XPlay: iPod with Windows

meanie writes "Mediafour, a company which specializes in cross-platform software introduced the XPlay software to link up your iPod with Windows. Looks like a solid product, but since I didn't buy an iPod due to lack of a Mac, I haven't been able to check out the software. Anyone try this yet? I might just buy an iPod now."

Comments

Time to go to CompUSA

[ejaw5]

Now if I get an Ipod I can go to CompUSA and download Office XP from a Windows PC onto the Ipod's hard-drive.

Re:Time to go to CompUSA

[RebelTycoon]

Only if the box has a FireWire card in it... And that's not very common so unfortunately you are stuck only being able to download iMac stuff.

Of course, you could always use the iToshiba if you are really that much of a thief.

Is it that hard to just use Kazaa or even pay for software?

Re:Time to go to CompUSA

[matthew.thompson]

No - Office v.X on the Mac is mostly self contained within it's own folder - many Mac products' install instructions are as simple as "Darg this folder to your hard-drive".

Office XP on Windows requires product activation and ties itself extensively into your Windows Registry.

So there's another reason to buy a Mac - software is easier to install :o)

Re:Time to go to CompUSA

[edrugtrader]

So there's another reason to buy a Mac - software is easier to install^h^h^h^h^h^h^hpackage and pirate

Re:Time to go to CompUSA

[Aqua OS X]

Almost all new desktops have FireWire now. The trick is getting Xp to read a hard disk in HFS+ format.

Works pretty well (in beta, anyway)

[Hollinger]

I tried out the beta version with the 5 gig model. It works pretty well. I think they did a good job of extending the iPod's audience.

One thing that the poster failed to note was that it does allow you to seamlessly transport files between the two platforms, and, in some cases, will even aid in file translation, by reading the MacOS file descriptors and translating those into simple extensions (.mpeg, .doc, etc.)

I wonder if Steve's going to patch the iPod to make it incompatible with 3rd party software such as this?

Re:Works pretty well (in beta, anyway)

[afidel]

I wonder if Steve's going to patch the iPod to make it incompatible with 3rd party software such as this?

The answer is no. The reason is why the hell would he, other than being a controll freak? And the solution even if he did is to just not upgrade the firmware, that is the nice thing about appliances, if they are working you don't have to fix them =)

Re:Works pretty well (in beta, anyway)

[dhovis]

I wonder if Steve's going to patch the iPod to make it incompatible with 3rd party software such as this?

Don't be silly. This software saves Apple a lot of trouble. It will shut up everyone who has been clammoring for Apple to provide windows software, but Apple doesn't actually have to support it.

The iPod is just a portable hard drive. The difficulty was getting Windows to be able to read the HFS+ filesystem, and the only thing that had to be reverse engineered was the iTunes File format.

When Mediafour first anounounced this product, they called it xPod. Apple asked them to change the name and they complied, but that was the only request that they made. If it helps Apple sell more iPods without having to pay for support, Apple wins.

Re:Works pretty well (in beta, anyway)

[nachoworld]

I've also tried the beta version and they've worked extremely well and the features had been improving with each of the 6 beta version.

To answer your question, Apple and Mediafour have always had an understanding. Mediafour has previously made the successful Macdrive, which let PCs read Mac files. Other than Apple's request for Mediafour to rename their product from XPod to Xplay (Xpod sounded too similar to iPod), Mediafour has gotten the unofficial/implicitly understood ok from Apple.

Re:Works pretty well (in beta, anyway)

[Zeinfeld]

I wonder if Steve's going to patch the iPod to make it incompatible with 3rd party software such as this?

They are probbly not that clueless, but trying to boost sales of Mac by tying the iPod to it was a real clueless move in the first place.

The problem Jobs has is that the iPod market is 5% of the size of the market that Archos, Nomad et. al. have access for. I don't think anyone is ever going to buy a Mac just to use an iPod.

While the software probably works OK the only way it is going to allow iPod to significantly penetrate the Windows market is if Apple has enough clues to bundle it.

Apple could have rescued the company by switching from being just a computer company with a stagnant and declining market share to an intelligent device company. But it can't do that if they tie their new products to trying to save their old one.

What Apple management simply canot get into their heads is that the fanaticism of Apple users does not mean that the rest of the world is wanting to switch to Mac.

Re:Works pretty well (in beta, anyway)

[Dephex Twin]

Apple could have rescued the company by switching from being just a computer company with a stagnant and declining market share to an intelligent device company. But it can't do that if they tie their new products to trying to save their old one.

Yes, they are on the brink of collapse, aren't they? Better abandon ship before it's too late!

Thank you for the insight, Elmer FUD. Apple is doing just fine at the moment.

trying to boost sales of Mac by tying the iPod to it was a real clueless move in the first place.

Was it? It sure sweetens the whole package. But do you really think they make money from it? I'd bet the profit margin on the iPod is very slim, whereas the profit margin on a PowerMac is larger than the retail price of the iPod (in any case, much larger). They would need to sell many many iPods to get the same profit as they would make if they pushed one person over to owning a Mac. And "converting" someone to the Mac is more valuable than just the monetary amount as well. Once the person has a Mac, they are probably going to buy more Apple products.

Apple is looking out for the long term, and placing a few more iPod sales at such high importance is IMO shortsighted.

I don't think anyone is ever going to buy a Mac just to use an iPod.

No. But would they buy a Mac for the great Powerbook plus an iPod? And OS X? And the iApps? Etc etc. Don't you see that the iPod is just one small piece in this total user experience that attracts people to the product?

mark

Re:Works pretty well (in beta, anyway)

[bnenning]

I don't think anyone is ever going to buy a Mac just to use an iPod.

How do you know that? Look at all the publicity the iPod got. While I doubt many people saw it and immediately rushed out to buy an iMac, it's entirely possible that it caused many people to consider getting a Mac when they might not have otherwise.

Apple could have rescued the company by switching from being just a computer company with a stagnant and declining market share to an intelligent device company. But it can't do that if they tie their new products to trying to save their old one.

Apple is one of the few consistently profitable computer companies in today's market; they are hardly in need of "rescuing". The entire point of their intelligent device strategy is that designing the hardware, software, and OS leads to a superior user experience. Take that integration away, and you reduce Apple to a generic peripheral manufacturer.

Re:Works pretty well (in beta, anyway)

[2nd Post!]

What does the fanaticism of Apple users have anything to do with the rest of the world wanting to switch to Mac?

People *do* want to switch to Mac, that's not the hard part.

The hard part is that it's more expensive to own a Mac than it is to own a PC.

iPods *have* been selling Macs.

People go in to look at the iPod and see a Mac. People see a Mac and think, "Wow!"

Macs really are all that, except that you pay more (about, what, 20% more?) for less performance.

But if you aren't a gamer, you won't notice the loss of performance.

And if you're into scientific or engineering fields, the OS X Unixy goodness makes up for the loss of performance. Besides which you'd just ssh into your big iron anyway.

Re:Works pretty well (in beta, anyway)

[tshak]

What Apple management simply canot get into their heads is that the fanaticism of Apple users does not mean that the rest of the world is wanting to switch to Mac.


There is some truth to this. However, as a Windows user and early day Linux user this is the first time that I have EVER considered buying a Mac. True, the iPod should be cross platform (I'd have one by now), but at the same time it is a selling point (albeit a small one). Also, Mac's have been gaining some serious marketshare. The main reason I dropped Linux was all of the hardware issues (I appreciate the fact that it's gotten a lot better of late but I have yet to try the latest distro). With a Mac, I get a Unix with a very cool GUI all with true plug and play. Once the applications mature for OS X, I'm sure I'll be buying myself a used G3 to compliment my Win2K boxes. From my anecedotal evidence, I conclude that I'm definitely not the only one looking to buy a Mac for the first time.

Re:Works pretty well (in beta, anyway)

[Zeinfeld]

I have macs running that are 8 years old [and older] and they still work just as well as they did when they came out of the box. Nothing has been replaced in these, I just added some more RAM. That's something you don't usually see in wintel machines... instead you see planned obsolescence.

That does not sit too well with my experience at the AI lab. Every model of powerbook required its own power supply - a trick that some WinTel manufacturers like Sony have adopted but many do not.

More seriously, incompatible interfaces introduced to force purchase of a new monitor with a new machine, render peripherals obsolete, etc. etc. Even when people were sold a machine with the promise of upgradability Apple thought nothing of breaking the promise - which eventually was made good in a consent decree.

Still the Apple appologists will go on supporting the company no matter what in the manner of a party pundit on a sunday morning talk show: "President Bush has been filmed holding a gang bang on Air Force One, how does that stand with his promise to maintain familly values and bring honour back to the White House?", "Well I think it sits very well, you will note that he held the gang bang on Air Force One and not the sacred soil of the Oval Office as did the anti-christ Clinton and in fulfillment of his 'familly values agenda' he made sure that invitations were sent out to his wife and children".

Re:Works pretty well (in beta, anyway)

[Smurf]

"Shares of Apple tumbled $2.12 to $18.03 after hours, widening their year-to-date loss to 17.7 percent" [....] hardly what i would call "consistently profitable"

You are confusing stock prices and profitability. Although profitability (and profitability announcements and rumors) DO affect stock prices, there are a lot of other factors involved. In fact, you may be very surprised by Microsoft's stock behavior in the last years.

[...] also last quarter 2001 was the first point that Apple turned a profit, so they are not exactly brimming with stability

You've got it all wrong. The quarter prior to that one was the ONLY one in which Apple did NOT turn a profit in several years.

Re:Works pretty well (in beta, anyway)

[Jucius Maximus]

"I wonder if Steve's going to patch the iPod to make it incompatible with 3rd party software such as this?"

No. Apple was smart enough to wait for someone else to make PC Software for the iPod so that the huge PC Market would buy the product but Apple wouldn't have to support this large chunk of users. This is *exactly* what Steve wanted: he gets to sell products but not support them.

Re:Works pretty well (in beta, anyway)

[Oculus Habent]

If you follow it more closely, you know that Apple's HW & SW costs/sales are tightly connected. This is why Apple pulled the Licensing for the OS some time ago - the loss of hardware sales was taking money away from OS development.

Also, the faster, cheaper hardware you refer to lacks one thing: Drivers.

Sure, people can write them, and companies can offer them, but then you might introduce the system instabilities that plague Windows. Apple thrives on the "it just works" to the point that it is part of the Switch campaign. PCs can't claim that because there are too many variables.

Think about it - Apple has even taken steps to prevent you from interfering with the Mac's functionality. Only the PowerMac G4 has slots - everything else connects with standardized, plug-and-play, hot-plug technologies. Unless you disconnect drives while they're in use or run unstable software, the Mac just keeps on running.

I don't think they'll try to stop XPlay becuase it doesn't have the one thing you can't get on a PC: the seamless, intuitive integration of a Mac.

Re:Works pretty well (in beta, anyway)

[rbolkey]

They are probbly not that clueless, but trying to boost sales of Mac by tying the iPod to it was a real clueless move in the first place.

I would have to disagree. The iPod is just a part of a very sweet package that Apple has been putting together. When you combine OS X, the iPod, T-Books, their cinemascreen monitors, etc, I'm finding myself considering an apple very seriously for the first time ever (i thought it would never happen). The sum is really greater than the parts.

Re:Works pretty well (in beta, anyway)

[Dephex Twin]

Apple made a loss last year and in its previous year only made 750 million, that is not so good for a computer company, Dell made $1.2 billion and $2.2 billion in the same periods.

I don't understand the comparison. Apple and Dell are the only computer manufacturers that have made it through the crash. Okay, great. How is Apple dying or faltering or anything else?

OK so AAPL revenues grew from 1998 to 2000, but they crashed in 2001 and in 1998.

Apple had a massive overhaul in 1998. This is when all the old stuff started going out, and the new was coming in. They completely streamlined their operation. After that transition, Apple has been performing quite efficiently. So what? Again, how does this indicate one way or the other about Apple today?

While many computer manufacturers have been firing employees by the thousands, Apple let 50 employees go. Honestly, say what you will about Apple, it's been pretty widespread thinking that Apple is chugging along pretty darn well.

On the contrary, the iPod can sell for a much higher percentage markup for good design than a computer can.

Now you are just making this up. Yes, in theory, anything's possible. Just because, in your opinion, an iPod can have a greater profit margin doesn't make it so (and in fact it isn't so).

The iPod retails for $500 which is about $200 higher than competing products from the likes of Archos - and the price differential is maintained after inevitable retail discounts.

More like $100. But this is irrelevant. Just because the iPod retails for $100 more than an Archos product doesn't mean that Apple makes an extra $100 on that device. In fact, it is extremely unlikely. You are ignoring things like superior design and materials. The iPod syncs with firewire, which also charges the iPod at the same time. The Archos runs on batteries. I won't get into it all. The point is, Apple just plain isn't making a huge profit on these things compared to their computers. It doesn't matter if you can construct a theoretical world where this would be possible.

You just piled so much FUD on top of what you originally wrote that if you continue I'm going to have to hire part-time help in order to shovel it all.

mark

Re:Works pretty well (in beta, anyway)

[Hollinger]

Well, one little note: last time I checked, Apple has a fairly small market share (single digits, anyone?). So does BMW. And Mercedes. And Bentley. And they're doing fine.

Re:Works pretty well (in beta, anyway)

[Zeinfeld]

Interesting, these days on slashdot you can criticise Linux, you can even praise Microsoft, you can even criticize Israel without getting modded down. But state some facts about Apple and you are going to get modded down as a troll.

I think that is more evidence that the Apple fanatics are in denial.

As for the current state of the company. I don't think that the computer hardware business is going to be particularly good for anyone in comming years. Apple and Sun are always going to be most vulnerable because they use custom processor designs and do their volumes are simply not great enough to fund enough R&D to keep up with Intel and AMD.

Even the Apple fanatics in the thread admit that Apple performance is off by 20% compared to Intel. That is despite the advantage that PowerPC has of a RISC instruction set. Apple no longer sell their machines on performance, three years ago they did. What happens in three years time when the performance gap is likely to be Intel is acknowledged to be twice as fast??

And don't try to pretend that performance does not matter. Three years ago we were being told it was everything and users would flock to Mac to get performance (even though Apple has never led in price/performance).

Re:Works pretty well (in beta, anyway)

[Zeinfeld]

Yes, folks, let's just ignore the Gartner Group's report and teams of statisticans and accountants, and take the snecdotal word of Zeinfeld, local Slashdot Apple-bashing troll.

I would rather trust Andersen than Gartner, Giga or any other of the analyst firms.

Are you referring to an independent, unbiased report or was the report commissioned by Apple?

The way most analyst reports work is that a company pays the analyst company a lot of money and the analyst company then produces a favorable report. If that turns out to be impossible the report does not get published.

Because people tend to be dubious of analyst reports purchased in this way a lot of analysts now insist that they publish 'independent' reports. What this means is that the analyst is not paid for the report itself, they are paid to participate in conference calls with financial analysts, or other 'consulting' activities.

So, yes, I am ignoring the Gartner report, none of the analyst companies has any credibility with me whatsoever.

Re:Works pretty well (in beta, anyway)

[BigBir3d]

Not to mention the financial report that Apple releases every year. Please note that the total sales for 2001 were off by about 32.5% from 2000.

iPod

[OmniVector]

The iPod is amazing. It's hard to believe no one has released a better mp3 player and it's been out for over a year or more now. There was a recent article about it on Zdnet, talking about USB2 vs FireWire on the iPod. Anyways, the fact that it now has software support for windows should definatly boost its sales. I'm surprised Apple didn't release a client in the first place for Windows. Now i just have to wonder why i would possibly do with 10 gigs of music?

Re:iPod

[Peyna]

10 gigs isn't really all THAT much. I just converted my entire CD collection to mp3s not too long ago, only about 100 or so CDs and it was 4 gigs worth of 128 kbps mp3s. (If someone really wants to check my math, go ahead, the 4 gigs is right, the number of CDs is close, but I might have done 256 kbps).

10 gigs is enough to keep you happy for sure though. You could probably put everything you owned on there, and then have room to add new stuff for a few years.

Re:iPod

[weave]

10 gigs on my iPod and pretty high bit rates claims 5 and a half days of music and 1650 songs. Remember, this is only supposed to be a portable. I can't imagine listening to all that at once. If you get sick of that 10 gig set, just toss it and transfer another 10 gigs from your computer (actually, 9.2 gigs, I hate gig == billion crap).

I knew the software was in development....

[Merconium]

But haven't tried it. I think Apple may have really screwed itself now that Toshiba and SonicBlue (Rio) both have very nice Win-compatible HD based players. Sure, you can't get your name engraved on them.... :)

Deja vu :)

[justin_w_hall]

This sound a little familiar to anyone else?

Guess the editors lack some long term memory. :)

Re:Deja vu :)

[Sc00ter]

Also the fact that XPlay has been out since the iPod's been around :)

Re:Deja vu :)

[afidel]

The reason it's in the news again is that this is the final 1.0 product, not a technology preview or beta.

Re:Deja vu :)

[mccalli]

XPlay costs money, Ephpod is free

Ephod is free, but in order to use it you require Mac-drive reading software such as MacOpener or MacDrive. XPlay comes with this built-in.

In other words, a direct comparison should include the cost of getting HFS+-mounting software in the first place.

Cheers,
Ian

Re:Deja vu :)

[freeweed]

I really have to start collecting posts with the words 'deja vu' in them - then I could make a neat little completely redundant post with links to previous posts pointing out that what you're saying has already been said on /. over and over and over and...

Another option

[Erv Walter]

Another option is EphPod.

experiences

[heavy]

I bought an iPod for about 2 months now (the 10GB version) and I don't own a Mac. My Gateway notebook only has a 4-pin (??? the small one anyway) FireWire port, but it works fine with the iPod.

I downloaded the XPlay beta versions and have had success using it since the beginning, although there have been a few hiccups along the way.

I just purchased XPlay 1.0 online today, but have not installed it yet. The last feature that I was waiting for was to be able to permanently disable the system tray icon and now they say that they enabled it...so I am happy.

Overall, a good product...although I do wish I could copy my MP3s from it, instead of only to it.

I did try my iPod with my mom's iMac/iTunes and it worked great...definitely the best way to go, but XPlay is the next best thing.

-> richard

Re:experiences

[jht]

The 4-pin FireWire port is perfectly compatible with iPod (or any other FireWire/1394 device, for that matter) - it just lacks the power leads that the larger port provides. So your Gateway notebook can't charge the iPod, but will be otherwise fine. Some devices (but not iPod) might require that power come from the FireWire bus, in which case you'd probably need a repeater with A/C power in.

All Macs have the 6-pin port that provides bus power. Add-in PCI FireWire cards do, too.

Just as a side note - all the DV camcorders I've seen (including my Canon ZR40) use the 4-pin variant - it takes up less space.

A costly little toy

[falser]

$499 for the iPod, plus ~$30 for a firewire addon card (unless you have one on your mb, or have SBAudigy), plus $30 for the software... adds up to a very pricey little toy on a Windows machine.

I've been sitting on the sidelines for a while now because of the costly barrier to entry, and pretty much given up on the iPod. Toshiba's unit, though maybe not as cute and revolutionary, makes a whole lot more sense on a Windows system both technically and financially.

Re:A costly little toy

[swb]

I have a Sony MZE3 Minidisc player (and a home deck too), an Intel Pocket Concert 128M and I keep finding neither one of them perfectly satisfying.

The iPod looks sweet, but the cost seems just too much. In the past 20 years I've owned easily a dozen walkmen (most high-end Sonys) and they always broke -- sometimes the mechanisms gave up, but usually they just got dropped/squished or otherwise manhandled. I can't imagine that computer with HDD could be that much more rugged that after a year or so it didn't crap out too.

I'm going to give this Teac MiniCD MP3 player a try to see what its like. It seems like a good compromise between an MP3 player and Minidisc player -- more music per disc than Minidisc/solid state MP3 and faster recording time and definitely more affordable given the breakability of a $499 iPod.

If the iPod was $199 and had USB I wouldn't mind it. The funny thing about USB is that its only *truly* annoying for "real-time" transfers of a dozen songs where you sit there waiting. Drive mes nuts on my Intel 128M. I wouldn't have a problem moving a couple of gig over, since I could just let it go and come back in a couple of hours.

Re:A costly little toy

[freq]

yeah the ipod is a costly little toy.

have you looked at the archos mp3 player?

twice the space, plus recording, plus $100 less plus runs on AA batteries, plus linux/windows/mac software.

thank you.

Re:A costly little toy

[falser]

The Toshiba is USB 2.0 (USB1 compatible), so you're saving at least $60 over the iPod - that $60 is like the last thorn, I'm just not willing to budget that kind of money for such a tiny, single-function device.

Anyone looked at the cheap portable CD players in Best Buy lately - they cost (no kidding) $25! Now tell me that burning a few CDR's and using a cheap cd player won't hold anyone over until better, cheaper options are around.

Re:A costly little toy

[falser]

I axed the idea of getting an Archos after a work-friend got one which eventually died because of battery problems. That, and the manufacturer wasn't very cooperative in repairing the unit.

Re:A costly little toy

[2nd Post!]

Sure, burn yourself 10 CDRs and you're set :)

Or 18 CDRs for the 10gb version.

Oh, but you're not talking about an MP3 CD player.

Um, okay, then you're actually talking about 50 CDRs for the 5gb version, and 100 CDRs for the 10gb version.

I have to admit it's a luxury to be able to cart around 5gb of music around. I only have 3.5gb myself, but it's a real joy to use.

Re:A costly little toy

[2nd Post!]

Hmm, you list $499 for the 10gb iPod, $30 for the firewire card, and $30 for the software.

You do realize that the Gigabeat from Toshiba is only 5gb? If you want 10gb you need to buy a removable 5gb PC disk drive for $321?

So it's now $559 vs $725? The iPod is cheaper.

And if you're comparing to the 5gb version? Yeah, it's $459 vs $402. A $57 advantage to the Toshiba, which is bigger and bulkier, so you can say, you're paying for the size convenience.

Re:A costly little toy

[lucas_gonze]

I have an Archos Studio 20 and wouldn't recommend it. Intensely buggy -- constant power problems and disk errors. I'll probably chuck it and buy an iPod when iPod Linux support is mature.

Re:A costly little toy

[evilned]

My wife has an iPod, and I have a iRiver slim 350 mp3 disc player. Both surived our 18 day backpacking trip around europe fine. Although for battery life, the iriver kicked the iPods ass. I ony charged it once on the trip, but that was with the add on battery pack that takes 2 aa batteries. Both however worked flawlessly for the entire trip and are in great shape.

hmmmm

[colmore]

no matter how cool a portable music device is, i really just can't justify a purchase in the multiple hundreds of dollars for what is basically a slightly better discman.

it's like spending an extra $1000 on a PC just to play games and pirate DVDs.

give that cash to something more worthwhile.

Re:hmmmm

[freeweed]

it's like spending an extra $1000 on a PC just to play games and pirate DVDs.

OK, I can find you a PC for under $100 that can do word processing, go on the internet, and play games. What can't it do that an $1100 'power' system can? Play new games and DVDs.

Hmmm....

Re:hmmmm

[psxndc]

it's like spending an extra $1000 on a PC just to play games and pirate DVDs

Ummmmm... isn't this exactly what drives the sale of upper end PC's? Games and video editing (the former driving sales since forever, the latter more recently)?

Anyway, what you're paying for is the quality and the convenience. One reason I ditched my discman (and to be honest don't own a portable yet) is because I hate lugging around even five CD's with me. This thing holds 100's. On top of that, it doesn't skip and it's easy to navigate. If it had an input port for recording I would have bought one a long time ago (though 400 clams is still pretty steep).

psxndc

Re:hmmmm

[colmore]

Maybe a lot of people edit videos, but $1000 extra bucks for basically the functionality of a $200 Playstation 2, and not even then, because a low-end computer will play all the newest games, just not on the *highest* resolution and at the *maximum* detail.

frankly i think graphics look worse at 1600x1200, the polygons get so big that it completely ruins the illusion. if you're hitting framerates above 30, it doesn't matter how much higher you go, and i usually can't notice too much of a difference.

owning a $3000 computer is a lot like owning a $60,000 car. there really isn't any point, and you could have put the money to a much better use.

actually a Pentium II with 128 Megs of ram and a 2 year old video card will still run almost every game currently on the market. hardware has WAAAAAY outpaced software.

HFS Plus for Linux

[bill_mcgonigle]

There's a sourceforge project for HFS Plus on Linux listed as an alpha kernel patch which seems usable as of 6/6. HFS Plus is the filesystem used on the iPod, and Linux already has good 1394 mass storage support, so somebody just needs to roll a nice song browser, and the linux users can have an iPod too.

OK, Linux users probably don't need a song browser, but it sure would be nice. ;) ;)

Re:HFS Plus for Linux

[mccalli]

... somebody just needs to roll a nice song browser, and the linux users can have an iPod too.

Well...not quite. There's more to iPod manipulation than just filesystem and IO device support. There's a proprietary database in there too. That would need reverse engineering.

Cheers,
Ian

Re:HFS Plus for Linux

[mccalli]

Any idea how the shareware products work that set ID3 tags to let you use your iPod as a contact manager? Do they just let iTunes handle the database management?

Yes. That's exactly what they do. They set up zero-length mp3 files that have ID3 tags which match contact information.

They become obsolete after Apple released firmware 1.1 though. Firmware 1.1 has a built-in address book and can accept vCards. Stops the ID3-tag trick from being necessary.

Cheers,
Ian

paperweight

[nanoscrew]

my ipod was amazing for the time that it worked (about 5 days). Xplay was amazing, worked without flaw. I blame their lack of a "beta expired" message for killing my ipod. They put an error up instead which read "your ipod must be disconnected and reconnected to function since you recently did an ipod restore". I then proceeded to try other programs to fix it, ended up formatting the entire hard drive, and now whenever i plug it in it reboots my computer. xplay, i loved you, but why in hell did you not give a simple "beta expired" message??? my 400 dollar toy is now a farking paperweight!!!

Re:paperweight

[smagoun]

What, BETA software broke your toy?

"Doctor, it hurts when I do this..."

Re:paperweight

[usr122122121]

[snip!]... my 400 dollar toy is now a farking paperweight!!!

Quick fix:
1) Find a mac.
2) Use the mac to restore it to Factory Condition.

Waiting for Ogg Vorbis support

[dfn5]

The iPod looks pretty cool and I would buy one, however, I am waiting for Ogg Vorbis support. MP3 is a lame technology due to software patents. Not to mention that my entire CD collection is in Ogg Vorbis format and I am not about to convert it. But as soon as Apple sees the light I'll be all over it.

Apple is Next!

[feldsteins]

The word on the street is that Apple is going to release their own Windows iPod software as soon as Macworld July. Remember you heard it here first. Unless you heard it somewhere else already :)

I suppose it's a good idea. Tons of folks have speculated that Apple sells more Macs because people want iPods and need Macs to run them. This may be true, but perhaps the iPod can be the "gateway drug" of PC to Macintosh conversion for some.

Re:Apple is Next!

[neema]

When I read your post, I got really excited. I've been using the iPod with xPlay successfuly in the past, but now it just doesn't work with it. Which is fine, I've got almost 10gigs of music on it, but I'd like to change some of the songs.

So when I heard that Apple was releasing software, I was happy about that, though skeptical.

Check out the article and it reads: "Apple will introduce a Windows version of the iPod". Not Windoiws iPod software as you claimed. They are specifically talking about an iPod for Windows. I'd rather they develop software for it, because I'd feel pretty dumb while having a mac-pointed iPod, trying to get it working with my Windows machine, while there was a Windows version out.

Re:Apple is Next!

[feldsteins]

C'mon. They're not going to re-engineer the unit just to add Windows compatiblity, especially since none is required. What they mean is, "buy an iPod in a box with Windows software on a CD inside." That, to me anyway, is what "iPod for Windows" means.

Re:Brilliant!

[smd4985]

I've had my iPod with XPlay for about a week now, and it is simply amazing. What I'm most excited about is that being able to carry 1000-2000 songs in your pocket is a true innovation. Digital Music is here to stay simply because it is way too convenient compared to the other alternatives - the RIAA may try to sue small tech companies out of existence, but it won't matter. Consumers will demand digital music for years.

more space is always better

[stego]

I though 10 GB would be plenty too, but now I have 12+Gb of MP3s...

Re:instead of wasting time..

[dfn5]

Right, because reinventing a piece of hardware is much easier than reinventing the software to access it.

Been an XPlay user since beta 4

[mccalli]

I've been a user since beta 4. Beta 4 blue-screened my system, so I got involved with the beta forums.

Since then things improved rapidly, and the company is responsive to what people say. The software is working well for me (final beta, not upgraded to 1.0 as yet) and they even added a playlist-related feature that I requested.

Its advantage over Ephod is that it includes an HFS+ reader with the software. Ephod requires you to have some form of Mac drive-reading software already (MacDrive or MacOpener), whereas XPlay comes with a stripped-down MacDrive driver anyway.

Cheers,
Ian

Quick question

[MrFredBloggs]

Whats the problem with a solid state solution? Would it be expensive/hard to have a little box with a firewire/usb socket on the side, and 256/512/1024 mb of standard pc ram inside? With the speed of firewire, it wouldnt matter if turning it off made you lose all the data - you`d just download what you wanted again. What sort of battery would you need to keep that much ram refreshed for, say, 12 hours?

lame due to patents?

[bill_mcgonigle]

It's worth noting that since iTunes and iPod are commercial products, Apple has covered the necessary licensing fees for you (read, passed them on to you), so if you're only using a Mac/iTunes/iPod for your music, you don't need to feel guilty about not paying any licensing fees or using a product illegally.

If the issue is just that you don't want to use any products covered by patents, you'd have to get rid of most of your appliances, cars, computers, electronics, etc., living in the woods with home-built tools. OK, you could have electricity and a phone but you'd have to buy a service panel and phone that were more than 17 years old. Most new phones have DSP's, and the DSP code is covered by software patents. It's a grim reality, but reality nonetheless.

Re:lame due to patents?

[dfn5]

Your talking about replacing a patented technology using a patent free technology that is 17 years old. I'm talking about replacing a patented technology with a patent free technology that was developed recently and is comparable if not better than MP3. And the adoption of this technology is growing by leaps and bounds. It is only a matter of time before Apple jumps on the bandwagon.

iPod incomplete without iTunes

[toupsie]

When the iPod was first announced, I ragged on it. Another MP3 player, YAWN! I already have a 6gig Archos Jukebox, why would I want an iPod? When it hit the stores, I still had to see one -- its an Apple product and I am an Apple Zealot. I walked into a store asked to see one, played with the jog wheel for 1 minute, looked at the display, pulled out a credit card and bought the sucker.

Its great that Windows users will get to feed MP3s to this player, however, without iTunes, I think you will be missing the full "iPod Experience". I don't think I have ever seen a hardware product work so well with software. Its just plain seamless. Even my Mom was able to figure it out on the first try when my Dad gave an iPod to her after seeing mine. The VCR flummuxes her -- it has flashed 12:00 for three years.

I am sure that XPlay is some devious plot by Steve Jobs to get all of you guys to switch. I don't see how XPlay can compete with iTunes in dealing with the iPod. iTunes is the best UNIX based MP3 player around, if not the best MP3 player, period.

Re:iPod incomplete without iTunes

[TheSync]

The VCR flummuxes her -- it has flashed 12:00 for three years.

Many new VCRs have a feature that sets the clock based on an XDS signal broadcast by PBS stations. Maybe the blinking clock will be forgotten in a few years...

Re:iPod incomplete without iTunes

[toupsie]

Now that's cool. Majority of the time when I walk into my "non-techie" friends's houses, their VCR is always in that state. I would have thought they would have captured the radio signal from the Navy Nuke Clocks like the soothing sounds, clock radios at Sharper Image but I guess XDS will do the job just as well.

Re:iPod incomplete without iTunes

[EvlG]

Or just get a TiVo.

Better features, easier to use, more convenient, and it sets the clock automatically (even on DST!)

Re:iPod incomplete without iTunes

[toupsie]

iTunes is grossly lacking in configuration options, any winamp user using iTunes would be appalled at the lack of functionality.

Configuration options? Like playing music? iTunes has both 'Play' and 'Stop' along with some fancier controls that allow to advance music forwards and backwards. It even has this whiz-bang feature that automagically rips MP3s just my inserting a CD and labels the MP3s with ID3 tags. All of this for free!

And, yes, I too was once a Apple biggot. Then I mended my ways, got a CS degree, and found Linux.

Ew, sorry to hear that. I heard those CS degrees don't pay off in the long run. Guess things must be rough for you financially when you are having to use a free 'UNIX-like' operating system on cheap x86 hardware instead of a real UNIX operating system like Apple's Mac OS X on well designed, complimentary hardware.

[tongue removed from cheek]

Re:iPod incomplete without iTunes

[plumby]

Mine's got this feature, but it's also got an analog clock. First time I plugged it in, I wondered what the hell was noise was as the clock spun round to the correct time.

Re:iPod incomplete without iTunes

[Llywelyn]

"Sure, it 'automatically' syncs up the iPod, but what happens when you have 6GB of mp3 and a 5GB iPod?? "

Step 1: Click on the iPod button.
Step 2: Select "Manually Manage Songs and Playlists"
Step 3: Manually manage your songs and playlists.

"iTunes is grossly lacking in configuration options, any winamp user using iTunes would be appalled at the lack of functionality."

Either that or thrilled with the ability to find everything at a glance.

"And, yes, I too was once a Apple biggot. Then I mended my ways, got a CS degree, and found Linux."

Odd. I was thinking about converting completely to linux, but I mended by ways, got a CS degree, and found MacOS X.

ephpod w/ mac opener is far more stable

[Anonymous Coward]

Ive used several of the xplay betas and they all had serious issues with 'write errors' and corrupted song databases. Several times my only fix was to wipe the ipod clean and start over which was frustrating, but the software was beta what was I to expect? Im now using ephpod + mac opener on XP and its been solid as a rock and its interface is far superior to that of xplay IMHO -- way more features.

http://www.ephpod.com/

I would highly recommend this as a better alternative to xplay.

I can't use it

[Mr_Silver]

I'd love an ipod and to use it on both my work PC and my home PC. Installing a firewire card on my home PC is not a problem - but totally out for my work PC.

So unless there is some sort of Firewire -> USB convertor then I'll never be able to transfer files to/from machines which don't have a firewire card in. I simply can't pop open my work PC and stick a card in - they'd have hysterics.

Shame really for me, but for a lot of people this probably won't be a problem.

Re:I can't use it

[stephend]

You must work long hours! 1000 songs at 4 minutes each is... um... nearly three days. I've had an iPod since January and never felt that I needed to refresh it with more songs half way through the day.

Re:I can't use it

[Mr_Silver]

I've had an iPod since January and never felt that I needed to refresh it with more songs half way through the day.

:o)

I have a 56k modem at home and a big fat pipe at work. Therefore it would make more sense to download and place the music on the ipod at work, rather than home.

Re:XPlay is okay

[mccalli]

I haven't figured out a way to order the songs, though.

Took me a while to get this. Switch to viewing in Detail mode - you can then drag the tracks around to the order you choose.

Well, in playlists at least. Haven't tried it when just looking at albums or the whole song list.

Cheers,
Ian

Re:Brilliant!

[Lumpy]

wow you should look at the better players more.

My NEXII is a CF card, just plop mp3's on the card and go.. no drivers needed, no silly database or other software.

Any mp3 player that requires any kind of database or other data structure other than reading the card and the tags is over-engineered and is probably full of DRM junk.

question for windows iPod users

[paradesign]

how do you update your iPod?

xPlay & iPod - music & file backup

[AugustFalcon]

I have been doing the beta test stuff with xPlay on my 10 gig iPod and purchased the 1.0 version yesterday.

I had a few minor problems with a couple of the betas with respect to firewire ports. In my case the Audigy Fireway ports sometimes hung, but many others had no difficulty whatsoever with the Audigy cards. I went to the Adaptec Duo card and have had no problems since.

I have about 1,663 mp3s at 140 kbit or so encoding and have used about 7.34 gig of the 9.27 or so available. I use the remaining 1.92 gig to backup the office data daily. Works great. Obviously, it is not a longterm backup solution but it amounts to the belt part of my "belt and suspenders solution." It gives me that little extra comfort level.

Now I just need to find a cassette adapter which will work in my GM car radio and I will be happy.

Re:ARCHOS JUKEBOX

[zvogt]

As an Archos Jukebox owner, I can say I'm quite happy. More storage, half the price. By the way, if you get one of these it's worth noting that Archos intentionally mislabeled the AC adapter that comes with the unit as a 9V DC output, which should ring 10-11V under no-load conditions. In reality it rings approximately 15-16V, so I assume it needs to supply a steady 12V under load. This is important if you want to buy a DC adapter to power the unit in a car for example.

Re:Brilliant!

[MungoBBQ]

You should check out the excellent and cheap MP3-player Diva, which has received very high marks from users at MP3.com.

It can be bought with different amount of built-in flash memory and has a CompactFlash Type 1 slot where you can put inexpensive CF-cards to expand the memory.

This player does not even require any driver installations under Win2000/XP and is said to work with Linux (according to Diva themselves, read the FAQ). The memory card shows up as a removable drive in Windows when you connect the USB cable and it's extremeley simple to download or upload MP3s from/to the player. Yes, you read me right, no security protocol so you can easily move music from one computer to another too.

I just bought one and I couldn't be happier. Best player I've tried so far and definately lots of bang-for-your-buck.

Re:FireWire (USB 2.0 on archos 20 recorder!!!)

[Anonymous Coward]

This may be true for the older Archos devices, but the Archos 20 recorder has a USB 2.0 interface which should compare quite well with the firewire interface of the iPod. Besides, how many people are really going to be actively transfering multiple Gigs of MP3s back and forth between their player and their computer? I would expect that most users will load all of their music on their player once and then not have to worry about it, save for loading on new music as new CDs are purchased.

I will agree that the UI on the archos isn't the most lucid, but it works well enough. I don't think this is as strong of an argument on this board since I'm sure that most of the linux users here didn't stop using linux just because of a less-than-perfect UI.

IMO, the cost of the iPod is still too high when compared to devices like the Archos 20 recorder. I honestly cannot see the need for spending $200 more for a device with a smaller drive and a firewire-only interface. This is fine if you've only got an iMac and want to work with iTunes, but not so if you have other hardware that is more expandable (ie, can have a USB 2.0 card added to it). My archos works just fine under linux and win2k and if I dropped a USB 2.0 card into my aging beige G3 (which has neither USB or firewire on its motherboard), I'm sure it would work just fine there as well.

Durable

[Ster]

I've have a 5GB version for about six or seven months. For the first few, until I got myself a belt-clip for it, I carried the little guy in my hand most of the time.

I usually have decent coordination, but I guess there's something about having $500 of hardware in your hands that makes Nature want to mess with you. I somehow managed to trip two or three times while carrying my iPod, each while it was playing. There wasn't a skip, pop, distortion, or anything like that. When I plugged it into my iBook, it came up just fine, I could transfer files and music... In one case, I broke my fall with my hands, which put most of my body weight on one corner of the iPod. The result: a barely visible dent.

Overall, I've found my iPod to be VERY durable. The poor thing's been dropped, broken my fall, been sat on, been in my backback going to and from campus on the bus (where backpacks routinely get kicked, tripped over, etc.), and I recently even left it sitting in the glove compartment of my car for one of the hottest weekends in Houston. No problems, and no damage beyond some faint scratches. (They really should have made the thing BRUSHED aluminum! Scratches don't show up as well, and neither do fingerprints!)

Your mileage my vary, of course, but I don't consider my iPod to be very breakable.

-Ster

P.S. MacWorld did an iPod "Torture Test" in March 2002, and it held up quite well. Unfortuately, the article is not online, and I don't have that issue here right now. -S

SourceForge project

[bill_mcgonigle]

Geez, I hate to reply to myself....

There is a project at SourceForge gathering the pieces necessary to make this work.

You forgot one:

[2nd Post!]

c) has a particularly inefficient and inflexible filesystem

That's right, you can move files around on a Mac because most file references are to the file and not it's path!

One of the benefits of metadata; the file name, the file path, and all the file attributes are aspects of a file that can change without affecting the file itself. Very useful and worth more than just a piracy tool.

Re:DO NOT BUY an iPOD

[Colol]

It helps if you're playing with facts rather than a bunch of crap which isn't accurate.

1. No, the battery isn't replacable by the user. But it holds a 10 hour charge quite admirably, and it's a long-life Lithium-based battery. By the tame you would need to replace the battery, you wouldn't be using the iPod you have now anymore.

2. Of course you have to send it to Apple for a battery replacement. It's a special battery built just for Apple. However, it is trivial to dissassemble the pod and remove/replace parts.

3. 90 day warranty is accurate. However, you can obtain a very cheap 2 year warranty from many brick-and-mortars selling it, Apple has been known to support it past the warranty, and many credit cards will double your warranty time.

4. I've dropped my iPod 5 times. It still functions, and it isn't any worse for wear. The things are built to be solid, which is why...

5. Solid state doesn't matter. First of all, 5 or 10 gigs in solid state would be ungodly expensive. Beyond that, though, the iPod *IS* solid state when it's playing! Unless your song exceeds half an hour, the hard drive comes on only long enough to copy it into the iPod's RAM, then shuts back down. There are no "moving parts" to worry about for most songs. On top of that, the drive used in the iPod is one of the smallest and most rugged drives on the market.

Re:Brilliant!

[Lumpy]

it does start up right away.. and my IBM microdrive is much much larger than the assumed 64 meg card.

so yeah it's only 1 gig but it still is pretty close to what most people have in music in their portable player..... and tons more than anything sony or the other solid state devices have.

Re:I'm tired and it's PUN TIME!

[dalamcd]

No, no, it's pronounced 'ten-play'.

dalamcd

Re:FireWire (USB 2.0 on archos 20 recorder!!!)

[sporty]

Unless the Archos does something that much better than iPod and has better marketing, iPod might have market share on mp3 players. If that is true, iPod support goes up, so does support and development. And the ball starts to roll..

Not to say that there won't be a killer product released by someone else. I'm just stating what I perceive to be the current state of affairs. :)

Wait a few months...

[Fross]

although there's always something coming a few months away ;)

the PJB300 (next generation of the PJB100, the first ever harddrive-based mp3 player) should be out during 3rd quarter of this year. its featurelist is unreleased, but the first one has:

40G harddrive (60G soon!)
smaller than nomad jukebox
12 hour battery life
open source SDK (and good linux support)

and that came out 2.5 years ago!

so there's a fair amount of clamouring over what the new one will do. suffice to say it should (and will have to) kick the ipod's ass.

fross

Re:Wait a few months...

[NeMon'ess]

Do you have a link? Google turns up nothing and I didn't see anything on the company website. Maybe I missed it.

Re:Wait a few months...

[crawling_chaos]

smaller than nomad jukebox

Whee... That's like introducing a new laptop and saying it will be lighter than ENIAC. The Nomad is fscking huge.

$299

[hotsauce]

It's $299 in the clearance section of their online store. If you're an Apple customer, you've got their $25 Macworld's-coming coupon, so it's $274.

Not too shabby for what's widely regarded as the best mp3 player.

Portable units have difficulty with Ogg.

[Fross]

mp3 codecs are written/available with integer-based decoding, whereas ogg requires floating point operation.

hence portable mp3 players, with the eye on cost and efficiency, usually only have integer-based chippery for decoding. (excuse the vague terms, running out of my technical arena here...) and hence can't run Ogg.

i know there are "wrapper layers" to allow floating point operation on integer-based platforms, but these have not caught on, maybe they require even more horsepower that these chips can't supply? again, there's no reason for them to use more powerful chips than needed to support mp3...

personally i'd love to see ogg support, i think it's a great codec. but to the rest of those in this thread saying "mp3 sucks, ogg rocks!" - it's all subjective. high bitrate mp3s (256-320kbps) sound as good as the source. no question. ogg probably does at lower bitrates (192?). but they can both perform to as high quality as the human ear needs, it's just a matter of efficiency.

Fross

Re:Portable units have difficulty with Ogg.

[Sloppy]

mp3 codecs are written/available with integer-based decoding, whereas ogg requires floating point operation.

Sharp Zaurus running the Kompany's player, can play Vorbis w/out fp.

Integer implementation is available. The only thing slowing down Vorbis from catching on now, is that the player makers don't see sufficient demand, I guess. The solution to that is to not buy any player that doesn't play Vorbis. So I won't. I'll just keep using my CDDA-only player from the mid-90s until someone gets it right.

It will eventually work, I hope. (And if I could think of any use for a PDA other than playing music, I'd buy a Zaurus.)

Uh, no, that's not right

[fm6]

The iPod is just a portable hard drive. The difficulty was getting Windows to be able to read the HFS+ filesystem, and the only thing that had to be reverse engineered was the iTunes File format.

M4 solved the HFS issue long ago. That's what their existing product does. And cloning iTunes can't be that hard. When the Beta version of XPlay was still on their web site, the release notes said that the basic product was done, but they were still working on making it work with a lot of non-compliant 1394 hardware. Presumably a non-free 1.0 product means they beat that problem.

If it helps Apple sell more iPods without having to pay for support, Apple wins.

Hmm, that assumes they actually make a profit on iPods. Dunno whether they do. Probably, since they haven't given M4 a hard time, except for the trademark issue.

Childish of me, but I have to revive a discussion that occurred back when the iPod was released. I posted here wondering why Apple insisted on depriving the iPod of 90% of the potential market by using a proprietary file system. Got a lot of flames in response, the gist of was, "Because, stupid, the purpose of iPods is to sell Macs. You don't think they can sell that thing for $400 and make a profit do you?!!!"

Re:Uh, no, that's not right

[drumgeek]

While perhaps their intention was it would sell more Macs, Apple can, and does sell the 5GB iPod at 400 bucks and make a hefty profit. Look at a possible iPod competitor, the Toshiba GigaBeat. It uses the same 1.8" hard drive the iPod does, yet its removable and uses a PC card interface(read: more expensive), and they are marketing it for 400 dollars as well. Apples integrated solution, using their own software and hardware technologies, has to be much cheaper to produce. Although perhaps it was Apple's intention to sell more Macs with iPod technology, they KNOW its a good thing that 94% of the computer world is now able to use the iPod, which will bring in massive revenue to use to produce even more cool hardware (which will then, of course, be hacked to work with Windows).

Re:Uh, no, that's not right

[dhovis]

Apple makes tons on the iPod. Not that long ago, the Apple Store was charging $99 for the VST Firefly 5GB firewire drive which has the same HD mechanism as the iPod. I'm pretty sure that it does not cost Apple more than $300 for the controller chips and the display. Remember, the iPod has been on the market for ~8 months now. They've paid off the R&D costs by now, and the components have only gotten cheaper, particularly the 1.8" Toshiba mechanism.

Now, when the iPod first came out, I belive that Apple was selling them with a low markup, but today they are probably making as much margin as they do on an iBook, and possibly more. The reason they are still so expensive is that the iPod still has no reasonable competition.

You are right about the Windows problem, though. It did have more to do with crappy 1394 hardware on many Intel platforms than with the filesystem access, but that is another reason that Apple would not want to get involved in writing a Windows driver, it would be just as difficult, and Apple would not get as much slack as M4 will.

Re:Uh, no, that's not right

[fm6]

I guess my cute little comment wasn't very clear. I was just getting back at the bozos who flamed me because it was "obvious" that Apple was selling the iPod at loss. Anway, you're right, the requisite hard disk is very cheap. In fact, I've been looking at various SmartDisk products based on the FireFly. $150 for a 10 GB drive that speaks USB and Firewire. Just the thing for sharing files between my Dell work machine and my Vaio laptop.

You're also right about the lack of competition. Two products come close: the Kanguru kit (which has power consumption issues, or so I'm told), and the Creative Jukebox 3, which would actually be the better product (more disk space, more audio features, an obscene number of inputs and outputs) if it weren't so damned big.

I'm really puzzled. With such a hot product category, and nice off-the-shelf hardware to build it with, why isn't everybody jumping on this bandwagon?

No time for VCR.

[fm6]

Not. Most of the time my VCR can't acquire a signal at all. When it does, half the time it's from a cable station the wrong time zone, so the clock gets set one or two hours off. I set the damn thing by hand.

Some WinPoding Links

[mclaugh]

WinPoding forum at Ipoding.com

Apple Ipod Forums

Ipodhacks

IpodLounge forumss at IpodLounge.com

Everything Ipod-accessories

What about iPod Firmware?

[Slur]

I assume none of the Windows-based solutions have any means to update the firmware of the iPod itself, which is too bad. But maybe these folks can go the their local Apple Store and ask one of the Geniuses(TM) to take care of it...?

Full Retail vs. Street

[Mulletproof]

Come on. Does anyone actually think the Gigabeat is only going to be $8-$50 (depending on whom you believe) cheaper for less hardware? lets get real. That would be the most assnine marketing mistake in the world and most companies don't get to Toshiba's size with those kind of mistakes. Granted, there's always a first... But until somebody can quote me a real "I have it in stock right now" price, PLEASE give it a rest. I know everybody here has name brand loyalties, but jeez...

Re:Full Retail vs. Street

[2nd Post!]

Um, you mean like people in Japan?

Anyway, we're comparing the iPod MSRP with the Gigabeat MSRP. You can find the iPod for up to $20 or $30 cheaper, or even $100 when bundled, but the point is that Toshiba is selling (www.shoptoshiba.com) the 2gb disk for $299 and the 5gb disk for $399 right now, which in now way makes the Gigabeat price competitive with an iPod of the same size.