comment would be deleted as I replied to it i would never have hit the submit button. however now I have been trolled for defending the integrity of these forums.
whatever....
The Only Person Willing to be Me is ME!
Umm, They now do have "black boxes" in some newer vehicles to monitor what you do. I don't know the full details but it's here.
There has grown up in the minds of certain groups in this country the notion that because a man or a corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years , the government and the courts are charged with the duty of guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary public interest. This strange doctrine is not supported by statute nor common law. Neither individuals nor corporations have any right to come into court and ask that the clock of history be stopped ,or turned back, for their private benefit.
-- The Judge in "Life-Line"
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
No one needs to know how much Golden Girls I'm watching.
That's how I knew that I really TRULY was in love with my wife. Back before we were married, we were watching Casablanca (original BlackAndWhite), and she wanted to watch the GoldenGirls, so I let her. Later she said, "Let's rent a movie... Something romantic..." The fact that I didn't scream or anything proved that I was deeply in love with her!
Are you really this stupid or are you just being sarcastic?
From what I read a couple years ago, it's supposed to record the amount of time you spend doing different types of driving, allegedly to determine how much you're polluting. The idea of attaching a GPS to the black box has also been discussed. I'm sure police organizations are drooling over that idea.
Wow... thanks for the insight pal.
First some history...
The Music Industry.
Until the 18th/19th Centuries, most music was distributed within the heads of troubadours and the like who travelled round earning money for playing.
By 1910, the most popular distribution format was sheet music which enabled people to play it themselves.
Edison had invented the phonograph late in the 19th Century and from this, the record rose to prominance as the distribution medium of choice. As technology improved, more and more could be stored on records leading to 78's 45's and LP 33's.
Tapes became a popular means of distribution at some point in the 50's or 60's (ironically, a lot of the big record companies positively encouraged tape swapping from gigs featuring the likes of Jimi Hendrix as it improved record sales - how things have changed)
CD's appeared on a large scale in the 1980's and the death of the record was predicted.
I last remember seeing vinyl singles some time in the 90's.
MP3 becomes popular in the late 90's leading to the rise of Napster and other file swapping programs. Tapes still sell. Vinyl albums are still popular (and touted as superior by some). CD's sell by the shedload but not quite as much as at their peak.
News, Television and Film
Regular newspapers start cropping up in the 18th/19th Centuries. They become rather popular.
By 1930, a popular news format is newsreel such as Movietone and Pathe, shown in cinemas. Newspapers are still popular. Radio is also a widely used news system.
Television is invented in the 1920's. It doesn't really take off big time until the 1950's. It doesn't kill off newspapers. It does, however, kill off movie news (after all, who wants news that's a week old when you can get it every day?)
VCR's start becoming really popular in the 80's and the big corporations say that videos will kill off their industry.
Hollywood now makes shedloads out of video sales. More people go to cinemas than at any time since the 30's. There are dozens of dedicated TV news channels. Newspapers still aren't dead.
The big corporations have to change in order to survive. These court cases involving Napster, Digital TV recording, DeCSS et al aren't about "protecting the artists" (who only get about 2-5% of the price of a CD - guess who gets around 70%); they're about the big corporations not liking having to get off of their laurels and find a sustainable business model. OTATV as WE know it probably is dying: as far as I can see, it will eventually only remain in areas where cable cannot take off because of geography and there is sufficient public will to keep it.