Slashdot Mirror
UK Government Expands Spying Powers
An anonymous submitter provides the best write-up of this story: "Today's front page story of The Guardian covers an attempt by the UK government to expand the number of organisations entitled to demand communications data under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA). Previously only Customs and Excise, the Inland Revenue, various law enforcement bodies and intelligence agencies were able to demand this information. The list of agencies proposed in the new Draft Statutory Instrument authorises practically everyone from local councils to the Food Standards Agency to demand traffic data. Traffic data includes almost all information attached to a communication apart from the contents of the communication itself. The location of your mobile phone, for example. Who you called on it and who's called you. The URLs you've visited or IP addresses of people who've visited your server... and the list goes on. The two o'clock update has a quote from the PM's spokesman reassuring us how safe we're all going to be once the Department of Work and Pensions can check our phone records. There's also an editorial piece to emphasise that this is a Bad Thing."
Why do i keep thinking that this is a story about some swinger getting larger...
YAHH BABY YAHH!!!
Damn that austin!
You crazy man? You piss off supahfly!
This draft is already at quite a late stage: best bet is to fax or mail your MP directly. For the lazy there's a form letter here - and FaxYourMP.com is your friend.
Wake up, you brits: the police state envisioned by Orwell is becoming real. If you look at the loss of liberty in the last fifteen years, and extrapolate forward fifteen more, we'll be RFID tagging the populace.
We're in trouble, people: it really seems that there is a transnational, concerted effort to clamp down on our privacy and rights as far as people will stand for it, using terrorism as an excuse.
In fact, the populace is being systematically denuded of what makes us citizens rather than property of the state. I never used to buy all of that conspiracy theory bullshit, but the more of this stuff I see, the more I wonder what's really going on...
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
Would you rather they simply did all this in secret like usual?
I have been pwned because my
Ingsoc has always been at war with Eurasia.
Ingosc will always be at war with Eurasia.
Q: What's the difference between George Bush and
Mussolini?
A: At least Mussolini could get the trains to run on time......
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
Remember that as we continue to advance technologically, the ability of society to observe itself will only increase. When we can put sensing equipment in nanites the size of a dust particle, will we?
.67 years older than the upper limit of the codified regulations of interpersonal relations, sub section 3 of section 123, page 197. Please refrain from further fraternization, or suffer the penalty of public sporking.
The cure is not in legislation, it is in revitilization of simple core concepts of succesful society, namely, politeness, respect, and active participation in a shared cultural goal.
Or we can just accept continued branding and enforcement policies that have become popular in the last century. #099-11-1234 you will not go out with that woman, as she is
-GiH
I love sporks, they're the camels of eating utensils.
Even if you're a good little Right Wing Troll, you have to hate this. It will Cost Money, and lots of it, to comply with this bill. Everyone loses!
"It's gonna RIPA privacy a new asshole!"
You may now start groaning
-Henry
"Useless organic meatbag" -HK-47
I am glad that nothing like this is tried in the U.S.A.
No, Vern. They just let him in.
why is this flamebait you dolt?
It's the fucking truth.
I ought to beat you with a golf club until you can't type. ever.
Linux is dead.
LU
You're a terrorist. You want to see just how much your enemy can find out about you.
Would you rather penetrate MI6? Or the Department of Work and Pensions?
I'm not saying I distrust any podunk agency. I'd much rather not particularly need to. Desperately.
--Dan
I suppose that's irony.
Moita Carrasco
MoitaCarrasco "Everyday I beat my own previous record for the number of consecutive days I've stayed alive." - CARLIN
the country portrayed in 1984... oh wait it was.
Seems to me it's just another story for slashdot to startup the government-corporation-everything bashfest.
Yes, the proposed expansions of "spying powers" by the government is a threat to civil liberties, and yes, Brits should raise hell with their MPs to insure that it doesn't pass (or to at least let them know that some people are concerned about this).
But the proposal, it should be stressed, is expanding the number of agencies who have access to this data. That is, a series of British agencies already collect the data.
This battle should've been fought years ago. Our current political environment is not conducive to stuffing the data collection genie back in the bottle.
-FC
Are you sure?
Governments consist of people. You think that people haven't abused government power, for anything ranging from "researching" former spouses to finding nice, expensive land to confiscate?
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
It is more a matter of principle. First a government collects info about and next thing you know you are being persecuted for your beliefs. It has happened in the (historical) past. Beware Big Brother!
FoundNews.com - get paid to blog.,
Ummm generally I belive in mind over matter,
The government doesn't mind what you do if you don't matter. However if you do something outrageous, say protest some inane policy or attend a rally etc YOU WILL begin to matter.
In the US, the FBI started watching, taking pictures and keeping a file on the SCA for godsakes! For those who don't know, these are the re-inactment types who dress in armor and play at knighthood.
Why watch them you ask? Apparently because they had a "king" and so might wish to topple the government for a monarchy.
But what you said is true, you will probably never get touched as long as you STAY WITHIN the approved thought/consumption patterns and do nothing to attract attention.
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
So you're saying that court records should be closed?
I have been pwned because my
Where do you get the `Right Wing' in this statement?
Hint:
Right wing == distrustful of all government, belief in strict limits on state power, and firm adherence to the rule of law
Left wing == distrustful only of the current government, belief in replacing it with one which will have more power over the rights of the individual, but will be `good' this time, no really, we promise.
Seems to be that the government's ever expanding powers are being challenged very little now-a-days. Soon they will be tracking everything, and anyone that wants privacy will be charged with trying to hide something.
I'm saying that it's good to have checks and balances -- for instance, it's good to have a judge be required to approve a wiretap, so that there's at least SOME oversight. It's bad to have, say, a law enforcement data network with practically no authentication (which exists for some American PDs -- facilitating cops doing "research" well beyond what's called for in their law-enforcement role.)
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Elected? Thats a good one! I seem to remember
the supreme court appointing him....
Oh that's right, we are already altering history to suit our needs aren't we?
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
If they opened the data to everyone in the country, this system would be made even better.
This I agree with. If you're going to collect the information, release it. If you don't want it released, don't collect it. You see this all the time in local politics. The small ponds' big fishees pitch a fit if their publicly funded cell phone records are released. Hey, I paid for it. Let me see what you're doing.
Best Windows Freeware
Even though all these laws are being put in place to make the free world less free. The real problem is that the majority of Citizans are not doing anything about it. A lot of people have seem to forgotten that in order to keep a free society they must be involved in what is going on. If these things are bothiner you Write to parlement or your congressman for americans. Complaining about it dosent do much you must be more active when it is time to vote you get the politicians views on the issues that effect you and vote. There is a fine line between protecting you life and property and protecting your liberity.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
I never said his statement was Right Wing, did I? I said that if you are a Right Wing Troll. Get back to the Spot books, kid.
Survivors of the Paddington rail disaster have recently discovered that the Department of Transport was digging into their private life. The intent was to find out their political affilitations and use these to discredit them. The reason? They were critical of a government minister, the legendarily poor Steven Byers.
In other words, being critical of government policy was enough to start an investigation into their private lives. This is causing a small scandal here at present, a scandal which really should be much larger and probably only isn't because we're so used to such poor standards from our politicians.
Cheers,
Ian
It was fought and lost.
GROGGS: alive and well and living in
There is frankly little we can do. This is the direct result of democracy - the uninformed electing the uncaring. The labour government has an enormous majority within the house of commons, not because it is good or popular but simply because it's the better of two, frankly awful, choices.
The last election had almost 50% of the electorate not voting - it's not apathy, it's disgust for both major parties on the part of the educated and informed. We've been subjected to ridiculous, pathetic, bite-size policies that can make the evening news; attempts to score cheap points over rivals, and general contempt from those supposed to represent us. Those who lap this travesty up (and there are many) are sufficient to propogate the unfortunate status quo.
I have the chance to work in the USA in the near future - I'm going to jump with both feet. You may have the (spit!) DMCA et al, but the prospect of remaining in the police-state-once-called-the-UK turns my stomach.
Simon
Physicists get Hadrons!
this site was set up by one of the guys at ntk.net... very worthy... (directly related to the RIP Act in question) http://www.stand.org.uk/
With the Euro, Europe seemed to be in the right track towards a more united, sharing and open community of states.
We have a lot to gain from each other. Together, european nations share hundreds and hundreds of centuries of history, knowledge and culture.
But something is happening. Countries are turning right.
There was the french case, of far-right extremists almost taking over the presidency; now the whole country is under right-wing (albeit not as extremist as Le Pen) rule. In my country (Portugal), the right and christian-nationalist-right are in power. In Holland the right-wing has grown enormously. Everywhere, strict immigration laws are being imposed.
This arcticle is now only another piece in the right-turn game Europe seems to be playing. Fascist practices for fascist times, at a time when moderate unionist ideas of some sort, NOT right-wing separatist doctrines, should be put in practice.
It seems sad to me, now that the US is all but a fully admitted fascist state (in government practices if not in people's minds), that Europe seems to be taking the same route.
Moita Carrasco
MoitaCarrasco "Everyday I beat my own previous record for the number of consecutive days I've stayed alive." - CARLIN
It must have been the lobotomy kicking in!
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
I've posted this already to kuro5hin, but it can't hurt to repeat my comments to a possibly wider audience. A few sample letters are also here.
If you're like me, you'll find writing to your MP about matters like this very rewarding. Saying that, I neglected to write or fax when the RIP bill first came up, despite my intentions to do so.
I last wrote (dead tree, rather than fax) to my MP at the time regarding Higher Education funding (at the request of my old University), and got a nice reply back saying he'd deal with it in due course. Subsequently, I received a pp'd letter saying he'd contacted the appropriate people.
Ok, it changed nothing - higher education is still poorly funded - but I felt I'd done 'my bit'. Multiply that out, and it could have an effect. Although with the almost dictatorial goverment system we have, it's hard to imagine enough Labour MP's rebelling against a 3-line whip to reject the amendment.
It makes a lot more sense to write something you have thought about, rather than copy/pasting somebody else's letter. If the same MP (well, secretary) receives a few similair messages through the same format (ie. fax), they IMNSHO are (even though they shouldn't) more likely to discount your views.
Different letters, especially if they are dead-tree compliant (come on, how many tech savy MP's have you ever seen or heard from?) go so much further.
So do it, people. This extension of power is extreme, and deserves a letter writing campaign and far more attention.
So:
# Write to your MP. It'll only take a few minutes to write it, print it, sign it, and send it.
# Write again after a few weeks if you've not heard back.
# Forward the link to this story (when it hits the front page or sections) to your friends.
# Mention it to friends at the pub. It's ridiculous, and i'd be startled if anybody - even the non-techies in your circle of friends - agree it makes sense for these organisations to have this amount of power.
# Check that newspapers are giving this coverage.
# Write letters to newspapers on the subject, expressing your feelings.
None of this takes a huge amount of time. It's worth it, and you'll feel a lot better for doing it.
And if anything, it might start to pursuade the government and media that techy's can actual get themselves organised into a politicial pressure
group.
Maybe. Perhaps.
Mmmmm.
Well, one step at a time, then, eh?
ooooooh! What does this button do? - DeeDee, Dexters Lab.
I just finished reading a long thread on usenet where some European was lambasting the West's use of the micron in measurement. Had the same tired old drumbeat of the European superiority rant. It seemed to be a little piece of fascism right there. Get enough of these little pieces together and society starts to get nasty. The odd thing is that the citizens love it. They point to all the things they submit to and wear them like a badge of pride.
And as I've always wondered, where did the monsters of Europe's history come from? More and more, it seems the monsters appear because the citizens greet such incursions with enthusiasm.
Sure looks to me like the `Even if' in your sentence suggests that the Right would not be opposed to this were it not for financial concerns. Perhaps you meant something else, and just phrased it poorly?
I hearby declare this to be a worthless FUD thread. All those that agree are 1337. All opposed are worthless geeks whom no one cares about, not even their own mothers.
Linux is dead.
LU
using the paranoia of terrorism to demand more surveillance of the government. Ever wonder why DUBYA and the rest of the RIGHT WING WACKOS say they are for SMALL GOVERNMENT, yet DUBYA then creates a SECRET SHADOW GOVERNMENT and ALL NEW GOVERNMENTAL DEPARTMENTS AND POSITIONS such as the all new HOMELAND SECURITY DEPARTMENT. How can the republicans get all their buddies on the payroll if they DECREASE government bulk rather than INCREASE it.
RIPA, the A must refer to civil rights associtations :)
I stole this Sig
This is not offtopic, it's a historical perspective on this subject, from the U.S. viewpoint. Many Slashdot readers are too young to remember Nixon, so here's a reminder of why so many Americans worry about giving government police and spy agencies too much unregulated power.
After Nixon's resignation, the Church Committee, named after its chairman, Senator Frank Church of Idaho, conducted a wide-ranging investigation of US intelligence agencies. In its final report, issued in April 1976, the committee concluded: "Domestic intelligence activity has threatened and undermined the Constitutional rights of Americans to free speech, association and privacy. It has done so primarily because the Constitutional system for checking abuse of power has not been applied."
The committee said the abuses by the intelligence apparatus mirrored the growth of excessive executive power and excessive secrecy, and that in the name of "national security" intelligence officers and their senior officials blatantly disregarded the law and the civil liberties of their targets. (Sound familiar, anyone?)
The Church Committee revealed the enormous scope of the operations against anti-war demonstrators, civil rights activists and left-wing political parties. This included the FBI's Counterintelligence Program (Cointelpro), which had the stated goal "to expose, disrupt, misdirect, discredit, or otherwise neutralize" left-wing opponents of government policy. FBI headquarters alone developed over 500,000 domestic intelligence files on US citizens.
In addition the committee found:
* At least 26,000 individuals were at one point catalogued on an FBI list of persons to be rounded up in the event of a "national emergency."
* Nearly a quarter of a million first class letters were opened and photographed in the US by the CIA between 1953 and 1973, producing a CIA computerized index of nearly 1.5 million names.
* Separate files were created on approximately 7,200 Americans and over 100 domestic groups in the course of the CIA's Operation CHAOS (1967-1973), aimed at crushing the student anti-war movement.
* Millions of private telegrams sent from, to, or through the US were obtained by the National Security Agency from 1947 to 1975 under a secret arrangement with three US telegraph companies. (Replaced now by Eschalon)
* An estimated 100,000 Americans were the subjects of United States Army intelligence files created between the mid-1960s and 1971.
* Intelligence files on more than 11,000 individuals and groups were created by the Internal Revenue Service between 1969 and 1973 and tax investigations were started on the basis of political rather than tax criteria.
The Senate committee also found that these agencies sent anonymous letters attacking the political beliefs of targets in order to induce their employers to fire them. Similar letters were sent to spouses in an effort to destroy marriages. The committee also documented criminal break-ins, the theft of membership lists and misinformation campaigns aimed at provoking violent attacks against targeted individuals.
One of the most infamous operations uncovered by the Church Committee was the FBI's campaign to "neutralize" civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr. This included an extensive surveillance program to obtain information about the "private activities of King and his advisers" to use in order to "completely discredit" them. The FBI mailed King a tape recording made from microphones hidden in hotel rooms. As one agent testified, this was an attempt to destroy King's marriage. The tape was accompanied by a note suggesting that the recording would be released to the public unless King committed suicide.
The FBI's Cointelpro operations against the Black Panthers involved the killing of several leaders, including Fred Hampton, by the Chicago police, as well as the frame-up and imprisonment of scores of others.
Would help remedy the situation.
Unfortunataly the people have been vastly de-sensitized by the continuous media fed to them.
People actually believe that it is for their own good that they will be spied upon.
This is population control of biblical proportions.1984 will be paradise compared to what will be going on in say 10 years if nothing happens and people remain so un-interested in what goes on around them.
If you do run a server that people access regularly, or are in charge of computer caches, etc, and you run these personally without PHBs, then just be kind and delete the data that can be requested from you. An agency demands a log of IPs that have accessed your server(s)? Tell them that you clear your logs every so often (6, 12, 24 hours?) and that you don't have the information that they are requesting anymore. They demand a list of URLs visited by your family/friends/clients who use some of your computers? Tell them that you clear caches, history settings, etc, quite often and that the data they request is gone. Sure this won't keep the government out of every last bit of people's lives, but it'll prevent some privacy leaks, and it'll provide a bit of anonymity since a semi-public work station that is available to family and friends will not be able to link other collected data to the individual person that requested it.
Some people may be grousing about what's the big deal? If you aren't attempting or researching criminal activities, you won't be targeted. Besides certain freedoms that people would like to preserve, what if someone is in a chemistry class and wants to examine the structure of 2,4,6-trinitrotoluene... well looks like they must be a terrorist since the URL data indicates that they were surfing sites about TNT, oh no. There are a million other examples like this, and we don't want to be questioned every time we take an interest in a government/security-sensitive subject.
Extending this list by this much does more than greatly increase the number of agencies allowed access to personal information--it greatly increases the number of people who might have access to it, and to abuse it. Especially scary is the power on the local level.
Need I even mention that many of these agencies have no personnel with the training to gather information, much less interpret it accurately. How long before the good old US follows suit? Or have they already granted these powers to every branch of government?
Can I bum a sig?
that not only Lord Protectorate Ashcroft can see my pr0n browsing habits, but the UK government as well. All will be well, I'm just going to go watch Friends now...
/sarcasm
You've gotten better at reading inane comments (300)!
I see you've had your trip to the Ministry of Truth, but on a more serious note, given that no warrent has to be issued and the lack of judicial review this is a very very Bad Thing, here's the story on The Register
Any sufficiently advanced man is indistinguishable from God
Is one thing but if you've nothing to hide then this shouldn't cause any concern. After all, nobody's doing anything they wouldn't mind the government knowing about? :-)
The title of this general theme should be changed from "Your Rights Online" to "What Rights Online?"...
Please be careful using form letters. If an MP gets too many identical letters/faxes, it'll reduce the impact they have.
Take points from the form letters that have been posted here and elsewhere, by all means, but don't just copy/paste it!
A little bit of thought and attention to the points that matter most to you will significantly increase the impact it will have on the recipient.
ooooooh! What does this button do? - DeeDee, Dexters Lab.
Thats why the Justice Department is taking some florida counties to court for voting rights violations.....
http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/3309859.htm
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
Agreeing with you and adding that, in reality, if Gore would have requested that ALL counties in FL be recounted he may have won. However, he only challenged a few counties that he already had won anyway.
The other AC (the one that thinks the big states should be allow to trample the little ones) really has no clue and sounds like a 2600 Magazine editor.
Laws like these only worry people who are doing things that are illegal, so stop whining.
A little on the workings of the UK Parliment.
A Statuary Order, does not need to be debated to become law, it just "neads to be layn befor the House for seven days".
What this gobadygook actual means is, as long as its in the Commons Libary for a week and nobody chalanges it it will become law.
Wouldn't it be nice if schools got all the money they wanted and the army had to hold jumble sales for guns
Just like in the US with Clinton, the extreme Right who own most of the UK's newspapers are trying to destroy the Government. This is understandably creating official paranoia...Who precisely voted for Rupert Murdoch and Conrad Black that they are allowed to try and run the country? They are a bigger threat to freedom that the generally incompetent efforts of the UK government to spy on its citizens...er, subjects of her Gracious Majesty.
do you honestly think that they follow even THEIR OWN rules? A trifle naiive, no?
That was classic intercourse!
It's very important that everyone in the UK who is concerned about this actually do something about it by writing to their MP. When the RIP was going through I'd an exchange of letters with my MP where I registered my concern. In fairness, my comments probably had little effect but I was informed of amemdments and at least there's one more piece of paper expressing concern in the files.
It's important to note that only comments in writing will be noticed. That's the way the system works. Also, by writing to your MP you're going to get attention - it's part of their office to reply - even sending out form letters creates notice. The easy way for us to make comments is by faxing your MP.
Go and do it now.
Of course Slashdot doesn't post the articles about:
1) foiled plot in morocco to bomb british and american ships
2) foiled plan to blast off a distry bomb in D.C.
And that's just the declassified stuff...
No offense but the government isn't interested in snooping on some all bark and no bite slashdorks whining about dvds and microsoft on a weblog.
http://freenetproject.org/
I live in the UK. I am not a criminal - I have nothing to hide. However, I find the prospect of this law absolutley terrifying. I'm off to fire a salvo at my MP, but as he is a loyal new labour puppy dog, I seriously doubt much will come of it.
I need better crypto, and a line-noise password that I change every week.
<fnord>OBEY</fnord>
A simple rule of thumb: Citizens have rights, subjects have privileges. We believe our rights are unalienable -- they come from God. Subjects' privileges are granted by the crown and taken away by the crown as it sees fit.
Print out the logs of the pr0n servers
and the like you go to, and mail them
to your government. Daily.
Including a note saying you feel an
obligation to do this as an honest
citizen.
Considered harmful.
Don't worry the government isn't gonna bust you for those anime divx you downloaded the other day, or tell your mom about the "super hot xxx cumshots" website you visit regularly so just calm down. The government doesn't give a fuck about what you do. Yes you and your little mp3 trading is sooo important i'm sure the cia and mi6 are going open a huge file on you and monitor your hole life. Get real, you are not important. Just get on with your life please!
Isn't the real issue here that a bunch of people are ashamed of looking at pornos?
Guess what the guy at the CIA monitoring al-qaeda 16 hours a day doesn't see his wife except on weekends so he beats his dick to a penthouse in the CIA washroom at night after his supervisor goes home ok.
You don't have to be ashamed of looking at naked pictures, everbody does it. No one cares. mmkay.
The location of your mobile phone, for example.
LOL! Not in the USA! As much as the powers that be wish to, it will be AGES before a system like that actually works (in reality, not on paper) here in the States!
We're almost there. We just need to open things up a tiny bit more. There are virtually no meaningful restrictions left, so why not go the whole hog. We just need to take it a *tiny* bit further. When I can get a list of all the people Cherie Blair has been in conact with over the last week, when I can review which websites Jack Straw's children have been looking at, then I'll feel like we're on a level playing field. I'm willing to bet that politicians have got more to hide than I do, for the simple reason that nobody really cares what I do.
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
Look here: bbc story
There's no actual proof that Dan Corry planned to "smear" anyone! All the government advisor did was to inquire whether this group was run by political adversaries of Labour. Now I accept that if you're a politically-neutral victim of paddington, only interested in safety for future passengers, even the suggestion that you're motivated by politics is likely to offend.
However Labour were only being unreasonable if it was extremely unlikely that the Tories would stoop so low as to hijack a serious issue like this ... I believe that not only would the Tories stoop so low, most modern political parties would. So what on earth are we all getting so excited about this for? The advisor was just doing his job!
It was announced that the Homeland Security Department would lead to staff cuts due to consolidation of identical job titles across multiple departments and an increase in efficiency in the chain of command. So essentially the new department is kind've like a large company eating up a bunch of smaller companies, large staff cuts follow as duplicated resources are eliminated.
And as for the 'secret shadow government' it was neither secret nor did it involve hiring new people. It simply involved moving officials who were already in place to safe locations so they could continue the functions of the government in case of disaster. It wasn't really that secret, as numerous members of Congress toured the facilities and knew about these already existing contingency plans. Nothing new was created; already decided plans were just carried out to assure Government function.
Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
I hate to break it to you, but things aren't much better here in the USA. The electorate is grossly uninformed, the elected aren't too much better informed, the media aren't talking about the issues, election turnout hovers about 60%, and instead of two parties, we have the Republicans and the Republican-Wannabes (otherwise known as the Democrats). Oh yeah, we have the Green and Reform parties, too, but those guys are just making noise at this stage.
On the other hand, there's still a lot that America has to offer. The food, and the variety of food, is excellent. The cost of living is relatively low while the salaries are relatively high. The music is fantastic once you turn off the damn radio. Our graduate schools, especially in technology, are second to none. Girls will dig your Brit accent. And you can't beat the scenery.
The only real pain in the ass, as far as you're concerned, is going to be learning to drive on the right-hand side of the road, and getting used to American football. The gun laws may be a bit of a shock, too, but they're a thing of beauty once you get used to them.
Finding God in a Dog
Has anybody worked out the best ways how to crop up on file, short of doing anything illegal, though with no right to silence doing nothing can be illegal.
1/Use a razor.
2/Learn how to fly [but not take off and land].
3/Use the internet.
Someone must have better ideas, or they could tell us, but they would have to kill us?
I tried to make a more serious list but I reckon it is just too easy to do a 9/11 as long as your group has no prior convictions - the authorities can only try to log everything, and backtrack when something happens.
I obviously have no priviliged information on these matters and I would like to keep it that way, but I would like to know what is common knowledge [or even Open Source Intelligence: with enough eyeballs any secret is trivial].
Be Free: Free Software Tuition
And you guys thought thatthe DCMA was bad!!
Pity us poor Brits - not only do we have to put up with Star Trek months after you guys see it, we also get duff laws through that have been bounced once and this time they are even more duff.
:-)
One of the organisations that's being given powers to snoop on our communications is the office of the Information Commissioner, whose job is er, to protect the privacy of our communications and prevent the mis-use data held about us.
Let it not be said that the British government doesn't have a sense of humour.
Good troll, interesting enough to answer:
It does apply to me if my immediate family or acquaintances work for a government agency. Imagine your girlfriends father works there, and he concludes from your visits to goatse that you must be some anally fixated freak. That does not enhance your relationship. The problem is, you don't get a chance to explain the misunderstanding, because he will have made up his mind about you already, and will not ask you: "hey, I noticed you visited this website, care to elaborate?"
Don't think this is far-fetched: a lot of parents that work for the police/justice/whatever look up everything they can about potential new in-laws.
Same thing when looking for a new job: They will check you out, and if they can find your internet habits this way, they will. And again, you probably won't have a chance to explain the harmlessness of your actions.
Be wary of any facts that confirm your opinion.
So you're saying that court records should be closed?
Some parts, yes. Divorce cases. People are having their bank acct info, social security num, name and address posted on official online sites as part of the 'court record'.
That info needs to be redacted.
Court sponsored identity theft, anyone?
Luckily, your abilities in the arena of public persuasion run at about the same low voltage as your understanding of world affairs.
I normally don't stoop to vulgarity, but in this case, I must point out that you are indeed a massive Fucking Idiot.
-Fantastic Lad
With a reputation as bad as Byers' is, it is entirely understandable that he would be paranoid enough to want to check that this wasn't another put-up job by whoever wanted to get rid of him. As far as I recall, although I haven't paid as much attention as I should have, the entire outcry was caused by a single leaked email that raised the question, not by any subsequent investigations that were carried out. If anything, this just goes to show how good at spinning Byers' enemies are.
N.B. I do not support Stephen Byers. I think he is an amoral pillock. However, I do not think that a row over an internal email that was never (AFAIK) acted on, being intended only to cover their own back so that they didn't look like fools, is worthy of front-page column space.
Reality is the ultimate Rorschach.
Parties are entitled to hijack serious issues if they do so openly. What is pernicious is when peole do so while claiming to be politically neutral.
I suspect that right-wingers may be more likely to do this because they seem to regard 'politics' as something bad that left-wingers do. They often seem to be convinced that nobody could honestly hold a contrary opinion to their own!
It is most likely to the best that the individual we just heard about is being detained, but the government should act within the law; for example if they wanted the equivalent of the UK Prevention of Terrorism Acts, they should include at least minimal safeguards, just as timelimits for the law itself and scrutiny of each case by the minister responsible.
I really cant believe that a Labour government is pushing this legislation through. And mean it - I cant believe it. Its so frikkin broad based that the local fire station could read my email. If I didnt know better I'd swear that Ken Livingstone had taken over as PM....The UK government has such a large majority that it will probably get passed and sadly we cant trust the House of Lords to vote it down.
This is just going to be abused so badly by sick power-hungry little Hitlers....best be REALLY careful not to annoy some jumped up little beaurocrat in the UK.
Definately time for the UK to become a republic AND labour to have their asses handed to them come the next election. Grrrrr!!
here.
Will the MPs actually be the ones who decide how far this goes?
Anyone remember when all these encryption and data tracking laws were first proposed by the Conservative Government? Labour denounced them.
Strangely enough, as soon as they get in power, the laws get passed anyway.
I personally suspect a shadowy grey suit tapped the various MPs on the shoulders and said "no, you WILL pass this law"...
Go back and watch "Yes Prime Minister" again if you think the MPs are really running the country.
With abortion you can argue the case about when independant life starts or ends, perhaps also with coma victims, but I don't think you can with capital punishment.
And as a UK subject and a European citizen (Treaty of Maastricht) I do have many rights, which the various European courts are eager to argue about the balance thereof.
Actually they can't look at the URLs since it forms part of the HTTP traffic. They can look at the IP of a web-server you connect to but not the URL you fetch. If the server serves several 'virtual hosts' they may not even know which web-site you looked at (or at least would be unable to present it as evidence and you could make a legitimate complaint if they found out this way).
Rich
In my ranting to various friends on various mailing lists, one chap (Martin R) suggested the following:
You could also try calling the labour party on 08705 900200 (UK Number, so +44 8705 900200 from outside the UK)
choose option 3 to be put through to a Goverment Information Adviser. A report of the calls they receive is sent out to Number 10.
They will tell you it is for law enforcement purposes (so why aren't the police doing it), but don't know very much about it. Quoting directly from the order will fox them thoroughly.
They have already received a number of calls.
There is also an option to contact Labour Party Head Office, although they don't seem to be answering right now.
ooooooh! What does this button do? - DeeDee, Dexters Lab.
Won't it be fun when every inane law is 100% enforceable?
What if every law currently on the books were instantly and perfectly enforced? For example, suppose $60 was immediately taken from your bank account the moment your car reached a speed of 56 (or 66, depending where you are in the US) mph? Extrapolate that to every law.
Imagining that scenario is a good barometer of where we are as a society.
As the thousands of surveillance scattered around London show.
I know the organisations you mean.
The Sealed Knot in the UK, the SEAR in Ireland.
Probably more likely to be watching people who've training on shield and baton style combat (even though it's actually just a kind of dance) and have experience functioning as a unit.
From my Autobiography - "Lifestyles of the Sad and Desperate"...
If you don't like what either of the Tory parties are doing and saying.
Trains in America? You have never been to the US, have you? I have been all over the US my whole life, NEVER TOOK A TRAIN.
That is the most Brit-centric comment I have ever heard. Honestly, the US railway system (AmTrack) has really precious little to do with the government other than grabbing riding priveledges off of private rail systems.
Oh, and the difference between Bush and Moussolini, and your little ridiculous, unfounded, General Anti-American Commie Nutter Beliefs(TM), is that Bush is trying to save his people instead of killing them outright in an angry, syphillitic haze.
I highly, highly doubt that George Bush will do things so horrible like Moussolini that he will end up strung up in front of his parliament so that the populace will definitely know he is dead. Quite the contrary, he'll probably get a few statues out of it, and a library. Maybe a monument.
That was because he will be remembered as one who tried to stop the death of others (and especially his citizens), instead of encouraging it.
SO, I would just like to say this on behalf of all the people that live in countries with no real freedoms...
Go screw yourself and your left wing, centralized governments that make all of the decisions for me and take all of my earnings to do it.
I mean it. Screw you and your ridiculous Utopia. There is a reason why they call it Utopia.
BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXSIST.
No it can't be true! This is impossible. Everyone here on Slashdot knows that the United States is the only nation that violates the civil liberties of it's citizens. It's the US that has the evil DMCA, houses the RIAA and MPAA, and arrests foreign developers for attending LV conferences.
I mean geez, if Alan Cox refuses to visit the US because it's so evil, you know damn well that his home nation cannot be. This story must be fake.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
It would have been very easy for the Brits to have one MP for the American colonies. Then anything the colonies wanted could have been voted down.
As the thousands of surveillance video cameras scattered around London show.
Well, bad or not bad it seems obvious that the same will come to most of the European states sooner or later. Data Retention has been allowed by the EU Parliaments and affects both people from the EU states communicating with someone and anyone communicating with someone in a member state. What shall be retained can be found here http://www.stop1984.com/index2.php?text=letter_ret ained_data.txt
Is there any info left? Well, you probably just write to the European Parliament or one of the European parliaments and they will add it with pleasure.
A way to say that you are against those measures would be signing
http://www.stop1984.com/index2.php?text=letter.txt
Reading about the recent developments in Spain, England and Germany I wonder why we do not just send our whole informations and telecommunication data to the parliaments to save their time.
instead of two parties, we have the Republicans and the Republican-Wannabes
You might also call these parties the Dumbasses and the Jackasses. You figure out which is which...
The food, and the variety of food, is excellent.
Most of this food (particularly the 'variety' part) originated in other countries. All we do is find a way to make it less healthy than it ought to be.
The music is fantastic once you turn off the damn radio.
And start listening to music from the UK. Not that all Americans make bad music, but like food, a good portion of my favorite music comes from outside the US borders.
And you can't beat the scenery.
Cough, Stonehenge, cough. Seriously though, there are some beautiful parts to America. Do we really need all those stripmalls?
And it's not the gun laws that are so much of a shock as it is all the idiots who buy guns and leave them loaded, lying about where curious kids can go and kill themselves.
This is not the fault of the gun-makers so much as it is the USA's complete inability to teach responsible behavior to its own citizens. Not surprisingly, this is the same problem we have with excess drinking.
It's possible to be a responsible drinker just as it is possible to be a responsible gun owner. You just need someone to bother to teach you something about it.
-r
Just because something is free does not mean you have to take it.
Spewing all of this nonsense doesn't help unless you provide real-live sources for the information. Sources that haven't yet been erased would help.
Well, that's the MP well and truly faxed :)
I'm not a criminal and (as far as I know) don't associate with them. However the fact that the details of any transactions (but not the content - thankfully) I make, be it via phone, fax, email or whatever can be tracked disturbs me deeply. An awful lot can be inferred from this kind of info - which football team I support, which companies I do business with etc. The potential for abuse is huge, no matter what the PM's spokesman has to say. There was a case in the states a while back where the FBI were going on fishing trips to see what books certain people had bought. To open this kind of power to another 24 agencies is stupid and (unfortunately) very New Labour.
Privacy is quite a new concept - in the not so distant past pretty much everyone in your neighbourhood knew who you were going out with, what you liked, what you did by day etc. However, as communities have split up, mainly due to people being able to commute, government has not been able to keep tabs on us the way it thinks it used to. The thing is: they never really kept that much tabs before - it was mainly statistical data such as how many blacksmiths there were and so on. They didn't care about the individual as they do now, in an age where they are capable o getting down to a ridiculous level of description about anyone. The irony is that due to our fragmentation of community, we are less able to stand up to Big Brother (as in Orwell, not the TV show). I don't want anonymity, I do however, want to control what is known about me to a certain level that I would regard as personal.
In fact, it is no coincidence that we have only seen legislation such as the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act since the UK Government ratified the treaty. Article 8 (Right to respect for private and family life) is effectivly nullified by 8.2:
which weakens the Article so much as to make it effectively useless! Where do you draw the line?
It looks like we are in for a tough ride ahead...
-M.
Sen vord is thrall and thocht is fre,
Keip veill thy tonge I conseill the.
two words: Dirty Bomb.
Without intelligence gathering powers like this, then plots like the above mentioned may go undiscovered. Should there be another major terrorist incident, and people question why wasn't it uncovered, do we really want people to say "Beacuse we're obsessed with privacy rights".
And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbour Isaiah 3:5
Why should you protest, if you got nothing to hide?...
Perhaps this for a start?
"First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller "
Be it the UK, the States of many other so called democratic societies as of late, it seems terror is winning the war as it seems that people are increasingly demanding to be put in golden cages.
Even better, it seems that we, as societies, forgot the true value and cost of freedom.
"The avalanche has already started. It's too late for the pebbles to vote." - Kosh
Wow. Look how far we've come since the Magna Carta.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Within hours of the news story appearing, our council leader had asked the council's legal officer to find out if there was any way that the council could refuse to accept these powers.
(It was so obvious that we didn't want these powers that the council leader issued these instructions before consulting his fellow councillors, as it seemed inconceivable that any of us would take a different view.)
That depends on where you're eating. Fast food is total crap. Cajun food is as American as it gets, and it's no worse for you than typical French fare. The same goes for Tex-Mex, barbeque, and other types of fusions.
I'll agree with you that Pizza, especially Chicago style deep dish, has a lot more fat than the Italian, pre-WWII original. It also has more of a lot of other things, and it's soooooooo good.
Oh yeah, the Beatles (and NoMeansNo, from Canada) own Rock and Roll. But neither of them plays Newgrass or Zydeco. And it's a hard contest between Scott Joplin and Robert Simpson for Composer of the 20th Century.
A mere pebble next to the Rockies. :)
No, we don't, and the marketroids that would rip out all the trees to build another strip mall should be sentenced to ten years working tech support. North Georgia is simultaneously one of the most beautiful and one of the most depressing places in the US because some goddamn idiot decided that we need a Kroger every mile or so along 285. Profitability be damned, shareholder value be damned, return on investment be damned. There are things that money cannot buy.
Every firearm I've ever owned comes with a manual complete with prominent warnings and rules of firearm safety, and warnings all over the box (and sometimes the firearm) to read the manual before using. The only way the manufacturer could be responsible is if the firearm were actually defective, e.g., a Lorcin that discharges even when the safety is on.
What we really need, frankly, is a public education campaign on firearm safety (e.g., the four rules of gun safety on milk cartons, billboards, on the sides of busses, etc). Rosie O'Donnel would have a stroke in between loud denouncements of such a campaign as "totally irresponsible," but I'm willing to bet it would lead to a sharp reduction in accidental shootings.
Finding God in a Dog
I have been watching this site for a while and they seem to a good idea about defeating some parts of the rip act. The site is href="http://www.m-o-o-t.org/">MOOT
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire
One word: Echelon.
This means that the Brits are more, um... willing to electronically spy, and if I remember right, Echelon works by the UK spying on us and vice versa. You can bet that whatever they are looking at, much time is spent spying on US domestic affairs.
-twb
I am so sick and tired of people posting things like "If you are not doing anything bad, then don't worry about it". These individuals obviously suffer from a human condition I like to call "Perpetually Trendy Chronic Retardation". Or, in its less aggressive form, the phenomenon is known in history classes as "Those who forget/do-not-know their history are bound to repeat it." In addition to the defense being an extremely weak one (after all, why should we require search warrants before entering some ones home. If they have nothing to hide then why should they worry?). This line is usually followed by the traditional "if you are not doing anything illegal then don't worry". The truth is, however, that these idiots ( and the thousands who would agree with them) most likely have done something illegal and are doing something illegal right now. Let us not forget that if you download an MP3 ( or any other copyrighted material) that you do not own and you keep it for more than a certain amount of time(48 hours?), then you are indeed a criminal. Lets not even talk about distribution of works you do not own (distribution is viewed as a more severe violation of the law, and is punished with more force-BTW for those of you too stupid to put the pieces together- p2p apps make everyone who qualifies for the above a distributor by default-Note that you do not have to be selling it, since the trading of MP3s between users can be used a legal foundation for calling you a distributor(since you bartered your mp3s for someone elses)). Thus, it seems evidently likely that everyone on the internet has done something "illegal" at one point or another.
If we carry the logic of these peoples claim to its natural extreme, then by their reasoning the very concept of "privacy" should not even exist, since "everyone who is not a criminal will have nothing to hide", thus the only people who would ever need privacy are criminals right? Despite their innate zeal and prodigious knack for stupidity, I think even the most inbred individual can see that this is a weak argument indeed. THE FOUNDATION FOR A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT TO PRIVACY IS WHAT MOST WOULD CONSIDER A NATURAL RIGHT. Furthermore, in a system were we log everything and keep tabs on everyone, we are basically engaging in a "guilty until proven innocent" philosophy. The governments are basically stating " we dont trust you, and we are going to watch you to make sure you behave." Last I remembered, I thought one of the wonderful properties of our legal system was that someone was innocent until proven guilty.
As if this is not enough, let me also state that just because you are not inclined to break the law ( or just because you never have), that does not mean you will feel like that forever. Governments, and their philosophies/practices/tactics change, just like people. The founding fathers were criminals of the highest degree, guilty of treason against the english crown(a crime punishable by drawing and quartering-can you say "Ouch!"?) and had it not been for there success, they would probably just be known as so many other revolutionaries are - a bunch of guys who died in a miserable way. In fact a lot of the contemporary 'heroes' of TODAY were infamous and disgusting criminals of YESTERDAY(find your own examples-there a legions out there). Also, I do not protect some one elses rights because i "like" them. I protect their rights, because by protecting their rights, I am implicitly protecting my own rights.
To those of you who are so quick to brand one post or another with the infamous mark of "political bias" I would like to anticipate and rebuff your inevitable attack by showing you the following: Both the Libertarian party(probably the most right wing party to ever be assembled) and the ACLU(American Civil Liberties Union- An organization that has been accused of being more left wing than Karl Marx) have both agreed that all these new proposals and policies SUCK. Check their websites if you dont believe me. Nuff said.
~Your Freindly Neighborhood History Lesson
As another post points out, the minister was only asking what their political affiliations were. If a group, whatever their motivations, wish to pressure the government into changing major policy and maybe spending billions more (on automating safety equipment on trains) then they are conciously entering a politcal debate. They cannot then expect to be immune to standard political tactics - which aren't even particularly nasty - such as enquiries to find out if they are affiliated to the opposition.
The whole rail debate in Britain is horribly skewed. Byers was a sacrificial lamb - the whole mess the government and the country is in is due to a misappreciation of the facts of rail travel. It is still far safer to travel by rail, and by forcing incredibly costly safety equipment onto the railways - which would save about 3 lives a year IIRC - more people would switch to cars, costing many more lives. It's all politics.
So how about a reciprocal notification requirement: Any agency that monitors your traffic is required to notify you of what and how they monitored within 30 days of having done so ? If it would jeopardize an ongoing criminal investigation, then the agency could petition a judge for extentions based on evidence collected. Otherwise, pfft! Once charges are filed, of course, they are required to disclose all evidence.
This notification requirement should have a noticable chilling effect on snoops who work in secrecy and dread being called upon to justify their snooping. They might be tempted skip notifications, but suitable penalties could be levied (disqualification of evidence, wiretap). Auditing would be necessary.
Are you proposing Americans ought to build statues representing GEORGE BUSCH?
burp
That is ancient news that was brough out in the 70's during the period the guy that began this thread is talking about.
BTW, too bad we did not treat the Weather Underground (Ayer, Dorn, etc), the Minetmen, etc. the same way we are dealing with these new terrorists. They got off wayyyy too easy.
Look at the tax system.
Forget to fill in a form - automatic GBP 100 fine.
Fill in a form and the Inland Revenue loses it - 100 GBP unless you can prove you sent it to them.
Make a mistake on your tax return - automatically assumed to be deception now the tax law has changed = fine or prison.
I had one of these recently, I submitted my tax return by their internet service last year.
More than one year later they come back to me saying I hadn't submitted it and it was an automatic fine of 100 GBP plus a few pounds in interest.
This was the first time they'd mentioned it.
If I can prove I filled it in, I can appeal. But I have to attend in person and the cost of attending the appeal and the lost money from taking time off work I can't get back.
So how exactly do I prove long after the fact that I submitted an internet tax return?
They recommend that even if I do appeal, I still pay the fine to save the interest. Cute huh, they are so fair in their appeals, that its better to pay the fine BEFORE the review since its just less interest when you lose.
The appeal process is a review of your case by the an independant (yeh right) Ex Tax Officer.
If you really want to do something about this, contact you local Member of Parliament.
You will find him here:
http://www.locata.co.uk/commons/
7h3rm0
The minister didn't ask anything. An official did. A public servant.
Labour has the right to ask what it wishes. The Department of Transport should adhere to strict neutrality.
Incidently, let's suppose one of the survivers had been the leader of the Green party. Would their comments and questions be any less valid for that fact? Why not deal with the questions rather than the personalities?
Cheers,
Ian
Actually I think you'd find that if Ken Livingstone had taken over as MP there's no way anything like this would get implemented.
...is to stop demanding them.
Decide you'd rather be safe than free, or at least don't complain when others make that decision for you. Submit voluntarily to a random search because it makes the streets safer. Get frisked at the door. Carry a national ID. Get strip-searched before you get on the plane. Piss in the test cup and interoffice mail it to your boss. Don't write your congressman because we all know it doesn't make any difference. Stop reading the newspaper because it's so depressing. Don't vote. Use the supermarket's "discount card" so they can track everything you eat. Stop at the exit to the store when the employee tells you to and show them your receipt so they can be sure you're not stealing. Smile at the camera. Accept the software license that makes it illegal to use the program in ways the software company doesn't like. Receive information but don't create any. Watch TV because books are too thought-intensive. If you do read, have the FBI check your library's records to make sure nobody's checking out too many flagged books. Accept what you're told. Let the government gut the fifth amendment because it makes it too hard to get the bad guys. Let the FBI go back to spying on political organizations & religious groups again because "everything's changed." Let your bank share your personal data with anyone it wants because you're too busy to bother opting out. Mandate location chips in your cell phones so anyone who pays the phone company or gets a court order can know where you are 24/7. Fill out this survey for a chance at big prizes. Put a bio-locator chip in your kid's arm. Don't talk to strangers, they may think differently than you. Go from place to place in a metal box that prevents you from meeting or talking to anyone new or weird. Perpetuate the status quo. Pay more attention to how much money is in your pocket and how safe your investments are than how free you are, how creative you can be, and what the shape of the future is. Get yours - fuck the next guy.
Excuse the drama, but I don't know how else to express the feelings building up in me over the way the US is going. And I'm talking about the past 5-10 years, not just since September. If what our Declaration of Independence referred to as "certain inalienable rights" are no more than a greasy coin we can trade for a modicum of safety, 10% off our groceries, or a chance at winning a speedboat, what are they worth? Does a nation of people that would trade such liberty for these things deserve it? I simply no longer understand a large number of my fellow Americans who seem to think the above is basically OK. More than depressing, it's dangerous, and bodes ill for the long-term future of the nation.
The only tool you've got against psychosis is experience.
Yes, our goverment does want the power to read our e-mails. And to know who and when we called someone on the phone...
But can we name a country where this already takes place? Heres a hint, 'Carnivore'.
I guess the upside of this is that it is out in the public a law. You can overturn a law. You can demonstrate a law to be unworkable. You can show a law to be in conflict with other laws.
Its a lot better than 'policy' and 'guidelines'.
If I run my own web server on my home ADSL line do I have to keep the logs or does it only apply to ISPs? If it does apply, then it seems to be time to develop a ficticious log generating program.
How is outgoing mail monitored? If I send my email via my ISPs mail server then I can see that they have a log. What if I send it direct? It doesn't seem to go through a proxy.
Likewise with HTML. Since I don't go out through a proxy presumably my ISP has to monitor all the packets to get a list of sites I have visited.
I guess I could go back to sending more real letters (these powers don't seem to apply to snail mail and presumably no-one monitors what I put in the post box). Perhaps its time to buy a bulk supply of disc mailers.
Anyone working on a scheme to get around it entirely? E.g. some scheme to send emails via FreeNet?
Bottom Line: Politicians don't care and Joe Public thinks we are all terrorists anyway. However, we are much more intelligent than them so we might as well use our brains to work on a technical solution.
The Plan
Our manifesto will follow.
Be Free: Free Software Tuition
I just saw "UK" and "spying" in the same general area, and the guitar immediately started off in my head. I haven't read through, because I don't want to destroy my euphoric mood by finding out that the article's only some whiny editor complaining about how the government's trying to track and shut down a child pornography ring, and how tahts a rights violation, or some other typical Slashcrap.
What sort of a comment is that? ...!...
(I'm a US Citizen for what it's worth.)
I agree with you on a point or two. GWB is unlikely to get strung up. I think that's just a comparison that the US shows poorly in.
Most likely, he'll be remembered for the details of his election, unless even more horrible things happen in the future. (Homeland Security?)
All in all, I don't like the idea that you accumulated karma enough to post at base 2. I have to deal with it, but I don't have to like it.
An extraordinary degree of opposition from all parts of the political spectrum succeeded in getting the worst aspects of that accursed Bill amended, though the resulting Act that passed into law is still highly objectionable. Crucially, some aspects of the way the RIP Act would actually work in detail were left unspecified in the legislation, to be clarified as regulations to be drawn up later by - yep, you've guessed it - the Home Office. This is fairly standard practice in the UK, but in this particular case one has to conclude that the parliamentarians who were trying to pull the teeth of the monster ended up by giving it a big yet kiss.
Well, now we have the detailed clarification from the Home Office of who should be allowed to snoop on our communications. A grab-bag of everyone from government departments with responsibility for sensitive areas like nuclear power to hundreds of thousands of minor civil servants and elected officials up and down the country, presented to Parliament in a form that doesn't even need further legislation to come into force - it's more in the nature of an administrative order. I will nevertheless admit that I'm a little surprised at how over the top this list of authorised organisations is. The Post Office is authorised to snoop on electronic communications? Any local authority (ie local town or district council)? Does the Home Office perhaps believe that snooping on electronic communications is going to help deliver letters on time, or keep the sidewalks free from dog-poop? More likely you'll end up with Councilor Bigbucks-the-Builder, head of the local building & planning department, trawling for information about the pesky folks who are orchestrating a campaign against selling off the school playing-field for a multi-story office development.
FWIW, my guess is that the more extreme entries in the wish-list are sacrificial and that the Home Office will give them up if pushed - though it will do this with the same bloody-mindedness and grudging bad grace that it displayed throughout the discussion on the original RIP Act which this 'clarifies' - so that some other entries which would otherwise be contentions, for example the government Department of the Environment - will slip through unopposed. Cynical, but unfortunately standard practice. I'd guess that other aims of such an extensive set of authorised organisations are to make the task of oversight as difficult as possible, and to maximise the uncertainty about whether a particular request for traffic information to an ISP can legitimately be resisted.
Brits: write to your MPs - politely but firmly. Look at the list of bodies that the Home Office wants to authorise to snoop - the wish-list is up on the government's web site here. Ask your MP to consider what range of offenses and security concerns it is reasonable to use traffic analysis and access information to investigate, and what organisations are going to be directly involved in such investigations.
(Sigh) It took the BSE and foot'n'mouth debacles before the UK government finally reluctantly accepted that the old Ministry of Agriculture Fisheries & Food had become nothing more than an in-house lobbey for the agribusiness, and could no longer be trusted with supervising food safety. I shudder to think how long it will be before it is accepted that justice and supervision of law enforcement are now too important to be left to the Home Office.
Seriously, no one cares about you. Maybe your immediate family, but certainly not the government.
You may well think that but you don't know the UK government. When a group of people committed the thoughtcrime of criticising a govenment minister the Labour party's first reaction was to dig for dirt. If government departmnets could trawl through private email and phone records they would.
--
Reverse outsourcing: it's the future
No one has proved any of these charges - the only facts seem to be that an advisor wrote to another asking why a group of survivors "seem to have an anti-SB agenda".
...
Good question.
Just because people have survived a train crash does not then grant them special status if they then appear to be [all] engaging in some kind of 'co-ordinated message' thing with an agenda.
Its an absolute herring, this one.
It's the governments email that appears fo have been opened to the work not the other way round
Thanks for the hilarious session at XCOM on the weekend
The intent was to find out their political affilitations and use these to discredit them.
Except the attacks where clearly political motivated, I cannot see how a prospective parliamentary candidate can be viewed other than inherently biased. The add the fact that the Tories are responsible for the poor state of the railways because of their ill conceived meddling.
In other words, being critical of government policy was enough to start an investigation into their private lives.
This is a misnomer, there are at least two degrees of separation, from the Civil Servants that can legally access this data, via the executive, to the party workers. As the son of a Civil Servant, I can assure you they take there independence extremely seriously.
"A Statuary Order, does not need to be debated to become law, it just "neads to be layn befor the House for seven days".
What this gobadygook actual means is, as long as its in the Commons Libary for a week and nobody chalanges it it will become law."
This is incorrect in the context of this Act since, as specified in S.25(5) of RIPA: "(5) The Secretary of State shall not make an order under this section that adds any person to the list of persons who are for the time being relevant public authorities for the purposes of this Chapter unless a draft of the order has been laid before Parliament and approved by a resolution of each House." In short this order MUST be debated and approved by both houses for it to take effect. Of course, I'm quite sure that if necessary the Govt would invoke the Parliament Act to force the issue if it passed in Commons but not the Lords. But then who gives a shit for democracy anyway??But in this case they were bypassed. That's my point - people who could legally ask for this information were being instructed to ask for it by someone who could not have got it themselves.
As the son of a Civil Servant, I can assure you they take there independence extremely seriously. Oh, I know plenty of civil servants and have done for years. Not a smear on the service. It is a direct criticism of the ridiculous 'political advisor' system, whereby someone who's entire job is explicitly political is able to order those who are supposed to be neutral to do their bidding.
To come on to your other point:
Except the attacks where clearly political motivated, I cannot see how a prospective parliamentary candidate can be viewed other than inherently biased.
To be alive is to be political. Everyone has a political viewpoint - you, me, the candidate...everyone. But does this make the questions less valid?
Then add the fact that the Tories are responsible for the poor state of the railways because of their ill conceived meddling.
Cheers,
Ian
I am a Brit living and working in Sweden currently. We pay huge taxes in Sweden and the trains I have to say are excellent in comparison to the UK.
I dont think that the place could be described as left wing though. America won the cold war remember - nobody believes in left wing politics anymore. We all eat McDonalds and buy Nike shoes - as I see the Russians are doing in the advertising on the Russian cable tv channel.
Actualy today it is the most sucessfull businesses which have control of your freedom. The government of a state looks pretty much the same wherever you are - some spend a bit more of your money to make sure that the trains that run dont kill you at random intervals (Sweden 1 UK 0) But every one suscribes to free market capitalism - even the Chinese.
Utopia is an ideal which can never be achieved - but as something which is aspired to, it can easily be described by those things that we do not want rather than by those that we do want.
Inefficient centralised economic systems are something we do not want - but I suggest that the new wave of ultra sucessful capitalism that the USA has spawned is also something that we do not want. I do not want my shoes made by slave labour in free trade zones and I do not want the national food of the world to be the Big Mac (much though I like eating them) Most of all I do not want half of my country to be unemployed and drawing government money because their jobs got exported to employment/environmental law/tax free zones in the third world.
I suppose you describe these unemployed fellow citizens as scroungers who are stealing your tax dollars.
Government is the old enemy, and largely irrelevant. Wake up to the new enemy - shareholder value - because its going to eat you for breakfast then flush you down the can. It will be a long time before an individual business gets big enough to worry about killing the host with its parasitic activity - at least the government has to balance the effects of its actions in case the population gets so pissed off it kicks them out. With business there are no limits or obligations except the bottom line.
Of course the government should be aware of this and should be passing legislation to moderate the behaviour of business. However government doesnt have the power to do this anymore - in fact people like you have encouraged this.
Looks like you have put yourself in a no win situation to me. Take a closer look at the world - its changing and your ideas come from yesterday.
I cant wait for your occupation to firstly get contracted out to an agency then contracted overseas. I guess I'm going to have to wait until that happens before you recognise that free enterprise should be controlled. And if you have your own business - watch out for the brand franchises who will be coming to eat your business at a loss until they have driven you out of the market.
Welcome to Utopia
Facts are history now plebs have politics for religion on social media.
And yet I got rejected when I submitted this.....
Thanks guys.. First a metamod ban for being truthful and now this
...
Anyone need an extra troll?
A
...Upgrade now to Schrodingers Dog...
The real problem is not the law, but the mindset that would allow such a law to be concieved. When we abdicate to others the right to manage our own affairs, such laws are the normal censequence.
Thank you for that, I haddent realised this.
Wouldn't it be nice if schools got all the money they wanted and the army had to hold jumble sales for guns
Or, rebuffle scuffle, or, damn lightning kept me computerless last night.
Fast food is total crap. Cajun food is as American as it gets, and it's no worse for you than typical French fare. The same goes for Tex-Mex, barbeque, and other types of fusions.
Fast food is also what America is famous for. Where would Tex-Mex be without Mexico? What I was getting at is the variety of food we have in this country mostly comes from other places. It doesn't matter if you want Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese, Lebanese, Italian, Mexican or anything else. The best places I have ever eaten have all had one thing in common: very little English is spoken in the restaurant. The only real exception here would be if you want pub food.
Music, of course, is a really subjective topic and I'm sure it would not be hard to find people who wouldn't even consider Scott Joplin or Robert Simpson to be in the running for Composer of the 20th century. But to swing over to the UK before I move to a broader world music area let me ask this. How do you know I wasn't referring to Dead Can Dance? Most certainly from the UK, most certainly not rock 'n' roll and most certainly not American. Care to direct me to American artists making music like they did?
Every culture has music unique to it. For example, some of my favorite music comes from Japan. Zydeco may be great, but you won't find any Zydeco artists sounding like Kodo or Geinoh Yamashirogumi.
(Bear with me, I am actually going somewhere with this...)
And while the Rockies may make Stonehenge look like pebbles, would you want to have been one of the people building it? 'Pebble' might not be the first word you'd use to describe it. Especially with the locking tongue and groove action they had going on with the stones on top of the vertical ones. Besides, the Rockies have little to do with America beyond that they just happen to be there. A better counterpoint would have been Rushmore or the Hoover Dam (which is quite stunning to see and is an engineering marvel). Once the playing field is opened up to naturally occuring beauty, well, you will find that everywhere. Kilimanjaro, perhaps?
I better tie this all together now. And I think a <soapbox> warning might be appropriate. In my initial post I was taking a lighthearted stab at America because it really can be viewed as a melting pot of world cultures. This is not a bad thing. But it doesn't mean that all the variety we enjoy here is "American." It just happens to be here. So let's not pretend that we came up with it. We owe to the rest of the world to remember what they have given to us. Of course, if you want to talk about Native American (for lack of a better term) culture that would be a different story. Should we wander down that road and talk about all the crap we put them through?
At the same time I was pointing out that for everything great in American culture, you can find something equally great in another culture that you can't get from America.
Then, toward the end I took a turn to the more serious talking about our inability to teach people to be responsible. Which it seems we somewhat agree on. IMO, America has a tendancy to take the tough issues, sweep them under a rug and act like we shouldn't talk about them. That's why we have all these problems with irresponsible behavior. Firearm handling, drinking and sex would be a good short list to start with. It is, like you said, as if we are afraid that talking about it will make people behave even worse when it comes to these areas. We do need good public education on how to approach these subjects so that people don't end up dead. But beyond covering just the topics I think we should look at the larger picture of why it is important to be responsible. This is the root of many problems we face in this country. The citizens don't bother to take responsibility for their actions nor do they bother to act responsibly in the first place. Overcoming that just might make us better citizens our our states, our country and the world.
</soapbox>
It's fun to be erratic, inconsistent, cynical and optimistic. (Just so you know that I don't take myself too seriously...)
-r
Just because something is free does not mean you have to take it.
I see that, according to NTK, the Parliamentary vote has been put back a week to Monday 24th, June. Round one to the activists who faxed/wrote/called, but keep those faxes rolling!!!!
Stand report has more detail.
Might be worth faxing again to advise your MP of the new date?
ooooooh! What does this button do? - DeeDee, Dexters Lab.
I think it'd help to get Mark Thomas on the case of this.
For those who haven't heard of him, he's a comedian with a very strong political slant who has a show on British terrestrial TV called "The Mark Thomas Comedy Product", I guess the closest U.S. equivalent would be Micheal Moore? See the BBC article "Mark Thomas: Taking comedy seriously" for a good overview on what he's on about. There's also another BBC article on how a British Government offical tried to mount a smear campaign against him (hmmm, sounds all too familiar!), so he must be doing something right!
I'm sure he'd help in bringing this issue closer to the public, and educate people as to why they need to do something about it. Get in touch with the man by using his site's feedback form or post a question for him on the forums.
Oh, and there's also an unofficial site that's worth a look.
Cheers,
You are young, dim-witted and boring. Come back in five years when you've learned something about the world, and then maybe we'll spar. Until then, you are a gnat. Now, be off with you.
-Fantastic Lad