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More on KDE Groupware
e8johan writes "The KDE PIM Team will integrate all their applications into one common interface and create an Outlook-like application.This is being done in the Kroupware project commissioned by the German government. There is a prototype of KOrganizer with KMain embedded into it (shots 1, 2), and another prototype with KMain running as a KPart in Kaplan (shot 1, 2, 3). This looks hopeful and if they manage to build the application as flexible and modular as other KDE projects this will hopefully mature into something great." Kroupware is a catchy name, but I wonder if the KDE team is aware of the English word croup.
Quoth the Simpsons.
Krusty : "KKK? Thats not good."
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
wasn't it supposed to be the Outlook/Evolution killer?
kde and the kde naming scheme is a real tongue twister kde kdevelop koffice ....
say that 10 times fast
This is exactly what KDE needs. Best of luck to the PIM teams because this is the final piece of the KDE on the desktop puzzle that businesses need to supplant outlook/exchange. If it hooks into a nice backend as easily as Outlook does to exchange then we're looking at a contendor.
Have a Happy.
I'd be much more worried about the superficial phoenetic similarity to "Krautware," which I think could be much more detrimental to this German project.
Seriously, this is the kind of thing that can cause big problems later on.
Another step in the right direction. Just as long as the KDE group doesn't stray from open standards like other software companies.
I'm a kde user but I also use evolution. Why would I want to switch to Kroupware when evolution already does this and has the ability to connect to exchange servers? Aren't KDE and Gnome already redundant enough?
If Red Hat adopts this (instead of going off and doing their own thing), then we might have a great competitor for Micro$oft Losedows' killer app -- the calendaring function.
So much precious OOS developer time wasted on reinventing the wheel.
Imagine if we have a KDE compatible/look like evolution, we can save so much time in redoing just another outlook client - kaplan, which is basically the same thing as evolution.
I dont ever need to use two PIM client (outlook clone) that has identical functionality but with two different set of configuration files and stores my information differently.
... more SickWare...
It was a joke, laugh...
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
why would anyone want anything along the lines of outlook? If I want mail, I'll use a mail program. If I wan't a calendar or planner, i'll use a program that does those things. Having a giant program that sucks and does a billion things you probably don't want or need isn't the answer...just because people are used to it doesnt make it a good program or idea.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
Exactly what is the reason the government spends our tax-money on this?
Well at least they now have scantily clad women in the ads for this story, marking the first point where the ads started becoming more fascinating than the storeis on slashdot.
I've been seeing people say 'this is the last step' or similar things, about some type of 'outlook killer' app for Linux. It won't be the last step. By the time there is something that is workable/usable for the majority of companies, there will be some other roadblock/obstacle which people start saying 'we have to have or we can't switch'. I'm not saying I necessarily even know what that is at this point, but it'll happen.
First it was web browsers.
Then an office suite.
Now an 'outlook' killer.
What next? `
Personal security/prefs setting ala 'passport'? Though that hasn't seemed to have taken off as pervasively (or publicly) as might have been. Honestly I can't think of what it might be, but there'll no doubt be some other area of corporate culture MS gets embedded into quickly, which will take years to wean people away from (if in fact they want to get weaned away - if it works for them, just let it be).
creation science book
Kroupware is a catchy name, but I wonder if the KDE team is aware of the English word croup.
;-)
Hmmmmm.....
A viral disease, often caused by..
Well, it _is_ supposed to be an Outlook replacement, isn't it?
Soko
"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
.. whole reason behind the quote from the Red Hat developer about "crapland" in KDE.
The KDE-naming scheme is sort of a legal crapland. Namely the Killustrator, Krayon, etc.-issues.
GNOME and GTK+-developers are of course also sometimes guilty of this.
Why does everything have to be named "K-something" or "G-something"? I don't find it catchy at all.
I thought everybody was bashing groupware apps because of their huge memory and disk usage (what if you dont want a specific functionality like is my case with Mozilla Mail under Windows - it insists it needs to install Mozilla Browser also). What if you dont want to download all that mess? what if you only want a contacts program and want to use Evolution for mail? Instead of this, they should get to gether into modularizing all these small apps and let the user put them toghether into a common app or window. Now this would be revolutionary.
...It refers to a portion of the back end of a horse. This makes it quite appropriate for an all-in-one "Outlook-like" application.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
This is so freakin' cool. Kmail has been my email client of choice for two years now, and I would love to use both kmail and korganizer without switching from window to window.
The fact that all this is going to tie into a non-proprietary groupware backend is icing on the cake for me. The company I work for has been interested in groupware for some time, and I can finally stop fending off the requests for MS Exchange from our Sales dept.
--Wulfhere
-- Sent from a computer.
It's been pointed out to them and they've explained that it's a working name, not a final decision.
Meanwhile, I've tried to suggest that the developers of the Perl/QT user interface compiler choose a less disgusting name than "puic" ...
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
"...but I wonder if the KDE team is aware of the English word croup."
Considering that Microsoft shuns GPL'd code more than virus, it is indeed more than appropriate.
Is it the governments job to take tax-money payed by all of us and put them into projects that competes (unfairly) with the products we make??? We (both in the sense of companies and as employees in those companies) must balance income with expenses, they can just pour in how much tax-money they want to.
I'm not talking just about this particular project but generally speaking.
The client looks fine and dandy, it looks like a wrapper for a bunch of different programs.. and people are already asking how is this better than evolution.. so KDE and Gnome have their own Outlook killers, but where is the Exchange killer ? I don't want to see screenshots of people's emails, I want to see screenshots of the tools an admin would use to configure the backend, how would I administer the calendaring portion of the server ? How about users email ? where is the equivalent of MMC ?.
Or do they still expect the admins to use vi, or kate to edit config files ?. Editing config files is fine, but with the targetted goal of the system, it will be too complex to remember which config file changes x and y. We need good, cross Environment (Kde or Gnome), tools to do this.
Wake me up when those are ready, I can't code, and I can't learn how to code and start contributing to this project by weeks end. I really hope the govt focuses some of this talent towards the Admin side.. I'm sure they will. But, I felt like beating a dead horse.
Since it's comissioned by the German government, the project will be known forth as Krautware ... ;)
"The 'K' stands for quality."
This space for rent.
KDE development is bound to hit a brickwall in a couple of years, as they're only so many nouns in english that begin with "K".
-- por uma vida + open source
A project like this may be nice for all-linux companies, but it's ultimately meaningless in the big picture unless it implements standard protocols (or, in case there aren't any, microsoft protocols).
You just gotta love it when people talk about Outlook being a bloated piece of evil-ware by Moft.
And looky here, we have outlook for KDE.
Way to go.
(btw, I'm all for an outlook for KDE - just hope it has an API and object model nearly as good as outlook's - or else there'd be no point).
The thing that bothers me about
applications/desktops/wm's/etc
that are made to look exactly like
microsoft applications is that it
only fuels the argument that no
actual innovation is happening.
There seems to be too much
emphasis on making things as
pretty and familiar as possible
for the annoyed windows user looking
to migrate, and less emphasis on
making something unique and earth
shatteringly ground breaking. I'd
think it would be more important to
make something that is so much
better that it's forgone conclusion
as to whether or not you want to bother
playing with it.
The most important thing any republican needs to know.
who are aware of the English word "croup", so I don't think it will be a problem.
You can either look at the sceenshots or read this to learn that engineers should never create user interfaces.
Signature deleted by lameness filter.
...at least in English.
I sure wish the KDE team would krow out of this keverything-kmust-kstart-kwith-a-K naming convention and realize that their creative horizons can really be much broader.
The different "modules", i.e. the mailer part, the calendering part, etc, are implemented as KParts. This means that you will be able to specify which KPart you want to embed for what functions (similar to how you can choose which text editing widget you want to use, KVim as Konqueror's textarea anyone?).
:)
It also means it is mostly "just" a shell around existing components, not another re-invented wheel. Not more bloated than running the components seperately (probably less overhead even, because you only need one KApplication instance).
In a sense it is tying existing technologies together (think back-end here too, using Open Source tech) into a slick package.
You don't *have* to use it, but corporate settings will probably like it.
As for your tax money (you live in Germany?) paying for the development, would you rather see the money go to Microsoft and get a product in return which will need upgrading eventually? Oh, and *you* personally don't get anything out of it, whereas now you get to use this development to your heart's content. And even if you don't like to use it personally, you'll be able to deploy it for your clients so they can at least use open technology).
To loosely quote Miguel de Icaza: it's not about making money, it's about *solving the problem*.
Personally, I'd happily pay 1% extra taxes to Germany (and I don't even live there!) to be used on similar projects because they benefit *everyone* (read below before you say "except software companies").
You see, times change. It used to be good business selling boxed software, but it's becoming less and less so. The trick now lies in providing a *service*. There will always be a need for skilled IT people, but to provide services, not simply products. I.e. a company specifies what their infrastructure needs to do, what requirements there are, etc, and you implement it using open source technology. There are no purchase or license fees (apart from specialised high-end software) and the value is in how well you set things up. It works for me
...since kde users only seem unintelligable bullshit posts like yours.
You said to wake you up...
From the link in the article...Kolab is the name of the server component.
Archetecture Paper
Once again a /. comment that goes off ranting without folowing any of the links in the story...
Good good good. This is the way to go. The linux platform needs a killer application like this. I think another ide is to make an application which incorperates both M$ Project and M$ Outlook. That is an application every economic would die for, and remember economics rule the world!
Aethera is out there and I barely understand why the KDE folks don't put their full effort behind it instead of rolling their own.
_ _
I barely understand this because it is not officially a KDE program but a QT program. Still, how many times does that darn wheel need re-inventing?
If the source is available shouldn't there be a way to get the program to tie into KDE better as opposed to figuring out a whole new approach?
Does anyone know the reasoning behind this?
_______________________________________________
ACK
A new version of Apollo 440's Krupa...
Now Back To Kroupware's Synchronised Bytes...
"You know you want me baby!" - Crow T Robot
Does Kroupware include a steamy bathroom? If so, this adds a whole new value to the program. I've really been wanting to remodel. With this I even get all the plumbing and wiring diagrams!!
Kroupier? they could use cool casino graphics.
sulli
RTFJ.
Let's just not clone the aspects of Microsoft that are most annoying: the idea that there is one solution that works for everybody, and tying together clients and servers through proprietary protocols. If ever system configuration, mail, calendaring, or other imporant Linux functions started relying on Gnome or KDE, it would be the beginning of the end for Linux--because it would then really start being just like Windows.
I just taught a week-long Linux+ class to a bunch of Windows 2000 admins. After two days of telling them how to operate at the command line, including discussions of BASH, editing tools, and the contents of /etc, I very nearly faced a revolt.
/etc directory. All you really need is a trusty text editor and about half a clue. The text editor is usually packaged in the distribution.
"Where's the GUI?"
Now, I'm not saying this to insult Windows admins or to blindly troll, but it took a good half of a day to convey to these people that there wasn't a "THE" GUI to admin a Linux server. I showed them Webmin and linuxconf-web, then I showed them SWAT and what it did to the smb.conf file. I told them that while I prefer to edit the config files manually, as that usually gave me more options, "There's More Than One Way To Do It."
(This, by the way, was percieved as a shortcoming of Linux by the Windows admins.)
I'm not sure what the hard part is about having - not an end-user, but a professional admin - edit a text file to modify configuration files. Is there something unclear about settings like "ENABLE = yes"? I can (almost) understand if you've been traumatized by a zealot who's soured you on vi or emacs, but you know there ARE alternatives (KATE, pico, joe, et al) that are relatively easy to use.
Tools like MMC are required in Windows, because Windows settings are held in a database (the registry/metabase) which is unwieldy to edit in other ways (regedt32, for example). Similar settings are held in Linux as (for the most part, very well commented) text files in the
Carthago delenda est!
Hey tard, that joke has been used 3 times before your post. Try something original for a change...
And how the fuck can these be moderated to 5, Funny ; when the other posts were mod'd as Redundant or something... and this post CAME AFTER those other posts.
Crackhead mods...
But is has nothing to do with the comment the
guy wrote. What he wrote applied to things that
are windows like. You succeeded in proving that
you can't read.
who is using kde anyways ? i mean it is full of shit, bloat, takes ages to load, does not integrate smoothly into the filesystem when installed, depends on a krautload of gnome libraries. in this case it is better using gnome at all.
who wants kde ? why is it still beeing developed ? why not drop kde development and help gnome to get better ? kde on a long term is a lost project.
kde has no fucking applications that we people can use so why do we need to deal with it ?
- galeon is far better than konqueror
- nautilus is far more usable than konqueror
- evolution is far better than kmail
- xmms is far better than noatun
- abiword is far better than kmail
- gnumeric is far better than kmail
- xchat is far better than kopete
- gnome looks far better than kde
- gnome is following the HIG and kde not
- KDE has wrong button ordering GNOME not
- KDE is a pain and needs to get removed from the linux community
- KDE takes ages to compile
- KDE is crashing like niggers buttsmell
- KDE is a waste of time
- GNOME has more users than KDE
- GNOME will get more users in the future
- GNOME 2.0 is yet better than KDE 3.1
- GNOME 2.0 has yet better preferences than KDE
- GNOME is backed by SUN and REDHAT and KDE has nothing.
- KDE developers are fucking jews that needs to get put into the KZ (konzentrationslager)
- KDE is the pestilence in the linux community
- GNOME the only future
- GNOME has a cool office suite named OPENOFFICE which will soon be converted to GTK+ by XIMIAN
- KDE is unusable and has a bad integration
- KDE sucks.
- KDE sucks more.
- KDE needs to die
- KDE is trollware
- KDE is buttugly
- KDE will never make it
- KDE is made by jews and nazis
- KDE smells like german shit
- GNOME juarez niggers.
- GNOME is cool together with mozilla and openoffice it integrates soo cool
I didn't know they made a web browser for the Vic-20.
I've been dreaming of implementing something like Kroupware for my .org a long time. After reading the spesification I feel there are a few things still missing:
a) A clear strategy for including other Open Source programes like Mutt, Mozilla and Balsa. Kroupware will not be a killer app before users has a choice in regard of apps to run it on.
b) Placing personal adressbooks in an LDAP repository. Keeping adressbooks in kmail is IMHO stupid because it doesnt enable a) and binds the user to a special mailclient. Using the fine webmail package Horde, personal ldap adressbooks is now quite possible. The only thing needed for Kroupware is to enable personal _writeable_ adressbooks in LDAP.
Tarjei
They make a web browser for everything.
My toaster has a web browser. So does my
cigarette lighter. Where the fuck have you
been.
Their contract requires that they have a stable version up and running by October 15. Come back in three weeks.
It seems that every discussion of groupware is centered on providing "Outlook-like" functionality. I use outlook at work and can't help but believe that there are better approaches to this type of interface. Evolution just looks like a knock-off to me, so what! How about some real innovation in user interface design in KDE (or GNOME) instead of just trying to keep up with Micro$oft.
Does anyone find that the latest versions of Evolution don't work with their IMAP servers? Everything was fine until recently... 1.0.7 or 1.0.8. I haven't seen anyone else mention this so was just wondering if it's my server.
Random is the New Order.
Collaboration should be easy. Why aren't more people making moves like horde.org, and building web solutions. Then you don't need anything but a standards compliant browser to do the job.
There is a subtle difference between competition and pure redundancy. Competition is good because it "raises the bar" of some quantity such as quality, price, value, features, etc. But for two things to be competing, they must be different in some fundamental way.
Two pieces of software that are virtually identical except for their GUI toolkit are not competitive, they are redundant.
Now, we don't know exactly how this Kroupware will come out, so we really don't know yet whether it will be competitive or redundant. If it's basically just Evolution written to the QT toolkit and KDE libs, then it will be redundant; if it (hopefully) offers something distinctive and raises the bar for Linux groupware, then it will be competitive.
More to the point, Kroupware sounds much too close to Crapware, and that's a bad joke I'd just as soon not hear. I hope they have a contest to rename the project; it is certainly insteresting work.
--binkley
Are you really on a Vic-20? I was only joking. Last time I saw a narrow Usenet post, someone replied "I didn't know you could get online with at Gameboy."
or other imporant Linux functions started relying on Gnome or KDE, it would be the beginning of the end for Linux--because it would then really start being just like Windows.
And why would this be the end of Linux? It might be the end of egotistical elitest Linux hippie types, as any and everyone would be able to use it rather than just the 1337 few but, it wouldn't be the end of Linux. In fact, if Linux were exactly like Windows, do you think that anyone would ever again PAY for Windows? This is exactly what Microsoft fears the most from Linux. If it does get to be the same as Windows, no one will shell out US$300 for a copy of Windows XP whatever when they can down load the "same thing"(Linux) for free.
Indeed, if Linux were to become the same as Windows, it would be a crushing blow to Microsoft, not Linux. BillG can't sell his product against the same thing for free. If Linux were being made by a company and sold for even only US$5 a pop, Microsoft wouldn't be worried. In that case they could afford to give Windows away, just long enought to put that company out of business and then Microsoft could return to charging thier usual prices. But, Linux is totally free. Forever! Microsoft can't compete against that and BillG knows it. So, he must instead make Windows better and point out the shortcomings of Linux to make people want to spend big bucks on his overpriced OS.
The fact is however, that Linux is not becoming the same as Windows. Linux is very different from Windows and that is part of the reason that so many people presently fear using it. But, the KDE and Gnome interfaces to Linux are becoming more Windows like everyday. This is a good thing as it will hide the differences and complexities of Linux from people who do not know, care or want to think about what's underneath. Instead, it will present them with an interface that 99% of the computer using population is already familiar and comfortable with. They will be far less fearful and far more likely to give Linux a try. Then they will think, "I can spend US$300 for MS Windows or I can have the "same thing" for free?!?!?!?!? Hmmmm....."
From the article: "Kroupware is a catchy name, but I wonder if the KDE team is aware of the English word croup" I think it's more likely to be a spin-off from the German Conglomerate Krupp, than the english 'Croup'. Krupp is knonw mostly for it's steel production, if I remember correctly. IANAG (I Am Not A German).
If you mod me down, I *will* introduce you to my sister!
I use evolution 1.0.8 and 1.1.1 against an IMAP server every day with no problems at all.
I have never understood why calendaring and emailing functionality have to exist in a single monolithic (excuse the hyperbole) application. I mean, I see how both probably should share common components, and that some level of integration (it is nice to receive a meeting announcement and click accept to add to your calendar) is extremely desireable, but why do we have to reinvent Outlook?
ants are in my pants
chewing on a crumb
i'm a big fucking baby
and my songs are dumb
Magellan
Aethera
some other Qt-only one that lasted maybe a week (began with a C if I recall correctly)
and now Krapware! Er, I mean Kroupware! When will this one fail? I give it till the end of the year, I bet by then it will have keeled over and been replaced with yet another attempt at writing a groupware suite for KDE.
*sigh*
I absolutely loathe deliberate mispellings of words that begin with "C" with a "K". This bothers me so much, I'm going to recompile all of KDE spelled correctly when I get some free time!
The sooner my linux laptop can be productive at work as well as at home.
Thank you Germany!
Exchange goes far beyond what you describe. First by centralizing these functions it makes it easier to manage the single application, rather than several different ones. Backups are a breeze.
The calendaring goes beyond what you describe. Not only can you receive a meeting invitation, you can also share calendars or entire mail boxes. This is a common practice, where managers will share their calendar or mailbox with a secretary so that the secretary can perform various functions, like setting appointments, for the manager while they are out of the office. If you call and would like an appointment with the manager, you will more likely get his secretary who, if they are using Exchange, can look at his calendar and tell you when he would be available for such an appointment. Then the secretary can register the appointment in the manager's Outlook calendar. Beyond that still, even if you do not care to share a calendar with anyone, people who wish to schedule meetings with you can immediately see if any and all of the meeting participants are available at that particular time. They cannot see what is on the calendar but, they can see that you have something scheduled and are unavailable at the time they are trying to schedule the meeting for. This makes meeting scheduling much faster than the older method of offering several different times to various participants and hoping that they will respond and that their responses do not conflict with other meeting participants.
Then there is the additional feature of Exchange called public folders. Here you can store publicly available discussion forums, rather like USENET. Also, you can store forms, bulletin boards and any other public information that you like. You can also restrict access to these "public" areas to certain people.
Exchange 2000 also has a NNTP server built in so you can host USENET news or your own NNTP news groups.
Then there is the BIG difference. Exchange is extensible meaning that other applications can be layered on top of or integrated into Exchange. These third party applications include things like document management, voice mail, Faxing and much much more.
Don't forget, Outlook is not the same as Outlook Express and that Outlook is simply a client application. It is the Exchange server at the back end that really provides the great services that people want. Many of these service are mission critical to a LOT of businesses. Also, don't forget that although you claim not to like Outlook, the VAST majority of users like it very much. They like having everything right there in a single convenient location and for them, it just works!
It would be great to see if this application could stand up to a true groupware offering - Lotus Notes/Domino. Groupware = Empowering teams to better communicate and share information through technical means. Lotus Notes allows discussion databases to be easily created/customized with minimal development effort, and includes a full, robust security model. Will Kroupware compete with this or is it just an Outlook (email) front-end?
If we all stopped at the point where somebody says "It's been done before" we wouldn't have Linux, KDE or GNOME and I'd be posting to /. in IE.
You misspelled "Mosaic".
Kroupware, Kroupware über alles,
Über alles in der Welt
Of course they would, since it would still be included in the proce of the computer. If Linux==Windows there really is no reason to switch for the vast numbers of people that think Windows comes free because they don't get an itemised bill.
Instead, it will present them with an interface that 99% of the computer using population is already familiar and comfortable with.
Yes, a shit one. You remind me of the stories of car manufacturers that spent time trying to duplicate reins instead of going over to steering wheels.
Basically what you are saying boils down to "we fear and hate change". Well, that's your problem and I don't care if you think I'm being "egotistical", "elitest" or even "1337" because I don't want you to hold me back.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
As much as I hate Microsoft and dislike Outlook, I must admit that the meeting planner in Outlook is a "must have" application in business.
The one serious flaw in the planner is the human factor. All too often people wouldn't keep their calendar up to date or wouldn't bother to reply to a meeting notice.
-- Will program for bandwidth
Now this would be great idea if it was adopted in the US wouldnt it.
Basically your tax money, paying for the deveopment of open source programs.
The state using your dollars, to put you
out of a job.
Socialism at its very best.
This is one more cog in the wheel that is useful software from opensource communities. It really is a great idea, but I think, slightly flawed. Let me explain...
The arch paper goes into great depths describing all the great things the server and clients will do. It really is a description of a full end to end solution (I know that's what was asked for). Which, BTW, doesn't necessarily mean just to replace Outlook, but could refer to any other expensive groupware solution as there are at least 3 being used right now (Lotus Notes for instance). My take on this is that the project should focus on defining useful groupware properties from the perspective of a user. Put that information out for everyone to read and comment on, then work on creating a backed server type solution that is completely client agnostic. Then, in parallel, develop a KDE client to work with it. I would think it would be much easier for Evolution, KMail, Mozilla, and whoever else writes clients to adhere to a good open standard than it would to adhere to a completely KDE solution, even if it is open source. This also alleviates some of the other issues raised, such as the project is too KDE centric, or why do what MS does?
Having read and digested some of this, it seems like a fantastic idea, but it's hard to overcome the feeling that it is absolutely targeted at Outlook. Maybe instead of competeing (like the German gov't wants), this is an opportunity to create a more user defined type of groupware. It's also an opportunity to create business opportunities for companies supporting Linux. Create a full blown groupware package based on this project and sell setup-config-support. This is also a fantastic opportunity to further all sorts of pieces of GNU/Linux that where limiting the design is, IMHO, limiting it's appeal and usefulness.
But who knows? I'm not all that against a complete KDE desktop takeover. Can't be a monopoly if it doesn't sell it's product.
Bah
Of course they would, since it would still be included in the proce of the computer. If Linux==Windows there really is no reason to switch for the vast numbers of people that think Windows comes free because they don't get an itemised bill.
Wrong again. The user may not see the cost on their itemized bill but, Dell and HP and Gateway definitely do. If the could provide the same thing on their PCs without it costing them they could increase their profit. Or they could reduce the cost of their PC to the consumer and increase their sales.
Furthermore, what about upgrades. Case in point, my father-in-law. The other day he says, "I went into your favorite retail store the other day to see about getting a new copy of Windows. I fugured that the price must have gone down in the last cuple of years but, I was amazed to see that it costs US$199 now! Needless to say, I didn't get it."
Basically what you are saying boils down to "we fear and hate change". Well, that's your problem and I don't care if you think I'm being "egotistical", "elitest" or even "1337" because I don't want you to hold me back.
You may well be right. Perhaps 90% of the computer users out there DO fear change. After all it's human nature. But, no one is holding you back.
That's the beauty of KDE and GNome. They are totally configuarble. You can do whatever you want with them and they won't hold you back. But, by having the default install look like Windows, that 90% of the computer using population don't immediately slam their minds shut when they first see it. It is a win-win situation for everyone. Unless you're Microsoft, that is....
> if you feel you can be a respectable KDE user
> while using software that doesn't start with "K",
> then go ahead...
I just renamed my menu to read Kevo-Lution.
Problem solved.;-)
> Magellan
> Aethera
> some other Qt-only one that lasted maybe a week
> (began with a C if I recall correctly)
> I give it till the end of the year, I bet by then
> it will have keeled over and been replaced with
> yet another attempt at writing a groupware suite
> for KDE.
Kroupware will succeed. The reason Aethera, Magellan, and others failed was because they didn't begin with a K.
But what if *gasp!* I don't LIKE the Outlook philosophy. Right now, the nicest thing about KMail for me is that it is much closer to Netscape or Mozilla's mail clients, an interface that I prefer by far. I have never liked Outlooks way of doing things. Just because it's from Microsoft doesn't mean you have to mimic it. You've already got something better, don't mess with it just to make it more Microsoft-esque!
--GrouchoMarx
Card-carrying member of the EFF, FSF, and ACLU. Are you?
Even better than that: you don't need to use them at all! WindowMaker keeps me happy.
I think that your father-in-law is slightly unusual. None of the Windows users I've known in the last nearly 10 years has ever bought an upgrade, they just get a new machine or make do with the version they had. And, of course, the new machines had new versions "free" with them. You are right about Dell and Gateway but their problem is not price, it's MS's muscle that stops them selling Linux machines.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Hacking take on a new meaning with croup-ware
Think global, act loco
Croup (kr??p), n. [F. croupe hind quarters,
croup, rump, of German or Icel. origin; cf. Icel. kryppa hump; akin to Icel. kroppr. Cf. Crop.]
The hinder part or buttocks of certain quadrupeds, especially of a horse; hence, the place behind the saddle.
© Webster 1913.
pi = 3.141592653589793helpimtrappedinauniversefactory7
Then dont use it. Kaplan just embeds KMail...
I have to say I agree. Evolution and Outlook are horribly designed. I much prefer KMail as a powerful mail client, Kabc and Korganizer being separate, but they still are capable of working together, but not all in the same window. Evolution is horrid.
And just which part, pad're of the 0.025% *nix desktop share are the KDE_egocents trying to capture? ... KDE coders should keep BOTH thumbs on the keyboard ...
Doing a special good (byte)deed for the working stiffs, are they? Maybe
of a test preparation company. Where did they get this name? It doesn't seem to be a dictionary word.
Oh, wait! D'oh!
True, most of these things do already exist. The thing is that they are all INTEGRATED in Exchange 2000. I hate to say it but, "seamlessly integrated" not slapped together in a hodge podge of different applications.
Also, regarding your advice about pointing to directories... Exchange stores all of its information in a high performance database. This technique makes it much faster than a directory and file based system. Much faster! This is especially important when you are looking at information stores that support thousands of concurrent users, tied to dozens of other information stores. If this weren't true, there would be no need for Kolab. We could simply throw Postfix and Cyrus together with iCalendar and we'd be done, somewhat like Caldera/SCO does with the Volution Messaging package..
But, Kolab IS needed because, so far, nothing else compares with Exchange except Notes and GroupWise and none of them is open source.
I have the highest hopes for Kolab, the HIGHEST hopes.
Not as far as I've ever seen!
Takes piggin' ages to reconsolidate/manage/release data.
Why don't they name their groupware project Kollaborate? Makes more sense to me and stays with the krazy konvention of names.
Learn to spell: nickel, missile, lose, solely, amendment, speech, kernel, probably, ridiculous, deity, hierarchy, versus
Galeon's 'G' may be due to Gnome, but to my knowledge 'Galeon' is not an acronym. And many gnome app's don't use g's at all (eg Evolution, Abiword, Sodipodi, Nautilus).
Yes, the same "egotistical elitist Linux hippie types" that created UNIX and Linux in the first place. I am one of them, and I am not ashamed of it.
I took refuge a little less than a decade ago in Linux from lousy Windows user interfaces and overpriced Sun workstations, and if that kind of junk follows me to the Linux platform, I have to move again.
if Linux were to become the same as Windows, it would be a crushing blow to Microsoft, not Linux. BillG can't sell his product against the same thing for free.
And why the hell would I care? If Linux becomes just like Windows, why would I care whether it comes from Bill Gates or whether it's free? What makes Linux interesting to me is that it is still different, in particular in its UI.
But, the KDE and Gnome interfaces to Linux are becoming more Windows like everyday.
As I said, as long as they don't become a core part of the Linux infrastructure, it's fine with me--it's a free country. The moment I have to run them in order to, say, configure the kernel (the new Qt-based kernel configurator is a bad step in that direction), I'm off the platform, as are many other "egotistical hippie types". Fortunately, there are still plenty of obscure, non-mainstream operating systems to go around.
No. Even Motif was much more configurable than KDE or Gnome. KDE and Gnome are basically Windows UI clones with a few more options in their "Preferences" panels. That kind of thing may have a place in this world, but don't delude yourself that it's innovative or configurable.
The $1m the German Government is paying for this; you see this was the one piece they need that allows them to run a Linux pilot. Besides Outlook is very popular with corporations it gets Linux one step closer
I'm going to let my gnome programs start with K and my KDE programs start with G!
Oh, the wonderful chaos!
Here is a short list of places we have XP beat stone cold in terms of innovation:
/proc /proc filesystem it is easy to pull tremendous information about a running process. Its even quite possible to change the binary a process is running while it is running. NT has nothing like this
1) Network transparency -- X windows
This is something the Windows folks really really hard at with little luck. Java is all about being able to distribute apps. As most of us Unix guys know most Unix apps run fine on very limited dumb X-Servers which means they can be made to run fine on PDA's and Cell phones.
2) Custom File Systems -- FAT, XFS, HFS, etc...
Unix systems are designed to support a large number of file system seamlessly. So for example I can pop a Mac disk into my Linux laptop and read it no problem. Further on the high end we support file systems designed for specific tasks like XFS which speeds up disk operations on large files about 2x over most file systems.
3) Detailed system information --
With the invention of the
4) Language support --
While the commercial systems are catching up Linux is way ahead of most commercial systems in support languages especially languages which are very different than English (for example Hebrew and Arabic are written right to left). We've had this for decades and the result is that everything is fully implemented almost across the board.
5) Academic software
In almost every area of academia Linux systems are used and support compex innovations that simply don't exist anywhere in the PC world.
6) A powerful command line
read the title as Kroutware... something tells me the Germans wouldn't fund such a program...
Everytime you look at porn a devil gets their horns.
How about "kontact" or "kontakt" for a name?
Copyrights, Patents, Trademarks: temporary loans from the Public Domain, not real property ("intellectual" or otherwise)
I'm the guy who ported KMail to being a KPart and who put up the Kaplan screenshots on troll.no I would like to answer some questions and address some criticisms.
0 845
:-)
4 0596&threshol d=1&commentsort=0&tid=121&mode=thread&pid=4321672# 4322886
I'm going to be answering questions from the KMail used as a KPart perspective, rather than the embed KOrganizer etc into KMail perspective.
Regarding http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=40596&cid=432
"why would anyone want anything along the lines of outlook? If I want mail, I'll use a mail program. If I wan't a calendar or planner"
Hey you can start up both the calendar and mail client with a single click, isn't that a technological break through?
To answer your real criticism, I've made KMail a KPart this means that KMail can be embedded into a container application like Kaplan and can communicate with other parts. KOrganizer and KAddressbook are already KParts. But KMail, KOrganizer, KAddressbook etc can still be used as a standalone application the same as always.
Regarding
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=
"Will they [the programs] be able to communicate even when separate? For instance an invitation in KMail, will connect to Korganizer and put it in there? DCOP should allow that to happen."
Yes DCOP can and is used to make things like that happen, and yes DCOP can be used even when the programs are running separately. DCOP kicks ass.
Regarding the names kroupware and kaplan (numerous comments). The kroupware developers have stated that kroupware is the name of a project not the name of an application. The kroupware development is being done in a cvs branch and is intended to be merged into the existing KDE applications.
Regarding Kaplan, okay it's a trademarked name used by a company that produces education software so I guess a new name is definitely need.
Personally I like Kontact, I've done a trade mark search and I think "KDE Kontact" should be ok.
Yeah I like K* names, I consider it a kind or branding, bad luck K* name haters.
Regarding duplication of effort. This is not a completely new effort. We have been working on separate components for several years now, at least I've been working on KMail for 4 years, and was cofounder of the kde-pim package. Now one way or the other we are plugging together these separate components.
I'm only speaking for myself here, I have no formal connection with the German government and this effort of mine isn't connected to an official Trolltech project. (But Trolltech is a great company, they let me use company resources to work on KDE stuff, and would never dream of firing me for putting slashdotted screenshots on their webspace without formally asking for permission first).
Don Sanders.
No because they weren't developed by KDE developers... The same reason GNOME is going to fail ;-)
...is too similar to krautware.
OK, Exchange Lover, please tell me how to achieve the following simple task using OL2k/Exchange.
1) broadcast mail to #all asking for 'volunteers' (for example) - easy
2) Get 100 replies - fair enough
3) Send a common reply to all 100 respondees *without* manually adding them to the address list (you cannot select multiple mails and hit 'reply' for some unknowable reason)
4) Set up a meeting using the shared calendaring with all those respondees invited - and you can't drag their mails onto a meeting request, you have to invite them 1 by 1, manually. Why can't I drag their replies onto my calendar to generate a meeting request?
(3) is the one that really puzzles me as it seems such an obvious requirement. So many unwanted features instead....
answers please on a postcard to miles.hemberATgenerics group (all one word) dotCOM
www.prochange.org even....
put the what in the where?
did you knew about the MS-hunzinger scandal that caused the loss of votes for Chancellor Schroeder??
9 5. php
His Government invests in KDE.
http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2002/09/170
There is already a mature, reliable, inexpensive (for professional use), robust groupware platform for Linux that supports open standards...
I agree with the other posted who mentions that typically, these are tools used by businesses and should be managed by *professional* sysadmins and developers [shameless plug]. KDE can and should create an "Outlook Killer" but I doubt we'll ever see the range and depth provided by something like Domino. They seem to have quite a well-defined plan there, but for those of you who are interested, these are some other great Open Source groupware initiatives for Linux that build on the Domino idea and in most cases extend it (say hi to Nate for me). You may also want to cross-reference this with IBM's Domino Groupware for Linux information at their site.
I really do wish these folks the best of luck.
"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech."--Benjamin Franklin
I'm trying to get read in on the project (RFCs, relevent projects, etc.), and also ran a few numbers:
There are a few projects that allow you to take scheduling info generated by evolution and publish this data to a web page (jical for one), but an exchange replacement AFAIK just doesn't exist yet. Gripe as much as you want, but this is a big missing piece that we have to deal with if we want to be successful dethroning windows in the corporate world.
The upsetting thing is that the iCalendar RFCs were written in 1996, and we still haven't gotten a satisfactory working product, as noted a few weeks ago here on slashdot.
Oh, and:
Need a Linux consultant in New Orleans?
hyperlink test
Many of the convicted thieves Parker has met began their
life of crime after taking college Computer Science courses.
-- Roger Rapoport, "Programs for Plunder", Omni, March 1981
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