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Fuel Cell Powered Backup System
bassrat writes "Coleman just announced the world's first backup power system with Fuel Cells. Like any new technology, it's a bit pricey at $6K but the rest of the specs are pretty decent. Info at http://www.airgen.com/"
While it sounds like science fiction, fuel cell technology is now readily available to industrial users!
I mean, first thing I think of when I hear "imagine a machine that inhales oxygen" is piles of passed out sysadmins in the server room floor.
I mean...what true geek woudn't feel proud to have a backup system in his house with a real potential to spontaneously explode (even if the chances are nil).
Chaos, panic, disorder...my work here is done.
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Somebody explain to me how a $6K fuel-cell backup power system is better than...oh, I dunno....three $250 APC's hooked up in series?
Yes, I'm sure it hurts to think about these things. Go back to Starbucks and the headaches will go away.
Cheers,
Bowie J. Poag
Do I really want to be carrying around pressurized containers of hydrogen near me? Near my servers? in my house?
up to a respirator, and have the respirator power the fuel cell, and have the fuel cell power from the respirator, and have the... this proposition makes my brain bleed.
If you get an error, type "OVERRIDE" or "SECURITY OVERRIDE" and then try the optimize command again.
Sure, it is a great portable power source, but if I light it on fire, is it gonna explode in a giant fireball? Fuel cells do run on hydrogen if I remember.
- JanusFury@hiptop
using namespace slashdot;
troll::post();
Seems great, a quiet generator. I used to set up carnival equipment, and this would be great to have. But how will I get the hydrogen? For industrial use, as the site says, there are only 3 places in the city I live in to get the fuel. And it's a big city! Plus, for residential and commercial use, it'll be pretty difficult to get a hold of the H. T he site says it will soon be availaible in exchangeable canisters, but I don't think it'll catch on until it's availble at grocery stores, like propane.
This article was posted in January! http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/01/21/073720 8&mode=thread&tid=126
lets see:/ 044421 6&mode=thread&tid=126
7 20 8&mode=thread&tid=126
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/12/09
or:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/01/21/073
come on guys..
If its taking hydrogen out of the air surely after a certain amount of running you will begin to have unsafe ammounts of oxygen/carbon dioxide in the air supply nearby?
Also why advertise it primarily as a UPS when you could, with a little work hook it into your houses main electrical supply like solar pannels and save on your electricity bill~?
nich
37 - what does it stand for really...
Can't wait till my friend the pyromaniac finds out about these things. He'll probably go down to the mall and pick up a few of the residental canisters then proceed to make his fourth of july antics look like a candle dropping in a bucket of water.
These things run on stuff that burns awfully well... So will it explode and cause more damage in event of a fire?
.: Max Romantschuk
Comes from upbringing. Their parents are probably idiots too.
Screw the AirGen. I got that last Jan. I'm getting a Mr. Fusion.
...you would have an unlimited supply of fuel. Just make sure to bring along a good supply of beans for your camping trip, and you're set!
Maybe the price will go down once the technology is mainstream and the cells are mass-produced.
Of course this means that they have to come with some sort of standard... let's hope they don't hand the task to the DVD guys...
The ENIAC Demo Competition
It takes in oxygen according to their sales presentation and spits out water vapor. How would this be good for a server farm or even the domestic home?
I can see the fact it leeches oxygen as a potential problem in itself when people will invariably use it with the doors and windows closed. Given a long enough storm could this eventually pose a problem? It could very well explain why the domestic version is not yet available.
As for the vapor, I would not want to see the server room becoming a sauna. Elevations in humidity would tend to worry me, even if it is only a little bit, as server rooms of large companies tend to tightly regulate temperature and other such conditions.
from their "benefits" page:
> Quiet Very low noise operation
so is a battery backup - Okay maybe it's a little more noisy but I have been next to huge APCs and they are completely drowned out by server hum and cannot be heard anyhow. My personal UPS does not make a single sound.
> Air Pollution-Free Operation By-products are heat and water vapor Renewable Energy Powered by two of the most abundant elements -- hydrogen and oxygen -- in the universe
No arguing, but soooo? (more later)
> Clean Energy Perfect sine wave electricity to protect sensitive electronics
okay, so is a UPS, again.
> Indoor Use No carbon monoxide emissions
I am tired of typing "okay so is UPS"
> Non-Stop Power Continuous electricity generated as long as hydrogen is supplied.
I should hope!
now onto the blab:
Yes yes I know for a lot of trouble, this makes a good portable generator (maybe). But they are saying this will be a good power-backup too? my ass.
1) UPS has battery that runs out. This has hydrogen that runs out. same deal.
2) UPS can be re-charged when the power comes back - this I have to buy more hydrogen tube thingys
3) I am guessing that this uses the ROOM oxygen? like, the one we need to breath with?
4) where exactly is the water (byproduct) going? I remember that fuel cells has a high temperature - I assume vapor? as in bumping up the humidity to some insane levels in the server room? Even if it does not - I would think there need to be new pipework / whatever to carry away the condensation.
Let's not forget that it probabbly cost a bundle starting off / maintain too.
Now with that vented - it would be pretty cool to get one to replace one of those noisy generators for a motor-home or something - but THEN, it's designed for indoor use (i think)? wtf? and i have to either carry AirGen cylinders (low pressure) (read: does not last long), or hydrogen cylinders (read: really dangerous) around instead of just getting some gasoline at the station?
erm... I will stick with a portable generator (for power generation) and UPS (for backup) thank you.
My life in the land of the rising sun.
Like any new technology, it's a bit pricey at $6K.
Bullshit! I can think of lots of new technologies that would be a bargain at twice the price!
(rimshot)
Wait! Don't leave! I have more...
A-hem.
From the page:
"Imagine... A machine that inhales oxygen, combines with hydrogen and exhales electricity.
While it sounds like science fiction, fuel cell technology is now readily available to industrial users!"
Okay, now let me try:
Imagine... A machine that inhales oxygen, combines with [anything flammable] and exhales [any carrier of work].
Sound like science fiction? Think again, this so-called "combustion engine" will revolutionize...
wait! wait!
Don't leave.
I have more.
Okay, watch:
How do you back up data during a power outage?
Put it in reverse! {rimshot}
(i.e. have your backup solution produce energy instead of using it, thereby turning back the direction of time in much the same way that backing up the wrong way down a one-way road --
Wait! Don't leave!
I have a parenthesis to close:
)
There.
Uhm, yeah.
Seriously though.
And here I put on my insightful hat.
This could be great in hospitals!
from the article
The fundamental component of the AirGenTM fuel cell generator is Ballard Power Systems' NexaTM power module, which includes a proton exchange membrane (PEM) fuel cell consisting of two electrodes -- the anode and the cathode. Each electrode is coated on one side with a thin platinum catalyst layer and then separated by a polymer membrane electrolyte. When hydrogen gas is inserted near the anode, it breaks into free electrons and protons. The protons migrate through the electrolyte to the cathode and interact with oxygen from the air to form water and heat. The AirGenTM fuel cell generator uses the heat to evaporate the water into vapor.
sounds like it's powered by black magic to me
All these people whining about how explosive hydrogen is etc etc. Look folks, you have a tankful of gasoline riding under your arse in your car, you have a natural gas furnace, stove, and water heater, and use a propane barbeque. These things are more of a threat than a little hydrogen. Are we stuck at the Hindenburg? Remember that was caused by the flammable hull of the ship, not the hydrogen itself!
As for these folks saying "oh no, it's using all the oxygen" - I sure hope your rooms aren't airtight, they shouldn't be - oxygen will flow in to replace that being used with proper ventilation. Use your brains people.
At least it's been several months. ;-)
--
Runnin' around, robbin' banks all whacked on the Scooby Snacks...
using the websites own calculations it would cost $30.00 for 6hrs @1,000 watt output continous.
.(around 150watts)
Thats a fare bit of power but my 400watt inverter and $100.00 deepcycle battery keeps my server up for 10hrs
{ Pillar candles great for when the power fails and you cant see the keyboard..
Imagine... A machine that inhales oxygen, combines with hydrogen, and exhales some water vapor.
Lo and behold, it craps out some electricity while at it!
Anything less is simply a stop-gap measure, not worth exploring.
At least it's been several minutes. ;-)
O @
|+|
{=8~~ ?o? --/oYo\--
l l l l [__o__]
L L L L L L
In a move aimed at stifflings UPS's competitive advantage in the backup power supply market, FedEx invested $2B in this new Fuel Cell technology.
Did I miss something there?
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
Are there good ways to make your own hydrogen? Can one use renewable energy sources to cheaply create and store hydrogen for later use in a generator such as this?
First...
The capacity of the generator is only 1000 watts! What the hell? that's not more than 3 PCs! You get some really quiet generators that would do the same for a lot less.
Second...
What's the deal with a 1 year warranty? Surely, a backup system is meant to be reliable. You'd think the company would atleast put a 5 year warranty on this thing.
Third...
"Provides electricity as long as hydrogen fuel is provided". First, hydrogen is flammable. Second, they don't seem to mention what the consumption rate of this generator is...which leads me to the third point - hydrogen fuel will be quite expensive.
Looks a little iffy if you ask me.
Find a job you like and you will never work a day in your life.
Wife: Oh honey, you take my breath away.
Husband: No, dear. It's our new Fuel Cell Powered Backup System. I think we just had a blackout.
Lots of posts rant about oxygen deprivation... if you're sitting in an air tight room somehow you're probably not going to be worried that there is one more oxygen breather, seriously, ever heard of ventillation?
I'd be more concerned about how much additional heat and humididty this thing is producing and whether the server room tech had accounted for it before leaving for the weekend.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
It's what NIST is for.
In space, no one can hear you moo.
This idea has been floating around for some time, and it is nice to see it being actually implemented. (Even GM's Hy-wire car uses fuel cells). IMO, this technology hasn't matured as yet, and I will NOT consider it matured till the day these cells will run on WATER itself and NOT hydrogen. More than 70% of the world is covered by water, can you imagine how much energy we have, potentially ???
I must admit though , I can imagine nomads in the deserts running their water powered buggies and then stopping for a drink from their buggie's fuel(water) tank !!!!!!
|/________
|\A|ALYS|
Lets see so far we have:
1. Hydrogen = nitro glycerin.
I'm sorry to spoil your pyromanic dreams, but hydrogen is not going to suddenly explode. It has to mix with air before it becomes dangerous, even then it burns so quickly that you would have to compress it into just the wrong size room to cause problems. But hey we already have bottles of propane, butane, LPG, etc. They in my opinion are more dangerous, because they are heavier then air, which means they burn around you, hydrogen flashes above you.
Hydrogen is also relativly easy to detect electronically in the air, so monitoring isn't a problem. If necessary add the good aweful smelling gas they put into natural gas.
2. It'll suck all the oxygen out of the room.
Think about it for a few more seconds will ya? All rooms require ventilation. There are plenty of indoor generators, we cook with gas, etc, etc. Any ventilation requirements will be taken into account when the equipment is installed.
3. Why no use larger batteries.
Batteries have to be recharged between uses. New gas can be added to a running system. Oh but so can batteries be recharged by diesel, or swap in new batteries. This is the same problem.
Generators need more fuel, fuel cells need more fuel, batteries need to be replaced. Which one is more convienant to keep running, depends on how long you need it to run, the availability of fuel, maintainence costs (generators need to be serviced), how long you expect to run on backup power, floor space. So fuel cells would be useful in many situations, think more big picture, and stop thinking about a particular situation. (Eg: use less batteries(20mins), fall back to fuel cell (4+ hours), call in generator.)
4. Fuel hard to find.
Yes, but it doesn't have a short shelf life or anything, what was the point? This is for backup purposes yes? Have you ever tried to replace the worn out batteries in a UPS? As the product becomes more popular gas will be easier to find.
5. Generates water in server room.
Magically enough so do air conditioners which are also in server rooms. We have invented magical devices called condensers, pipes and drains to deal with this.
6. It's not like you can hear generator over the servers.
This is also useful in areas not surrounded by loud machines. Most generators below a certain size are rather noisy. Fuel cells are silent. People using generators on farms, or island power supplies, etc would be interested in this. Once again stop thinking about a particular application.
7. You can recharge UPS when power comes back on, but you still have to buy more fuel.
Two issues:
a) Cost: You are still paying for replacement fuel (The electricity to recharge the batteries). And batteries are horribly inefficient, you use much more power charging them, than you get back out of them.
b) Convieniance: Batteries recharge automatically, but you have to manually change the fuel cannisters. Quite true for this design. However this problems goes away with natural gas powered fuel cells (Same deal as electricity). Reversible fuel cells are also under development. They use main power to split water back into oxygen and hydrogen. But you get similiar loses to recharging batteries, and you have to figure out where all the oxygen will go. (If you've seen a hydrogen fire, then seen an oxygen fire, you'd understand why I'm more worried by the oygen).
If I could pour water in this thing and have it make hydrogen for itself, that might increase its usefulness.
Or if I hooked up a dehumidifier to it, and put it on top so the water would run into the fuel making tank....OMG!
I've just invented a Perpetual Motion machine!
Of course, having water around servers and switches makes for the Worlds Most Dangerous Server Room and many headaches...so maybe I've invented the Perpetual Motrin Machine.
1) UPS has battery that runs out. This has hydrogen that runs out. same deal.?
Not same deal. You can keep popping out any buying more hydrogen cannisters and go indefinately with the fuel cell. Your UPS will buy you some time (enough time to shut down your networks safely) but not to continue operations. Essentially it is generator and UPS all rolled into one.
In obtaining more hydrogen, you can either buy it or you can generate it yourself (though electrolysis - via solar or mains). You can see the latest fuel cell stories at Future Energies.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
No, *not* NiMH...
The goodyear blimp is only a flying billboard, whereas the hindenberg was more like an ocean liner.
They were called airships because they were originally intended to do everything a ship could do, only from the air. The germans used airships to attack britain in the first world war and there were plans for airborne freight for go-anywhere delivery of parcels at a fraction of the cost of other courier systems.
I suppose that if engineers really wanted to work at it and spend a lot of money, we might have nuclear powered, hydrogen lofted aircraft carrier blimps defending america today - stealth airbases that could suddenly appear deep behind enemy lines and move around at will.
alternatively you could have a solar powered blimp-yacht for recreation: solar cells on the top of the air bag generate electricty, a scoop on the front collects h2o. electricity splits the h2o into hydrogen for loft and propulsion and oxygen. Fuel cells turn the hydrogen back into electricity on demand and drive the electric motors connected to the propellers.
By gently heating a hydrocarbon fuel with a catylist, you can get nydrogen gas out of it. If this technology matures you could end up with a portable powerplant that runs on pure H2 gas and a wide variety of other fuels.
check out the info on direct methanol fuel cells
they should bundle it with a mains powered hydrogen compressor, so you can store hydrogen safely in your own canisters when times are good.
I'm betting that running hydrogen through a normal air compressor would be asking for trouble.
Somewhat offtopic, however there was a paper by UCLA or NASA that discussed the Hindenburg disaster and whether hydrogen was the main culprit (which was no, it was more the fabric according to them). Anyway, one of the professors said that hydrogen was no more hazardous than gasoline, perhaps less so. Gasoline's heavier than air vapours are a big factor. They also said hydrogen, obviously handled properly, was safer than propane and about as risky as natural gas.
Have it powering an oxygen machine, and have the oxygen machine power the backup system!
Your Momma's so fat she makes emacs look like nano!
What's not typically known is using electricity you can reletively easily seperate water in to Oxygen and Hydrogen. Both of which could be stored to later go through a fuel cell and turned back into water and electricity. These conversions are very near to 100% perfect in terms of energy transfer. I've seen it demostrated at an alternative-fuel car show. It was very interesting, and got me interested in Hydrogen as a possible fuel for cars (and other things).
Since this thing is supposed to be plugged into the wall anyways when it functions as a UPS, why can't it use the house voltage to generate the Hydrogen, rather then forcing you to buy bottles of the stuff. Granted, you may not be able to store it at the same preassures manufactures can, but I bet you could at least store enough in low pressures to keep you running for an hour or more, I mean how long does the average power-outage last? Last one I expiranced was only about 10 seconds.
As for the safety of Hydrogen, from what I undersand, a fiber-wrapped steel bottle would be quite safe, but since hydrogen is so very light, any and all flame would just go straight up. All the combustable gass would burn in a second or less.
Does anyone know how easy it is to run a carberated car off Hydrogen? Remove the carborator, insert metered hydrogen pipe, start engine. Because the fuel is not carbon-based, you don't even have to change your oil for litterally years (add some additives maybe...). The emissions are clean water, and it develops nearly the same ammount of power as regular Gasoline does. They only down sides are getting hydrogen in quantity, and the price (equivalent of about $3/gal).
Given the uneasiness that people have about hydrogen canisters and potential explosions, does anyone else think it is a bit odd that the promo shots feature exploding "Coming Soon!" signs?
Maybe they are just trying to be prophetic.
Just look at the specs.
Batteries: Sealed Lead Acid
http://www.airgen.com/airgen.shtml
"Power out of Thin Air." And, um, also hydrogen. These fuel cells are neat, but Coleman (according to the website) maintains that they're only meant for industrial applications at the present. Looking at the hydrogen canisters they currently have available, they are industrial-size jobs, several feet tall, filled with H2 gas at 2000 psi, and can provide hours of power. These types of cylinders are pretty dangerous no matter what is stored in them. I work at my university's physics department helium/nitrogen facility, and I'd consider the pressurized helium gas cylinders at room temp to be far more dangerous than the liquid nitrogen and liquid helium we also vend, because a damaged 2000 psi gas cylinder is essentially a 150 lb. steel missile. Still, if properly handled and stored, they aren't too much of a worry. The types of customers who would use the AirGen in its current state are the types who probably have some high-pressure cylinders of various gases in use at the worksite anyway- the hydrogen cylinders are certainly no more dangerous than the oxygen canisters used all the time in oxyacetylene welding.
What seems to be lost in all of the bickering over the explosiveness of hydrogen is the recognition of the real potential breakthrough of this product- the AirGen canister, the one that stores hydrogen as metal hydride. If it is as good as it sounds, it's a major step towards solving the fuel storage problems that have held fuel cells back for so long. Unfortunately, they don't give much in the way of specs- I'd be very interested to know how much uptime that 15 lb. canister produces in comparison to the pressurized cylinders, and what the uptime/price ratio is. (It generally costs about 20-30 bucks to fill one of the large hydrogen cylinders, which suggests that it'd only cost about 2-3 dollars an hour to provide clean emergency power. I can see why people are interested.) I'd also like to know more about the metal hydride it uses- lithium, or is it something else, like nickel or palladium? Storing hydrogen as a metal hydride is a good way to make it a lot safer and more convenient, but most metal hydrides are still extraordinarily reactive- I can remember all the reactions from organic chemistry that used lithium aluminum hydride to carry out heavy-duty reductions. Eschewing the huge steel cylinder/bomb to provide hydrogen fuel is a great idea, but I'd rather not have to keep a Type D fire extinguisher handy near my computer. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that specs are minimal because the AirGen canister is not quite ready for prime time- which is a familiar story for fuel cells.
"FDA staff reviewers expressed concern about the number of patients who were left out of the study because they died."
And that would most likely come from electricity. One of the most prevalent sources of said energy is coal burning power plants. Now, I know that there are a lot of dams that provide us with power too, but those also have costs. The Northwest has only recently come to realize that putting dams on rivers threatens fish, etc. If there is some vast reserve of pure hydrogen that someone can find, then great. But until then, these fuel cells simply shift the pollution to the site of the power plants. Please don't get me wrong, I love the idea of driving a car with a fuel cell sometime in the future; or even using the Coleman generator in my house. Truly great would be using a solar panel array to split the water, then using the result to feed a fuel cell later. Peace (first post! yay!)
The reason there aren't fuel cells powering every device on earth has oh SO little to do with "technological issues" or "design issues" and has everything to do with creating new fuel distribution networks, and the big killer, PLATINUM PRICES.
Saw open a fuel cell, and you will find platinum. Period.
Platinum is expensive.
Using less platinum and increasing efficiencies is a design goal that works towards creating COST-EFFECTIVE FUEL CELL PRODUCTS, and THIS is where the big work is being done.
Fuel cell chemistry is no great mystery. The MYSTERY is finding out how to make it AFFORDABLE.
PLATINUM, FOLKS.
If so, maybe it was caused by a sysadmin snaring their ankle in those power cords hanging out of the front of the unit.. or maybe that power switch sticking out like a chair prevented a falling object from hitting the ground :/
I hate to be mean, as it's obviously a new product, and from a company that is likely new to machine room ergonomics, but it appears to have a few case design flaws that will probably contribute to downtime as much as the power outage the unit was designed to prevent.
Sure is a cute little thing though.. maybe in a future version they'll recess the cords in a well, and recess the power switch away from where it can accidentally be tripped. I like the case design otherwise.
65 dba (a bit louder than a normal conversation) doesn't seem like a "pretty decent" spec to me. My UPS is a heck of a lot quieter seeing as I can't even hear it.
Explosive hydrogen, the Hindenburg was the size of a block of houses, and then some! We're talking about a small canister of gas! Christ my wife takes more risk using her gas powered hair thingy!
Safe, clean, economical. Why do you have to shoot it down straight away? People scoffed when they said computers would revolutionise business, IBM et al, saw the light and fifty years later we now carry Palm pilots around in our pockets! Give it go, if it fails, then scoff!
The only people who will put a stop on this are this nice people down at your local power plant, who don't want you getting all yer "leccy" from the guy round the corner with his Hydro-pump!
[ I shall elaborate in hopes that my anonymity will not obscure the merit of my argument]
This product may not quite be the Apple Computer of the coming hydrogen revolution (cheap enough for the common user), but it's an important move in that direction (landmark when they market it for home use). As costs inevitably deflate with mass production and improved processes (especially well illustrated by the computer analogy), people will buy these for their many virtues.
- Lack of pollution, which contrary to current thinking, has Economic Value
- Greater efficiency, meaning more useful energy from the same fuel
- Diversity of fuels: Hydrogen for the Fuel Cell can be reformed from any hydrocarbon ( some info here)
- Renewable fuels: Fuel Cells are Bi-Directional! That means that with no hydrocarbon supply and an empty hydrogen tank, hydrogen fuel can be created for later use (by electrolysis) with renewable electrical sources like solar and wind, or any other source
- Higher Density: Batteries are the main bottleneck to portable technology. They are heavy, expensive, and have a dirty-lifecycle. Direct Methanol Fuel Cells (currently expensive) will allow small cartridges of methanol to take the place of heavy additional batteries ( like here).
Although Fuel Cell technology is in its infancy and is still expensive, it is our bass-ackwards economic framework that give nobody (individual, organization, and mass power producer alike) -any- --Economic-- incentive to produce their power without pollution the environment common to us all.
This economic framework assigns no value to non-pollution whatsoever. When the free-market along with legislative guidance (there are a few things only governments can do, and protecting shared natural resources is one of them) places a fair value on non-pollution, Fuel Cell power production will be much cheaper.
For better or for worse, the masses are slow to catch on. One way that it's better (in a capitalist economy) is that those who see it first can buy stock, sit back, and wait for the others to catch on.
They use one of those to clean the Teletubbies house too.
Like any new technology, it's a bit pricey at $6K
Looks like the price will drop as soon as a cheap source of platinum is found.
Considering the "Soviet Union" doesnt exist anymore. Im not sure if the Russians kept them or not. And even ten years ago the Soviet Union I think had vanished by then.
Good review of the fuel issue. Do you know what kind of "energy density" you can get with hydrogen locked up in a metal-hydride? Is it about the same as, say, methanol?
What excites me about this product is that a) I can now stop seeming like a crackpot when I wax poetic about the wonders of fuel cell technologeh (most people don't seem to believe how revolutionary this is! why?!?) and b) now (or soon) me and my friends can have a nice, hippy-friendly rave in the middle of nowhere, and won't have to worry about masking the sound of a generator with MASSIVE WAVES OF TECHNO AND GOA-TRANCE. Granted, we'd probably play it that loud anyway... but what about the breakdowns and ambient passages?
Also we'd have to hook up a couple of these puppies to make sure we have a lots of power (I think the specs say it can push 1600W for a couple of seconds, maybe the next generation will have more oomph). But I really look forward to getting one in a couple of years... Instant Burning Man! just add water!
I've got a bad attitude and karma to burn. Go ahead. Mod me down.
Have you seen a car recently?
They use magic devices called catalytic converters to reduce or eliminate the most dangerous part from the exhaust gasses.
Hey, and 99% of all cars use that magic technology. (At least in Europe) - They all contain platinum, and you can buy a totally worn out used car for around 400$/ including 1 ton of steel and its catalytic converter.
How is that possible, Mr. Megasmart?
many (most?) coleman products are manufactured by other companies who then pay coleman to use the brand name. a brand name can really change how much you can charge and how well something sells. i worked for a company that sold crappy portable tvs and radios, among other things, that were not selling well enough so they licensed the coleman name (for like $0.70 per piece) and the sales went up. i wonder how much the coleman name cost this case. funny thing, that consumer perception.
fear is the mind killer
Their website makes promises of cheap, clean, electricity "out of thin air" and advertises the proccess as a technological breakthrough which is the "reverse of electrolisis". Admittedly, it may be a step towards improving clean technology, but requiring hydrogen != generating power out of "thin air". Undoubtably it would be a breakthrough if it could extract the hydrogen from water, I am no chemistry expert, but am I right in assuming that would be technically impossible? Or is it just a case of the technoligy not being developed yet?
If you look at the specifications from their site
you will see like the 200 Cubic Feet Cylinder
will give you about 11.5 Hours at 1/2 power (500W)
and will cost you about 30$ to fill up.
Make same elementary mathematics and you will
get about 5,25 $ for 1 KwH of back up power!!
Sounds a little bit too expensive for me.
I've been hoping this technology would reach the consumer market (who 'da thunk Coleman would be the one?). Been reading about this in Mother Earth News for years.
Yes, you could produce your own hydrogen quite easily from electricity and water. The problem here is to produce pure hydrogen without any residual oxygen left in the line or holding tank *very dangerous*. So don't try this at home without researching it! A proper setup would burn off the residual oxygen in the hydrogen line using (guess what) another fuel cell. Purified hydrogen can be stored at moderate pressure in inspected propane tanks -- though you go through a lot of tanks as the energy per pound is quite low.
Purify the oxygen output using another fuel cell, and you have medically pure oxygen! Wouldn't those medical supply companies hate to see people producing their own!
So what I'm really waiting for to hit the mass market is a safe inexpensive hydrogen producing machine. It would make storing electrical energy cheap for windmill generators or pv cells.
Some of the less informed here think you could produce electricity from water itself. Water doesn't contain the potential for producing power (caveat follows) -- you have to put in power before you can take it back! My apologies to those already using the trace amounts of H3 (heavy water) to power the Mr. Fusion on their DeLoreans.
And yes, you could run a fuel cell on methane. It takes an extra step and another precious metal (iridium, palladium? I forgot) in addition to the platinum layer. On the output, it generates CO2 in addition to water vapor. Not quite as clean as pure hydrogen, but who wouldn't want to run their computer on chickens**t gas!
A pig farmer in Africa produced methane from all the manure and (using conventional generators) supplied all the electricity for his farm and home. Biggest advantage though was the cleanliness of his farm -- no stink, almost no flies! I'd love to see (and smell) a lot more farms use this technology.
Methane's also very abundant in the form of hydrides underneath the ocean. Between that and the farms methane could supplant most of the oil in our economy. Potential for world change abounds.
Old news, guys. This was posted a YEAR ago almost to the month on Slashdot.
The same comments apply today as they did then.
6K for something that you can't really get fuel for. And if you can get it, you will pay for it. Dearly.
Powering and paying for this thing for a day on Hydrogen makes Diesel look like the fuel of the future.
It is a step in the right direction in terms of science. But in terms of people wanting to pay for it?
No, I didn't think so.
Even a fuel cell doesn't seem to be able to keep the machine in their advertisment from getting a Blue Screen Of Death :)
To make these things Mandatory in every house that has a computer. Just think of how this will protect the environment. How could you argue against helping the environment? Without clean air our children will get sick. Without clean water our children would get sick. Vote for this proposal and save the environment from the right-wing fanatics that want to cut down all the trees and pollute OUR air and water.
Memories of Colman lanterns and stoves.
Cute, but did you bother looking at the site? There are two fuel options... pressurized hydrogen tanks for industrial use (with some potential for explosion), and low-pressure hydride cannisters for small-scale and residential use. It's pretty much impossible to coax an explosion out of hydrogen entrained in a hydride.
--Larry
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence
All you need to do is plug it in and you're all set. In fact, you could even plug it into the output of the device and get it to run forever*.
* Void where prohibited by thermodynamic laws.
--- Jason Olshefsky
Karma: Poser (mostly affected by adding this line long after everyone else did)
That's right, the fuel cell was invented more than a century ago, and predates the internal combustion engine. The reason it's taken so long to develop to commercial viability (other than on space craft, where cost is not much of an issue) is that low-temperature fuel cells need a platium catalyst. It wasn't until the last decade that advances in polymer technology significantly reduced the amount of platinum needed per kW. Platunum still does represent a significant portion of the cost of a fuel cell, although of course it doesn't go anywhere and can be recovered when the useful life of the fuel cell ends.
Another problem has been (and continues to be) that of designing fuel cells that run well on fuels other than pure hydrogen. Today, fuel reformers are available to run PEM fuel cells on methane (natural gas), methanol and even gasoline. The fuel reformer output contains all sorts of impurities, though, and it seems getting a fuel cell to handle impurities without long-term reliability issues is still a challenge.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
I have been waiting for GE to make good on their HomeGen for several years but the web page hasn't changed in years. The HomeGen was even announced here on Sept. 17 2000. I believe even the Colaman product has been posted
here before. I have been ready to fork over wads of cash for this technology for over 5 years but all I keep hearing is "Just a few months". I may just have to get some coconuts and make batteries like the professor on Giligan's Island.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
No, that is what an internal combustion engine does. In a PEM fuel cell, to put it simply, the hydrogen nuclei are "pulled" through a membrane one at a time by their "desire" to "mate" with oxygen present on the other side.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
On their website Coleman say the following:
Air Pollution-Free Operation
By-products are heat and water vapor
Renewable Energy
Powered by two of the most abundant elements -- hydrogen and oxygen -- in the universe
Now this is obviously not quite right. As usual, they're forgetting about where the hydrogen comes from. I assume that the easiest way to make hydrogen is to use electrolyisis with water. To do this, you need electricity. In order to make electricity, you normally burn fossil fuels.
What's happening is that the problem (pollution and using non-renewable energy sources) is being tranferred from the fuel cell to a big power station down the road. This might give the impression to the user that they're being environmentally friendly, but unfortunately they're being deluded.
Of course it's better this way as I'm sure that power stations are more efficient than internal combustion engines, and that more pollutants are scrubbed in a power station than a catalytic converter can manage, but they should be honest and say that the electricity used to make the hydrogen MAY have come from renewable energy sources.
mark.
Anyone else catch the Blue Screen of Death in their industrial photo? Seems someone doing commercial print for Coleman's has a geek-friendly sense of humor.
You are checking your backups, aren't you?
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/01/21/073720 8&mode=nested&tid=126
UTC Fuel Cells announced the sale of seven PC25TM fuel cell power plants to Verizon to provide primary power for a critical call-routing center on Long Island, New York. The seven units, which each produce 200 kilowatts of electricity and 900,000 Btus of usable heat, will form the largest fuel cell installation in the world, surpassing the PC25 installation at the Connecticut Juvenile Training Center in Middletown, Conn. Verizon will install the units at a 332,000 square-foot facility in Garden City that delivers local phone service to some 40,000 Verizon customers on a 24-hour basis. The facility is also home to more than 1,000 employees who handle various functions, including answering customer calls.
The fuel cells, which together will generate 1.4 megawatts of electricity, will provide primary electrical power for the facility. Verizon also plans to install four natural gas powered generators to operate in parallel with the fuel cells as a hybrid system that can generate up to 4.4 megawatts of electrical power. The generators will serve as backup power, along with the electrical grid and batteries. Last year, UTC Fuel Cells installed six units at the Connecticut Juvenile Training School in Middletown. The units form a 1.2-megawatt microgrid to provide power to buildings on the campus. This is currently the largest fuel cell installation in the world.
A fuel cell is an electrochemical device that combines hydrogen, or hydrogen-rich fuel, and oxygen to produce electricity, heat and water. Fuel cells operate without combustion, making them almost pollution free. While a traditional generating system produces as much as 25 pounds of pollutants to generate 1,000 kilowatt-hours of electricity, the PC25 power plant produces less than an ounce.
UTC Fuel Cells has manufactured the PC25 power plant since 1991 and delivered more than 245 to customers in 19 countries on five continents. Those power plants have together accumulated nearly 5 million hours of operation.
More info: http://www.utc.com/press/2002-03-20.htm
I think they position it as a generator for facilities like data centers and stuff. Not your camper. Definitely a small audience for now.
First of all, Hydrogen does not explode when mixed 2:1 with Oxygen, plus flame ... it implodes. Take two cubic feet of H2 and one cubic foot of O2, mix, add flame and you get less than a thimble full of water (plus some heat.) The pop you hear is from air rushing to fill the void, caused by the almost instantaneous reaction that converts three cubic feet of gas to a teaspoon of liguid. Try that in a fixed volume container and it will probably crush inwards.
Second of all, just take some APC UPS's and throw away those candy ass batterys that come with it. Hook up some 1100 cold cranking amp deep cycle marine or deisel truck batterys to the system, the ones that weigh about 70 lbs (30 kg) apiece, in parallel where the teensy tiny little batterys were, and Voila! perpetual power, enough to run your server for days. No consuming expensive H2 cylinders (or getting those bad boys refilled), no $6000 UPS thingy, no downtime. If you can suck three monster offshore diesel marine batterys dry, I have a job for you in pr0n.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
This is another dup, but I'll be nice since it was almost a year ago (and the price seems to have dropped).
Well lets see, my diesel genset cost about half as much, produces about 7 times more electrcity, and will run for 10 days of 133 lbs worth of fuel producing the same about of power the fuel cell does as opposed to the 11 hours this coleman fuelcell will run. Ok I know a lot of that 133 lbs for the hydrogen fuel cell is the canister, but still even if half the weight is canister and only say 60-70 lbs is fuel my diesel will still run for days after the fuelcell has exhausted its hydrogen.
About the only differnce is I have to run my generator in its generator shed outside, and it is noisy, but still I think the fuel economy, ease of obtaining diesel and the fact that if worse comes to worse I can run bio-diesel (which is chemically altered french fry oil). Sorry still sticking with diesel here.
Hello? Is this slashdot or a luddite convention? This thing is new technology. Fuel cells have been around a while, but this is the first time that private citizens can get their hands on them. THat being said, I think its wonderful. As more competition comes about and the public will learn of their benefits, I expect to see more of these little wonders, making more power at cheaper prices.
Think of the benefits.
A more powerful version could be built into new homes that would automatically kick in and provide silent, backup power for the refrigerator and freezer, to keep food from spoiling.
This could possibly kick off the infrastructure necessary for having hydrogen based vehicles replace the current internal combustion engine powered vehicles of today.
It could finally allay the public's fears about hydrogen being a volatile, explosive gas.
Increased competition and development to make smaller, more powerful hydro generators will also translate into cars. A 1000 mile range hydro powered car that goes 0-60 in 4 secs with comfortable seating for four, yet puts out almost no pollutants could be in our future if these things were to be seriously adopted by society.
13 year old white supremacists are shitty web designers.
That article is about about phosphoric acid fuel cells. That is a mature technology that's been in commercial use for over a decade. It runs at a high temperature, does not scale well below a quarter megawatt and takes time to start up. They compete with gas turbines.
PEM fuel cells are just beginning to appear in commercial products. They cost more per kilowatt, but can be scaled down to the size of a laptop battery and can go from zero to full power in a fraction of a second. They compete with batteries and small internal combustion engines, mainly in mobile applications.
See also this overview of fuel cell technologies and this table.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
For a detailed exposition on why the Hindenburg burned (not exploded), look here. I find it amusing that the term "Hindenburg effect" is used to describe the mindset that people have about hydrogen being dangerous.
Also, the fact that the canisters are using Metal Hydride storage is rather nice, too. Lower pressure, but heavy, and much safer. Some of the newer metal hydride materials can store the same volume of hydrogen (in low-pressure, gaseous form chemically bound to metal powder) as liquid hydrogen (without needing to mess with cryogenic materials). Ovonics recently announced a material which could store more than 7% hydrogen by weight; this means that a liter container of their metal hydride could contains about 72-73 grams of hydrogen (a liter of liquid hydrogen contains about 71 grams).
Roger Billings (currently with the International Academy of Science) who drove a hydrogen powered Cadillac in President Carter's inaugural parade (gives you an idea of WHEN), did some research on safety and metal hydride. He took some metal hydride containers, fully charged with hydrogen, to a US Army test range and had them shoot the containers with incendiary bullets. They punctured the container, and they got a "pilot light"-type flame which burned for a couple hours, but there was never a "burst" or anything remotely resembling a fireball or explosion. Safer than a tankfull of gasoline.
... by the Dew of Mountains the thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning
http://www.ballard.com/tD.asp?pgid=75&dbid=0 For those of you concearned about water/humidity
Emissions : Liquid water 0.87 liters (30 fluid oz.) maximum per hour
"The last thing I want to do is deal with a bunch of people who want something."
Major Major
The flame is invisible so if the tank is on fire, it may not be obvious. When they were setting up for the first Hydrogen bomb test, they had to vent some hydrogen for some reason or another. They lit the escaping gas and all they could sense was the noise from the flame - they couldn't see it. Unfortunately, neither could the few seagulls who flew directly over the flame and fell dead at the physcist's feet. I hear roasted seagull isn't very tasty.
This is at least one year old. Coleman was selling a similar unit last year.
Widespread use of fuel cells does solve 'the problem' (because you can efficiently store and deliver power): it gives new life to any and all previously-ignored-as-impractical green technologies: solar, wind, tide, geothermal, stationary bicycles.
Hydrogen extraction can also create a more distributed power system. Why not a backyard windmill to supplement what you buy for your car or home?
Coleman To Sell Portable Fuel Cell Generator
-1, Another bloody Simpsons quote that everyone has heard before
Where do you intend to find a cheap source of Platinum? Platinum is an element, not a compound, so they only way you could manufacture it artificially is with a particle accelerator, and that is hardly very efficient.
- MODEL NO. FC01001
- POWER 1000 Continuous Watts
- OVERLOAD CAPACITY 1600 VA for 2 Seconds
- VOLTS 120 VAC +/-3%
- FREQUENCY 60 Hertz
- WAVEFORM Perfect Sine-Wave
- NOISE 65 dba @ 1 Meter
- FUEL CELL Ballard NexaTM Power Module
- SURGE PROTECTION 360 Joules
- BATTERIES Sealed Lead Acid
- WEIGHT (LESS FUEL) 101 lbs.
- DIMENSIONS 27.3" x 15.8" x 19"
- UL APPROVED Yes
- CSA APPROVED Yes
- WARRANTY 1 Year
I though the point was to eliminate batteries?This is not the sig line you are looking for... -- Old Jedi Sig Line Trick
So when it uses up all the oxygen in my room I guess I can expect the pressure to drop rapidly as well since the resulting water vapor far,far more dense a concentration of oxygen and hydrogen.
I am so glad someone pointed this out...I coulda' damaged me ears...
enough of the smart arse stuff...
Why do people worry so much about the tank of hydrogen? A gallon of gasoline has about 60% more hydrogen than a gallon of liquid hydrogen at 20 degrees K.
This is an interesting topic. I believe that this new fuel cell technology will possibly revolution the world as we know it, but could have devastating effects. Because some of the specs show unstability to the operation, It could ultimately lead to total depetion of the entire cells, which would make it worthless in the first place.
I was trying to imagine what a hydrogen tank would sound like when it is exposed to flame for a while, as in a structural fire. I guess you could always make "the new guy" sit next to the Coleman in your office.
test
Seems a computer engineer, a systems analyst, and a programmer were
driving down a mountain when the brakes gave out. They screamed down the
mountain, gaining speed, but finally managed to grind to a halt, more by
luck than anything else, just inches from a thousand foot drop to jagged
rocks. They all got out of the car:
The computer engineer said, "I think I can fix it."
The systems analyst said, "No, no, I think we should take it
into town and have a specialist look at it."
The programmer said, "OK, but first I think we should get back
in and see if it does it again."
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