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Ebay vs. Musician
evenprime writes "Ebay's Verified Rights Owner Program was designed to make sure the auction site doesn't let people
sell things that violate copyright laws. Unfortunately, over-zealous ebay employees have been causing problems for independent musicians. George Ziemann has a detailed
account of the difficulties he's faced when trying to sell copies of his CD on the auction site. Apparently ebay kept pulling his ads simply because he was selling a product recorded to CD-R!
Ebay employees assume that all audio recordings on CD-R are the result of piracy, despite the fact that many indie bands burn their own music to CD-R to sell it. Wired has a nice summary of this story."
I can go on Ebay right now and buy Vcd copies of pirated dvds and cdr copies of pirated music cds. And they are shutting down the people selling music they made?!?!? I don't understand.
any place you cant sell body parts you should already know is going to give you hell for music on cd-r's...
Its called Cover You Ass.
EBAY knows doing such a thing will just bring it some bad reviews... OTOH, not doing this can bring in the RIAA hounds... what would you choose?
My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
Once it's written to (and finalized), it's a CD, rather than a CD-R.
So just sell it as a CD.
3. Profit?
I don't think that the best idea is to anger a group of people who are known to have an audience. I mean, these guys have fans.
but they must bow to the wicked witch of the west.
time for the traditional raspberry to the RIAA
{bpphbzphbpbzhbphz!!!}
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
...who have such problems.
http://www.negativland.com/riaa/
Don't we have laws in place to protect these types of things from being executed by individuals (ebay as opposed to law enforcement agencies)?
You're probably trolling, but just for the benefit of anyone else reading this - the reason to sell through Ebay is because it's a no hassle, trusted organization. It reaches out to people who might feel unsafe giving their cc# out to some random indie "label", while still selling on the band's terms.
That ebay has a problem with selling CDRs, but doesn't have a problem with selling pornography.
Too bad they are an online monoply, leaving no choice for those who want an alternative.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
E-bay is doing the right thing. They're under no obligation to sell every legal product that comes their way.
Refusing a few kosher items may pee-off the seller (and the few loyal fans), but accidentally selling one sour item could really land them in it.
Trite, bit is is better to be safe than sorry.
I am a Karma Library.
of how a super-anal IP climate pretty much just hurts those trying to break into the market.
.. nobody is going to run/approve/host indie boy's audio bits unless they've been signed off by a big label.
The RIAA should just rename itself 'The Trustworthy Music Initiative'. The more strongarm RIAA gets, and the more fear they seed
"Old man yells at systemd"
The truly ridiculous thing is that this system doesn't work anyway. The most common thing I've seen from people selling bootlegs or other illicit music is for the auction description to say "You are bidding on a pencil (or other random object). The winner will also receive..." The sad thing is that this usually happens with bands that don't mind their music being traded (Pearl Jam, Phish, etc.), but newbies get scammed into buying copies of stuff they could get basically free for trade. EBay has done very little to prevent abuses like this, yet they'll prevent a musician from selling his own work?!
~ Don't say in the auction listing that the CD will be on a CD-R. Just say that it is the original, un-altered cd. Put any questions feel free to email me (or something similiar) at the bottom of the auction. Ebay doesn't snoop through packages and unless they ask you or another user actually reports that you are selling music on CD-Rs they won't know.
When in doubt, err on the side with the most lawyers.
Lord, bless my users that they may stop being such fucking idiots!!
Given that eBay is an auction site, that indies are by nature not likely to have the kind of demand that would make auctioning their music worthwhile, and that CD-Rs of their music being pressed by them isn't something that is likely to be in a strictly limited supply, what's the advantage of selling your own music on eBay over setting up your own website or using one designed to push independent music that already exists?
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
Does eBay automatically cancel auctions that contain "CDR" or "CDRW" on principle? Because if not, and an employee actually READ the bid description, I'm sure (ok, relatively sure) Ziemann put on there that this was his own music. If so, why didn't they just email him and ask to clear up any confusion?
Just becuase he only anticipated selling 20 CDs doesn't mean he should be cheated that opportunity simply because eBay employees are tools.
Maybe they just want their piece of the pie.
Now, the musing. This kind of blanket policy in regards to anything is the proverbial throwing the baby out with the bath water. For example, back in 1997, a friend of mine got me anime (the first Tenchi movie) for a birthday present, which inspired me to start collecting the series. Finding a Suncoast that would sell it to me at the age of 17 was difficult, though, since almost every one I visited had "Must Be 18 or Over to Purchase" stickers on every title - even on titles with absolutely no content that could be justifiably deemed "offensive" to those not of legal age. I eventually just enlisted the help of an older sister to get what I was going after.
The irony of this is that when I turned 18, virtually every Suncoast in the area dropped that blanket policy.
Okay, so I can go on Ebay, and buy these, but I can't buy a burned CD-R of an indie band's music?
Where's the sense in that?
If you're looking here for something insightful or thought provoking, you're probably looking in the wrong place.
More and more modern law is allowing (and sometimes encouraging) any corporation to be come a vigilante. In this case, it's obvious that Ebay has the right to deny service to any customer they please. What's disturbing is that the government is encouraging companies to adopt policies that turn that right of denial of service into the noose used to hang the guilty (as well as the 'likely guilty'). We can blame the RIAA all we want, but ultimately, the government (through action or inaction) is allowing these types of things to happen every day now.
Okay, let me understand this. Lets say I create a set of Christmas Jingles using something like Cakewalk Sonar .. or better yet, one of several Linux based multi-track recording tools. Then burn my tunes with something like Nero ... then list it on E-Bay - they're going to pull my ad?
Perhaps this is a result of an indiscriminate Copyright Bot as described by Tennessee Law professor, Glenn Reynolds?
--- have you healed your church website?
My in-car CD player doesn't cope with CD-R media, and neither to several DVD players from major brands (Sony, for instance). If I purchase something labelled as a 'CD' but find out it won't play on my equipment, then the guy is going to get negative feedback, trust me. They also degrade much faster than a properly pressed CD.
CD-Rs are not normal CDs. Labelling them as such is bad.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
I work with a guy who was unable to sell his Apex DVD player on Ebay because the MPAA got all in a tizzy saying that people were modifying the players to be region-free yadda yadda yadda. The fact that he advertised it as an "original, unmodified" version meant nothing and Ebay repeatedly put the kibosh on his auctions even though he had talked to "customer service" and explained that this was an unmangled off-the-shelf model.
So he gave up trying to sell it and burned the mod disk and now he can't stop raving about the import DVDs he can watch. I'm bitter because Breakin', Breakin' 2, Beat Street, Rappin', The Best Of Weird Weekends and all other sorts of DVDs I'd love to buy will likely never be released stateside.
And still the pirates march on on Ebay; pirates keep on doing their thing without being hassled by the man while people who do things by the book get fucked. I love intellectual "property" law.
Easy does it!
This comment has been submitted already, 276865 hours , 59 minutes ago. No need to try again.
He should open his own store on his web site, and use all of his publicity against eBay to increase sales. He should have opened his store right before publicizing the eBay incident, so that the publicity would maximize his sales.
I applaud this guy for standing up to eBay; while this is one of the least of their offenses (their staggering disregard to fraud their foremost), it's good to find somebody who will at least muster up some popular sentiment against being treated impersonally.
That being said, he could have saved himself a lot of trouble by just not using the term CD-R. It's clear that the terminology is where eBay's mental scripts are breaking, and not just in one person at thier end, and so rather than make eBay overhaul their (admittedly overly simplistic) mental algorithms (yes, I know that he said he had copyright, but their rules probably had lots of "Cover The Company's And Your Own Ass" built into them), it would've made sense to said "New Indie CD on sale" and make no mention that one side of the CD happens to be blue.
If musicians start getting smarter about how to promote and sell their music, they would figure that they could easily buy a CDFactory the burns CDs and they can cut out their record label and I bet they could easily sell their records for much less and probablly still make more money because there wouldn't be anyone in the middle to take away from their profits.
Let's hope these "you're guilty, period" employees never "serve" on a jury.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
I hate to say this, but you get what you pay for. Sure EBay's a cheap way to sell items, but the sheer volume of auctions (and complaints) means EBay's only going to pay for a large room of trained monkeys following a step-by-step script for customer service.(That's assuming management wants to spend the extra money to train the monkeys)
1. Does the auction sell organs or living tissue? [press here]
2. Is the auction selling any material deemed offensible by the French government? [press here]
3. Does the auction include any CD-R media[press here] (which fires off an automated email, de-lists the auction, etc.)
Its a quantity over quality approach. If you want better customer service, expect to have to pay more to sell your product.
Shameless plug for my photos on Flickr
I sympathize with the man completely, but I wish he didn't let himself get sidetracked so easily. I would have sent a letter back that clearly and simply stated:
I hate not being able to get a human to talk to me. He's frustrated enough from having them remove his auctions after a cursory glance that didn't even check to see if he followed their policy, and not being able to find someone who will talk to him about it makes it worse.
I also think his "can't sell this on ebay" logo is invalid; that would violate the right of first sale, wouldn't it; the right to resell anything you have bought? Part of fair use, last I checked.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
I've vontacted them many times about people selling pirated MST3K videos ("Keep Circulating the Tapes" doesn't mean you can charge for them), even of episodes that Rhino and BBI has for sale.
Their answer is always "The copyright owner must contact us. Please alert them and have them get in touch with us."
I guess the same thing doesn't apply to music for some reason.
Frankly, this guy is just an Internet street singer... No offense. Some street singers are pretty good and even some had sometimes a chance to go into the "official" music arena.
But as with street singers, he's got trouble with the police patrols (in this case the uber-careful eBay). So they kick him, spread his meager cents all over the street and hint him to "get outta here". They don't wanna know if he's good or bad. They don't care for his music. They just wanna see the street looking antiseptic, wax shinny and without a single stain on it. For who? I don't know. Maybe they are worried about its nostalgic clients who dream to see the colors of the III Reich again?
If we're going to continue living under the weight of the DMCA, etc. we are going to need a law to combat the misuse (intentional or not) of it.
It would be nice to be able to disbar any lawyer claiming to represent the copyright holder of a given item, when in fact they don't. That would put a stop to some of the stories I've heard about unchecked computerized searches for infringing content. It would be especially nice to make attempting to extort money for the same a criminal fraud offence.
It would also be nice that if someone tells an ISP to remove infringing content, only to have it turn out to be not-infringing, they should have to pay the ISP for their time and effort, and they should have to pay damages to the owner of the removed site.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
If you advertise on Ebay that you are selling a CD, then ship a CD-R, the purchase might (quite justifiably) accuse you of misrepresenting what you've sold, and give you negative feedback.
In my experience, it's cheaper for an employer to higher an moron, and tell him EXACTLY what to do in clear black and white words (like no cd-r music) than to hire someone with a little more potential and tell them to use their best judgement. Employees have minimum quotas, and employers want minimum liability. You can see where I'm going with this so there's no need to continue...
Don't get me wrong
Seriously, if I'm going to pay for music, I want a real CD
Just my two cents
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
As others have noted, Ebay has a blanket policy of no CDRs, even though they themselves point out that there are CDRs you can sell that do not infringe copyright.
My worse example is that I tried to sell an import copy of final fantasy 9 on ebay. (I am in the UK and this was the US version).
I basically stated that this was a US PS1 disc and you couldn't play it unless you had a US or chipped console.
So they pulled my auction, stating that I was "encouraging console chipping" to play (original) imports, which Sony had told them was illegal.
They said it would be OK to resubmit the auction if I made no mention of chipping, but I felt disinclined to walk the thin line between stating something they felt was encouraging evil crime and on the other hand not giving people enough information, so they'd complain when they couldn't play it. (I have had people in the US for example buy PAL videos from me and be mystified as to why they can't play them).
graspee
I wouldn't be too surprised if it was some RIAA-paid instance who's intentionally fingering these CD-R sellers as thieves as a means to suppress their usage of the distribution channel, because if a large part of musicians found out that the scheme works, what would RIAA do (answer: shrivel up).
As a countermeasure, the musicians should create a union of their own and put up one big web auction site for the sole purpose of selling their own music, under their own supervision. This way,
Existence usually comes as a surprise (Idem)
If you sell it as a plain CD, you are lying to your customers. Many older CD players will not play CD-Rs.
If the CDR comes with a printed label in a jewel case with a J card and with liner notes, would you really notice that it was burned on a CDR.
Also, having "real" CDs burned is only economical for orders that number in the thousands or above when compared with CDR.
The guy's web site clearly states that he complied with all E-Bay rules. He is the copyright owner, which he stated in his listings.
He also gives screen shots of other E-Bay listings which are blatant rip-offs.
He also points out that E-Bay claimed that someone else had supposedly said they were the copyright holder. When he wrote back to them asking to know who was making this false claim so he could protect his copyright, E-Bay responded with a letter which ignored his request.
Good grief. Read the article. Idiot.
FWIW, a large part of this guy's problem might be announcing his "CDRs" as "CDRs," instead of something fantastically euphemistic like "home-made CDs."
eBay notoriously doesn't actually *check* many auctions, and instead tends to end things via VeRO by searching listings for "forbidden" words. One of the big forbidden words is "promo" or "promotional," which is almost guaranteed to get your listing kicked out of the music section (despite the fact that it's a rather spurious assumption to make that things stamped "Not for sale" can never be sold, but...). Thus, one finds endless listings for "samplers" or "rhymes-with-flow-motional" albums. This may be a case of the same thing.
Or it could just be the usually self-appointed eBay police making life hell, but...
-D
Someone points out that they have a fraud problem and they go whole hog after something completely different. Often their investigations are totally off base and only interfere with those honestly trying to do some legitmate business.
You're not allowed to sell your own music on CD-R just because it being on CD-R makes it automatically too likely to be inviolation of a copyright somewhere? This from the well-known auction site known for sellers who never really ship anything but cash your check or accept your cc payment anyway? The site where you can easily by "native american" artifacts or jewelry made in locations like mexico or china? The site where you can buy used dvds, videos or tapes at almost any time? Where you can buy stolen goods almost as easily as you can at the local flea market? Ebay needs to buy a life.
If you read his story, it seems to me that he got angry at eBay, stopped focussing on how to sell his CD on eBay, and started focussing on protesting.
It should have been clear that any listing that mentioned CD-R or CD-RW was going to get tagged. It should have been clear that this was being done by a dumb automated process. It should have been clear that eBay does NOT have the staff to spend very much time researching the actual status of every listed item. Maybe this is wrong, maybe this is right, but it should have been pretty clear what was going on.
What he should have tried was continuing to sell his CD's on eBay, but simply avoiding any red-flag terms in the listing.
It's obvious at this point that he wants eBay to accept listings _in which he calls them CD-R's_.
In other words, it's no longer a genuine effort to see whether independent musicians can use eBay to earn a living selling their recordings; it's become a crusade to change eBay's policies about listing CD-R's
Well, that's fine if that's what he wants to do. Personally, if it were me, I'd try to see whether there was some reasonable, hypocritical way to list my CD's in a way that was honest and didn't misrepresent them in any way material to buyers, but which would pass eBay's automated filters.
If the automated filters don't catch the listings, it's unlikely that eBay would cause him any problems UNLESS there actually was a COMPLAINT from the likes of Vivendi--and that wouldn't be likely to happen if the situation is as he represents it to be.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
This is a story not about ebay trying to shut down independent musicians but rather what happens when you let a computer decide by keyword which auctions are and aren't acceptable.
His frustrations really are because the ebay "auction filter" apparently automatically stops any auction containing the words "cdr" or "cd-r".
So, this guy writes and complains as he has a right to, and yet continues to whine even when they apologize and admit that yes, they made an error. ebay tells him he can relist but he decides to be a brat and lists a couple of auctions selling "nothing" which incidentally received more bids than his band's cds did.
finally he reposts the ads which eventually get flagged by the same brainless auction filter. yes, this is frustrating and ebay should now have a human review flagged items before cancelling them but his response is totally off the wall. he complains, a person responds and apologizes but he wants to file a suit against ebay and states that:
"Ideally, I would like to file an injunction to force eBay to stop the sales of all CD media pending the resolution of this issue. I am going to pursue this through every possible avenue."
he no longer really is interested in getting the problem resolved. he then decides that the best thing to do is to mail bomb their system.
"I was going to send the message incessantly until someone called me or they shut down the comment section to force me to stop"
he did this for four hours and apparently sent 1800 e-mails.
According to the intro to his site, he spammed a bunch of people he didn't know in order to publicize himself and this issue. Well done Mr. Ziemann, your unknown band whose cds apparently received zero bids has now obtained a million dollars of free publicity.
don't support this publicity hound.
CD-Rs are not normal CDs. Labelling them as such is bad.
But ebay's autosearch bot is probably looking for precisely CD-R. So describe it as "writable CD" or "CD created with a CD writer" or something that won't trigger the autobot. Meanwhile hopefully the bad press will get ebay to make their system more flexible, and perhaps even consider making their system especially friendly to independent musicians.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
Odd, I've never seen a standard CD player not play a CDR. CD-RW's on the other hand.
I like knowing the type of media I'm getting, but the only time it ticks me off is when some advertises "original VCDs" and I get cheap blackbacked CDRs with DivX's on them and a crappy inkjet printed label.
I've never had an issue with eBay throughout all of this. I don't state explicitly in the auction listings that these are CD-R's. That's unnecessary information. It's all about the content at that point. I think their violation-detection process is poor. I've had auctions forcefully cancelled for using words like "ass" (as in "Funky-ass house mix CD") or using the real titles of some of the raunchier tracks I play. It happens, though.
If y'all want to hear some good house music, hit up my website.
Edmund White
http://flickr.com/ewwhite
Let me explain 'hostile'. Automated responses, canned responses, lack of contact information for a real person or even having to dig through layers of pages to find email or phone numbers.
I've been a buyer and seller on eBay since late 1999 and their increasing distance between their people and customers is worrying. It's infuriating to an extreme when you find that Obvious things are hard to locate on their site and usually the novice only has volunteers on forums to go to, which are usually a complete waste, because most of the time it's social activity in the forums, rather than any real help.
Needing and seeking help on eBay is almost like going to large Builder's Square-type store, finding a box of nails you want, but on a shelf you can't reach, and having to find the employees break room to get someone to get them down for you, then having to wait for a cashier to finish a cigarette break before ringing up your order and then informing you they can only accept payment entered through a secretly hidden card scanner, somewhere in the store which you must find and your only help is from a band of gypsies which has been trapped in the store since 1994 and would rather ignore you unless you have a spare chicken. Effectively, like some of those weird chase dreams where you can't run and wake up tangled in bedsheets.
Maybe they model themselves on the Prisoner.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Well, I've been selling my DJ mix CD's on eBay for several years now. My best seller is an 8-CD box set. Yes, these are CD-R's, as most duplication houses won't press *real* CD's in quantities of less than 1000. (Plus, this way, I have greater control over inventory) Of the 1500+ CD's I've sold in the past two years on eBay, only three buyers ended up with unplayable CD's. In those cases, I refunded their money or tried an alternative means of distribution (i.e. CD-RW discs that work in machines where CD-R's don't....or duplication at lower speeds). That's the right thing to do.
Edmund White
http://flickr.com/ewwhite
and many artists dont research it first befoer they put out their first CD's..
you can get 100 of your cd pressed in a jewel case with 4 color printing on the cd and the insert and the case spine PLUS cello wrapped for less than $3.00 a cd. that $300.00 for a first run of your CD so they look professional.. hell most musicians blow that much on booze in 2 nights of practice (ok Joking there... by my buddies and I certianly do)
there is no excuse as a musician if you have an album to sell, for you to have them pressed and looking 100% identical to that which you buy from the sellouts(Read that as RIAA members)
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
On the plus side:
The vapours, if inhaled, can cause hallucinations.
On the minus side:
The vapours, if inhaled, can cease respirations.
Its much easier to prosecute the innocent than to even approach the truly criminal.
Innocent people openly let you know what they are doing. Just analogise it with some criminal behavior and appear to be security concious.
A preemptive strike may be in order. In this case -- if you want to sell your own copyrighted material on ebay, first join their Verified Rights Owner program, and make an "about" page under the VeRO program. Then when you list your item, conspicuously point out both your VeRO membership and your "About VeRO member" page.
I'm not sure this would do any good in the case of blind keyword parsing, but it might at least give you some protection against vigilantes (private or corporate) who cruise ebay looking for contraband to report.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
I was kicked off of EBay for something similar -- I was selling my beloved Dreamcast which came with the serialpc cable that can be used to boot your DC with your own software (i.e. NetBSD or Linux). Now, you COULD in THEORY, download an entire disc via the serial cable in about 24 hours or so.
Now, the first auction that they yanked contained references to some games that I had "backed up". Well, I'll agree with them that they were in the right to yank that auction. Well, I reposted the auction, assuming that their reference to "infringing items" meant these backed-up CDs, so it still had the serial cable on it.
Well, shortly after posting that auction, they canned it, AND canned my logon, saying that I had repeatedly posted infringing items! I had a couple of terse emails with my buddy "Nigel" at eBay, who argued that the infringing items where still on there -- the coder's cable! (Note: they didn't specify what was infringing on the first email, I had just assumed it was the backups) Anyway, after doing some research on the cable I found that it was possible to backup games -- over 24 hours! Anyway, I gave into them, and sweated out my 6 months suspension.
However, after reading this article about backing up GD-ROM data with a broadband adapter -- should these be outlawed, too?
eBay is certainly attempting to cover themselves, and while I support their right to refuse service to anyone, under any circumstances, and I realize that eBay is more a privilege than a right, I don't appreciate it as a consumer.
thelocust[dot]org
Well, if you read the band's webpage, they really only went on ebay to sell CD's for publicity's sake, not for the profit from the music (though I do like the whole DIY idea here).
/., and their website has probably gotten more hits today than it has for the entire history of the band. I guess that paid off pretty well. ;]
And so, yeah, ebay blocked them, and now they are on
"Quoting famous computer scientists out of context is the root of all evil (or at least most of it) in programming." - K
Look at his new anti-eBay logo at the top of his page. The text reads, "Resale of this product on eBay os strictly prohibited by the artist." Well, too bad. You don't get to decide those things. If someone buys his CD, he doesn't have a say over what happens to it anymore.
I hope you catch my drift. Simply text scans will not reveal the information you contained in your picture of the CD your selling. Anyone that even sees the CD should know its a CD-R. This of course applies to anything you sell on ebay.
I wouldnt expect them to catch it unless they read each add personally. Which they cant afford to. Well except for M$ who they just reject anything with that name in it anyway...
No excuse? so now you are dictating what a musician has to deliver?
Why should they be penalized for offering a CDR?
Maybe they don't have $300 kicking around to spare. Maybe they have to do them one at a time, on demand.
ok, I also feel sorry for the musician, but for a second think about this from Ebay's point of view.
Somebody said that they get about 4,000,000 new auctions per day. How the heck are you gonna go through those and sort out the illegal stuff? Well, you write a program that looks for certain key characteristics. If it triggers, you throw out the posting and generate a message to the user. Is Ebay's scripts perfect? No. Are they useless? Probably not (note, the fact that you can find x number of illegal copies does not prove that the scripts are useless, since you don't know how many other copies were successfully removed).
So what if the script removes your listing even if it should not have? Well you will have to reply to the message you got and ask - this is what the guy did. Ebay personnel examined the matter and got back to him and apologized. The issue could have been over at this point, but the guy started to put up empty postings and postings with links to other commercial sites. These postings were (inconsistently) removed by Ebay's scripts, but that is not unreasonable.
Tor
I was thinking he could just make a small graphic that had the word CD-R in it... No way to 'search' on that.
I have an excuse..MONEY..why pay 3.00 bucks for a cd you can make for 30 cents? Why not instead sell the CD for 3.00 dollars less. I owuld MUCH rather buy a CD-R for 3.30 than a pressed CD for 6.30 or 9.30. Most people who buy from DJ's, punk bands, indie artists don;t care about a slick glossy package.
The only way to bust a doper--is when you yourself become a smoker!
He has gotten on a personal crusade, but one of his main complaints is that he followed eBay's guidelines and still got hammered.
Look at this page. From the screen shot from October 14, it appears to me that he's referencing official eBay guidelines.
"eBay Guideline: If you are the copyright owner of the material you are offering on CD-R or DVD-R, make sure you say so in your listing!
Examples
A local band decides to release its latest album on CD-R. The band may list the album on eBay so long as it is clear from the listing that the band is the copyright owner."
He made it explicitly clear in his listing that he was indeed the copyright owner. Now, I don't know where he found the quotes above, but they appear to be from eBay official guidelines. If that is indeed the case, then there shouldn't have been a problem, and eBay could be said to be costing him money by preventing a completely legitimate sale for a reason which is incorrect.
The other point is that eBay originally claimed they had been contacted by the copyright owner who asked them to end the sale. He knows full well he didn't contact them with such a request, and so he asked eBay to tell him who did do this so he could protect his copyright. eBay ignored this request, thus further compounding their possible culpability.
And if you had contacted them and said "I am the copyright owner; these people are selling unauthorized copies of my work".. they would have yanked the auction, and probalby done nothing to verify that you are the copyright holder.
That's the point.
Pardon my ignorance for that type of music, but aren't you just copying other people's music, mixing the ends and beginning of the songs together and selling it as yours? It seems to me that I could record the audio off of VH1's video shows where they fade one song into the next and sell that with the same infringement.
Incidently, I am *not* making a statement that being a good DJ is not a skill. Being a really good DJ, keeping the beat together, and keeping people on the floor or circulating - basically maintaining "mood" - is difficult, and certainly to be praised.
But a mix tape is a mix tape, right? So what are you selling if it isn't a mix tape (however well it's put together and however well the songs are joined)?
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
Go around the filter. List it as: "This is a CD that is recordable, that is, it is a cee-dee-dash-arr. If you don't get that, please mail me".
My point is to avoid being one of these children that will oh-so-selectively take events such as this as the sole reason(s) for stopping what is in reality their quest for free crap. Everyone likes free, everyone. However, theft is theft and if you cannot reason and must then resort to selective justification you are only proving that you are a childish idiot with an overpowerful ID.
This is sorta like the wanna-be Linux advocates that were in reality either boorish anti-MS children or were simply general stock losers out to make themselves sound big. Do everyone a favor and don't help. You are nothing but the idiot that stands up in a meeting and shouts some nonsensical crap that makes us and our cause look bad. Please listen, watch and LEARN.
Well, I've run into this policy a few times, not for my own music, but for music from CD-R-only labels. A lot of independent electronic musicians that I listen to are on small "bedroom labels". And when I sell some extra CDs on eBay I like to sell those too. They are NOT illegal copies, they are legit, original, sometimes with hand-made and hand-numbered inserts.
I've tried all the following:
The only one that was pulled was #1. They might've expanded their filter to catch #2 or #3 but that's how it was when I was testing out variations.
Note that in every auction containing "CD-R", I noticed in my logs the next morning that a machine from eBay's netblock came and viewed the auction. Due to variations in the user-agent, and because sometimes they visited twice in the space of a few minutes, I believe they have a Real Live(tm) employee do it. What a wonderful job, eh? And they ONLY pull the auction when it clearly and unambiguously says the item is a CD-R. So I guess if you want to keep them busy, put "THIS IS NOT A CD-R" in all your auctions.
Nowdays, I just don't bother saying it's a CDR or anything. This music is obscure enough that the buyers usually know, and nobody's complained. Great policy, huh? In the meantime, people are selling unauthorized CDRs left and right, and they don't get caught.
I saw this one guy selling CDs without good descriptions or pictures.. I checked his feedback.. full of negatives because he was basically selling homemade "mix CDRs" and not advertising them as such. His feedback was also full of positives saying "great rare CD". So his business was doing all right from the many suckers out there. Shouldn't they shut these guys down first? Not to mention the guys selling 80GB hard drives STUFFED FULL of big-label MP3s. "Delete the ones you don't have CDs for" Yeah right!
So although it is within eBay's legal rights to arbitrarily do shit like this, it's a mind-numbingly stupid, ineffective, and purposeless policy. They just do it to satisfy the big labels. This guy should simply imply what it is, and not write CD-R anyplace in the auction. Or he could do like I did, put a bunch of auctions with subtle variations and learn which get pulled and which don't.
And oh, yeah don't put any "naughty words" in the auctions (I have no idea what the list of naughty words are, except "fuck" and "shit" are on it). They used to allow them in song titles, but now the drones move them to the "Adult" category with the hardcore porn.
And don't even bother writing customer support, they'll send you a syrupy "thanks for your business, but that's how it is" form letter.
Of course, it is obviously the RIAA that rats the independants to punish them for not passing through them...
I'm a (not terribly good) independent musician (if you have any interest in hearing my stuff, you can navigate over to the URL on my user page).
In 1999, at the height of the Napster furor, I decided I was going to boycott the entire RIAA until further notice; the implications of their copyright fanaticism on free speech are staggering, and I feel like I would be remiss in supporting it.
You can't really base a boycott on piracy, so I've stopped listening to RIAA recordings altogether; 99% of what I hear is stuff I download from other musicians' sites and burn to CD-R. And although you have to search a little harder, I think some of my CD-Rs are plain and simply *better* than anything the Big Four have put out since, say, 1985.
Here's two of the primary problems I encouter:
1. That fucking CD-R tax. Every time I buy a CD-R, Congress assumes I'm a pirate, and I have to pay a nickel to mega-acts like Britney Spears and the Backstreet Boys. That's exactly the kind of shit I'm trying to boycott in the first place; it infuriates me that they've circumvented some of my boycott through Congressional lobbying. In a way, I feel like I'd be justified in stealing a Britney CD and microwaving it; I'm paying for it, right? But I don't.
2. This eBay policy, and the dozens of similar policies, that assume that legitimate music cannot be packaged as a CD-R. News flash: it can. I own probably 100 CD-Rs given to me by various local and independent bands (in about 10% of cases, I paid about $5, but usually they just give them to me because they want me to hear the music). This stuff is not contraband! I'm not a pirate!
The most important thing we can do is be vigilant against the notion that if something doesn't come out of mainstream channels, it's somehow inferior or illegal. The RIAA pays lobbyists like Rosen millions of dollars a year to sell us that proposition; let them know we're not buying.
"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he deems himself your master."
My Deep House CD
Another pirated CD
Contrast that to a *real* listing.
So, basically, this guy bought my box-set back in July. He's been duplicating my CD's and selling them in the German market for months. Despite the blatant infringement (he even took my HTML), I don't think I have any recourse. Heck, it's sorta flattering.
Edmund White
http://flickr.com/ewwhite
Hmm, I wonder if they follow RFC's and read postmaster@ebay.com and webmaster@ebay.com?
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Right, the RIAA. The same way the MPAA sent a take-down order for a fourth-grader's book report about Harry Potter. They don't care if the claim has any merit. All they care about is that no one distributes music except through their channels.
Nope, no sig
How about all the Indie artists form a label called IndieMusica and use that as a label. Burn your CDs at home with a IndieMusica label on them and sell them through a web site on demand. I would love a single location where I can order from these local band and the web site could charge a $0.25 transaction charge per order to cover bandwidth charges and operational expenses. Thats all, nothing more. Perhaps host low bitrate samples. Similar to MP3.Com but only handling transactions with each artist's profile containing a link to their homepage. How much would it cost to set that up? If I had the extra cash I'd set it up but getting the artists to participate would be the hardest part. Why use Ebay? I found Bassic on MP3.Com and own all his CDs. He's great and I didn't need a major label to find him, just a well done web site. It doesn't take much, even if we all could pop $5 bucks to start the web site and try it at least. (I am currently broke just maxxed my creditcards paying for school, can't help.)
-=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
The thing is that the Recording Industry is probably more scared about this that about unauthorised distribution (piracy) of their own music. While unauthorised distribution may deprive them of income (and there is much anecdotal evidence to the opposite effect, that `try before you buy' increases sales), proven easy distribution of independent music makes them obsolete. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they put more pressure to remove independent works than owned works on sites like eBay, to keep up the barriers to entry for the competition.
And that's basically what this story is about. An indepentent artist, who is being presented with an unacceptibly high barrier to entry to distribute his work to as many people as possible. Which is surely the Recording Industry's main purpose.
Why doesn't the gene pool have a life guard?
For example, people have been selling the aircraft checklists that I distribute freely, despite my messages and disclaimers that for no way are they to be sold (the sellers just remove the messages). Ebay doesn't listen, but insists on an arm's length of faxes and paperwork to reddress the situation.
I'd bet that the RIAA has a computer that sifts through the music listings on ebay looking for anything containing 'CDR' or 'CD-R'. For every one of these, they probably automatically mail ebay a notice threatening to sue them if they don't remove the listing immediately. The RIAA is just like the mob, coming to collect any dime they can see. The only difference is that instead of beating you with a baseball bat, they send their lawyers after you to steal everything you own.
Crap like this is why I stopped buying CDs, BTW.
I've run thousands of listings on Ebay, and I'm pretty sure that they never go looking on their own. Your listing only gets forwarded to them if it offends someone, or if another seller wants to screw you for digging into their sales.
I once tried selling a used copy of Office on eBay (the original CD with the hologram and everything)... got the same note as this guy. Now I wonder if Microsoft really complained or if eBay killed the auction out of fear of any possible litigation.
If you want to try to sneak one by: I highly recommend using a 3-day auction. It usually takes several days for them to troll the site to search for any such scandalous items!
filmcritic.com - Movie reviews on Internet time
The feeling eBay Safeharbor gives me is the same eerie feeling I get when I hear William Shatner sing.
High-quality (175-line screen) four-color printing (4/1) printing
Direct on-disc printing
Injection-molded CDs manufactured to stringent quality specifications (These are NOT CDrs/CD-one offs)
Jewel boxes and shrink-wrap
Inclusion of a track from your CD on one of our OASIS SAMPLER CDs, with free distribution to the vast majority of radio stations in the US that specialize in your musical genre
National distribution directly through Amazon.com--the biggest retailer on the Web--as well as through cdstreet and the beloved indie store CD Baby
Free barcode if desired
Ten Retail-ready display boxes
Naturally, the prices go up if you want a nicer insert with more room for lyrics and band photos, and they go down if you buy more CDs. No. I'm not affiliated with Oasis. Our band may put out a disc of our own soon, so we've been looking into duplication options, and they are the company that we like the best so far. If you want to look at some other good options for indie bands, check out the list of duplicators recommended by CD Baby. Some of them have even lower prices than Oasis. (but not as many free perks)
If you decided to use Oasis, you may want to talk to our rep, Alex (Alexandra) Vacek - she's been real helpful with all our odd questions.
"Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
I think that goes for OS's too
Just call the thing a CD. Lots of bands sell CD's at live shows and when you get them home they turn out to be CD-R. They work fine in almost all players. If someone complains, give them a refund including shipping costs. But really, hardly anyone cares. The first time I bought an artist's CD and it turned out to be a CD-R, I didn't think "I've been gypped!". I thought "wow, cool, I'm really 3733t for liking this obscure band!".
If you really want to mention in the auction that the disc is on recordable media, then do that. Just say "this disc was personally duplicated on recordable media by the artist and copyright holder and is a fully legitimate copy". As long as you don't use the magic letters CD-R, EBay is extremely unlikely to flag the auction.
Sheesh. There are plenty of battles that need to be fought. This isn't one. Just change the wording in your damn auction, sell your damn CD's, and then get out in the streets and protest about something that matters.
Poor moderating on this comment. As long as the DJ doesn't pretend that it's their music, and as long as the artists on the mix CD are aware or even getting a cut of the profits, it's all good. Many DJ's don't pretend that it's their music, rather, that it's their _mix_. I'm an amateur producer of DnB, Trance, and 2Step (Strange combination, I know!), so I would also be pissed if some DJ was selling my music as their own. However, I'm learning to become a DJ (partly to promote my own music), and I can tell you that it takes a lot of skill. Turntables are an instrument in a sense, and a good DJ can make the night at a club or party.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
And I would rather pay $3 more for a cd that will last 10x as long. A CDR will generally not last as long as a pressed CD. I personally have had cdr backups go bad from 4 years ago.
See excellent posts below for more info.
Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
On pg. 57 of the June 2002 issue of Performing Songwriter (i.e. the same issue that ran the print version of Janis Ian's internet debacle column) contains an interview with Michael Hausman about his new organization United Musicians. Their hope to a) help artists retain ownership of their masters and the copyrights on their songs instead of signing those rights over to publishing companies, and b) hire full time marketing people to help members get their CD's marketed. I think both of this is a great idea. Few indie musicians can afford a marketing person to get them national airplay, but a group of musicians could.
"Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
I think that goes for OS's too
That said, there is a simple answer to the eBay problem: simple and literally true. Advertise the CDs like this:
Music CD: Not Mass Replicated
The process by which major label CDs are made is called 'replication'. It's different from home CD burning or low-volume duplicating- both use CDRs, replicated CDs are stamped in an expensive (hundreds of dollars) process allowing them to be churned out faster and cheaper. It's mass production.
Anyone who seriously cares about not getting a CDR in their music purchase ought to know what 'mass replicated' means. If they don't, maybe they can guess. Again, this is literally the technical term for it- rather than saying 'CDR' you can say 'not mass replicated' which means exactly the same thing. Even some small label releases are duplicated on CDR rather than replicated, so if it matters you can't go by whether it was a pressing run, or outsourced. It's strictly about whether the CD was replicated or duplicated.
Oh, and go check out MY music- I don't mailbomb people ;) how's that for a sales pitch? "Listen to my music, I promise not to hack onto your computer and delete your mp3s, or mailbomb you, or prohibit you from reselling the CD you bought from me on eBay." This world we live in...
At which point you have just tied up $900 in capital on something you don't actually expect to sell. Not good business sense.
Let's see...the guy listed an auction, which was mistakenly canceled. So, instead of writing them back and saying, "Hey, you made a mistake.", he lists it again. Surprise! It's canceled again! (What did he expect?) Finally, he clues in and sends them a mail saying, "Hey, what's up?", to which they respond with, "Oops, we screwed up, please relist." This should have been the end of it.
However, this guy (who apparently has had his honor besmirched or something) starts complaining about ebay using form letters. Give them a break! They list thousands of auctions per day! What kind of response do you expect for your 30 cents? CEO's prostrating themselves at your doorstep? Ebay made a mistake, and they fixed it. What's the problem?
He goes on to talk about how he then deliberately violated their listing policies, dropped a mailbomb on their customer service, etc. etc. Is it any wonder he had further problems with them? If somebody mailbombed me, I'd tell them to FOAD...in my opinion, the folks at Ebay showed considerable restraint in this case.
Ebay has its problems (including their refusal to allow auctions of legitimately purchased Microsoft products), but from what I've read, this isn't one of them.
"It sure was strange to see something on Usenet about me that didn't involve Klingon gang rape." -- Wil Wheaton
I was thinking he could just make a small graphic that had the word CD-R in it... No way to 'search' on that.
I wouldn't be so sure that the technology doesn't or wouldn't soon exist.
(not meant as a troll, just a thought).
$0.02 (CDN)
Remember when Microsoft signed on as a buddy and had eBay cancel hundreds of legal Windows sales under the guise of stopping piracy? eBay even had all those hundreds of negative ratings of the Microsoft buddy account set to neutral. After the big flap over it, it disappeared. Used to be here.
... they simply use an search engine to scowr the ads and ban those that appear to sell something they shouldn't be selling.
The problem here is, of course, that they have no respect for the customer (yes, because he is a customer, and as the saying goes, the customer is always right. And he is not such a little customer as that). Canceling ads is a serious action, especially if you're canceling something without any proof, based solely on the say of the search engine (which is just a program).
They have the obligation to check those ads selected for termination *before* being terminated. And if they say "we don't have the manpower for that", well, then they shouldn't be in this business, now should they?
shana
Of course you have no recourse. He's basically "stealing" your own theft. Be flattered, because any darker feelings you might have about your own work getting ripped off for money are completely hypocritical.
I, quite frankly, find it comtemptible that you have the gaul to call if YOUR music.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
How do you go about obtaining permission from and compensating the people or companies who own the rights to the various songs and performances that comprise your mixes?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
I don't think Google would spider eBay that often or that quickly. A person's auction would be over by then.
And don't forget, that link you had...is only searching on the name of the GIF/JPG or meta tags attached. LOL. It doesn't actually look at the picture. I could post a picture of a dog and call it CD-R.jpg and it would show up in that search.
no...that's the CIA