Red Hat 8.0 Released

FP! by plazman30 · 2002-10-02 01:12 · Score: 4, Insightful

Let them have what ever interface they want. This is Linux. You are free to change it.

Re:FP! by rseuhs · 2002-10-02 01:29 · Score: 2, Interesting

But also let us have our opinion about it. We are free to say it.
Re:FP! by fault0 · 2002-10-02 02:29 · Score: 2

You really beleive what _mosfet_ has to say?

Of course, you can't ignore the contributions he's made to KDE. He's a great coder, but needs to grow up. He's discredited not only among KDE developers but also most of the larger community as a while (well, except for the large amount of mosfet fanboys, but that's another matter)
Re:FP! by jazman_777 · 2002-10-02 02:41 · Score: 3, Funny

however I do feel they are still a Linux distrobution
I feel reassured. Thank you.

--
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Re:FP! by fault0 · 2002-10-02 04:24 · Score: 2

> And what gives *you* more credibility than Mosfet?

I'm not making blanket comments about a distro that I'm not using.

> He contributes things to Open Source, do you?

Yep.
Re:FP! by feed_me_cereal · 2002-10-02 06:26 · Score: 2

But also let us have our opinion about it. We are free to say it.

mmm-hmm, letsee, here's the message you're replying to:

Let them have what ever interface they want. This is Linux. You are free to change it.

So, what part of this message is saying you aren't free to offer your opinion, exactly? I assume you posted your reply for fear of having this freedom stifled, since freedom of speech/opinion is typically thought of as implicit around here. It seems to me that all he is doing is offering his opinion. Is he free to do that?

--
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson
Re:FP! by Wdomburg · 2002-10-02 06:28 · Score: 2

> And what gives *you* more credibility than
> Mosfet? He contributes things to Open Source, do
> you?

Well, he didn't make stupid statements like:

The other problem is switching the default
applications for things like the web browser and
email client from their KDE implementations to
Gnome apps.

The three applications they changed defaults to are Mozilla (not a Gnome app), OpenOffice (also not a Gnome app), and Evolution (okay, so one Gnome app).

He also didn't include a jab at Red Hat's filesystem layout when they are fully LSB and FHS compliant.

Matt
Re:FP! by ejasons · 2002-10-02 07:49 · Score: 2, Interesting

He also didn't include a jab at Red Hat's filesystem layout when they are fully LSB and FHS compliant.

Well, I think that's open to interpretation. The FHS specifies that "/usr" is for everything that is part of the "base OS install" (or something like that). I'm skeptical that "tux" can be considered as part of the base OS.

Regardless of whether they are right or wrong, I despise having thousands of files in /usr. Is there any distribution who thinks that there may be a better way? I'm getting tired of having to recompile gnome and KDE to be more sane (especially when RedHat's source RPMs often make it difficult to target anything other than /usr).

I laugh when people mention Windows' "DLL hell", when most Linux distributions do the equivalent of putting everything into C:\WINDOWS.

Better List of Mirrors by sheckard · 2002-10-02 01:13 · Score: 5, Informative

Here is a list of mirrors known to have RH 8.0 ready:

http://freshrpms.net/mirrors/psyche.html

Re:Better List of Mirrors by Jeremiah+Cornelius · 2002-10-02 04:32 · Score: 2

I've been running NULL for a couple of weeks.
Remembered this morning the 8.0 release was today, and did a quick peek online, before deciding that trying to FTP new .iso images would be a time-wasting exercise in frustration - especially in the midst of studies.
I made a jump over to rpmfind.net, to look for an apt-get package, and try my luck this way.
BINGO!
The first hit is a new package, dated yesterday, from FreshRPMs.net.
apt-0.5.4cnc7-fr1
RPM for i386 This includes an /etc/apt/sources.list file for RedHat 8.0.
More on this HERE...

--
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."

Whatever floats your boat by ck42 · 2002-10-02 01:13 · Score: 3, Interesting

If it gets more people using Linux....who cares if it looks like a pink elephant.

Get it right by browser_war_pow · 2002-10-02 01:13 · Score: 5, Informative

Null was the beta, bluecurve is the new theme

Re:Get it right by _|()|\| · 2002-10-02 01:27 · Score: 3, Interesting

And Red Hat code names are usually related to each other, as chronicled here: valhalla -> limbo -> null -> psyche.

Look like windows? by pudge_lightyear · 2002-10-02 01:14 · Score: 5, Insightful

It seems to me that looking like windows, while not sharing the ease of use of windows isn't exactly what's going to win customers over. That's only half (or less) of the battle. Maybe if this post read...looks and functions like windows xp (which it couldn't have said in good faith), that would be something.

--

Certainly every man at his best state is but vapor

Re:Look like windows? by meisenst · 2002-10-02 01:59 · Score: 5, Insightful

I installed RH 8 (typing this using it right now) this morning. It looks like Windows, feels like Windows, and yet has the power and structure of Linux under it, even more invisible than before.

This is -exactly- what will win customers over, because customers aren't people like me and (potentially) you; customers are people like my boss, his boss, and so on up the line, that look at Linux as a cheap server alternative when we don't want to buy Windows 2000 Server. We, on the other hand, are Linux geeks, who will use Linux and most likely turn off the looks-like-Windows part anyway. =)

I could probably install RH8 on desktops where I work and use it as an alternative to Windows with a minor change or two (the ability to browse SMB shares would be a must). So, in my view, looking and feeling like Windows is critical, because people don't want to have to learn new tricks when they can just as easily buy Windows.

meisenst

--
Green's Law of Debate: Anything is possible if you don't know what you're talking about.
Re:Look like windows? by __past__ · 2002-10-02 02:12 · Score: 2

It looks like Windows, feels like Windows, and yet has the power and structure of Linux under it, even more invisible than before.

This is -exactly- what will win customers over,

Exactly. Windows users aren't used to power and structure, so it's best to hide it.

--
Programming can be fun again. Film at 11.
Re:Look like windows? by ealar+dlanvuli · 2002-10-02 02:17 · Score: 2

Nothing is intuitive.

Word isn't intuitive, if it was they wouldn't need a god damned helper app to explain everything you can do.

Windows 95 interface isn't intuitive, it's just been on every pc for 8 years. I was actually confused the first time I sat down at one.

Intuitive is over rated way to much, how functional something is normally is a direct relation to how "easy to pick up" it is.

--
I live in a giant bucket.
Re:Look like windows? by mithras+the+prophet · 2002-10-02 02:23 · Score: 2, Interesting

Looking like the Mac, but not sharing the ease of use of the Mac, was exactly Microsoft's strategy for years.

Eventually it paid off - sometime around Windows 98 most people decided that Windows was "good enough", even exceeding the Mac in some areas. Being "good enough", plus running on cheaper hardware (and a dash of network effect and anticompetitive behavior) sealed Windows' victory.

So, perhaps becoming "good enough", and cheaper, will seal Linux's victory. Time will tell whether Linus should add a dash of the network effect and anticompetitive behavior. ;-)

--
four nine eighteen twenty-7 thirty-nine forty-7 fiftyeight sixty-nine seventy-9 eighty-8 one-hundred-and-nine one-twenty
Re:Look like windows? by fault0 · 2002-10-02 02:37 · Score: 2

It doesn't look or feel like WindowsXP. It feels much more like Windows2000 or 98.

Of course, many people still use Windows2k, so this might not be a bad thing.
Re:Look like windows? by DustMagnet · 2002-10-02 03:09 · Score: 2

Time will tell whether Linus should add a dash of the network effect and anticompetitive behavior. ;-)
Yea, it's to early for anticompetitive behavior. RedHat's focusing on embrace and extend for now.

--
'SBEMAIL!' is better than a goat!!
Re:Look like windows? by tomhudson · 2002-10-02 03:12 · Score: 2, Flamebait

Windows 95 interface isn't intuitive</quote>
Reminds me of when I first saw the "start" button. Why would anyone click on the "start" button when the box is already running? Counter-intuitive - unless you're a woman - they seem to like trying to start cars that are already running (cue sound of gears grinding).
Re:Look like windows? by foobar104 · 2002-10-02 03:19 · Score: 5, Insightful

In most contexts I agree with you; the old saying goes something like, "The nipple is intuitive. Everything else must be learned."

But "intuitive" can also mean "simple enough to be obvious." My girlfriend uses iPhoto to download photos from her digital camera, color-correct them, crop them, post them to the web, and order prints of the ones she really likes. She has never been taught how to do these things. She's not a computer expert. She just sat down, clicked the iPhoto icon in the dock, and figured it out. That is how I define intuitive.

Intuitive is over rated way to much, how functional something is normally is a direct relation to how "easy to pick up" it is.

Sometimes. But it doesn't have to be. Not by a long shot.
Re:Look like windows? by Deagol · 2002-10-02 03:35 · Score: 5, Informative

the ability to browse SMB shares would be a must
Launch Konqueror. Type in the URL: "smb://smbserver/share".

--
Method of processing duck feet
Re:Look like windows? by iabervon · 2002-10-02 04:16 · Score: 2

Windows is the industry standard for a good user interface by MicroSoft fiat, not by actually being usable. So I can understand developers wanting to break away from it (although they haven't historically put enough thought into the interface they end up using).

On the other hand, regardless of the reason, Windows is the industry standard for a good user interface. But what matters really is the function; it would be better, in my opinion, to have the ability to use a UI that doesn't look much like Windows, but has the same functionality. Icons which are different drawings of the same things have the same uses, there are different colors and patterns, and so forth, but following the same instructions will give you the same result whenever possible.

Of course, the next step is to be able to switch each part individually away from the Windows feel, because then people can learn each day to do one more thing efficiently.

Either that, or use a totally different user interface based on a principled design and promise the users that, if they use your software instead of MS software, they'll never have to learn another UI again after this one.

In any case, there's no advantage to superficial similarity to Windows these days; it's not like you have to hide the fact that you're using Linux from your boss, and it will only confuse people who have to use two operating systems that work differently if there aren't visual cues as to which one something is.
Re:Look like windows? by evilpenguin · 2002-10-02 04:18 · Score: 2

Of course, the reason could be that you're wrong. Maybe they are really nice and you're paranoid.

I think the previous poster was correct. The only intuitive interface is the nipple. All else is learned. (I know this is a famous quote. Who said it and how did he/she phrase it exactly? Anyone remember?).

We are really talking about the definition of "intuitive interface," a noun phrase, not the defintion of the adjective "intuitive."
Re:Look like windows? by Suidae · 2002-10-02 05:22 · Score: 2

Kan it do the 'network neighborhood' (My network places, whatever) thing? So I don't have to know the names of machines that have shares available?
Re:Look like windows? by bonius_rex · 2002-10-02 05:35 · Score: 2

the smb://server/share works in nautilus, too.
At least it does for me on RH 7.3
Re:Look like windows? by atrus · 2002-10-02 05:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

iPhoto is a wonderful application for its rather small feature set. Sure, I would like better photo editing controls in it, but I guess thats the price of pure simplicity. iMovie is similar. While it has a higher learning curve than iPhoto (non-linear video editing is not exactly well known), I've seen people go from randomly clicking around the Dog Wash movie to importing and editing their own video footage in the span of a few hours. Its great for a high school video class, where little instruction has to be given on the editing system, so more time can be spent on filmmaking techniques, camera movements, and the like. Way to go Apple :)
Re:Look like windows? by Sj0 · 2002-10-02 07:09 · Score: 2

I tried the Windows XP IceWM theme. Looks like XP, but I don't really like how XP looks...

--
It's been a long time.
Re:Look like windows? by io333 · 2002-10-02 11:38 · Score: 2

The only things that always picks up SMB shares without tweaking (i.e., you JUST RUN IT AND IT FINDS THEM) is komba2

It used to come with Mandrake until 8.2 but they took it out for 9.0 (WHY??@@@@1!!!!) . It works with every linxus distro including Gentoo.

The way it works it it just mounts all the shares it finds as a directory (e.g., /home/komba/shares).

It has a nice GUI and has always been completely bug free for me, even though it's only at like 0.7 stable version.

Just make sure that samba is running in the backround first before you run it.

Yay... by Coplan · 2002-10-02 01:14 · Score: 5, Informative

The interface isn't nearly as hacked as people think it is. I think Redhat took a step in the right direction. As much as some geeks might flame that, I think its necessary for the community.

Realistically though, they didn't hack both Gnome and KDE together, they just sorta made them "LOOK" similar. This is essential, as some people use both KDE and Gnome programs regardless of which interface they use.

It's worth a try for you redhat and mandrake users. Debian and Slackware users will probably dislike what they've done.

Re:Yay... by Your_Mom · 2002-10-02 01:32 · Score: 3, Interesting

Slackware users will probably dislike what they've done.
Hi, Slackware Zealot here. Just to prove you wrong, I like the idea of a nice perty interface. I think it is needed. However, I won't use it. I am downloading it for one of my roomates who wants to try Linux though, I think this is a real nice starting point for most users.
That being said, I have one complaint. FIVE fscking-disks?! Hello!?!? Some people still are too cheap to buy stuff! Hell Slack is just recently toying with the idea for possibly going to 2, and even they postponed it for another release. Sheesh!

--
Objects in the blog are closer then they ap
Re:Yay... by garcia · 2002-10-02 01:37 · Score: 3, Interesting

as an ex-Slackware, ex-RedHat, and current Debian user I don't care what they have done.

I would dump KDE and/or GNOME and run what I have run since however many years ago.

While I think that it looks nice (except for PACKED menus) for people that want that sort of thing, Linux is still great b/c we can run whatever the hell we like instead of whatever the default is.

I have tried Gnone and KDE once before each. I wasn't impressed w/the speed of the UI on this machine. I suppose once I get older and less annoyed with attempts to make Linux more of a desktop OS and I become lazy and want to stop having to move files with commands I will switch.

Until then, if I were to upgrade to a distribution that offered this sort of UI, I would disable it and go back to what I have been used to.

Ahh, the wonders of freedom! Just my worthless .02 for today.
Re:Yay... by N3WBI3 · 2002-10-02 01:45 · Score: 2

I have to agree with this. If you need 5 disks youre putting way too much on the base install. Im not a person who thinks that you should be leet and start with a kernel floppy. But whay would you need five disks?
Give them the OS, the GUI, and a brower with a ton of links to other stuff..

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Re:Yay... by runlvl0 · 2002-10-02 01:50 · Score: 4, Informative

Although Red Hat didn't label them as such, disks 1-3 are the install disks, and 4-5 are the SRPMS. (I just downloaded all 5 CDs last night - GRR! AAARGH!)

--

Carthago delenda est!
Re:Yay... by BluBrick · 2002-10-02 02:06 · Score: 5, Funny

That being said, I have one complaint. FIVE fscking-disks?! Hello!?!? Some people still are too cheap to buy stuff!

Aww, c'mon now! Five disks isn't that bad. That's only a little over 7 meg. I remember when a full Slack distro was over 30 disks...

What? What's that you say? Five what ?

--
Ahh - My eye!
The doctor said I'm not supposed to get Slashdot in it!
Re:Yay... by gorilla · 2002-10-02 02:07 · Score: 2

Redhat doesn't include just the base install, but a whole pile of optional stuff too.
Re:Yay... by HiThere · 2002-10-02 03:05 · Score: 2

Realistically though, they didn't hack both Gnome and KDE together, they just sorta made them "LOOK" similar. This is essential, as some people use both KDE and Gnome programs regardless of which interface they use.

Others have said this, and it boggles my mind. I always purposely change my KDE and Gnome desktops to be *LESS* similar. (Hasn't really been a problem so far.. even the defaults are different.) I prefer that it be obvious which desktop I'm currently using, as some of the controls and actions differ.

Why would anyone *want* them to look the same?

--

I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Re:Yay... by wwwojtek · 2002-10-02 03:23 · Score: 2, Insightful

That being said, I have one complaint. FIVE fscking-disks?!

The more discs there are, the less likely people are to download it and the more likely they are to buy the box. RedHat can make some money this way. You see, they are a corporation and they are supposed to make profit.
Re:Yay... by JoeBuck · 2002-10-02 04:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

At least they are following the GPL. A distressing number of people are distributing Linux and GNU binaries without worrying about their obligation to either provide matching source at the same time, or to include a written offer, good for three years, to provide source later.
Re:Yay... by analog_line · 2002-10-02 04:45 · Score: 2

Well, I'm a Slackware user that likes what they've done, but it's really not for me. I'm running Slackware because it makes me learn more of the guts of the OS, whereas RedHat/Mandrake/SuSE have tools that let me get off easier than I want to. However, if I had a second x86 machine, I'd be putting RedHat 8.0 on it to at least try it out. Anyone who takes a risk to standardize the Linux desktop deserves support. Red Hat won't ever be the only Linux distribution, so I've got no problem with it. If it gets a few more people using Linux, it's all good.
Re:Yay... by timster · 2002-10-02 11:23 · Score: 2

Note everyone, that the MSDN subscription doesn't include license to use ANY of the products included for anything other than compatibility testing. If you're going to buy an MSDN subscription then illegally use the software in it, then you may as well just download warez.

--
I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
Re:Yay... by einhverfr · 2002-10-02 12:19 · Score: 3, Funny

That being said, I have one complaint. FIVE fscking-disks?! Hello!?!? Some people still are too cheap to buy stuff! Hell Slack is just recently toying with the idea for possibly going to 2, and even they postponed it for another release. Sheesh!

Actually, the CDROM's run an ISO9660 filesystem, and both the filesystem and media are read-only. fsck will do you no good, so save it for your hard drive...

--

LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP

Dammit! by FreeLinux · 2002-10-02 01:15 · Score: 4, Funny

The mirrors have been either jammed or not updated since Monday. Now Slashdot posts links on the frontpage. I'll never be able to get the ISOs.

Re:Dammit! by Coplan · 2002-10-02 01:18 · Score: 2

I'm just waiting for CheapBytes to release their burned ISOs.
We don't need those damn manuals.
And have you ever tried to download the ISOs with a 56k. I'm not doing that again?
Re:Dammit! by warpSpeed · 2002-10-02 01:44 · Score: 2

Spend $60 bucks, buy a support contact, and get access to RedHats download servers. As an added bonus the money supports RedHat directly. I use thier product so I do not mind paying a little for thier support.
I had all three iso disc images downloaded Monday.
Re:Dammit! by 0x0d0a · 2002-10-02 01:51 · Score: 3, Informative

Rsync might have let you get the "corrupted" bits without downloading the whole thing again.

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May we never see th
Re:Dammit! by NewbieSpaz · 2002-10-02 02:32 · Score: 2

This is going to sound like a joke at first, but AOL has a fast mirror that doesn't seem to get bogged down. It's here if you want to try it: ftp://redhat.newaol.com/

Enjoy.

--
------
Random, useless fact: I type in startx entirely with my left hand.
Re:Dammit! by Michael+Wardle · 2002-10-02 09:58 · Score: 2

And have you ever tried to download the ISOs with a 56k.

Yes, and that's what I'm currently doing, as broadband is not available in my area. It takes me on average three days to download one CD image, which makes you wonder whether five CDs (or at least the three install CDs) are really necessary.

Speed improvments by Wally_Hntr · 2002-10-02 01:16 · Score: 2, Interesting

One thing I've noticed is that it doesn't take a minute to open Nautilus anymore. Much appreciated change. Overall, it looks more polished than previous releases. (much easier for mom to use)

Re:Speed improvments by Michael+Wardle · 2002-10-02 09:53 · Score: 2

Nautilus 2 (which comes with GNOME 2 as used in Red Hat 8) is much faster than Nautilus 1 (which comes with GNOME 1.4 as used in Red Hat 7). In case you didn't know, it's also Nautilus that is used to draw desktop icons by default in GNOME 2, so some of Nautilus and its libraries will probably be preloaded when you go to open Nautilus as a file manager.

According to the Nautilus project page, Nautilus also includes support for NNTP (news), which seems to contradict its performance goals.

yes by __aahlyu4518 · 2002-10-02 01:17 · Score: 3, Funny

"So what's the verdict on Null or Bluecurve or whatever it's called? Good idea, bad idea? "

Yes... one of those 2. Or maybe something in between.

null or bluecurve by sethadam1 · 2002-10-02 01:17 · Score: 5, Informative

I cannot even believe this is Slashdot anymore!

- The release is called Psyche.
- The final beta was called (null), with parens, not "null."
- The default theme, authored by Red Hat, is called Blue Curve. Blue Curve is offered in both Red Hat stock KDE 3 or Gnome 2.
- The release date was 9-30. Is this is a news site or what?

Re:null or bluecurve by blazerw11 · 2002-10-02 01:35 · Score: 2

Some quotes:
So what's the verdict on Null or Bluecurve or whatever it's called? - It may not be good humor, but this _is_ an _attempt_ at humor. A lot of us caught onto that.

The release date was 9-30. Is this is a news site or what? - If it's announced on the day of the release, the flames fly about waiting 'til it propagates to all of the mirrors.

--
A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. -- William James
Re:null or bluecurve by Hobophile · 2002-10-02 02:04 · Score: 5, Insightful

I cannot even believe this is Slashdot anymore!
How exactly is the behavior you are complaining about -- inaccuracies in headline and submitter comments and delayed coverage of old news -- atypical for Slashdot? One might argue that they are very much old hat for regular readers.
More to the point, you're wrong about many of the 'issues' you raise. Point two, that it is called (null) instead of null, is just being pedantic, and I am quite skeptical regarding its accuracy.
If one were inclined to pick nits, one might observe that the theme is Bluecurve, not "Blue Curve", but I'm feeling generous and so I'll let it pass.
And finally, in case you missed it, there was a story about Red Hat 8.0 on Monday, when it was released. I have no idea why there's another one, but the story was reported as news when it actually was news, and here it is again.
One of the joys of Slashdot is that over the days and months and years, you see familiar stories reappear and can recapture the joy you felt when reading them initially. The main page is like an endless parade of friendly faces, each one smiling and saying, "It's been a while. Take a break, read me again, let's catch up."
I have always believed that this happens because the editors firmly believe, like Faulkner before them, that there are truly no new stories. In the vast span of human existence, tales of greed and altruism, life and death, nobility and depravity, wonder and Red Hat point releases, have all been played out countless times in the same familiar manner. Only the faces change. To my mind this is a very humanistic sentiment, and I cherish those editors who recognize this fundamental truth of our existence.
Kudos to you, Slashdot staff!
Re:null or bluecurve by schlach · 2002-10-02 03:30 · Score: 2

I have always believed that this happens because the editors firmly believe, like Faulkner before them, that there are truly no new stories. In the vast span of human existence, tales of greed and altruism, life and death, nobility and depravity, wonder and Red Hat point releases, have all been played out countless times in the same familiar manner. Only the faces change. To my mind this is a very humanistic sentiment, and I cherish those editors who recognize this fundamental truth of our existence.

*clap* *clap* *clap*

(sorry, no mod points =)
Re:null or bluecurve by JoeBuck · 2002-10-02 04:45 · Score: 2

Thanks to Slashdot for holding off for a day to allow the distro to propagate to the mirrors. In the past, this has been a problem: early announcements on Slashdot of a package everyone wants to download kills the primary site before all the mirrors get it.

Comment removed by account_deleted · 2002-10-02 01:17 · Score: 5, Informative

Comment removed based on user account deletion

There's two questions there by ajs · 2002-10-02 01:18 · Score: 5, Insightful

The first question is: is unifying desktops via theming a good idea. The answer is an emphatic yes, but with the proviso that it's a damn hard thing to do well, and you have to deal with the egos of everyone involved (including your own).

The second question is: did Red Hat pull it off well. I think we will have to wait a few months to guage how successful it has been. Ximian's Gnome2-based system will almost certianly be out soon, and I think a good measure of how usable Red Hat's desktop is will be how many people plunk Ximian down over it.

Re:There's two questions there by fault0 · 2002-10-02 02:58 · Score: 2

You should have written:

The second question is: did Red Hat pull it off well. I think we will have to wait a few months to guage how successful it has been. Ximian's Gnome2-based system will almost certianly be out soon, and I think a good measure of how usable Red Hat's GNOME desktop is will be how many people plunk Ximian GNOME down over it.

It'll prove nothing about if unifying the two was a good idea or not.
Re:There's two questions there by ajs · 2002-10-02 05:49 · Score: 2

It'll prove nothing about if unifying the two was a good idea or not.

What two? Two what?

I never intended to draw a distinction between any two things in my comment. Red Hat has not unified two of anything. They have unified the Red Hat desktop. Ximian is, AFAIK, the most popular desktop that people seek out to lay over Red Hat's default installation as of 7.3, so the question becomes: will that continue, or will Bluecurve's look&feel be compelling enough that people stick with it.

GNOME does not enter the picture, other than the side-point that Ximian is gnome-based.
Re:There's two questions there by ajs · 2002-10-02 05:53 · Score: 2

Ximian, Red Hat, KDE, Gnome, Bluecurve.... what do all of these terms have in common?

They're not window managers. Please, do not confuse integrated desktop systems (KDE, Gnome), desktop distributions (Ximian) and themes (Bluecurve, Ximian North) with window managers (metacity, kwm, sawfish, windowmaker, twm, etc).
Re:There's two questions there by fault0 · 2002-10-02 06:13 · Score: 2

I was just trying to point out that most people who prefer KDE to GNOME usually don't replace the RH GNOME with Ximian GNOME.

Ximian, last time I checked, only makes Ximian GNOME, not Ximian KDE. In order to compete with Redhat's bluecurve approach, in order to see if it was successful, bluecurve (both GNOME and KDE), would have to be replaced with a Ximian solution that replaces both GNOME and KDE in Redhat.
Re:There's two questions there by ajs · 2002-10-02 08:14 · Score: 2

I wasn't concerned with what KDE folks do. Don't take that the wrong way, I'm not concerned with what Gnome folks do, or Xm (sp?) or any other desktop.

This is going to be hard for the community to swallow, and in the end it will cause a lot of die-hard people to get very angry. But, the bottom line is: there will be no Gnome or KDE desktops in 5 years. There will be Gnome and KDE applications and libraries, but the desktop is getting more and more abstracted out of the control of the various software platforms on which desktops are built.

Once that happens, I'll be very interested in finding out how desktop software projects respond. Clearly interoperation between applications that rely on different back-ends will become more and more of an issue. I know that the "camps" have been saying that "cut-n-paste is enough" for a long time, but that toon will have to change if, e.g., KMail wants to take advantage of evolution's user-base or Mozilla starts getting increasing numbers of bugs filed against failure to use Galeon, Konq or lynx's bookmarks.

Heck, free operating systems may eventually be dragged, kicking and screaming into the world of well-integrated software :-)
Re:There's two questions there by fault0 · 2002-10-03 02:17 · Score: 2

> But, the bottom line is: there will be no Gnome or KDE desktops in 5 years.

I agree that in 5 years, this will hopefully happen. However, it's not true right now, so I think my point still stands.

Isn't this two days old? by Raleel · 2002-10-02 01:19 · Score: 2

You know, I run a mirror for redhat, and it's been available for 2 days. Why are we just now discussing this?

--
-- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --

Re:Isn't this two days old? by weave · 2002-10-02 01:23 · Score: 5, Insightful

Poor slashdot. If they break a new release story right away they get flamed for causing people to slam the vendor's ftp site before the mirrors have a chance to get it, if they wait a few days and allow mirrors to get updated first, they get flamed for posting a story which is "old news."
Re:Isn't this two days old? by Jose · 2002-10-02 01:26 · Score: 2

It used to be that Slashdot would post new release info as soon as some popular package came out, sometimes before the mirrors got updated, everyone bitched. Now they wait a bit, people bitch. yeah, sure they still posted a direct link to redhat's ftp site, but at least they posted a link to where the mirrors are :)

--
The basic sleazeware produced in a drunken fury by a bunch of UCBerkeley grad students was still the core of BIND. --PV
Re:Isn't this two days old? by blazerw11 · 2002-10-02 01:38 · Score: 2

Why are we just now discussing this?

/. is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Luckily for me, the were damned that they didn't, so I was able to download it yesterday.

--
A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. -- William James
Re:Isn't this two days old? by pjrc · 2002-10-02 03:04 · Score: 2

A few months ago I had casually mentioned in a conversation with a co-worker something regarding an interesting comment here on slashdot. He's one of those many who _sometimes_ look at the main page but doesn't both with the comments. His opinion of the comments was something like:
They rip on everything... there was even a story about Linus and they ripped on him too.
Now I know that _occasionally_ there's a few really informed comments at +4 and +5.... I just wanted to share this little (verbal) comment to put slashdot into the perspective of the "average user" who doesn't bother with the comments.... for all those who've taken the trouble to read enough to find this among the sea of other comments.

--
PJRC: Electronic Projects, 8051 Microcontroller Tools

Distribution of resources by nesneros · 2002-10-02 01:19 · Score: 2

I only have a problem with fancy design updates when they take precedence over fixing problems that are more important to me. Of course, my problems (like the lack of robustness in mounting smb shares), aren't everyone else's, so maybe they made the right decision.

Personally, look-and-feel is pretty low on my priorities list, but it is really nice to have someone say "what is that you're using? It looks really cool".

--
Some men spend their entire lives trying to kill themselves for having been born. --Ross MacDonald

Re:Distribution of resources by BaronVonDuvet · 2002-10-02 01:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

Exactly. If they want more 'average' home PC users having Linux then it will probably come from it looking nice. Micro$oft has a very poor reputation with reliability and people tend to regard Linux has a good reputation. Now if we could get a bit more software off the shelf we'd be laughing......

RH 8 on nvidia? by (H)elix1 · 2002-10-02 01:19 · Score: 3, Interesting

Anyone know if the nvidia chipsets are supported out of the box, or is it still a post install patch with the laptop version?

--
+++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU

Re:RH 8 on nvidia? by CvD · 2002-10-02 01:25 · Score: 4, Informative

I believe that because of NVidia licensing you have to get the NVIDIA drivers from NVidia themselves. They're binary drivers but they're well documented. The RPMs for 8.0 aren't there yet, but you can build the drivers from source RPMs which are on that page too.

Here's their latest release

Enjoy!

Costyn.

--
The Official Steve Ballmer Webpage
Re:RH 8 on nvidia? by drudd · 2002-10-02 01:32 · Score: 2

My GeForce 2 was supported enough to run the graphical install. I chose not to configure X during the install, and instead booted into a command prompt, downloaded the Nvidia src rpm's and installed them. Then I configured X, changed my runlevel to 5, and X popped right up.

The whole procedure took less than 15 minutes.

Check the Nvidia linux drivers forum, there's often good information there on installing the driver and configuring X.

Doug

--
Venn ist das nurnstuck git und Slotermeyer? Ya! Beigerhund das oder die Flipperwaldt gersput!
Re:RH 8 on nvidia? by troc · 2002-10-02 02:42 · Score: 4, Insightful

And that's why Linux isn't more popular with Mr Average ;)

Troc

--
Troc's dubious podcast and blog: http://www.trocnet.net
Re:RH 8 on nvidia? by foobar104 · 2002-10-02 03:14 · Score: 2

I'm as big a critic of Linux usability as anybody, but in all fairness, have you ever tried recompiling your kernel under Windows XP? If it were even possible, it would be about as complex.

The problem with Linux isn't that recompiling your kernel is a hard and complex process. It's that recompiling your kernel is sometimes necessary. That's what they have to fix before Linux can be popular with Mr. Average.
Re:RH 8 on nvidia? by Papineau · 2002-10-02 06:22 · Score: 2

In the release notes of RH 8.0:

All kernel modules included in Red Hat Linux 8.0 are compiled with GCC 3.2; however, when using third-party modules it is important to make sure that every module and its dependent objects, in their entirety, is compiled with GCC 3.2. The modutils programs insmod and modprobe have rudimentary checks for this and will prevent loading of modules in the case of compiler version mismatches; these modules can be forced to load via the -f parameter.

I don't know which compiler NVidia used for their module. But from what I understand from the excerpt above, it will probably not work. Somebody tried it already? You can probably bet that an updated NVidia module will be out shortly with support for RH 8.0.
Re:RH 8 on nvidia? by Sj0 · 2002-10-02 07:55 · Score: 2

If you think that was tough, you should see the Windows Registry.

People who claim they aren't "computer people" will always go to someone like us to get something done. Software installation could be as easy as BeOS, and they still would.

--
It's been a long time.
Re:RH 8 on nvidia? by IamTheRealMike · 2002-10-02 09:03 · Score: 2

And that's why Linux isn't more popular with Mr Average ;)
Come on, be fair. For those who can't see the above post, it's a list of commands to type to install the nVidia drivers or something.
If nVidia hadn't released their drivers for the latest update of Windows, what could you do? Nothing. You'd have to wait. My goodness, you can wait with Linux too and get them in a nice easy RPM.... but you don't have to.
I see you have a mac.com account. For you it's simple. When something new comes, you must wait for Apple to do it for you, then you must usually pay for it too. Give the guys above a break, they were just swapping tips because they like the bleeding edge, you're not forced to be like they are anymore.
Re:RH 8 on nvidia? by MobyTurbo · 2002-10-02 11:31 · Score: 2

You may have to download the nVidia driver from an nVidia ftp server, but that doesn't mean that it can't be done from within a fancy GUI upgrade utility. SuSE's YOU (YaST Online Update) has been offering this for a while quite transpantly, although it's usually after installation.
Re:RH 8 on nvidia? by foobar104 · 2002-10-02 11:54 · Score: 2

:sigh: This is the twenty-first fucking century. You shouldn't need to compile anything. Compiling isn't a normal computer activity for most people.

When we get to the point where you can do everything that's physically possible with a Linux system without ever compiling anything, call me. Until then, I'm sticking with OS X.
Re:RH 8 on nvidia? by troc · 2002-10-02 18:37 · Score: 2

yes I happen to have a mac.com address. However I am also an old-fashioned UNIX hacker :)

so I quite happily compile and install all sorts of crap on my OS X system (and others)

I wasn't whinging that I didn't understand, or that I was turned off from Linux because of the odd compile here and there. I was simply pointing out that the average computer user wants things to work - they can just about handle (semi)automatic downloads and can usually cope with hand-hlding install apps BUT they are not happy with kernel hacking....... Imagine the support problems at windows if Nvidia had something similar for their driver installs.

Until Linux is as easy to install, configure and maintain as Windows (yes yes I know windows registry sucks - and I know you need to reinstall the OS every Friday the thirteenth or when a goat eats your hat but the average users just chucks in a cd and it's done) - or ideally Mac OS, Linux will not be a true desktop OS.

By that I mean the one your Granny would choose to use. (yes yes I know YOUR granny is a Linux Geek but :)

Troc

--
Troc's dubious podcast and blog: http://www.trocnet.net
Re:RH 8 on nvidia? by IamTheRealMike · 2002-10-02 19:48 · Score: 2

Well my point was that you don't have to do any kernel hacking, if you're willing to wait a few weeks. I have the nVidia drivers, and didn't have to compile anything. The SuSE setup just gave me instructions for how to download the drivers, I clicked on the RPM and it went ahead and installed. The whole thing was entirely graphical if I remember rightly. I had to reboot, but apart from that no problems. The days when kernel hacking was needed are over (thankfully)
Re:RH 8 on nvidia? by odaiwai · 2002-10-03 02:35 · Score: 2

Except that you only have to do this if you want to recompile the kernel, not something mr average is going to do.

As for Grub - the install handles that - you only need to learn the config file if you want to do something fancy. It's far easier than LILO as well.

dave

And I had a 2 days head start too :( by Xpilot · 2002-10-02 01:20 · Score: 2

And it's still not done downloading the first CD.

I tried out Null when it was released, and it does feel XP-ish, only without the horrid default color scheme of XP ;)

Ximian Evolution has been out for quite a while, and it's included in most major distros, not just RH. I use Evolution (came with Slack 8.1) for my daily email.

--
"Backups are for wimps. Real men upload their data to an FTP site and have everyone else mirror it." -- Linus Torvalds

Re:And I had a 2 days head start too :( by Majix · 2002-10-02 01:36 · Score: 3, Informative

Note that CD 4 and 5 are source packages only and you probably don't need them. Also, CD 3 holds most of the server stuff (and I think KDE), so if you do a recommended Workstation setup you will only be asked for CD 1 and 2.
Re:And I had a 2 days head start too :( by cybrthng · 2002-10-02 01:45 · Score: 2

I tried out Null when it was released, and it does feel XP-ish, only without the horrid default color scheme of XP ;)

I dunno about you, but the default XP theme is visually asthetic to use. Easy to read, easy to distinguish icons/visual alerts and "simple".

Especially when you move into LCD monitors and laptops. I have yet to see a linux desktop (downloading 8.0 to see if it helps) that without TONS i mean TONS of engineering and time spent on it look visually "asthetic" and not blocky or chunky on an LCD or Laptop monitor.

I run multiple LCD displays, si'm fanaticle about how my expensive equipment works.

ofcourse, everyone has there own opinion, but i thought i'd rebute the generalization that "xp sucks"
Re:And I had a 2 days head start too :( by Xpilot · 2002-10-02 04:22 · Score: 2

I dunno about you, but the default XP theme is visually asthetic to use. Easy to read, easy to distinguish icons/visual alerts and "simple".

Well, to each his own. I do think putting all the primary colors on the screen was a bad idea though (blue background, green start bar, red buttons). I prefer shades of grey (as in win98) as the main color of all the window elements. It's not as intrusive as bright blue.

--
"Backups are for wimps. Real men upload their data to an FTP site and have everyone else mirror it." -- Linus Torvalds

Re:F**ck redhat by cygnusx197 · 2002-10-02 01:20 · Score: 3, Insightful

Don't be such a freak. Nobody's forcing you to register it.

from the RH website... by path_man · 2002-10-02 01:20 · Score: 2, Funny

Introducing Red Hat Linux 8.0, a user-friendly Linux operating system.

OK but does it pass the Grandma test? I can just hear myself now, "OK Grandma, type vee-eye "frontslash" etc/hosts... no wait, frontslash... no, not the one above the RETURN key... wait, yours is called the ENTER key?" Still, the "dumbing down" of the interface all in all is a great step in the right direction to capturing new mindshare.

--
The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. -- Calvin & Hobbes

Re:from the RH website... by ealar+dlanvuli · 2002-10-02 02:25 · Score: 2

Question:

What exactly does your grandma need to be editing /etc/hosts for?

Is she getting to many popup adds while browsing pr0n or something? Seriously, grandma's don't do anything with /etc/hosts (equiv) on windows, why should they even know it is even possible in linux.

--
I live in a giant bucket.
Re:from the RH website... by Etcetera · 2002-10-02 05:24 · Score: 2

Why the hell would you make your Grandma use vi?! At least let the non-nerds use Pico.

--
Hire a Linux system administrator, systems engineer,

Re:Rethat is for weenies by __aahlyu4518 · 2002-10-02 01:20 · Score: 5, Funny

"Real men use Debian"

That's right... All 3 of 'em do !

If I know anything about redhat by jandrese · 2002-10-02 01:20 · Score: 2

Those mirrors will be useless for at least a week. RH has the worst set of mirrors I've ever encountered. Months after a major release it is still difficult to find a mirror that is working, has the latest files, and not stuffed to the gills with downloaders. Even when you get on a mirror it is dog slow and times out frequently. Generally you are better off poking around university FTP sites (especially the CS department) looking for someone hosting a local mirror than you are trying to fight for the 100 aggregate download slots available on the official mirrors.

--

I read the internet for the articles.

Re:If I know anything about redhat by Hitokage_Nishino · 2002-10-02 02:33 · Score: 2

I got the first 3 ISOs within 24 hours of its release, and discs 4 and 5 are nothing but SRPMS. Tip: European mirrors are your friends.
Re:If I know anything about redhat by be-fan · 2002-10-02 05:50 · Score: 2

He he. Living at one of the mirrors (ftp-linux.cc.gatech.edu) does have its advantages. LAN speeds all the way. To bad, I'd never come near a RedHat distro. But they've got Gentoo mirrored here too, so I'm happy.

--
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...

Read Slashdot much? by Otter · 2002-10-02 01:20 · Score: 2

Red Hat is out with a new release, Red Hat 8.0. Looks like Red Hat is moving towards the windows XP style using its new Bluecurve graphical interface (the new default email client 'Ximian Evolution' looks a lot like MS Outlook).

The new Red Hat will be 8.0? New desktop theme? Wow, thanks for letting us know! ;-)

Seriously, though, is there something new with Evolution or is it the same UI that's always been an Outlook clone?

--
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...

Upgrading from 7.3 status by mgkimsal2 · 2002-10-02 01:21 · Score: 5, Informative

I had a stock RH7.3 install, which I'd then changed a bit visually (new KDE themes, etc). I upgraded to RH8 yesterday. The 'bluecurve' didn't come up, although it was an available theme in the KDE theme area. Overall, after the 'upgrade', everything seemed exactly as it was before. Couple things seemed faster, but nothing significant had changed (didn't check Apache, and apparently it's gone to 2.0, so that probably wouldn't have worked).

Anyway, I had to completely remove my .kde directory, then restarting brought up everything 'new', and it looks nice. Not earth shattering, but nice. We've played around with it here, going between KDE and Gnome, and they do look very similar. Menus are the same, colors, etc. Fonts seemed a bit different between the two (Gnome fonts appeared a bit smaller) but otherwise it was fine. Not impossible to tell which you're using, but it's not a jarring experience going between the two.

The menu now has just one option for many things - 'project manager', 'web browser', 'email', etc. and I do think some things are grouped more logically than others. It also seems that you still get WAY too much *in the menus* which isn't useful for most people - it just overwhelms you when you're trying to find stuff. I'd suggest making a 'default' menu with fewer things, with the option of clicking a 'sysadmin menu' checkbox somewhere to add sysadmin stuff if/when it's needed.

Finally, many things seem faster - I'm assuming this is because of the new GCC and some kernel scheduling stuff. Whatever it is, it's made a big difference on this box. I'm testing at home tonight as well and expect similar performance increases.

All in all, a good upgrade.

--
creation science book

Re:Upgrading from 7.3 status by FreeLinux · 2002-10-02 01:38 · Score: 5, Insightful

Anyway, I had to completely remove my .kde directory, then restarting brought up everything 'new', and it looks nice.

This is the correct behavior for an upgrade. It would really suck if an OS upgrade wiped out your existing configs and preferrences, wouldn't it?

Suppose you had a server with a couple hundred users on it. Over the weekend you upgrade the OS and it resets everyone's desktops and configs. Would you like to be in the support chair on Monday morning?
Re:Upgrading from 7.3 status by mgkimsal2 · 2002-10-02 01:43 · Score: 2

Not saying it shouldn't behave that way, but it would help 'average' users such as myself who aren't low-level admins to spell out some of that during the install. The installer specifically *knows* it's an upgrade, so why not give me some 'tips' specific to an upgraded system? I'd rather read that than the continuous ads rotated during the hour long installation procedure. Maybe it says something in the boxed version, but I don't think so.

I was also posting it as a note for people like me who might have expected something a bit more or different.

--
creation science book
Re:Upgrading from 7.3 status by jejones · 2002-10-02 01:51 · Score: 2

In the immortal words of AOL users, "me too."

Well, almost. I didn't delete my .kde directory; just deleted the icons from the panel and then put their moral equivalents back. (Before doing that, they were all just some generic icon rather than something specific to what they ran, and clicking on them got a message about a file in /usr/share/applnk not existing. Looking around shows that directory to be pretty well emptied of nondirectory files, save for things that correspond to programs I installed apart from an RH install/upgrade, e.g. Opera.)

Things do seem faster. I'm a happy camper.
Re:Upgrading from 7.3 status by mccalli · 2002-10-02 01:53 · Score: 2

It also seems that you still get WAY too much *in the menus* which isn't useful for most people - it just overwhelms you when you're trying to find stuff.
To my mind, this is something Microsoft have got right. Not only is there not that much in the default install, but even after that under W2K/XP the items you don't use will be hidden.
I'd love that feature to come over to KDE and Gnome, subject to user preference of course.
Cheers,
Ian
Re:Upgrading from 7.3 status by MikeBabcock · 2002-10-02 01:56 · Score: 2

I actually think the Win2k / Office2k method of 'hiding' less-frequently used menu options is a great idea for Start-menu type menus; why not have a 'more...' icon/button on the menu to show you the other stuff you have never used before? Adding a right-click option of some variant on 'stick' would allow you to keep a less-frequently used option from ever going away and 'hide' would instantly add it to the 'infrequently used' list.

You never know though, Microsoft may have patented that idea.

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Re:Upgrading from 7.3 status by MikeBabcock · 2002-10-02 03:18 · Score: 2

Windows XP has that; it automatically adds them to a fixed-length menu to the left of the normal start menu; it works fairly well but its annoying because the start menu is now so huge.

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Re:Upgrading from 7.3 status by fault0 · 2002-10-02 03:21 · Score: 2

> I'd love that feature to come over to KDE and Gnome, subject to user preference of course.

This has been discussed many times in both the KDE and GNOME mailing lists, and the common concensus is that it's a horrible feature usability wise. Many new users of Office2k or XP, for example, can't tell where the "close" menu item is, since they've never clicked on it, and it's hidden by default.
Re:Upgrading from 7.3 status by mgkimsal2 · 2002-10-02 03:38 · Score: 2

The answer would be to not make 'close' hideable. Perhaps also after 4-5 times clicking on a menu with 'hidden' items with no item selected, all items become 'unhidden' for a time. Strange, perhaps, but there's gotta be some better way than multi-level nesting in the menus to show ALL options at all times.

--
creation science book

Just my $0.02 by papasui · 2002-10-02 01:21 · Score: 4, Redundant

I personally love that you can customize Linux to look and work the way you want it to, but setting that aside, I feel the only way you can actually convince the novice computer user a shot st using Linux the UI needs to consistant across the distos. I know plenty of people I work with that took a long time to learn Windows and might be willing to give Linux a shot, but not if they are going to be lost when they use a different GUI on a different Linux machine. If it came down to a somewhat standardized look, I think there would be a lot more converts. Yea that means making it more like Windows but that seems be what 95% of the population wants...

Re:Just my $0.02 by goldspider · 2002-10-02 02:12 · Score: 2

"Are we trying to make the Best Operating System or the Most Popular Operating System?"

You seem to suggest that the two are mutually exclusive. I disagree. There is no reason why an OS/desktop environment cannot be both intuitive and customizable. The fact that Redhat chose a look & feel similar to Windows XP does not detract from the OS (except from the perspective of frothing Linux zealots who fly into seizures at the thought of anything open-source resembling anything Microsoft).

There will always be differences, but Redhat shouldn't be disparaged for trying to bring their product to the masses by providing them with a familiar environment. If anything, they should be applauded.

--
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
Re:Just my $0.02 by aallan · 2002-10-02 02:22 · Score: 2

I never, ever want to see anything like the registry pop up in Linux. One central place for storing config info may sound nice, but what happens when it gets corrupt? Bye bye to everything!

Err, there is a central place for storing configuration files, its called /etc
Al.

--
The Daily ACK - Eclectic posts by yet another hacker
Re:Just my $0.02 by Kintanon · 2002-10-02 03:21 · Score: 2

Just because the default (or even just an install option) is "Novice Mode" with a Windows like interface that is easy to use, doesn't mean you can't use the "Expert Mode" install and do all of the same stuff you're used to doing. That's all I would like to see, a Novice Mode option on the install that sets you up with an easy to use, familiar interface that can help you ease into Linux.

Kintanon

--
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji

Better download suggestions by back_pages · 2002-10-02 01:24 · Score: 3, Informative

This is obviously old news to anyone who cared in the first place, but anyhow...

I was struggling with ftp transfers for the last two days. They are miserably clogged, as we all expect. I was surprised to find a perfectly legitimate use for P2P file sharing networks in this - gtk-gnutella has found all five isos for me with download speeds about 40 times greater than I was getting on ftp.

Just check the MD5 and enjoy.

Re:Better download suggestions by MikeBabcock · 2002-10-02 01:52 · Score: 2

Just the other day I moved my Redhat ISO's into my Kazaa shared files directory on an XP machine I use at work ...

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)

Re:UI Standardisation by MaxVlast · 2002-10-02 01:24 · Score: 2

Yes, yes it is. The Linux world's tendency is to find the successful, big player and hate it because anything they do is inherently evil because they're big and successful.

And unifying the Linux-oriented GUIs is a good idea. Unifying them around XP isn't a good idea. That thing's just ugly.

--
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome

Ahem... by Dutchmaan · 2002-10-02 01:24 · Score: 2, Insightful

"Looks like Red Hat is moving towards the windows XP style using its new Bluecurve graphical interface."

Excuse me... might you mean the OS X style Bluecurve graphical interface? Lets be honest here.. if it wasn't for Aqua.. The Luna derivative would probably never have been...and consequent derivatives.

which is faster? by night_flyer · 2002-10-02 01:26 · Score: 2

Mandrake or redhat?

--

Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...

Re:which is faster? by Yokaze · 2002-10-02 02:11 · Score: 2, Funny

Mandrake, by two days and a version number.

--
"Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
Re:which is faster? by fault0 · 2002-10-02 03:11 · Score: 2

Yes, gentoo was about 4% faster because of processor optimizations. Of course, it wasted more time compiling everything, so I just switched back to Debian/unstable, which just seemed to *work* always, unlike Gentoo, which broke more (admittadly, Gentoo is more bleeding-edge than Debian).

Re:Interface by MaxVlast · 2002-10-02 01:26 · Score: 2

I guarantee that if it looked like Mac OS X, it would be a complete disappointment in almost every department. I've used KDE, GNOME, Athena, Xt, and GNUstep extensively and not one of them has any hope of creating a solid-feeling UI that's half the quality of OpenStep (which I use daily) or Mac OS X (which I also use daily.) I'm not trying to be a troll, but they just don't have it yet.

--
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome

3 or 5 CD's by Space+cowboy · 2002-10-02 01:28 · Score: 2

I could have sworn that my mirror had 5 iso's the other day, but there's only 3 there now... What's missing ?

Simon

--
Physicists get Hadrons!

Free version is non-distributable by Beautyon · 2002-10-02 01:32 · Score: 5, Informative

From the LBC-announce mailing list:

"I've been getting a number of enquiries about when we'll have a cheap
version of Red Hat Linux 8.0.

Unfortunately, Red Hat have moved the goal posts again. In a surprising
move they've completely broken with their previous policy of 100% open
source. The new distribution contains a few components which are (C)
Red Hat and are *not* freely re-distributable. This has produced
surprisingly little comment but the effect is that it's no longer
possible to re-distribute copies of the standard download version of Red
Hat Linux. For the company that has up to now been the champion of Open
Source, it's a major direction change.

It's not all bad news though. The problem components are in identified
packages and Red Hat have said it's fine to re-distribute as long as
they are first removed. I therefore hope that we will be able to do a
Threads Linux 8.0. It will no longer be exactly the same as Red Hat,
although it will be functionally identical.

Cheers,
John"
-- The Linux Emporium - the source for Linux in the UK
See http://www.linuxemporium.co.uk/

--
ATH0 Bitcoin: 1DnwFLXczVZV8kLJbMYoheUrpqHesjxrSi

Re:Free version is non-distributable by Majix · 2002-10-02 01:56 · Score: 5, Informative

Unfortunately, Red Hat have moved the goal posts again. In a surprising
move they've completely broken with their previous policy of 100% open
source. The new distribution contains a few components which are (C)
Red Hat and are *not* freely re-distributable.

Every piece of software in the distribution is of course copyrighted to someone. That has absolutely no implications for whether you can redistribute it or not. If you thought GPL'ing the software somehows means giving up your copyright I suggest you reread the license.

Now I admit I haven't checked all of the packages, but I did check the most obvious ones, redhat-artwork etc. They are all under the GPL.

If there are indeed packages that can not be redistributed I sure would like to know the names of them.

Re:I think bluecurve sucks... by Pahroza · 2002-10-02 01:33 · Score: 2, Funny

News at 10: Two of the billions of people on the planet Earth had very similar ideas.

Re:Save your bandwidth by CvD · 2002-10-02 01:33 · Score: 2, Informative

Install apt for RPMs (it is an RPM) after which you can do:

apt-get install mplayer

apt-get install xine

apt-get install xmms

It'll get all the necessary libraries, etc. No need to go through dependency hell!

How easy is that?

Cheers,

Costyn.

--
The Official Steve Ballmer Webpage

Upgrades seem to give problems by dybdahl · 2002-10-02 01:35 · Score: 2

Most I've heard that tried to upgrade Red Hat 7.3 computers to 8.0, have failed. My own only runs windowmaker, but KDE and Gnome fail to launch. Some people say I should be happy :-)

The kernel only changed from 2.4.18-10 to 2.4.18-14, but my uhci usb wasn't detected automatically, so it removed my mouse, "rpm --rebuild" didn't work on the source rpms I downloaded from Nvidia (--rebuild is no longer an rpm option), Xconfigurator is gone, but the kernel seems to detect other hardware on my motherboard better because everything runs much faster now.

The discussion we had lately about bluecurve is much better understood when you try Red Hat 8.0. KDE and Gnome look so much the same that most people would probably want to choose the default (Gnome), and then they don't find all the neat stuff built into KDE (like the KDE file system with sftp support, KDE printing etc.).

Bluecurve is not good for experienced users, but seems to be a gift to new Linux users. They will feel welcome. Since only a small percentage of desktop users use Linux now, I think this is a good step on the road to make GNU/Linux the dominant desktop operating system.

Dybdahl.

Re:Upgrades seem to give problems by MikeBabcock · 2002-10-02 01:49 · Score: 2

Do you think that if they keep it up (and get some community support perhaps) that the KDE and Gnome programs will be able to interact more and more, such as adding KDE's SFTP VFS support to the Gnome filesystem, etc.?

Perhaps we'll get to the point where there's a nice dialog to choose your interface options and they're simply transparent (browser: Mozilla / Konqueror backend, VFS: K / Nautilus, etc.).

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Re:Upgrades seem to give problems by fault0 · 2002-10-02 03:15 · Score: 2

> The discussion we had lately about bluecurve is much better understood when you try Red Hat 8.0. KDE and Gnome look so much the same that most people would probably want to choose the default (Gnome)

I finished installing RH8 nearly a hour ago. Pray tell, how is GNOME listed as DEFAULT anywhere? They seem to receive pretty much equal treatment in psyche.

Non-newbie Linux users know that Redhat supports GNOME more than KDE, but newbies don't know that, and GNOME's not treated as special in the installer, so people have as much of a chance to miss GNOME's cool stuff as KDE's cool stuff.
Re:Upgrades seem to give problems by Michael+Wardle · 2002-10-02 19:23 · Score: 2

Pray tell, how is GNOME listed as DEFAULT anywhere?

Having just installed it twice today: If you choose one of the standard installation types (such as Personal Desktop or Workstation), GNOME is installed, but KDE is not. I expect if you choose a custom install, the GNOME package category will be checked and the KDE one will not be, but I have not yet performed a custom install.
Re:Upgrades seem to give problems by Michael+Wardle · 2002-10-02 19:29 · Score: 2

"rpm --rebuild" didn't work on the source rpms... (--rebuild is no longer an rpm option)

If you had read the release notes, you would know that the rpm package has been broken into two parts, rpm and rpm-build, with rpm-build required to build RPM packages.
Re:Upgrades seem to give problems by fault0 · 2002-10-03 02:20 · Score: 2

Ah, I see. I always do custom installs :-)

RH8... the good, the bad, the ugly.... by JeffVolc · 2002-10-02 01:37 · Score: 5, Informative

I downloaded the 3 ISOs on monday and installed Redhat 8 on my laptop and home server server yesterday. FWIW, I installed Mandrake 9 on my laptop and home workstation on monday to see how it will compare to RH8.

The Good...
Very polished... no really... VERY POLISHED! Way impressed. The new theme is nice. Yes some stuff is moved around... so what. No technical hitches at all. Everything was detected great.

The Bad...
2.4.18... what's up with that. I guess it's been in testing too long. Actually, for a X.0 release things look pretty good.

The Ugly...
Apache 2.0+PHP.... none of my PHP stuff seems to work. This was mounted straight from my 7.3 install. Some real ugly errors.

The verdict....
Apache 2.0+PHP problem is a show stopper for me. Wiped the machine and installed Mandrake 9.0. Sad since 8 is very slick. Hats off (pun intended) to Redhat for a great release. I may come back to it if I can get the PHP stuff resolved.

Mandrake 9 comments: I've had issues with stability in previous Mandrake releases. So far I haven't had one with 9. I like the autologin and tv card setup. It almost setup my dual monitor... jsut a little tweaking. Mandrake SEEMS faster and more responsive than Redhat. Haven't benchmarked though so it's just an impression. This could be the release which makes me a Mandrake Convert... and I've been using Redhat since 3.0.3! Only extra package I needed was mtx for my tape library (Redhat includes it).

Jeff

Re:RH8... the good, the bad, the ugly.... by Majix · 2002-10-02 02:07 · Score: 5, Insightful

2.4.18... what's up with that. I guess it's been in testing too long. Actually, for a X.0 release things look pretty good.

The included kernel is by no means a stock 2.4.18. There's a ton of patches and tweaks applied (all available separeately in the kernel SRPMs'). For example the system clock ticks 5 times faster than the stock one, giving much better responsiveness in for example X (see the release notes on for more information). Large parts of Alan Cox's ac-kernel tree is part of the RH kernel (Alan is employed by RH you know). I know of no distribution that would ship a stock kernel.

Apache 2.0+PHP problem is a show stopper for me. Wiped the machine and installed Mandrake 9.0. Sad since 8 is very slick. Hats off (pun intended) to Redhat for a great release. I may come back to it if I can get the PHP stuff resolved.

All recent version of PHP have deprecated the REGISTER_GLOBALS option (and good riddance!). This is most likely what is causing your problems, poorly written scripts will no longer run on recent PHP's.
Re:RH8... the good, the bad, the ugly.... by abdulwahid · 2002-10-02 02:47 · Score: 5, Informative

All recent version of PHP have deprecated the REGISTER_GLOBALS option (and good riddance!). This is most likely what is causing your problems, poorly written scripts will no longer run on recent PHP's.

They haven't got rid of REGISTER_GLOBALS rather they have just made the default to be off. That is of course a good thing as they can often cause drastic security risks by people passing variables to your script and causing behaviour you didn't expect. For now you could re-enable it but I wouldn't recommend leaving it that way. Fix your scripts and then leave it off.

--
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10);'
Re:RH8... the good, the bad, the ugly.... by boa13 · 2002-10-02 07:59 · Score: 2

I know of no distribution that would ship a stock kernel.

Uuh... Slackware? Gentoo Linux (optional)?
Re:RH8... the good, the bad, the ugly.... by Micah · 2002-10-02 08:27 · Score: 2

Personally I *like* the way PHP registers global variables from POSt and GET queries. Makes it really easy to code in.

Just make sure you initialize all your variables and you don't have a problem! I'll probably set that option to ON.
Re:RH8... the good, the bad, the ugly.... by Micah · 2002-10-02 10:35 · Score: 2

If the language was a bit cleaner, I'd recommend to mod parent up. Installing Apache 1.3 is no big deal. You can probably even easily rebuild the 1.3 RPMs if you prefer to keep everything in that format.

Red Hat may have jumped the gun by including Apache 2 before PHP and mod_perl are proven on it, but in the lang run it should help to iron out the bugs. Just like what happened when they were the first to include glibc 2.0 in Red Hat 5.0.

In the meantime, if 2.0 doesn't work for you, just use 1.3! Any Linux admin worth $5/hour will be able to set that up.
Re:RH8... the good, the bad, the ugly.... by Micah · 2002-10-02 10:41 · Score: 2

For what it's worth, I just got my old PHP scripts running under Psyche's Apache+PHP. I just set the PHP options register_globals and short_open_tag to ON. Haven't done extensive testing yet, but anecdotally, the script runs, and even connects to my Postgres database.

A users perspective of Red Hat 8 and KDE by Nailer · 2002-10-02 01:39 · Score: 5, Informative

Most people have heard a lot on this topic, but mostly from people who haven't actually used 8.0 or Null. In fact, a good deal of the information that has been touted about the web is provably false. Some of the changes have had negative side effects that are in bugzilla, but, in my opinion as a KDE user, overall they've increased the usability of Linux desktops.

I've written a fairly comprehensive summary of what exactly Red Hat have modified about their KDE setup, and what I believe to be the rationale behind those changes. If you've read it before, it might eb worth a visit as I've made a few correctiosn and additiosn since then.

Cheers,

Mike

Re:A users perspective of Red Hat 8 and KDE by fault0 · 2002-10-02 02:46 · Score: 2

Very nice page. I think it'll help settle some of the myths surrounding KDE and Redhat8. Hopefully, it'll be somewhat of a reconciliation between the two groups.
Re:A users perspective of Red Hat 8 and KDE by Pii · 2002-10-02 02:57 · Score: 3, Interesting

For perspective, I'm not a RedHet user. I prefer Debian on servers, and have been utilizing Mandrake on Desktop/EyeCandy machines.
Having said that, I read the summary that you've written about RedHat, and their KDE modifications. I think it's very well written, and very comprehensive. I would have a hard time disagreeing with any of the conclusions that you've drawn.
I hope that some of the complainers take the time to read it as well.
RedHat is simply trying to put forward the best that Linux has to offer, which will invariably result in the subjective assessment of various competing applications. Some applications are simply more refined than others, and as a result, they've been elevated to "default" status. The alternatives are still present.
As for trying to unify the appearance of the completing desktop environments, that too is a step that most people see as inevitable. It certainly makes life easier for the new users, and OS converts. I know that from an aesthetic perspective, I'd like my KDE and GNOME apps to have a similar appearance, regardless of which desktop I happen to be running.
These are for the most part cosmetic changes, and the end result is a better overall distribution.
Good for RedHat, and good for Linux.

--
For those that would die defending it, Freedom
has a sweet taste that the protected will never know.
Re:A users perspective of Red Hat 8 and KDE by JoeBuck · 2002-10-02 04:40 · Score: 2

I didn't notice spelling mistakes in the article. I did notice some spelling differences, like "behaviour", caused by the fact that the author is Australian and not American, as well as spelling mistakes he quotes Mosfet as making.

Re:love it by N3WBI3 · 2002-10-02 01:41 · Score: 2

Just dont install it, download 1.3 and put that one on

--

Re:I think bluecurve sucks... by ActiveSX · 2002-10-02 01:44 · Score: 3, Funny

Did you just call your own theme a turd?

Why a new major release? by less · 2002-10-02 01:46 · Score: 2, Informative

Several people have questioned the reason for RH to make this a new major release number. Some of the comments are "Does a new desktop theme mandate a new major release" etc.etc.. The answer is of course, no.

However, aside from the new Blue Curve theme RH 8.0 also contains new major relases of Gnome and Apache. Apache is also probably the most used "userland" application in the system.... So imo Apache 2 and Gnome 2 _alone_ mandates a new major release number for RedHat Linux.

Btw, I thought the short informal mail RH sent to RHN customers is probaly the the best "in a nuthshell" description of RH8:s new features:

Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:41:54 -0400 From: Red Hat Network <rhn-admin@rhn.redhat.com>
[snip]
What's new in Red Hat Linux 8.0, anyway?
* A new interface -- a user-friendly desktop with graphical enhancements and improved menu organization
* The latest Gnu Compiler Collection, gcc-3.2, and a specially tuned and tested high-performace kernel, 2.4.18.
* Cutting-edge web server technology powered by the latest release of Apache, 2.0.
* Updated graphical configuration tools that make setting up a Linux server a truly point-and-click experience.
* A single interface for package selection during and after installation
* Enhanced personal security, featuring a point-and-click firewall tool to protect your system from Internet intruders.

Blue Curve is nice for newbies by Gorgonzola · 2002-10-02 01:48 · Score: 2

Blue Curve is really nice for those that come from the Microsoft world. Personally I am aching for the first icon-set RPMs that give me back the default Gnome look and I don't like the menus either. The latter bit is just bad for everyone, the menus are really confusing and inconsistent.

--
-- Spelling and grammar errors tend to be a sign of erroneous thinking.

You guys still use HTTP to get this? P2P! by DaveWood · 2002-10-02 01:52 · Score: 5, Insightful

I don't know why all you guys seem think Kazaalite and BearShare are for MP3s... They're for downloading RedHat ISO's, silly!

-David

--
We're on the road to Tycho.

Re:You guys still use HTTP to get this? P2P! by MoonFacedAssassin · 2002-10-02 02:00 · Score: 3, Insightful

Let's see...using standard bellsouth adsl...1.5 Mbps download speed from a mirror over HTTP...or 4 kBps download speed using a P2P program. Not a tough choice there.

--
I am a meat popsicle.
Re:You guys still use HTTP to get this? P2P! by Echnin · 2002-10-02 02:08 · Score: 2, Funny

I don't know why all you guys seem think Kazaalite and BearShare are for MP3s... They're for downloading RedHat ISO's, silly!
I'm not sure. Maybe it's because I am able to download at 95% of my max speed immediately from an FTP site, instead of waiting for three hours to download at 10%.
Okay, back on topic. Red Hat should be able to bundle any themes that they'd like along with their distribution. This particular interface does not seem as daunting to Windows users as the default Gnome team, and that will make them more comfortable. When I first ran KDE (which was not long ago, I admit), I immediately switched to the Redmond theme, because it looked much more familiar. That's just what this is about.

--
Lalala

So.... can my wife finally use linux? by TheLocustNMI · 2002-10-02 01:54 · Score: 2

Not that she couldn't before, per se, but she didn't really want to unlearn her Windows ways to do it! She's much more a casual user than I, and when i installed Mandrake 8 on her machine (with KDE as Desktop, using Galeon as browser) and when she went to "set image as wallpaper" and it blew up her desktop!

Galeon tried to use the Gnome Desktop and she was using KDE, BLAH BLAH BLAH. Point being, the more casual user doesn't give a damn (when they are first using an OS) about the differences and inequities between WM's and desktops. To quote my wife "How is this better than Windows?".

Now, I don't know if this push by Redhat to obsfucate the desktops from the user would fix the issue i stated, but frankly, the community NEEDS this...

--
thelocust[dot]org

Re:So.... can my wife finally use linux? by back_pages · 2002-10-02 02:04 · Score: 2, Interesting

Isn't it slightly unfair for someone to experience a single problem and say, "How is this better than Windows?" I mean, problems are going to happen, and their nature will be different on different systems, but Windows people have grown accustomed to Windows problems and are oblivious to their pervasiveness. When they are given a single new problem, their universe collapses.
So everytime a friend comes to me, their resident "computer genius" (their term for me, obviously) and say, "Why does Windows do this?", be it driver problems, IE crashing, blue screens, MS Word screwing up the document, CPU utilization going crazy, start menu randomly vanishing, and so on, I give them the true answer.
"Because Windows is SO easy to use."
This whole nonsense about Linux being tougher on the end user is absurd. Is it more difficult to administer? Sure. Is it more difficult to use? Absolutely not.
Last night, my brother was using his Windows box and Explorer screwed up 3 times in a row, IE crashed, his file associations made opening a file complicated, and rearranging programs on the start menu infuriated him. He was fuming, I was snickering. "Hey man, don't be mad. It's just that Windows is so easy to use. Be glad you aren't running linux."
Anyway, this isn't meant to flame, preach, or correct you, but just to share my observation that the real problem with linux converts is that they suffer a mental breakdown when they experience a new problem, and have very little appreciation for the utter lack of their old problems. My solution? Mock their old problems to death. ;)
Re:So.... can my wife finally use linux? by SweenyTod · 2002-10-02 02:11 · Score: 2

Amoungst a very few other things, my wife uses our RH 7.3 for listening to CD's, mp3's and watching movies with xine.

A fresh RH8.0 install leaves her pretty much right outta luck, I'd say.

--
Alas gallinaceas de urbe bovis volo

Re:Save your bandwidth by 0x0d0a · 2002-10-02 01:54 · Score: 2

Yes, I've noticed how downloading and installing xmms is is truly Herculean task.

Now, I *will* grant that compiling mplayer from source, as you really should do, is at least a couple notches closer to "Herculean", but that's always been the case.

--
May we never see th

Still going . by MrLinuxHead · 2002-10-02 01:55 · Score: 2

I beleive we had a discussion on this very topic two days ago (Monday Sept. 30 2002) here on good ol /. Remember? No? Ok here is a link for you

So with that out of the way I belive the general opinion is that the FTP mirrors are all overwhelmed for the last two days. This has been my experience as most mirrors are full of anonymous users and the one I did get on has been dog-slow. I am currently on CD2 and it's oonly 50 % done. I am clocking about 5 KBs so I don't expect to burn a full set for a day or so.

What that tells me is this is a wildly popular Redhat release, and may be the breakout disto that Linux advocates need to show off Linux. This may propel Linux into Mom+Pop's home/office PC front and center quicker than anyone could imagine.

Using ((null)) for the last few weeks gave me a look at the UI, and I like it. A lot. I think Bluecurve Kicks Ass, and I have installed on one clients laptop allready, as a dual boot Win98 installation. As I delivered to my client I booted it up in Win98. Ho-hum was the general feeling from the customer. When I re-booted to (null) the sound of jaws hitting the floor was heard in the next room. Everyone to a person had to say how nice the fonts, icons, and EVERYTHING looked. They don't know much about PC's and I am guessing I will get a few phone calls about simple stuff, so let's see how it goes, eh?

--
I may be bad with names, but I'll never forget your IP address

Mandrake rules by lovebyte · 2002-10-02 01:56 · Score: 2, Funny

I just upgraded to Mandrake 9.0. Yes you heard me : 9.0. I don't understand why so many of you want to go for an old 8.0 version!

--

I'll do it for cheesy poofs.

Upgraded yesterday, Apache migration info by ccarr.com · 2002-10-02 01:58 · Score: 4, Informative

I upgraded on a mouseless server without a GUI. The prior version was Red Hat 7.3 with a highly customized Apache config.

I got a gpm oops during package install that caused a minor formatting problem with the progress bar, but it didn't obscure the information or break the install.

Needless to say, managing the Apache migration to 2.0 was the biggest headache, but I'd say Red Hat did a reasonably good job of easing the pain. When you try to start Apache from the rc script, it fails with an error directing you to an html file for information on migration. That file was fairly helpful as a starting point.

It explained that my old config files had not been changed but would not work with the new Apache version, and it explained that new stock config files had been installed and where I could find them. Working with the two files was awkward without the GUI, having to Alt-F2 and Alt-F1 between terminals, but I managed to get the config file updated for my sites in about an hour. I had already been off line for quite a while during the OS install, so I didn't mind much. If down time is an issue, consider bringing in a temporary box.

Interestingly, I did choose to customize the packages that I upgraded, but I didn't see Apache there. It apparently forced me to upgrade. Can anyone confirm this? Perhaps I overlooked it.

I would have liked to see some warning or information during the installation. I'm not sure everyone will stumble onto that migration message as serendipitously as I did. (It's here: /usr/share/doc/httpd-2.0.40/migration.html.) It may have been visible during the system startup, but since Apache starts relatively late you would have had to have been paying close attention. I didn't notice. I'd also liked to have seen options to install 2.0 to a different directory while leaving the 1.3 version in a working state, or to revert to 1.3. Also, it's fortunate that my sites don't make use of any modules that aren't available in 2.0.

--
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve. BB

Re:Upgraded yesterday, Apache migration info by tshoppa · 2002-10-02 03:06 · Score: 2

Interesting experience you posted there; I appreciate the info.
But it mostly confirms what I've thought all along: RedHat shouldn't be supplying any "default" Apache installs, just as Windows shouldn't be supplying any "default" IIS installs. Everyone who sets up a server, IMHO, should build the components from source and test them out on not-port-80. And, as an aside to the way Redhat clobbered your old Apache install, if you had built Apache 2.x from sources it would have (by default) installed itself in /usr/local/apache2 to keep it distinct from /usr/local/apache, the default place to plop Apache 1.x.

Number of disks (was RE: Yay ...) by gaj · 2002-10-02 01:58 · Score: 4, Informative

Actually, only three are installation discs. Two are source (SRPMs) and one is docs. In their defense, there is roughly one metric shitload of stuff that you can install. One thing I found refreshing (though I've not yet tested it) is an option for "minimal" package install taht is for routers, firewalls and such. I may have a look at that this weekend.

I did install 8.0 last night. I was running "null" for the last week or so, and it looks like most of my problems with null were fixed. One hassle is that my laptop doesn't have APM support; like most new laptops it is ACPI only. The kernel RedHat ships isn't ACPI enabled, unforch. Easy enough to fix, of course, but annoying none the less.

My only real outstanding issues are suspend (which swsusp should cover if I can't get Toshiba's ACPI BIOS to cooperate) and scanner support.

Unforch, the latter was a problem in 7.3 as well, and I never did get it working. Worked fine in 7.2, IIRC. Epson Perfection 1200U Photo is the scanner model. I haven't really done any looking into the issue, though, just tried SANE and it couldn't find the scanner.

All in all 8.0 looks pretty nice. The root menu (or the "start menu" that has replaced it $#@%!) is still a fsking mess, with many config tools not there. I do virtually all my config using my favorite config tool though (vi), so that is mostly an issue for interfaces they've changed. Some of the new GUI prefs tools are pretty nice, though, so I may well start using them.

The AI fonts looke nice, though the only fonts available for gnome-terminal (using the std prefs dialog anyway, haven't checked to see if good ole "fixed" is available) look like shite when made small enough to fit two terms side-by-side on my XGA display. Quick install of either the old fonts or rxvt should fix that, though, and the tradeoff is well worth it for most users (nice clear text in slightly larger sizes).

In short, I approve of 8.0. The new compiler tool chain, Python 2.2.1, Mozilla 1.0.1, GTK+/GNOME 2.0, etc. made upgrading an eazy decision for me.

Re:Number of disks (was RE: Yay ...) by gaj · 2002-10-02 04:33 · Score: 2

Yeah, I'm sure the scanner problem is just a config issue. I probably went through the same thing in 7.2 and just have forgotten.
As for gnome 2.0, I ran null for about a week and it seemed ok for me. No panel crashes, anyway. Since I just installed psyche last night, I cannot speak for it with certainty, but it panel was fine during the time I did run it.

Re:Screenshots... by abischof · 2002-10-02 02:07 · Score: 2

So, what is it that makes their fonts look so nice? Seriously, I'm considering switching to Red Hat if for no other reason than the fonts alone ;).

--

Alex Bischoff
HTML/CSS coder for hire

Almost great by ACK!! · 2002-10-02 02:11 · Score: 3, Informative

Listen, I love this look for the Window Manager and widgets.

However, I feel that the icons with their plastic 3-D look is too KDE-like. (I know KDE folks say just the opposite but its my OPINION).

My big problem is the fact that they ripped out all the mp3 stuff and do not include most plugins for multimedia use needed for Mozilla. SuSE has no problem shipping Acrobat, RealPlayer etc...etc...

What does this mean? A lot of noisome downloading and such to get a distro I can live with.

Also, what is up with going with Gnome 2.0 by default and not including the Gnumeric gtk 2.0 version? I know that the Gimp port is supposed to be unstable but I love the thing it works great for me. Include some of those cutting edge ports!

On the good side I like the way they integrated the system tools in a very smooth Gnome-like fashion. I hate it when system tools are not integrated well into the desktop environment.

--
ACK /ak/ interj. 2. [from the comic strip "Bloom County"] An exclamation of surprised disgust, esp. i

The new look reminds me of.... by MtViewGuy · 2002-10-02 02:12 · Score: 2

....Windows XP's Luna interface. :-/

If you didn't look carefully you'd be wondering if you were running Windows XP and not Red Hat Linux 8.0.

Re:The new look reminds me of.... by hitzroth · 2002-10-02 03:32 · Score: 2

Um... I'm using XP right now, (for me, it's been stable and quick with SP1) and as far as the RH8 screenshots go, they look only vaguely like XP. Similar order and placement of the window buttons, and rounded top corners on the windows appear to be the only real similarities. The RH8 interface is still very nice, but I still like the look of XP better.

--
In mathematics, one does not understand things, one merely gets used to them.
--VonNeumann
Re:The new look reminds me of.... by MtViewGuy · 2002-10-02 03:43 · Score: 2

The reason why I said the graphical UI of Red Hat Linux 8.0 reminds me a lot of Windows XP's Luna interface is the fact that a lot of icons on the RH Linux 8 UI has the very colorful look you get in XP.
Re:The new look reminds me of.... by hitzroth · 2002-10-02 04:01 · Score: 2

They do have a similar high-color quality, but I probably would have said that the icons look like XP icons rather than generalizing it to "user interface."

Sorry about the confusion.

--
In mathematics, one does not understand things, one merely gets used to them.
--VonNeumann
Re:The new look reminds me of.... by be-fan · 2002-10-02 05:09 · Score: 2

Hrm. RH8 seems to remind me a little bit of BeOS, only flatter. But apparently, grey is back :)

--
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...

ISO date on pysche... by ThomasMis · 2002-10-02 02:13 · Score: 2

I've been hunting around FTP servers, trying to find one with Redhat 8.0 that's not bogged down. I've noticed that the ISO's are timestamped Sept 10th? Why so old? Anybody know if that is the date that RH freezed changes on pysche?

--
Check out my podcast: DreamStation.cc Video Game Show

Re:ISO date on pysche... by Mandi+Walls · 2002-10-02 03:24 · Score: 2, Informative

The isos would have been sent to a publisher to be stamped onto optical media in enough time to be shippable for the release.
Damn hardcopy!
--mandi

Mandrake... by Sj0 · 2002-10-02 02:14 · Score: 4, Informative

I downloaded Mandrake 9.0 last night, and I must say, Redhat would have to do something pretty spectacular to top it. I installed it on my laptop, and not only did it install with room to spare on a 400MB Partition, it comes with many lightweight WMs which are great for a machine with a mere 32 MB of RAM. After seeing the installer(which actually took into consideration that I might not have all three CDs -- something I've been burned by RedHat with several times), and seeing Mandrake resize my Windows partition automatically, I'd be hard-pressed to find a reason to move back -- on my desktop and laptop machines, that is. The server would definitely be RedHat -- It's just something that RedHat is better for.

Sorry for ranting about Mandrake in a thread about RedHat.

--
It's been a long time.

Used the beta and now the 8.0 release by tf23 · 2002-10-02 02:14 · Score: 5, Insightful

I was lucky enough to snag the first 4 cd's over the weekend, so I've been playing with 8.0 for a few days now.

I had the beta release null installed on a box last week that I had tried too.

Anyway, as for 8.0,
likes:
- the interface. switching between KDE and GNOME doesn't cause others looking at the desktop to be totally mystified. they both look similar, and it's been a long time coming that Redhat should've done this.
- mozilla. it's come a long way, and its turning into quite a browser.
- it installed nicely on all but one box - it didn't recognize the soundcard on a dell optiplex gx1p. running sndconfig manually after the install fixed that right up.

dislikes:
- no direct way to mount a win32 share from the desktop. Yes, I can start Konq and smb://somemachine, but can I right-click and mount it? Nope.
- no 'run' interface like win32. sorry, but I can window-key-R and type \\machine\sharename
and I'm there. Can't do that with RH.
- xmms has mp3 play-ability removed. Fine, goto http://psyche.freshrpms.net/ and grab the rpm so it can play mp3's.
- dvd playback (mpg, avi, etc) - again, gotta go get more rpm's from freshrpms because default redhat8 doesn't have the capability.

Now, I realize that before the latest Win32 OS's came out, you had to go get an mp3 player. And most people, even though Windows XP can play them out of the box now, they probably go get winamp. (I do). So can I really bitch about redhat not playing mp3's out of the box?

Sure I can. In my opinion, Redhat could atleast buy the license to include this stuff, so that if I purchase the boxed set, and install it, that would have the capability built in. I can understand they don't want to pay for the people who are downloading the iso's for free.

I also came to the realization that even though all the apps have the same look and feel, running KDE apps under GNOME, or vise versa, doesn't always play nicely. Example: I like Kmail (specifically because of the filters, and it acts like Eudora). Anyway, I ran it under GNOME. It tried to view a jpg attachment someone sent by clicking on it, and it didn't happen. Switched to KDE (which I normally use 99% of the time) went to kmail, clicked on the attachment... bingo, it came right up.

Yes, there's probably a fix for this. But I'm sorry, I'm getting tired of having to tinker to get each linux box to act uniformally all the time. Between the two here at work, the 2 at home, and the dual boot laptop, it can take a lot of time tinkering with things to get them to work. Hopefully, w/ each release of redhat this will become less and less of an issue.

Anyway, just my $.02....

tf23

--
http://slashdot.org/~tf23/journal

Re:Used the beta and now the 8.0 release by rhavyn · 2002-10-02 06:14 · Score: 2

Red Hat can't redistribute mp3 software because it breaks the GPL. The GPL requires that any patents associated with the software be licensed for free for all users of the software. That used to be true (the license for mp3 used to say that free decoders got a free license). It no longer says that. So by redistributing xmms with mp3 decoding, Red Hat is violating copyright (it can't be licensed under the GPL and since there is no other license it reverts to normal copyright ... ie no redistribution). Red Hat can pay the license fee, but they still can't redistribute the software.
Re:Used the beta and now the 8.0 release by Michael+Wardle · 2002-10-02 10:17 · Score: 2

dislikes: - no direct way to mount a win32 share from the desktop. Yes, I can start Konq and smb://somemachine, but can I right-click and mount it? Nope. - no 'run' interface like win32. sorry, but I can window-key-R and type \\machine\sharename

On a standard GNOME 2 installation, you can use Actions->Run Program... to type a program name or any valid URI, including local files and web locations. Are you just saying it can't be used to access SMB/CIFS locations in the non-standard Windows manner or does Red Hat 8 perhaps move or rename this menu item?

Redhat-logos by Alan+Cox · 2002-10-02 02:16 · Score: 5, Interesting

At least I assume it is the redhat-logos that he means. If you sell a Red Hat 8.0 based distribution you need to replace the logos with your own logos so that people know it isnt the genuine Red Hat article.

So you swap the logo package for 'emporium linux' or whatever. Logo rules are there for the obvious trademark reasons, and helping to ensure people know if they are getting Red Hat or not.

In terms of non free packages - netscape is gone and the flash type stuff is on the extra app cds or available from the vendor rather than lurking in with the free stuff.

I'm not sure quite how the logos fit in with each persons individual definition of free. What we do is basically the same as for example Debian
(http://www.debian.org/logos/)

Alan

Re:Redhat-logos by alue · 2002-10-02 03:02 · Score: 5, Informative

You're right about this one, apparently: the redhat-logos package, and additionally the anaconda-images package, are licensed under something red hat wrote rather than the gpl:

$ rpm -qi redhat-logos
Name : redhat-logos
. . .
License: Copyright ? 1999-2002 Red Hat, Inc. All rights reserved.
. . .

These packages include a file on copying. Here's a n excerpt from that file:

The redhat-logos package and the anaconda-images package (the "Packages")
contain image files which incorporate the RED HAT trademark, Red Hat
"Shadow Man" logo and the RPM logo (the "Marks"). RED HAT, the Red Hat
"Shadow Man" logo, RPM, and the RPM logo are trademarks or registered
trademarks of Red Hat, Inc. in the United States and other
countries.

Red Hat, Inc. grants you the right to use the Packages during the
normal operation of other software programs that call upon the
Packages. Red Hat, Inc. grants to you the right and license to copy
and redistribute the unaltered Packages, but only in conjunction with
copying or redistributing additional software packages that call upon
the Packages during the normal course of operation and only in
non-commercial distributions permitted under Red Hat's trademark
guidelines found at www.redhat.com/about/trademark_guidelines.html
or under a separate written license agreement from Red Hat. Red Hat,
Inc. grants to you the right and license to copy and redistribute the
Packages in commercial distributions without additional license or
permission, but only in conjunction with copying or redistributing
additional software packages that call upon the Packages during the
normal course of operation and only when all of the Marks have been
removed or replaced within the Packages.

So this is all about the Shadow Man and RPM logos. According to the license, you can still redistribute red hat in its entirety, provided you don't make any money off of the redistribution. If you do want to redistribute Red Hat in a commercial fashion, however, you're permitted to do so "only when all of the Marks have been removed or replaced within the Packages."

Looks like a good compromise to me.
Re:Redhat-logos by Wesley+Felter · 2002-10-02 04:38 · Score: 2

If you're going to distribute a RH-based distro it is absolutely appropriate and proper to completely disassociate it from RH, and IMHO RH is absolutely in the right to demand it.

But what if you're distributing the exact same bits as Red Hat? That's not a "knockoff", it's not "RH-based", it is Red Hat Linux. But Red Hat won't let companies like Cheapbytes do it. Red Hat is certainly within their rights, but it's too bad IMO.
Re:Redhat-logos by otis+wildflower · 2002-10-02 06:25 · Score: 2, Interesting

The problem is, clueless user doesn't contact cheapbytes for support, they contact redhat. If there's enough clueless users, it becomes a pr and support hassle for redhat, which they really don't deserve.

I agree it's not the best of situations, but when you have enough bad apples abusing the barrel, what else can you do? AFAICR RH still offers iso downloads, which are fine for me (broadband + burner) and for the non-clueless-user who doesn't have the bandwidth, time or equipment to do isos themselves there's always debian...
Re:Redhat-logos by Wesley+Felter · 2002-10-02 06:35 · Score: 2

The support thing is a problem; I wonder if a little user education could solve it. Imagine if the Red Hat installer put up a screen during installation that says "Unless you have a registration card, you cannot get any support from Red Hat. [Cancel] [Accept]". Maybe this would make things more clear.
Re:Redhat-logos by jdavidb · 2002-10-02 07:48 · Score: 2

Thank you for keeping Red Hat Free.

--
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.

Celeron troubles.... by Peyna · 2002-10-02 02:18 · Score: 3, Informative

Well, at least that's what I think is causing my problems. I'm trying to install Redhat 8 on my laptop which has an old school celeron 466 (non-mobile), and every time after install it locks up after freeing unused kernel memory. 7.3 worked great, and I had the same error with Mandrake 9. Any ideas or similar experiences? I got absolutely no response on the forums.

--
What?

Re:RedHat is like Microsoft by rseuhs · 2002-10-02 02:19 · Score: 2, Insightful

Maybe you should work for redhat and get them back on track. you do so much complaining, so where is this superior solution of yours??? you want the world to start using linux??? get up on the ball and write your own gui for linux that does better than what's out now.

Just use *ANY* commercial non-RedHat distribution. SuSE works like a charm, as does Mandrake. You get into a nice KDE-interface and then you can choose with one click if you would like KDE to be just KDE or imitate Windows, MacOS or classical Unix GUIs.

So there you have your newbie-compatible settings (Windows-like) but you are still going to keep advanced users (KDE-defaults), you even have settings for Mac-Linux converts and old Unix-users. This is in stock-KDE, available for a long time already.

Just because RedHat is ignoring solutions, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Which was exactly the point of my post.

Re:Rethat is for weenies by AppyPappy · 2002-10-02 02:22 · Score: 5, Funny

Real men make their own kernel with nothing but a ball of string, a hammer and the instruction manual from a Norelco shaver.

But you can't tell young people that today. They are too spoiled. Why I remember hacking a copy of OS 390 onto my TRS-80 Model 1 using a 4 baud modem running Morse Code emulation. I used the RPG compiler to build a damn refrigerator. You try and do that with a sissified Make linker today and you'll be drinking warm milk that's for sure.

Nurse, I need a thumper.

--

If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem

michael.. move on, folks, nothing to see. by Jeppe+Salvesen · 2002-10-02 02:25 · Score: 2

We all know michael is - ehm - intellectually challanged. He's very enthusiastic about these things, just not all that knowledgeable or strong at research. We'll just have to live with that.

--

Stop the brainwash

But what about by Maeryk · 2002-10-02 02:27 · Score: 2

No MP3 support! AUGHHH! I read the release notes while installing last night.. I will re-install Mandrake over it tonight. I just dont like it. Now I realize to each his own and stuff, but if I want XP I'll install XP.. and RedHat has been getting goofier and goofier with each new release.
(Yes.. Im a candy code junkie.. but this one is just silly!)

Maeryk

--
Feminine Protection? What is that? A chartreuse flame thrower?

Re:But what about by tuffy · 2002-10-02 05:26 · Score: 2

Why not just download an RPM containing the mp3 plugin? Sheesh. I'm more annoyed that xlockmore was removed, but one can't have everything.

--
Ita erat quando hic adveni.

at 5 cds... by DuckWing · 2002-10-02 02:29 · Score: 2, Interesting

At 5 CD's, I don't think many people will download and burn the sucker. RH 7.3 actually wanted to see all 3 CD's on install. I'm really hoping RH 8 doesn't really require all 5 on install though it may depend on which items you install. But *5* CD's is a bit much, dontcha think?

--
-- DuckWing

Re:at 5 cds... by pavera · 2002-10-02 02:45 · Score: 2, Insightful

its exactly the same as 7.3. 6 cds actually, 3 binary 2 source and 1 documentation. 7.3 had the exact same number of discs, so don't sweat it you don't have to download 5 discs to install it. Certainly if people downloaded 7.3 they are going to download 8.

RPM hanging problems by vorwerk · 2002-10-02 02:31 · Score: 5, Interesting

For years, I've been compiling the software on my system and tweaking everything by hand. Lately, I've been spending way too long doing this [my computer is slooow], so I decided to nuke my linux install and put on Psyche.

And I love it. It looks great, and RedHat has done a terrific job. Hurray. ;)

EXCEPT ...

Imagine my surprise when, on my fresh Psyche box, I tried to install xmms MP3 plugins and found that RPM was hanging. No matter what I tried (deleting stale __db locks, rebuilding the rpm database, etc.), I continually had to 'kill -9' to remove the rpm zombie process. I can't upgrade or install new packages without rpm dying.

It turns out that there is very likely a race condition in the signal handling code in rpm 4.1, which ships with Psyche. You may or may not experience this problem, but you can follow the status of the bug at the following URLs:

bug 74726
bug 73097
bug 73134

cheers

migrating by binaryslave · 2002-10-02 02:34 · Score: 2, Insightful

I think that Redhat's idea of making desktop more like XP is fine. If we want to migrate more people into the Linux world, they have to be given an interface that they recognize. Those of us that already know Linux can change what we want. That is one of the beauties of Linux, the infintessimal possibilities the OS has for each person that uses it.

Re:But there must be limits by Karn · 2002-10-02 02:35 · Score: 2, Insightful

Most of the other changes RedHat made to the KD interface I can sort of overlook, it's mostly icons and themes and whatnot. But some things should be off limits out of respect for the people doing all the work.

If this is truly the way people feel, then it contradicts KDE's stated goal, which is to provide a contemporary user interface to average people.

To put things into perspective, let me quote something from KDE's page:

"When it comes to stability, scalability and openness there is no competition to UNIX. However, the lack of an easy to use contemporary desktop environment for UNIX has prevented UNIX from finding its way onto the desktops of the typical computer user in offices and homes."

Now, of course ask different people how deliver a UNIX system to the average user, and you'll probably get different answers as seen here. However, all involved parties here have a common goal: to bring Unix to the average user. KDE's doing their thing, Gnome doing theirs, and Redhat's doing theirs. All parties need to give up the ego and consider the user, something which I think Redhat has done and others need to do. Since KDE and Gnome inconsistencies haven't disappeared on their own, Redhat has to deal with them.

It isn't about making the KDE or Gnome camp happy, it's about bringing Unix to the average user, where silly politics and egos get in the way.

In my opinion, there should be one desktop environment for regular users and one for advanced users. That way regular users all get the same interface, and us advanced users still have the option of 1000 + 1 guis.

--

Why do I keep typing pythong?

Re:But there must be limits by fault0 · 2002-10-02 02:35 · Score: 2

> Don't get me wrong I use KDE all day everyday, and Mozilla is my browser of choice (actually Phoenix is right now), and I do belive in a distributions right to package things as they see fit.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat as you are. I use Konq for file managing and Moz for web browsing.

> BUT to make Mozilla the default browser over Konqueror is quite a slap in the face the KDE developers.

Yes, but on the other hand, I don't see many GNOME developers complaining that Galeon was replaced with Mozilla.

Redhat has the right to do this. It's not that they dislike KDE or it's developers or anything. It's just that they beleive that Mozilla is the better browser right now, and they only want to support one browser. It's nothing new. Redhat chose Netscape over kfm as KDE 1.x's default browser. Of course, Mozilla is much more capable than Netscape 4.x was, and konqueror is much more capable than kfm was, but the analogy holds true still.

Open BeOS? Hah! by hatless · 2002-10-02 02:38 · Score: 2

Let's see. Yeah, BlueCurve uses a similar antialiased bolded sans-serif font family as BeOS ..and MacOS X ..and WinXP. And they gave a much cleaner look to the icons-and-labels elements of GNOME, which shares the interface convention with BeOS ..and OS X ..and WinXP.

Or are you referring to the swoopy blue desktop wallpaper that's similar to BeOS ..and OS X and WinXP?

Let us know if RedHat stole any of your bitmaps. That would be bad--and it would be proof that they really do pay attention to the Open BeOS project. I'm sure it's right up there on RedHat's agenda with AmigaDOS.

Simnply using nice antialiased fonts in that family and designing a set of eye-pleasing color icons only shows that RedHat has a better graphic artist working for them than Ximian and TheKompany do. Which should surprise nobody.

Other reasons why Freshroms rocks by Nailer · 2002-10-02 02:42 · Score: 3, Informative

..for Red Hat users:

Since Fraunhofer `clarified' their licensing for MP3 encoders, Red Hat 8 doesn't include any mp3 encoding or playing tools. Freshrpms have the packages you need for playing mp3s, and even encoding them if you're some kind of sick twisted person that doesnt encode oggs yet
Xine and Totem (GTK2 Xine) packages for playing DVDs and films. Freshrpsm is based in France where CSS itself is illegal (the libdvdcss decoder is therefore fine).
Alsa, so you can let many apps use your soundcard at once, as well as many other davnatges, plus a great 5 minute howto on installing it.
Apt get to install all these funky new Linux packages (RPMs), plus the new GTK version of the Synaptic front end.
Lots of other good stuff I haven't mentioned and to come. Matthias even sometimes does requests.

If you use Red Hat, you need FreshRPMS.

Re:Other reasons why Freshroms rocks by Nailer · 2002-10-02 10:35 · Score: 2

They're complimentary tools. Basically, yo ucan make your own apt-get server, or use various servers on the net to install third party packages that don't come with Red Hat, like lame, xine, mplayer, etc.

I'm completely impressed by nyquil+superstar · 2002-10-02 02:44 · Score: 2, Interesting

I'm using it now, and I have to say, this is the nicest distrto I have ever used. The default themes are good and clean, the fonts look *far* better than anything before it (with the exception of the MS fonts) and the default apps work well. OpenOffice is a tad slow to launch, but past that, the speed overall is far, far faster.
The configuration tools are pretty nice, I haven't spent much time with the server daemon config tools (those kinds of things scare me), but the user environment config tools are nice. I had no problems getting netowrk connections set up and all of my hardware detected fine. I had none of the mouse issues that Eugenia described in her earlier article.
The two things that really stand out to me are (1) the speed. Nautilus fles, it's actually usable now, even on slower(!) 450's like the one I'me on now. (2) The look, it's just plain beautiful, but of course that's a personal opinion kind of thing.
This release is definately a worthy upgrade, and finally something I wouldn't feel somewhat guilty about recommending to my non-geek friends. Oh, and did I mention that it's faster?

Re:I'm completely impressed by fault0 · 2002-10-02 03:26 · Score: 2

> (1) the speed. Nautilus fles, it's actually usable now,

Well, this is because of GNOME 2, not rh8 :-P

> the fonts look *far* better than anything before it

Yeah, it's xft2, which will be in the next update versions of all the major distros.

Thank God by ceswiedler · 2002-10-02 02:45 · Score: 5, Interesting

Thank god at least one Linux company is actually acting like a company and trying to make a profit in a realistic way.

The important thing about Open Source and Linux isn't that Red Hat has to give away their product, nor that they be "nice" to the community by keeping KDE and Gnome separate. The important thing is that no matter what, you know that you can get the source to every (important) piece of the Red Hat operating system. You can replace the kernel, the GUI, the web server. You can examine the code and recompile it yourself.

Red Hat is a company. If you want completely free, volunteer-based stuff, go to Debian. If you want a corporate-style OS, with actual help, support, integration, and consistency, then for christ's sake YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.

Red Hat could really care less if Slashdot readers think that BlueCurve sucks, or that the new licensing scheme sucks, or that the mirrors suck, or whatever. They're in the business of selling copies and support of their Operating System, which is the Red Hat Operating System based on the Linux Kernel and the GNU tools and the X Windows GUI and the Gnome and KDE toolkits / environments.

Personally I think Red Hat should abandon the idea of giving away copies entirely. Sell the damn things. That's what companies DO. The support idea is hogwash. Support is good cash but it won't replace copies sold. Red Hat needed to win acceptance and dominance, and so it gave away binary copies of their OS.

The GPL, thank god, means that Red Hat DOES have to give away their SRPMS, at least to any code in their OS that is GPL'd. Their installer doesn't have to be GPL'd. Their makefiles and build scripts don't have to be GPL'd. They could legally give away nothing but the actual source code they used to build the finished product. That satisifes the GPL, both in letter and spirit.

Personally I think the Open Source community should applaud Red Hat for acting like a company and proving that Open Source doesn't mean amateur, or broke.

Re:Thank God by krmt · 2002-10-02 04:18 · Score: 2

I'm not, nor have I ever really been, a Redhat user but I agree with the idea that Redhat should act like a company. Still, I wonder if you don't understate the importance of the community.

Red Hat could really care less if Slashdot readers think that BlueCurve sucks, or that the new licensing scheme sucks, or that the mirrors suck, or whatever. They're in the business of selling copies and support of their Operating System, which is the Red Hat Operating System based on the Linux Kernel and the GNU tools and the X Windows GUI and the Gnome and KDE toolkits / environments.
I'd imagine that Redhat cares very much about what Slashdot readers think of these things. We are their target market. Who do you think are the sysadmins who will be the biggest supporters of Redhat in the actual workplace? Those who are familiar with it and a large number of those people are on Slashdot. Having the Slashdot readership say good things about Redhat translates directly in to the workplace. This applies to other websites as well. It's called marketing.

Personally I think Red Hat should abandon the idea of giving away copies entirely. Sell the damn things. That's what companies DO. The support idea is hogwash. Support is good cash but it won't replace copies sold. Red Hat needed to win acceptance and dominance, and so it gave away binary copies of their OS.
Redhat does sell the damn things, if you want them. And as for not allowing downloads at all, a big reason Redhat is so popular is because it can be downloaded on to someone's home machine for nothing. This is the best way for someone to learn on their own time in their own way. If Redhat cut out free downloads all together they would lose a large number of their users, which in turn would lead to less support for them in the workplace. Remember, people can always go to IBM or whoever instead of Redhat for support and to SuSE for a boxed product.

Redhat has stated over and over that they're not trying to be the next Microsoft. Hopefully that'll continue, because the second they do try it they'll be dead. They are looking to make a profit, yes, and they seem to be doing a good job at it right now. But one of the most important forces in making a profit is in how a product is marketed. By providing things like free downloads and structuring the OS the way users like Redhat is simply marketing their product.

--

"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
Re:Thank God by aquarian · 2002-10-02 05:40 · Score: 2

"If you want a corporate-style OS, with actual help, support, integration, and consistency, then for christ's sake YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO PAY FOR IT."

"The support idea is hogwash. Support is good cash but it won't replace copies sold. Red Hat needed to win acceptance and dominance, and so it gave away binary copies of their OS."

The support idea *is* hogwash- at least what Redhat calls support. In my experience, the basic level of support included in the price of their software is completely useless- you'll get better, faster, more competent help in newsgroups. I can't comment on their premium support packages, but their basic offerings don't encourage me to spend any more money.

I don't know what you're talking about in referring to integration and consistency- Redhat is generally behind the curve in hardware support, drivers, and being able to set up stuff like Samba easily. As far as consistency goes, Redhat's hodgepodge of crude-as-hell, badly designed, old-style-Unix GUI tools leaves me cold.
Re:Thank God by Papineau · 2002-10-02 06:10 · Score: 2

The GPL, thank god, means that Red Hat DOES have to give away their SRPMS, at least to any code in their OS that is GPL'd. Their installer doesn't have to be GPL'd. Their makefiles and build scripts don't have to be GPL'd. They could legally give away nothing but the actual source code they used to build the finished product. That satisifes the GPL, both in letter and spirit.

The GPL says that if you distribute a compiled version of a GPL'd software, you have to offer the source at the same people. So if RH asked $1000000 per boxed set, and included the source code in it, they wouldn't have to offer their SRPMS for anybody to download. Another thing the GPL says is that if you received GPL'd software, you have the right to redistribute it under the GPL. So if I bought one of those $1000000 boxed set, I could then redistribute the GPL'd content on my FTP server.

Red Hat offers their binary CDs as free downloads, so they have to offer their source code as well (could be only the SRPMS rather than an iso full of SRPMS). But if they didn't distributed freely downloadable isos, they wouldn't have to provide SRPMS to everybody, only those to whom they distributed the binaries.
Re:Thank God by josepha48 · 2002-10-02 06:29 · Score: 2

I agree. I am glad and others should be that Redhat has chosen to GPL their installer and to give away their compilation of packages like they do (download it or get a cdrom from linuxcentral or some other soure).
I think people who may be against this 'unified look' have missed the point. They obviously are NEW to Linux. In the past there were and still are many many different window managers, blackbox, windowmaker, sawfish or mill, "E", wm2, kde, gnome, etc. The problem is that if you have a program writen for one of these then it would in the past look different depending on what window manager you were using. People complained about this! Now RH has found a way to make it so that it does not matter if you choose kde or gnome, but that their os config tools will look like they are 'native' in both. This is what people wanted years ago. For KDE and gnome to play nice. Now I can write a program thanks to thier work in gtk+, or gtk--, or qt and have it run in both kde and gnome and look okay under the theme.
What they have done does not stop you from installing your OWN theme does it? I think this is a good thing and not a bad thing cause now when I get RH 8 I can use the APPS of my chice and the wm of my choice and have things all look like they belong on the same desktop. Oh and don't think I wont change things cause its Linux, and YOU can.

--
Only 'flamers' flame!

AAFonts by DavittJPotter · 2002-10-02 02:46 · Score: 3, Funny

Anyone have a HOWTO link or a quick tip to get all my fonts to be AA under RedHat 8? Mozilla still looks like hammered dogshit.

Thanks!

--
"If there's hope, it lies in the proles..."

Re:AAFonts by Junta · 2002-10-02 05:39 · Score: 2

The guide I use relevant to mozilla.

Fonts that look nice.

All this stuff is general, but I doubt there is any redhat-specific issues, unless they disabled freetype in their build, which would be very stupid in this day and age...

--
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.

GNOME is not default in Redhat 8 by fault0 · 2002-10-02 02:49 · Score: 2

Actually, if you've actually tried Redhat 8.0, you'll see that neither GNOME nor KDE are default. You get to pick one (or both) during the install process. GNOME is listed first, but that's probably because of alphabetical order. The descriptions of both the desktops are nearly identical. Both desktops work equally well.

Debian by mikeee · 2002-10-02 02:53 · Score: 2

It would be really cool if debian could use a P2P network for apt. Take some load off the poor (VA?) sites hosting debian.org, and have a distributed backup if they ever go away...

Would be slower, but still fast enough for most stuff, and the whole P2P-space seems more debiany to me.

Re:Debian by bopal · 2002-10-02 03:04 · Score: 2, Insightful

It would be really cool if debian could use a P2P network for apt. Take some load off the poor (VA?) sites hosting debian.org, and have a distributed backup if they ever go away...

Ever heard of mirrors???
Re:Debian by Glytch · 2002-10-02 03:47 · Score: 3, Insightful

Yay! Even more opportunity for trojans to get into Debian! Sign me up!

Not.
Re:Debian by lightspawn · 2002-10-02 04:56 · Score: 2

Even more opportunity for trojans to get into Debian!

What opportunity? A popular P2P download is typically downloaded from two or more sources. If one of them is malicious, the checksum/signature (which may still not be fully P2P) is corrupt. It's actually more difficult for an attacker to forge a download in P2P (assuming multiple sources) since he doesn't know what part of the file is downloaded from him, and so cannot create a file with the same checksum or try to sign the file with the same signature.

The risk is actually smaller than the chance of one mirror out of the mirror list being compromised.
Re:Debian by evilviper · 2002-10-02 06:05 · Score: 2

Sounds good... After downloading the entire ISO, you find out that it's corrupt because of one small chunk you got from some node.

I'm all for P2P getting into this field, but the technology is too far behind to be funtional at this point.

--
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Re:Debian by Glytch · 2002-10-02 12:51 · Score: 2

Hashes can be subverted by putting one trojan into the P2P software itself. How can you trust that what you're seeing on the screen is true? Sure, you could do a manual checksum of the downloaded file, but there's lots of lazy people out there.

I'm also quite leery of running network programs as root, even if it's just for the installation of the new software package. And don't even bother mentioning chroot jails. They are utterly useless for this situation.

Any crackpot software-update-via-peer-to-peer-network scheme *damn* well better have the client's source code subjected to a full scale security audit. Downloading a corrupt copy of Pop Song De Jour by Boy Band X or Bubblegum Tune #5643 by Slut Of The Week is no big deal. Downloading a copy of OpenSSH with a backdoor added is a (pardon my french) MAJOR FUCKING ISSUE.

In conclusion, I don't want to get rooted, and you're a dick.

Thank you for your time.
Re:Debian by evilviper · 2002-10-02 13:55 · Score: 2

Unfortunately, eDonkey is likely the only exception.

I appreciate the info though... Although I wish eDonkey had:

An open source version (BSD/MIT license)

A non-java GUI front-end

--
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Re:Debian by evilviper · 2002-10-03 17:42 · Score: 2

Hmm, seems to be for Windows, not Unix. That won't do me much good...

--
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Re:Debian by evilviper · 2002-10-03 20:30 · Score: 2

Actually, I think I'll just be sticking with FTP mirrors until other p2p technologies catch up.

--
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant

Re:Screenshots... by fault0 · 2002-10-02 02:53 · Score: 2

It reminds me of Microsoft's .net stylings (in Office.NET, and VS.NET), with even less borders.

On the other hand, I like the font rendering by Xft2, although it still looks blurry compared to WindowsXP. They should turn AA off for most regular point sizes.

Re:But there must be limits by avdp · 2002-10-02 02:55 · Score: 2

I understand what you're saying, but disagree.

I love KDE 3 - I used to be a gnome user before KDE3, I have made the switch and I am unimpressed with Gnome2 so I am not switching back. I used Konqeror (the web browser, not the file manager) for a few hour and decided to forget about it and use Mozilla. Let's be honest, Konq is not much of a web browser, the rendering simply does not work on many many website that both Mozilla and IE have NO problems with.

I think the "slap in the face" you mantion should really be a wake up call to the konq developers: use Gecko. Contribute to Gecko. There simply is not reason for you to have yet another buggy html rendering engine...

Having said all that, they can and probably will continue on work konq. Fine I wish them luck. But don't bitch about RH using mozilla.

Re:Screenshots... by fault0 · 2002-10-02 02:56 · Score: 2

It's xft2. Don't worry, most distros should have it soon.

Re:Screenshots... by evbergen · 2002-10-02 02:59 · Score: 5, Insightful

Hm, a nicer UI, eh? Looking at http://ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/contrib /texstar/screenshots/redhat80/snapshot03.jpg, we have

- preferences, *and*
- server settings, *and*
- system tools, *and*
- system settings, *and*
- control center, *and*
- configure panel.

And you think it should be immediately obvious from these items, that appear in a completely unsorted and ungrouped menu, what they mean and what the distinction is? I must admit the theme looks surprisingly friendly (if not soft), but seriously, this is painful, if not patently absurd.

Is it really necessary to make a difference between Preferences, System Settings, and a Control Center? Between System Settings and Server Settings? And is there any reason why all these should live outside the Control Center? Is there any reason at all to have a Control /Center/ if all the knobs and tweaks are already available elsewhere?

Make up your mind I'd say. If you *desparately* want to supply more than one configuration item, reduce it to 'Personal Preferences' and 'System Settings', a distinction which at least has some meaning for people who already know that different people can use the computer each in their own way, but that some people may control the computer's overall behaviour as well.

The mixing of verbs and nouns in the same list is also horribly confusing. The submenus should get their own group and the rest should be *verbs*, if you want to give the user any feel of predictability at all (*Launch* Control Center. *Get* Help. *Open* Home folder). Or go the other way, with an implicit Start, Launch or Open everywhere, but then please be consistent and call 'Find Files' the 'Search Tool'.

Come on guys, I'm also a C programmer instead of a UI designer, but is it really so hard to avoid making a mess? No wonder even geeks are switching to Macs these days.

--
All generalizations are false, including this one. (Mark Twain)

If you're having that problem by Featureless · 2002-10-02 03:00 · Score: 2

It's because you don't know enough about using P2P to use it well. Try Kazaa-Lite. Whereas I find getting a decent transfer rate from any FTP site (or getting in at all) can be a monster pain, I get instant results and max out my bandwidth every time using P2P for this.

--

Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!

This post is redundant by EvilAlien · 2002-10-02 03:01 · Score: 2, Redundant

... not to mention a few days late.

Red Hat 8 was released on Monday, as covered in Red Hat 8.0 Reviewed.

--
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'

Re:This post is redundant by fobbman · 2002-10-02 03:15 · Score: 5, Insightful

People bitch when /. posts releases the moment that they hit the main server and before the propegate, and then people bitch when they give the mirrors time to be ready for the /. onslaught.

Really, dig your panties out of your ass and understand that waiting a couple of days for the servers to get the new release is a Good Thing.
Re:This post is redundant by EvilAlien · 2002-10-02 16:47 · Score: 2

I don't disagree with that, Cpt. Obvious.
My point is that the story already got posted on the day of the release, resulting in Red Hat's site being almost unusable for most of Sept. 30th and Oct. 1st. The fact that the post was "late" is irrelevant in and of itself. The point that it is redundant, by a matter of a couple days, is relevant.
The mirrors were not given time to prepare for the onslaught. Please try to understand before you comment in such a mindless derogatory way. I realize it would be a major departure from /. standard operating procedure, but change is a <sarcasm>Good Thing</sarcasm>. Nice use of a Jargon File cliche, by the way.

--
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'

Re:I think bluecurve sucks... by Mandi+Walls · 2002-10-02 03:04 · Score: 3, Informative

*sigh*

Well, you're just lost.

Check their graphics guy's site here.

You will notice that he's also the guy who gave linux.com their logos, as well as VA Linux.

In addition to being one hell of a graphic artist, he's also a very talented photographer. Somehow I don't think he needs any inspiration from OBOS.

now go soak your head.
--mandi

the ease of use of windows ?? by ackthpt · 2002-10-02 03:04 · Score: 3, Insightful

Maybe it's because I grew up in front of an OSI 500.
Maybe it's because I spent so many hours of my youth at a VT52.
Maybe it's because I was happy with my Apple ][ and C64 (and as recently as Sunday was playing Seven Cities of Gold on Vice64 and enjoying it.)
Maybe it's because I always kept at least one CLI open on my Amiga desktop.
Maybe it's because I've spent so many years writing applications with simple user interfaces for rapid data access and update.
Maybe it's just me and I've become a curmudgeon and should just move off to the side and keep to myself, aside from the occasional utterance about 'youts dese days.'

Every time I get a new PC or new version of Microsoft I spend hours figuing out how to get it to stop doing annoying default behavior and trying to figure out where sh!t is, and frequently pissed off becuase there's only one way to get at something and it's buried (i.e. you have to know where to look.)

I've never considered Microsoft's implementations of anything to be best in class. More often myself and coworkers have simply given up on shaping applications and interfaces to work to our advantage, because someone who knows better than us, has taken that decision power.

If RH is mimicking Microsoft, I sure as heck hope they don't mimic them all the way, two cruddy interfaces for two different products isn't any kind of improvement in my book.

--

A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar

Re: P2P! (Need all 5 ISO's?) by AKnightCowboy · 2002-10-02 03:05 · Score: 2, Informative

Does anyone know if we need all 5 ISO images? Seems pretty bloated. What do I need to install a running system? I want to upgrade (or reinstall) from RH 6.0.

Why don't you just do an FTP install? Last time I checked that only needed one 1.44 meg floppy disk (at least with Mandrake it does). Then you're only downloading what you need instead of 3 gigs worth of packages you won't ever install. As for the loaded FTP sites just wait a week. Nobody is going to shoot any kittens if you don't upgrade to Redshat 8.0 today. Besides, it's a dot-oh release and probably has tons of major bugs which is typical of major Red Hat dot-oh releases. (5.0, 6.0, and 7.0 were all very buggy IMHO and weren't stable until 5.2, 6.2 and 7.2). Anyway, not a flame, just another perspective. It's a waste to download ISO images to just install it on one machine if you have broadband anyway. If you DON'T have broadband or a high speed internet connection then you're on crack for downloading 5 ISO images over 56k dialup or ISDN. :-)

Debian aint all that... by FyRE666 · 2002-10-02 03:08 · Score: 2

I downloaded Debian (Woody was it?) the other night since I keep hearing how great it's supposed to be. I've also tried SuSE but tend to stay with RH (I guess I just know it better after all these years).

Anyway, it was like a trip through the way-back machine - a 2.2 kernel?! Clunky install and nothing I saw would convince me to change. I guess I could have worked out how to upgrade every single package on there over the next 3 or 4 weeks, but why bother? Maybe Debian will kick some ass if they ever put out another distro, but it's hardly something I'd recomend to anyone.

RH8.0 is really sweet though - the new GUI config tools actually have me using them instead of heading straight for vi, although I think I stick with the text editor on the headless machines...

Three thumbs up for RH8.0, 2 down for Deb.

--
Code, Hardware, stuff like that.

Re:Debian aint all that... by be-fan · 2002-10-02 05:01 · Score: 2

Try testing or unstable. They're misnamed, they work pretty well. Unstable is a whole lot more cutting-edge than either RedHat (except libc's for some reason) or Mandrake.

--
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Re:Debian aint all that... by jedrek · 2002-10-02 05:18 · Score: 2

Actually... I had RH and dropped it in the name of Debian. I don't need the graphical installer, what I do need is a good packet system and for my money, .deb cannot be beat. I can't remember how much software I couldn't get working from source or rpms that I just apt-geted. Replacing the kernel took me like 3 minutes.

I liked the graphical installers in Mandrake and RH too, but when it comes to actually running the machine (masq/fw/ftp/mail server) Debian is just so much easier.

Re:bad idea by fault0 · 2002-10-02 03:08 · Score: 2

Why would Redhat (or, more generally, Microsoft) be scared of OSX? You still need ppc hardware to run it. It's certainly attractive to linux/ppc users, but Redhat users are almost completely x86 users, and most have no intention of buying PPC hardware just for OSX.

Good idea bad implemintation by rppp01 · 2002-10-02 03:10 · Score: 2

I am all for a standardized look, but it seems that RedHat has not quite gotten a look or feel down right.

Look, I love KDE. I use it at home. I love gnome, I use it at work. But I think RedHat should choose just one to focus the corporate desktop on. If they take Gnome, great, if they take KDE, great too. If they take Blackbox, fine.

--
They stuck me in an institution, said it was the only solution, to...protect me from the enemy, myself

Re:Screenshots... by abischof · 2002-10-02 03:12 · Score: 2

Other than Red Hat 8, obviously, are there any other distros that currently or will include it by default?

--

Alex Bischoff
HTML/CSS coder for hire

Re:Honest recommendations please by fault0 · 2002-10-02 03:18 · Score: 2

Easiest would be mandrake.

I would recommend Debian, Gentoo, or slackware, though.

Or if you want a challenge, LFS :-)

Throttled by yerricde · 2002-10-02 03:23 · Score: 2

"hey this sucks it's too slow." Get a clue, dude. Use a real client.

Changing from basic Gnutella clients to better Gnutella clients, to KazaaLite, or to eDonkey won't improve speed if your ISP uses a packet-shaper to throttle all ports but the well-known ports used for ssh, http, mail, news, and the like.

--
Will I retire or break 10K?

Re:But there must be limits by WNight · 2002-10-02 03:25 · Score: 2

But, Mozilla works. That's the big difference. If I open Konq and go browsing it'll likely crash in the first two minutes. Honestly, click, click, read, click, crash. I dunno what the problem was, but in Mandrake 8.2, the last time I used it, it could stay stable enough to use as a file browser.

And why on earth are they still writing a browser? Hello, there's a better alternative that you can bundle for free, and with XUL+etc you can write your file manager in it pretty easily.

Konq was the big reason I went to investigate Gnome. Nautilus is beautiful and seems more functional. (Except for KDE's better support of protocol:// browsing to my camera, smb shares, etc, but that's a seperate issue from the program they display it in.)

All KDE, or Gnome is to me, or should be, are the widget sets and underlying structure. I don't want KOffice with OpenOffice available. Choice is good, when someone would actually want to use what you're offering.

Re:Screenshots... by fault0 · 2002-10-02 03:30 · Score: 2

Mandrake should have it by Mandrake 8.1, Suse (who employs Keith Packard, author of xft) should default to it in UnitedLinux 1.0.

If you can't wait, you can always install gtk-cvs or a patched Qt 3.0 (3.1, which is coming out soon, should have it). Visit Keith Packard's page at http://fontconfig.org/

Re:Screenshots... by fault0 · 2002-10-02 03:38 · Score: 2

Yes, sorry

Bluecurve...Good Idea \ Bad Idea by DeadBugs · 2002-10-02 03:42 · Score: 2

I think a unified interface is a good idea for RedHat to create a standard look for a business desktop.

On the other hand for my personal use it's a bad idea. I like how KDE looks and so I will continue to use Mandrake.

--
http://www.kubuntu.org/

Wow they sure are... by Twister002 · 2002-10-02 03:45 · Score: 2

spending a lot of time just to make Red Hat look like SuSE?

--
"For a successful technology, honesty must take precedence over public relations for nature cannot be fooled." -Feynman

End of the line for my RHCE by jdfox · 2002-10-02 03:57 · Score: 2

If like me you took your RHCE exam on version 6.x, then this is the last version on which your certification remains valid, according to the RHCE FAQ.
Ah well. It's got a better shelf-life than some other certs, and only one of my many employers has ever bothered to check it.

point by point by Jagasian · 2002-10-02 03:58 · Score: 2

Who cares, except employees and stock holders, whether Redhat is making a profit or not.

What is a corporate-style OS, and how is Debian not that style?

What is "actual help support"? And is the help that I get with Debian not support?

"Integration" and "consistency" are two more buzzwords that I do not want to pay for!

I am sure that Redhat actually does care about what the opensource community thinks of their activities. Redhat wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the OSS community.

Not giving away copies of Redhat is a bad idea right now. Redhat has to gain more mindshare and marketshare before they can stop giving away free copies as say Libranet does. But again, not giving away free copies may further alienate the OSS community. That is bad.

The OSS community should not applaud Redhat for acting like a company. I mean, Enron acts like a company, as does Microsoft. The OSS community should and does applaud Redhat for contributing to the further development, improvement, and spreading of opensource software.

Finally, Debian has been proving for years now that Open Source doesn't mean "amateur or broke". Companies are a means to an end. They are not the end itself.

next theme by Sajma · 2002-10-02 04:04 · Score: 5, Funny

It an attempt to look even more like Windows, the next RedHat release will incorporate the new "Bluescreen" theme...

Take a closer look at MS2k's feature by Planesdragon · 2002-10-02 04:06 · Score: 2

It's actually done pretty well, for what it is.

* Clicking the double-arrow on the extreme of a menu (toolbar, drop down menu, start menu) will expand it, with the rarely used items "lowered" so you can tell what will be there normally.

* Items don't re-arrange their order, they stay where you put them, just hiding . (For the most part--file folders in the start menu being the obvious exception)

* Holding a menu open for 10-20 seconds will cause it to expand, just as if you had cliked the double-arrow.

* You can turn the feature off if you really don't like it.

The abilty to "pin" an item chiefly used for graphical feedback (like toolbars) would be nice; maybe that's part of their (un)planned obselecense.

In the right direction, but don't forget Mandrake by InodoroPereyra · 2002-10-02 04:10 · Score: 3, Offtopic

I would like to say something that I hope is understood correctly. I love to see RH moving to usability (in addition to stability). I love RH as I consider them very useful members of the free software community. And I think there is little doubt that they are the most popular commercial distro.

Now, that doesn't mean that redhat == linux. I am a bit disappointed to see that now that RH takes the step to the desktop (which IMHO they should have taken long ago, when they are actually preaching against Linux adoption in the desktop marker) everybody seem to be discovering that Linux can run on desktops. Hello, have you tried mandrake ?. Mandrake also has dektop integration, my menues look the same in GNOME and KDE. The task oriented menues pick the best apps wherever they come from. It really feels integrated. But it looks like RH invented the concept. And this is simply not true.

I tried myself Mandrake a week ago with 9.0. It blew mi mind. Really really much more useable than anything else I tried. I switched my Laptop from RH 7.3 to ML 9.0. Then my home desktop. Now I'll switch my office workstation. I am configuring in 15 seconds with "point'n click" things that took me several minutes (if not hours) of HOWTOs and RTFM's and what not. Almost everything gets autodetected. SMB mounts, NFS mounts, hardware, it is really amazing.

In general, the improvement in usability I feel in the transition RH 7.3 -> ML 9.0 is similar to the one I experienced back in the day when I switched Slackware -> RH 6.0

I am not flaming RH, they do a damn fine distro. I am just saying, if you are looking for usability, may be you'll find rewarding to give Mandrake 9.0 a shot. The install will take no effort and little time. If you are looking for mission-critical stability, I cannot tell because I haven't used ML long enough to compare.

Re:So where's the BitTorrent link? by gpinzone · 2002-10-02 04:19 · Score: 2

Distributing RedHat through the only P2P program that has a chance of actually working...and it only works with IE? I like the irony!

Re:Alternatives to Binary distro's by ichimunki · 2002-10-02 04:21 · Score: 2, Interesting

BS! Binary distros save everyone a lot of CPU time and make for more stable systems, since the packages are usually well-tested, etc. The average user is not going to notice the performance gains from custom compiles. They would probably be better off just buying a faster computer or more RAM first.

And comparing a binary distro to Windows is just insulting to the intelligence of your readers. Let me know when Microsoft starts offering source via FTP on a 2nd CD in the boxed set, ok? In fact, Gentoo protects your freedom less than Debian GNU/Linux does by facilitating a lot of binary-installer packages (the default Java VM being the main one). However, they obviously "get it" and this is not meant to be a slam.

Finally, on older hardware, recompiling all the software is a big time sink... and probably a wasted effort. But I have to say I'm proud to have installed Gentoo as the only OS to ever run on my new homebrew Athlon XP-based desktop. Something very satisfying about putting a system together from parts and then compiling the whole system from source code. But it's probably not for everyone.

Congratulations to Red Hat on another milestone release.

--
I do not have a signature

Re:Screenshots... by blakestah · 2002-10-02 04:25 · Score: 2

Many Linux users state how Microsoft isn't an innovator, yet Linux is constantly trying to imitate them! What's that trite saying about the sincerest form of flattery?

This release is simply the latest RedHat release (and note that RedHat is NOT the same as linux or GNU/linux), and it seems pretty certain they wanted the interface to be a combination of Aqua and XP for fairly obvious reasons - new users will feel comfortable. But there are LOTS of other options. The default is just a "lowest common denominator", someplace you are unlikely to find much of anything mind-blowingly innovative.

There are MANY innovative projects in linux, or free/open software. Like ghostscript, for example. Or apache. Or BIND. Or sendmail/qmail/postfix (prolly 95% of all the MTAs are free/open software). Like Slashcode. Like bash. Like the kazillion windowmanagers. But the default user interface from RedHat looks and feels a lot like XP which looks and feels a lot like Aqua which looks and feels a lot like MacOS which looks and feels a lot like Windows95.

Even Windows 98 managed to get nice looking fonts, so why does Linux have so many problems with it?

Because in addition to having trademarked names, Helvetica and Times Roman are copyrighted. In the USA, you can copyright a program that generates a typeface (i.e. a TTF file), but you can't copyright the look and feel of the typeface itself, as that's considered a "useful object" more suited to a design patent than to a copyright. (Most patents last 20 years.) In the EU, you can copyright both, giving one foundry[1] a monopoly on Helvetica for life plus 70. Most Linux distributors don't have the money to license the official versions of popular fonts, even for use in the "non-free" section.

[1] foundry n. a publisher of typefaces.

--
Will I retire or break 10K?

Re:RedHat is like Microsoft by rseuhs · 2002-10-02 04:43 · Score: 2

So can you explain why all commercial non-RedHat distributions were able to make inroads in countries where they were dominating, while RedHat completely failed at doing so?

Seems like all non-RedHat distributions achieved that without bastardizing KDE.

So what you describe as a problem doesn't seem to be a problem at all.

ok this is getting out of hand by carpe_noctem · 2002-10-02 04:50 · Score: 2

5 cds? FIVE? Jesus, wtf do you really need 5 cd's for? At least windows comes on one cd (at least I think it use to....2k did; I don't know about XP)

--
"Quoting famous computer scientists out of context is the root of all evil (or at least most of it) in programming." - K

Re:ok this is getting out of hand by carpe_noctem · 2002-10-02 05:41 · Score: 2

Ok, that makes sense. I can live with 3 cds....I'm kind of curious as to why disks 4 & 5 don't contain "srpm" in the filename...perhaps I was just on a bad mirror.

--
"Quoting famous computer scientists out of context is the root of all evil (or at least most of it) in programming." - K

Re:Screenshots... by be-fan · 2002-10-02 05:06 · Score: 2

Get Freetype2 from CVS and use Postscript fonts. They've made a bunch of improvements to the PShinter to make things purdy.

--
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...

Re:First looks. by Junta · 2002-10-02 05:29 · Score: 2

Regarding the cut/paste mozilla issue... I have not run RedHat 8.0, I only run gentoo now. When I compiled mozilla using gtk2, I had the same issue and also had a lot of plugin issues. Does anyone know if this version shipped by redhat is compiled against gtk2 or something?

I recompiled against gtk1 for plugins, copy/paste, and stable galeon embedding, so I no longer have those problems.

--
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.

gripes about purchasing 8.0 by brer_rabbit · 2002-10-02 05:31 · Score: 2

I thought I'd do my part and actually buy 8.0 from Red Hat. I bought 6.0 a couple years back, it was decently priced.

So I'm at redhat.com reviewing my purchase for 8.0. First thing I notice: UPS Ground shipping isn't an option! The least expensive option is $11 second day air. I don't *need* this in two days, I'd rather save a couple bucks and have it shipped ground. Hell, I'd settle for carrier pigeon if it'd be cheaper. The second thing: I'm being charged tax on my order. I thought tax wasn't charged on cross-state commerce..?

Combined that up'd my order by $15 that I didn't want to spend. That's $15 which won't even make it to Red Hat's pocket.

Red Hat is doing the right thing by 0x0d0a · 2002-10-02 05:42 · Score: 2

They kept getting expensive irate "customers" who bought CheapBytes CDs and wanted the customer install support that only comes with Red Hat's $50 commercial product.

I think that's pretty generous. They're letting people use all the software they made, but they've gotten fed up with support requests from confused people who bought "Red Hat" CDs from CheapBytes. If you want that support, slap down your five tens.

--
May we never see th

Re:Compiling mplayer (was: Save your bandwidth) by 0x0d0a · 2002-10-02 05:44 · Score: 2

If you want the very minimal out of mplayer, yes. If you're trying to get it to run w/o blowing CPU cycles out the window (like me, with a PII/266):

Try to compile, find what isn't enabled, track down missing libraries, some of which have probably never been used by any other software package. Figure out how to build and install each. Get avcodec from CVS (as per mplayer documentation), manually copy it into the mplayer directory, build, find out that it doesn't compile, obtain snapshot, manually copy that in and compile. Tell ./configure in the mplayer package manually about all the locations of libraries that have decided to install elsewhere from where mplayer is looking for them.

Download a font. Run script that generates font description files and font files, which you manually copy to your home mplayer directory. Set up rc file so that proper hardware acceleration is used. Compile and install kernel module for x-based matrox card. Realize that said kernel module is incompatible with devfs -- write a patch, submit, compiled the fixed version. Tell devfs about the permissions on said device by writing a few more lines manually to its config file. Ensure that mtrrs are set up on your X install (not an issue anymore with XF86 4.x era stuff). Realize that non-root (even suid to root) cannot use the RTC for timing, thanks to stupid check-for-root code in the kernel -- start su'ing every time you want to play a movie. Figure out how the hell to get the thing working with alsa .9 branch and how the hell to make it play out your *second* sound card instead if your first.

Now we can start finding codecs. Download various versions of divx4linux/divx5linux, discover that only one works properly, another simply causes segfaults, and the last plays properly most of the time but tints everything green and occasionally can't understand frames. Download Windows codecs, figure out how to tell mplayer *not* to use the Windows codecs by default to keep speed at a sane rate (but you want 'em if you're working with a codec with no native support). Set up permissions on said things.

Note: I haven't even bothered trying to get a GUI working for this, which would involve skins and whatnot.

Mplayer is a sweet piece of software, but boy is it a PITA to build properly. I think the only piece of software that I've spent more time trying to get working properly is iptables.

--
May we never see th

Desktop integration was a *Debian* first... by aquarian · 2002-10-02 05:47 · Score: 2

"Mandrake also has dektop integration, my menues look the same in GNOME and KDE. The task oriented menues pick the best apps wherever they come from. It really feels integrated. But it looks like RH invented the concept. And this is simply not true."

Nope, it's not true. But Mandrake didn't invent it either. It came from Debian.

In fact, it sometimes didn't work in earlier versions of Mandrake, so there were plenty of newsgroup/BB posts about how to undo the "Debian menu hack."

Re:Desktop integration was a *Debian* first... by InodoroPereyra · 2002-10-02 07:40 · Score: 2

I wanted to confirm your statement, but I can't find the other two Debian users to ask them. :(

You mean 2 million. According to the 130k registerd users at the Linux Counter, Debian users are 13% of the estimated (by the Linux Counter) 18 million users. That places them in 3rd place, after RedHat (30%) and Mandrake (19%)

Redhat 8 v Mandrake 9 1 dufus's opinion by jd142 · 2002-10-02 05:51 · Score: 3, Informative

I played with Mandrake 9 last week and I downloaded and installed RedHat 8 on Monday of this week. So I thought I'd share a few thoughts about the differences in the distributions.

I've used Mandrake more, so I'm more familiar with its menu structures and way of doing things, but I hope my comments are objective. Or at least that my subjective opinions are biased for other reasons than my experience with Mandrake.

Both the installations were pretty easy. The only slight edge I would give to Mandrake is that if you are adding or removing packages it will tell you immediately what other packages will be added or removed. With Redhat, you select your packages, then it tells you all at once what dependencies are required. My preference would be a combination of these two approaches so that I don't have to say ok constantly, like on Mandrake, but I can easily make a choice about whether I really do want to get rid of efax if kde-utils depends on it. For example.

Another point against the Mandrake install is that I don't have the option to put in a grub password if I choose grub as my boot loader. And I couldn't find it in the preferences after install either.

For the desktop user, neither one of these is really an issue.

After install, I found Mandrake to be quicker and more responsive. I don't know if that is because Mandrake is using i586 compiled rpms and Redhat was 386. My test computer at work is a pII 300 with 196 megs of ram.

At first I thought it was a kde vs gnome problem, but Redhat felt slower even with kde.

As far as the look and feel, Mandrake had a reasonably consistent look to it for both gnome and kde. Yes, the themes were different, but that isn't a big deal. The menu structure, desktop icons and wallpaper were the same for both gnome and kde. While I like the idea of a common theme for both gnome and kde and think that RedHat could have executed it better. They did a good job, but I'm still up in the air on whether it was necessary.

The Mandrake menu structure is more complicated than RedHats in that it has more choices and more submenus. The upside is that the labels are more specific, including a really basic "what can I do now" menu item for beginners.

Mandrake also has a winner in the Mandrake Preferences application. Very well done. RedHat's configuration tools are just as impressive, and I prefer their theme and icons, but they aren't as convenient.

The only big problem I had with RedHat was that Apache did start. A quick check of the logs showed that it couldn't resolve the domain name (dhcp_ipaddress as assigned by the dhcp server) but once I added it to /etc/hosts, it worked just fine. Mandrake's install of apache didn't have this problem.

It's really a toss up as to which one I like. So I'll have to try suse next.

Final evidence:Slashdotters are a bunch o' wussies by Qbertino · 2002-10-02 05:56 · Score: 2

I cant believe my eyes just reading the comments!

"Mandrake X is better than RH y, but SuSEs green is prettier"
"I can't get no mp3s running *sob*, but I got a candy blue rippoff of Mickeysofts rippoff of KDEs rippoff of Apples Aqua"
"I wanna pay for software or else it ain't a professional OS"... ...and on and on and on - blah, blah, blah, jada, jada jada...

Why are there so few people noticing that, for instance, default KDEs usability sux like a bag of leeches compared to, let's say E or FluxBox?
Probably because you have to compile the stuff b4 u can use it.
Seems like I'm actually growing out of /. ... Geez, what a bunch o' pansies.

--
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca

My RH8 exp by rosewood · 2002-10-02 05:57 · Score: 2

Well, I upgraded from 7.3 to 8.0 using the upgrade in the installer, first time I ever did this.

It was kinda weird since I didnt get to pick and choose anything, since I did already in 7.3 I guess. Anyhoo, I was really suprised to see apache 2.0. I havent seen this mentioned anywhere and it was a but to re-do my httpd.conf file, including some weird issues with gallery and php nuke.

I have always used gnome and I like what rh has done and I doubt ill be downloading ximian any time soon, except maybe for redcarpet which I dig a lot more then up2date. I switched over to KDE to see what it looks like here (I thought kde 3.0 look pretty yet cluttered for my tastes by default). Unfortunatly, I cant get gnome to come back up in desktop switcher : I say use gnome, it says restart X session, I restart vnc, and im back in KDE. This, I dont like.

I like the ~./fonts. I carried over my win32 fonts (tahoma, comic sans ms) and loaded them up. The fonts do look pretty. I dunno how other distros are comming on this, but I think the ~./fonts thing is really handy, just needs to be noted that it can be done. It would be nice is if ALL APPS interacted with this. I opened up Open Office and it didnt have these fonts for me :

Oh, the whole not labeling cds 4-5 kinda pissed me off. Im glad to see source RPMS, but since I cant specify to install with those (at least, I dont see how) and I really have no use for them, I dont wanna download and burn.

As for mirrors, I got on the indiana ftp and pulled in @ 2mbit or so. Not bad at all. I see where I can create a kickstart and do a network ftp or http install, I just wish I woulda known how to do this before. This should be a well documented feature on how to just have an ftp w/ the rpms and be able to install remotely. Oh well, :

--
The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!

Re:More on UI... by rhavyn · 2002-10-02 05:57 · Score: 2

You haven't even installed Red Hat 8 if you're complaining about these things.

1) Applications->System Settings->Packages
It's got a list of all the packages provided by Red Hat. Check the ones you want and it prompts you for your install discs and installs them.

2) The Start Here link on the desktop lets you configure just about everything from a GUI.

3) Download an RPM, double click it and it prompts you to install it. That's all there is to it. No path choosing, no InstallShield, just a "Do you want to install. Yes/No" and it goes and installs it if you click yes.

4) Put in a cd and its automounted and a CD icon appears on your desktop and a file manager window pops up with the files on the CD displayed (it even prompts you if you want autorun to run).

In conclusion, go install Red Hat 8 and you can have basically everything you're asking for.

Re:bad idea by fault0 · 2002-10-02 06:10 · Score: 2

> Linux had 10 years to try and come up with a viable stable platform of a desktop.

Uh, Linux is not the same as KDE or GNOME. KDE and GNOME run on a variety of Unix and Unix-like operating systems, including OSX.

As for "stable platform of a desktop", there have been many. KDE, GNOME, CDE, xfce, etc.. They are all pretty stable here.

> The only ones that come up with a plaform kde and gnome are unorignal. Apple is the only one to step forward with a desktop that is both stable and forward thinking.

Forward thinking doesn't always offer users. Microsoft was quite unorginial with Windows and they have more than 90% market share of the desktop market.

Re:You're all forgetting by Junta · 2002-10-02 06:32 · Score: 2

Though I have not used 8.0, I would venture to say this time it may not be the case. 5.0, 6.0, and 7.0 each included some core component that was still considered in pre-release state by their respective developers. When they shipped with pre-release glibc and/or gcc, they caused a lot of problems, in the name of not worrying about it later. gcc-2.96 (the 7.0 fiasco) was meant to make use of the long overdue enhancements in the gcc3 tree and provide a good base to grow on. Instead, it was a buggy piece of crap (even ignoring the 'bad code' it wouldn't compile). Same when they tried the same stunt with glibc. This time, no critical components seem to be released before their time. Glibc, gcc, and most everything is actually at an official 'stable' level according to their developers. If my experience with Gentoo 1.4rc tells me anything, it is that the versions RedHat are using could be up to snuff.

Of course, now they ventured into patching Qt/GTK/KDE/GNOME for a consistant *feel*, and even a theme that only changes looks (which they also provide) can cause crashes in the toolkit when implemented in code, so maybe on a Desktop level there may still be worries.

I might try RedHat 8.0 on my desktop system, or Mandrake 9.0, or switch to Gentoo (my iBook has been a very convincing case for Gentoo...). No matter the way, it looks like the releases are much more timely this go around...

--
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.

Re: P2P! (Need all 5 ISO's?) by mnordstr · 2002-10-02 06:33 · Score: 4, Informative

You only need the first 3, CD 4 & 5 contain the source code...

Re:Midnight Commander - still? by Junta · 2002-10-02 06:36 · Score: 2

Before you damn Nautilus to hell, try the version in Redhat 8.0 (i.e. the Gnome2 version). Nautilus was unusable in Gnome 1.4.x, but the 2.x versions are unbelievably faster. I used to always go to the nice speed of rox, but now I run nautilus most of the time....

--
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.

Re:Midnight Commander - still? by Junta · 2002-10-02 06:41 · Score: 3, Informative

I would bet it would be excluded since RedHat 8 is Gnome2-centric, and, AFAIK, gmc was not ported to Gnome2. I think they even go so far as to compile mozilla with Gtk2, which, at this point in development, is a bad idea.

--
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.

things need to change.. by gol64738 · 2002-10-02 07:02 · Score: 2

in my opinion, RedHat is doing the correct thing. there is nothing wrong with them taking open source software (kde, gnome, etc) and modifying them to fit their look and feel for their OS release.
i'm tired if hearing the KDE team moan and whine about RedHat modifying their source. if this is such a problem, perhaps KDE should close up their code?
ya ya, call this flamebait or whatever, but before modding it that way, think about it and you'll know it to be true:
based on my experience meeting the gnome team, reading their monthly summaries and hearing them speak on newsgroups, i feel that the gnome team is a group of very professional people, and it shows.
however, after meeting KDE teammembers, reading their posts and reading their press releases, it's hard for me to imagine some of them as being anything but crybabies that whine and scream about every little things that doesn't taste sweet.

they clogged the net -red morons by Splork · 2002-10-02 07:10 · Score: 2

i was trying to ftp normal non-evilhat related stuff last night and found that 50% of the ftp mirror sites that i tried were refusing connections.

redhat -really- needs to use a p2p app such as bittorrent or jigdo when they do their initial releases to prevent disrupting people who could care less about a distribution that doesn't manage package dependancies. they're being irresponsible.

Re:Rethat is for weenies by Sj0 · 2002-10-02 07:31 · Score: 2

Linux is for weenies. Real men code their own OS using nothing but a hex editor.

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It's been a long time.

First experiences by Micah · 2002-10-02 07:50 · Score: 2

Installed it yesterday.

I've been a KDE user for years. Logged into Gnome 2.0, figured out the keybindings that were different from KDE, and I *still* haven't even logged into KDE since installing Psyche! I think I can live with this. I'll try Psyche's KDE, so whether I stick with Gnome remains to be seen.

Attempted to switch to Evolution. The SECOND freeking e-mail I received crashed the mail component of Evolution every time I clicked on it! I was like "uhh, no." Back to Kmail.

Started KDevelop. Told it to index the KDE/Qt documentation on setup. The ht:/dig process just kept going and going and going, spidering over EVERYTHING on my freeking filesystem! I eventually had to kill it.

Maybe I should have stuck with 1024X768 resolution instead of upping it to 1280X1024. It's a tad flickery, but not bad. I have a G400 and a 19" monitor.

Other than that things are working fine.

Jesus, slashdot. by zerocool^ · 2002-10-02 08:06 · Score: 2

2002-09-30 14:53:50 RedHat 8.0 is publicly available (articles,redhat) (rejected)

And I'm sure I'm one of thousands. Hey, let's not post the release until we have downloaded and tried it out! Don't want to slashdot ourselves off of ftp.dulug.duke.edu!

~w

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sig?

Starting to change my mind a bit... by jejones · 2002-10-02 09:16 · Score: 2

OK. I find now that xmms is behaving strangely, not appearing on the display and not playing the sounds. OK, time to look at what version of xmms I have, maybe dump it if I have an older version...but RH 8.0 hides the nice GNOME and KDE GUI layers around rpm from me, and the "packages" menu item it now gives one leads to a dumbed-down program that is fine for people used to the Windows "Install/Remove Program" menu item on the Control Panel, but which will not give me the information I need and that the previous GNOME and KDE programs for package management made trivial.

I am not as happy as I was this morning.

Some more Psyche comments by IamTheRealMike · 2002-10-02 09:21 · Score: 2

Well, I've just been playing with RedHat 8, in VMware unfortunately so it was a bit slow, but I thought I'd write some comments on the new UI stuff anyway.

Firstly, I think once again RedHat are clearly setting trends here. Mark my words, BlueCurve is good stuff and the other distros will be doing something similar soon. Actually, the credits for giving Linux a serious facelist first should really go to Connectiva, who sponsored the Crystal icon themes and a truckload of artwork for KDE, but that's beside the point .

One thing you realise pretty quickly using Psyche though is that the method BlueCurve uses to make things look the same is the wrong way. By wrong way, I don't mean to criticize RedHat, as right now it's the only way. However, the stock RedHat install places for instance the OpenOffice icons on the panel. Click them, and you're greeted with a Windows 98 style theme. Where did BlueCurve go? Well obviously we know that OOo uses its own widget toolkit, which there isn't a version of BlueCurve for. What's really needed then is some kind of standardised theming system, so you can write a theme once and have it run on many different widget toolkits. FreeDesktop.org would be an ideal place to do this.

The second thing that strikes you is that, at least on the surface, KDE and GNOME are so similar that there is little point having both. I pretty quickly reset GNOME2 to its default layout with a menu panel, and I think it's a shame that RedHat uses the KDE layout. For new users at least, KDE and GNOME compete based on their desktop interfaces. By making them the same, you remove a reason for having them both there.

To sum up, I think RH8 is a step in the right direction, but in some cases they went overboard. Using the same themes is a good idea. Making the inital setups identical isn't such a hot idea, even though it is easy to change them around.

Finally, there is a comment way up at the top that criticizes the layout of the preferences/settings. Yeah, that sucks it's true, but really it's about the only thing I can think of that does UI wise in Psyche. Really, don't knock it until you've tried it. Overall, it's very easy to use indeed, and there are GUI applets for virtually everything. As a long time SuSE user, I must admit I'm being seriously tempted to switch. Perhaps I'd rearrange the menus slightly, change the installed apps a bit, but I'd have no hesitation in showing this to people and having pride in it - look, this is Linux, see what we can do.

Re:Screenshots... by blakestah · 2002-10-02 09:39 · Score: 2

I'm not arguing about those innovations. I'm asking for someone to show me a UI environment that doesn't look like Windows! And I'm not talking about a skinned window manager. I'm talking about something really innovative unlike all the other desktops out there.

Here is a collection of window managers. There are some for all flavors. First, notice there is one for just about every other operating system standard. One for Plan9, one for Amiga (and IceWN), one for NeXT (actually, several). I know - no innovation.

Then see Enlightenment Windowmanager, which added anti-aliasing and alpha-blending BEFORE Windows and Mac did (no alpha-blending for them), as well as non-regular shaped widgets for your windows. Then pwn and FluxBox with tabbing on all windows.

But User Interfaces HAVE NOT been innovative for much of anything for about 20 years since Mac came out looking a lot like Xerox PARC. But, see the list, there are lots to go from. My favorite are the minimal memory consumption ones, like Blackbox and pwm and twm, but there is something for everyone. Unlike Windows or Mac, where you can have any flavor you like as long as it is vanilla.

If not copyrights, then patents by yerricde · 2002-10-02 09:49 · Score: 2

There are lots of fonts in this world, and SOMEONE who uses Linux could have designed a 'nice' one.

Then what is an office suite supposed to do when somebody sends you a .doc file that uses Helvetica and Times Roman?

The real reason fonts look shitty is because the font HANDLING is bad.

The good font HANDLING is patented. Without the hinting methods in Apple's patent, the FreeType software can't legibly render TrueType outline fonts at the small point sizes used for screen display. That is, unless FreeType 2's auto-hinter has improved dramatically since I last saw it.

--
Will I retire or break 10K?

Warning: ERROR ON INSTALL by augros · 2002-10-02 12:32 · Score: 2

I don't know about anyone else's install, but when putting 8.0 on a pretty standard box, I got and error from a corrupted zlib package, killing the install entirely. And this was AFTER I wasted my time "checking the install media." There goes my home directory.

Re: P2P! (Need all 5 ISO's?) by packeteer · 2002-10-02 14:19 · Score: 2

Your right and I agree with you but downloading by ftp CAN actually be more of a bandwidth hog. I downloaded the ISO's to mandrake 9.0 because i plan on installing it on many computers and maybe more than once on a single computer. Usually i mess something up on an install and its nic to be able to restart.

--
unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep

Debian aint Redhat by krmt · 2002-10-02 15:27 · Score: 2

Debian is really not trying to do the same thing as Redhat or SuSE or Mandrake. They're really in a class of their own in the Linux world, closest to the BSD's if anything.

Debian is not known for newest and flashiest. Generally, unstable can have the newest stuff well before any of the other distros should you choose to run it, but the focus is not there. It's also not on having GUI config tools. Instead it's on having a really well thought out and technically adept system. You simply don't get a better package upgrade system out of an RPM based distro. Yes, there is apt for RPM, but that's the not the same thing as having a well defined policy that all packages in the system must adhere to. You get an excellent open bug tracking system and individual package maintainers who are responsible for their own packages.

Everything official is be done via the various mailing lists making the entire development an open process from start to finish. And, of course, there's the fact that it's entirely community based. You and anyone else who wants to put in the time and energy can become a Debian Developer. This is incredibly powerful, and it allows a sense of community that I find lacking in most other Linux camps. Of course, it leads to the incredibly vocal minority of Debian users who think it's the be-all, end-all of computing, but that doesn't make it any less a compelling work.

A lot of what Debian emphasizes is under the hood type things. People rave on and on about apt-get, but they tend to ignore things like the fantastic menu system (consistent menus in all window managers) and the various subprojects like Debian Jr. and Debian-Med. Plus the ability to choose which version of Debian to track (stable, testing, unstable) is a wonderful feature.

Debian doesn't have GUI configuration tools, this is true, but it does have very powerful debian-specific tools like dpkg-reconfigure that no one seems to talk about outside of debian-specific channels (IRC, mailing lists). They require reading some docs, but that's the price you pay right now for being able to use them. There's nothing stopping anyone from writing a GUI tool for these or appending the functionality to dselect or one of the other apt frontends, so there's no reason to suppose they won't go in later. Plus Debian has a real feel to it that goes beyond the skin-deep level of having unified themes for KDE and Gnome. There's the wealth of information in /usr/share/doc, where you always know a lot of answers are to be found. There's the kernel-package tools which put even customized kernel in to the dpkg database (and make kernel compiles a little easier to boot). There's the complete lack of items in /usr/local until you put them there yourself. There's the wonderful alternates system. All these things give Debian a coherency that other distros don't seem to have. It all comes down to what you want in a distro. I always know where to go in debian because it's so coherent. I never felt that way in Redhat or Mandrake. It's just a question of priorities. If you really want GUI tools, Debian isn't the right place (yet) but if you want one of the best systems and collections of developers on the planet, Debian is a good bet.

--

"I may not have morals, but I have standards."

Re:And yet... by evbergen · 2002-10-02 22:45 · Score: 2

True. That's what I use as well. However, in a lot of cases the move from the frontends to editing the configuration directly will be a one-way one. Most frontends are too stupid to provide correct r/w support to the data they manage. Their internal representation is king, and they merely 'export' that to the config files they manage. IOW, the management tool contains less reading intelligence than the application it manages.

In short, if you use vi on /etc/*, the management tools' internal configuration DBs will get out of sync. You may be able to fix a config problem, but it creates a mess for the hapless user who likes to use his friendly tools again after you're done.

Of course, some configuration files are more like scripts and those will always be hard to read and represent by graphical tools, while those tools will still be easily able to generate script templates. I guess the distinction between a 'template generation tool' and an actual 'configuration management tool' should be presented more clearly, with the latter label being only applicable to *true* r/w tools, that can read all files that would be also considered valid by the actual application.

For the latter, config files resembling scripts are out, but config files that are essentially trees of attribute/value pairs should be no problem.

(It would be nice btw if the filesystem would offer a way of managing them properly by efficiently handling lots of small files. Then we can have a uniform representation of those config trees without going down the slippery slope of the filesystem-in-filesystem nonsense offered by the windows registry. open, read, write, close are good enough -- why would you need a separate reg_put_key and reg_get_key and so on?)

--
All generalizations are false, including this one. (Mark Twain)

Re:iPhoto by foobar104 · 2002-10-03 11:04 · Score: 2

If your 4500 is that hard to use, maybe you need to find another camera. I bought my girlfriend a CoolPix 775, and she hasn't had any trouble with it at all.

I don't think it's true to say that people don't put much value on ease of use when talking about things like cameras. I think maybe you just got stuck with a camera that's harder to use than it needs to be.

Re:iPhoto by foobar104 · 2002-10-03 14:17 · Score: 2

People buy cameras, camcorders, and other electronic devices all the time based primarily on features & price, with hardly any consideration to ease of use. The UI is almost an afterthought.

I think you're over-generalizing. Here you are complaining about how your camera is hard to use. You said you even have to carry the manual around with you. It sounds to me like you bought your camera based on features and price, but that you should have given more consideration to ease of use.

Don't assume everybody else makes their decisions using the same criteria you use.

Re:Yes, yes you did... and yes you are... by tomhudson · 2002-10-10 03:41 · Score: 2

My guess is you haven't been doing this for over 2 decades, so you haven't had to watch people struggle with each new user interface that Micro$hit comes out with.

That being said, my point was that when someone purports do be doing an "in-depth" review, it should be more than just an appraisal of the new eye candy.

Best regards, Tom :-)

Re: Lighten up, svp. by tomhudson · 2002-10-10 09:22 · Score: 2

If you didn't make the comment, then maybe it explains why this whole thing doesn't make sense.

I suspect that there may have been a problem w. slashdot's posting comments, and may have interleaved parts of yours and someone elses, in which case we may both be the victim of a bug.

As for your continual name-calling, yeah, I'm tired of it, too. Maybe you should re-think what the 'i' in 'BiOFH' means.

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