Commercial Spaceport In Texas

Scothoser writes "CNN has this article on a rocket that was launched on a ranch site near Stockton, Texas. Their hope is that it will become a commercial launch site for anything, as long as it is legal. The major reason for this move is that using NASA launch sites are prohibitively expensive. This way someone can launch their home-made satellites for much less than approaching NASA. Now I am just waiting for the HOW-TO on a Linux-run micro-satellite!"

Comments

Applications for launch from overseas?

[RichMan]

Is the launch site within 600 miles (range of Scud missle) of President Bush's ranch?

Re:Applications for launch from overseas?

[Vrallis]

I'm sure it is, but if you use a SCUD from Fort Stockton to the ranch, it will probably hit Pheonix instead =)

Re:Applications for launch from overseas?

[Syncdata]

Is the launch site within 600 miles (range of Scud missle) of President Bush's ranch?
I'd just like to take this opportunity to say hello to the NSA, who are undoubtedly quite interested in any communication dealing with SCUD+"White House". Howdy fellas!

wow

[Hi_2k]

Now maybe the backsync boy has a chance of getting up there after all... And whos up for launching the worlds first space-time capsule?

Re:wow

[domninus.DDR]

wow that dash really confuses me.

DIY

[costela]

Why not make your own HOW-TO?
Next step: first Tux on the moon!

Re:DIY

[napoleone]

Better learn to speak Chinese if you want to be the first Tux on the moon.

Legal?

[Cyno01]

What wouldn't be legal? Its space, its like international waters. I didn't sign a treaty saying i wouldn't launch any space based weapons platforms. Who's gonna stop me if i wanna launch my weather control machine (evil laugh).

Re:Legal?

[Emperor Igor]

Batman?

Re:Legal?

[Gerry Gleason]

I would think that is the point. As long as it isn't a weapon, or anything else that would be dangerous to people on the ground, I would think you can do it. The certainly could legislate more restrictions, but as far as I know, safety is the only consideration.

Re:Legal?

[(startx)]

you've still got those nasty crypto export regulations to deal with, and as you pointed out, space is not the US, so if your sending out your weather control system, better make sure the controls have some very weak, legal encryption.

Re:Legal?

[dirvish]

It might be legal to have your weather control machine space but maybe it is illegal to launch it from Texas. Don't mess with those Texans...they'll electrocute ya'!

Re:Legal?

[domninus.DDR]

I would think too, but it risks moderation.

Re:Legal?

[Meridun]

As funny as it is, this is actually pretty much the heart of why it costs so much to launch satellites: any rocket capable of putting something into orbit is realistically an ICBM.

Near the anniversary of Sputnik (which I think was last week), I'd remind everyone that it was this fact that was why Sputnik was so frightening to Americans; if the Soviets could put a beeping piece of metal into orbit, they could just as easily have made it come down near us instead.

Therefore, any company that is capable of putting cargo into space is very likely to find itself under strict regulation, due to the potential for that cargo to be miss orbit either accidentally or purposely.

Re:Legal?

[Anonymous Coward]

but if you think about it, commerical aviation isn't that much different with regard to this potential hazard. planes crash (or can be crashed on purpose).

-ac

Re:Legal?

[TotallyUseless]

ol sparky has been retired. we rely on lethal injection now. what a drag eh?

Re:Legal?

[Telastyn]

True, but you'll still have to put the rocket through US air to get from Texas to space, hence within US Territorial waters as it were...

Re:Legal?

[haystor]

The other popular alternative available in state in shooting them while taking them into custody.

Re:Legal?

[Sn4xx0r]

What wouldn't be legal?

The rocket would have to pass US airspace on the way to international space. Therefore it has to obey US airspace regulations. Anything launched that does not comply with US airspace regulations could be considered illegal.

Oh, and intending to run KaZaa from space might be frowned upon as well :)

Re:Legal?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"The moon belongs to the United States..."

(It's a Simpsons reference, so don't mod me down.)

Re:Legal?

[theCoder]

That's why there is an FAA (at least in the US; I'm not familiar with other countries' equivalents). Air trafic is pretty heavily controlled -- pilots are trained and licensed, flight plans have to be filed, radar stations track most every plane in the air. Commercial avaiation isn't actually all that different in this regard at all.

Re:Legal?

[Guppy06]

"What wouldn't be legal? Its space, its like international waters."

First you have to get there. When last I checked, All of Texas and a good deal of the waters off its coast is under US airspace. If you want to go to space through US airpsace, you have to follow FAA and DOD rules

Re:Legal?

[Meridun]

Correct, yet not as dangerous.

Very few commercial planes travel above Mach 1. In order to get a package into orbit, it has to be going quite a bit faster. For example, geostationary orbit (orbiting once every 24 hours at 22,300 mi altitude/ 35,000 mi from center of earth) requires the satellite to be moving at about 9,000 mph. Given that Mach 1 is about 750 mph, that means that our satellite is traveling above Mach 12.

Frankly, that's the real threat of an ICBM. It's extraordinarily difficult to shoot down something moving at 12 times the speed of sound and your decision time to engage is very small. Therefore, you are correct that Commercial Aviation does have this type of hazard, but I think you'll agree that the magnitude of danger is quite different.

Re:Legal?

[lommer]

Not at all...

The 9,000 mph figure you're quoting is the escape velocity - an instantaneous velocity at the surface of the earth which, without any external acceleration save that of gravity, should theoretically get you into orbit.

However, this is as ridiculously simplistic as it is stupid. In reality, one only has to achieve slightly more than 9.8m/s^2 acceleration and maintain that for the duration of the trip to space. Granted, the shuttle uses a LOT more than just 9.8 m/s^2 acceleration, but it still never reached speeds of 9,000 mph.

Re:Legal?

[arwez]

hmm. if US Airspace is the problem, one could conceivably try to launch from international Waters into international space. Technically rather difficult I would imagine, but it would bypass US law. ;)

Re:Legal?

[John Sullivan]

In reality, one only has to achieve slightly more than 9.8m/s^2 acceleration and maintain that for the duration of the trip to space.

Actually, any positive acceleration no matter how small will do - though the higher the more efficient the launch will be. This means you have to generate a force of at least 9.8 N per kg of rocket at the surface though.

Granted, the shuttle uses a LOT more than just 9.8 m/s^2 acceleration, but it still never reached speeds of 9,000 mph.

Indeed, but the shuttle is not an ICBM. The difference being not the launch, but the landing. The shuttle has to land in one piece and keep its human cargo in one piece too. The ICBM may well go up at the same speed, but on the way down you want it to be going as fast as possible precisely because you want to give the target as little time as possible, so you make it aerodynamic and throw it down from low earth orbit.

As for the figures, to maintain geostationary orbit you need to travel at just under 7000 mph. You wouldn't want the rocket to go anywhere near that on the way up - because you don't want it to reach or pass geostationary orbit, you want it to come back down again. However on the way down it it going to be going a lot faster than Mach 1.

Re:Legal?

[Idarubicin]

The 9,000 mph figure you're quoting is the escape velocity - an instantaneous velocity at the surface of the earth which, without any external acceleration save that of gravity, should theoretically get you into orbit.

9,000 mph is actually a pretty conservative ground speed for an orbiting vehicle. Probably right for geostationary orbit (I haven't checked the math) but low for low earth orbit. The space shuttle, for instance, orbits at a velocity of about 28,000 km/h--just shy of 20,000 mph.

Plus, you get a whole pile of potential energy back when you descend from orbit. That said, a big piece of hardware like the shuttle (typical landing weight eighty to one hundred tons) will gouge out a big crater if it crashes from orbit, but not as big as you would expect.

If it makes an uncontrolled reentry, there will also be uncontrolled heating, and all we'll get hit with on the ground will be little tiny shuttle bits. Some of them will be pretty hefty, but not that bad. If a shuttle goes through a normal reentry, quite a bit of speed is bled off before it hits the ground--it's no worse than an airliner crash as far as damage on the ground. There's no eighty-ton block of metal hitting the ground at 20,000 mph (six miles per second)--just an airliner-sized block moving at less than the speed of sound. (Bad, but not unimaginably scarily bad.) Also, it's costly to put weight in orbit--so there won't be many tons of flammable aviation fuel waiting to ignite when a crash occurs.

You can bet your ass the FAA (among other agencies--probably the military will be interested) will sit up and take notice of commercial space flights. Anything that looks like it has applications as a weapon will never make it anywhere near a launch pad.

Actually, the FAA will regulate this sort of thing anyway--they're responsible for the air that any commercial space flight has to pass through to get away from earth.

Re:Legal?

[Lunkwill_Fook]

Well, yes, it IS difficult to shoot down such a fast moving object (by the way, Mach numbers are actually meaningly in space considering the fact that sound doesn't move in space), but wouldn't it make more sense, if they are firing nukes from the US, that they just use something like... I dunno... TRUCKS?

Re:Legal?

[some guy I know]

Actually, any positive acceleration no matter how small will do

Actually, any positive velocity, no matter how small, will do.
However, the smaller the velocity, the further away from the Earth the vehicle must travel in order to achieve orbit.

Re:Legal?

[sketerpot]

If you want to use encryption in space but still launch from the USA, how about this: you launch your satellite without strong crypto, but with SSH or something similar (perhaps telnet if SSH is too strong), and when your satellite gets into orbit, radio up some crypto software from a computer in some place like Canada. And there you are!

Re:Legal?

[John Sullivan]

Actually, any positive velocity, no matter how small, will do.

And to get this positive velocity you must first produce a positive acceleration. True, you can reduce power *a little* as soon as you're moving, and keep doing so the higher you get as gravity weakens. But remember that to maintain even constant velocity you need to keep burning fuel to maintain that 9.8 N per kg force (at the surface), and that the longer it takes you to get up there, you will need vastly more fuel to complete the launch.

However, the smaller the velocity, the further away from the Earth the vehicle must travel in order to achieve orbit.

If you require *stable* unpowered orbit, yes.

If you're prepared to keep burning that fuel you can maintain a powered orbit at any reachable velocity. For as long as your fuel lasts.

Re:Legal?

[pixelpusher220]

hmm. if US Airspace is the problem, one could conceivably try to launch from international Waters into international space. Technically rather difficult I would imagine, but it would bypass US law. ;)

True, but first you'd have to build it...I doubt very much that Uncle Sam would take kindly to your building an ICBM on his soil without his permission.

So now you have to build it somewhere without such rules or rulers who care much about it.

When it all shakes out, commercialization of space is actually going to be
promoted far more quickly and efficiently by the Russians than NASA. (and yes passengers will die in the process, but then look at early aviation)

Which seems to me, to be more than a little ironic...

Re:Legal?

[lommer]

"
In reality, one only has to achieve slightly more than 9.8m/s^2 acceleration and maintain that for the duration of the trip to space.

Actually, any positive acceleration no matter how small will do - though the higher the more efficient the launch will be. This means you have to generate a force of at least 9.8 N per kg of rocket at the surface though.
"

Well, ok. Technically you are right. But in order to obtain a positive acceleration, one must first overcome the -9.8m/s^2 acceleration. (assuming you are using a vector pointing up into space and not down into the earth). Thus, for all intents and purposes, one must still achieve 9.8m/s^2 in order to lift off. Once one obtains 9.8m/s^2 acceleration, one only needs a tiny impulse to float all the way up into earth orbit.

Re:Legal?

[John Sullivan]

But in order to obtain a positive acceleration, one must first overcome the -9.8m/s^2 acceleration.

No. The rocket is sat on the launchpad. Its acceleration and velocity are both zero. There is a 9.8 N downward force exerted on it by gravity for every kg of total mass (which is counteracted by an equal and opposite upwards force on it by the ground.) You have to provide an upwards force in excess of that exerted by gravity to raise the acceleration, and therefore the velocity, above zero. The rocket never has an acceleration of 9.8 m/s2 unless you just happen to be providing an upwards force of 19.6 N per kg. (Most rockets tend to exceed this point rather rapidly. 1g acceleration would be a highly inefficient way to get to space - you want as much as the cargo can take.)

Re:Legal?

[Bazzargh]

9,000 mph is actually a pretty conservative ground speed for an orbiting vehicle. Probably right for geostationary orbit (I haven't checked the math)

... yup, you sure haven't checked the math. Or the english, for that matter.

Re:Legal?

[Idarubicin]

Yep, you're right.

Congratulations! You've located the single dumbest remark I've yet made on Slashdot. I blame lack of sleep for the error. Consider the phrasing suitably amended.

Too bad the moderators are probably finished with this topic; I probably could have snagged a +1 Funny.

Linux?

[dacarr]

Why not? We radio hams have all sorts of crap in space already. =^_^=

Oooh!

[razormage]

Perhaps now Lance Bass can finally make it into space!

Re:Oooh!

[kingofnopants]

1.Launch lance bass into space
2.????
3.Profit!!!

Re:Oooh!

[sconeu]

No... it's

1. Launch Lance Bass into space
2. There is NOOOO Step 2
3. There is NOOOO Step 3
4. Celebrate

Re:Oooh!

[Sn4xx0r]

You forgot:

0. remove heatshields for reentry from vehicle

Liability issues could be enormous

[Ryu2]

What if your private rocket has a malfunction and goes slamming into a major city, killing thousands? With space technology so new compared to all other forms of transportation, I'm guessing that it would be an insurance nightmare, I think, for any private individual or even single company to afford.

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[halftrack]

Without backing this properly up ...:

1. I'm sure there is a large, unpopulated area surrounding the launch site.

2. The rockets are thoroughly tested and secured, if something does go wrong it probably just blow up on ground or mid air.

3. They've probably thought a lot of it and can probably be 99.99% sure it won't happend (maybe the rockets has got self destruct functions.)

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[Titusdot Groan]

Liability is probably less than for commercial airlines -- they are not "flying" over any populated areas so the risk is pretty low.

Like most people you are forgetting that insurance is one of the few industries run entirely on logic and mathematics -- their actuaries calculate the risk and the cost and multiple it out to get your premium.

That's why hunters in Canada can get a couple of million dollars in liability insurance as part of their OFAH membership -- it only costs the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters a couple of bucks per *random* member ...

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[treat]

99.99% sure it won't happend

That's probaly how they planned it out, also. Some executive said "we need to be 99.99% sure our rocket won't crash into a major city, killing thousands". So, only one in every 10000th flight results in such a disaster.

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[Warped-Reality]

That's the thing - when NASA launches a rocket, they have a very high concern for safety. They take all of the precautions to make sure none of that happens. When Joe Shmoe launches his Linux based satellite, who knows if he even _thought_ about safety?

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[ErikZ]

Isn't the helicopter newer than rockets?

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[Mononoke]

What if your private rocket has a malfunction and goes slamming into a major city, killing thousands?

Look at a map. There's not a major city within 100 miles of Fort Stockton, Texas. Cape Canaveral is much closer to major metro areas than Fort Stockton ever will be.

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[Captain Nitpick]

I'm sure there is a large, unpopulated area surrounding the launch site.

As someone who has driven through Fort Stockton, I can personally say that it is about as far from anywhere as you can get and still be on a US interstate highway.

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[IamNotWitchboy]

only one in every 10000th defective rockets results in such a disaster.

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[perfessor multigeek]

Yeah, it's uninhabited, but that's what R.H. Goddard said when he set up his first test site. And his second. And his third. That's what they said when they built the landing area for the New York Marine Air Terminal (now within La Guardia Airport, surrounded by apartment buildings) That's what they said when they built JPL in what, *Pasadena*?.
In other words, okay, so it's empty. How do they insure that it *stays* empty?
Personally I thought the Beal Aerospace idea of building in Guyana was great. The whole damn country has fewer people in it then, say, Dallas, and the entire economy is the size of the average American large town's. If you have a problem, just buy half the province, cash up front, and employ the rest.

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[mesocyclone]

It has a low population density, but it is *far* from unpopulated! Don't forget all the Texas nationalists hiding out in the Guadalupe Mountains nearby!

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[mesocyclone]

Cape Canaveral launches over water! Range safety destroys the vehicle before it can get over land.

Vandenberg likewise launches over water.

White Sands launches over a military area where they can prohibit entry.

Fort Stockton, OTOH, is landlocked with no place to create a completely safe range.

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[WolfWithoutAClause]

By the time a rocket gets anywhere near a city it's already burnt most or all its fuel- you don't take off near a city in the first place; and rockets burn most of their fuel very early on.

Also the amount of fuel onboard a rocket is typically about the same as a 767 in fact, and aeroplanes can carry most of it right into the heart of New York, as you will have seen, but rockets can't do that.

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[spaceyhackerlady]

Look at a map. There's not a major city within 100 miles of Fort Stockton, Texas. Cape Canaveral is much closer to major metro areas than Fort Stockton ever will be.

For range safety purposes 100 miles is nothing. The permissible launch azimuths from Cape Canaveral are set by Newfoundland to the north, and Brazil to the south. Fort Stockton, on the other hand, launches right over the biggest cities in Texas.

Vandenberg has a limited range of launch azimuths, but since they can launch due south without any danger of hitting anything (look at a map), they are the preferred site for U.S. launches to polar orbit.

...laura

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[mbourgon]

You haven't been to Fort Stockton, have you? The only thing they have thousands of is jackrabbits.

Of course, I used to drive through it, heading to El Paso. Considering what a speed trap it used to be, I can only imagine the police licking their lips... after all, imagine what kind of speeding ticket they could give a rocket!

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[Guppy06]

"What if your private rocket has a malfunction and goes slamming into a major city, killing thousands?"

That's why the US DOD requires that any and all space launches from the US have to be able to self-destruct into peices smaller than some threshold I don't know off the top of my head. Think of the various Delta II launch failures.

Besides, although I don't know what lattitude this site is at, the only major city that could be under their launch path is maybe Orlando, FL. And the rocket would probably be too high/fast to hit that target only a few seconds after launch.

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[perfessor multigeek]

Thank you. You have an excellent point. Now that you mention it, the shuttle abort zones are half way around the globe, aren't they?
So, I say again, when is a private launch company going to go out and build a facility in Guyana? I know that their government was up for it. Though then again, the facility going up in Tonga does kinda serve. It's just very far away.
Rustin

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[Syncdata]

Yes it would be expensive insurance wise, but I doubt that this company is going to be aiming rockets to pass right over El Paso. Keep in mind, if this company were to trim even 1% off the cost of a launch, you've got major savings already.
Insurance companies stand to make a huge ammount on this, should one actually take the initial plunge. Keep in mind, insurance companies make money every time something doesn't go wrong. As long as this private spaceport handles itself in a meticulous fashion, possibly hiring ex-nasa engineers, or ex-CCCP engineers for that matter, this endevour could stand to make large dollars for the company, as well as any insurance companies that may back them.
Companies choosing to fly "Air-Private" simply will have to accept that that extra cheapness comes with the price of being that much more careful.
Personally, I want the US to be the first to take the full on private space-plunge.
Yes, I did read Ben Bova's Privateers, and yes, it did warp my mind.

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[addaon]

Yeah, but at Cape Canaveral, you have to worry about hurting fish, and stuff. Here it's only Texans.

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[DNS-and-BIND]

Reading your comment, I was thinking about how fifty years ago, someone would have substituted the word "Negroes" for "Texans". That's hilarious.

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[PD]

That threshhold must be larger than the shuttle SRB's, because when Challenger was safetied, the SRB's were nullified by removing the nose caps. The remaining fuel burned out producing zero net thrust.

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[Idarubicin]

Like most people you are forgetting that insurance is one of the few industries run entirely on logic and mathematics -- their actuaries calculate the risk and the cost and multiple it out to get your premium.

Of course, there is a little bit of black magic involved in predicting just what fraction of commercial spaceflights will blow up on the pad, and how many of them will land in major cities and kill thousands of people. I don't actually think that the latter is a particularly probably event, but deciding just how improbable is a decidedly nontrivial task. Blithely saying that actuaries "calculate the risk" glosses over quite a bit of guesswork. I imagine that they just try to guess high, but really...

On the other hand, rockets are in many ways safer than airliners. During launch, they're in the middle of nowhere-failures cost money, but only the replacement cost of rocket and pad. No multi-billion-dollar class action suits. Rockets carry range safety charges to allow safe detonation of the craft if it goes anywhere near anyplace it oughtn't go. By the time a rocket reaches a populated area, it probably has also staged at least once, and is carry quite a bit less highly explosive fuel.

Worst case scenario: An uncontrolled commercial rocket hits a heavily-populated area shortly after launch. Net result: lots of people die. But it's not any worse than what happens when a commercial airliner crashes shortly after takeoff in an urban centre--do you know how much fuel is aboard a fully-loaded 747 at takeoff? Know how much one weighs? At least a rocket doesn't have hundreds of passengers to kill.

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[aiabx]

No, it's different. If Texans feel they are being unfairly treated, they can move to New Mexico. Negroes didn't have the choice of crossing the train tracks and becoming white. Secondly, it's funny, because Texans are (inexplicably) proud of being Texans. The laws of comedy tell us that when someone is puffed up with pride and strutting around, it is funny to deflate them, either with a pie in the face or a joke at their expense.
What you should have said was that seventy years ago, someone whould have substituted the word "Jews" for "Texans", and we could invoke Godwin's Law and get back to our doughnuts and coffee.
-aiabx

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[IPFreely]

they are not "flying" over any populated areas so the risk is pretty low.

NASA Picked the Florida site for several reasons. One of the most important is that the launches go east, out over the ocean. If something fails, it falls onto NASA land or into the water. Before every launch, they clear the launch path of boats for safety. The idea is that NOTHING is in the launch path during a launch.

Stockton Texas may not have many people downwind, but there are still some. Where there aren't people there is still private land. If a rocket falls in the middle of a cow pasture, the rancher is still going to get mad.

The specific risk may be low due to relatively low periodicity of launches (compared to airline flights) and empty terrain, but it still has much more potential dammage landing a flaiming rocket there than in the ocean.

They should have picked somewhere with an easterly view of an ocean.

On another note: Another reason NASA choose Florida is that the further south you launch, the better boost they get from the Earths rotation. The prime launch site would be on the equator. Private launch sites on the east cost of Brazil would be the best to save fuel.

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[DNS-and-BIND]

It's still bigotry.

Plus, you can take the boy out of Texas, but you can't take the Texas out of the boy.

Re:Liability issues could be enormous

[DeputySpade]

In other words, okay, so it's empty. How do they insure that it *stays* empty?

Um... Launch rockets there. *grin*

NASA sites expensive...

[dacarr]

Well, leave it to the US Government to charge exorbiantly high prices just to shoot something up into the air.

Re:NASA sites expensive...

[GodLessOne]

Shooting it up is not the expensive bit.
Not having it come back down is what you are paying for.

Old News???

[razvedchik]

I just made a space station last night for $125,000 while playing Sim City 3000.

Now if the aliens hadn't come and zapped it up in their flying saucers, I wouldn't have to rebuild it today.

*sigh* Being mayor is hard.

Re:Old News???

[orkysoft]

"Give us McNeal, or we will raze your major cities with our anti-monument lasers!"

This isn't new

[wyopittsa]

According to this article there is a spaceport in California that has been launching since the year 2000. Does anyone know anymore about it?

Redkneck hangout?

[Anonymous Coward]

This sounds to me like the next redkneck hangout.

Well cledus, grab us a six-pack and we'll take the truck down and launch up a few satilites

At least they will have something to do besides shooting road signs and/or broken down vehicles in their front lawn.

Re:Redkneck hangout?

[KrancHammer]

yeah yeah... Texas = rednecks. Blah blah trailer homes blah blah wal-mart, ad infinitum
Good one, Jeff Foxworthy

Re:Redkneck hangout?

[Guppy06]

And you'd have to go to Texas to see this? Apparently you haven't met some of the people living in the interior or central Florida... :)

Re:Redkneck hangout?

[DNS-and-BIND]

Stop being such a bigot, or we'll take away John Carmack, and you'll never see another revolutionary FPS again, misspelling-boy.

Neighbours

[pilich]

Our neighbours complain when our dogs bark too loud. I wonder what they would say if we started launching rockets?

Re:Neighbours

[Ozymandias_KoK]

What, launching rockets at the neighbors? They'd probably be pissed off, but if done properly they wouldn't really have time for it. Everybody else would probably be pissed off in that case. Build a LOT of rockets, just in case.

Feature-full spaceport?

[MrEd]

Cost-saving measures at this new privately-owned spaceport will include an abbreviated launch sequence - no longer will T-minus start at two days, instead Joe will stand next to the launch plunger and count to three.

No NASA frills, no NASA gimmicks! Sign up now!

Re:Feature-full spaceport?

[arwez]

Someone I know is the PR Manager for ESTEC (ESA) in the Netherlands... She told me about a conversation she had with the head of the Russian Spaceagency about 10 years ago.

He apparently said that the difference between the NASA and the russian is that instead of the detailed Launch sequence the NASA uses: "In Russia it's GO when I say GO: :) True story :)

A space port out in the desert!

[stevarooski]

Excellent! I hope they add a cantina. Also can't forget to renovate docking bay 94.

In addition, I hope they can keep those pesky jawas out. They shouldn't serve their kind there.

Re:A space port out in the desert!

[Ozymandias_KoK]

It's droids they didn't serve, not Jawas.

Err, by that I mean the non-"it's a cookbook!" method of serving, of course...

More than two spaceports in United States

[WolfWithoutAClause]

There's also a spaceport in Oklahoma, and the state gives tax breaks for people who move their rocketry stuff there. Launch licenses are also somewhat easier to obtain. I happen to know John Carmack was considering doing some of his stuff there.

Re:More than two spaceports in United States

[ikluft]

Yes. Some states are trying to open various spaceport concepts to attract what is currently a fledgling niche in the aerospace industry working on commercial launches.

JP Aerospace who did Saturday's launch in Texas also did the inaugural flight at Oklahoma's spaceport (a former Air Force base at the town of Burns Flat) in March with two high-altitude balloons. One carried meteorology instruments for Oklahoma Univ to 100,000 ft. The second released at 95,000 ft about 550 paper airplanes made by Oklahoma school kids.

I'm a JPA member. I was there as part of the crew in Oklahoma. I drove both payloads back to the launch site in my truck. Unfortunately, I couldn't get the time off work to do the Texas flight or I'd be there now too.

Re:More than two spaceports in United States

[jpbostic]

The Oklahoma location isn't just any old runway...try the fourth longest in CONUS, IIRC. Check it out . This thing is a monster (13,503 ft). I've personally been in a small aircraft taking off and landing on it. I'm surprised that the big air freight and shipping companies haven't snatched up space there (it's just a few miles off I-40), let alone rocketeers.

Re:More than two spaceports in United States

[WolfWithoutAClause]

Neat. Saw a talk by your group at Space Access 2002. Love the pongsat concept, it's very clever, and it's on just the right side of that insane/genius divide ;-)

Cool!

Re:More than two spaceports in United States

[jefflinwood]

Fort Stockton isn't exactly the hippest place on the planet. I think it's 200 miles from San Antonio, and 200 miles from El Paso on I-10 in the middle of the extremely flat desert. It's a town of 10,000, and I have no idea what the local industry is beyond sketchy motels, dairy queens, and gas stations.

Although they do have the country's fourth largest vineyards, St. Genevieve (sp?) for some cheap plonk (6 bucks a liter)

yay for them

[ehlo]

This is an excellent idea. The government controlled [nasa] launch sites want a small fortune ($1mil+) to jetisson a can of coke into space. These private foundations can only cost a fraction of that.. and im sure more of these privately owned sites will spring forth around the globe pretty quickly. And as we all know only with competition can something really be accomplished. Nasa has proven that without due such all they can accomplish is launch dates in the 3000's. A round of applause to the people of Rancho de Stockton.
Props to Gene Lyda for letting them use the land free-of-charge!

You know...

[Moonshadow]

I wonder if, for a certain price, you could shoot various people you don't like off into the voids of space. Now THERE's a business plan.

"Want a certain someone to disappear? Call 1-800-ASTRONAUT - the perfect birthday or anniversary gift!"

They'd make millions.

Re:You know...

[Sn4xx0r]

Be careful what you wish for. There might be someone out there that wants your nick to become fact :-)

Re:You know...

[bobdotorg]

So maybe now we can get rid of that N'Sync guy once and for all.

Linux MicroSat maybe...

[OmenChange]

But no way I'd get on a Linux based shuttle.

DIY Astronaut: "Houston, I'm running out of oxygen! Having trouble breathing. Why can't I get the air scrubbers to help make the air more breathable?"

Houston: "Patches are welcome."

Re:Linux MicroSat maybe...

[ahooton]

DIY Astronaut: "Houston, I'm running out of oxygen! Having trouble breathing. Why can't I get the air scrubbers to help make the air more breathable?"

Houston: "Hey, you've got all the RPMs you need up there already! First, check the dependencies on air-scrubber.2.4.16-20, and be sure you have air-scrubber-lib.2.4.14-4 loaded first, which is on CD #3, and...

Re:Linux MicroSat maybe...

[Anonymous Cowtard]

More lke:

DIY Astronaut: "Houston, we have a problem."

Houston: "RTFM!"

Re:Linux MicroSat maybe...

[sconeu]

That's why you run Debian GNU/SpaceShuttle!

# apt-get install air-scrubber

Re:Linux MicroSat maybe...

[(H)elix1]

But no way I'd get on a Linux based shuttle.

DIY Astronaut: "Houston, I'm running out of oxygen! Having trouble breathing. Why can't I get the air scrubbers to help make the air more breathable?"
Hey now, this is Linux we are talking about...

Houston: You are missing glibc-kernelheaders. RTFM, and try again.

Re:Linux MicroSat maybe...

[isorox]

lol

Clippy: "It looks like you are trying to scrub your air...."

For those who want to know more.

[halftrack]

www.jpaerospace.com

Alien WiFi network

[jukal]

how long does it take before someone starts shooting Wifi access points in the sky, with free guest logins for any martians passing by. Anyway, does someone know how much is a launch going to cost? With all these odd things sold at ebay nowadays - you might actually make a fortune by selling virtual hosts hosted in the space.

Re:Alien WiFi network

[mpost4]

I don't think this would work well, being that WiFi is an unlicensed radio freq, the power is limited to those device and after so much of a distance you lose quality in the transition, and even if you could pump up the power you would probably will still need a beam antenna (if not a satellite dish). I am sure you could get packet radio going but then you still need to get a ham ticket.

Re:Alien WiFi network

[Sn4xx0r]

Right. Scare of aliens by offering them Britney Spears through free WiFi P2P. That'll keep us safe.

Re:Alien WiFi network

[Martin Spamer]

free guest logins for any martians passing by

Set me thinking, I guess this makes Seti StarWalking/StarChalking ?

Re:Alien WiFi network

[Martin Spamer]

Set me thinking, I guess this makes Seti StarWalking/StarChalking ?

And I guess by Nokia standards that makes SETI bandwidth thieves ?

Re:The name of the town is Fort Stockton

[p24t]

The words in italics are a direct quote from the person who submitted the story. The poster's own misguided comments are in a regular font, though in this case there weren't any. Any misspellings or mistakes in italics are from the submitter, though I'm sure Scothoser never meant any disrespect to the town of Fort Stockton. And if he did, I'm sure he could've come up with something a bit more clever, like all the redneck jokes that are sure to ensue.

"cleared for takeoff"

[ikluft]

Many people who are working on aspects of reducing costs of space launches would like to dispense with the countdown entirely. It isn't routine enough until we can get it down to "cleared for takeoff" issued by an air traffic controller.

Legal? FAA?

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought the FAA more or less controlled the skies, more or less, even over privately owned land. Rocketry included. Did they get waivers? Furthermore, I thought the launch vehicle also had to be "approved" by them. This is unlike some other launches covered on /., where the site is government run and is largely a testing ground or it's a small hob, or they got an excemption for that particular launch.

Carmack's info (armadilloaerospace.com, if I recall) had some information a while back (I haven't read it for about 8 months now) about some difficulty getting permissions from the local FAA. They were talking to folks in Oklahoma, last I heard. Did something suddenly change re the FAA?

Or are these people just doing this thinking it's legal because it's on private land?

I was there. The Facts:

[Dr. JJJ]

I'm a member of JPA (JP Aerospace) and had the honor of attending this event. The launch went perfectly and we had some fun chasing and recoving a high-altitude balloon.

The only other interesting thing that I could provide that you won't find elsewhere is that the rocket motor was slightly stronger than an 'N'. (I am not sure what this impulse equals in Newtons. Maybe someone else can provide that).

John Powell is a great guy

[PhantomHarlock]

JP Aerospace is a great little company, partially run by volunteers. Their main specialty is extremely high altitude balloon platforms (edge of space) from which they can conduct experiments and launch rockets. John does a lot of work with kids and education, including taking up "Pong-Sats", which are ping pong balls cut open and stuffed with what ever the kids want to put in them, sans live animals. One person put some digital camera memory in it with all the bits set to zero, and then when it came back got a very accurate radiation measurement by counting all the bits that had flipped.

I had the pleasure of meeting John at the last Space Access Society meeting in Arizona and talking to him for several hours about high altitude photography from balloon and kite platforms.

---Mike

armadillo

[Kallahar]

Carmack's Armadillo Aerospace (god, I'd love to go work for them :) tried to launch in Texas but couldn't get approval. They had to drive 6 hours to Oklahoma which is launch-friendly (if you give manufacturing preference to OK companies). There are many places that are offering alternative launch locations to NASA, but it's still tough to get approval.

Links: Armadillo Aerospace Log Entry and The Oklahoma Space Industry Development Authority

Re:armadillo

[Viadd]

The reason why Oklahoma is in favor of cheap space and Texas throws regulatory roadblocks in front of it whenever it can is here. Once you have your snout in the federal trough, it is hard to pull it out.

Re:I was there. The Facts:

[owendelong]

Dr. JJJ -- An N motor is between 20,480.01 and 40,960 newton seconds. Slightly stronger would be something more than that and probably at the low end of the O (40,960.01 - 81,920 newton seconds) range. If I remember correctly, the ML launches with a full N staging to an M. I don't remember the total installed impluse, but I'll ask JP next time I see him.

Re:The name of the town is Fort Stockton

[rfmobile]

Someone beat me to it. It's Fort Stockton (about 200 nautical miles east of El Paso).
You wouldn't say "Knox" when you meant "Fort Knox", would you?
I don't care who's mistake - it just needs to be corrected.
mod +1 please

Linux Cosmonautics HOW-TO

[gacp]

What I want is the HOW-TO for a Linux-based orbital beam weapons platform.

Oh, wait! May be I should write the HOW-TO myself...

After all, what better way to fight The Evil Empire(TM) than with an Imperial Battle Station?

``Mr. Tux---you may fire when ready.'' :-P

screw linux...

[seinman]

where's my microsoft-run micro-satellite? oh, it bsod'ed when we were trying to launch it? figures.

You guys are about 40 years late with this story

[the eric conspiracy]

Now I am just waiting for the HOW-TO on a Linux-run micro-satellite!

Amateur satellites are nothing new. Hams and AMSAT have been putting satellites up since the early 60's. Right now they have about 20 operational satellites in orbit. Linux based software is quite popular in the Ham community, and plays a big role in AMSAT operations. Satellite Software

The HOW-TO's :

Davidoff, Martin, The Satellite Experimenter's
Handbook Newington, CT: The American
Radio Relay League, 1984.

Jansson, Richard, Spacecraft Technology Trends
in the Amateur Satellite Service, Ogden, UT:
Proceedings of the 1st Annual USU Conference
on Small Satellites, 1987.

bad location!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's stupid to put a space launch facility in Texas. Especially a commercial one.

If you launch from close to the equator, you get a much larger initial velocity, and it's free. Free! You can carry a larger payload or use less fuel with your rocket.

When the French started up Ariannespace, they put it French Guyanna, very close to the equator. Ariannespace has about half of the commerical satellite business.

Re:bad location!

[Nurgster]

Arianne have nothing on these guys when it comes to launch locations close to the equator.

they've converted an old oil rig into a launch platform and tow it out to the launch site...

Re:bad location!

[Guppy06]

On the other hand, places like Texas and Florida have the advantages of being able to put whatever you want to have thrown up into space into the back of a truck and simply driving it down to Texas or Florida. Just about any place else and you'll have to find a ship to bring your stuff out there, and unless we're talking about Hawaii or a US posession/territory, you'll then have to deal with import/export regulations, which may or may not include tariffs/duties/etc.

Just because it's somewhat cheaper to launch from lower latitudes doesn't mean it's also easier to reach the launch sitess down there. Name one country on the equator with a half-way modern trasportation infrastructure.

Re:bad location!

[lommer]

There's some northern parts of Australia that are fairly close. And Singapore is pretty stable too. Though its infrastucture isn't the best, Malaysia isn't a half-bad option either. India also fits that description too.

Re:bad location!

[Da Fokka]

On the equator you'll get about 1500km/h for free, in texas about 1300km/h. The extra 200 km/h might be quite a lot but not compared to the 28.000km/h you'll need to get into orbit. Probably this slight disadvantage will be outweighed by advantages concerning infrastructure and import regulations, as some other posters already pointed out.

Re:bad location!

[Lunkwill_Fook]

I disagree. Unfortunately, I don't have the figures in front of me to verify (Being an unemployed aerospace engineer leads me little time to calculate) but that mere 200 km/h will give you a few more kg's of cargo capacity which is, to completely UNDERSTATE my point, worth its weight in platinum.... You can always BUILD an infrastructure... you can only lift up so much matter, however, at a time....

Re:bad location!

[sethanon]

Australia signed an agreement with Russia to launch Russian rockets from Christmas Island last year. Christmas Island is at 10.5 degrees south.

AFAIK they are still constructing the launch facility and the maiden launch will be in late 2003.

Space tourism outta Vegas

[ccnull]

This story reminded me of a similar tale about a Las Vegas company (of course) trying to set up a launch pad for space tourism in the Nevada desert. Here's one of the earlier pieces on it - http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/text/199 9/sep/10/509288711.html (from 1999) -- though googling for NDS Development Corp. takes you to press releases, et al. all the way back to 1996, at least.

Too bad this idea looks stillborn, though it's not terribly surprising. If anyone can figure out whatever became of this idea, I'd love to hear about it.

chrisnull.com - read my book, Half Mast - filmcritic.com - New Architect

Re:Space tourism outta Vegas

[Lunkwill_Fook]

I actually heard about that company when I was out on the West Coast a month ago. Apparently, they're almost ready to allow people to "ship" various goods to the moon in preparation for an actually flight/vacation to the moon concievably in the next decade. What puzzled me was their emphasis on dumping off chairs on the first trip.... Do they know something we don't know?

When the rocket veers off course

[bbc22405]

Texas is a fine choice for a launch site, if for no other reason than Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama being immediately downrange. In the event there is some problem keeping the launch vehicle on course, I can't think of three more deserving states. :-)

Like, say, this one?

[Moses Lawn]

Yes, it's true - there are more than two. There is, for instance, the Greater Green River Intergalactic Spaceport, off I-80, just west of the Flaming Gorge Recreational Area in Green River, Wyoming. I found this in Delorme's Street Atlas last year when I drove across the country. Here are some pictures.

I think the locals are missing a big opportunity here - this should be used for something more than smuggling. Admittedly, it's not as unpopulated as West Texas, but someone could start the Open Source Space Shuttle project or something here. At the very least, it needs a visitors' center.

Yes, I realize this could just be an Easter egg in Street Atlas. Where's your sense of imagination?

...versus MicroSatelliteWare

[da cog]

Houston: "Heh heh... well, actually there's a simple explanation for you running out of air. In fact, when you hear it, you're just going to laugh, 'cause the funniest thing just happened to the Microsoft License Servers that give your system permission to stay operational..."

Hey Modders!

[mtec]

That's not funny!

I've lived in Birmingham for years (orig from Tampa) and I can tell you first hand - there are all kinds of advantages to living here.
For example; It's easier to be considered 'smart' for one...
hum... and it's easier to understand people here 'cause they speak slower - so there!

Re:Hey Modders!

[bbc22405]

That's not funny!

Heh, sez you.:-)

In reality, as big as Texas is, it will probably bear the brunt of any range-safety mishaps. The launch site is Ft. Stockton; there's a whole lotta Texas between there and Louisiana. So, if you're in Birmingham, Alabama, you probably don't even need to carry an umbrella for this.

CowboyNeal ?

[freaker_TuC]

... So in theory we can finally shoot CowboyNeal to outer-space ? ...

Yay!

Sorry had to say it :)

So?

[core plexus]

We here in Alaska have had 2 spaceports for years. Now one of the small states is taking a very small step. I wonder where's the news? Oh, our spaceports are for serious use, rather than entertaining a herd of cows with model rockets. "If you cut Alaska in half, Texas would be the third largest state."

Hmm... revised Terms of Service

[hackshack]

To our loyal clients:

JP Aerospace is now requiring all manned launches to carry at least one ten-gallon cowboy hat per launch. In the rare event of a guidance system malfunction, the crewmember is required to straddle the rocket (see diagram 14) and wave said hat above his/her head while letting out a steady stream of whooping as the rocket falls back to earth.

Stop Blaming NASA for Everything

[Detritus]

The Eastern Range (Cape Canaveral Air Force Station and Kennedy Space Center) and Western Range (Vandenberg Air Force Base) are run by the U.S. Air Force. They set the safety requirements and have the responsibility for the safe operation of the range.

When you launch a rocket, you have to be able to guarantee that in the event of a malfunction, the rocket will fall in a safe impact area. There are systems that predict the impact point based on the current position and velocity of the launch vehicle. If there is a danger that the current predicted impact point will move outside of the safe impact area, the range safety officer will send a command to the rocket to activate the flight termination system. The flight termination system terminates powered flight by using linear shaped charges to open up fuel/oxidizer tanks and solid rocket motor cases. This guarantees that the rocket, or the pieces of the rocket, will follow a ballistic trajectory and land in the safe impact area.

Re:Human Nature

[MickLinux]

One could as easily point out that humanity will surely die unless we learn to live lives of grace.

Anything we can do here on Earth to destroy ourselves, we can also do to Mars, Venus, the moon, and the asteroid belt. What difference does it make, then, if we wipe out ourselves over an area the order of magnitude of the Solar System, or the order of magnitude of the Earth?

For that reason alone, I advocate an "ecologically sound" space race. Don't do things in this space race "to save humanity later" that destroy humanity now.

Space Head

[invid]

When I die I want my head chopped off and launched into orbit.

Re:Space Head

[ivrcti]

Thanks to these good ole' boys in Texas, you don't have to wait until your dead......

Scott Adams says

[Gaijinator]

This reminds me of a quote from Scott Adams in The Dilbert Future:
"If every little pissant country - France, for example - started launching satellites into space, it wouldn't be safe to go outside."

Any TTA People Out There?

[saudadelinux]

I always liked Miami spaceport ...

linux-run minisatellite how-to

[Anonymous Coward]

done that:

http://flightlinux.gsfc.nasa.gov

insurance companies: corporate politics Vs math.

[guybarr]

Like most people you are forgetting that insurance is one of the few industries run entirely on logic and mathematics -- their actuaries calculate the risk and the cost and multiple it out to get your premium.

actually, not quite exact: I met a man whose sole livelihood depends on insurance companies NOT familiar with the law of large numbers ...

to explain: his company is a middleman between the large insurance companies and single insurance agents.

Now, this company's sole service is being a medium-scale repository of agents for the large companies, and for this they take 10% commision.

Why do the agents do this ? because the large companies treat every account as a profit-making unit, so even if the single agent is very succesful, just one large insurance claim causes him to be unprofitable some fiscal year (or several years), which means this agent will be out of a job. For the medium-sized company, however, fluctuations are much smaller, hence they have little risk, they are almost allways a "profitable unit" .

This causes the absurd situation that large insurance companies lose 10% of gross-profit (more for real profit) because they ignore the law of large numbers !!

now, I asked this man wether they didn't know the absurdity of this, and he said of course they did, but they needed to justify every account to the board as profitable, so they did not try to change it.

And the morals of the story: like every industry, the insurance industry is not allways run solely on math and logic ... corporate politics takes its toll here as well.

Can they compete with Elbonia?

[EverlastingPhelps]

The Elbonians already have the giant slingshot AND a contract with France.

"I hope these things aren't expensive."

What about

[BCGlorfindel]

I can't think of three more deserving states. :-)
Washington?

Yup - old equipment is a problem too

[apsmith]

Last Friday I was talking to somebody from the FAA who is working with the Air Force on upgrading their equipment - right now they use old C-band radar for tracking rockets from launch, and it's expensive to maintain. Cost is somewhere around $1 million per launch. You could do the same thing for about 1/1,000 the cost with off-the-shelf GPS equipment. The plan is to get the upgrade done in the next 2-3 years.

You forgot a step.

[TheConfusedOne]

1. Launch Lance Bass into space.
2. Abort launch over Hillary Rosen's house.
3. This is NOOOO Step 3
4. Celebrate (and download).

Re:ITAR

[perfessor multigeek]

Yeah, I've looked into that a bit already. I'm taking the field techie approach on that front. Specifically, people I respect are working on it so I'm flagging it as dealt with. I figure that with the sea launch platform people *and* the Tonga people *and* the (minor but still out there) Guyana people *and* the overall and very competent (and relentless) work of the private space community to get these regs publicized and changed this current annoyance is as likely to get dealt with as many other obstacles.
Yep, that's right. I've looked a major problem, decided that it's not in my field and that somebody's on it and concluded "not my job, buddy". Very unslashdot.
Rustin