Slashdot Mirror
New Problem Could Ground Space Shuttle Fleet
Ender writes "As if the NASA folks at KSC did not have enough problems to deal with a the moment, (see previous
/. article on the engine cracks and the following
CNN article on the repairs) a NEW problem has sufaced in the Apollo Era transporter which vehiculates the Shuttles to the launch pads (crawler). They found many cracked bearings in the cylinders that lift the shuttle and its launch platform on the transporter. After this discovery they took a look at the other crawler and it too had quite numerous cracked bearings. No word from NASA yet but these findings may further delay the next
Space Shuttle launch which is currently scheduled for NET (no earlier than) Sept 28th and by the same token slow down the assembly of the ISS.
Complete articles at SpaceFlightNow and
United Press International."
NET, ISS [sic], delays, problems?
What I don't understand is how they **JUST** Found these cracks? I mean obviously they all did'nt just appear at once. So do they have any idea how long they have been forming? How many shuttle roll-outs have been done with cracks already? Probably a lot i assume.. It would seem that they could do 1 more roll-out and then replace(get made) all the bearings they need..
...but perhaps NASA needs help from the Indians?
It is interesting to trace NASAs priorities in terms of space travel. Can anyone explain the benefit of the ISS and how it fits into the 'master scheme' of space exploration?
My little sad piece of the internet: www.mtndewd
Does this sentence mean what it says, taken from this:
" The crawler-transporters are impressive machines, built on site in the mid 1960s to move Saturn 5 moon rockets from the VAB to the launch pad.", I quess it does, because there's another sentence saying "Apollo-era".
If yes, are you amazed that it has cracked bearings if it has been sitting in a garage for 40 years? Could it be time ermm.. upgrade?:)
From the article: NASA and contractor engineers are troubleshooting cracked bearings ... it is not yet known what, if anything, must be done to resolve the issue.
My guess, and I should flag here that IANARS, is they'll have to replace those bearings...
Sigh.
I predict the feedback will be filled with the following:
1. Whining to the effect of 'they JUST found these? All the bearings went bad at once?'
2. Whining to the effect of 'They're still using 40+ year old crawlers? How dumb!'
3. Whining to the effect of 'NASA is so stupid, they can't even drive 5 miles, much less fly a million in a shuttle'
4. A few token 'We should be at moon/mars/jupiter by now, NASA has just fallen by the wayside and is a relic of lost dreams' whines
5. A few people will get a kick out of saying 'Maybe we should pay the Russians to help us with our space technology?' and 'Can't they fix this by having Natalie P. put grits on the bearings?'
6. Finally, one or two levelheaded people will say 'This stuff happens, and I'm glad they're catching it now instead of when a shuttle falls off a crawler'.
Of course, #6 will be basically ignored, and instead a message saying 'If these bearings failed, it would be bad.' will be marked +5 Insightful, +5 Interesting, and +5 Informative, the three I's of insipid posts that bring to mind the sound of a million people saying 'Well, duh....'
Well it's not like they can just call the AAA and pop a wheel off to have a look. That things is kind of big. We had a D8 bulldozer, and never opened some of the heavier stuff (just getting the winch off was a task of herculean proportions). We'd open smaller tractor after about 15 years to put new rings and pistons in, plenty of time for lots of stuff to go wrong.
;o)
Maybe they got pulled up by the local police who put a defect notice on the windscreen? Not like the local sheriff could get them for speeding.
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
I really hope that's a joke.
Buckets,
pompomtom
"There's an exception to every rule. Except for some rules"
If the shuttles remain grounded beyond September, a Russia spacecraft could have to resupply and change the space station crew.
..I'll tell you whu....whuut..your fwiggin...what your fwiggin problem--hic--is mister!...Don't you..ermm......judge---hic--me. You're not my real father......
In light of this discovery, maybe NASA should delay the pointless space station a little while and check all its ancient equipment for wear and tear.... Complain all you want about delays in ISS construction, but how many replacement crawlers (and replacement shuttles) could the government buy for what it spent on the ISS project so far? How many human lives should NASA sacrifice to get the space station built? Time isn't that crucial here, considering that the thing will already be years late because of Russia's inability to meet a deadline.
Since China and India want a space program so badly, we should sell them all our aging space crap. (I can see the yardsale now... ) Then use the money raised from that to buy one decent working spacecraft that won't have to be renovated every time NASA uses it.
== Paul Rickard, Editor of The Microsoft Boycott Campaign ====
I agree, it makes you wonder how often they check their equipment, this kind of thing takes time. We have a multi-billion dollar piece of equipment and we apparently don't have the money to keep it in top shape. Its worse if they regularly inspect it and just missed this problem repeatedly...
Thus my problem: I can't decide which politician to believe. I know many of you will say neither, which is generally the right answer, but this is a special case. I've heard that NASA is underfunded from some people and that it's recieving billions of dollars a year from others, which would SEEM to be enough. If they ARE getting enough money, then I'm glad my money is being wasted AND I'm being lied to, if they aren't getting enough money, I'm glad they decided to cut corners by ignoring safety... *sigh* Government...
AND WHAT ARE THEY DOING SPENDING $600 ON A HAMMER???
Speaking of which, did anyone else really like the S/N ratio and volume of stories during that Slashdot Blackout thing? More stories, fewer coments would be fine by me. (Assuming I have any say at all, which I don't. I'm not actually paying for Slashdot or anything. My subsidy is purely limited to clicking banner ads and buying the occasional item from Thinkgeek.)
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
And I was hoping that it was a problem with the shuttle itself. The shuttle is entirely too expensive (half a billion dollars per launch?!?!) for what we get, and it really needs to die so that we can at least get another opportunity to replace it with something more cost effective. Because as long as they can continue to operate the shuttle, they will, no matter the cost -- because it's politically easier.
Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
This begs the question: Why is there a 5 degree incline? Get out the pick and shovel and level it off! ;-)
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one less travelled by. (Robert Frost, 1916)
I'm too tired (and I gotta pee) to look up numbers, but the space shuttle fleet costs an arm and a leg to maintain. It was designed as the do-anything vehicle and ended up as the do-nothing-well vehicle. Sure it works but like masturbation there are better ways to get it done. At the current price/mass ratio, large space projects like ISS are uneconomical. Before building a space station, NASA should build a better launch facility either here or on the moon. Seeing as it's immeasurably easier and cheaper to build on Earth, I'd recommend starting with a big linear accelerator (think rail gun) here. If memory serves, the price/mass ratio is somewhere between 10 and 1000 times less than using the Shuttle fleet. It shouldn't take too long to recoup costs at that price, especially when one considers that lower price to orbit will mean lots more traffic. The flip side is that much more debris in the popular belts but the cost to send up a garbage collector would be that much less too.
Where's someone with 10 years and a hundred billion dollars to spend when you need 'em? By my count, 5 people could do it. Hey Bill, want to be a big player in an emerging market? Get your ass moving on a few square miles of solar cells and a linear accelerator.
High-speed Road Trip (18.000KPH)
"Shock! Horror! Ginger isn't Segway" -Silicon.com
1 82 938&6004REQEVENT=&REQINT1=
0 57, for
r -chat.com
On top of Bob Metcalfe's (founder of 3com, inventor of ethernet networking
technology)
comments about "IT" not being Segway... now comes:
Dean Kamen's Segway HT is not the long awaited Ginger/IT invention by
deduction:
http://www.silicon.com/public/door?REQUNIQ=1029
55054&REQSTR1=newsnow
And here are some people commenting on the scoop:
http://www.shacknews.com/ja.zz?id=5282012
http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?id=5975
Also see http://www.ginger-chat.com/#newsitem1029121561,92
additional info on how this was discovered.
Regards,
Spliff
(Webmaster)
http://www.ginge
NASA has to be one of the few agencies to take pictures of most of their activities. They added Pictures of the cracked bearings today to the KSC Media Archive, and they are some ugly cracks.
Links can be found here:
KSC-02PD-1166
KSC-02PD-1167
KSC-02PD-1168
KSC-02PD-1169
KSC-02PD-1170
KSC-02PD-1171
--Kumba
I saw this last week or so (I don't remember where exactly), but I did a search and found the story on Space.com. Here's what it said:
CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) -- Did a 27-year-old with perfect vision and admitted pickiness help prevent disaster on the space shuttle?
NASA may never know, but the manager of the shuttle program said inspections will be more thorough from now on.
The first of 11 tiny hairline cracks that grounded the entire shuttle fleet was spotted by David Strait, a sometime surfer with 20/20 vision who works for United Space Alliance, one of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's contractors.
Within the space agency there's talk of an award for the systems inspector, who caught the biggest potential hazard at the launch site since an engineer spied a 4-inch (10-centimeter) pin wedged against Discovery's fuel tank during a countdown in 2000.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
Vehiculates? Sweet Jesus!, one can only assume that English is not their first language.
Rumor has it the Bush administration is looking at the possibility of folding NASA and Amtrak into the new Department of Homeland Security. This is part of Mr. Bush's greater effort to make the federal government more like a corporation by consolidating all government organizations that are crippled by cracks in the system into one, easily-ignorable department.
--sigh--
When is NASA going to get out of the way of progress and let the people who want to go, go?
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
...vehiculates the Shuttles to the launch pads...
You means 'moves' or perhaps 'transports'?
You yanks...
# init 5
Connection closed.
Oh...
Driving this baby into the local Halfords (Sears ?for our US readers) and asking them to change the bearings!
----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
What shmoe wouldn't put a bid in for that? =oP
People will pass up steak once a week, for crap every day.
wear I wouldn't have thought a problem.. if ceramic wasn't good enough, then a nice layer of artificial diamond ought to do the trick. They only have to safely last one flight (with a large safety margin of course).
Except they said cracked, not worn, so I'm assuming something's putting way too much pressure on them...
Opportunity knocks. Karma hunts you down.
What, too cool to use the word 'move'?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Boring story, no response, who cares, no mention in newspapers, and the fact that the floating tin can currently up there will not get any larger for a few months does not stir the soul.
Consider the alternative universe I just visited, where a similar slashdot story was just posted but with the final phrase replaced by...
Oh, and by "NASA twerps" I don't mean everyone at NASA, the vast majority of whom are fine, hardworking geniuses. I just mean the people at the top who made the bizarre space station decision. I mean, the whole purpose of the Space Shuttle (check your history books, friends) was to resupply Skylab, which was an excellent space station. Roomy, simple, and one-piece, it was launched by a Saturn V and took the place of what would, on a moon shot, have been the third stage fuel tank. Then the Space Shuttle turned out to be more complicated to build than first thought, so it didn't make it up in time to rescue the station.
So, what were the thought processes jumping around the head of the collective imbecile which is the NASA beuracracy? "Shuttle built. Shuttle must go to station. Station dead... Build new station! Brilliant! Champagne and caviar all round."
I doubt that there was much talk about whether we need a space station or not. It just seemed obvious. Arthur C put one in orbit in 2001, every science fiction book has a couple of them floating around. But
"Um. It's for studying the microgravity environment! We can grow crystals. We can observe the effects on the human body." Fair enough, But now the station budget has been cut back to the extent that the station is just good enough to keep people alive inside, as long as those people are 90% dedicated to keeping the station running to keep themselves alive. There is little time left to do the science that is supposedly the reason it's up there.
Now I'm all depressed. Screw you guys, I'm going back to the alternative universe, and post a message on the alternative slashdot about our mad neighbors in the universe next door.
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more, Or close the wall up with our American dead!
what the hell sort of word is "vehiculates"???
It amuses me that NASA has to invent fancy new words when there's perfectly good word that will do the job - "TRANSPORTS".
I guess it makes them sound important or something.
vehiculates - I bet that one isn't in the OED!
And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbour Isaiah 3:5
Imagine something along the lines of a hundred-ton bulldozer with a rocket sitting on top of it.
After getting to walk around under one aftera visit a few years ago to KSC I can attest to the fact that they're massive vehicles. The treads alone tower over a grown man's head. Imagine something like Sealand on tracks (well, a little smaller). The roadbed consists of Alabama river rock several feet deep that supposedly causes less friction for the treads and gets crushed into dust as the crawler runs over it. It was pretty awkward to walk on the rocks since they're very loosely packed. All-in-all the crawler is quite a site to see up close and an amazing engineering marvel.
Anyway, it looks like the enormous weight was causing issues with early bearings even when they were designing it in the 1960's. This explains a bit about that as well.
1. Whining to the effect of 'they JUST found these? All the bearings went bad at once?'
Check this out
Yes, it is moderated up Informative. *sigh*
If the US is going to take on the role of Sole ISS Taxi, then the US has to have a reliable fleet.
I am terrified that NASA, under pressure to 'Get it done', is going to start missing key safety issues. I don't think out of laziness or incompetence, but more likely due to Lack of Budget and Pressure from the Political system in DC.
It is NECESSARY at this time to REPLACE this aging fleet.
If Space is where the US wants to be, and I certainly hope it is, the program needs a NEW FLEET before we have 7 more dead astronauts.
Perhaps it's time to get our Russian friends to bring Buran out of mothballs? It may be a 20 year old ship, but it's got Very Low Mileage.
If you want to use big words, it's best to use real ones and not make up your own. ;)
"Don't hate me because I'm right...Hate me because I'm an MCSE."
...which is currently scheduled for NET (no earlier than) Sept 28th...
Is Microsoft taking over our acronyms now, too? Where will it stop?
bug.gd: error search engine. Humanity working together to solve all errors.
A nitpick, but what is the point of using an acronym and then the whole thing in parenthesis because the acronym isn't used by anyone? Why not say the whole thing and forget about the acronym? SPSTM (Seems Pretty Stupid To Me)
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
this old NASA equipment (shuttles, crawler) isn't all it's cracked up to be...
umm... or maybe it is all cracked up to be.
~ kjrose
The Russians are suffering from delays right now, too.
(Btw., troll, we do indeed "have manned space flight capability right now." If, for some crazy reason, we absolutely had to launch a few guy into orbit, neither of these two problems would stop us. But, there's no emergency, so SAFETY FIRST!)
How would you keep a large platform level as the platform moves?
The original design had a mercury filled tube running around the perimeter of the transport platform. The idea was the mercury would flow to a low spot, trigger a relay and the low spot would rise. The basic idea was fine but it ignored latencies as the mercury flowed around the transport's 500 foot perimeter. They called my cousin in to fix the design after NASA powered the transport up and the platform started oscillating.
If I recall correctly (and I may not, it's been almost 40 years since he described the problem at the family dinner table), his solution was to discard the mercury tubes and replace them with photocells.
I thought they sold that on eBay.
I don't know about you, but a 20 year old car is usually pretty busted up. Even a well taken care of one is probably well beyond the point of requiring a complete overhaul in order to get anywhere near the original condition of the vehicle.
These shuttles and the crawler are about that old if I'm not mistaken and I know these must have been through several overhauls. But, has anyone though of looking into building new equipment? The shuttles are put through horendous stresses at least twice a year. They have to first sit on the ground in one atmosphere of pressure, then be hurtled into space at 10 Gs and then survive against zero pressure (or close to), and then drop back down and land.
I think we ought to look at some newer technology to get us up there before we start relying on the space elevator--if that idea pans out.
Let me be the first to say something that many might think is a tad silly...
After you decide to build something like a space shuttle - the decision process and what to build is another debate entirely - money should not be an object. Let me explain my point:
When the engineers were told to design this stuff (more the liners on the engines than the transporters) they likely came up with a beautiful design and were told to go back and find ways to make it cost less. Maybe this is OK when you're designing a Bic pen that stops writing half way through a meeting, but not when you're designing rocket engines.
The answer is to design the systems with total disregard for how much it costs and every regard for doing it right and producing the absolute highest quality machinery that can be built with the best materials known. There is no reason that we can't design rocket engine liners that don't crack -- except that we'd rather not spend the money. Try explaining that to the astronauts that fly engines with cracked liners after a catastrophe.
Vortran out
Knowledge is like ignorance.. too much can be just as bad as not enough.
Aren't all the problems being discovered now because of lack of funding? Durning the Clinton era, NASA was raped and thus they lack the people and the money to be looking at things like these. Come on, the crawlers are incredible pieces of machinery, unlike anything in the world. To assume that they could provide 30 years of use and not have problems is absurd.
Crew Member : There are cracked bearings in the cylinders that lift the shuttle and its launch platform on the transporter. Captain : Red Alert. Computer , divert power from secondary engine thrusters to the transporter. Crew Member : Its still not working. Shields are down to 80 %. Captain : Computer, divert power from life support systems to the transporter. Crew Member: It seems to be working. Captain : Accelerate to Warp 4!
...that they're discovered these problems on the ground rather than while the shuttles and crawlers are in motion.
I've seen that thing, it's insanely huge. I believe they said it gets about 1 inch/gallon, and the top speed is like 2 mph, but...
Put some armor and artillery on top of that bad boy and you've got yourself an Ogre!
A few of my NASA buddies and I got drunk one night, hotwired the crawlers and spent the evening drag racing them down the tarmac.
I may have over revved the engine on the first one while shifting from 2nd to 3rd gear at 0.7 miles per hour... I tell you, those suckers are tricky at those speeds...
Peter
Downsize DC Today!
while I don't really see anything impressive coming out of the Space Program aside from satellite communications, I think it's impressive that the old-school Apollo crawlers are still in use for this. I mean, how many people reading this have cars that are more than 20 years old that they haven't restored and still run well? and the fact that, if my assumption is correct, the crawlers are far too large to garage (unless they have built special hangers, which i wouldnt doubt, actually) that the wear and tear from weather alone on these, plus the obvious forces of having the heat and force of rocket engines blasting down upon them, is just flat out impressive too. But aside from military/government/educational projects, NASA hasn't really made any notable advances in decades. Sure, we can now build an international space station. But hell, we coulda done that years ago if we'd really felt the need. The occasional probe to mars etc. doesn't change the fact that we're still no closer to setting foot there. Still, I gotta admit that the crawlers rock.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
Car and Driver -- or some similar magazine -- once did a report on the crawler they use to transport the shuttle. It had things like "Mileage: 0.0000034 miles/gallon. Turning radius: 1000 ft". I'd love to see it again. Anyone ever come across it?
I used to work down at the space center, and got to see this beast roll slowly by a few times. Quite amazing. The pathway gets a new layer of coral rock gravel each time (I think), and after the launch platform goes by, there's nothing left but sand...
I object to that article, and to the next reply.
vehiculate To convey by means of a vehicle; to ride in a vehicle.
Putting moderation advice in your
the ROCKETGUY!!!
/.'ers didn't
we would never have this problem if the
rocket guy were in charge!!!
I cant belive that none of you
seize this oppurtunity for humor at another one's
expense.
long live rocketguy!!
(Guess they forgot to practice what they preach during Apollo 1 & 13 and SS Challenger, eh? Maybe they didn't "forget" but chose to "ignore" or "enable" instead.)
Now all of a sudden, ALL these problems are being noticed and documented with pretty pictures? Don't believe the hype. Figure out what NASA doesn't want you to. Your first clue might be why so many astronomical observatories are closed? And it's NOT because of "repairs" - that's the answer you are expected to believe.
_
Now I Believe I Really Understand.
What's a second? An hour? A day?
It has much more to do with
the Earth's rotation than with cesium.
Is it me or has NASA forgotten about basic maintenance on their equipment? Whenever we used the tracker loader or hoe we always spent half an hour or so greasing it and checking for damage. Did NASA forget to do this with their workhorses? Hell a farmer spends much of his winter doing maintenance on his equipment. I think NASA needs to remember some of the basics before they fly again.
http://www.apollosaturn.com/crawler/crawl.htm
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
Seriously, is it even worth ALL that mula we put into refining and rebuilding the space shuttles (i mean come on, when government agencies have to resort to eBay for parts, somethings dead wrong). I personally believe they should strip the old shuttles down to materials and rebuild them from the ground up. they could probably cut costs TREMENDUSLY since the advent of lighter carbon fiber materials, and better alloys to build the hull of, they could shave at least 3 or 4 tons off the shuttles weight, saving around $150,000 a flight on fuel alone. and with newer controls and faster computers (maybe they should go with something socket 370 this time, intel made those chips forever AND STILL IS lol) they could turn the space shuttle into something more "pleasant" to fly at the least. then maybe we could see more people wanting to go to space.
How long might they be stuck there if we can't get a shuttle up for a while?
O=='=++
Is this even a word? They mean "moves" right?
I figured maybe it was a Bush-ism.
Yeeeee- HAW!
A few raindrops could ground the space shutlle fleet.
LOL, I just read how Amtrak had to shut down the Acela lines (high speed rail service) due to cracks in brackets.
e ws -3/102931622010952.xml
Doesn't surprise me, they are both government funded beaurocracies.
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/n
A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin