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ReplayTV 4500: No Hacking, or Else
mcglk writes "I was happy to see that SonicBlue had released its new generation of ReplayTV, the 4500. And it was $250 cheaper than the 4000. Except for that $250 one-time service activation fee. Worse is the agreement that goes along with it. Term1A basically says, No more hacking. Term1G says that they can enable or disable anything they want without notice. And Term2C says that if someone even alleges you are infringing on copyright, you can be shut down with no notice, no recourse, and there's nothing you can do about itthe agreement indemnifies them completely. I was really looking forward to getting one of these, too." Under that agreement, SonicBlue claims the right to destroy your device when you connect for updates.
... you can be shut down with no notice, no recourse, and there's nothing you can do about it--
Just begging for a lawsuit, surely?
Even though anyone here can easily purchase TiVo instead, I predict a flood of whiners complaining about ReplayTV.
Of course, they are complaining that they should be allowed to steal service because they paid for a completely unrelated piece of hardware somewhere else along the line.
I have been pwned because my
Man, I love my TiVo!
..Jeff Keegan
seven syllables explain TiVo: kee gan dot org slash ti vo
I would think so, but to turn around and try to apply all these restrictions implies a fundamental lack of understanding of what computer geeks do!
Or, a complete understanding, and overly restrictive agreements to try and somehow compensate?
Palaces, barricades, threats, meet promises
Good think I have my fully hacked DirecTV Tivo's where I can grab all the content I want of of them with now quality loss (Check out the forums at dealdatabase to see how)
Just when personal video recorders were starting to look good they do this. And tivo (in the UK at least) have decided that they, not you control what you record. Are there no honest companies left out there who just want to make their money by selling a good product, and not by trying to exploit their customers in some underhanded way?
Sig is taking a break!
This is very scary. It's vendors taking out UCITA in advance. They have all made up their minds that they can do this, and they are going ahead full steam. Grass roots, people - beat the fields, flush the snakes out now.
radsoft.net
That kind of enduser agreements does not comply with the consumer protection laws of most countries and are therefore not legal.
These terms are identical to those terms that are present within the Tivo service license agreement. I think you can expect terms like this from whomever you get your PVR service from. They are here to Cover Their A$$. You can find more information about Tivo's license here:
Tivo's Service Agreement
"If I can see farther it is because I am surrounded by dwarves." -- Murray Gell-Mann
...like that ever happens!
---------
REPLAYTV 4500 Digital Video Recorder
Activation and Service Agreement
This Agreement applies to your use of the ReplayTV Service and is a legally binding agreement between you SONICblue Incorporated and its wholly owned subsidiary, ReplayTV Inc. (collectively "ReplayTV"). By clicking the button marked "I Agree" below or by otherwise communicating your acceptance to ReplayTV or by using the ReplayTV Service, you agree to all the terms and conditions in this Agreement. IMPORTANT NOTE: Your ReplayTV 4500 works only by receiving the ReplayTV Service offered and provided by ReplayTV. If you do not agree with all the terms and conditions of this Agreement, you are not authorized to use the ReplayTV Service, and you may return the ReplayTV 4500 to ReplayTV or the authorized retailer from whom you purchased the product for a full refund.
1. Use of the Service
A. Authorized Product. You may access and use the ReplayTV Service only with a ReplayTV 4500 product authorized to receive the ReplayTV Service and you agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify the authorized product.
B. Personal Use Only. The ReplayTV Service is for personal, residential, non-commercial use. Any other use is not permitted under this Agreement. You may not re-sell the ReplayTV Service in whole or in part, nor, except as part of your transfer of the ReplayTV 4500 unit as provided in this Agreement, may you transfer the ReplayTV Service.
C. Eligible Subscribers. You represent that you are at least 18 years of age. You may permit minors to use the ReplayTV Service under your account, but you agree that you are fully responsible for the minors' use of the ReplayTV Service.
D. Accurate Information. You must give us accurate and complete information when you activate and use your ReplayTV Service. If you do not, ReplayTV may terminate your account at any time.
E. ReplayTV's Privacy Policy. ReplayTV respects the privacy of your information and will not disclose any of your information except as permitted in ReplayTV's Privacy Policy. A current copy of ReplayTV's Privacy Policy is included in the Privacy Policy section of the main menu in the ReplayTV software included on your ReplayTV 4500 and on the SONICblue website www.sonicblue.com. Please read it carefully before using your subscription for the ReplayTV Service. By using the ReplayTV Service, you understand and agree with how ReplayTV handles your information as described in our Privacy Policy. ReplayTV will use commercially reasonable efforts to notify you of any substantial and material changes to the Privacy Policy. However, you are responsible for viewing the latest Privacy Policy which can be accessed through our website at www.sonicblue.com.
F. TV Programming. The ReplayTV Service gives you the ability to see and record televised programs. However, ReplayTV exercises no editorial or programming control over these programs ("Third Party Content"). You understand that (a) ReplayTV does not guarantee the access to or recording of any particular program, (b) programming is not under ReplayTV's control, (c) ReplayTV is not responsible for and has no editorial control over any Third Party Content, and (d) ReplayTV has no control over the distribution of programs. You also understand that television programs, films, videotapes, and other materials may be copyrighted. Unauthorized recording and sending of such material may be contrary to the provisions of the United States copyright laws. The rights of copyright holders are subject to limitations when persons are engaged in "fair use" or are protected by other provisions of law. You are responsible for complying with these laws.
G. Changes to ReplayTV Service. At its discretion, ReplayTV may automatically add, modify, or disable any feature or functionality of the ReplayTV Service or on the ReplayTV 4500 when your unit connects to our server or at other times with or without notice. In addition, ReplayTV may modify the terms and conditions of this Agreement from time to time (and will notify you of these changes to the Agreement)
H. Software. ReplayTV provided certain software with the ReplayTV 4500 unit you purchased, and may provide replacement (for example, bug fixes, updates or upgrades) and additional software to you from time to time (which may include by automatic downloads to the ReplayTV 4500 unit), in order for you to access and use certain features of the ReplayTV Service. Your use of all such software is subject to the terms of this Agreement. However, if a software license agreement is included with any such software, then those terms (and not this Agreement) will govern your use of that software. You have a limited, non-exclusive right to use the software only with the ReplayTV 4500 unit with which the software was provided or for which it was downloaded. You may make one copy of the software you download for backup purposes only, provided that such backup copy must include all copyright and other proprietary information and notices contained on the original. You acknowledge and agree that the software is copyrighted and contains material that is protected by copyright, trademark, trade secret and other laws and international treaty provisions relating to proprietary rights. You may not remove, change or hide any of ReplayTV's or its licensors' or suppliers' proprietary rights notices on or in the software or on output generated by the software. Except and only to the extent permitted by applicable law and this Agreement, you may not copy, decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, modify, rent, lease, loan, distribute, assign, transfer, or create derivative works from the software. You acknowledge and agree that any unauthorized use, transfer, sublicensing or disclosure of the software may cause irreparable injury to ReplayTV, and under such circumstances, ReplayTV shall be entitled to equitable relief, without posting bond or other security, including but not limited to, preliminary and permanent injunctive relief.
I. Ownership; Certain Rights. ReplayTV and its licensors and suppliers retain title to and ownership of all the ReplayTV software. ReplayTV and its licensors and suppliers own the intellectual property rights in and to the ReplayTV 4500 unit and the ReplayTV Service, including the copyrights and trademarks associated with the ReplayTV 4500 unit and the ReplayTV Service.
2. Fees and Term of the ReplayTV Service
A. Subscription Fees. Your use of the ReplayTV Service is subject to your payment of the subscription fee in advance. The subscription fee covers only the basic ReplayTV Service, and does not include charges or fees (a) for premium or other additional services offered as part of or through the ReplayTV Service for which ReplayTV charges additional fees, or (b) to third parties for telephone service or broadband access, if applicable. You are responsible for any such telephone or broadband service charges and acknowledge and agree that you shall be solely responsible for all disputes with any third party related to the same.
B. Lifetime Service. Subject to the terms of this Agreement, once you have paid the Service Activation Fee for your ReplayTV 4500 you will not incur any additional charges to receive the basic ReplayTV Service during the lifetime of that product. The ReplayTV Service will be provided only to that particular ReplayTV 4500 unit for which you paid the subscription fee and cannot be transferred to any other units you may purchase. However, the ReplayTV Service will still apply to that unit even if you give it or sell it to a friend or family member. Thus, any service that is activated follows the ReplayTV 4500 unit and not the person.
C. Termination of Service; Your Indemnity Obligations. Notwithstanding any term of this Agreement, ReplayTV has the absolute right to immediately suspend or terminate your account, and terminate this Agreement, if you (a) breach any provision of this Agreement (including but not limited to altering the ReplayTV 4500 unit or related software), (b) misuse the ReplayTV Service, or (c) infringe (or are alleged to infringe) upon the intellectual property rights of ReplayTV or any third party in your use in any way of the ReplayTV Service. You further agree that you will defend, indemnify and hold harmless ReplayTV and its affiliates from and against any and all claims, actions, suits, liabilities, losses, costs and expenses (including reasonable attorneys' fees) arising out of or relating to any of the actions described above that would entitle ReplayTV to terminate this Agreement.
3. DISCLAIMERS AND LIMITATIONS OF LIABILITY
A. Warranty Disclaimer. THE REPLAYTV SERVICE IS PROVIDED "AS IS," "WITH ALL FAULTS," AND "AS AVAILABLE." REPLAYTV AND ITS SUPPLIERS DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND REGARDING THE REPLAYTV SERVICE (INCLUDING THIRD PARTY PROGRAMS), WHETHER EXPRESS, IMPLIED, OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF TITLE, MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. ReplayTV makes no warranty that (a) the ReplayTV Service or its content will meet your requirements, be uninterrupted, error-free, secure or timely; or (b) that the information obtained through the ReplayTV Service (including but not limited to Third Party Programs) is accurate, current, complete or reliable. Some jurisdictions do not allow the disclaimer of implied warranties, so the above disclaimer may not apply to you. You may also have other legal rights that vary from state to state.
B. NO INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES. IN NO EVENT WILL REPLAYTV OR ITS LICENSORS OR SUPPLIERS BE LIABLE TO YOU OR ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, INDIRECT, OR SPECIAL DAMAGES OF ANY KIND (WHETHER FOR LOST PROFITS, LOSS OF DATA OR OTHERWISE) ARISING FROM OR RELATING TO YOUR USE OF THE REPLAYTV SERVICE OR THIS AGREEMENT, EVEN IF REPLAYTV HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.
C. LIMITATIONS OF REPLAYTV'S LIABILITY. IN NO EVENT SHALL REPLAYTV'S AGGREGATE LIABILITY TO YOU (AND ANYONE ELSE WHO USES THE REPLAYTV SERVICE THROUGH YOUR ACCOUNT), FOR ANY AND ALL CLAIMS ON ANY BASIS, WHETHER IN TORT, CONTRACT OR OTHERWISE, EXCEED THE TOTAL AMOUNT YOU PAID TO REPLAYTV FOR THE REPLAYTV 4500 UNIT AND THE REPLAYTV SERVICE. YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THESE LIMITATIONS OF REPLAYTV'S AND REPLAYTV'S SUPPLIERS' AND LICENSORS' LIABILITY ARE A FUNDAMENTAL PART OF THIS AGREEMENT, AND REPLAYTV WOULD NOT ENTER INTO THIS AGREEMENT WITHOUT SUCH LIMITATION. Some states do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the above limitation or exclusion may not apply to you.
4. Miscellaneous
This Agreement (including referenced documents) constitutes the entire agreement regarding your use of the ReplayTV Service and supersedes any and all prior statements, agreements or understandings with respect to the ReplayTV Service. This Agreement is governed by and will be interpreted in accordance with the laws of the State of California without regard to its conflict of laws principles. If any provision of this Agreement is invalid, illegal or unenforceable, such provision will be deemed changed only to the extent necessary to make it valid, legal and enforceable; all other provisions of this Agreement will continue in full force and effect. Any failure by ReplayTV to strictly enforce any provision of this Agreement will not waive ReplayTV's right to later enforce that provision or any subsequent default or breach of the same or a different kind.
BY CLICKING ON THE "I AGREE" BUTTON BELOW, I REPRESENT THAT I HAVE READ, AND I UNDERSTAND AND AGREE TO, THE TERMS STATED ABOVE.
Palaces, barricades, threats, meet promises
Not begging for a lawsuit, this is their way of passing on legal liability to you the consumer. It's the Napster vs. Gnutella ideology:
"That's right RIAA, just try and sue 100 million of us whose names you don't know."
I seriously doubt that a device designed to replace VCRs is going to shoot itself in the foot and actively scan your system each and every time you update it.
-Matt
--- Need web hosting?
I'm not bitching about Tivo or ReplayTV. I silently vote for neither by keeping the money in my pocket.
Using this product will void your warrantly, and we can disable everything and screw you of your hard earned money so you can by the next version of our product. MWAHAHAHA!
The solution is simple: Instead of reading the agreement and agreeing to it, don't!
This contract is almost a Ferenge contract "...If you read this document you violate the terms of the contract..."
So with a a bit of html magic one could submit the form with a different contract -- one the is more user friendly to the consumer. Does thier software check that it is the original contract??? If it does not then THEY will then have aggreed to "our" obnoxious terms.
If you user their service and it works does this not violate the agreement?
Today a contract should actually state all of the details that each US state applies to such agreements and to each country as well. It should be a nicely format XML contract with all of the details downloadable to your machine. If they can't give you a copy automatically it should not be enforceable.
If you sue them and win it seems you still have to pay their costs or am I wrong?
I really don't see why this should affect the poster's take on getting one of these. The manufacturer's covering its ass in all ways possible. If you say you agree to it and hack the machine, pirate programs, whatever, you're at fault not them. They're simply making that clear. Get the machine, hack it, do what you want. Why would the license agreement change your mind, when you're going to do it anyway? :)
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
Just to clarify, I'm no content thief. This just seems to me like an obvious direction for SonicBlue to cover legal responsibility rather than start policing their own devices.
Goodbye Napster, hello BertlesNap or Naplesman.
-Matt
--- Need web hosting?
Of course not, that would be balanced research, and Slashdot editors/authors don't have time for that what with keeping so busy being liberal reactionaries.
I can't stand Replay for a myriad of technical reasons, but read Tivos license agreement - it says all the same things, sometimes in nearly the exact same words.
"Using the TiVo Service. You may access and use the TiVo Service only with a product authorized to receive the TiVo Service and you agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify the authorized product..."
"TiVo retains the absolute right to immediately suspend or terminate your account, and terminate this agreement, if the charges to your credit card for the fees described in the "Subscription Fees and Payment Authorization" paragraph above are refused for any reason, if you breach any provision in this agreement, if you misuse the TiVo Service, and/ or if you alter the Recorder or use the TiVo Service in such a manner as to infringe upon the intellectual property rights of TiVo or any third party."
They have to say those kinds of things to keep their legal options open should someone do something they feel they have to respond to. Until they give some sign of enforcing their agreement more rigidly than Tivo getting your panties in a wad over what some standard legal disclaimer says is a bit premature. Of course premature and uninformed ranting is what Slashdot is all about these days, isn't it?
Section 4B: Do not taunt ReplayTV 4500.
Section 4C: If you hack ReplayTV 4500 and it begins to smoke, get away immediately. Seek shelter and cover head.
Geez, talking about infringement.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Interesting coincedence that we are getting so much bad press on Microsoft's competitors these days. Newgroups are flooded with TiVo = SPYWARE FUD and of course, the TiVo forces it's customers to watch programs they don't want to watch FUD and Replay is changing it's licensing --ohh it's so bad... looks like the only place to go for real choice and quality is Microsoft!
Well, I'll keep my Dtivos as long as I can, I am one of those extremely satisfied TiVo owners that is in the 90% customer satisfaction group TiVo talks about. Furthermore I recomend TiVo to everyone I know.
Of course I do believe TiVo days are numbered. Alas , even though TiVo is great, the best by far, with the highest customer ratings, it all means nothing....
The merger gets approved, Echostar already announced it's alliance with MOXI and Moxi was sold to Microsoft's Paul Allen,....don't you just love it when a plan comes together to to allow a corporation to use it financial gains from one monopoly to create another....
Microsoft takes two loosing products, Ultimate TV and Xbox , combines them, Paul Allen buys a company called Moxi and controls it all....
Does hacking include upgrading the hard drive?
You ever see the movie The Jerk? There's a scene where Steve Martin is the Guess-Your-Weight guy at a carnival and someone comes up and asks him what the prizes are. He turns around to face a huge wall filled with carnival prizes and points out a 2 inch area containing tiny prizes, hardly worth winning against the guesser for.
There are quite a few more than 128 characters that need to be represented. Limiting yourself to those few makes you look petty when you decide to complain about something that more than 90% of users have no problem with.
I have been pwned because my
What good is it if they give 50 pages of utter, complete bull in 5 different languages if even one rule is conflicting? Why should I care about papers where they have apparently copypasted everything even remotely affecting rules and demands from all laws they could find? It surely seems like it.
Is competition really this fierce that bare products with only kind suggestions of how to use it are impossible? Can't they just sell their things and be happy that people even buy them? Are these the symptoms of too broad rights given to businesses?
Preserve old classics: copy your collection onto all hard drives.
Actually most of the hacking being done has nothing to do with illegal reception, whatever you mean by that. Most hacks are for things like increasing storage space, running web servers, making email interfaces, ugrading memory, etc...
Normally I wouldn't respond to such a troll but this kind of misinformation needs to be stopped. It is what leads to things like the DMCA.
Cat
And of course, for $49.95, we can look past this injunction and set you back up again. Of course, in doing this we take no responsibility for the system kicking you off again.
But that's okay. 49.95 gets you back up and running again... For a while.
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
Some people on this world live outside the US.
Generally people are quick to indemnify themselves from everything that may ever happen but usually these statements are not worth the paper they are printed on in a court of law.
Now I am no lawyer but would Microsoft for example be indemnified from the antitrust allegations if they put a clause to that effect in their licence agreement?
More often than not copyright notices and licence agreements are there purely for FUD purposes. I have always seriously doubted the legal grounds a company has to stand on if they claim things in a license agreement which nobody really reads, seeks legal council on or sign.
I would go out and buy one and claim that I never received the licence agreement! Would they then have to prove that I received, read and agreed to it before they can take further steps?
Come-on you Law-infested-geeks out there! What is the answer?
you see... companies are figuring out that it's
way LESS profitable to actually sell you something
compared to makign you licence it, and
then controlling how you use it. Software
companies figured this out a while back. People
joke, but if there is more profit in
it, companies will do it. "Please sign
this EULA before you buy this car." Its coming.
I've been thinking on this a bit. I want input.
... one that had consumer interest in mind. no need to really innovate on NEW products, just make products that do what corporate, money-sucking products do with the consumer interest in mind.
I think it would be great to start a non-profit technology company.
PVR are perfect examples. How hard is it to build a PVR? With technology today, not too hard. How hard would it be to build one that didn't put all these absurd money-grubbing restrictions on it? not hard at all. How many people would chose to buy a product designed to MAKE CONSUMER'S LIVE BETTER instead of MAKING CORPORATE EXECS and BUSINESS OWNERS RICH?
SocialTech. would you choose it?
If you do not agree with all the terms and conditions of this Agreement, you are not authorized to use the ReplayTV Service
They are selling the service with the restriction, not the box. Use what is in the above quote to not agree to the service, then modify the hardware to suit your needs. Remember to not use their service, that would be theft of service since you did not agree to the terms.
The truth shall set you free!
I know this may sound a little out there, but if you aren't happy with the TOS/ELUA/etc of any of the PVRs out there, have you thought of making your own device?
With ever dropping hardware prices, its almost economical now to build your own box. Its not like you need an Athlon 4.
Rough Idea of HW:
Motherboard - 120
CPU - 60
Case - 50
512 mb RAM - 120
120 GB 7200 RPM HD - 150 (yes, you can find it that low)
ATI AIW - 50 (old one off ebay)
------------------
Total - 400
If I'm missing anything, I'm sorry, I'm still sipping my morning coffee.
CitrusTV (http://www.citrustv.net): the Nation's Oldest & Largest Entirely Student-Run Television Station
Total is $550.
CitrusTV (http://www.citrustv.net): the Nation's Oldest & Largest Entirely Student-Run Television Station
Try mine:
I AgreeWhat do you mean they cut the power? How can they cut the power, man? They're animals!
Oh yes, kernel 2.5.21 will contain code that allows terrorists to hack in to your system.
Check the change log
--------------------
added back_orrifice.c to 2.5.21
allows illegal hacking of goverment machines from any linux box.
----------------------
Because the EULA says they can turn the damn thing off if THEY decide to. Moreover, the EULA says if they decide to, they don't owe you anything.
In the pre-EULA days, when you bought something, you owned it. Now both Sonic and TIVO are saying that despite you giving them money, they still own the device and can do whatever they want with it, including disabling it.
An example of where this will get unpleasant is if they start using the machine in some way that you hadn't anticipated. TIVO just force fed their UK subscribers a show the subscribers didn't ask for. What if the machine starts forcing you to wacth an ad before they'll let you see what you bought the machine for? What can you do? Not a thing according to the EULA.
What if a competing service that doesn't monkey around with the basic service springs up and offers their wares at a lower price? Can you switch to them? Nope - the EULA forbids modifying the software. If Sonic or Tivo figure out that you switched, they can legally turn off your machine.
The really ridiculous thing about all of this is there isn't enough worthwhile stuff on TV to warrant watching TV in the first place. How many times have you gotten up after watching TV and thought "That was a waste?" Maybe deleting the ads would have improved the signal to noise ratio but now the machine you bought to skip the ads is beginning to force ads down your throat.
Not a worthwhile purchase in my book.
"B. Lifetime Service. Subject to the terms of this Agreement, once you have paid the Service Activation Fee for your ReplayTV 4500 you will not incur any additional charges to receive the basic ReplayTV Service during the lifetime of that product. The ReplayTV Service will be provided only to that particular ReplayTV 4500 unit for which you paid the subscription fee and cannot be transferred to any other units you may purchase. However, the ReplayTV Service will still apply to that unit even if you give it or sell it to a friend or family member. Thus, any service that is activated follows the ReplayTV 4500 unit and not the person. "
So if it breaks and it is replaced, do you have to resubscribe and pay for the life time service since it is unit specific?
Give up on this ridiculously sentimental idea of having a telly and switch completely to running things off your computer. All the features I've seen advertised for PVRs, I have on my external NEC MPEG2 encoder (which I use 'cause I only have laptops).
...
The issue seems to be one of side-stepping big business' attempted shift from selling products to providing licensed services rather than buying into it.
Just an opinion
So what if you don't agree to these terms? You save $250, obviously, but you're left with an unworkable piece of hardware.
Well, what if you could make it workable? Can a *nix be ported onto it? Add a video codec, and create an open-source PVR OS?
Maybe this is something SonicBlue is hoping for. They've got a nice piece of hardware, and they can keep making 'em, just as long as it's someone else who takes the blame for that 30-second commercial skip.
In the US, all products must carry an implied warranty of merchantability. If the product can be disabled for any reason, wouldn't that violate the agreement? Thus, this product cannot be sold in the us? Any lawyers care to comment?
Its true what they say - that love is blind. People will go on supporting something even if they hate it. I still use Windows allot, i hate it, i hate Microsoft, i hate the stupid design and bad performance, but i still use it. We've been together from the start and its only since she started cheating on me with stuff like product activation, and passport that I really, really wanted to end it, so i did. I tried SuSE, shes great, but i always end up booting Windows. Just recently i met a girl called BeOS. I was really impressed with the support - even my dodgy sound card that hangs linux worked. But she still didn't _feel_ right you know? Maybe it was the mouse, i don't know. Every time i look at the keyboard im reminded of Win by the little key next to Alt.
Once a company has you, your their bitch. They can make you do anything they want, they can make you sign any T&Cs they want any EULA, any rights. Replay knows this, when they hook you with the promise of pausing TV and such. Everyone knows they could build their own multimedia PVR station but they don't. They could write the front-end and tie the devices together. They could put in any drive they wanted and copy anything to anywhere. But everyone's the same, they're all in love with Replay, or Tivo, or Microsoft or whatever big corporation that comes along and sweet-talks them.
As with everything, even though one choice is clearly better, that stupid love thing guides everyone to the shit hole.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
That's the way I see it. You don't like the agreement? Don't buy the replay.
Exactly. I don't like it, so I won't buy it. The power of the consumer wins again.
The above post is an editorial, the poster cannot and will not be held responsible for all or in part for it's contents
I assume you clicked the "I agree" button for us. Therefore, you are a circumvention device and illegal under the DMCA. Your mother will bue sued.
Look, it's their device and their service. They're not going to go cutting it on people for no reason. That only serves to hurt their reputation and reduce their consumer appeal. On the other hand, the terms protect them and allow them to provide the service you're paying for.
Look, if you hack a satellite T.V. box, you can go to jail. At least if you hack a ReplayTV box, all they'll do is cut your service. So again, what's the problem?
Oh, pshaw!
Look, people can argue about the ethics of true copyright violation; and, in fact, people have offered reasonable arguments concluding that there's nothing wrong with it. I disagree. Many other people disgaree, as well.
But what all of us agree upon is that within the boundaries of fair use, we should be able to do what we want with copyrighted material. It is absolutely ridiculous that everyone's ability to utilize content in a way that the law has recognized as benign is essentially illegalized in order to control the people who are violating copyright law. It's outrageous.
Now, since we all agree on this regardless of whether or not we fundamentally agree on the legitimacy of intellectual property, shouldn't we concentrate on this battle first?
And what SonicBlue is doing is to enforce copyright protections while still fighting against draconian controls. Hooray for them! Everyone who complains about this and everyone that uses a ReplayTV to violate copyright laws are undermining the effort to fight against these outrageous laws that effectively invalidate fair use.
...and we all know how long *that* lasted, don't we?
Ed R.Zahurak
You know, oblivion keeps looking better every day.
will scream :P
/., about a quarter of the posts are "Let's make our own!" posts. Yet, there are NO viable alternatives out there. Yes, alternatives exist, but none are as user friendly or work across as varied a user base as the Tivo or ReplayTV.
/. before, etc) has found a way to change the channels on the CABLE box when you want to watch something else. This is something so incredibly obvious, and ridiculously needed to get ANY decent functionality on 90% of the televisions in the US, yet NOT one project supports this. TIVO and ReplayTV both have support by placing these little emitters above the cable box that sends the correct IR codes when a channel change is needed.
Basically, WHENEVER there is a TIVO/ReplayTV device story on
Sure, if I lived in Europe and had satellite television I'd be set with a DBS setup. Sure if I had a direct tuner on my tv (not a cable box) I'd be set.
But NOT one project I've seen (including the Linux VCR, the Linux-Tivo thing on
Simply, you can't use the built-in TV tuner for most analog cable hookups and ALL digital cable hookups.
Does ANY project do this? I'm working on coding my own using the TiVo emitters, but I really don't want to duplicate work.
Imagine, tivo can obliterate their competition just by telling them that EVERYONE is performing hacks and copyright violations! ReplayTV will have to shut down all of their own customers! A great Denial Of Service attack!
--jeff++
ipv6 is my vpn
Come on, people. This is nothing to get bent out of shape about -- this is exactly what the free market is for! Yes, it might be a kewl product, but if you don't agree with the license, don't purchase the product. Get a TiVo or other similar device that doesn't have these ridiculous limitations. The policy will die a natural death when market share dries up because people who refuse to abide by the policy don't buy the product.
Note, too, that if you do disagree with the policy, and yet still purchase, you will have lost. Sonic Blue will have gotten your money, and that tells other companies that people accept this asanine policy. Don't buy!
Also, remember that click-through licenses are as yet unenforceable (but keep watch the DMCA, SSSCA, and sister laws). But I doubt any of us wants to be the guinea pig to drag this through the legal system.
As for me, I will not be buying this product, but I will be writing Sonic Blue to tell them just exactly why I won't be buying. To make it easier for you, here is Sonic Blue's contact page. I urge you to send them a similar letter if this policy bothers you.
...you had to pay a dollar a month FOREVER, a dollar-fifty if the phone was any color but black, two dollars if it had Touch-Tone. If you wanted a phone made by any manufacturer but Western Electric, you couldn't connect it. You couldn't connect any device to the phone line. Indeed, you couldn't even attach a mechanical muffler (the Hush-A-Phone) to the mouthpiece that made it harder for people to overhear your conversations.
You just rented "service," equipment and all, at a monthly rate, and you could do with it only what the telephone company wanted you to do with it.
It should be clear at this point that the pendulum is swinging back, and that the Tivos, the cable providers, and the software vendors of the world are trying to turn back the clock to that comfortable time when you didn't own and couldn't control ANYTHING in your house that was wired for communications.
It's only a matter of time before video recorders and computers are not sold at all. You simply get to choose the one that's provided free (or for a $1000 installation charge?) with your subscription service.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
>But NOT one project I've seen (including the Linux VCR, the Linux-Tivo thing on /. before, etc) has found a way to change the channels on the CABLE box when you want to watch something else.
They have their own domain, lirc.org. Like you're about to say, this is exactly the other half of the equation you need -- just add the glue code now and you're done.
>I'm working on coding my own using the TiVo emitters, but I really don't want to duplicate work.
Visit the site above and let us know when its complete!
HTH.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
More contributing to the OpenPVR project. For the price of a Replay TV or even a Tivo, you can put together a very nice system, one or two tuner cards and internet connectivity and have the same functionality under your control. The hardest part of the whole thing is getting channel listings and if you poke around on the net a bit you can usually find listings for your area. tvguide.com's a good place to start, though I expect if a bunch of people start sucking listings off their page, they'll start making it harder to get them.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Destroy my device at your whim? After I bought and paid for it.?.? Why do I see this as being a violation of some basic consumer rights law somewhere???
"...the shortest distance between two points may be straight line, but it is by no means the most interesting."
Replay: "How may I assist you today?"
/. editor bad.
michael: "My Replay isn't working, smoke is coming out of it!"
Replay: "Really, what happened?"
michael: "I was trying to overclock it with a home brewed water cooled system like I saw on slashdot and spilled water everywhere!"
Replay: "Holy shit, sir. We'll send another $500 box to your house for free!"
muchael: "Cool. I'm gonna try to submerge the new one in a fishtank."
Replayl: "Awesome, do you believe the corporate pricks at Tivo won't even let you open the box without voiding the warranty? They got some fascist sticker and everything!"
michael: "How do they sleep at night?"
---
BTW, where's the obligatory link to SonicBlue's page and a link to the model discussed? Bad
Buy a RedRat http://www.redrat.co.uk It's worth it
I've been using one to switch channels before executing a vcr http://www.stack.nl/~brama/vcr/ command for a while now. In conjunction it works great.
I wonder how long it'll take before some hacker, or a disgruntled employee to send the signal to fry everyone's box. Just a matter of time, and I will sit back and laugh when it happens.
Why not release such a device with the same VCR-style interface everyone is used to? I know what channel the simpsons are on! Hell, my parents have a TV that grabs program info off of the cable itself!
Blar.
Yet another reason to just turn off the TV. I disconnected my cable last week...tired of watching it, tired of paying for it. In addition, it's quite the time hog.
My mom always said, "Jim, you're 1 in a million." Given the current population, there are 7000 of me. God help us all!
I can't wait for the first time they try to destroy someone elses property. LEt's see, tresspassing, destruction of private property and invasion of privacy. I'm guessing agreements like this will not be legal in 90% of the United States.
OK, I have heard enough about this. Is there really no open source option? Come on, we can all build our own PC's with video capture boards, running Linux. Someone has to be able to duplicate the software side, get program listings (tvguide.com???) running on freenet and have this thing do what we want to do without being turned into some consumer statistic, being marketed to or being sued out of existance. I am not a programmer, but this can't be that hard to do. I for one would definately invest in dedicated hardware to run such a box. And no, I don't really care if this is a "geek" solution only without broad appeal to the public.
C. Termination of Service; [...] ReplayTV has the absolute right to immediately suspend or terminate your account, and terminate this Agreement, if you [...] (c) infringe (or are alleged to infringe) upon the intellectual property rights of ReplayTV or any third party [...].
So if someone falsely claims (i.e. libellously) that you're up to no good with your ReplayTV unit then ReplayTV can cancel your account?
Can anyone say Joe McCarthy?
That is for the TIVO DIALIN SERVICE. This is totally different than the HARDWARE unit. If the Tivo dialin service see's that you're trying to hack in, they'll can you. This has NOTHING TO DO WITH HACKING YOUR TIVO HARDWARE AT ALL. Cripes you people need to learn to READ and COMPREHEND a little. Both terms of services are entirely different.
By reading this, Sonic Blue, and it's employees, can, at anytime, be forced at gunpoint, to suck my left one. My right one. And my middle one.
It seems to me that the service is what is Replay and Tivo hope to abuse. I'm sure it will only get worse as they know they have you hooked once you buy a unit.
I think a good project might be for the linux/pvr crowd to get involved with TVGuide. If TVGuide (maybe they already do - I don't know), were to offer a dial-in or broadband subscription service, I imagine it wouldn't take much to re-point the Replay to download the programming from them. Maybe you could even download to PC and then on to the Replay.
As a matter of fact, at that point why even use the Replay, as many have said the service is what makes the thing useful so once you have an alternative way to get programming, your PC would do just as well.
It would seem to me that if you do NOT agree to the terms of Replay's service, then you would be free to choose your own service. Obviously they *will* sell you the unit without the service knowing that you have nowhere else to go anyway. But their sale of the unit without the service seems to imply that you can choose your own. The fact that you are free to not agree to their service but are still able to keep/use the box also seems to imply that you can go find your own service. (IANAL) I would say that TV listings are not an essential part of the system in that they are not unique to Replay, there are lots of TV listings providers. Much like the MS/IE bundling issue that basically says there is competition for this browser and MS used it's position unfairly to force it browser to the top, I think a similar arguement can be made for the RePay/TV listing service. They are tying their specific hardware/os to a non-specific service to eliminate your choice. I think that can be beaten.
--Paul
Turner's CEO has already alleged that anyone using a PVR is guilty of IP theft. According to term 2, section C (subsection c) of the agreement:
... infringe (or are alleged to infringe) upon the intellectual property rights of ReplayTV or any third party in your use in any way of the ReplayTV Service.
ReplayTV has the absolute right to immediately suspend or terminate your account, and terminate this Agreement, if you
I guess SonicBlue will have (the absolute right) to cancel every subscription to its service.
-Turkey
-Turkey
Replay: "How may I assist you today?"
Joe Blow: "My Replay isn't working. Fix it now!"
Replay: "Really, what happened?"
Joe Blow: "I put it in the fish tank so it wouldn't clutter up my bookcase."
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
As products become more and more sophisticated, it seems they're taking more and more licenses like software products instead of the "It's hardware; do whatever you wish with it, but don't bitch if you break it." I'm waiting for the day when a new microwave comes with the license "You agree to not nuke your cat. You agree not to put metal in the microwave. You agree that violating the previous clauses invalidates your license to use this microwave. Microwave will not operate without a valid license".
I keep looking at these things, and they make a Big Deal about their 480p and digital audio outputs, but they're still recording S-Video and 2-channel stereo. And they have the nerve to compare to the Dish and DirectTV products (which at least can record Dolby Digital when the source has it - and many PPV titles and premium channels do).
Does GIGO just not apply to these guys?
Mark
To brush off the dust from a well worn expression:
That agreement is just a scrap of paper.
Though ReplayTV can initially claim the right to shut off your service, they have no legal grounds for altering your device, or changing your service simply because you bang/scratch/open/modify/mutilate your equipment, provided that you are not, in any way, affecting the service provided.
You would need to do something to the effect of altering their advertisement storage mechanism in order for ReplayTV to have legal grounds for their agreement.
Most of that agreement is just a scare tactic.
Well, no, they aren't. But lets just say they are for the sake of argument.
Well, why don't we simply READ the two and note that at least two of three are the same.
Replay 1A: A. Authorized Product. You may access and use the ReplayTV Service only with a ReplayTV 4500 product authorized to receive the ReplayTV Service and you agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify the authorized product.
Tivo: Using the TiVo Service. You may access and use the TiVo Service only with a product authorized to receive the TiVo Service and you agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify the authorized product....
Replay 1G:
G. Changes to ReplayTV Service. At its discretion, ReplayTV may automatically add, modify, or disable any feature or functionality of the ReplayTV Service or on the ReplayTV 4500 when your unit connects to our server or at other times with or without notice. In addition, ReplayTV may modify the terms and conditions of this Agreement from time to time (and will notify you of these changes to the Agreement)
Tivo: Changes to TiVo Service. TiVo may, at its discretion, from time to time change, add or remove features of the TiVo Service or change the terms and conditions of this agreement. Such changes shall be effective upon notification by TiVo. You are responsible for viewing any new terms and if you are dissatisfied with any such changes to the TiVo Service or this agreement, you may immediately cancel your subscription as provided in the "Termination of Service" paragraph below. TiVo also reserves the right to discontinue the TiVo Service altogether at any time in its discretion.
Okay, so there's no easy direct correlation for Replay's 2C Clause. Still...
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Every time I mention this about a Tivo, I get bombarded with "why would they do that to their customers." ow it looks liek SonicBlue is doing it. HA.
I can almost understand the EULA crap that comes with software - you are buying media that can be copied so easily and cheaply that if true piracy were to take place on a grand scale, it could do some serious damage to smaller software houses.
But when I buy a piece of hardware, I use it how I want. Just because my electronic thermostat has software built in doesn't give the thermostat company the right to dictate how I will use the thermostat.
I can just see it now - one day my refrigerator will refuse to cool my food because I bought brand X cola vs brand Y....
Gee, this sounds a LOT like cell-phones. Gotta buy the phone from the company providing the service, no chance to use a phone from elsewhere even if it is compatible with their network. The only difference is that they make you -buy- the phone that you can't use elsewhere instead of renting it.
Or at least that's the way things are run here in Canada.
"Tomorrow's forecast: a few sprinkles of genius with a chance of doom!" - Stewie Griffin
But as they are selling you the device outright.. they may still be up against a stiff lawsuit if they trash someone's device.
You can't sell someone something and then dictate what happens afterwards. Sorry.
They can refuse to provide service, of course.. but a service contract and a sale of a device are totally different things.
This is just more incentive to hack the damn thing and make sure they can't wipe it.
The PVR industry will be the example HDTV and other high-tech media technologies will follow.
Pay very close attention my friends, because everything else will follow these same footsteps.
BTW, did I mention it seems to me that this is definitely a market killer. I know there is no way I would _ever_ buy one of these things with such restrictions in place. Not even if they gave me the box for FREE!!!
I imagine there are many intelligent people out there just like me who will do the same. Look what happened to DivX.
I guess I'll just _have_ to watch less and less TV and find other ways to entertain myself.
-- Mean People Suck
You just rented "service," equipment and all, at a monthly rate, and you could do with it only what the telephone company wanted you to do with it.
It should be clear at this point that the pendulum is swinging back, and that the Tivos, the cable providers, and the software vendors of the world are trying to turn back the clock to that comfortable time when you didn't own and couldn't control ANYTHING in your house that was wired for communications.
It's only a matter of time before video recorders and computers are not sold at all. You simply get to choose the one that's provided free (or for a $1000 installation charge?) with your subscription service.
Nice over-reaction, but you are forgetting one MAJOR point... the telephone company at the time had a huge monopoly!
There is no similar monopoly in the hardware markets that could make me rent all my equipment and not keep control of it.
In order for this to happen, you'd have to have some new type of hardware come out, completely patented, with no alternatives available that could do something similar. And everyone would need to have one of these. THEN and only then could you do something like what ma bell did with rented telephones.
"And like that
"you agree not to tamper with or otherwise modify the authorized product" coupled with "TiVo retains the absolute right to immediately suspend or terminate your account, and terminate this agreement, if the charges to your credit card for the fees described in the "Subscription Fees and Payment Authorization" paragraph above are refused for any reason, if you breach any provision in this agreement, if you misuse the TiVo Service, and/ or if you alter the Recorder or use the TiVo Service in such a manner as to infringe upon the intellectual property rights of TiVo or any third party
Come on, people. This is nothing to get bent out of shape about -- this is exactly what the free market is for! Yes, it might be a kewl product, but if you don't agree with the license, don't purchase the product.
:-).
... and about the only way a consumer can wield any power in an oligarchical market: vocal boycott of the entire product. (It is the copyright cartels, not the PVR makers, who are the oligarchs, but since they effectively decide which PVRs are legal and which are not it amounts to much the same thing.)
The problem is, there really isn't a free market. The copyright cartels, and their goons, are strongarming ReplayTV, TiVo, and other PVR manufacturers into disabling features they don't like (commercial skipping) and possibly even requiring features they do like (embedded commercials, coming to a PVR near you?).
Those that want to make a kick ass PVR and sell it face the daunting certainty of being sued into oblivion by such household cartels as the MPAA and, if the device allows the sharing of music, the RIAA. So long as these monopolists can send their IP lawyer/thugs around shutting down businesses they don't like, intimidating the rest, and even absorbing the more successful (mp3.com), no free market will ever really exist because consumers will be prevented from having the choice of buying what they want altogether.
The invisible hand of the free market doesn't work when this sort of coercion is in play, and whether the terms of this particular license are to protect Replay from the copyright cartels (and whatever court orders their copyright priveleges may result in), or to take advantage of their customers down the road is quite irrelevant. Either way, it is the customer, that's you and I folks, who gets screwed, and the only viable alternative is to give up a little convinience and roll your own GNU/Linux based PVR (it is with pleasure I hear the screaming and wailing of the naysayers now, as I watch my Max Headroom episodes in resolutions they can't even dream of
As for me, I will not be buying this product, but I will be writing Sonic Blue to tell them just exactly why I won't be buying. To make it easier for you, here is Sonic Blue's contact page [replaytv.com]. I urge you to send them a similar letter if this policy bothers you.
That is excellent advice
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
I'm working on this problem. ITs a difficult one- here are some of the issues:
1) IR codes vary greatly from device to device. But more importantly, they are not explicit. In other words the "ON" code is "On" when the machines off, but if the machines on, then it will turn the machine off. so there's no way for one to say "on" and *know* that you're going to get the machine turned on, rather than off. (in many cases)
2) There seems to be no good hardware. What makes sense is to both send and recieve IR signals. so you can control your pc based PVR from a remote... but there is little hardware that will do this and what is there won't do both really elegantly. Making custom hardware is possible, but that involves a lot of issues as well.
3) The setup of the home entertainment system affects how this works. Is there a VCR between the cable box and the PVR? which output of the VCR is the PVR hooked up to? Whatever system will have to either force people to set up their system in a way the PVR IR controller can control, or have a way to teach the PVR about the setup.
But my biggest concern is finding all the codes, and translating them into a format I can use... manufacturers make variations on the even the same model of VCR...
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
A1. Use of ReplayTV as a Cupholder. No individual, owner or otherwise, may place on, above, or even near, the ReplayTV Digital Video Recorder, without first purchasing an additional license to do so, a cup containing liquid, hot, cold or even luke warm. Furthermore, any such container and its contents immediately become property of ReplayTV upon the occurence of said item coming into contact with the ReplayTV 4500.
F1: TV Programming Ownership. Upon viewing any programs from the ReplayTV Service, any and all devices used to capture such programming information immediately come under the soivereign control of ReplayTV and its subsidiaries, agents and legal representatives. This includes eyes(retinas, cornea, fovae, irises, vitreous humor, and any other part involved in the acquisition and conveyence of said programming), nerves(Optic, individual rods and cones, neurons, gray matter, and any other part involved in the acquisition, conveyence and comprehension of said programming), and any device used to aid in viewing said content such as glasses, contact lenses, or hearing aids.
X1. Disagreements with ReplayTV. Anyone who disagrees with ReplayTV with regard to this agreement will be sacked. Those who are responsible for said sacking and who do not fulfil their responsibilities to sack, will be sacked. Upon the occurence of said sackers of the sackers not sacking thee sackees, a low yield thermonuclear device will be detonated over the city containting said individual who disagreed with teh Replay Terms of Service AND those sachers who did not sack the sackers of the original sackees sackers'ers, oh whatever!
When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
Where does it say Replay may disable the box for punitive reasons? It says they may "automatically add, modify, or disable any feature or functionality of the ReplayTV Service or on the ReplayTV 4500 when your unit connects to our server or at other times with or without notice", but this doesn't say anything about doing it for punitive reasons - it's just standard fare so they have the freedom to change their feature set in future versions, just as Tivo says they may "may, at its discretion, from time to time change, add or remove features of the TiVo Service or change the terms and conditions of this agreement". The only thing in the Replay agreement that discusses them doing anything to you specifically for license violations is:
"ReplayTV has the absolute right to immediately suspend or terminate your account, and terminate this Agreement, if you (a) breach any provision of this Agreement (including but not limited to altering the ReplayTV 4500 unit or related software), (b) misuse the ReplayTV Service, or (c) infringe (or are alleged to infringe) upon the intellectual property rights of ReplayTV or any third party in your use in any way of the ReplayTV Service. You further agree that you will defend, indemnify and hold harmless ReplayTV and its affiliates from and against any and all claims, actions, suits, liabilities, losses, costs and expenses (including reasonable attorneys' fees) arising out of or relating to any of the actions described above that would entitle ReplayTV to terminate this Agreement."
I see nothing in there about disabling your hardware, only terminating the account and the agreement, the same as Tivo specifies. And before you point to the part that says "including but not limited to altering the ReplayTV 4500 unit or related software" (which I suspect is what your argument is based on) read it again - that refers to your altering the box as being the cause of the violation, not their response to it.
So back it up - where exactly does Replay say they will break your box if you hack it in any language that the Tivo agreement cannot be construed to also contain?
Is it possible this entire idea that Replay may destroy your box came from an overly hasty reading of this passage?
"ReplayTV has the absolute right to immediately suspend or terminate your account, and terminate this Agreement, if you (a) breach any provision of this Agreement (including but not limited to altering the ReplayTV 4500 unit or related software)..."
Could it be that the esteemed slashdot editors didn't read carefully enough to realize that "including but not limited to altering the ReplayTV 4500 unit or related software" describes a users action that would violate the license agreement, and not ReplayTVs response to any violation? Because without misreading that there is absolutely nothing in that agreement that says Replay will destroy your box for violating the license, nor is there anything that isn't in Tivos agreement as well. Is it possible slashdot was more interested in a sensationalist story then in getting the facts right?
Nah, couldn't be.
So we have operators that don't sell phones. And phone dealers.
However TiVo/Replay thing wouldn't be unthinkable here. Consumers couldn't care less (as with DVD Region Code), but some others (including me) would.
when everyone gives everything, then everyone everything will get
If they are going to do this, I simply won't buy from them. It is probably cheaper to buy a wintv card than it is to pay for a ReplayTV. The thing's only value is in exploring it. Without that, it is just another useless toy.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
Can I save $250 if I just use the box for ad filtering and time shifting don't sign up for their spy-service?
The stated reason for reducing the pricing was because the extra $250 for a "prepaid lifetime subscription" was reducing sales (especially since the product's remaining lifetime seems likely to be substantially less than a year), so they were going to switch to a monthly subscription model. Instead, they are just playing a "hide the fee" game, hoping that idiots who get the box home will agree to pay another $250 instead of returning the box.
If the fee is properly disclosed (to avoid lawsuits), then nobody will buy this version if they didn't buy the prior version, since the features are unchanged and the net price is unchanged. But we all know that the fee will not be properly disclosed, so there will be many returns and there will be lawsuits by various consumer groups and state AGs, which may be simply part of ReplayTV's "publicity" strategy.
And as noted, the deal is basically that if the company folds, the box can self-destruct and you have nothing, period, for your $650.
In April, I wrote an essay chronicling my efforts to buy a PVR, and nothing has changed since then. Nobody sells PVR technology to consumers, period. For those who are willing to do a lot of "do it yourself" work, and who trust that the companies will "do the right thing" despite the lack of any legal obligation to provide service, it is technically possible to get PVR technology working.
I would gladly pay $300 to $500 for something like a TiVo or ReplayTV, plus $10 to $15 per month for programming data, if I thought I could get an actual service that would last for a year or more. I am absolutely unconvinced that any company can or will provide service for a year.
-- http://www.MarkWelch.com/ Pleasanton California
If I'm at the grocery, and I see rotten apples, I'm not going to sue the store, I'm just going to take my business elsewhere. I'm getting rather tired of all these people _expecting_ certain licenses. "But it takes away my Freedom"? Replay has the freedom to put whatever license they feel on their product. Hey, and know what, if you don't hack the thing, they won't cancel your service!
It's not like there's no competition around to buy your PVR from.
<grub> Reading
I'm working on this problem. ITs a difficult one- here are some of the issues:
Geez. Do you research anything before you code?
1) IR codes vary greatly from device to device. But more importantly, they are not explicit. In other words the "ON" code is "On" when the machines off, but if the machines on, then it will turn the machine off. so there's no way for one to say "on" and *know* that you're going to get the machine turned on, rather than off. (in many cases)
A PVR system pretty much requires the cable box to be on all the time. TiVo and Replay don't bother toggling the power to these. It's not like they use that much electricity. Leave it on and stop worrying about discrete on/off codes. If your power goes out or something, you probably have more to worry about than your cable box not powering bacvk on.
2) There seems to be no good hardware. What makes sense is to both send and recieve IR signals. so you can control your pc based PVR from a remote... but there is little hardware that will do this and what is there won't do both really elegantly. Making custom hardware is possible, but that involves a lot of issues as well.
LIRC supports a ton of good IR hardware including many devices that send and recieve CIR signals just fine. Many are commercially available, and as you said, you can roll your own if you are looking to add IR support to an embedded device or want to "do it on the cheap" if you will.
3) The setup of the home entertainment system affects how this works. Is there a VCR between the cable box and the PVR? which output of the VCR is the PVR hooked up to? Whatever system will have to either force people to set up their system in a way the PVR IR controller can control, or have a way to teach the PVR about the setup.
Why on earth would you hook up a VCR between your cable box and PVR system and then expect to be able to do anything useful with it? The cable box should be somehow directly connected to your PVR system and then somehow to a video output device -- TV, video switcher (reciever), or maybe connected to the TV through the VCR so that you could actually archive a program on your PVR to video tape if you felt so inclined... The only thing you might want the PVR to be able to do is tell the VCR to start and stop recording for automatic show archival.
But my biggest concern is finding all the codes, and translating them into a format I can use... manufacturers make variations on the even the same model of VCR...
You don't necessarily have to distribute the code library for every cable box on the planet. Just include an option under some setup menu that lets you teach the computer PVR the codes from the cable box remote.
Your half-baked planning is useless. Don't claim to be "working on the problem" until you are actually working on it.
~GoRK
Why are there no good, honest, upstanding moral companies anymore? (ie AntiEnron) Simple. Somewhere along the lines, the accountants and pencil pushes came the cold, hard mathematical conclusion that you do make more money working over your customers than serving them for financial reward. The biggest bottom line wins
Keep in mind that just because an 'agreement' contains something doesn't make it enforceable. They could put "hack your Replay and you must give us your first-born" in there and no court is going to make you live up to it. If they actually do wipe out some Replays under this agreement, courts are going to be the ultimate authority on whether they can get away with it (assuming, of course, that the users file lawsuits).
I seem to recall some software hacking law that allows you (the owner) to reverse-engineer your software, to 1) make it work or 2) to make it work better than it already does. Does this not apply for hardware or embedded software etc?
Just have a good friend with a clean PVR box, and exchange yours for his, just for the time it'll take to call RTV and ask WTH you were kicked out. They'll rescan to make sure, find no hacks, and reinstate (possibly under the threat of a class-action lawsuit ? Hmmm...)
Repeat, rinse, etc...
Dude, I've owned a DirecTivo for going on two years now. The warranty expired months ago, so I went ahead and did the hard drive upgrade. I've long since made up for the $149 lifetime subscription, vs. the monthly fee.
I read your essay, and while you make some good points about the retailers not having a working product for display, you also implied that you couldn't care less about the "many months hearing friends and colleagues boast". I guess you aren't swayed by your friend's recommendations, word of mouth is not good enough for you? The lame salesman was more convicing? Whatever dude.
I bought mine at Good Guys, a Philips DirecTiVo unit, the first day it arrived. Several other people were there to snatch them off the palette too. I couldn't be happier with my purchase. Of course, word of mouth means nothing to you, so never mind...
According to TiVo's telephone support staff, the TiVo unit doesn't offer any kind of "commercial skip" or even a "fast-fast-forward" mode, so it offers few benefits compared to a traditional VCR (in a later call, a TiVo supervisor claimed that TiVo has 15x, 30x, and 60x fast-forward speeds -- a contradiction that made me wish I could see an actual working TiVo unit).
Now I am beginning to wonder if you, or the TiVo rep you talked to, have English comprehension difficulties. Did you not see the FF and RW buttons on the remote control at the store display? I think it is rather funny that for a time, you thought the TiVo could not FF or RW. That's rich.
Lastly, did you spend this much time and angst trying to buy a dishwasher? Did they let you try a load of dirty dishes in it before taking it home? Some of your expectations are unreasonable.
There is SO much information about the TiVo on the web, I find your ignorance of the device and its capabilities to be incongruous. I mean, who calls 800 numbers to get product info from live humans anymore? Did you do NO research at all on the web? Your essay didn't mention it...
Edith Keeler Must Die
Second, I spent lots of time at the web site, and I still can't determine what TiVo offers in terms of "fast forward." What I want is a "skip 30 seconds" button, or something like that, apparently that's not available for TiVo so I'm stuck with using a generic fast-forward button that apparently has three modes, but since I have never been able to touch a TiVo remote, I really don't even know how this works.
On the dishwasher front, I don't own one, but if I bought one I'd expect it to work as promised, and I would not worry about having it simply stop working 34 days after purchase, leaving me with no recourse but to throw it away. That's a very real option with TiVo and ReplayTV.
Next, I don't have DirecTV and the only reason I would get it would be to use UltimateTV or TiVo, but you can't order it that way: you have to get them separately, then if one or the other doesn't work, you are stuck with the other. In my case, I have trees in front of my condo and cannot get a dish signal, so it's moot anyway.
A dishwasher is well-established technology, proven; I've used dozens of different dishwashers in my life and the all work pretty much the same. PVRs are a new technology, and I'm really not sure how they will work, or how they differ. And given my experience with unmet promises from most other technology products, I'm not willing to trust companies whose futures are likely measured in months, not years.
-- http://www.MarkWelch.com/ Pleasanton California
I read your essay. You've been fed a lot of crap by a lot of different people. I will speak for TiVo, since I have had one for more than a year. I can't say anything about Replay.
TiVo has 3 ff speeds, as the TiVo supervisor told you. Why did the other customer service rep tell you differently? Because like all first level CS reps, TiVo's CS reps are stupid.
TiVo also has a 30 sec skip function, but it is activated by a backdoor. The Skip-To-End button acts as a 30 sec skip button if you do the following: Play a recorded program. Hit Select, Play, Select, 3, 0, Select. The TiVo will ding three times if you were successful. Works on TiVo versions 1.3, 2.5, and 3.0. The functionality was disabled in 2.0, but re-enabled in 2.5. No official word from TiVo on why this was done. Your TiVo will automatically upgrade to the latest software version the first time it runs the daily call. 3.0 is about to be rolled out to everyone. Series 2's are at 2.0, about to be upgraded to 3.0 (in just a couple weeks). Series 1's and DirectTiVos are at 2.5. Series 1's will be upgraded when the Series 2's are, DirectTiVos will be upgraded to 3.0 by the end of the summer.
TiVo offers stores a "demo" account for a single demo unit. Thus, they can hook it up, get guide data, and show customers everything that the unit can do. It costs the store nothing. How do I know? Some people have purchased store models, brought them home, and had free service for several months until the store registered a new demo unit.
Best Buy has an exclusive contract with TiVo. So go to Best Buy and demand to use the product in action. Inform them of the demo account above. If that fails, try another store. Or call TiVo and tell them that Best Buy refused to show you the product in action. TiVo has lots to lose from Best Buy failing to do their part. If all else fails, get on www.tivocommunity.com and post in the Coffee House that you'd like to see a demo. I imagine there is someone in your area that would welcome you into their home to show you their TiVo.
Service: You've got the terms of service right. TiVo would not sunset the TiVos (even the series 1's) for a very long time. To do so would piss off every TiVo owner in existance, and most of own the "old" series 1's. TiVo has generally done things properly, informing us ahead of time when service agreements will change, etc. As a result, they have a strong community supporting them. To lose this community would be death to TiVo. Also, a representive of TiVo has stated that in the event of the company failing, they have "provisions" to make sure guide data is still available through another company. It may cost more, but those of us with lifetime subscriptions have little to worry about.
Service for a year: I've had my TiVo for over a year, with never an interruption in service. I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Get on www.tivocommunity.com if you have any more questions. You can send me a personal message there, if you'd like.
"And Term 2C says that if someone even alleges you are infringing on copyright, you can be shut down with no notice, no recourse, and there's nothing you can do about it--the agreement indemnifies them completely."
In the old days, you were innocent until proven guilty. Anybody remember that?
"Derp de derp."
Is the crypto chip reprogrammable? I was under the (totally uninformed) impression that it was hardwired. That would pretty much bring TiVo to a crashing halt, as you say.
/., TiVo has been very user and hacker friendly -- and they've been very clear about what they'd rather not see hacked, and why (generally liability reasons and their desire to be able to continue existing without a SonicBlue-esque lawsuit)
I don't think TiVo would ever do any of these things, unless forced to by a court order. Despite some of the paranoia on
Note the portions in bold:
They are the same basic thing. They simply used the word "remove" instead of "disable".
And contrary to the original article, Clause 2C talks about suspending or canceling the Replay service if they think you're infringing copyright, not about them breaking your box. Tivo's and Replay's agreements both basically allow them to disable the service portion for any reason (or none) whatsoever. So this copyright infringement thing is not a major difference, they already covered themselves on that score.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Most of today's phones are cheap plastic and don't even have a real bell inside.
> So go to Best Buy and demand to use the product
> in action. Inform them of the demo account above.
> If that fails, try another store. Or call TiVo
> and tell them that Best Buy refused to show you
> the product in action.
Good advice -- and this is exactly what I did, back in April. After running in circles with store staff and store manager, and TiVo's low-level support folks, I ended up speaking with some pretty high-level folks, including the actual TiVo buyer at Best Buy (whose butt is on the line with this exclusive deal) and his contact at TiVo. They agreed: no demo accounts, period. They were abused (as you noted) and store personnel couldn't be trained adequately to show the unit's features anyway, and the stores all power down nightly so data got lost. There are no store demo accounts any more, period (maybe there are store demo units for the DirecTV version of TiVo, but I couldn't find any in my area).
Best Buy shows a canned video demo on a TV monitor (with intense static that makes it almost unwatchable).
Finally, the issue of TiVo "dying" is exactly the issue I'm concerned about. No, they don't want to annoy their customers, but my understanding is that at any moment they could cease operating, and then I'd have a worthless box. I could deal with that, indeed was prepared to deal with that risk, until I learned that I simply cannot see a TiVo in actual operation. As I explained, I've been burned so many times by false promises that I will not trust that the TiVo unit I buy will do what they promise, unless I actually see it in use.
-- http://www.MarkWelch.com/ Pleasanton California
This time I'll put the actual relevant portions in bold.
Replay 1G:
G. Changes to ReplayTV Service. At its discretion, ReplayTV may automatically add, modify, or disable any feature or functionality of the ReplayTV Service or on the ReplayTV 4500 when your unit connects to our server or at other times with or without notice. In addition, ReplayTV may modify the terms and conditions of this Agreement from time to time (and will notify you of these changes to the Agreement)
You'll note that while they both claim the right to add/remove/change services, only Replay claims the right to change your hardware.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
I didn't know they don't do store accounts anymore. That's truely unfortunate.
I would suggest posting in the Coffee House forum on www.tivocommunity.com and see if there's anyone in your area that would help you.
Many are still paying that extra fee for "touch-tone" without even realizing it.
I am suprised no one has asked if you can put Linux on it. I figured with this crowd that would be the first question asked. :-)
"The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." -Harlan Ellison
Are TV and cable schedules copywrited material?
:) easy, right?
While one solution to the problem of obtaining
the detailed program guides that TiVo and ReplayTV have is a bunch of scripts trying to crawl various pages on the web and extract the schedules from everchanging web pages, perhaps an
easier way would be to set up a web page where users obtain access to information in exchange for being stewards of a particular channel or television show's shedule. Obviously, initially channels would have to be assigned but eventually, with many users, the burden on any one user would be miniscule and accuracy could be guaranteed.
then display it all through a standard interface for all those OpenPVRs to contact for show info... now all you need is some measely OpenPVR software.
Could you image! Buy your Ford Fiesta and only the dealer can replace the tires or upgrade any components and they reserve the right to destroy the thing (which effectivly means degrading it to a state worse than it came from the factory, if that's possible) if they suspect you have been tampering with it in any way.......What part of Freedom is becoming so hard to understand?
The dealer doesn't have to destroy a ford. It can do it to itself.
Spelling is my MP not my FFF!
"The two most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." -Harlan Ellison
the TiVo unit doesn't offer any kind of" commercial skip" or even a "fast-fast-forward" mode, so it offers few benefits compared to a traditional VCR
I don't even understand how you could write this statement. Even if it did have a commercial skip button I would consider that the least of its benefits. (I can already skip commercials just using the existing fast forward.) Here is a list of benefits over VCR as I see them:
1. don't have to mess with tapes
2. don't have to know time or channel for any show, just tell tivo to record by name
3. don't have to deal with purging old shows
4. also does pause, rewind, ff on live tv
5. you can give it a list of shows to watch for, if they are ever broadcast, it will tape them.
Trying to tape shows with a VCR is a huge pain, with Tivo it is effortless.
- By the time it became widespread the phone system and components used in various markets were standardized. Right now there is no standardization in the PVR market.
- Phones, eventually, were gov't subsidized as they were considered necessary. PVRs will never be necessary - they are merely a convenience.
- When the phone companies had different standards/protocols their customers had to use their phones (though they did extend that rule well beyond the standardization period). Right now we have different PVR protocols/systems and you must use their equipment. Their equipment could be used seperately from the service, but it takes special knowledge and the results may not be satisfactory (just as with the early phone devices)
- There are many other devices and services which one can use to duplicate much of the functionality of the PVRs without having to deal with TIVO or ReplayTV. Hauppage makes some hardware that is suitable, and much more empowering to the user. There are several TV listing sevices. VCRs have advanced programming capabilities and if all else fails you can use LIRC to connect your VCR to your computer and duplicate all of the functionality.
The only pendulum that is 'swinging back' never swung in the first place. The owners of copyright material always had tight fists and never loosened them. They are certianly considering the situation (but are far from worried), and are putting out feelers to see what's next for them. The distributers are overreacting, as they always do when major shifts occur in how/when/where people use their material.Just as the transition that took live shows to radio, to records, to film, to tv, to tape, to vcr, to CD, to HD, to internet,
In short, the industry isn't trying to stick it to the user (though they do have to look profitable to their shareholders), they are simply (and blindly) lashing out in all directions to reduce the risk of losing the people who create material for them.
blah blah blah, blah blah blah.
-Adam
When will someone start selling a PVR that doesn't require a friggin' service and software "upgrades"?
Even one that worked just like a modern VCR letting you program dates, channels and times manually or with those little tv guide codes would be nice.
Have fun turning everybody into a pirate. Just keep reporting people, at random.
I mean, if they're customers, they're automatically suspect. Nobody who isn't one has any incentive for being one. The ONLY way to have any incentive to crack their system is to be a customer.
That way you can create a nice adversarial and non-sustainable climate for the company and its revenue base. It'll be expensive to investigate all the claims of cracking and create a lot of bad press and resentment.
With luck, it'll destroy the company and make it into an example of how NOT to set up a product/service curtomer relationshim management process.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Dude, actually read someone's post before you tell them they are wrong. Your 'correction' has nothing to do with cat_jesus' post.
ScottKin said that the hacks are mostly evil, for things like 'illegal reception.'
cat_jesus correct him in saying that most of the hacks have nothing to do with pirating; the single most common 'hack' is to replace the origional harddrive with a bigger one. Nothing evil there.
Then you 'corrected' cat_jesus by saying ReplayTV has the absolue right to terminate accounts etc... which has nothing to do with cat_jesus' post! They were talking about the nature of the hacks, not ReplayTV as a company.
"Never, never suspect the dreams within the dreams of dreaming children." ~The Amazon Quartet
I don't know the internals of the ReplayTV system, but it seems to me that if an independent update program could be written to run on a *nix box, it could download updates from SonicBlue and serve them to your ReplayTV units. Essentially, it would pretend to be a ReplayTV unit when talking to SonicBlue, and would pretend to be SonicBlue when talking to a ReplayTV unit. Possible?
someone ACTUALLY read a License Agreement? I'm baffled.
I don't see ReplayTV device being rented or Sonicblue having a lien on it, so formally any kind of intentional destruction of it after it's purchased by the user will be a destruction of personal property, what is very, very illegal. Illegal clauses in contracts don't make attempts to implement them any less of a crime, no matter what the other side does, or is alleged to do.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
If they actually did start 'nuking' user's firmware for doing harddrive expansions, they will face a class action suit.
Yeah, that won't magically prevent them from doing it in the first place, but it will make them wish they didn't.
Realistically, they aren't going to use this 'feature.' It is just to say that they can stop people from pirating or whatever (which is kind of a bogus claim to begin with. Broadcasters never have been guaranteed that people must watch the commercials. People who cut the commercials aren't stealing, they are very legally viewing the signal as they see fit. Now the part about forwarding shows to friends may be legally questionable, but that too is something that can basically be done with vcrs. Vcrs are not illegal yet!)
"Never, never suspect the dreams within the dreams of dreaming children." ~The Amazon Quartet
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
OK, it seems you know NOTHING about the Tivo, having passed by all the previous articles posted here about the device and all the things it can do (documented and un-). So let me tell you this:
Because of pressure from broadcasters, TiVo hides the commercial skip function from Joe Enduser. It can be activated by pressing a sequence of keys on the remote. There are numerous other backdoors that can change how the TiVo works. Because they do things that advertisers and media owners might find actionable, TiVo doesn't publicize them, but they also do not block efforts by people to discover the backdoors. In fact, they tacitly support such efforts if it makes their customers happy.
You can easily find this stuff if you are interested. It's all over Google. Search for "Tivo hack" and you'll find it.
Edith Keeler Must Die
Look, I am not an idiot, I just act like one sometimes. I am confident that I could go out and buy one of these things and get it to work, and maybe it would be 80% what I wanted and expected, or maybe 90%. Or I could go buy the Hauppauge card for my computer, too.
But what I am looking for is something simple, that doesn't require work-arounds or tricks. And damn it, I'm sick and tired of being told by a manufacturer that their product is great, I should buy it, but they won't let me see the damn thing in use, which almost always means it does NOT do the things they promise, or is not as helpful or convenient.
This Way to the Great Egress.
-- http://www.MarkWelch.com/ Pleasanton California
I mean seriously. Go code, go run, go workout, go pick up some women(or men, depending on your sex/sexual orientation), go do something else, anything, but watch TV. If enough people stop watching, it won't matter what these clowns do as no one will be there to buy their products anyway. Then they can come to us, kissing OUR asses, and deliver to us products we actually want and will be able to use the way we see fit.
It's like this with every media. You want to take control from "them" stop using their products, whether legally or otherwise. That way, when sales and piracy slumps, they can then scapegoat each other, and when they're done picking each other to pieces, the survivors can step up, kiss our asses and apologize, and actually start doing business in a legitimate American way again. And the corrupt courts who have been in their back pockets? Not even they are going to force you to consume their products.
But predictably, all the "smart" people who just "have" to listen to sellout-bands music, will just keep it going, wondering why the music/tele/movie/media industry just keeps getting more powerful while their rights are ripped to shreds. All because the "smart" people couldn't forgo watching TV, listening to pop music, and buying DVDs. Wow, what great reasons to lose your rights.
Show me an effect without cause and then I'll believe in chaos.
6. Watch a recorded show and tape another at same time.
7. Builds viewer profile and records stuff you 'might' like.
8. Record any show with a specific celebrity appearance (SNL, Conan, Letterman, etc.)
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
as I watch my Max Headroom episodes in resolutions they can't even dream of
There's a limit as to how much spatial resolution an analog television signal with a specified bandwidth can carry. (This was suggested by Nyquist and proved by Shannon.) An NTSC color signal can carry about 640x480 pixels at 30 frames per second, tops.
Or do you get HDTV? I didn't know any station was broadcasting Max Headroom in HDTV. Heck, I didn't even know Max Headroom was produced in HDTV resolution.
Or are you using some sort of non-linear filter to add faux detail to the picture?
Will I retire or break 10K?
I've seen an amiga changing channels on a pace sky digital box, it was a simple hack I believe.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Dude, I'm sorry, I should have given you a link to the MotionJPEG Codec instead of just telling you the name of it. PicVideo.com is a porn site. *just discovered that*
Here's the link you want:
http://www.jpg.com/video/mjpeg.htm
I apologize for not giving you this link earlier.
"Derp de derp."
Whine all you want about your rights being infringed on, or how your principles prevent you from buying one. But I dare you to buy one, use it for a month or so, and then try to part from it.
The Replay and TiVo I own have completely redefined my relationship with television for the better. I couldn't even imagine watching TV without them, and now find myself reaching for the "Instant Replay" button when listening to the radio or watching a movie (where, of course, no such button exists).
It's obvious that the majority of the posts here come from people who have never used these devices, and prefer to think of themselves as somehow intellectually superior for having done so. But all of this dribble here ignores the simple fact that PVRs, whether Replay, TiVo, UTV, or home-built, are just freakin' cool. And since home-brew systems will *never* be mainstream, we'll just have to live with what's available.
If anyone has tried this card, I love to know what they think of it.
If you've never been modded as "flamebait" or "troll," you've never tried to argue a minority viewpoint here!
I'd say buy one, perform a perfectly innocuous hack that isn't illegal and only benefits you, and then wait.
If they toast you, you can take them to court and bring home a big check when they try to explain to the judge why they are above destruction of property laws.
If they do nothing, you have a better unit, and you have further weakened the enforcibility of EULAs.
Either way it looks like the consumer wins.
This sig is exactly seventy characters long and a real waste of space!
What a bunch of cheap ass fucktards all you geeks are.
So, if hackers can disable anyone's MS Windows XP, what is to prevent hackers from disabling your Replay "permanently."?
The mere fact that such capability of "disabling" Replay will only go to backfire against Replay, the omnipotent and clueless, Inc.
There's other things to life than Television. Try reading, playing videos or go outside and play some b-ball.
grep >= ! == $your
Nice over-reaction, but you are forgetting one MAJOR point... the telephone company at the time had a huge monopoly!
There is no similar monopoly in the hardware markets that could make me rent all my equipment and not keep control of it.
Yet.
But RIAA and the MPAA are sure trying to get it that way. Note the efforts of the senator from Disney, for example.
And consider that most cable companies (which 80% of american homes get most of their content though) are regional monopolies that can mandate the use of particular hardware on their networks.
In order for this to happen, you'd have to have some new type of hardware come out, completely patented, with no alternatives available that could do something similar.
Thank goodness that could never happen. Oh, except for the DVD player, which is controlled by a cartel. Or most video game consoles, where the companies involved exercise complete control over who makes games and what goes in 'em.
Like Communism, it works well... in theory.
In practice, it requires a hell of a lot of finessing and regulation; anti-trust laws to name but one.
Specifically regarding this situation:
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Nice points, except: Sony only sells the TiVo for DirecTV users, and as I noted earlier in the thread, I cannot get DirecTV. And the only store that sells TiVo is Best Buy, 'nuff said about return policies.
-- http://www.MarkWelch.com/ Pleasanton California
I'm sort of new to the PVR world... can someone explain what happens if you don't connect your box to the phone line? Obviously, you can't access their program data, but can you still use the device like a traditional VCR?
In other words, can you tell the device "record channel 4 starting at 7 pm"?
I would prefer a PVR which does not require any reoccurring service fees. I am sick and tired of everyone wanting to squeeze money out of me every month. I would like just a simple device which is not altogether too different than a VCR but instead uses digital storage. I can use my DTV unit or the built in VCR timer to set the vcr record times now. Works great. This way I do not need to look for a tape to use all the time. I don't need someone to suggest programs to watch. I'd rather save the money and just chose them the old fashioned way. Is such a product available? Othewise I will have to try to build a PVR using a PC.
Frustrated by all this nonesense about companies all moving to subscription based services. The bleeding of our wallets will never end this way!
Also notice how section 1E of the agreement refers to a website with the privacy policy, but the use of the text area convieniently makes it impossible to present the website as a clickable link?
The obvious solution to this agreement and the way it is presented is to get a minor to click on the "Agree" button. Muhahaha. That way, the agreement is not binding. (I.A.N.A.L.)
For extra fun, you could also pretend that you don't know how to use a scrollbar and claim that the agreement you agreed to was what you could read on the screen, namely:
People have successfully sue McDonald's for not knowing that coffee is hot, so surely someone with a slick lawyer could pull this off in court sooner or later.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
comes this better-informed discussion of the topic.
Your ignorance does not mean my planning is "half baked". Apparently you have no clue about the issues around this area, other than what you've read on some website.
A PVR system pretty much requires the cable box to be on all the time. TiVo and Replay don't bother toggling the power to these.
If you'd bothered to pay you'd notice I'm talking about dealing with devices other than the cable box in the loop.
Plus it seems pretty silly to simply not record a show because someone turned the cable box off.
Supporting this issue is not being "half baked" on my part.
LIRC supports a ton of good IR hardware including many devices that send and recieve CIR signals just fine.
Maybe they do. However, I was unable to find any commercial that fit my requirements (ie: USB), weren't do it yourself projects (I can build my own if I want to) or weren't absurdly expensive. Most all of them *don't* recieve.
Its one thing to post erronously a comment to slashdot. Its completely worse to flame someone who's right, calling them half-baked when it is YOU who is ignorant of the state of things.
Why on earth would you hook up a VCR between your cable box and PVR system and then expect to be able to do anything useful with it?
Because most people in the world are hooked up this way-- they have a VCR and aren't ready to get rid of it. Support for that is a nice thing to do-- not an example of being "half baked"... unless you live in the world where everyone should do things the way you want-- otherwise they are stupid and you flame them. Well, youre reality distortion field doesn't extend very far.
You don't necessarily have to distribute the code library for every cable box on the planet.
No, but it would be a good idea to ship a decent code library that works with whatever piece of hardware you end up supporting... and hopefully that hardware works with a variety of CIR devices (again, most of the hardware is not well baked.)
I don't see how attempting to support a wide range of devices is "half baked".
Piss off, idiot.
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
I was surprised to see a TiVo product sold by Amazon, since the TiVo folks assured me that their non-DirecTV unit was sold exclusively through Best Buy. I suppose I might be inclined to buy a TiVo through Amazon, if I believed the unit did what I wanted -- but if it then turns out that it doesn't do what I want, then I face the hassle of boxing it up and paying for return shipping (you can't use those Amazon USPS return labels if you want proof of shipping, I went through that with a purchase from Wal-Mart.com, and ended up paying for shipping both ways).
Oops, look again: Amazon does NOT sell the Sony TiVo unit. They have a listing on their site, showing a list price of $400 but there is no link to buy it or even pre-order it. Your only option is to buy a used unit from someone other than Amazon. Is this even the new TiVo technology, or is this the original version of TiVo with much less storage and which is already at the end of its life cycle (TiVo's promises last until the end of the product "lifetime," which means that whenever they decide the product is done, you lose any support, and program schedules need not be provided at any price.)
About Best Buy returns: Whenever I have bought any product from Best Buy, then discovered a defect (and I do mean defect, not just a change of mind), I have to argue for 20 minutes and escalate to the store manager before they refund the full purchase price. One time, I discovered at the register that the product wasn't actually what I wanted to buy promised, and they tried to charge me a 15% return fee! After some discussion, the buyer for Best Buy promised that I could, in fact, return the TiVo unit within 30 days for a full refund, if I bought it at Best Buy (I assume that if I wanted to exercise that right, I'd need to call the buyer in Minnesota and get him to talk to the store manager here).
But this begs the question: I still can't test it out before buying it, and it's not actually in stock at Best Buy anyway. What is a retail store here for, if not to show me and sell me the product?
Quite simply, I will not buy a complex product if the company requires that I do many hours of research and then buy the product without ever actually knowing how it will work until after I've bought it, installed it, and paid them additional money for a service subscription.
What I want is pretty simple: I want what Best Buy promises in its TV ads: the ability to actually try out a product in use at the store, before buying it. I'm not going to spend $400 for a TiVo or $700 for a ReplayTV if all I'm buying is a "pig in a poke." These companies are in business to sell their products, not to produce a product that people must buy, sight unseen, without knowing what the product really does and without much probability that the product will be useable six months later.
My essay made it pretty clear: after spending many hours doing research, I felt that it was not time to buy a PVR. Nothing anyone has said today has changed my mind, although I did learn one new thing (the fact that Amazon offers a Sony TiVo unit online).
-- http://www.MarkWelch.com/ Pleasanton California
hahahaha you were so trolled
A supplier or manufacturer cannot change your statutory rights after the fact.
In the UK, your rights are fixed when the sale is made (i.e. when you swap the box for cash at the checkout).
I thought the Tivo was Linux based, if so then surely this breaches clause 6 of the GPL (http://www.linux.org/info/gnu.html), which to paraphrase prevents TIVO from giving its purchasers less rights than they have themselves.