Slashdot Mirror


POV-Ray 3.5 Rendered

Marty writes "The very long awaited version 3.5 of POV-Ray is available. POV is the pre-eminent open source ray tracer. The new version has many wonderful improvements and is able to allow amateurs and pros alike to generate CG images to drool over." I spent many hours mucking about with POV back in the day. Course CPUs are a little faster now, so my guess is those render times don't suck as bad.

270 comments

  1. What sucks is... by jayhop · · Score: 0

    the lack of artistic vision in our mind.

  2. Good fun by atcurtis · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I remember having great fun with POV years ago... It was also very good to poke around at to learn how a ray-tracer works. I'd also recommend the book "Tricks of the Graphics Gurus" for those who don't have it.

    --
    -- The universe began. Life started on a billion worlds...
    -- Except on one where stupidity was there first.
    1. Re:Good fun by Agent_Eight · · Score: 1

      If you're talking about the book by laMothe, I can't say I was impressed by that. So far the best book on graphics I've found was "Computer Graphics : Principles and Practice" put out by Addison Welsey. It deals with more of the details. The Guru book did have some tidbits but I just seems like everyone is putting out books on graphics and Game writing without any real substance. Just my 2cents.

      Hell, I even found "Computer Graphics" by Hearn/Baker in 86 to have more substance. Sorry I'm ranting.

    2. Re:Good fun by nomadic · · Score: 1

      Great way to hone your abstract spatial skills too. It teaches you to think in 3d...

    3. Re:Good fun by atcurtis · · Score: 1

      I might have my synapses crossed...

      I might have been thinking of "Revolutionary Bitmapped Graphics" which has a walk-through chapter on writing a simple ray-tracer.

      --
      -- The universe began. Life started on a billion worlds...
      -- Except on one where stupidity was there first.
    4. Re:Good fun by bitweever · · Score: 1

      This takes me back. I had POV-Ray that I ordered out of a shareware catalog, back before the Web was everywhere. Seems like it came on 6 floppies or something like that.

      I remember leaving my 386-25 on for days at a time to get through one 640x480 rendering. That takes me back.

    5. Re:Good fun by atcurtis · · Score: 1


      Do you remember wishing for that 80387sx co-processor? At one point I was umming and ahhing between the IIT, AMD and Intel parts... No mag had a review over which one was better.

      --
      -- The universe began. Life started on a billion worlds...
      -- Except on one where stupidity was there first.
    6. Re:Good fun by bitweever · · Score: 1

      I actually had a 386 DX (32 whole bits). Started out with 4MB of RAM, eventually expanded to 8. I did eventually get a mathco for it, seems like it was an IIT. That thing rocked.

    7. Re:Good fun by Warped-Reality · · Score: 1

      the book by Andre laMothe is "Tricks of the Windows Game Programming Gurus"... not too bad of a book, i liked the chapters on AI and such.

      --
      This is not the greatest sig in the world, no. This is just a tribute.
  3. Just remember... by cca93014 · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...rendering a glass sphere over a chequered floor has NEVER been done before. Try it!

    1. Re:Just remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, so what the heck does our esteemed CmdrTaco have here?

    2. Re:Just remember... by Volta · · Score: 1

      A chrome sphere over a checkered floor.

      Not at all the same thing. :)

    3. Re:Just remember... by EverDense · · Score: 1

      No, I believe Microsoft might be claiming IP on that design.
      Microsoft Claims IP Rights on Portions of OpenGL

      --
      http://jesus.everdense.com/
  4. POV by prestomation · · Score: 2, Informative

    For all you newcomers, POV stands for Persistence-Of-Vision.

  5. POV Ray! by Qwerpafw · · Score: 2, Interesting

    POV Ray is great. I had a quick course in POV-Ray when I was a freshman in high school, and it introduced me to C-like programming, and gavee me a solid understanding of how 3D rendering works. Both have served me well in the years since.

    Plus I made cool art :)

    POV Ray should be taught to all kids to give an understanding of both how computer programming works, and to dispel the notion that everything computers do (and CG in general) is just 'magic.'

    I'd comment on new features, etc etc, except that their website appears to be slashdotted. Maybe in a bit.

  6. Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by DG · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Is there, anywhere, an open-source modeler that is as easy to use as Lightwave?

    Don't say "Blender" - that has to be the most obtuse UI ever programmed.

    *sigh* I miss LW.

    DG

    --
    Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
    1. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by Deagol · · Score: 4, Funny

      I think Moray is featured on the site. Haven't used either, though. I craft my spheres and checkerboard floors by hand, thank you very much.

    2. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by Skyshadow · · Score: 3, Insightful
      If the OSS tools aren't up to your satisfaction, why not go buy a commercial package and use it?

      The strength of OSS is that you can change it to meet your needs, and that over a long enough timeline this means that it tends to evolve into what the users need it to be. As such, the tools tend to become superior to their competitors in the long run. In the meantime, assuming you're not up to making the changes yourself (don't sweat it -- I couldn't code my way out of a paper bag, either), tinkering with the OSS tools and complaining is just a big waste of your time.

      OSS is about freedom as in speech, but as a side effect it also allows freedom as in choice of products (which, contrary to common belief, is what really chafes Bill G's hide). Exercise that.

      --
      Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
    3. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by parkrrrr · · Score: 3, Informative

      Moray's not open source, but it is a nice POV-centric modeler. There are also utilities to convert objects created in other modelers to be used with POV; lots of people use those to create objects and then glue it all together with some hand coding.

      There have been attempts to create open source modelers for POV in the past, but they were collaborative projects from the start and the unfortunate truth behind open source is that it seems to work best if one person does a lot of the design and coding before getting all those eyes to debug. Design by committee just seems to lead to stagnation.

      Personally, I do it all by hand, when I actually have time to use POV as opposed to helping write it.

    4. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by Geekboy(Wizard) · · Score: 1

      Blender

      *snickers softly*

    5. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by FreeUser · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So many modellers have the opposite problem ... no (free as in freedom) rendering engine. For older versions of POV there were various modellers of various quality ... none quite up to Blender or Lightwave's quality IIRC, though it's been a couple of years since I've looked for one (like you, I'm now back in the market, however).

      Don't say "Blender"

      I agree, but not for the same reason as you. Blender is a closed-source product that stores its data in a proprietary format...when Blender goes away, all that hard work and all those cool animations become so many random bits.

      - that has to be the most obtuse UI ever programmed.

      Here I disagree. For many things Blender has the easiest interface I've seen (for others things like Lightwave are better). It is different that what users of Lightwave would be used to, but it is by no means obtuse. Indeed, things like their particle system and spline animation controls are fantastic. Just because you're used to something doesn't necessarilly mean thats the best way to go about doing it (the same goes for some Blender bigots who dismiss other modellers as well ... as far as I've seen none of the modellers have a monopoly on the Right Way to do things, and some manage to make things easy that the others complicate, by virtue of the GUI design choices made).

      However, I too would be interested in a good modeller and animation choreographer frontend to POV. Perhaps its time for a few of us to get together and start throwing one together. :-)

      --
      The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
    6. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by photon317 · · Score: 2


      Sounds like a good project, why don't you write one and GPL it? Make it use GTK or QT for the GUI and OpenGL for the wireframing and previewing and whatnot, and backend it to povray.

      --
      11*43+456^2
    7. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Blender's interface isn't as complicated as it looks, but it's REALLY REALLY different. I don't necessarily mean that in a good way, though. Plus, their failure to include an UNDO function is just plain idiotic.

      Anyway, if you like subdivision surface modeling, check out Wings3D at http://www.wings3d.com. It's basically a clone of Nendo (which is pretty much impossible to buy now, as result of izware's incompetence), and has a really slick interface.

      It's just a modeler, so you'll need something else to handle texturing and animation, but it exports to several popular formats.

    8. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by SanLouBlues · · Score: 2

      Personally I just use VIM to write .obj files. Sure NURBS are a bit hard to do at first, but after a while you can just see a scene appear right out of the numbers as they scroll down your screen.

    9. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by protohiro1 · · Score: 1

      If you are making duckpins II I am sure this is adequate. The art has progressed far beyond this point, however, and I think anyone who has been exposed to Maya or lightwave gave never settle for less. I think graphics software is something that will be hard to get to a very high level with OSS. Modeling is complex, nightmarishly complex. Maybe you can write nurbs out be hand. But what about trims? Blends? How about Subdivivsion services? And can the oss community come up with something that handles all these essential tools...and is as efficient to use as something like Maya?

      I am sure the answer is no. Sure OSS can make a gread word proc, even an operating system. But don't forget, the source for Maya is longer than win2k.

      --
      Sig removed because it was obnoxious
    10. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by jjoyce · · Score: 1

      I used Moray for a long time. It's pretty good and has probably drastically improved since I was using it in 1996-97 (the DOS version!)

    11. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by Neon+Spiral+Injector · · Score: 2

      I've been using POV-Ray since 0.5 (still have the 5.25 inch floppies I ordered from The Software Labs, as I didn't have anyway to connect my computer to others to get the software back then).

      I've tried various modelers, but always end up going back to coding the scenes by hand. I haven't done much with POV lately, but still always have a copy of the latest release on my machine just incase I feel the need to raytrace. I'll have to snag the latest when the servers cool down a little.

      Thanks for the work, parkrrrr, and the rest of the POV Team.

    12. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by toneby · · Score: 3, Informative
      > Blender is a closed-source product that stores its data in a proprietary format...when Blender goes away, all that hard work and all those cool animations become so many random bits.

      Now, go away to www.blender3d.com and read that page... and then come back and continue to read.

      Yes, Blender is closed sourced, but it will be GPLed or get a similar license, with all old and new development released, hopefully this will happen soon, I long for a new dose of blender...

      For those looking for a pov-modeler take a look at truevision seems pretty nice, and probably need a bunch more testing by all of you, so give him/them good bug-reports and feature requests now :)

    13. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by SanLouBlues · · Score: 2

      I was just going a long way for a Matrix joke :). I use performer, and it is as of yet unmatched IMHO.

    14. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by SpaceJunkie · · Score: 1

      Yes but that somewhat limits modelling to the elite hacker types - who tend to have all the artistic talent of a staffordshire blue brick.

      Yes I am a coder, and yes I have hand-coded vertices before - and I shudder to think about ever doing it again. Why doesnt someone reading this now- poised ready to post another article go over and start the source tree for an OSS modeller ui right now...

      (Does that mean maybe I should volunteer for starting this?)

      I can see this turning into a license/language holy war if I mention which I will use - so I think I will just get on with it.

      Any other takers?

      --
      OrionRobots.co.uk - Robots From sol
    15. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by jfedor · · Score: 3, Informative

      Blender is a closed-source product that stores its data in a proprietary format...

      True, but it might change soon.

      -jfedor

    16. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by Jaysyn · · Score: 1

      Kinda like the Matrix, huh?

      Jaysyn

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
    17. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by ChrisMG999 · · Score: 1

      "You get used to it after a while. I don't even see the code anymore...all I see is blonde, brunette, redhead." --Cipher

    18. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You shoud try wings3D. It's Erlang based and -if I'n not wrong- the same open source license. It's just a modeller, but for polygon based models, it's in a league of it's own (well, if we don't count mirai)

      DavidPardo

    19. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by NanoGator · · Score: 2

      Lightwave is down to $1,600 right now. I bought it for $1,000 early in the year because they were promoting Video Toaster 2. If you watched a VT2 demonstration, they'd sell you LW 7.5 for $1,000.

      I'd recommend keeping an eye on Newtek's site, they're always running deals like that.

      May I ask why you wanted open source in particular? Just curious because there really isn't a whole lot out there. Lightwave's probably the best deal you're going to get. (unless you want to purchase Maya and Renderman...)

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    20. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by FreeUser · · Score: 2

      Now, go away to www.blender3d.com [blender3d.com] and read that page... and then come back and continue to read.

      Yes, Blender is closed sourced, but it will be GPLed or get a similar license, with all old and new development released, hopefully this will happen soon, I long for a new dose of blender...


      That is indeed good news (and I've quoted you so that those reading at +2 will see a portion of your comment and perhaps click on 'parent' to read more).

      I've been periodically checking out http://blender.nl/ for news, but thus far haven't seen anything at all promising. Is there any news on how close the Free Blender Fund is to reaching its 100,000 Euro target for purchasing the sources and releasing it under a Free License?

      In any event, thanks for the very informative link (and you are right, truevision is cool as well).

      --
      The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
    21. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by tux-sucks · · Score: 1
      Wings 3D

      Very small application, and not the most powerful thing in the world, but in 5 minutes you'll be modeling.

    22. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by dindinx · · Score: 1

      Have you tried Giram (http://www.giram.org/) ?
      It's a nice modeller I'm working on. Still on development, but I'm working hard on it to make it usable. Giram use Povray to render and can read and save Povray files.
      Have a look at the site for more information.

      --
      DindinX
    23. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by dindinx · · Score: 2, Informative

      I do. Giram (http://www.giram.org/)
      is a GPLed Modeller, use povray as backend, and gtk+-2.0 for the gui.
      Give it a try.

      --
      DindinX
    24. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by drix · · Score: 3, Funny

      I cordially invite you to join my "Slashdot Nerd Get a Sense of Humor" support group, which I will be opening on Yahoo! Groups later today.

      --

      I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
    25. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      To hell with basic modellers I just wish there was a linux native version of poser.

      Poser + lightwave made an awesome combination. and the fact that POVRAY is now pretty damned close to being useable for making most animation shorts or even feature films (NOT for 20billion dollar movies you dummy, for Student or amateur films!) I would love to see more people making animation and physics interfaces... (Yes, I know you can do this already... but I dont want to write a perl program for every different project I do.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    26. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've tried 'em all, and Moray is by far the best modeller for POV. It gives you an inuitive GUI for all the native POV language, and has a pretty good set of plugins for extended functionality. There's even a beta (but very capable) animation plugin. It also has inverse kinematics, and a good texture editor. For 80 bucks, it's a real good deal.

      I haven't tried POV3.5, but I know POV 3.1 and MegaPOV work with Moray. With photons turned on, Moray/MegaPOV is an incredible graphics tool.

    27. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look at this page before to say that blender is obtuse:
      http://www.anilusionfilms.com.au/juicy/
      and after try this tool to export to povray3.5 (or megapov0.7):http://jmsoler.free.fr/util/blenderfil e/povanim.htm

      A blender bigot.

    28. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wings3d, written in Erlang and uses SDL (Released under a BSD licence).
      It was made to resemble Nendo, but has now IMHO surpassed it, although it has no support for textures yet, and therefore not the kickass 3dpaint feature of Nendo, but it's getting there.
      Plus, it runs on all platforms capable of running Erlang and SDL :)
      http://www.wings3d.com

    29. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by CondeZer0 · · Score: 2

      If you want an Open Source(BSD style license), multi-platform 3D modeler, check out Wings 3D(http://www.wings3d.com/

      \\Uriel

      --
      "When in doubt, use brute force." Ken Thompson
    30. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who's the fucking retard who moderated that as funny?

      Funny is when I rip your nutsack off and choke you to death with it.

    31. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WARNING! These "support groups" are used by the Slashdot crew to recruit assholes for filthy homosexual gang-bangs.

  7. Lego library by crow · · Score: 2

    Four or five years ago, I did some ray tracing based on a LEGO castle I had built. I used Netshade (a version of Rayshade) with a library for the bricks that someone had created.

    Doing a quick Google search, I see that there are now libraries for Povray, as well, now.

    Does anyone have experience with doing this? I'm thinking it would be cool to make a movie of some knights marching through my castle, or a train running around.

    1. Re:Lego library by jsproat · · Score: 1

      LGEO parts library: http://www.ldraw.org/download/win/lgeo

      L3P to make POVRay scenes: http://www.ldraw.org/download/win/l3p

      Which uses LDraw: www.ldraw.org

      a sampling of what it can do (on my website): http://www.sproat.us/jeremy/lego/stickfig/wallpape r/

      --
      "I've spent the past few years building up an immunity to bullets." - Angus McGuire
    2. Re:Lego library by ulianov · · Score: 1

      I just made my own Legos; they're mostly rectangular anyway, so not hard to model. To show you some examples of what POV can do, this is some stuff I've rendered with them: http://davidf.faricy.net/image.php?pic=blackseasba rracuda3.jpg http://davidf.faricy.net/image.php?return=gal_c699 .html&pic=phalanx_blur.jpg http://davidf.faricy.net/image.php?pic=lego8865.jp g http://davidf.faricy.net/image.php?pic=iceplanet.j pg Just wanted to plug my site. Now be sure and follow the "Back to Gallery" link as image.php doesn't have the hit counter. ;)

  8. Pre-slashdotted.... by BMonger · · Score: 2, Funny

    When I clicked on the pov-ray link there was only one comment and it was already slashdotted... sheesh! Don't you people ever post before you visit links? :)

  9. If you aren't familiar with povray... by pavos · · Score: 5, Informative

    ...check out the Internet Ray-Tracing Competition at http://www.irtc.org to see what povray is capable of. Besides being a great collection of impressive pictures, it is an invaluable source of objects, textures and techniques for povray beginners and masters alike.

    1. Re:If you aren't familiar with povray... by rabidcow · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Also check out http://www.oyonale.com/

      Gilles Tran has done incredible stuff with POV-Ray. (plus there's all those funky stories in the book of beginnings)

    2. Re:If you aren't familiar with povray... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No shit, look at this fucker, looks REAL!

    3. Re:If you aren't familiar with povray... by Nachtfalke · · Score: 1

      Holy cow, those pics are really awesome.

    4. Re:If you aren't familiar with povray... by bedessen · · Score: 2

      Gilles Tran has done incredible stuff with POV-Ray. (plus there's all those funky stories in the book of beginnings)

      Yes, and if you look closely you can really see his attention to detail.

    5. Re:If you aren't familiar with povray... by 0x0d0a · · Score: 2

      Wow.

      Also, the models he uses are impressive.

    6. Re:If you aren't familiar with povray... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you talking about? He got the purple in the wrong spot.

  10. Mac OS X Support by TeamSPAM · · Score: 1

    While I'm happy to see OS X directly from povray.org instead of some port. I didn't think OS X 10.2 would be available until Auguest 5th.

    --
    Brought to you by Team SPAM! where we believe: "Information in the noise!"
    1. Re:Mac OS X Support by davidmccabe · · Score: 1

      Unless you want a fancy GUI, you have Mac OS X support. You write INI files and use a terminal, just like everybody else.

    2. Re:Mac OS X Support by TeamSPAM · · Score: 1

      The comment was more about the fact that the requirements for POV-Ray on OS X was 10.2. Which I mentioned hasn't been released yet.

      I really don't need a gui as I generally call it from a script to create some data driven images (the jpeg links, not the PDFs).

      --
      Brought to you by Team SPAM! where we believe: "Information in the noise!"
    3. Re:Mac OS X Support by davidmccabe · · Score: 1

      This was also before I managed to connect to the server, and see that they haven't provided source (icky icky icky cathedral).

  11. Duckpins II? by dattaway · · Score: 3, Funny

    When is the sequel?

    1. Re:Duckpins II? by necama · · Score: 1

      Well, reading the duckpins page, I see that the sequal is coming out in 2034.

  12. Text of article... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    POV-Ray v3.5 is Now Available

    It is with pleasure that the POV-Team announces that POV-Ray version 3.5 is now officially available for the Windows, Macintosh and Linux platforms.

    In development for well over two years, v3.5 is a major improvement over all previous versions, not only in features, but in stability and the quality of the documentation and included example files. Of course, we don't claim it to be bug free (in fact, here's our known bugs list), but given our extensive alpha, pre-beta and beta program we feel that what we are releasing today is a stable, well-tested piece of software that can be used with confidence.

    Since our first internal alpha version (early 2001), we have built 6 alphas, 14 private pre-betas, 16 public betas, and 6 release candidates to get us to today's final 3.5 release. During this time we read, reviewed, and in many cases answered over 12,000 newsgroup postings in our private and public beta test forums, resulting in many hundreds of bug fixes and improvements.

    The POV-Team would like to extend its heartfelt thanks to all those who helped to make this possible, and particularly to our dedicated group of pre-beta testers, who not only performed testing functions but also made major contributions to the scene and documentation files, not only during the pre-beta stage but right up to the days before the final release.

    The POV-Team co-ordinator, Chris Cason, would also like to extend his personal thanks to the POV-Team members who worked long and hard on this since we started on it all those years ago. Your dedication is truly appreciated.

    [July 09, 2002]

    1. Re:Text of article... by frovingslosh · · Score: 3, Funny

      That seems to have posted everything I didn't care about and left out the main point: So what is new in Povray 3.5?

      --
      I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
    2. Re:Text of article... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2, Informative
      So what is new in Povray 3.5?
      Quoting the headlines from the New Features page:
      • Noise Changes
      • Photons, Dispersion and Improved Radiosity
      • New Light Source Types and Light Groups
      • Isosurface and Parametric Objects
      • Sphere Sweep Object
      • New More Compact Mesh Object & Solid Mesh
      • UV Mapping
      • Improved Textures
      • Improved and Faster Media
      • New Patterns
      • New Functions
      • Additional New Features
        • Reading of JPEG and TIFF image formats
        • Projected through
        • More realistic attenuation
        • New clock keywords
        • New image size keywords
        • Inverse transform
        • Spherical camera
        • New float function: inside
        • Splines
        • Metallic reflection
        • Mapping using warps
        • Double illuminate flag
        • No image and no reflection flags
        • Basic Unicode Support
        • Declare a float constant from an INI file
      • Bug Fixes and Enhancements
        • Light source enhancements
        • Fixed normal average, reflection and other related problems
        • Fixed cylinder camera problems
        • Fixed the use of multiple closed bezier-splines in prism
        • Fixed infinite cone bug
        • Fixed the use of two subsequent colors, not separated by a comma in checker, hexagon and bricks.
        • Fixed gamma correct bugs
        • Numerous other bug fixes and optimizations
      If you want to know more, you have to read the whole page yourself.
      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  13. Let's see your ray traces by ManDude · · Score: 1

    Post your rays. I haven't seen the great art work of the ray tracer since back in university. Only the nerd of nerds had their own home brewed ray traces. Post it up...

  14. I remember... by superdoo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I remember rendering the included Chess scene on a 386DX33 and it took almot 72 hours at the resolution and quality that we selected. Later, when my parents bought a spiffy brand-new Pentium 100 it took 15 minutes!

    Does anyone else remember POV smacking them in the head with Moore's Law?

    1. Re:I remember... by Sabalon · · Score: 3, Informative

      I used to render some stuff on my 386-33, and then at the last Atlanta Linux Showcase (1998?) they had some beowulf cluster or something running. The display showed something that looked like a quilt of liquid metal with reflections being rendered. It was moving around as if alive.

      Then they said that each frame (at about 30fps) was being rendered real-time by PoV.

      Had what you were talking about taking Lightwave from a 486DX4-20 to a dual PentiumPro200 machine. Slow as hell now :)

    2. Re:I remember... by Malc · · Score: 1

      I remember the same kind of thing. It was hard finding something simple enough to run in just 15 minutes. Wasn't it do with the lack of floating point unit on the 386DX? The supplementary maths coprocessor was integrated in to the main CPU in later generations of the Intel x86 line (either 486 or Pentiums). Those were the days when Fractint was truly amazing as it was the only decent fractal generator that didn't require the coprocessor.

    3. Re:I remember... by Deagol · · Score: 2
      I discovered POV-Ray on a BBS back in 1995. I had a 386DX-40. My favorite included scene was those funky fish. I remember tracing that scene at 640x480 at full quality with anti-aliasing and it taking a day or two of dedicated compute time (I used the DOS version to squeak every last cylce out of the box). Now I can do that same scene at 1280x1024 in minutes.

      For my own scenes, it was like this: Add an object, start render before bed, see results in morning, add next object, start render before work, see results when I got home. Repeat.

      Gotta love those slow days.

      Some day (maybe 10-20 years from now?) we'll hopefully be able to render our way through POV-Ray scenes in real-time. Wouldn't that be sweet!

    4. Re:I remember... by Admiral+Burrito · · Score: 2

      Wasn't it do with the lack of floating point unit on the 386DX? The supplementary maths coprocessor was integrated in to the main CPU in later generations of the Intel x86 line (either 486 or Pentiums).

      Right. The 386 and 486SX did not have integrated FPUs. The 486DX and up did, and in the Pentium it was dramatically improved (which is why Quake required a Pentium).

      The lack of FPU was the only difference between the 486 SX and DX. Reportedly, on early versions of the SX the FPU was actually present but disabled.

    5. Re:I remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Before I found POVRay I was using a little ray tracer called vivid (I'd provide a link, but the author stopped supporting it and the only one I found was on geocities). I remember running this raytracer on my 286 and waiting 5 days for a single scene to complete at 640X480. Then I got a chance to try it out on a friends 386 and we were rolling at just around 1 day. The last machine I played with this on was a 486 and I got that same image back in 20 minutes. I thought that was the end all be all. Man to get something in 20 minutes that took 5 days just 2 years earlier. I kept that 486 way longer that I should have.

    6. Re:I remember... by morcheeba · · Score: 2

      I worked at a company building a small satellite. For fun in my few off hours, I did a POVray animation illustrating the various stages of deployment - the solar cells deploy, then the first antenna, then the second, etc. I did a small animation on my 100MHz 486 laptop and management commissioned a high quality large animation to be done in 4 days.

      I rigged up 13 unsuspecting computers at the office - just about our entire inventory of brand new P90's. Imagine - over a Gigahertz of processing power at my disposal! Luckily, I had been dabbling in multiprocessing and wrote a simple client and server software to manage it all. Each frame took about 30 minute to render, and the whole thing was done in about 12 hours (300 frames=10 seconds of video).

      The file size was huge - 300 frames of 800x600 uncompressed TGA's = 412 MB. We only had an internal network, so we couldn't use the internet to send it. Luckily, I had just bought a new laptop with a still-mostly-empty 800 MB hard drive. I used a parallel cable to transfer the files onto the drive (If I didn't, I would have filled the network drive), and when I got to the place that was going to transfer the images to video tape, I used laplink again to put the data on their machine (filling their drive, too!).

      Eventually, I'd like to make an mpeg of it so I can show friends. Any suggestions for a free encoder?

    7. Re:I remember... by jafuser · · Score: 2

      Actually, I'm hoping for the opposite: that our 3D algorithms keep up with the CPU speed increases. Imagine if you could turn the realisim up even higher, to such a degree that you get even more realistic images/animations (with a detailed physics model), at the cost of taking all night or an eight hour workday to render on a 2Ghz machine.

      --
      Please consider making an automatic monthly recurring donation to the EFF
    8. Re:I remember... by Suidae · · Score: 2

      Vivid was my first ray tracer too, I spent a couple weeks writing a front end for it so I could make polygons and lathed patch models and such. Always wished the author (Stephen Coy) would release the source for it, but apparently he was trying to make money selling a book or something in which he taught the reader how to develop a tracer with a subset of Vivids capabilities.

    9. Re:I remember... by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1
      I just tried out a few files on my new Athlon 1.7Ghz.

      Old render files that took 18 hours on a P90, or 16 hours on a 66Mhz PPC, took 30 seconds. I can now skip the rough-out and render anti-aliased stuff at full size in almost real-time (for simple stuff.)

      Wow. The one application for fast RAM and CPU. And here I thought the extra clock cycles were going to waste.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    10. Re:I remember... by Reziac · · Score: 2

      A few degrees off topic, but I once downloaded a nice fractal, appropriately named "Longtime" ... textfile said it took TWO WEEKS to render on a 486. Eeep!!

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    11. Re:I remember... by eggz128 · · Score: 1

      I did my final GCSE art project with POV-Ray, back in ooh, 1996. It took 1 week to render at 800*600 with antialiasing on. This was on a 16MHz 68030 Atari Falcon030, 4Mb ram, no FPU co-processor.

      2 years ago I dug it out, cleaned it up a bit, and ran it on my AMD 46-2 300.

      38 seconds IIRC.

    12. Re:I remember... by bgat · · Score: 1

      Which company was that? I'd like to look them up...

      --
      b.g.
    13. Re:I remember... by ceswiedler · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The corollary to Moore's law goes something like this: CPU work always expands to fill the processor time available.

      I saw this in college animation courses. A project would take so many man-hours (say 400). Given a faster computer, the finished product might look better (more detailed, higher resolution, etc) but the man-hours were the same.

      The effort required to produce Toy Story or Final Fantasy today is about the same effort which will be required to produce a full-length CG movie in 10 years.

      If this law weren't true, we'd all be watching Tron sequels which take ten minutes to produce.

    14. Re:I remember... by damiam · · Score: 1

      If it's MPEG-4 you want (and you should), mencoder, bundled with mplayer, should do nicely.

      --
      It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
    15. Re:I remember... by Alsee · · Score: 3, Interesting

      POV smacking them in the head with Moore's Law?

      I started out on POV with a 486SX-33. The SX series had no floating point math unit. I spent a WEEK rendering a 120 frame animation, prolly 160 by 120 pixels. I immediately mailed away for a top-of-the-line 486-DX66 (does have the math unit) for $660. I was then able to render the same animation in about 12 hours. Now-a-days I could prolly render it at 640x480 while I eat a snack :)

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    16. Re:I remember... by docbrown42 · · Score: 1

      IIRC, one of my images ("The Explorer") took somewhere around 2-3 weeks to render on my old AMD k-6 300mhz machine.

      A few years later, after v 3.1 came out, I modified the code and re-rendered the image. IIRC, it took something like 20 or so hours to render.

      It wasn't Moore's Law that got me....it was just older, slower code!

      (BTW: you can see the latest version of "The Explorer" on my website in my Portfolio)
      -Ed

      docbrown.net
      Graphic Design, Web Design, Role-Playing Games...all the good stuff

      --
      Ed Wedig
      Graphic design services
      docbrown.net
    17. Re:I remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Feh. That's nothing. In my day computers were made of wood and used levers and dials and pressure guage valves and the monitor was made up of an array of gas-lights and a render took so long only our great-grandkids could get to see the finished render.

    18. Re:I remember... by morcheeba · · Score: 2

      It was Defense Systems, Inc, which was bought out by CTA and renamed CTA Space Systems, which was bought out by Orbital (aka OSC).

    19. Re:I remember... by Creepy · · Score: 1

      back in my school days, we calculated that realtime rendering of fairly complex raytraced scenes would be a reality in about 17-18 years (6 of which have passed). We used Moore's law as a basis for the estimates. I don't remember if this estimate was based on software or hardware rendering, but it was based on either a 100 or 150 MHz SGI Indigo.

      I'm just starting to get back into graphics after not using it for several years, so I can't remember all the details, but I vaguely remember at some point adding objects into a raytraced scene actually is faster than adding objects into a polygon scene, but I think the number of polies vs raytraced objects needs to exceed a huge number (17000?). This had something to do with raytracing difficulty increasing linearly (which may have been only because of Z buffering).

      Maybe a slashdot graphics person can refresh my memory.

    20. Re:I remember... by vbweenie · · Score: 1

      I had a similar experience rendering bits of the Mandelbrot set at low resolution, 128 iterations max, using BBC Basic on a BBC micro. That took all night. Then did the same on an Acorn Archimedes, using ARM assembler. That happened in front of your eyes. The same images can now be rendered pretty much instantaneously...

      --
      Experience is a hard school, but fools will learn no other.
    21. Re:I remember... by UranusReallyHertz · · Score: 1

      I remember using POV-Ray on my 100Mhz Pentium. It took about five hours to render the chess scene at 1280*1024(maybe. Its been a while). For some reason I liked the scene of the shiny marbles on the shiny wood floor. I rendered that scene at 10,000*10,000. Took the good part of a week, but it was worth it. The scene of the acylic-looking prisms was really cool too.

      --
      Smoking is an expensive, slow, and unreliable method of suicide.
    22. Re:I remember... by Nexx · · Score: 1

      IIRC, many 486SX's were 486DX's with defective FPU.

    23. Re:I remember... by afidel · · Score: 1

      I had it hit me over the head with how important a floating point coprocessor was. First new pc I got was a 486-SX25 bought when the DX33 was the fastest cpu in the x86 land and the dx2's were still in development and having problems. I tried to compile the railway scene at 800*600 with AA, I started it before leaving for a 4 day weekend in DC, when I got back it was only 3/4 done! Boy do the fp emulation libraries suck =)

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    24. Re:I remember... by millette · · Score: 1
      Hi morcheeba,

      You asked: "Any suggestions for a free encoder?"

      If memory serves correctly, you are looking for DTA. At least that's what I was using back in those days. Make a nice flc to share with everyone :)

    25. Re:I remember... by morcheeba · · Score: 1

      Thanks everyone for the suggestions!

      I found that ppmtompeg already installed with my RedHat distribution. I found my old pictures off of my backup CD (which was taken from my backup SyQuest EZ-Drive 135) - it turns out that there were 500 frames @ 640x480, so it's 15 seconds of FULL SCREEN bliss! I got it all set up, wrote the parameter file, and then.... nothing. I ran it with strace- it parses the parameter file correctly, but then it doesn't even attempt open up my first frame. Thanks again; now I've got lots more options to try!

    26. Re:I remember... by Art+Tatum · · Score: 1

      Let us know if you get it put up on the web somewhere.

    27. Re:I remember... by Bostik · · Score: 2

      Yes, I remember when I found out about Pov-Ray. It was version 3.0 something, fitted on a single floppy disk mounted on the cover of PC-Format. The cover art was Mike Meyer's awesome render of a malicious jack-in-the-box riding a roller coaster.

      At that time I was using a sluggish 386SX-16. I still got hooked to ray-tracing, even if it took ages to get even a low-quality sample render done. Nowadays, with GHz processors, the best renders still take days to finish. Only the amount of detail and polish has risen to obscene heights.

      When it comes to Moore's Law, I remember seeing a nice comment about CPU speeds and Pov-Ray: Personal computers are fast enough when one of them is enough to render a complete movie in real-time, using POV. Considering that animation studios use huge render farms and more optimized renderers, we still have a long way to go :)

      --
      There is no such thing as good luck. There is only misfortune and its occasional absence.
    28. Re:I remember... by 6odm · · Score: 1

      Does anyone else remember POV smacking them in the head with Moore's Law?

      Oh, do I? Hell yeah. Back then I'v got bran new 486dx2-66, and my friend had 386sx-16 (or so), it was faster to transfer .pov to me via 2400 modem, render it, and send .jpg back to my friend, than rendering it with that 386. Talking about distributed computing...

    29. Re:I remember... by morcheeba · · Score: 1

      Hi -- I put it up in this post

  15. Rendering Times... by phraktyl · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I spent many hours mucking about with POV back in the day. Course CPUs are a little faster now, so I guess is those render times don't suck as bad.
    Not necessarily. I've been using POV-Ray for years, and while the machines have gotten faster, the scenes have gotten more complex with regards to reflection and such, and I'm using more anti-aliasing right along with it. Offhand, I'd say my render times are roughly about the same as they were nearly 10 years ago.
    --
    Karma: Marginal (mostly due to the border around the website)
    1. Re:Rendering Times... by zero_offset · · Score: 1
      I've been using POV since the days it was the new upstart on the block and all the CompuServer folks were using DKBTrace. :)

      POV rules.

      It's EASY to bring current machines to a grinding halt with POV-Ray. I was doing some weird experimentation last year... one image featured about forty intersecting glass planes and a bunch of fog and lighting effects. A very low quality rendering at only 640x480 on five networked machines ranging from 500MHz to 1.2GHz (with workloads split according to CPU power) took six days to render. A back-of-the-envelope calculation put a high-quality anti-aliased 1024x768 render at close to a month of round-the-clock processing.

      I figure I'll go back and try this again when my slowest machine is 1.7GHz, I've got a couple of old 2.2GHz boxes laying around, and my main machine is 5GHz or so. Seriously.

      Here's a cool POV wallpaper I submitted to skinz.org which I completed just before I gave up on that big project above...

      http://www.skinz.org/skin.phtml?skinid=1131

      --

      Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005

    2. Re:Rendering Times... by rat7307 · · Score: 1

      I've been using POV since the days it was the new upstart on the block and all the CompuServer folks were using DKBTrace. :)

      hahaha, I remember the POV v DKB discussions on my local BBS....hahah...I remember when I jumped from Vivid to POV....

      Man I got flamed for that

      I've been using POV on and off ever since..I find it thereputic to go back and knock up a scene every now and then

      BTW: I traced on of my older scenes the other day that took 280Hrs on my 286 16Mhz box and it took 21 Sec (Most of that time was to parse the file).

      Kids today are spoilt with their fancy interfaces.. I remember having to write scripts to generate a fields of spheres or watever...sigh...those wew the days.... :-)

      --
      Burma?
    3. Re:Rendering Times... by zero_offset · · Score: 1
      Oh yeah, Vivid, I loved that one, too. Vivid's hazy-sphere thing was lots of fun. Useless but cool looking. :)

      My favorite POV True Life Story (TM) was this image that took my brand new 40MHz 386 about 19 hours to render... then I bought a 387 coproc and render time dropped to 19 minutes. Luckily the rendering was for work purposes, so on the spot I justified the cost of the 387.

      And then there was my big show of "working late" at a different (non-graphics-related) company... In reality I was just hanging around so I could set up everybody's PC to render fragments of my images overnight... I guess these days they'd fine you $400K and send you to jail for 30 days.

      --

      Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005

  16. POV 3.5 by Agent_Eight · · Score: 2, Informative

    POV has got to be the most interesting free software ever put out. If you havn't heard of POV before or just didn't bother to check it out, I'd recommend it. While it easy enough for just about anyone to learn, It's script based nature makes it an ideal artistic outlet for programmers.

    My hat's off to the POVDEV team, it was worth the wait!

    I just hope it manages to get mirrored before the rest of the /. community decides to check it out. The site was slow enough with all those who had been playing around with the beta's .... I did find it amusing that I was downloading the 3.5 package at 3.5kbps.

  17. Re:seems http of povray.org is already slashdotted by semicolon · · Score: 1, Informative

    In the mean time http://povray.co.uk is still up and will quench your appetite for 3.5 news.

  18. Things to try by oliverthered · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Many years ago I put a few enhancments into my onw build of POV

    write out a z buffer with the image using -z at the command line.

    and some changes that allow colour gradients to be used for normal gradients.

    They still don't seem to have that stuff in pov 3.5

    I've also got a reasonable (but 4 years old!) fractal landscape generator I wrote for POV,

    oh and when compiled with djgpp I got a 5% performance boost over the stock dos build.

    those were the days.

    --
    thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    1. Re:Things to try by parkrrrr · · Score: 1

      I think everybody's done the z-buffer thing at one time or another; I'm not sure why we've never made it an official feature. If your other patch was what I think it was (the description isn't really too clear) there's a way to do that in 3.5 using pigment_pattern but it might take some experimenting.

    2. Re:Things to try by stripes · · Score: 2
      write out a z buffer with the image using -z at the command line.

      You can get at the Z buffer, just not from the command line. There is a debugging thing to let you do it, I've used it to try to figure out why some of my scenes didn't come out as I planned. You can also get the alpha chanel rendered directly into PNGs...

      and some changes that allow colour gradients to be used for normal gradients.

      You can do that now, it looks like 3.5 finaly unifyes all the patterns. Plus you can supply your own functions and us uv-maps!

      I've also got a reasonable (but 4 years old!) fractal landscape generator I wrote for POV,

      I have a rolercoaster "construction kit" I did about the same time. Maybe we should combine them, since I just put my coaster over water...(and it took me forever to find out that no_shadows also canceled the fake caustics!)

    3. Re:Things to try by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oh and when compiled with djgpp I got a 5% performance boost over the stock dos build.

      Now that watcom C is really open sourced and released, maybe it could give an even bigger boost.

    4. Re:Things to try by UberLame · · Score: 1

      The z-buffer dump feature would be really usefull for people wanting to use povray in a more production oriented way.

      Also, I used to find myself wishing it would write images using 32bit floating point TIFFs. I didn't see that it was added, but I haven't really had time to thoroughly examine all the new options.

      At one time I used to wish that which object is shown at each pixel could be tagged, but then I hit on using the simplest rendering options and unique colors for each object as a seperate pass to generate that information.

      Ahh, that brings back memories. I haven't used Povray in such a long time. A few years back I switched to BMRT, and now am looking at writing my own and switching again.

      --
      I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me.
  19. Actually.. by citizenc · · Score: 2

    Actually, when I saw "POV" the first thing that came to mind was "point of view".. I also thought "field of vision", as it is only one character off.

    He isn't karma whoring. He's being informative. Which is why his post is moderated as such.

  20. We need a mirror! by davidmccabe · · Score: 0

    We need a mirror!

    1. Re:We need a mirror! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mirror here:

      http://www.yahoo.com

    2. Re:We need a mirror! by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      Povray does support Mirrors. Its been there sience the early version. Handling reflections is an important part of a raytracer. :-)

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re:We need a mirror! by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1
      Povray does support Mirrors. Its been there sience the early version. Handling reflections is an important part of a raytracer. :-)
      But how do I render a slashdotted mirror with Povray?
      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  21. Whack-a-server advanced... by stienman · · Score: 4, Funny

    I get the distinct impression the slashdot editors are playing advanced "Whack-A-Server" lately.

    -Adam

    1. Re:Whack-a-server advanced... by parkrrrr · · Score: 1

      From a post on news.povray.org by the server administrator, Chris Cason:

      From my server status page ...

      Current Time: Wednesday, 10-Jul-2002 13:51:50 EDT
      Restart Time: Wednesday, 10-Jul-2002 13:29:38 EDT
      Parent Server Generation: 1
      Server uptime: 22 minutes 12 seconds
      Total accesses: 45519 - Total Traffic: 1.6 GB
      CPU Usage: u39.2188 s34.5938 cu1.70313 cs1.21094 - 5.76% CPU load
      34.2 requests/sec - 1.2 MB/second - 36.8 kB/request
      198 requests currently being processed, 0 idle servers

      Note the uptime and the total amount transferred in that time ...

    2. Re:Whack-a-server advanced... by ulianov · · Score: 1

      IIRC the newsgroups run off the same server. It's been a little slow lately...

  22. POV by quasi_steller · · Score: 0, Redundant

    I first found out about POV about 2 years ago. I thought (and still think) that it was a great tool. I haven't messed around with it much, but I am going to have to download this newest version and try it out.

    --
    ...interesting if true.
  23. povray is not open source by JoeBuck · · Score: 3, Informative

    PovRay is not open source, but rather has a very complicated licensing scheme. Not only that, care must be taken to be sure even that an image you produce with PovRay is legal to distribute, since there are rather severe licensing restrictions on many of the object description files provided with PovRay you must read these carefully to be sure that what you are doing is legal.

    1. Re:povray is not open source by Agent_Eight · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's not as restricting as you make it out to be. The source is available to anyone. Yes, there are restrictions as to how you build it. For instance, you can't use the POVengine as the core of your own program. POV was designed as an individual entity. Yes, you can write your own extensions that link to the program via API hooks ... The Moray modeling program is an example of this.

      As far as scene files and generated images ... hey your free to do whatever you want with the images. The Scene Description Language (SDL) files can be distributed as well. The language specification itself on the other hand is obviously something they don't want you to copy, but what did you expect.

      Hang around the POV newsgroups, you'll find it to be a very friendly and supportive community. A good number of those on the development team are there to answer questions. I've been hooked on POV since 92 and I'll continue to support them in whatever way possible.

    2. Re:povray is not open source by Deagol · · Score: 1

      Very true. I wish there were a decent open source raytracer (I haven't found any that match up to POV). As kick-ass as POV is, I'd much prefer something more free. Reading the license gives one the feeling that they'll never go that way, though.

    3. Re:povray is not open source by parkrrrr · · Score: 5, Informative
      It's true that POV is not open source. There's a very good reason for that: we can't reach many of the people who contributed the original code under the old license, so we don't have the right to just switch the license. We'll have to rewrite some pretty big chunks of code before we can think about a more open license. That (the rewrite) is slated to happen for the next major release.

      As for the object files, I think that if you read carefully you'll find that the only restrictions are on the use of the files in the samples directory; the POV-Team doesn't own the copyright on those files so the restrictions on those files are an unfortunate necessity. The standard include files and macros, though, are free to be used for any purpose:

      The user is also granted the right to use the scene files, fonts,
      bitmaps, and include files distributed in the INCLUDE and
      SCENES\INCDEMO sub-directories in their own scenes. Such permission
      does not extend to any other files in the SCENES directory or its
      sub-directories. The SCENES files are for your enjoyment and
      education but may not be the basis of any derivative works unless the
      file in question explicitly grants permission to do such.
    4. Re:povray is not open source by JoeBuck · · Score: 2

      Agent_Eight writes: As far as scene files and generated images ... hey your free to do whatever you want with the images.

      This is incorrect: read the license again. You are not permitted to make any derivative works using the files in the SCENES directory, except for those in its INCDEMO subdirectory, or distribute such works, unless the file itself explicitly grants this permission, and most do not. Copying any text out of one of the supplied scenes files for use in a description of your own image would be to make a derivative work.

      If enforced strictly, it would be dangerous to even read the scenes files if you later on plan to use povray to make similar images, though in practice this is unlikely to be enforced.

    5. Re:povray is not open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heya Ron! We haven't seen you in a while and it's nice to see you're still around. I hope things are going well for you, it's been a while since you were in #povray (We've since broken up the channel, I haven't been there in ages myself) Either way it's just nice to see you still around. I'll keep anonymous since it's best that way.

    6. Re:povray is not open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You make it sound like this was highly restrictive. I don't see the problem here. The scenes in that directory are copyrighted by their respective authors, who have simply donated them to the POV-Ray package. Donating them doesn't mean they lose the copyright.
      If you make a derivative work of a copyrighted work, you are just making a plagiate. The usage license simply reminds the user that he should not do this.

      (Anonymous Coward... Well, I'm just too lazy to create an account for one post... :) )

    7. Re:povray is not open source by modus · · Score: 1

      Mozilla was able to hunt down its contributors to change the license. A concerted effort on Povray's part would most likely be successful as well.

    8. Re:povray is not open source by Neon+Spiral+Injector · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The Mozilla project was around 2 or 3 years when they went to change their license. POV-Ray has been around for at least 11 or 12 years now. It may be a bit harder to track down everyone who has writen code for it.

      But as you can see parkrrrr says they are working on a rewrite that will get rid of the old code, so it may be licenced differently in the future.

    9. Re:povray is not open source by Agent_Eight · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ok, I may have misunderstood your original post. Yes, the SCENES directory is mostly protected. Seems fair since it contains files that other people created and allowed to be used to demonstrate what POV was capable of. Things like this get debated all the time on the newgroups between users and the POVDEV team. DERIVITIVE works applies to throwing the whole file into something else and calling it your own. Copying bits and pieces is part of the educational process that they were provided for.

      If enforced strictly, it would be dangerous to even read the scenes files if you later on plan to use povray to make similar images, though in practice this is unlikely to be enforced.

      Your right about the wording of the license,and yes, it's not likely to be enforced. In later versions, the license will become even more liberal (maybe even open source?)
      The license does a pretty good job of explaining why the software isn't open source right now.

      Thier biggest concern is with people charging for free software without letting people know they are paying for something that is free.

    10. Re:povray is not open source by PD · · Score: 2

      That's a good reason to have contributers assign the copyright to you when they contribute the patches. Note that's not assigning the credit, just the copyright. It makes a bunch of things simpler. If one person owns the copyright, then one person can litigate in case someone steals the code and violates the license.

      And, it makes it simple to change the licence too.

    11. Re:povray is not open source by parkrrrr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A little more than ten years, if we're to believe the keychain in my pocket that says "1991-2001". That dates to before the commercial success of the Internet, so many of the contributors were only on Compuserve. Finding some of those people by their names alone would be very difficult, because their names are so common, and we don't have any other reliable contact information now that Compuserve has all but ceased to exist.

    12. Re:povray is not open source by Neon+Spiral+Injector · · Score: 2

      I got my 0.5 realease in 1991, I was trying to strech an extra year.

      I was going to mention the Compuserve connection. I actually joined CServe in 1992 when I got my first modem just for the raytracing forum. I later changed to Delphi because all I really needed was NNTP for comp.graphics.raytracing. I guess I was active there in 1994.

      (Hey, everyone else was remembering the old days. I didn't have it as bad, I started with POV on a 486DX2/66 with 16MB of RAM.)

    13. Re:povray is not open source by starman97 · · Score: 2

      POV ray is based on the DKB (David K Buck) raytracer for the Amiga, Way back in '87 or so, I found it and talked a friend into porting it to DOS. He and another friend ran a BBS called You Can Call Me Ray where the original raytracer and a lot of data files are stored. After a move, the BSS went defunct, but the POVray team picked up the ball and continued work on the project.
      I remember doing traces that took almost a week on my 286-287 system in 1990. NT-REAL (not a trace of reality) was a great image, I used it as a background on my Sun for a long time.

      --
      Starman97@Gmail.com (bring it on spammers)
    14. Re:povray is not open source by Neon+Spiral+Injector · · Score: 2

      Oh yeah, I forgot totally about DKB Trace. I have the source to it somewhere. Ordered it from a guy who wrote a little newsletter about computer generated graphics. I can't remember the name of it, I can just picture the logo two lines of text with factal leaves on the left hand side of the text.

      I also forget about the You Can Call Me Ray BBS. I never did get a chance to call it. But I set up a BBS on my machine (and even put it online a few times) called, Its A Shame About Ray.

      Was NT Real from DKB? I know it was (is?) packed with POV-Ray. I would always print it out as a printer test. One year in high school art I carved a dry wall releif of it (is that a derived work?).

      I'm putting together a new big server for work. Maybe I'll have to spend a few cycles doing some tracing as a burn in.

    15. Re:povray is not open source by starman97 · · Score: 2

      I think Dan Farmer did NT Real.

      Here's a couple of links..
      Early History of POV
      http://www.povray.org/working-docs/id000007.h tml

      An old FAQ with more references
      http://gpp.netfirms.com/3dgraphics/faq _cg_raytraci ng.txt

      --
      Starman97@Gmail.com (bring it on spammers)
    16. Re:povray is not open source by SLi · · Score: 1

      That (the rewrite) is slated to happen for the next major release.

      Makes one wonder why you don't dual license (e.g. the current POV license & GPL) those parts of the code for which you do have the permission to do so (I guess there's still quite a lot of that?). There are certainly a lot of capable people in the OSS community who would be happy to contribute something to replace the missing pieces - probably even several implementations from which you could pick the one you consider most fit for the official distribution, or failing that, still write your own taking the best ideas from the best contributions. This way, it seems to me, POV-Ray could gradually evolve into a fully open sourced product.

      Only one obstacle comes to my mind right now: As far as there remains any POV-licensed code in the code base, the contributions must also comply with that license - effectively, the contributions would also have to be dual-licensed (GPL+POV) until no POV-licensed code remains, at which point the POV license could be entirely dropped from further modifications. I still believe quite a lot of people would be willing to contribute their code under GPL+POV dual license after seeing a nice amount of original POV code released under the GPL in good faith.

    17. Re:povray is not open source by parkrrrr · · Score: 1

      The simple answer is that we don't actually know who contributed what, except for the stuff that was contributed recently. So, for most of the core rendering engine, we have no idea whether we have permission.

      Some other stuff, for example the code for the "crackle" pattern, is actually licensed separately; if you look at the header for that module you'll see that the 3.1x crackle implementation is public domain.

    18. Re:povray is not open source by jafac · · Score: 2

      Oh damn! You Can Call Me Ray brings back memories, DKBTrace 2.11 - heh. Or, who could forget POLYRAY and POVCAD. Absolute crap! (from the PiSquared BBS) - and then there was RaycerX. . . ah the good old days, when the turbo switch on your computer meant you were blazing away at 12 MHz instead of 10.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    19. Re:povray is not open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, everyone else was remembering the old days. I didn't have it as bad, I started with POV on a 486DX2/66 with 16MB of RAM.

      Ah, the luxury! I started on a 386SX-33 with
      4 Mb of RAM.. I still remember getting a 387 maths-coprocessor, (Note kids: that's the FPU on your pentiums nowadays..)
      and it made quite a difference.

    20. Re:POVray is not Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      POVRay predates the open source movement, you yutz.

      The world did not spring out of Richard Stallman's ass in 1989, along with his fascist "free software" license (which really means "free as long as you don't do anything that conflicts with Stallman's politics")

      If you actually bothered to read the information on the site, you'd know that they're rewriting the code to become fully Open Source compliant.

      These guys have been turning out top-quality free (as in beer) software since 1986. What were you doing in 1986, GNU-boy?

  24. And don't forget Fractint! by farrellj · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Fractint and POV-Ray were the first real popular open source graphics tools out there.Fractint brought the Mandelbrot set rendering time from a half hour or so to under a couple of minutes on a 386 system. It is great for providing textures to be mapped on to objects in POV-Ray. You can get it at www.fractint.org...and follow the links to which version you want for what platform.

    ttyl
    Farrell

    --
    CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
    1. Re:And don't forget Fractint! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hmm.. iirc pov had a mandelbrot texture on its own.

    2. Re:And don't forget Fractint! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      iirc pov had a mandelbrot texture on its own.

      It does now, but it didn't when Fractint was at its best. Besides, POV's mandelbrot code is all floating point, where Fractint used integer math. Back then that made a BIG difference.

      and now POV's got the julia object, which creates 3d slices of 4d fractals. (which fractint actually will do too, but nowhere near as well)

  25. NVidia demoed realtime hardware rendering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    a while back.
    Does anyone have the link?

  26. Sucking render times by jayed_99 · · Score: 0, Redundant
    In absolute terms, povray renders a hell of a lot faster than it did 5+ years ago since CPUs have gotten so much faster.

    In relative terms, povray render times still suck. Since CPUs have gotten so much faster in the last 5+ years, my definition of "slow" has changed quite a bit.

  27. I 3 POV-Ray! by cybermace5 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's really difficult to think of another freeware program that has the longevity and success of POV-Ray.

    There are some really powerful tools in this new version. I still find it hard to believe the results possible with POV-Ray...with this and GIMP, you can make great graphics for web pages or excellent digital art. All without spending thousands of dollars on expensive software.

    It's also a great tool for teaching kids programming concepts. While you're not creating a program, the syntax is very C-like. You can create macros, apply properties to objects...a few years back I introduced POV-Ray to one of my younger sisters. With absolutely no previous experience in programming, she was creating very interesting scenes in a few hours. It's easy to get kids involved when there are such immediate, and often beautiful, results. You can't get them excited about writing a "Hello, World" dialog box function.

    Get out there and start rendering!

    --
    ...
  28. Someone's gotta say it... by gTsiros · · Score: 0

    ... /. rendered the site unreachable ;)

    --
    Looking for people to chat about multicopters, coding, music. skype: gtsiros
    1. Re:Someone's gotta say it... by jacobm · · Score: 2

      You are incorrect. No one had to say that. HTH.

      --
      -jacob
  29. Can POV model hair yet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe we could model up some real hair for William Shatner and Sam Donaldson.

    1. Re:Can POV model hair yet? by cybermace5 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You can make hair easily.

      You just use the method that realtime designers use for 3D hardware: transparent shells.

      How to make a hairy sphere in POV-Ray:
      1. Make a sphere.
      2. Make a while loop, which makes more spheres, each one a tiny bit bigger than the last.
      3. These spheres have a pigment map with a spot pattern. Scale the pattern way down, tweak the color thresholds until the spots are small enough. Your spheres are going to be transparent with the spot pigment being the desired hair color.
      4. The spheres are stacked on each other close together, and the spots on the spheres line up and look like hairs.

      The results can really be quite striking. By shifting the surface while scaling it, you can slant the hairs. Throw in gradual amounts of turbulence, and you can introduce irregularities like messy fur. This method works very well for making carpet, too. Have fun!

      --
      ...
    2. Re:Can POV model hair yet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      thanks a lot!
      can you please post a POV scene fragment?
      (my math knowledge sucks)

    3. Re:Can POV model hair yet? by cybermace5 · · Score: 1

      I will when I get back home tonight, where my scene files are stored :-)

      --
      ...
    4. Re:Can POV model hair yet? by Doppleganger · · Score: 1

      I'd be really interested in seeing this method, too. :)

    5. Re:Can POV model hair yet? by Turing+Machine · · Score: 1

      AOL.

      I'm not quite visualizing how this works. Thanks for offering to post a code snippit!

    6. Re:Can POV model hair yet? by cybermace5 · · Score: 1

      Ok, I didn't do it last night, but I put a quick one together just now. Should have a cd with this stuff on it with me at all times :-)

      This doesn't look as good as other stuff, but you can see how it works. You can make it look a lot better by tweaking, for example change to pigment ratios to make the spots smaller as they get to the end.

      It still takes quite a while to do, and you should have a decent/modern computer to try it. If you try doing this and it looks black, increase the max_trace_level.

      stupid slashdot, the code won't go past the "lameness filter" !!!

      --
      ...
    7. Re:Can POV model hair yet? by Doppleganger · · Score: 2

      If you email it to dopple-slash@milledgeville.net, I can put it up on the web for people to be able to get to it...

  30. bah...still in the 3.x release by Sabalon · · Score: 1

    C'mon...it's been in the 3.x release series for as long as I can remember. LW is at 7 now and even Maya is at 4.

    How can this be any good. Perhaps they should release POVRay2002 instead. ;)

    1. Re:bah...still in the 3.x release by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right, it's been in the 3.x series for the past *8 years*, but this release is a major overhaul of the POV language and feature set. They integrated most of what was in Mega-Pov into the current build.
      And if you've ever used MPOV, there were a lot of use contributed patches in it that made it into the current release, like Photon mapping, displacement mapping, being able to render custom functions as surfaces, a trace call to do your own ray/surf calculations...it goes on and on. The macro language is really powerful now, lots of new
      calls and functions to use. POV 3.5 is a *BIG* imporovement over 3.1 and before.

  31. Brings back memories! by RobinH · · Score: 2

    Wow! I remember using MORAY (a modeller) and POV on my 386, probably about 10 years ago. That was some pretty cool stuff, but I can remember rendering times > 10 hours. Oh, how times have changed.

    From a quick search on the internet, it appears that MORAY still exists, but the link I found to their homepage was down. Does anyone around here use MORAY as their modeller?

    --
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
    1. Re:Brings back memories! by stuuf · · Score: 0

      You still will probably get render times > 10 hours now. CPUs get faster, true, but so do monitors and povray itself. A 320x200 image looked big 10 years ago, but now is takes up about 1/20th of your desktop. And the simpler renders in old povray are boring now; using the new primitives/textures/radiosity/etc. will take longer.
      I tried MORAY once, but sort of stopped because it scared me and was to shareware-ish. Sometimes i exported a dxf from blender and converted that to pov. blender also no longer exists. The other problem is that modellers don't always keep up with povray.

      --

      Everyone is born right-handed; only the greatest overcome it

  32. Cluster POVray by nate1138 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Not only is it fast and featured, but it runs on clusters, using mpi-povray. This site has info on doing it with 3.1, does anyone know if 3.5 works w/clusters??

    --
    Where's my lobbyist? Right here.
  33. LDraw by BigJimSlade · · Score: 2

    Check out LDraw. It lets you virtually put together a Lego model with unlimited pieces. The web site has links to tools that allow you to render your models in POV-RAY.

  34. What are you sitting on that for? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Submit your code, damnit! The community can use more good coders!

  35. finally (no longer a beta) by stuuf · · Score: 0

    w00t!
    Now I don't have to download a new 8 meg file every month.

    I'm still deciding whether to use pov 3.5 or megapov 0.7...

    --

    Everyone is born right-handed; only the greatest overcome it

  36. I used a slightly modified PovRay to do a yearbook by tgd · · Score: 2

    Back in high school, I designed and rendered full-color 3-D covers for our senior yearbook -- front and back rendered at 8.5"x11" at (if I recall correctly) 75dpi. The yearbook committee payed a lot of money to get color laser prints of the front and back covers which were then sent to the publisher. The results were great (award-winning, actually), but I remember each of them took almost two weeks to render on a 486/50DX (not DX2).

    I'm sure it would be mere minutes on this 2.52ghz screamer I have here at work, now. Those were the days though -- models built using a ripped-off copy of 3-D Studio, exported as CSV files (if I recall correctly), manipulated using a bunch of Modula-2 utilities I wrote and rendered using surface textures that had to be created via trial and error.

    The world's changed a lot since then. I'm glad to see POVRay is still around!

  37. Another asinine comment... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I spent many hours mucking about with POV back in the day. Course CPUs are a little faster now, so my guess is those render times don't suck as bad.

    Another asinine comment from an Editer [sic] that does nothing to add to the article.

    The only reason you commented, Taco, was to bring attention to yourself. Your hubris and ego are incredible.

    Update: LNUX at $0.84. shouldn't it be delisted?

  38. Re:Let's see your ray traces by aridhol · · Score: 2, Informative

    Go to www.irtc.org, where they have an ongoing raytracing competition. Not all of it is Povray, but alot of it is.

    --
    I can't say that I don't give a fuck. I've just run out of fuck to give.
  39. Oh my.. by PovRayMan · · Score: 1

    *sniff sniff*

    This brings a tear to my eye :'-)

    POV-Ray is still here and the commumity is still wonderful!

    I've been using POV-Ray since 1997, and by no means am I an expert at coding a complex scene. I just LOVE the program since it was my first taste at 3d graphics. Over the years I've seen people make patches and stuff, then those were combined to make MegaPov. I remember it being July 4th or so in 98 or 99 when POV 3.1 came out. Everyone was going crazy about being so excited since it was going from 3.02 -> 3.1 (IIRC, this was a while ago).

    Props to everyone who made 3.5 possible, it's a long awaited update, and very well appreciated.

    By the way, if you haven't noticed my name yet...

  40. povray.co.uk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    chekc out http://www.povray.co.uk

    They have info and reviews of 3.5

    mod me up

  41. haven't j00 caught on yet? by stuuf · · Score: 0

    the more open-source-y a program is, the more slowly the versions increase... except linux... on second thought, never mind... and besides, look at all the skipped major versions (netscape 5, slackware 5,6)

    --

    Everyone is born right-handed; only the greatest overcome it

  42. Wings3D by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wings3d is very easy to use, and FS.

  43. Not cool by AirLace · · Score: 1, Troll

    POV-RAY has an obnoxious licensing scheme that's in many ways worse than anything to come out of Microsoft. Not only is the program itself proprietary, but it even goes so far as to stipulate what you can and can't subsequently do with your own artwork. I'm surprised anyone in the geek community, open source enthusiast or otherwise, would want to be associated with POV-RAY. This is the software that gives 'freeware' a bad name.

    1. Re:Not cool by parkrrrr · · Score: 2

      Post proof or retract.

      Yes, the source code is not free, but nothing in the license even tries to restrict what you do with the artwork. Maybe you're confusing us with BMRT.

    2. Re:Not cool by istvandragosani · · Score: 1
      Actually, BMRT is now available for unrestricted use, even commercial uses, since Exluna is focusing their energy on their commercial product, Entropy.

      --
      Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes
    3. Re:Not cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who the hell do you think would enforce these "rules" ?

      NO ONE!

      Why?

      Because people aren't going to put money into lawyers for this. This isn't Microsoft where they have tons of money to sue people into oblivion. This is just a bunch of moneyless geeks sitting around.

      So don't get all uppity, thanks.

    4. Re:Not cool by ForceOfWill · · Score: 4, Informative
      from the license above linked:
      The creator of a scene file retains all rights to the scene file they created, and any image generated by the Software from them.
      The license does not "stipulate what you can and can't subsequently do with your own artwork." They even explain that they can't change the license until they rewrite the code completely, in the section called "WHY ISN'T POV-RAY OPEN SOURCE?"
      --

      --
      Seeing is believing; You wouldn't have seen it if you didn't believe it.
    5. Re:Not cool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it even goes so far as to stipulate what you can and can't subsequently do with your own artwork

      If you're completely illiterate, I can see how you might think that. Are you?

      Or are you really grousing about not being able to swipe someone else's artwork, file off the serial numbers, and pass it off as your own?

  44. Using POV-Ray on cluster systems by Hassan79 · · Score: 3, Informative
    There are some patches for POV-Ray that enable parallel rendering on multiple machines, unfortunately not yet for the new version:
    I hope that there will be something like this for version 3.5 soon.
    --

    Don't drink and su! antidisestablishmentariazationally
    1. Re:Using POV-Ray on cluster systems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if you're interested in this check out povbench

      in college in 2000 we used mpi-povray and mpich(mpicc) to benchmark our beowulf cluster. we got skyvase.pov from a render time of 2:45 on our master server to 7 seconds with I think 7 athalons of various speeds.

      here is part of our report that deals with this

      For our benchmarking, we decided to use a raytracing suite called POVRay. The source obtained from the official POVRay website is not ready for parallel use. To use POVRay over MPI, a patch must be applied to the original POVRay source. For our installation, we were using POVRay 3.1. The following steps outline our installation:

      1. Unpack the POVRay source for the distribution you have downloaded.
      2. Obtain the MPI-POVRay patch.
      3. Apply the patch: gzip -dc mpi-povray*.patch.gz | patch -p1
      4. cd povray31/source/mpi-unix Monkey with the Makefile to get the right options for your platform and MPI implementation. (MPICH provides mpicc which makes life easier.)
      5. Build a binary: make newxwin

      it's not much but it might help

  45. Re:We need a mirror! JUNK! by davidmccabe · · Score: 1

    WARING: this is junk!

  46. Me too... On a 386 SX!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, the program I used might not have been POV, but there was some rendering program I used and wow!!! what a difference a math-coprocessor could make! If you want slow. Try a 386 or 486 SX. hahaha.

  47. look again by mughi · · Score: 2
    Not only is the program itself proprietary, but it even goes so far as to stipulate what you can and can't subsequently do with your own artwork.

    Again, it has already been pointed out that the restriction on generated artwork is just if you use some of the demo scenes.

  48. Don't forget the first povray pioneer artists by pavos · · Score: 2, Informative

    These days there are a lot of tools available to help you model complex objects/scenes and realistic landscape with povray, but I have always been amazed by the stuff rendered by early pov artists like Dan Farmer, Truman Brown and most notably, Mike Miller. Those guys put out amazing stuff when there were no modellers targeting pov available. Search the web for their work; unfortunately, most of these gems were written for pov 1.x/2.x and I don't know how easy it is to make them compile with the latest version.

  49. Will Wings3d work with POVRAY? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And if so, how do you use it with POVRAY?

    1. Re:Will Wings3d work with POVRAY? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. I use
      3dto3d
      (source distribution of bad cli 3d format converter) to convert between .obj and .pov

  50. Mutiple machines? by Chazmati · · Score: 2

    What about multiple processors? I haven't been able to hook up with www.povray.org yet (./ effect) so no flames about not reading the change log.

    But it always bugged me that POVRAY didn't have better support for multiprocessor systems. Oh sure, you could run two instances of Povray for the top and bottom halves of your image, then splice them together; but why dump that on the end user? Wouldn't it be trivial for the developers to assign each successive pixel to a new process?

    I hope 3.5 will automagically detect and use multiple processors. Then I'll worry about getting multiple machines hooked up. :)

    1. Re:Mutiple machines? by parkrrrr · · Score: 2, Informative

      3.5 still can't do that. Lots of the guts of the code just aren't threadsafe, and won't be until we do the 4.0 rewrite.

  51. License isn't as bad as people make it out to be by FreeUser · · Score: 3, Insightful
    While you are correct in pointing out that POV-RAY isn't free software (and probably doesn't meet the "open source" definition either), the license isn't as draconian or bad as you make it out to be.

    Not only that, but the developers plan on doing a rewrite for version 4, that will allow them to release it under a more permissive license (remember, lots of people contributed to the project under the current license, so chaning it is hard).

    The most restrictive part of the license has to do with using other artists' images, which really isn't too terribly different from any other modellers or renderers out there. While I support and advocate Free Media and a public commons of art for all of us to draw upon in our creativity, this restriction is on the art, not the use of the software.

    From the horses mouth:
    While this explanation doesn't really belong in this document, we are asked it often enough that we have decided to put it here. While the POV-Ray(TM) source code is freely available, it isn't 'open' according to the currently popular definition of the term (meaning that it isn't available to create derivative works other than fully functional versions of POV-Ray). The reasons for this are historical. Primarily, at the time that POV-Ray(TM) was originally developed (starting in about 1990), on Compuserve, it was a different environment than today. Virtually none of the developers had internet access and there wasn't a great awareness of things like the GPL. The team at that time rolled their own license - one that allowed free use of the software but attempted to prevent people taking unfair advantage of it.

    As people contributed code to POV-Ray(TM) over the years - and there have been many instances of this - they contributed it to us on the understanding that it would be covered by the POV-Ray(TM) license, as it stood at the time. Now, in 2001, we find that in many cases we don't know who wrote what part of the code, or that the author is uncontactable. We simply don't have the right to arbitrarily change the terms under which their source code is distributed. Even though it was contributed to us, we feel that we must honor the terms under which it was given. Therefore, POV- Ray(TM) will remain on this existing license until we do a full re-write (which is intended for v4), at which time a new license will be instituted that is far more liberal in terms of reuse.
    [Reference]

    It seems relatively clear to me that they would like to release the next version, once it has been rewritten, under a GPL-type license (probably not a *BSD style license based on their historical experiences with people remarketing their work, which led to this somewhat restrictive license in the first place). Their license predates the GPL, and they seem to imply at several points that the GPL, or a license like it, would be sufficient to protect their concerns and guarantee the freedom of their project, which if you read the history section of the aforequoted document, is their main concern.
    --
    The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
  52. 1994 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I nearly scrotched my PhD thesis letting a 486 render 1024x768 scenes for weeks... My supervisor wondered what I would do with the pictures since he didn't believe any journal cared to print them... sigh... 14 hours renderings ought to be published.

  53. from the remember-the-goold-old-days dept. by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

    I think I'd rather not remember the "goold" old days.

    --
    Do you even lift?

    These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

  54. Today's Games = Yesterday's POV by Control-Z · · Score: 2, Interesting


    I used to have lots of fun with the DOS versions of POV-Ray.

    The graphics of today's games like Unreal Tournament & Quake3 remind me of scenes from the old DOS POV. I'm all into frames per second now, not seconds per frame! :)

    I'd still like to see what a modern raytracer can do though.

  55. Colour maps - gradients by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't remenber exactly, It was years ago, but it rent somthing like this.

    a colour map gradient would be say
    [0:red,0.1:pink,0.5:green , 1:another colour]
    normal gradients used
    [0:0.5,0.1:7,0.5:12, 1:another normal value]

    This was a pain if you wanted to normals to match you pigment/texture because you had to work them out, and you needed a pigment and normal version of the texture.

    The fix was to calculate the normal values of the colour graident and use that for that.

  56. Site Slashdotted almost to death... by markh1967 · · Score: 1

    ...and took ages to load but I clicked the Windows version download link and it responded instantly and started downloading at 72K/second. I bet the link for the Linux version isn't handling the strain so well.

    --
    Input error. Replace user and press any key to continue.
  57. Looks like the Povray's been Slashdotted... by zulux · · Score: 5, Funny

    I copied the screen shots:

    1st Screenshot:

    Blue Sky

    Reflective-Ball

    Ground Made of Grid Lines

    2nd Screenshot:

    Star Feild
    Ball
    Ball
    Reflective-Ball

    Ball

    Ground made of Grid-Lines

    3rd Screenshot:

    Fog

    Top side of Cube
    Fog
    Left Side of Cube
    Right Side of Cube
    Fog
    Water with waves in it

    LamnessFilter: fka;jdk;dskdsjnxz.,nweqhkljasdnm,Z.fdhjfahvcmv,znc xvhjlkafhdscnxz.mcn,mvxhfsjalkfhkvanc,.zn
    dfsafds afdsfdsafjdsa;lfkdsafkd;lkdsaj
    fsdak;jdsfkljdsa;l fjds;lfsa;lksajfk4eu8cxvzjk

    --

    Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.

  58. site down/overloaded by stuuf · · Score: 0

    by the way.... does anyone mirror the povray www site?
    wait--i just got into povray.org. first reaction: AAAAAGGGGGHHHHH!!!!! why does everyone hate/stop using frames now? OH NOESS!

    --

    Everyone is born right-handed; only the greatest overcome it

  59. Re:We need a mirror! JUNK! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure, but what indeed a spectacular piece of junk!!!

  60. Submit your code by oliverthered · · Score: 1

    Here's a starter for 10
    I can only do so many things at once and manage to eat.

    --
    thank God the internet isn't a human right.
  61. Ah, fond memories! by jawtheshark · · Score: 1

    I did my first rendering on a 80286 at 10Mhz. Of course it was all simple scenes (which I found damn impressing on my 320x200@8bit graphics card). I just wrote the scenes, rendered at very very small resolution and when it "looked" good, I ran it overnight. The raytracer I used was a shareware program called "Vivid".
    Haven't done any rendering in ages, I'm just not artistical. :-(

    --
    Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
  62. Alright Already by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 1
    After I finish up some work with a few volunteer organizations I'll finally get started on the Tcl/Tk based CAD package that shits out POV files that's been rolling around in the back of my head for 3 years now.

    ETA: 2010

    --
    "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
    --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    1. Re:Alright Already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're going to write a huge steaming pile of shit that noone but you will ever use?

  63. TMPGEnc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stupid me, I doon't have it set up to log in at work. Oh well.

    http://www.TMPGEnc.com

    Awesome encoder for windows and free.

    Currently the TOP of 98% of software encoders in terms of quality.

  64. POV-Ray goes beyond standard rendering too by Yes · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I have found POV-Ray to be a pretty useful tool. Most people probably think about rendering some nice scenes when POV-Ray is mentioned. Well, it can be used on other stuff too.

    I have rendered user interface components for games with POV-Ray. Basically I have built a .inc files which consist of the interface primitives (some macro "functions"). The .pov files contain the real user interface components. Using a config.inc and some scripts you can parametrize the whole system. You can change textures, sizes, lighting and so forth on by editing the config.inc and render the components with one shell script. Also, it is easy to produce nice alpha masks (to get rig of the background) to the components by fiddling with textures and lighting. It doesn't take too many lines of code to combine the masks and the images (in PNG format). You know, a rendering pipeline, a programmer compatible way doing graphics, beats Photoshop anytime :)

    POV-Ray can also be used as a plain texture generator.

    I wish that POV-Ray had a more powerful macro language. Or, awwwww, maybe even a proper scripting language. At the moment you have to use all sorts of external magic to generate POV-Ray files to get what you want.

  65. Best software project ever by Jon+Peterson · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I saw someone else say the same thing, but can't hunt back to their post to reply. Oh Well.

    Anyway, I first used POV in 1993, and it got me hooked on the whole computer thing. I'd never have learned Perl except to auto-generate my POV scripts. I'd never have learned Unix except so I could run POV on the university RS6000's instead of the 386DX's. Gee, I owe my career to POV!

    Comp.graphics.raytracing, and later comp.graphics.rendering.raytracing were the two best newgroups I ever read, and epitomised all that was (note the past tense!) good about usenet. I wrote a tutorial for POV 2.0 when it came out, and helped set up a web competition still going today (http://www.irtc.org/).

    The people were friendly and helpful, flame wars were almost unheared of and religious technology wars were rare. People joined the community, stayed in the community, and helped others enter the community.

    People wrote a plethora of supporting utilities, and it really was an application that brought an otherwise inaccessible area of computing within reach of anyone.

    Today, CGI is so common in film and TV that POV-Ray's images have little wow factor. Low-end commercial tools like strata 3D are much more affordable and accessible.

    Nonetheless, raytracing still produces images with a unique feel, and I'm sure people still get enormous pleasure (and excellent spatial reasoning practice!!) from using POV-Ray. Unless they've changed it radically, the Scene Description Language used by POV was one of the most elegant and well designed declaritive languages I've ever come across in computing. XML and every configuration file I've seen is an ugly hack in comparison. And don't even mention VRML ;-)

    Go go POV team!!!!

    --
    ----- .sig: file not found
    1. Re:Best software project ever by Pseudonym · · Score: 2

      Disclaimer: I hear what you're saying. Raytracing with POV-Ray is a fun passtime. However...

      Nonetheless, raytracing still produces images with a unique feel [...]

      Only in bad raytracers. Good rendered images (raytraced or otherwise) don't look like raytraced images unless the user specifically wants them to.

      No arguing over taste, of course, but I find raytraced images that look raytraced distracting as hell.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
  66. visualize data by Blue+1ce · · Score: 1

    Has anybody ever used POV-Ray as an output device in a software project?

    I mean, I always thought that it would be a great way to visualize data.

    Just crunch your numbers, feed them into POV-Ray via a script, display the image.

    I'm curious...

    1. Re:visualize data by zero_offset · · Score: 1

      I did on a stock market charting application I worked on many years ago, but it was just something I was playing with. Back then POV ran so slowly it really wasn't worth it for my needs. You'd probably have to have some very complex visualization requirements before the processing overhead would be worth it. Maybe it's heightfield support would be cool to use, I suppose.

      --

      Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005

    2. Re:visualize data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used POV (in 3 hours, with a 25 line C program to massage the data) to produce images demonstrating the use of various algorithms to simulate error in a phased-array radar beam. I just plotted MANY tiny spheres that would then form a 3D shape (cloud). When I presented it to people, I was amazed at how effectively it conveyed the concepts through the use of imagery. It generated a fair amount of feedback on what I was doing, more so than words ever could !!!

  67. news.povray.org by frovingslosh · · Score: 4, Informative

    There's a dedicated news server at news.povray.org (files there do not post to Usenet and your regular news server). Point your favorite news reading application there and download the groups, there are groups for exactly this, posting still renderings, animations, and plenty of technical discussion groups. I've seen some fantastic ray tracings posted here.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
  68. no need to remember long rendering times by frovingslosh · · Score: 2

    Still insanely easy to do if you make enough transparent objects and raise the number of times a ray can split as it passes through such items (try setting max_trace_level to 100 from it's very low "normal" value.) I had a scene of different colored glass slabs that just didn't look right with the default value. Looks great with max_trace_level at 100, but rendering about 100 small frames for animation took a month on a Pentium 166. It still bogs down my AMD, a large still of the same model can take days.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
  69. Mirror Here by DarkMan · · Score: 1


    http://wired.st-and.ac.uk/~spurdie/

    In the UK.

  70. Ill say blender by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    NAN filed for bankrupcy and doesnt look like its coming back.

    Regardless of how wonderful Blender was.. Not enough of us was willing to pay to keep it alive.

    Oh, and there were export scripts..

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:Ill say blender by MikeV · · Score: 1

      NaN Holding and the Blender creator have been going through some interesting negotiations. NH looks amiable to reviving Blender in a different incarnation. Needless to say, Blender *is* coming back, and in an OSS approved license:

      http://www.blender3d.com/

      Yay - I've been using Blender for a while and the one big problem was the closed source nature of it - now we're gonna have an open source 3D environment.

      Participate in it and help fund it, guys. Blender's just too cool to let it die!

  71. Mirror by prentis · · Score: 1

    well there's a list of ftp mirrors heredont know about the www site though.

  72. PEZ: Povray embedded Zcripting language by genomancer · · Score: 1

    Ok, so it's a horrible joke, but when I thought Mel(Maya embedded scripting) -> Pel, it just wasn't as cute ;)

    G

  73. Mac version both cool and lame by Slur · · Score: 2

    The Mac version is a Carbon application, so it doesn't have the characteristic speedy feel of a true Unix application, but hey it's still POV so I can't really disparage it. Hopefully the developers will see fit to make a Cocoa version of the program for a future release.

    --
    -- thinkyhead software and media
    1. Re:Mac version both cool and lame by jafac · · Score: 2

      Why not just port the BSD version and run from the CLI like the good old days?

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
  74. Still slow with faster CPU... here's why... by tcc · · Score: 2

    Back when I was on my amiga, rendering (raytracing) let's say "a typical nice image" back then would require me ~30min-1h per frame without trying to optimize the scene and all.

    Today you get 200X faster processors, yes, but at the same time, you get caustics, radiosity, Subsurface Scattering, Volumetrics and loads of plugins/shaders that are sometimes *very* Cpu intensive. These things are an evolution of the rendering pipeline that arrived because of a lot of R&D but also because more power is available to plug these new features in (rendering hair 10 years ago was a simple polygon with hair texture on it, or polygon strands that looked terrible :) ).

    So while the CPUs right now are going faster and faster, the evolution of the quality and complexity of the images also went up at the same time, thus cancelling the speed increase for mid to high-end work.

    Production houses still require a renderfarm, testing some specific scenes still requires to reduce the resolution to something very small or to sample limited region in the camera viewport.

    Of course if you don't want to do any raytracing and do simple model and lighting and make it look quake-like, you won't need a renderfarm, for a flying logo with nothing fancy, it's hell of a lot faster, but for most 3D artists, they still have a good excuse to go to the coffee machine :).

    I don't know about POVRay, I've always been a lightwave user, but if they've catched up with the new rendering algorythms for the above features I mentionned, they are going to tax the cpu as much as raytracing taxed machines in the mid 80s.

    --
    --- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
  75. International mirrors by parkrrrr · · Score: 2, Informative

    Sorry about the extra spaces in these URLs...

    http://www.mirror.ac.uk/sites/ftp.povray.org/pub /p ovray/Official/
    ftp://sunsite.cnlab-switch.ch/mir ror/povray/povray /Official/
    ftp://sunsite.wits.ac.za/pub/mirrors/f tp.povray.or g/povray/Official/
    ftp://gd.tuwien.ac.at/graphics /raytracing/povray/O fficial/
    ftp://ftp.etsimo.uniovi.es/pub/raytrace/ povray/Off icial/
    ftp://kermit.stud.fh-heilbronn.de/mirrors/ povray/O fficial/
    ftp://ring.asahi-net.or.jp/pub/misc/povr ay/Officia l/

  76. Re:I used a slightly modified PovRay to do a yearb by lucifuge31337 · · Score: 1

    The yearbook committee payed a lot of money

    You graduated high school without learning how to spell "paid"?

    Yes, it's a troll.

    --
    Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
  77. this keeps biting people in the ass by sydlexic · · Score: 1

    Why not add a standard clause to all licenses that says if you can't be located by email (provided at the time of contribution) at any time within one month (or two or three), we have the right to change your license to anything else we damn well please (as long as it's less restrictive).

    1. Re:this keeps biting people in the ass by dvdeug · · Score: 2

      Why not add a standard clause to all licenses that says if you can't be located by email [...], we have the right to change your license to anything else we damn well please

      If I wanted to do that, why didn't I just release it to the public domain to begin with? That has so many loopholes, it's not even funny.

      (as long as it's less restrictive)

      This is meaningless. If you can put it under a BSD license, you can then make it as proprietary as you want.

  78. back from being slashdotted by mughi · · Score: 2
    When I clicked on the pov-ray link there was only one comment and it was already slashdotted...

    It got hammered and was down briefly. But the maintainer redid the server to use more of the memory on the box and got it back up pretty quickly. I saw it, and that it was down. Within half-an-hour of that it was back.(He mentioned it was unstable with all the RAM enabled, but unstable is better than just plain not there)

  79. MOD YOU DOWN, ASSCLOWN! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everybody knows that the CLiT are a bunch of cocksmokers.

  80. GIFs! by Grendel+Drago · · Score: 1

    He appears to have a bunch of GIFs. Should he be using open-source PNGs? For shame, Taco!

    --grendel drago

    --
    Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
  81. Re:I used a slightly modified PovRay to do a yearb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Those were the days though -- models built using a ripped-off copy of 3-D Studio, exported as CSV files (if I recall correctly), manipulated using a bunch of Modula-2 utilities I wrote and rendered using surface textures that had to be created via trial and error.

    Hasn't changed that much since those days - there's still plenty of fuckwits like yourself around.

  82. Quality always amazing by pod · · Score: 1

    Someone look at this and tell me how you can tell it's not a picture...

    --
    "Hot lesbian witches! It's fucking genius!"
    1. Re:Quality always amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of the objects, like the signs and the newspaper box, look too clean and uniform, and their colors are too saturated.

      The scene (if it is one scene, I'm REALLY impressed) is so complex, that putting the extra detail into those objects would probably blow the memory budget, and the artist's patience.

      The real giveaway is that the traffic is never that light during the day. :-)

    2. Re:Quality always amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most things look great, but the cars look like they were "painted" in. They don't look ray-traced, though...

    3. Re:Quality always amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The cars are raytraced.
      The page below describes the making of the picture.
      http://www.oyonale.com/ressources/englis h/mkofwetb ird1.htm

    4. Re:Quality always amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The scene took 2 months to create. It was not so memory hungry (ran on a P350 with 128 Mb or so) because Pov-ray is very good at managing duplicated meshes.
      For a much more demanding pov-ray scene from the same author (also involving cars) see :
      http://www.xfrogdownloads.com/greenWeb2/Templat es/ gallery/image/traffic_morning.jpg

  83. Fuck you, AssTaco by joshua404 · · Score: 1

    "I spent many hours mucking about with POV back in the day. Course CPUs are a little faster now, so my guess is those render times don't suck as bad." Who the fuck CARES, you egomaniacal fucking dork?

  84. POV-Ray is a toy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pros use POV-Ray? *cough*

    Here's a nickel, kid. Go get yourself a real open source renderer.

  85. Re:Lego library [sorry about links] by ulianov · · Score: 1

    ('Scuse the n00b-ness - how to cancel a post on slashdot?) Here are the links properly formatted - I'm used to newsgroups where I just post a URL and the reader makes it a link... oh, and ./ seems to reformat the line returns in posts. Black Seas Barracuda Phalanx Auto Chassis Ice Planet

  86. I wrote a POV-Ray data generator. by Partisan · · Score: 1

    Way back before I made the jump to Linux I wrote a VB application that will generate a Sierpinski curve. It plots the curve on the screen in any colour you choose. Plus it outputs POV-Ray source code so you can render the curve in glorious 3D! The curve is composed of cylinders and spheres.
    I just tried to install it under WINE and was not successful, but I did not try very hard.
    I keep promising myself I'm going to write a version of this for Linux someday...
    http://web2.airmail.net/jfox/sierpcurv e.htm to see it.
    Don't be harsh about the website, I was just a kid!

  87. Re:Lego library [sorry about links] by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Read the goddamned faq. No, you can't delete posts. Once you post, your ass belongs to Hemos.

  88. Re:Let's see your ray traces by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since Slashdot is full of no talent losers, why do you expect anything?

  89. povray IRC by mughi · · Score: 2

    And there's a channel #povray on EFnet. It's a little slow nowadays, but is picking up a little.

  90. AT LAST! by Pope+Raymond+Lama · · Score: 1

    Did I wait for that. As of late, they had not made available
    a copy of the beta 3.5 for Linux. And the old Betas had
    all expired. Win & Mac users had update beta's thought.
    I started a couple scenes in 3.5 which I just had to freeze
    while I waited for this one.

    --
    -><- no .sig is good sig.
  91. POVray is not Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    POVray is not Open Source because it fails to meet at least two
    criteria of the Open Source
    Definition.

    The POVray license contains:

    These archives must not be re-archived using a different method
    without the explicit permission of the POV-Team. You may rename
    the archives only to

    which collides with 3 of the OSD:

    3. Derived Works

    The license must allow modifications and derived works, and
    must allow them to be distributed under the same terms as the
    license of the original software.

    Further on, the POVray license also contains

    You must distribute a FULL PACKAGE of files as described in the
    next section.

    [..]

    [Definition Full Package:]

    1) End user executable archives containing an executable
    program,
    documentation, and sample scenes but no source.

    - or -

    2) Programmer archives containing full source code but no
    executable.
    Also you must include an archive containing documentation,
    and
    sample scenes. On some platforms, the documentation and
    sample
    scenes are archived separately from the source. Source alone
    is not sufficient. You must have docs and scenes.

    This collides with 1 of the OSD:

    1. Free Redistribution

    The license shall not restrict any party from selling or giving
    away the software as a component of an aggregate software
    distribution containing programs from several different
    sources. The license shall not require a royalty or other fee
    for such sale.

  92. Re:Render Engine is nice, but modelers? - MORAY by xipho · · Score: 1



    Moray rocks, pretty cheap too.

    --

    only infrmatn esentil to understandn mst b tranmitd
  93. Video is done!! by morcheeba · · Score: 2

    Thanks everyone...

    Here's the video (2.8 MB). It should take about 10 more minutes to ftp up. There is no soundtrack, so I'll give the narration here:

    The satellite is called GEMstar and was designed to provide SMS-like messaging all over the world. It was built circa 1994-5 and was lost when the rocket blew up. That didn't stop me from producing the video of what it would have looked like!

    The video shows a couple of stages that occur when the satellite is released from the rocket. First, it initially tumbles. Then the solar panels deploy (like everything else, they had to be squeezed in to fit in the nosecone of the rocket). The attitude control system (ACS) turns on and stabalizes the spin of the satellite so that it faces towards the earth. This is done with momentum wheels (heavy wheels inside the satellite) and torq coils (coils that act against the earth's magnetic field). Next, the main helicial antenna is deployed, and it's ready for service!

    A few notes on the parts of the satellite. The blue panels are solar cells. The gold ring at the bottom is the seperation ring that attaches the whole thing to the rocket. The 4 white squares on top are GPS antennas connected to a special receiver that can measure the phase difference between the antennas and therefore figure out (not only x,y,z and time) its pitch, roll, and yaw. The X-shaped thing on the top of the satellite is a gravity gradient boom. Deployment of this probably should have been in the video, but oh well. It pops out maybe 10 feet and, due to some simple physics I don't understand, will help orient the satellite so that it faces the earth. (In reality, the satellite isn't staying still, it has to constantly re-aim to keep pointing at the earth). On the side panel, the little circle is a window for the earth sensor. There is another one on the other side, and they help orient the satellite.

    Antennas- The 4 blade antennas are for command & control. These form a broad pattern and are useful to talk to the satelite when the main antennas aren't pointed correctly (like when there is a problem). Being a broader pattern, they require more power.

    The boom antenna has two elements - a larger 150 Mhz antenna to receive transmissions from ground users (who transmit on less licensed taxicab-like frequencies), and a smaller ~400 MHz transmit antenna at the tip. This antenna was the hardest part of the animation because there were no 'spiral' primitives in POVray. I ended up writing a little program in C to generate a bunch of triangle strips, and then used 4 copies of this (at 90, 180, and 270 degrees). The deployment is totally bogus - I just scaled the structure, when in reality the width of the strips don't change.

    True story: our competitor at the time was Orbital with their series of ORBcomm satellites. They used a similar antenna structure, but theirs folded up sideways, like a staw that has been rolled up. Our antenna was made of metal, plastic, and fiberglass - theirs was made of copper tape, kapton (a space-rated scotch tape), and bamboo. I never thought that anyone would fly a wooden satellite!

    1. Re:Video is done!! by morcheeba · · Score: 1

      finally got it uploaded; sorry for the delay