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Monopolists Dropped Off At The County Line
An anonymous reader submits: "In
this discussion thread members of PLUG (Phoenix Linux Users Group) may have come up with a way to pressure governmental agencies to switch to software other than that from Microsoft. County purchasing policies in Maricopa County, AZ prohibit purchasing from companies or persons convicted under state or federal antitrust statutes. At least one other county, Coconino, that I have checked so far has similar requirements. I think that it's time to make the government follow their own rules and stop spending any more money with criminals."
If that coward Charlie Condon hadn't dropped South Carolina out of the states' suit, I would be checking the local laws as we speak....
Kierthos
Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
Is the world coming to an end? Is it a sign of the apocolypse?
What is the world coming to when we have GOOD laws that are basically ignored?
(stolen from DaBum) I am dyslexia of borg - your ass will be laminated.
monopolists should be dropped off on baltic avenue. nobody wants that piece o' crap.
--
fight global cooling
Since I currently live in AZ, I think I'll have to keep an eye open for this sort of thing. I think I'll also check out what Pima County has as far as their guidelines.
It's easy to stand out when the general level of competence is so low.
In this discussion thread members of PLUG (Phoenix Linux Users Group) may have come up with a way to pressure governmental agencies to switch to software other than that from Microsoft.
How about based on technical merits, does that count anymore? Does anyone still choose the right tool for the job or is everyone a zealot these days? Not that I really need to ask after the uprising over the use of BitKeeper by Linus...
Is your browser retarded?
Mod this down, but does anyone know if the Bidwells were ever convicted? We can nip that damn toilet-seat stadium in the bud...
I seriously doubt this will encourage adoption of Linux in situations where it would not otherwise be used. It is far more likely, unfortunate as it may be, that the statute will be ignored or even changed. Microsoft is seen as a necessary part of doing business, and that isn't likely to change significantly any time soon.
-- Adam
Guess that means we'll have to start be clearing out all the criminals already in the Gov't starting from the top with W. and moving on down to the janitor in your local elementary school.
Realistically, No of this happens, or is enforced. Some people with criminal records are decent people, who made a mistake. Others, well... should be forced to watch network tv all day while picking up garbage (that's 4 u dAAn).
Get over yourselves. There are probably pleanty of criminals in the OSS scene. I suppose next you'll be saying only US citizens between the ages of 21-39 will be able to write kernel code.
Everytime shit like this comes off, it pisses me off...
Linux is dead.
LU
The people who have to deal with them know exactly how to use them to best result. In a former life when I was working for a government agency and was responsible for ordering computer hardware/software, I had to know how to file an RFQ (request for quotation) so that only the single vendor I had already picked as the best source could meet the requirements. It's not hard to do. If they want to use specific products because it's what they're used to, or think they're the best solution, they will use them.
The way to change this is to rewrite the purchasing policies so that they have clear definitions that aren't subject to interpretation, with no loopholes. But it IS government we're talking about here, remember?
"Suppose you were an idiot..... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeate myself."
Note the second link's page doesn't actually say that the contractor must be debarred (prevented from providing services), but only that they may be debarred for a period of up to 3 years. I expect that someone would have to bring this up in a council meeting of some sort to actually have the action taken.
Does anyone know when this law was enacted or what it was in response to?
This is a great move. I mean look what Microsofts monoply has done to David Hasselhoff.
Its obvious that David is using Windows XP because he has no choice.
After the War on Drugs and the War on Terrorism, we now have the War on Monopolies! Good goin'!
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
When was CDW determined to be a monopoly?
.... I think it should be noted that the domain that hosts the discusion list they have is mybutt.com. I don't know wheather to laugh or cry.
Your mammas flamebait.
The real question is: Have the counties in question stopped purchasing M$ software? If not, why not?
This signature is a waste of 42 characters
"I think that it's time to make the government follow their own rules and stop spending any more money with criminals."
amen!
Now we have to find a way to get the mainstream media to cover this. At the moment all we have is a story about a small discussion. It's hard to say how hard it would be getting this covered in the mainstream media however. They really like sensationallist stories but this also might strike them as kind of a fluff story like buying software from MS being against the law is these counties is just some sort technicality, it might be difficult to get this taken seriously. There is also the issue of whether other juristictions share this law. Does anybody know of anywhere that has similar laws?
I stole this Sig
on one hand you want the government to abide by the rules set forth for this, but you do not want the government to abide by the rules about enforcing the DCMA?
But I'm having a little trouble getting past this URL:
I think if I was on a list hosted at pluglist.mybutt, I would expect it to be about something else besides Linux..
If the government can't spend any more money with criminals, the DEA would have to stop having undercover drug agents giving money to coke dealers, and hence would stop funding terrorism, and hence result in heightened national security.
Woohoo!
I don't think they said you couldn't purchase software from a criminal... I think they can't purchase goods from monopolists... I don't think there are a lot of open source developers out there that have been in trouble for owning a monopoly.
Your mammas flamebait.
This doesn't seems to preclude the option of doing business with a third party. For instance, just because Microsoft is disqualified, doesn't mean the government can't turn around and purchase M$ products from a qualified reseller (say, SoftChoice).
Nowhere in the docs do I see a clause saying "thou shalt not buy products produced by a 'criminal' company". All it says is "thou shalt not enter into a contract with a 'criminal' company/individual, its affiliates or subsidiaries".
So, this may prevent gov't from doing business *directly* with Microsoft, or with a Microsoft partner (affiliate), but it doesn't stop them from doing business with somebody else, who is an M$ reseller. Same end result (more M$ products in gov't), but it just costs more and adds one more layer of bureaucracy. Hmm. Sounds familiar...
Short term cost, this is arguably true.
But you dont have to pay the subscription cost yearly to MS to sleep with them, so you save money in the long run.
As for 'well supported', this is a function of its userbase. Guess what happens when more users use Linux? It becomes 'well supported'! Amazing!
"Old man yells at systemd"
If you ran linux. It is a superior OS, and is far better than the Windows shit that you run.
Yeah you've come to the shocking conclusion that people at slashdot are full of shit. The mods have a very nice and selective "We see what we want to see" attitude. Ever wonder how come you never see a SINGLE intelligent rebutal of the linux zealotry here? Its no accident.
This seems great at first glance, but I can think of a few caveats. How long does the ban last? Companies continually reinvent themselves, and the marketplace itself changes completely every few years.
So while this sounds good when applied to Microsoft, what about telecommunications companies? Will the government have to shut off all their phones, because no one is clean enough to supply the service? How about aerospace and defense? Motor vehicles?
The need to punish bad behavior must be balanced with the taxpayers' getting value for their dollar. There are good (and free!) alternatives to Microsoft software, but not everything else.
Sheriff Joe Arapaio at one end of the intersection of Washington and Central in Phoenix, Bill Gates at the other end. The streets are quiet, a dust devil swirls some paper around, it's high noon.... What happens when America's Toughest Sheriff (just ask him, he'll tell you he is, but only if (http://www.arpaio.com/main.htm)a tv camera is near) meets America's Toughest Monopoly? Sergio Leone, where are you now that America needs you?
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
The comments that say, "Hooray!" for the simple fact that it hurts M$ are ludicrous. I agree that M$ stuff is junk, but that doesn't mean that a company can't be reformed. Allowing laws like this to proliferate would basically mean "conviction of antitrust statutes causes your company to cease to exist." Companies can be reformed (as can laws), but some of the above comments are verging on lunacy. Should we pass a law that says, "If you are convicted of a felony, the minimun sentence is death by lethal injection?"
All Your Memory Are Belong To Java
What do all you MS haters propose then? That state and local governments remove all Windows and MS Office installations bringing your government to a squealing halt? Or better yet, since they've already purchased the software, just prevent them from buying more...That way they can sit on Win95 and Office97 forever. Do you propose they use some kind of Linux instead? I'm not sure about where you live, but I know my local government isn't filled with a lot of computer savvy people. Oh yeah, one more thing...since so many people on here are obsessed with what crimes have or have not been committed by microsoft, I'm willing to bet that all the software/music/games/whatever else you pirate on a daily basis put those to shame. Enjoy! ~Vlade
apple has a smaller user base than linux, and it is "well supported"
a way to pressure governmental agencies to switch to software other than that from Microsoft
Isn't "pressuring people to do things" what got MS into trouble in the first place? Do you want linux pressured onto people? Wouldn't you rather they made the choice on better terms?
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
It's not practical for us to stop using Microsoftware, because it's simply too pervasive and dominant, and the costs and penalties for switching are too high.
What? What do you mean "That's the definition of an abusive monopoly!"? But it's so hard to switch away from Microsoft. We know that's the point, but, uuh, we don't wanna. We'd have to learn stuff! We're civil servants, that's not in our job description. And don't get us started on the long term career risks of being in the same room where an actual decision gets made to switch from the biggest, safest option... [etc, ad nauseum]
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
The real issue is that the original poster misread the statute; as has already been mentioned in this discussion, nothing actually compels the county to act on it, it's just that they can.
It looks like those policies just prevent Microsoft from being a contractor to the county. They don't prevent some other contractor from using Microsoft's software in their bids, nor do they prevent the county from purchasing Wintel boxes from someone like Gateway.
As the initial post on the PLUG group said, > [Is there any technology that is Microsoft exclusive? I believe there are sites that explain how to replace Exchange Server completely using Linux/OSS; and SQL Server is replaceable with mySQL; IIS & ASP is replaceable with Apache & PHP, right?]
If using this law simply gets Maricopa County to examine the software on the merits as opposed to blindly following the nobody-ever-got-fired-for-choosing-MS meme, that will be a victory for OSS right there.
This would be insightful, were it true. The pending case is the sentencing.
Maricopa County contains the city of Phoenix, among others. Hardly podunk.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
Says who? As far as I understand it this is exactly what a court has decided that they aren't doing, and this has been upheld by a higher court.
It doesn't make any difference what MS has been charged with or convicted of, because they haven't been sentenced.
Says who? They've been convicted, and Maricopa County policies talking about convinction, not sentencing.
A law set forth in a podunk Arizona county
Yeah, Maricopa is a podunk county. Not much there, considering it's the fourth largest county in the U.S. Oh, and it's the fastest gaining county in the U.S. as well.
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.
How exactly can a government pass laws against purchasing from a particular company, considering the fact that the company is still operating under perfectly LEGAL pretenses and practices? It doesn't make any difference what MS has been charged with or convicted of, because they haven't been sentenced.
It isn't really that absurd. It does make a difference if they have been charged and if they have been sentenced or not. The fact is that they were charged with a crime and they are in court and they will be sentenced. Since public offices have to maintain a certain dignity (even if they really don't do that very well) laws are sometimes passed to bring that dignity about.
It really isn't the best way for the OSS movement to gain access to mainstream arenas but honestly I would take it where i can get it and move on from there.
My little Universe is cool for the people who can fit inside it (being 250 6'4" there aren't that many who can)
Well since you don't buy Free Software from the developers, you only need to determine if the people selling you support, and/or the CDs are criminals, so there is no problem.
Debian: GNU/Linux done the Linux way
yeah great law
now how long until someone enforces it
and can you ?
hey how do you make a guv dept work inside the law ?
(personally I throw bricks at their windows until they get fed up and comply)
regards
john jones
Um, not true. The findings of fact and conclusions of law are entered. They have survived appeal. It is only the "sentencing" (the remedy) that is in dispute. Microsoft does indeed stand convicted of violations of the Sherman Act.
first if they're criminals, i doubt they're monopolists, second, it said convicted, so if they have a monopoly, move to step two, where they need to convicted. Microsoft has been through both steps you ninny!
--fetch daddy's blue fright wig, i must be handsome when i release my rage
I think that it's time to make the government follow their own rules and stop spending any more money with criminals.
29 members of Congress have been accused of spousal abuse.
7 have been arrested for fraud.
19 have been accused of writing bad checks.
3 have been arrested for assault.
71 have credit reports so bad they can't qualify for a credit card.
14 have been arrested on drug-related charges.
8 have been arrested for shoplifting.
21 are current defendants in lawsuits.
And in 1998 alone, 84 were stopped for drunk driving, but released after they claimed Congressional immunity.
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
Guess what they have already ground to a halt. HA.
Honestly do you think that it would. Most people don't even need word processor. Construction crews? For those that do, Open office would more than suffice IN MOST cases. From what I've seen most systems that do billing etc rely on AS/400 or other Unix like systems to do their work.
many gov's in europe and asia are just doing what you are bitching about ! they run more and more stuff on linux servers and/or workstations. why should this not be possible in the states ? e.g. the software which counts the votes in the next german election will be linux powered. (many of you probably think europeans are nuts, but i don"t care)
If you are convicted of a felony crime try getting a license to sell real estate, own a gun, etc.
We say that they have "paid their debt" but as with so many things that people say, it's not always sincere.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
I'm all for open source, but the gov't offices do need time to convert to open source. Everyone is heading in this direction slowly. The more application vendors that support linux, the more users that will move over.
Just my $.02
Arthur Andersen LLP has a criminal conviction for obstruction of justice. That's much worse. As of last Saturday, they're out of the auditing business, because the SEC won't accept audits from a felon. All Andersen audit clients must find new auditors immediately. The company will probably go bankrupt. Criminal charges against individual executives may follow.
How about a full re-post of the highlights of the discussion thread for those of us behind extremely restrictive firewalls?
pluglist.mybutt.net is blocked as a sex site here.
-J
The mainstream population can not use linux easily or efficiently. Windows is king of the hill right now, and by the time Linux gets as easy and efficient it will be just as big and ugly. Quit bashing or paycheck if it were not for the windows platform, nothing we did could reach millions of potential customers. It may not be great but it's the best we have!!
It's Maricopa County's own policy which states that they're not allowed to buy from MicroSoft, or any other company following a federal conviction for unethical business practices. Nobody's picking on the Maricopa County comptroller and forcing them to do something against their wishes; residents of the county are trying to get their own local government to follow its own stated policy.
Local Residents Urge Local Government to Follow Local Government Policy.
Yes, I suppose it does sound absurd, at that - it wouldn't look out of place in the Onion, anyway.
Besides the language of laws, the members of the government understand one more language-the language of money. Cosidering possible alternatives to Microsoft products, they may well find out that additional personell training, convertion of existing documents and databases (convertors rearly save visual representation of documents, so manual alterations may be needed) and other linked expenses may cost more than 5-year upgrade of all Microsoft software they use.
To protect that county's taxpayers from fraud or misappropriation of funds.
If a company has been convicted of antitrust violations, it seems reasonable to expect that company's products do offer as much value as their pricetag suggests. Otherwise, the company never would have resorted to crime, no?
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
True, but since there are many reasons, people are switching:
as is demonstrated by the fact that some people are now using GNU/Linux, and before they were not, and that that number is going up, not down.
Debian: GNU/Linux done the Linux way
Thanks man... The person that used bold tags like 10 mins after I wrote this got a 4, Funny... and me.. I get a 0... what a troll I have become.
Your mammas flamebait.
You've obviously been reading some extra section of the Constitution of which I'm unaware. Exactly where does it say that the government can't pass laws about what companies they purchase from? The federal government already has laws making it favor domestic vendors, for example.
"unfair" != "unconstitutional"
The opinions stated herein do not necessarily represent those of anybody at all. Deal with it.
The law is a county law and perfectly legitimate. Bare in mind "government" just doesn't mean the Government of the United States of America, nor does it merly mean the Government of the State of ___. It also applies to even smaller divisions of people, even to the point of town ordinances. Some aren't legally binding as the next level up (city or state or national or whatever) laws supercede them.
In this case the government (the local government) *has* made rules about spending money on Microsoft products, that is to say, products that are produced by a company convicted of an anti-trust violation.
Same with any other company.
The law is constitutional (though could be challenged) as there is nothing unconstitutional about setting forth laws governing purchasing requirements.
Now of course, this is a single county, and the law is probably quite old, heralding from the Rockefeller days (total shot in the dark, just an unfounded assumption) Possibly it's not paid attention to anymore. Still it is a law, and if enough people in that county bring it to attention the county will either follow it, or revoke it.
But again, it's a single county. And quite possibly it might only mean that one can't buy products from Microsoft (not retailers) which makes it a moot point anyways. (I haven't read the law, as I can't access it). Either way it still won't have much effect on the rest of the world.
not that I've actually checked, but just from the description given, how many people actually PURCHASE from microsoft directly? just as worded, sounds to me there'd be no reason to think govt agencies who were bound by these guidelines couldn't purchase MS OS/Software from a third party, it says you can't purchase FROM them, not you can't purchase their products..
You are smoking some seriously bad crack if you think OpenOffice is even close to MS/Office. Yes, if you're writing a letter to Grandma it's fine, but if you're doing any serious documents it's completely inadequate*.
That's bad, but what makes it completely useless is the fact that the import functions of native MS/Office documents is pretty damn bad. Unless you think that no one ever exchanges documents, this makes it a non-starter.
*And of course now someone will say something like, "well, you shouldn't be using Office for serious documents, you should be using TeX" and the rest of the world falls down laughing.
The suspension is not automatic (according to my reading of the rules), and certainly is not permanent (the phrase "temporarily disqualifying a Person from participating in Maricopa County Procurements" gives that one away). So it's nothing like as serious as you imply.
If the situation is so clearcut then kindly present some concrete examples to back up your claims. Of course I will not hold my breath, as I do not wish to die of asphyxiation.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Monopolists Dropped Off At The County Line
I'm sorry, but this title makes me think back to the old days of the Dukes of Hazzard. I can just picture Bill and Co. sneaking into the county to sell some copies of Windows, and then hauling ass for the county line to get away from Boss Hog. Then they'd taunt him from the other side of the county line (considerately rendered in white paint).
Of course, at least the Dukes were "good old boys, never meaning no harm".
They can't hire a convicted felon as a janitor, but they can hire them for big jobs, like supplying the fine columbian snow that rich and powerful politicians and executives love to snort.
How ya like dat?
Granted, Linux is cheaper in the long run, but do these people really think that thousands of government computers are going to be switched over to Linux at the drop of a hat? How much would it cost to rewrite and debug all the MS driven databases/spreadsheets/word macros/etc/etc to Linux? Plus the training costs for the end-users? Sadly, it's probably cheaper to deal with the monopolists. They'll change the law before they change over all the software.
The problem is that (especially with government agencies) once things get rolling, they are hard to stop. Who in a government agency is going to stand up and say, "OK, enough time has passed, we can buy M$ stuff now?" What if, by the time someone does stand up and say something, the company has gone down the tubes? Maybe if "temporarily" was well-defined, I'd agree with you and go on my merry way... but it isn't.
Having this law in a few places won't hurt much, but, as I said before, if this becomes widespread, it will ignore the fact that reform IS possible.
All Your Memory Are Belong To Java
COST
Unless the cost of the open source solutions is lower than the cost of the Microsoft solutions, there will be no mass exodus from Microsoft products. I know that in many cases the open source solutions are free, or at the very least much cheaper than Microsoft's, but the cost of supporting open source solutions is much higher, and will remain that way until more companies and IT workers become as hardcore with open source as many people here are.
If you look closely, you will notice that a tiny part of Delaware's red stripe is there at the top, and a tiny scrap of it is enough, because Delaware is so small. Being bigger than Rhode Island isn't much of a bragging point.
How ya like dat?
No where does it say in a criminal's sentence that as part of their penalty they can't get a job as a cop
Hmm, does that mean BillG can't vote in Florida?
I wonder if Microsoft falls under that stupid RedNeck law: "3 times = life" :-) ... would be kinda cool.
...what e-mail program should I use?...let me consult my magic 8ball! *slosh slosh* hmmm... "outlook not so good"
No court tells all convicts that they are banned from voting for life. If you are a convicted criminal, there are suddenly some areas in society where you lose priviliges. These areas are not decided by the judge doing the sentencing, they are decided by those who feel that people who break laws are untrustworthy in whatever the context may be. Even if a court does not give a sentence that say that the defendant may not work in this or that place, some workplaces may yet independently choose not to allow criminals.
Some countys have apparently made the choice that previously convicted companies are not good business-partners. This is not a sentence. This is a business decision.
Opinions stated are mine and do not reflect those of the Illuminati
This seems to fall into the category of "Yes they've been punished, but let's kick them once again!"
.02.
If a company has been convicted, and their sentence has been served, where do governments get the idea that they can impose extra-judicial punishment? Remember, we are not talking about a private corporation (which could buy however it pleases), but a governing body which should minimally respect it's judical branch by accepting it's decisions.
01 Cents PIC V99 VALUE
Interesting. If they can pull this off, it won't mean the gov't has to stop using MS right away. Our govt works very slow, they'll probably make up some sort of 5-year plan to get them through. But it did remind me of a time when I was a contractor supporting the govt. The OS was Win3.1 and the word processor WordPerfect 5.1. (wordperfect for win had just come out and was being installed in some places)
When they finally switched to Office 4.2, it was my understanding that we were not allowed to keep wordperfect much longer anyway, because the govt is not allowed to support the same vendor for too long, thus encouraging the vendor to become a monopoly. I have always thought the govt would move away from MS eventually, because it is time. When DC used wordperfect, all other govt agencies will do as DC does. When it switched to office, so did all other branches (over a 3 year period). They've done it before, they can do it again.
(I never saw this policy in writing, it was just sort of 'known by all'. I wonder if this changed, or is in writing somewhere)
If I was Sun, I would work on making sure that these laws are enforced. Kinda reminds me of the old saying
"Don't commit crimes, the government hates competition"
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
Actually, Unix in general is the sort of system that is meant to be deployed and forgotten about. If that requires something underneath that gets mistaken for "rube goldberg" by the unwashed masses, then that's really what's required.
Serious computing simply requires more reliability than was achieved by the original MacOS.
Also, "duplication of effort" is just another way of discribing competition and replaceability. Both are things that would generally be considered critical for progress within a free market.
A little chaos is preferable than being stuck with a hack meant for an 8mhz CPU. Perhaps if Apple had a more "chaotic" environment, a version of Next that can run MacOS binaries might have come along much sooner.
The only thing that keeps rubes like you from being able to deal with the likes of (bare) Unix is your own emotional limitations.
Also, it's easy to "be secure" when you don't run any services. You can run Unix like that too. Most of the Linux variants do this infact.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
This is not the way to go about getting people to adopt linux. Regardless of what you will say, there are somethings you just can't do on linux. And some things that you can do, you have to make do with crappy software, frankly. Open source does not necessarily mean quality. Forcing these counties to use Linux is wrong and will only make the people that make the decisions less linux friendly. They will just end up changing the law to allow them to buy MS.
On another thread, all of the linux desktops lack the polish they need to really succeed in the business world. They are designed by the average programming Joe, and it shows. They look like crap. You should not have to fuck with the OS or X to make it render anti-aliased text, for example.
And for all the stories about how someone's 6 year old child can sit down at a linux computer and start recompiling the kernel in 10 minutes, there are 5000 times as many about mainstream people that have given linux a chance and found it to be crude. Linux may have a Ferrari engine and frame, but it has the body of a Pinto, and whether you want to admit it or not, you know that's all that matters to the masses. The success of Windows is that when people sit down at their computers, it just works, well minus the occaisional BSOD (which is not nearly as common as people make them out to be, especially with Windows XP.) You don't have to recompile anything, you don't have to fuck with configuration scripts, it just works. And then while it's working, it looks good. The interface has thousands of hours of refinement and usability studies behind it. It works, it looks good, that's why people like it.
And no one in the public gives a damn whether or not Microsoft is crushing other companies by including Internet Explorer and Windows Media Player in their operating system. They like it. They like the fact that Internet Explorer has the continuity of interface and user experience that only integration can bring. They like those proprietary Internet Explorer extensions to HTML because it makes their web pages look better, and they don't even know it.
They like Windows Media Player because they put their cd in and it start playing. They like it because they can click one button and it rips the cd with speed and effienciency. They like it because that same program can manage all of their media.
For the average user, the computing experience is all about complexity, and the desire to reduce that complexity as much as possible. People don't care that with linux you can configure the kernel to your every whim. They would prefer that option to be left out if it would mean that when they put their kid's game in there it works out of the box.
And that is why linux will always be a niche operating system. It cannot succeed in the mainstream because it is too good at what it does. Linux is an operating system created by programmers for programmers and people know how their computer works. It is not, nor will it ever be for Betty Sue down at the DMV, unless somebody gets a clue and focuses on the interface.
It may not stop the Gov't agencies from using M$ products, but I wonder if a class action may generate some sort of penalty for the continued use of them. I'd love to see us regular folks be able to "Tax" the feds for using a product that violates their own rules, guidelines, and laws.
I wonder if we could also work into it some interest and late fees too!
Goran
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
> company to cease to exist
If that's what was actually being talked about, it'd still be what we should do. But what's actually going on is something different; see below.
Here's why I think it would be the right thing to do. Look at what Arthur Anderson got away with because they weren't forced out of existance: multiple judgements, spanning many years, some of the largest in history (seeking $600 million in fines for AZ Baptist Foundation anyone?), finally resulting in Enron, where public opinion finally got them turned into a shell of their former corporation.
> If you are convicted of a felony, the minimu[m]
> sentence is death by lethal injection?
Repeat after me:
Companies are not natural persons.
And even if they were natural persons, they deserve to suffer the same fate as 68% of the people on Death Row. How many corporations have been executed in the last 100 years? Go ahead, I'm waiting. I can read you off a huge list of natural persons who've had their lives snuffed out by the state. Are you implying that corporations are more moral than the people they make up??? Or something even more ludicrous?
Capital punishment is not even on the same level as revoking a company's charter. And it's definitely not the same as barring them from selling to government agencies in a county (or even a country for that matter). Which is what's being recommended. The two are not even remotely close.
If a government group/agency/regional authority stops buying your products, you still have the whole rest of the world, and all of the private world to sell to. And if your products are strong enough, why do you need to be on government dole anyways?
Now it'd be interesting if in companies convicted of criminal activities, the CEO and board of directors were subjected to lethal injection. That would clean up a lot of shoddy business practices and fraud in a hurry.
That's a solution that's got a lot to recommend it, actually....
If you disband a company, and sell off it's assets, and pay off the stockholders, who actually got hurt?
Yes, some people are out of business, but if the need remains for those services, those people A) will form a new company, or B) get hired by the former companies competitors. If there are no competitors, you've just cleared the field for anyone (hopefully two or three) new companies to come in and provide services.
-- Ender, Duke_of_URL
the analogy in your observation will be relevant the moment Pantone license's it's "US government granted monopoly on a basic mathmatical principle" (read:Software Patent) to something that run's on linux.
prisoner# msce18xxxxx. Currently planning my escape.
i'd say linux with a kde desktop is pretty useable for normal things like web browsing, email, etc. its when people try to administer the machines when complexity might become a problem. but perhaps that means i'll be able to get a govt. job AND get paid for using linux!
/me writes a letter to his congressman
Has anyone else noticed that the amount of Linux/OSS bashing on /. has increased a lot lately?
This seems really weird to me. Are people coming here just to bash OSS? What happened to all the intelligent, free-thinking conversation?
/. seems to be flooded by static these days. If these people can't handle us "zealots" why don't they get their new somewhere else? Are they getting paid derail discussions by asserting half-truths? What's the incentive? Do they just post so that others will waste time posting proof they're wrong?
MS has been convicted.
This law is constitutional. (moron)
Computers do work without MS software.
There's no such thing a "congressional immunity"
Linux is easy to use, just hard to configure.
Anything else I missed?
If they don't want their freedom, fine. I'll keep mine thanks.
That law is to protect the county from sweetheart deals where the procurement manager suddenly gets an all expense paid trip to Bermuda in exchange for the bid. It has nothing to do with the culpability of MS or not.
Even if MS is barred, because they have broken the law, who buys directly from them?
Isn't most of the stuff sold by OEM's who bundle HW. SW and services together?
Even software only purchases go through a middle man.
Maybe you're missing the point. They aren't saying that they aren't going to allow people to buy Microsoft products in that county, they are saying that the county itself should no longer buy Microsoft products because of a provision in county law that says the county can't do business with a convected criminal.
Microsoft has been found guilty of violating Anti-trust laws therefore technically the county is violating their provision by buying products from Microsoft.
The government hasn't made any rules about spending money on microsoft products, so what rules are you suggesting they follow?
The Government of this county has made a rule (see above), so in this county they should follow the rule. Of course it begs the question of weither or not people should be locked up for some of the outdated/stupid laws that are still on the books.
Of course this whole thing is somewhat based on a technicality that never gets into the questions of 3rd party re-sellers or what the law was originally intended for in the first place. So unless these people have researched it then they may end up doing more harm than good. (I can just see the county raising taxes for a switch over)
The Anti-Blog
WOW! now thats a really crappy porno filter. Mybutt holds no pron and never has!
u g-dis cuss/2002-June/025878.html
Anyway, you can reach the message at the REAL address for the list at:
http://lists.plug.phoenix.az.us/pipermail/pl
George Toft plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:27:50 -0400 Previous message: Help Maricopa County Do the Right Thing Next message: Help Maricopa County Do the Right Thing Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] I just spent some time reading Maricopa County policies. Interesting references: MC1-101 DEFINITIONS 25."CONTRACTOR" means any Person who has a Contract with a County Governmental unit. For purposes of Article 5, Contractor may also mean Respondent as defined in this Article. 36."DEBARMENT" means an action taken by the County Administrative Officer under MC1-902 to prohibit a Person from Participating in Maricopa County Procurements. 80."PERSON" means any corporation, Business, individual, union, committee, club, other organization or group of individuals. 113."SUSPENSION" means an action taken by the County Administrative Officer under MC1-902 temporarily disqualifying a Person from participating in Maricopa County Procurements. http://maricopa.gov/materials/p-code/HTML_code/Cod e-01.htm
[Microsoft is considered a Contractor and a Person. This is important
below.]
MC1-407 MAXIMUM PRACTICABLE COMPETITION
All Specifications shall seek to promote overall economy for the purpose
intended and encourage competition in satisfying Maricopa County's needs
and shall not be unduly restrictive.
http://maricopa.gov/materials/p-code/HTML_code/Cod e-04.htm#MC1-401
[Is there any technology that is Microsoft exclusive? I believe there
are sites that explain how to replace Exchange Server completely using
Linux/OSS; and SQL Server is replaceable with mySQL; IIS & ASP is
replaceable with Apache & PHP, right?]
MC1-902 DEBARMENT AND SUSPENSION OF CONTRACTORS
B. The causes for Debarment or Suspension shall include, but are not
limited to, the following:
2. Conviction of any Person or any subsidiary or affiliate of any Person
under any statute of the Federal government, this State or its political
subdivision or any other State for:
k. Any other offense indicating a lack of business integrity or business
honesty which affects responsibility as a Contractor.
3. Conviction or civil judgment finding a violation by any Person or any
subsidiary or affiliate of any Person under State or Federal Antitrust
Statutes.
http://maricopa.gov/materials/p-code/HTML_code/Cod e-09.htm#MC1-901
[As I read MC1-902.B.3, Microsoft (a Person), having been convicted of a
violation of Federal Antitrust Statues, cannot be a County Contractor.]
I love policies :)
George
Jim wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I have heard from a "reliable source" that the Maricopa County Council has
> decided not to automatically sign off on having the county sign an Enterprise
> Agreement with Microsoft. The source said that people within the county IT
> organizations made their opinion known that the Enterprise Agreement might
> not be the best path for the county to blindly follow.
>
> Since no decision has yet been made, I urge you to PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
> contact your Maricopa County district council person and your city council
> people with some simple questions.
>
> a. Ask them if they plan to approve funding for the Enterprise Agreement with
> the Microsoft Corporation?
>
> b. If they do plan to do so, ask them to provide you with a copy of the
> agreement and the dollar amount to be expended.
>
> c. Ask them when they will be hearing from the public on the budget, so if
> they are adopting an Enterprise Agreement with Microsoft, you can have your
> voice heard publicly.
>
> d. Ask they why do they do business with a vendor that has been convicted of
> felony wrongdoings.
> .
> e. Ask them if they have they considered alternatives to Microsoft products.
>
> I dont have city contact information but county contact information is as
> follows:
>
> Map To Find Your Council Person
> http://www.maricopa.gov/county_glance/maps.asp?lin k=districtMap
>
> Council Contact Email
> Dist 1 Fulton Brock FBrock@mail.maricopa.gov
> Dist 2 Don Stapley DStapley@mail.maricopa.gov
> Dist 3 Andrew Kunasek AKunasek@mail.maricopa.gov
> Dist 4 Max Wilson mwwilson@mail.maricopa.gov
> Dist 5 Mary Rose Wilcox MrWilcox@mail.maricopa.gov
>
> Also I would cc: the County Administrator and Deputy County
> Administrator
>
> CAO: David Smith DSmith@mail.maricopa.gov
> DCA: Sandi Wilson Swilson@mail.maricopa.gov
> - --
> Jim
>
> Freedom is worth protecting
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> ________________________________________________
> See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
>
> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/p lug-discuss
I disable sigs...do you?
I happen to work for the gov't, not in Maricopa County (although I'd love to be living in Phoenix) and we use a handful of OS's for security reasons. We use Windows NT, Novell, Unix, our email server is Notes, and that is just the ones I use daily.
I don't know if I agree or disagree with this "law", but using only one IMHO is stupid. In addition to that, this has nothing to do with Microsoft vs. Open Source. This is about ethics, morals, and legalities. Is it legal to run microsoft? Sure. Is it morally and ethically right? Probably not for all you slashdotters. Just because one small portion of the US has a law that could potentially apply to support your moral and ethical views doesn't mean that it is illegal as well.
How exactly can a government pass laws against purchasing from a particular company, considering the fact that the company is still operating under perfectly LEGAL pretenses and practices?
Good question. It's still being battled in courts. Berkeley's city council had their law repealed by higher courts regarding their boycott of major gasoline suppliers (due to international actions). The law was repealed because of the limits of domestic government on international relations, and not due to any other presumed illegality by your argument. After the law was repealed, the city distributed a memo simply suggesting that the city employee's choose a certain supplier (local to CA named Sunshine, if memory serves). (read No Logo: Klein)
But this is a domestic issue, so it wouldn't fall under the same category of domestic agencies defining international relations. Furthermore, it doesn't impose tariffs on interstate commerce by raising the bar for entrance (i.e. it's not requiring local vendors, which would require any comers to have offices in AZ which would present a difficulty to smaller vendors who could not afford to open new offices to meet requirements). Since it doesn't impose any barriers that infringe upon federal requirements, it appears that it is a local issue, and the policy wouldn't have any problems in any level of court. Procurement laws exist to suppress monopolist action by the government in the first place. They define a strict protocol for selecting vendors (i.e. some formal guidelines require a minimum pool of respondents before a purchase can even be considered. If it doesn't meet the minimum, the purchase could simply die, even if there really is only one possible vendor for sproingie widgets).
I said it in my other post, but reiterate here: your argument deserves to be modded down simply because you fail to demonstrate any sort of knowledge of government procurement.
The government hasn't made any rules about spending money..., so what rules are you suggesting they follow?
I cut out the vendor name to make my point. Local government agencies have as much power as state and federal agencies. Some might argue, they have even more power, since it directly affects your local community. It's just that local agencies don't have federal power, and federal agencies don't have local power (why else do you think that federal raids always coordinate with local authorities?).
ALL HAIL BRAK!!!
Unfortunately, I think LUGs have a general
unwillingness to mobilize in meaningful ways.
If LUGs offered formal training in GNOME, KDE,
and OpenOffice--then how much of that switching
over cost remains? Will we then effectively
commoditize Linux as an alternative?
I think that when it comes time to renew software
licenses with Bill (appropriately named),
then certainly, Linux/OpenOffice is more of a
commodity.
Matthew
If you are convicted of a felony crime try getting a license to sell real estate, own a gun, etc.
Maybe they're afraid they might try to sell real estate with a gun.
--
As a matter of fact, I am a lawyer. But I play an actor on TV.
CRAP.
They told us to hold them to a higher standard by electing them. They said they would make the country a better place, or at lease a safer one. They claimed superiority to their competitors. They claimed to want to help the people. Go listen to all of their campaign speeches.
I expect there are a lot of people in the world who lie and cheat and steal. And I try very carefully to see through the lies, avoid the cheats, and not get ripped off by th thieves.
So then the liers, cheaters, and thieves are making the laws, I do what I can to remove them. THAT is in ALL OF OUR best interests.
There are also good congress-critters. It's always a good time to get rid of the trash and support the good. I guess the only think to add is that not all of congress is bad, just the handfull of bad apples. Let's clean them up, not excuse them.
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
How is it unconstitutional for a local county government to set a local county purchase policy?
or do you think that the constitution restricts what every single governing body in the US can do and not just the federal and (after the 14th amendment) state governments can do?
people who throw around the word "constitution" should read the beast.
In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
Hmmm... That's like saying it's OK for a convicted child molester to go work in a school once out of prison. Think about it...
This post is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 License.
Watch the torches being turned to burning away the mists of FUD, and the pitchforks turned to removing manure.
I live near Takoma Park, MD, which voted itself a Nuclear Free Zone about 15 years ago. The ordinance prohibits the city from purchasing anything from companies "knowingly or intentionally engaged" in nuclear weapons production. To my knowledge, there have only been two waivers in the 15 year period (try finding a company that makes streetlights that isn't involved in nukes!), and the residents of the town consider it generally a success, even if the police department had to drive Chryslers (eewwww!).
Of course, this is not your most conservative-leaning electorate - I think the #2 registered party is the Greens (after the Democrats) - so keeping the political goodwill to enforce a choice like this was easy. Of course, Snohomish or King County may be a different matter entirely.
Everyone will start to cheer when you put on your sailin' shoes.
The statute shouldn't be ignored, it's a law! If it is being ignored, attention should be brought to the oversight and compliance should be enforced. That's what we have laws for!
As someone who has worked for years in a "Microsoft shop", and also been a Linux user at home for even longer - I think everything has its place.
When an old friend of mine started up a business as a local ISP, I remember him wanting to go with Linux for everything. Everyone else running a similar ISP recommended OpenBSD instead. (Something about it being better at handling concurrent tasks when you start getting hundreds of simultaneous users, and arguably more efficient TCP/IP and routing capabilities.)
In the end, he stuck with Linux, mostly because he was more familiar with it - and was confident it would suit his needs reasonably well. As far as I know, he still uses Linux today and it gets the job done - but he did have some hassles that only got fixed with newer Linux kernel versions over the years.
Many MS shops are this way too. They've been told numerous times that Linux servers are better solutions, and in fact, they don't dispute it. They simply opt to deal with the "devil they know" instead of the unknown. Hundreds of thousands of businesses "get the job done" every day on MS software, despite all the bugs, security issues, and expense.
What some people perceive as being a "Linux Zealot" is often a frustrated systems admin trying to drive the point home that it's worth the trouble to learn something new and throw out the existing, even though it "gets the job done".
Right now, if you don't go with MS products, you are in a "any color you want, as long as it's black" type of world. Linux is currently the only other viable operating system that runs on a PC platform, in many cases. (Apologies to the BSD guys here - but BSD is a lot more conservative in their hardware support. Sometimes it just won't run all the peripherals or newer hardware you own, making it an unworkable option.)
We had BeOS - but it's dead. We had OS/2 - but it's dead. We still have Mac OS, but it's proprietary.
Though I agree the government shouldn't be doing business with criminals (must resist long rant on this subject), is it right to force people away from micro$oft? Seems no better than the tatics m$ uses to force people to use their OS. Shouldn't the laws be engineered to accomodate choice rather than forcing options in the other direction?
Sound like a whole lot of discussion and no action!
Here's my poor assed excuse for a letter to my County Councilmember (yes I do live in Maricopa County)
Councilman Fill in name here,
I am writing you in regards to the news that the Maricopa County Council is debating an Enterprise Agreement with Microsoft. However, I have read that according to Maricopa County Policies, Microsoft should be disqualified from any contractual business with the County. I would like to declare my support for Microsoft's disqualification.
According to MC1-902 DEBARMENT AND SUSPENSION OF CONTRACTORS, I read the following:
"B. The causes for Debarment or Suspension shall include, but are not limited to, the following:
2. Conviction of any Person or any subsidiary or affiliate of any Person under any statute of the Federal government, this State or its political subdivision or any other State for:
k. Any other offense indicating a lack of business integrity or business honesty which affects responsibility as a Contractor.
3. Conviction or civil judgment finding a violation by any Person or any subsidiary or affiliate of any Person under State or Federal Antitrust Statutes."
Microsoft, having been convicted of Federal Antitrust Statutes (penalties pending), clearly falls into the catagory described in part 3, and several court cases past and pending show a clear lack of integrity and business honesty as outlined in part 2. I cannot find that ANY government body would be willing to work with such contractors, let alone having rules against it and clearly ignoring those rules.
There are many alternatives to Microsofts products. Alternatives that have broken no laws, Federal or Local, are well supported and used by many large governments (Germany, Taiwan, et al). As a concerned voter in Chandler, I must point out that I cannot support criminal behavior and would hope that my County Council would see fit to do the same and ONLY consider alternatives as Microsoft is clearly unqualified to meet County requirements.
Thank You,
fill in your name here
If you can come up with a better one (and i'm sure you can cuz IANAL or much of else for that matter) then post it somewhere. Templates people, we need templates!
sig of the day: If wishes were horses poor men would ride - unknown
If we can keep a hard deadline on our TSA (Tourism and Sports Authority aka Taliban Sports Authority) which cant seem to find a legal place to put the stadium, Maricopa County will have 300 million dollars burning a hole in their bank account. I would prefer they use it to pay a lot of programmers to convert to linux then some pork project (and i dont mean the green bologna that Sheriff Joe serves).
Very good post, BTW... All I was going to add is that arguably, a "technical merit" of a platform is the ability to run the widest range of software applications available.
It's probably for this reason, alone, that MS products still get entrenched in new business start-ups. Say you need a really powerful accounting/financial package. In Linux, what do you go with? I know there are a few packages around for small or medium-sized businesses, but what if you're larger than that? Perhaps, if things were really based completely on "technical merits" - you'd just hire devlopers and write your own. Realistically though, almost every large business will instead choose one of the big ERP packages made to run in the Windows environment, or go with something for an AS/400.
Hmm. I agree. There should be a computer licensing system, similar to the radio operator licenses for ham radio. You take a series of tests for each licensing level, and that's the type of system you're allowed to use. Macs could either be level 1 or no license required. Using a PC with Windows 95,98,or ME would be level 2. PC with Windows NT,2k,or XP would be lvl 3. Other hardware with Microsoft operating systems could be level 4, and finally any hardware with Unix derivative or other OS would be 5. You could also apply for your "Crazy Anachronist" sticker for your lvl 5 license if you need to run VMS on VAX or some similarly complex throwback.
Seriously though, put a Mac, a PC with Windows, and a Linux box next to each other. Now look at each and try to imagine your mom using them (if your mom is a programmer, then think of aunt Tilly, or some similarly computer-illiterate person you know). IMO, it boils down to Mac or Windows. Linux provides too many opportunities for destruction post-setup, and in a small office/home with no knowledgable IT staff, setup is nigh impossible without a serious computing background.
And MS pushes no agendas? Isn't that how this whole mess got started?
My state was using an OS/2 based system for a while for DMV "cust serv" rep terminals, and also Dept of Rev and Taxation. Not sure if it's still alive like that, but it is possible. The law hopefully is to prevent taxpayer funds from helping companies/ind with disreputable records.
If Redhat or SUSE or Mandrake or the main individual behind any particular distro were laid under the same charges, I would hope that the gov (or private citizens) would choose not to support those companies.
However, since it is MS, it is potentially leverage for the "alternative OS" crowd. I want something that works and works well, and doesn't support twisted business practices. Good luck.
And the argument is, "Don't use this software because the company has been found guilty in a civil antitrust suit." The topic at present is about law and not function.
Does Photoshop run under WINE?
Best,
Bosconian
Scarce, scared, scarred, sacred... -Col. Bruce Hampton
Re-education + buying new hardware (because there's no driver support for that, RTFM) + administrators to run your new servers + well... you get the picture.
Plus what state manager in their right mind is going to take an arable system and scrap it? This is why mainframes live on even though there's "better" technology out there: they may not be pretty, but they just work.
Easy does it!
This comment has been submitted already, 276865 hours , 59 minutes ago. No need to try again.
It's not that they are being pressured into Linux. They could go to Mac, BSD, or Linux (this list would be longer, but OS/2 and Be OS are not options...I wonder why). There is a barrier to leaving Microsoft, and this is a clever way of overcomming that. It's my favorite emotional argument these days, "Do you really want to give your money to a convicted felon?" It's very effective.
The point is that in many places, it is already illegal to do business with Microsoft, but that law is being ignored. The governments agreed to the statute when they passed it, now it's time they obey it. Insisting that a local statue be obeyed is not a Microsoft-esque scare tactic, it's civic duty. You can't sit idly by, hoping that local governments realize the techical merits of Linux and spontaneously switch (espeially when Microsoft and de Tocqueville (spell?) conspire). It's action by the people that changes the government.
It's a bonus that it makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.
for your county govt to grind to a halt. Anyone think of the ramifications of a sudden shift from MS to an alternative OS?
Grind to a halt? This just says no more purchasing. Existing systems are fine. They'll be phased out in the same way they are at the moment. Just replaced with something else.
1) Hundreds of COTS and Vendor developed Windows apps will need to be replaced or re-written costing taxpayers more money.
Most windows apps have an equivalent that could be used. The painfulness of switching to Linux would be no greater than that of moving from 98 to XP.
The vendor developed apps might be a problem. Would WINE solve it? Maybe. Maybe not. Could a small bunch of Perl/TK/Webapp programmers solve it? Possibly. Vendor contracts are renegotiated all the time. Again, the key word is gradual phase out, which happens all the time anyway.
2) User re-training costing taxpayers more money.
Not more than the UI shifts from Office 2k to Office XP. They're fairly big. And people can adapt to new tasks. Not a big deal.
3) New vendors for tech support of new apps and OS, re-training or replacing county tech support personnel costing taxpayers more money.
Really a whole lot more money than we currently spend to renew MS licenses?
Libertarianism is rich wolves and poor sheep playing gambler's ruin for dinner.
Osceola County, FL: http://www.co.leon.fl.us/purchasing/manual/15.html
: www.co.mchenry.il.us/CountyDpt/Purchase/OrdinanceF in2.pdf+county+purchasing+statutes+antitrust&hl=en
: www.douglas-county.com/Purchasing/PDF%2520Files/pu rchasing%2520policy.pdf+county+purchasing+statutes +antitrust&hl=en
McHenry County, IL: http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:3s5NPoB_NLAC
Douglas County, KS: http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:tQqv8y1da4EC
More counties, all the same wording.
"Causes for Debarment...entry of a plea of guilty, no contest, or nolo contendere to or conviction under state or federal antitrust statutes arising out of the submission of bids or proposals".
Did they plead guilty?
Or maybe that county has a more strict wording? (You commited, rather than plead guilty to committing).
http://www.angryburrito.com/ The best, completely unfinished software review site ever.
Try the state level. For example Texas
I bet every State is now prohibited by its own laws from allowing MS to bid on software licensing terms...
You hurt your own argument - you saw examples of poor RFQ because they omitted pertinent facts.
Needed: one SCSI hard disk with external case and power supply. Internal hard disks are unaccepable due to lack of space and power with the cabinet.
Needed: one flat-screen display suitable for use in a high magnetic field. CRT (and plasma?) displays are unacceptable due to environmental interference with their display.
In the case at question, it's easy to write the RFQ. Needed: one OS and office application suite capable of supporting email, basic text processing, spreadsheet, databases and web browsers. Compatibility with existing document format is desirable, but shall not be a disqualifying factor if the new format is sufficiently self-documenting to eliminate "lock-in."....
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
The law does not prohibit people in Maricopa county (which I live in) from purchasing Microsoft products. It just says that government agencies in Maricopa county can't purchase or contract out to companies that have been convicted of violating federal or state antitrust laws.
IMHO, this was probably to keep monopolies from paying off people in local governments in return for them spending enormous sums of money on that company's products and/or services.
Some people seem to have the impression that this is just purchasing policy. Well, it ain't. It's state law. It's from A.R.S. (Arizona Revised Statues) 41-2613: Debarment and Suspension of Contractors.
"3. Conviction or civil judgment finding a violation by any person or any subsidiary or affiliate of any person under state or federal antitrust statutes."
It's a law, just like the laws against embezzlement or assault. It's not just a suggestion, it's a lot more. I hope the folks at PLUG carry this one all the way to the goalposts.
I believe that the URL name alone should convince the government types that Linux is a serious community to base its computer systems on.
The written summary of the article that was posted on the front page of slashdot did indeed refer to Microsoft as "criminals". A rebuttal directed at that, and not the article itself, is still pertinent to the slashdot discussion, which after all, is initiated with the editorial summary and submission text!
I don't know that this'll make a difference - I doubt many companies purchase directly from Microsoft, but rather from Dell or Compaq
The best thing about a boolean is even if you are wrong, you are only off by a bit.
You mean the clueballs that have to be constantly re-educated on a daily basis even when the software hasn't changed? Got that allready.
This is absolutly wrong, and anybody doing this should be smacked around. If you're keeping a document then you want it EXACTLY how it was originally. If you're working on a document you might want to convert it. If you create a new document it had better be in the new format. That's how it's gotta be done to maintain sanity and archive integrity.
- RustyTaco
well, actually, this was a rather intelligent response to a problem that had plagued arizona for years prior to Ev Mecham and his bunch (we had rampant corruption in this state with regards to contract negotiations prior to 1990). In a lot of ways, the law which prevents the county from negotiating contracts with convicted criminals/entities was designed to prevent even bigger problems. Lets hope it works in this case. BTW, anyone happen to have the e-mail addresses of the county board members handy?
proudhawk (aka Technomage)
Understanding is much like a 3-edged-sword. in this: there are always 2 sides and the truth.
You forgot to mention the one fact that most people will recognize: Maricopa county contains Phoenix, Scottsdale, and Tempe.
Phoenix is, as I recall, the fifth largest city in the U.S.
Uh, now *you're* the one coming off as an "anti-Linux zealot". Not sure what your OS of choice is. Obviously neither Microsoft *or* Linux, and it sounds like not BeOS or OS/2 either.
Therefore, I'm guessing you're either a Solaris junkie, or a frustrated BSD user who hates the fact that Linux steals the spotlight away from them so often.
Since you automatically find fault with OS/2 and BeOS for their "proprietary nature" - I'm thinking you probably prefer BSD.
Anyway - I stand by my original statement. Linux is quickly becoming the only option left other than Microsoft for a viable x86 OS.
Apple could add an interesting twist to things by releasing an x86 version of MacOS - IMHO. But I'd also be willing to wager they'll never do it. Why? Because that would instantly devalue/invalidate all of their hardware. (Why pay a premium for a proprietary Mac when you can run the same thing faster on a late-model x86 processor?)
BTW, I never discounted BSD at all. I just question its ability to be competitive at this point in the game. By the very nature of its licensing, people can easily take portions of its code for their use in any other project they like. While that's great from a philosophical standpoint, and will keep it strong and viable with certain sectors - it also nullifys its significance as a stand-alone OS choice.
AKA. "My company, Widgets, Inc. - sees no point in implementing BSD Unix. We're already using the advantageous portions of their networking code as built-in firmware in our routers. All the applications can run under Linux. In fact, my copies of Windows NT use many of their command line utilities, ported directly over from their source code. If I want to buy commercial support, it's available from a number of vendors with Linux. Not so with BSD."
it's fixed