Digital Rights Management on CD's This Christmas?

McDrewbie asks: "Has anyone discovered that the new CD's found under the tree or in their stocking don't play on their brand new CD player? My father got a Brookstone Wafer-thin CD system and several new CD's. Most play fine, however several ones from Sony (with CDextra software on them) and from Columbia, either don't play or play with some crackling and popping, yet play fine on our older CD player. Did these companies decide to quietly unleash DRM on the public this holiday season? Or is this just a problem with the new player (separate from it not being DRM capable)? What are other Slashdot readers experiencing today?"

Comments

DRM for a present

[Speedy8]

I think that DRM for a present is worse then coal.

Re:DRM for a present

[gooberguy]

Yes, you are right. I got a lump of coal for christmas and I can use it to heat my house. I bet those who got DRM are freezing to death. Poor bastards. Too bad they didn't get coal for christmas.

Re:DRM for a present

[Anonvmous Coward]

"I gave my sister coal for christmas as a joke."

Did you tell her the coal will turn into diamond? Are you engaged now? Heh.

(it's a joke, laugh.)

Re:DRM for a present

[CommieOverlord]

Well, you could burn the CDs. Plastic is just oil after all.

Although, the various chemicals would probably kill you if you burned too many.

Re:DRM for a present

[Slashdotess]

The RIAA execs who gave the DRM didn't need any coal, their coldbloodedness takes care of those problems.

Re:DRM for a present

[uncoveror]

Indeed! If the disc won't play, it is defective. Take it back, and join the ever-growing boycott of the recording industry. When you take the disc back, demand a cash refund. Remember, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and the customer is always right.

Re:DRM for a present

[Dachannien]

Yes, but at least now they can keep their coffee tables free of nasty beverage container damage.

Re:DRM for a present

[macdaddy357]

Funny you should ask about taking it to court.

If you bought any of the "copy protected" discs that won't play in your computer, Follow this link to the Milberg Weiss Law firm, and join Dickey V. Universal Music Group et. al, a class action suit against the manufacturers of these defective discs that frequently use the Compact Disc digital audio logo improperly.

That comes off the links page of a consumer group boycotting the recording industry, for DRM, price gouging, and harassment of file traders. Dontbuycds.org A previous poster gave the link to that organization, but not to the class action suit, so , pay attantion mods, this post is not redundant!

Re:DRM for a present

[operagost]

Has anyone considered that it might be his spiffy new stereo that's (sort of) at fault? Better try some other CDs on it. It could just be that it's not very tolerant of defective discs. I know that I have on Santana greatest hits disc that sometimes plays well on my ca. 1996 car changer, but other times I'll hear popping. I think it's either out of balance, or the center hole is a little off so the changer doesn't always seat it properly. Meanwhile, an even older 1994 home changer played it fine, along with a 2000 DVD player.

Anyway, it might be just that all those new CDs happen to be a little "off", so exchanging them might do the trick.

Take them back...

[Anonymous Coward]

Get a refund & then d/l them to burn on CD-R...

If the music companies want to mess around, play them at their own game! :)

Re:Take them back...

[spanky1]

What I want to know is how you would go about getting a refund. Most (if not all?) stores have a exchange-only-if-defective policy with music.

Re:Take them back...

[orangesquid]

Customer walks into store with a CD from the store, a receipt, a couple other CD's, and two discmans.
Customer: I'd like a refund on the CD I bought here.
Employee: Sorry, we only refund CD's if they are defective.
Customer: Well, I haven't scratched this or anything [shows bottom of CD], but look.
Customer plays the other CD's just fine on both discmans, but attempts to play the CD from the store and both of them barf.
Employee, fumbling: Well, ummm, if you take that to, uhhh, customer service...

Re:Take them back...

[Dalcius]

Are the CDs labeled with a DRM sticker? If not, AFAIK, they're not following the standards of an audio CD. Hence, they're defective.

They don't play in your CD player. Regardless of what they say to the above, I think you can make a very good case.

Re:Take them back...

[apoupc]

Bring the CD Player that doesn't play them correctly with you to the store so they can hear it if they won't give you a refund. If they will let you exchange it, get all the copies of the CD and open them up one by one until they give up and give you your money back. If they say its a problem with the CD player, have your other CDs at hand.

Re:Take them back...

[jez9999]

How smart do you have to be, then, to take your brand-new SEALED copy to a different store to exchange it for whatever you want???

Smart enough to forge the receipt of that store? I don't think they'd exchange it without you showing them the receipt as well.

Re:Take them back...

[rusty spoon]

And the final counter to this, thus the store wins, is to say "We are not responsible for the labeling, packaging, and so forth. We only sell them. If you wish to pursue this, here is the number of our distributor (or whatever number they decide to provide). You should take it up with them. If they will give us a refund, we'll gladly extend it to you."

Here in the UK that won't fly. When you buy from a store you are making a transaction with the store, not the store's suppliers.

Where they get them from is not relevant. The contract is between you and the store. They should stop whining about their crummy suppliers and give a refund.

If they do start this approach and seem unmovable on it then I'd suggest quietly telling them you are going to get very loud and angry if you don't get your own way - there's isn't a store in the land that wants a noisy and angry ex-customer in-store, They'll soon pay the refund and have you on your way ;-)

Remember, when you buy stuff the contract is between you and the store - not you and the entire supply chain of the store.

which cd's?

[tezzery]

Anyone care to offer some insight as to which cd titles are doing this? ... so I can save the trouble of buying them and skip right ahead to downloading the mp3's :)

Re:which cd's?

[linuxbaby]

They're all listed at Fat Chuck's List of Corrupt CDs.

Re:which cd's?

[drDugan]

"the country of freedom and liberty"

not anymore: [[ from an AC slashdot post today
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=49046&cid=4962 648 ]]

"""

here is a snapshot on how these fucks think:

"If you don't violate someone's human rights some of the time, you probably aren't doing your job," said one official who has supervised the capture and transfer of accused terrorists. "I don't think we want to be promoting a view of zero tolerance on this. That was the whole problem for a long time with the CIA."

found this in a quick search in TODAY's news. if you are not paranoid about our government, you're not listening.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A379 43-2002Dec25.html

"""

Re:which cd's?

[kasperd]

They're all listed

I bet they are not all on that list. The one I got for christmas says "COPY CONTROL" on the cover. So I assume it is YACCD (yet another corrupt CD), but it is not on the list. But then again, I didn't have time to test it yet.

Re:which cd's?

[kasperd]

where do you suppose the MP3's will be coming from if all the CDs have copy protection?

If the "CD" can be played it can be copied. It is as simple as that, there is no such thing as copy protection. What they usually do is make errors on the disc and hope for devices used for copying to be more sensitive to errors than players.

Re:which cd's?

[Rogerborg]

Hurrah, you get to be the guy that puts it on the list. Take a penny, leave a penny.

Personally...

[NanoGator]

"Or is this just a problem with the new player (separate from it not being DRM capable)? " .. I'd recommend getting a broadband connection and an iPod. That'll solve all your problems with defective media(intentionally or otherwise).

Re:Personally...

[Kinniken]

"Or is this just a problem with the new player (separate from it not being DRM capable)? " .. I'd recommend getting a broadband connection and an iPod. That'll solve all your problems with defective media(intentionally or otherwise).

lol, my father got one (the iPod). Sure beat DRM CDs ;-)

BTW, it had a "Don't steal music" sticker to fight piracy. Take your pick between the different protection systems, I've made my choide :P

Re:Personally...

[NanoGator]

".. I'd recommend getting a broadband connection and an iPod. That'll solve all your problems with defective media(intentionally or otherwise). "

Heh I don't think the moderators understood that I was being sarcastic.

Crappy drive mechanisim?

[aaronsb]

Playing the "protected" cds in a CDROM drive would quickly reveal if they are truly copy protected.

I've found that a lot of the stuff you can buy from the sharper image, brookstone, etc. is kind of cheesy. Maybe it's just a crappy drive mechanisim.

Re:Crappy drive mechanisim?

[ackthpt]

I've found that a lot of the stuff you can buy from the sharper image, brookstone, etc. is kind of cheesy.

I've felt the same way about their stuff the past couple years. It looks pretty cool in the catalogs, but there is a Sharper Image store down the road and much of the stuff, up close, looks like maybe a good idea manufactured cheaply. In some cases, a stupid idea, altogether. Catalogs can sell stuff you wouldn't normally buy, because some little deception (usually a hot babe holding/using it) used to redirect your attention from it's faults.

That said... With all the crap the music industry has been doing lately, I'm less inclined to buy their products. Are they going to dismiss my few hundred $ a year, no longer spent, on music piracy? I don't even download MP3's (I haven't even had a system I could do anything with them until recently.) I'm more likely to visit the local used CD store and pick up old, pre-DRM music (which might become a hot collector's item if the current trend continues.)

Some day on eBay:

3034898724 Beatles Sgt Pepper Non DRM Current bid: $57.61

Re:Crappy drive mechanisim?

[hitzroth]

I haven't bought a new CD in years. There's a bunch of used book and CD stores and near me that sell the kind of stuff I like. Yeah, these sales don't go to support the artists, which is a bummer, but they also don't support tyrannical record companies, either -- yet.

I forsee the recording industry getting its way with used CD sales -- enacting a kind of "RIAA tax" on each used CD sold -- if the demand for DRM-free CD's out-strips the demand for new CD's. Governmentally mandated profits! I mean, why would anyone listen to the consumer anymore? Ignoring supply and demand worked for Communist Russia, it can work for RIAA.

*sigh* No, the DRM CD's will probably sell as well as, if not better than, the DRM-free jobbers. Most people won't notice, and won't care about, the difference in functionality if the CD's sound the same. Not because they're "lusers" or "sheep" but because there won't be any change in how they listen to music.

Re:Crappy drive mechanisim?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Not to get too off topic but damn that is racist. You are correct that "gyp" comes from gypsie, or roma. But that stereotype of them is like saying that Jews have lots of money and are bankers and swindlers."

Seeing as how nobody today pictures gypsies when using the term 'gyped', it cannot be classified as a racist comment.

Besides, Gypsies really aren't a 'race' per se. It's a way of life.

Re:Crappy drive mechanisim?

[jdreed1024]

Besides, Gypsies really aren't a 'race' per se. It's a way of life.

Are you some kind of idiot? The original Gypsies are most definitely a race. The name for that race is "Roma" or "Romani". However, there are few of them left, as they have been persecuted throughout history, especially during the holocaust. (Hitler and his allies killed as many Gypsies as Jews, but it's not politically correct to mention any race except the Jews when talking about the Holocaust. {And, for the record, I'm Jewish, so don't bother accusing me of racism} ) In the '60s and '70s many hippies adopted the "Gypsy lifestyle", some even living in restored caravans, however, the original Gypsies were most definitely a race.

Re:Crappy drive mechanisim?

[racermd]

More specifically, the CD/Book you purchase at the used CD/Book store has already done it's damage when it came out of it's original shrinkwrap. It's now unable to generate revenue for the media companies, but it's also unable to generate revenue for the artist.

I do have a small gripe, though. By buying the music that the major media companies "produce", you are still supporting them. Just because you bought yours second-hand doesn't mean that the media companies haven't recieved their money. It's the person that purchased it the first time that gave them the money ala First Sale. But your demand in the second-hand market may have given someone the courage to buy a CD they normally wouldn't normally have purchased, safe in the knowledge that they could easily sell it to the used CD store where the value of that CD has risen due to higher demand and recouping more of his/her original costs in purchasing the CD new.

Yes, it's a bit of a stretch, but it does happen and is very much a factor in the valuation of new CDs of similar content.

I do applaud your effort to minimize the impact your dollar (or other currency) has in supporting these blood-sucking lawyer-wannabes, however. If/when I purchase new music for my collection, I try to buy CDs directly from independent artists when they're performing locally. After that, I head to the used CD store. I *never* buy new CDs, except royalty-free blanks for my PC.

Re:Crappy drive mechanisim?

[kubrick]

Just as a piece of trivia, people used to say "You jewed me down on that one." No, really.

Besides, Gypsies really aren't a 'race' per se. It's a way of life.

Gypsy also Gipsy Pronunciation Key (jps)
n. pl. Gypsies

1. A member of a people that arrived in Europe in migrations from northern India around the 14th century, now also living in North America and Australia. Many Gypsy groups have preserved elements of their traditional culture, including an itinerant existence and the Romany language.
2. See Romany.
3. gypsy One inclined to a nomadic, unconventional way of life.
4. A person who moves from place to place as required for employment, especially:
1. A part-time or temporary member of a college faculty.
2. A member of the chorus line in a theater production.

Re:Crappy drive mechanisim?

[jdreed1024]

You think because you're jewish, you can't be a racist??? WHAT A MORON!!!

no, genius, what I meant was it's pretty ridiculous to accuse me of hating my own race/religion.

Re:Crappy drive mechanisim?

[BluedemonX]

Don't laugh - that argument is made on MANY an occasion on liberal forums.

Their argument is: racism = prejudice + power. And since the only people with the power in the society are white heterosexual WASP males, it's impossible for women to be racist (they're disenfranchised), or for blacks, Jews, Arabs, etc. to be racist.

They charmingly then go on to say that this is FACT and is not to be questioned, or you're banned from their forums. Try www.mamatron.org and see what their policy is on "racism".

Liberal arseholes.

Re:Crappy drive mechanisim?

[kubrick]

Racial stereotypes are something that I don't like to see, because people have tended to use them to denigrate and hurt others, over something that is a not a matter of choice (e.g. you don't choose to be white, black, Jewish or Uzbeki). I don't like it any better when absorbed by the communities themselves (e.g. films by Greek comedians like 'Wog Boy' here in Australia, or 'My Big Fat Greek Wedding' in the US, to pick one particular often-stereotyped culture), as it just reinforces the idea that it's OK to stereotype people based on their race.

Just a personal preference, I know many others don't agree with me. But seeing the victimisation of Westerners in Asia, and Indonesians, Afghanis and Iraqis here in Oz, just makes me hope that the day comes quickly where people won't assume that, just because their 'targets' are from a certain background, it's acceptable to attack those individual people as if they have all the terrible attributes that that they think the entire group possesses. Judge people by their own actions, not those of their ethnic grouping.

Previous Stories

[Anonymous Coward]

The Corrupted Audio CDs category at the ODP has several background stories, many from /.

I wonder...

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Has anyone discovered that the new CD's found under the tree or in their stocking don't play on their brand new CD player?"

I wonder if the RIAA realizes that they're pushing me towards MP3's when they pull shit like this. I mean seriously, they'll have no trouble blaming P2P music trading for their downfall if the MP3 is higher quality!

Re:I wonder...

[NanoGator]

"I wonder if the RIAA realizes that they're pushing me towards MP3's when they pull shit like this."

I think Slashdot should start an event called "Music Return Day". Here's how it works: Get as many people to buy a known copy-restricted CD as possible. Then, locate a national store that'll accept returns on 'defective CDs' (Best Buy or Walmart maybe?) then, on a particular date, have everybody return that CD.

Heh imagine slashdotting Equifax.

Re:I wonder...

[Aggrazel]

[i]"I think Slashdot should start an event called "Music Return Day". Here's how it works: Get as many people to buy a known copy-restricted CD as possible. Then, locate a national store that'll accept returns on 'defective CDs' (Best Buy or Walmart maybe?) then, on a particular date, have everybody return that CD.[/i]

Actually, my wife works at Target. She told me that there are several CDs with "known" issues that they'll take back and exchange for another CD with no questions asked, even though the normal exchange policy is for the same title only if opened. They are returned frequently for not working in people's players.

I don't have a list of the titles, but from what I gather its becoming more and more common. To the point that it will probably annoy the corporate buyers enough that this stuff will stop before it gets too common, IMO.

Re:I wonder...

[interiot]

If Target has a list of CD's that are known to not work, why don't they give that information to the consumer up front so they don't have to go through the hassle of coming back to return it?

Re:I wonder...

[Cato the Elder]

Many people have CD players where it won't be a problem, but would be scared away by an up-front warning. Futhermore, some people won't bother to return the CD. Together, these probably outway the expense of processing returns for Target.

It would be interesting to see if they'd show you the list if you asked.

Re:I wonder...

[rmohr02]

Why bother to make sure the chain will refund the item. If it's defective, make them give you a refund. If they don't, make a scene--they'll ask you to leave, but they can't make you leave you leave until a cop comes.

Re:I wonder...

[Psion]

Caveat Emptor, my friend. You see, you're relying on a third party to protect you rather than going in aware of the risk yourself. Never assume someone else is going to go to the bother of protecting your interests -- they shouldn't and you have no right to expect it. Communities like this one are where we, as consumers, become aware of problems like this.

Are there any sites devoted to listing "bad" CDs?

Also post them to the complete list of corrupt CDs

[linuxbaby]

The world's most complete list of music CDs that can't be copied or played on computers and many other electronics equipment, is at Fat Chuck's Corrupt CDs list.

Please also post any new corrupt or DRM CDs you find on that complete list, there.

(While you're at it, boycott the RIAA by buying independent CDs, instead!)

CD EXTRA defined

[prisen]

From Sony's website: CD EXTRA combines the worlds of Music and Multimedia. A traditional audio CD when placed in an audio CD player, CD EXTRA offers a free interactive multimedia experience when played in a computer's CD-ROM drive *. CD EXTRA offers the music fan a closer look at their favorite artists, with many CD EXTRAs containing exclusive content. Other CD EXTRAs contain Internet Service Provider Software which allows you to connect to the Internet.

It's not DRM, AFAIK. I've got several Sony CD EXTRA CD's that are nothing more than multisession CD's that some audio CD players simply cannot handle. However, I don't think you can get the same CD offered in both CD EXTRA and non-CD EXTRA formats, so you may be out of luck when trying to play those particular discs in those particular audio CD players; in fact, some older CD-ROM drives can't even handle 'em.

DRM sucks...

[I'm a racist.]

First, if it has DRM is it really a "CD"?

Second - COMPLAIN!

Regardless of it being DRM or a faulty player, you should be compensated. You bought a product (be it the CDs or the player) that does not work. Try complaining about the CD player first (and try the CDs in a few other machines too). Get your player and/or CDs replaced or get refunds.

If it is DRM, they should have labelled it, and they deserve to take some shit for fucking over their customers.

Re:DRM sucks...

[SweetAndSourJesus]

Wow, that's so insightful!

I've never read those sentiments anywhere before. I find your completely original outlook on these matters interesting, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Keep those stunningly fresh and new ideas coming!

Re:DRM sucks...

[MillionthMonkey]

The thing is, if we censor this fuck, then we're accused of being "un-American" or some shit like that.

Maybe not "un-American", since shouting down unpopular opinions seems to be in vogue here nowadays.

But really, you shouldn't censor people just for holding unpopular opinions, especially when they're not even expressing those opinions at the moment. Even a white supremacist might have something to teach you, as long as you know which topics to avoid. I might listen to a racist if he's talking about how to polish a gun or clean a deer, even though I know not to listen when the topic of race comes up.

Sometimes I hate being libertarian, we're _supposed_ to defend the rights of ignorant sister-kissing cousin-fscking inbred so-and-so's like this.

It amazes me how many people are attracted to libertarianism and yet don't understand the concepts behind it. Yeah, freedom for other people can sometimes suck, especially when they're expressing an unpopular opinion, but the censoring of unpopular opionions is the first step down a dangerous path.

And to all the people complaining about the modding up of this guy's post- the moderation applies to the post, not its author. This particular post has no offensive content that I can see. (Although I wouldn't waste mod points on it, because it really doesn't merit an "Insightful".) And the guy is at least honest about who he is. I wish all racists would announce up front who they were.

Re:DRM sucks...

[Psion]

[applauds] Excellent post, sir! I don't have mod points at the moment, so I'll risk going off-topic and tell you personally. Over the Internet. Er. Not so personally. Well, good post, anyway.

Re:DRM sucks...

[MillionthMonkey]

So, the question is, would you listen to the racist if he said "If you use these bullets, they'll go into the nigger without breaking up his internal parts and still kill him dead as a doornail"?

Well I might be willing to put up with an offensive description if I'm really that desperate and the information isn't available elsewhere. I guess it's all a matter of what you're willing to put up with. As long as the topic is ammunition and not politics, I might put up with it, keeping in mind that he's an idiot if he talks like that.

The point behind the question is that my experience with racists shows that race always comes up in conversation, from simpe things like "I went to the gas station and sand nigger behind the counter carded me" to more complex things like "I ate a burger at this place but all the tables I saw looked like a nigger picnic. I won't go there until they clean the place up." Remove the race references and the statements themselves are making valid points that any one of us would say, the only difference being the racial references.

Yeah, that's usually true. However notice that in this case the guy managed to squeeze out an entire post with no references at all to chinks, wops, kikes, or sand niggers! And he still got a harsh reaction, which was entirely based on his username and signature- i.e. at who he was, not at what he was saying- which, in this particular case, happened to be completely mundane and inoffensive.

Re:DRM sucks...

[MillionthMonkey]

If Bill Gates came in and posted an insightful criticism on the open source world, and the GPL, and free software, and he could be genuinely determined to be the *real* Bill gates at Microsoft, would he be modded away? Would he receive the same harsh criticism?

I'm sure if Bill Gates bothered to show up here he'd be moderated up to 5 even if all he wrote was "FUCK YOU".

Re:DRM sucks...

[ONOIML8]

"Sometimes I hate being libertarian..."

Are you aware that you can change freely? You can even become an independent and use your own mind.

There might be twelve-step programs available, I'm not sure. But the point is that if you hate it you have the power to change it.

Peace

With Nukes.

DRM ON CD'S

[TREETOP]

Is it me or does the DRM sound a lot like the last desperate act of an industry on the ropes? How long before they realize that the average consumer does not care whether they make a profit or not? As I see it, technology is ripping into those profits like a hungry coyote into a bucket of KFC. And the middlemen do not like sharing. With anyone. Ever.

Re:DRM ON CD'S

[Helix150]

The thing is that sharing isnt hurting profits. There have been several studies (that arent funded by RIAA groups) that say people who download actually buy MORE music. And it makes sense... if your friend recommends a CD you're not going to spend money unless you know you'll like it, so you download it and test it. Not everyone, but some people do. Profits are down because fewer albums are released each year. not cuz of file sharing.

File sharing isnt going to kill the music industry, but it might save it.

Re:DRM ON CD'S

[m1a1]

As I see it, technology is ripping into those profits like a hungry coyote into a bucket of KFC.

Actually a close look at the evidence suggests that technology hasn't touched their profits. As was mentioned in an article on both the reg and slashdot, if the industry released the same amount of cds per year today as they did several years ago, then each of those cds would only have to sell 3,000 copies (an utter failure) to have them right back where they were before P2P came about. Oh well, they have only themselves to blame.

Re:DRM ON CD'S

[rmohr02]

Profits are down because fewer albums are released each year. not cuz of file sharing.

Well, there's also the fact that new music generally sucks.

Got a Rio Volt MP3-CD player for christmas...

[Bonker]

Downloaded the manual from Diamond/Sonic-blue.

I was quite gratified to see that while the Volt supports WMA format, it does not support copy protected WMA files. In fact, the manual walks the user through disabling copy protection in Media Player.

Now if only the Volt supported Ogg Vorbis...

Re:Got a Rio Volt MP3-CD player for christmas...

[exhilaration]

Now if only the Volt supported Ogg Vorbis...

They're working on it.

Re:Got a Rio Volt MP3-CD player for christmas...

[Hubert_Shrump]

I hope so. The thing is schweet.

I corresponded w/ a tech through email all thanksgiving (granted, he was in the UK...) and he helped a LINUX operator through some scary firmware re-flashing.

Good folk -- my experience.

Thank you, H. Fiennes!

Let's review

[jayhawk88]

1. Dad's new CD player doesn't play some of our Sony CD's that have CD-Extra on them.
2. These CD's play fine on our other CD players.

Conclusion: DRM!!1!! OMFG!!!1! D00d, that Sux0r!!1!

In other news, my new Dell with Windows XP had trouble recieving Groupwise email the other day. Clearly M$ has decided to secretly break all other mail programs besides Outlook.

Re:Let's review

[NightRain]

You obviously missed the question at the end of the article.

Let me quote it for you . Did these companies decide to quietly unleash DRM on the public this holiday season? Or is this just a problem with the new player (separate from it not being DRM capable)? There. See how he asks whether the problem is related to DRM or if it's an issue with his player? You jump down the writers throat for no reason. Posting it in the context of some of the replies to this article would make sense. But straight off the article itself, as if the author is some sort of dweeb is a little rich

Re:Let's review

[greenrd]

Well, let's consider. What's more likely - DRM, or a bug in the new CD player's digital-to-analog conversion circuits?

If you don't know the answer to that question, perhaps you shouldn't be mocking something you don't understand.

Re:Let's review

[greenrd]

Don't you think it's unlikely that a CD player would break in such a way that it still worked perfectly for some CDs and not others? In a consistent way. This seems like an implausible explanation to me.

Re:Let's review

[iomud]

Clearly M$ has decided to secretly break all other mail programs besides Outlook

*cough*lotus notes*cough*

Re:Let's review

[NightRain]

OK... so why didn't the dumbass go down to the Brookstone store and return it?

Err, because he doesn't know if it's an issue with DRM on CD, or with the player itself...

Re:Let's review

[JohnFluxx]

Can you expand on this?

Re:Let's review

[Chris Canfield]

Several major record companies have committed themselves to implementing DRM technologies in their CD releases, and many more are experimenting. The general concensus amongst the industry is not whether the CD labels are going to DRM everything, but when. They have also steadfastly refused to indicate on the packaging if it is redbook or not, so when this event happens, we won't be informed about it except by communicating with other consumers. This "dumbass" poster was starting this dialog to see if such an event had begun.

I look forward to that day. If the major record labels cut themselves off from this truly massive distribution and information method, similar to the radio in scope and potential effect on sales, then we will have a massive music source that is 100% independent. This will encourage purchasing independent or small label CD's, and perhaps revitalize the local music industry.

Please, Please Bertleman... take your tail out of this advertising medium. Take your 20$ CD's and leave. I can't wait to have a pure independent music channel. That sounds wonderful.

-C

Re:Let's review

[NightRain]

Ah, I see where you are coming from. But I am thinking about a compatibility fault with that line of players rather than that player specifically. But even so, the question is still an interesting one worth asking, presuming it's anything more than a simple fault in one player

Re:Let's review

[Otter]

I have several CDs that fail to play in the Linux box I usually use to play music in my office, but which work fine in other players, including computer CD drives. And they're way too old to have DRM issues (Van Halen live album, Superunknown). Someone here can probably explain this better, but I imagine there are marginal discs and marginal players and the intersection of the two doesn't work.

Anyway, I don't get what the question is. Of course DRM CDs are out there -- as a bunch of posters have pointed out, there are extensive lists already. Macs have particular problems with one of the methods. So far, I've only hit one (the new J.Lo. album*) but I don't listen to a lot of new music.

* Before someone vibes me about J.Lo.: if I listen to that Van Halen album (where Sammy Hagar covers Won't Get Fooled Again -- 'Meet the new boss. Ughhh! Same as the old boss. Wooooo!') at work, do you think I give a damn about your scorn? Hey, I was at 7 Seconds and Agent Orange shows when no one even knew punks still existed! J.Lo. rules. Although I confess I'm pessimistic about this Ben Affleck deal.

Re:Let's review

[fermion]

And whether it is DRM, CD Extra, or some other crap from the music industry, the fact remains that discs that are marketed as CDs do not play on a consumer stand alone CD player. This is unacceptable. The notion that it would be acceptable to market a CD that is designed to not function on certain consumer CD players, even though the players themselves follow the standard is, in my mind, close to fraudulent. Combine that with the fact that many stores will no longer take accept opened CDs, and we have a situation that shows great disrespect to the customer. Such behavior will just decrease the likelyhood that people will buy CDs for present. Who wants to give a broken present?

In addition, you analogy is flawed. You would find very few people who believe that one needs a special CD player to listen to a store bought CD. You would find very few people, at least who knows what Groupwise is, to expect an XP machine to receive Groupwise. However, that may be because no one expects XP to work in any reasonable fashion.

Re:Let's review

[jayhawk88]

The point was that maybe the author should have eliminated the obvious possibilities before running to Slashdot screaming about secret DRM releases and how the end of freedom was nigh. Chicken Little and all of that.

Re:Let's review

[avdp]

I don't see how it's easier. You have to unplug everything, repack everything into the styrofoam molded box (hopefully you kept it), drive down to the store, line up with all the other people returning stuff (lots of people after xmas), fill out the forms - and then if you're lucky, the refund will show up on the credit card in a timely fashion.

Again, how is this easier?

Re:Let's review

[kruczkowski]

I think it was SP6 for NT that broke Notes.

-1 redundant

[JeanBaptiste]

The only people they are keeping honest with this bull$hit are honest people. The only people they are annoying with this $hit are honest AOL users. Anybody with a /. account will say 'big deal, if I can hear it I can rip it, a hack will be out within hours, no problem etc.' I am not worried about this $hit for my sake, I am worried about this for the non-technical people, whom are 99% of the people I meet.

DRM won't stop the 'criminals', it will merely annoy those who are honest.

Re:-1 redundant

[interstellar_donkey]

You're starting to sound suspiciously like some sort of gun rights advocate.

What's next, 'If access to unrestricted recording technology is outlawed, only outlaws will have access to unrestricted recording technology'?

Somehow that doesn't have the ring I was hoping for.

Re:-1 redundant

[interstellar_donkey]

The post was in the spirit of levity. I don't think any sort of substance was implied.

as far as gun ownership is concerned.... I own several. You own none. If a criminal reads this post, who is he more likely to mug?

Hard to say. I don't have a 12x CD Burner, (I don't have any). A smart criminal would probably go for the loot, despite the risks.

Re:Also post them to the complete list of corrupt

[prewashedironman]

Also, for a list of UK Cd's, There is the UK campaign for digital rights, with their list of cd's at the Campaign for digital rights

Elvis Collection

[phorm]

My sister got the grandparents a CD with "The Best of Elvis." It doesn't play on the home CD player... it spins up, and then the player skips to the next disc. I haven't verified it on another player, but I'd imagine that it may be DRM?

What's all this talk about "playing it their way"?

[foolip]

Half of these comments are saying that it's no problem, since you can just download the music as mp3s (cough, vorbis!!, cough). While I would personally never (ever) buy a cd with copy protection, I think this mentality is sort of stupid. I actually believe that you should support the artists which you like. Yes, perhaps artists don't get very much when you buy a cd, but listen. You're not punishing the record labels buy not buying their stuff! Ok, perhaps they get less money, but it's not like it makes a difference (consumer power to hell). What would be nice to do is:
1. Buy the disc, rip it (as ogg vorbis, not fscking mp3). I've yet to encounter a copy protected disc which can't be copied...
2. Turn the disc back to the store, claiming it's useless. (it is, sort of)
3. Send a check to the artists, and say that you like them, but hate their record label, and explain what you did.
4. Send a letter to the record label, say that you hate them, and tell them what you did about it.

I'll admit I've never actually done this myself (because none of the music I like has been copy protected so far). But, hey, doesn't it sound like something?

DRM? More like bad pressing

[Lucius Sour]

I'm just a part time nerd. My line of work is making records. Most of the time my blood, sweat and tears (it comes to that much of the time) gets mangled by bad pressing. CDs are virually worthless. On a long pressing run (on E. John or yet another Bleatles greatest hits) the unit cost is negligible. It has often been felt that long playing-time CDs (greatest-blah-album-ever type things) sound poor but the wisdom is that digits-is-digits. Until Studio Sound actually tested this assertion. Bugger me if it wasn't true. Something to do with narrow track widths, thin allyplate and jitter. Time was that we, the producers, used to get a test pressing, to make sure that the inevitable transition to consumer formats hadn't sucked all the life from our babies. After all, as Producers it's our job to give the company a saleable product. Not anymore.They just press 'em, ship 'em and stack 'em. I've heard such abortions (of recordings I bust my guts over) coming from pressing plants that any cack you hear is possibly just bad pressing. Then again, The Enemy (the bastard cokehead record execs) may just be trying a technological stay of their inevitable execution. Chop away. We who actually make the records can't wait for the day when all OUR profits aren't snorted. Happy New Year to all fellow techs (and good luck getting that cabbie job to record company executives.)

Re:DRM? More like bad pressing

[sconeu]

Sorry, but this sounds like bullshit to me.

has often been felt that long playing-time CDs (greatest-blah-album-ever type things) sound poor but the wisdom is that digits-is-digits. Until Studio Sound actually tested this assertion. Bugger me if it wasn't true. Something to do with narrow track widths,

Bullshit. It doesn't matter how long the audio portion is so long as it's less than 80 (or 74) minutes. The track is the same width, regardless, it simply doesn't go all the way to the outside portion of the disk.

This guy is just trying to sound like he knows what he's talking about.

Re:DRM? More like bad pressing

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I would attribute it the post lacking organization and not having paragraphs or whitespace.

Re:DRM? More like bad pressing

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Doh! I shouldn't post when tired. Correct it to:

"I would attribute it to the post lacking organization and not having paragraphs or whitespace."

Re:DRM? More like bad pressing

[Lumpy]

aha! I got one! you admitted that you master audio cd's right?

can you please answer a question for me? Why are almost every audio CD out there mastered so crappily that they sound like utter garbage? I have several gold master CD's made back in the 1980's from supertramp, Queen, and ABBA (ok you can take me out and shoot me for the ABBA cd) that sount at least 100 times better than anything I can buy today. They are dynamic have a really low noise floor and over sound fantastic... take any CD from today and they might as well be on a cassette tape.. they have a high noise floor, are so compressed that everything is muddied and overall it sounds like I'm listening with earmuffs.

I'm betting it's the fact that the one supertramp gold refrence master I have took 1 year to master while today an album takes what.... 2-3 days?

why do CD's completely suck today compared to yeaterday and what they are capable of?

Re:DRM? More like bad pressing

[CaptainSuperBoy]

You said it, it's compression plain and simple. Today's CDs have no dynamic range, in an effort to be the loudest song on the radio.

Re:DRM? More like bad pressing

[sconeu]

I don't have any problem with the idea that bad plants may make CDs that don't comply with the specifications, either in "track widths" (size of pits, I guess) or track jitter. That may lead to errors reading the CDs.

Oh, I agree. What I thought was BS was the OP's assertion that they used narrow tracks to make "LP" style CDs.

Check it on a newer system.

[AltGrendel]

It's probably the size of the CD itself. I believe that the Elvis CD is actually an 80 minute CD and older players have problems with that.

Re:Fuck slashdot

[Didion Sprague]

>> No grip, we told her. Just us camera guys, the producer, and Ray Ray the director. "Then Ray Ray," she'd scream. "Let me fuck a man named Ray Ray."

This is off-topic, but why are the best comments -- the funniest -- oftentimes posted by Anonymous Cowards? This comment -- the whole thing about the grip and the bottled sweat -- is bizarre and disturbing. Isn't there some sort of "off-topic but interesting" mod option?

On-topic, my question: now that DRM is more ubiquitous, how do figure out whether or not the CD is at fault or the player? I mean, how do you know whether or not the Brookstone player you mention is actually bad?

I'm finding, actually, that while CDs are being mucked and fussed with, the quality of new CD players is actually going down. Components I bought years ago seem more rugged -- and able to play more CDs -- than recent stuff.

Experiencing today....

[StarTux]

Wishing I had more time off from work. Was a welcome break.

Re:What's all this talk about "playing it their wa

[manly_15]

2. Turn the disc back to the store, claiming it's useless. (it is, sort of)

Unfortunately, many stores, such as HMV have stopped accepting returns on opened CD's, claiming that there is the possibility that they have been copied. At least we know that the CD stores are smart enough to know that any copy protection can and will be broken.

This is not "DRM"

[tuxlove]

The CDs in question are copy-protected. They are designed to play properly in a standard, dumb CD player, but not a "smart" CD player like the ones you find in your computer. Manufacturers are now starting to put CD ROM drives into CD players, which sounds like your problem.

There are numerous copy protection schemes out there, but it sounds like Sony is using the one that has bad error correction info, which makes the disc sound like crap if the CD player pays attention to it. Dumb ones don't, and tend to play normally (until you get scratches on your CD!).

Of course, anyone willing to spend about 10 minutes researching the issue can find the appropriate software/hardware to rip copy protected discs just fine. Copy protection will only stop the least sophisticated users from ripping the music. Just shows how stupid the record labels are.

don't give them money

[mr_burns]

If you don't like DRM CD's, then don't buy any CD's from any label which produces them. They'll get the message.

If you disagree with the RIAA's politics or technological positions and you give their member labels money, you are a hypocrite. Take that money you were going to give to Sony and give it to a label which isn't a corrupt cabal of mobsters. One that will actually give the artists a fair cut of the money and not bootleg CD's under their nose. Or give it to the EFF.

Don't be a hypocrite. Put your money where your mouth is. If you don't like DRM CD's, then boycott the labels that sell them.

Re:don't give them money

[Chris Canfield]

You know, this is a good theory, but we did this. We bought 10% fewer recordings last year from the major labels. And, of course, they have used that against us as a sign that we need far MORE DRM in our lives. It couldn't be a 25% reduction in albums produced, or a ridiculous price creeping far above that set around the world, or a rising anti-RIAA sentimentality. Of course it is Napster's fault.

We can't just boycott the labels. We have to take power away from the labels and give it to the independents. How do we do this? By buying CD's from independent music labels and sharing the first 4 tracks, and refusing to share music from the major labels. Kazaa isn't just a way to avoid the distribution tax... it is a way to discover new music. We need to make sure that music is good, both in quality and in spirit. It would also be great if we could convince major artists to move away from the RIAA labels and strike it out on their own, but so long as they feel that their livelyhood is threatened I doubt that will happen. We'll have to make it happen on our own.

-C

Re:don't give them money

[mr_burns]

Hey Einstein? If you want to have the artists CDs and not just crappy mp3 downloads, you have to buy it from the damn store.

Most record labels aren't majors or members of the RIAA. Same goes for CD releases. Most are on independent labels or the band self-released.

I spend thousands of dollars a year on music. Shows, shirts, CD's...I spend more on music than I do on food. Not a dime goes to majors or RIAA.

And you'd think I was missing out on the 'best' stuff but I'm not. While all those major and RIAA labels are wetting their pants writing songs to conform to clearchannel standards and mastering all the dynamics out of the CD (so theirs will be louder than the competition), the independents are recording music that they like. Music which stands on it's own merits.

As a consumer of music, I have a choice of who I buy music from and why. I choose not to buy music from people who I feel are doing a disservice to musicians and our musical heritage. I actively buy great music from great bands and labels who are not evil.

The major labels are not a utility like PG&E. They are companies who live and die by convincing consumers to give them money. When I can get music which is as good or better from people who treat their musicians and customers with respect there's no reason to pay somebody who acts without ethics or morals. In fact, I feel it's wrong to reward somebody for negative behavior. Rewards are for people who do good.

So if you disagree with what the majors and the RIAA are doing and you give them money, you are a hypocrite. You are saying one thing but doing the other. We are not to blame for their behavior, but we are wrong to reward them for it.

Re:don't give them money

[xigxag]

I think this will eventually happen on its own due to the labels' own self-sabotage.

Already MdDrewbie's noticed that Sony's disks don't seem to play right on his CD player. What happens when the next Sony album comes out? If he's going to get inferior quality, why pay for it? Instead of buying the CD, he might simply download the mp3s from someone else who was able to successfully rip the tracks. Another law-abiding citizen may have been turned into a pirate. As the word spreads that certain CDs from certain companies are not properly playable, more people will desist from buying those products. And eventually they'll stop buying CDs altogether.

Unfortunately, the artists will be caught in the crossfire.

Not only that (Was: I wonder...)

[edgrale]

But these "New DRM-CD" (Digital Restricted Media - Compact Disc) really sucks for people like me that have a MP3 capable cd-player (a Sony...) in their car.

I bought it so I could convert my CDs to MP3 and burn them to a CD-R (or -RW) saving me from having to carry 10+ CDs. Now most of the new CDs wont play on my computer. Not only that but now my original are bound to get scratched, a car is the worst nightmare for a CD.

What do I do? I ask the guy at the store if I can have them in MP3, if not then I buy something else. Hint: the list is growing smaller and smaller day by day.

Re:Not only that (Was: I wonder...)

[jez9999]

What do I do? I ask the guy at the store if I can have them in MP3, if not then I buy something else. Hint: the list is growing smaller and smaller day by day.

1. Buy CD-RW.
2. Download P2P file sharing app.
3. (optional) Pay for a buy CD if you want to pay the record label for it.
4. Download entire CD from P2P app.
5. Burn to CD.
6. Play in car.

Re:Not only that (Was: I wonder...)

[kasperd]

And to make sure the RIAA doesn't get your money, you can return the CD after!

I have been considering that idea before. Is that even illegal? Where I live making a copy for personal use is legal as long as the original is legal. And then we can return the original afterwards because it is corrupt. And since all the other discs they can find will also be corrupt, they will have no choice but paying the money back.

What would it take ...

[Anonvmous Coward]

... to force record labels to change the term 'copy protection' to 'copy restriction'? (Note: Im not claiming to invent that term, somebody else on Slashdot coined the phrase and I have no idea who it is)

There's got to be a legal justification for doing so. If they advertise it as 'protection', it sounds like they're made a superior product that'll play in anything. That sounds like false advertising to me. If they use the term 'restriction', then it's clear there may be playback issues.

DRM ruined 2 gifts I gave

[jdclucidly]

DRM ruined two gifts I gave this XMas:

1. I gave a GE DVD Player to my boyfriend's parents. They came home to watch their new DVD's on their new player only to find that their newer Sony VCR nicely chokes on the DRM watermark fading in and out as it converts the RCA signal in to coax their older TV can use.

2. I gave my boyfriend a Sony MiniDisc Recorder complete with USB link to his computer so that he can record his first "Live Bagpipe Marching Band CD" while he's performing.

   We got it connected to his computer and discovered that their damn software will only allow to transfer songs to your computer that you and only you put on the MiniDisc. There's a petition here to get Sony to enable this ability as many journalist would benefit from this feature. It's not made clear on the packaging that you cannot transfer songs to your computer that you record with a microphone.

Lesson learned: do your homework before buying any electronics from MPAA or RIAA members. :( And especially avoid electronics manufactures that are also content distributors (read: Sony)

Re:DRM ruined 2 gifts I gave

[Keith Russell]

Actually, the DVD/VCR issue is pretty much unavoidable without additional equipment. The DVD spec demands Macrovision encoding on a DVD player's video outputs. Macrovision exploits a specific trait common to the video inputs of all VCRs, regardless of age. So, unless you have some unusual piece of kit, running any DVD player through any VCR will cause Macrovision interference.

There are ways around this problem. De-Macrovision boxes that sit between the DVD and VCR exist. Some DVD players can be fixed by mod chips, flash ROM updates, or hidden setup menus. Other than that, your best bet would be to find a way to avoid running the DVD through the VCR. A switch box and an RF converter would work. I mention a new TV only to point out that only the crappy ones don't have at least one non-RF input. But that's only an option if your budget is more Best Buy than Radio Shack.

As for your MiniDisc problem... (sigh) Sony seems determined to run it into the ground, and yet it still survives. Baffling.

All in all, though, Sony Electronics is still very much a theoretical evil. They can only impose DRM in exclusive or developing markets. Hence, MiniDisc, and Network Walkman products that only use MagicGate Memory Sticks. (Yes, I know there are hacks for purple Sticks, but what other product needs them?) In other markets, competition ensures that DRM is an all-or-nothing proposition. Either everybody standardizes on DRM, like CSS and Macrovision on DVDs, or nobody does. And free-market competition ensures that nobody makes DRM the feature that sets their product apart, since it will only serve as a big "DO NOT BUY" sticker next to the price tag.

Re:DRM ruined 2 gifts I gave

[orthogonal]

I gave a GE DVD Player to my boyfriend's parents.

Ok, so I'm supposed to believe:

you're a girl,

you post to /.,

and you're making enough and you're sweet enough to give nice techy presents to your "boyfriend's" folks.

This is obviously a troll!

Moderators, mod this troll down!

Oh wait.

I gave my boyfriend a Sony MiniDisc Recorder complete with USB link to his computer so that he can record his first "Live Bagpipe Marching Band CD" while he's performing.

Her boyfriend is in a bagpipe band. False alarm; this truly is /. territory.

Nevermind.

uhhh, wait a minute...

[elluzion]

Huge flaw in this logic.

Before I get started, let me clarify that I definitely hate DRM. I pretty much despise large record labels. So I'm not supporting them or anything, but simply sending a check to the artist is crazy.

First, where the hell are you going to send a check? Their fanclub? Do you know Timberlake's address? How about Snoop Dogg's address? How about Creed's address? Tim MCGraw? Whoever it is you listen to, you probably don't have any idea how to actually get money to them, unless they are local to you. And that's an altogether different story.

Secondly, there are TONS of people other than the artist who should be compensated. I mean, just because the CD says "Metallica", it doesnt mean that you are hearing Lars playing the drums on every track. It is very common for artists to hire studio musicians for recording sessions. Especially if they need to meet deadlines while the bassist is in rehab, or jail, or whatever. It happens, a lot, and the session players deserve a cut as well.

Aside from the actual music, there are the studio people. There's as much talent involved with skillful recording as there is with skillful playing. The cover art came from somewhere, and that person should be compensated. There are lots of people who attempt to make honest livings from the production of music and rely on CD sales for a income.

What the RIAA would have you believe is that their job is making sure the revenue gets spread out to all of these people fairly. And we all know this is a bunch of BS.

Really, the best thing to do is to support independant labels when you can. And when you can't, go MP3, Vorbis, whatever. This will (hopefully, if enough people do it) draw the talent away from the RIAA music nazis and empower the independant labels. Everyone benefits.

Re:Fuck slashdot

[StoryMan]

>> Everyone had all sorts of questions. First, where was the beer? Where did it go? And then (of course) how did she manage to pop off the bottlecaps since they weren't screwoffs?

Are you for real? Is this real? Or just fake?

Still, this gets my vote as the thread-of-the-month.

Nothing to do with DRM and DRM protected CDs, but it does seem a shame that most folks won't read this because it's mod'd at 0 and will probably soon be at -1.

multisession in copy protected CDs

[Jucius Maximus]

Some audio copy protection methods use an extra session on the disc to confuse computer-based CD players. This is based on the fact that computer CD players will read the LAST session first, while audio only CD players (except certain car players that are actually CD Rom drives) will play the FIRST session first.

Corrupt data is added to that extra session so computers will go boink when reading it. This is why that magic marker work-around worked -- it prevented the computer from reading the extra session.

Now a good way to make proper back-ups of your Audio CDs is to remove this extra session. This can be done quite easily if you are using a plextor CD-Rw because the DiscDupe software that comes with it will, when presented with an audio CD, do a bit for bit copy of the first session only. This means that the resulting backup will have the protection removed so you can excercise your home use rights and easily make more copies for the car, ogg encoding, etc.

Re:multisession in copy protected CDs

[Imperator]

Of course, you've just had to pay an extra $.20 - $1 to actually listen to the CD you already purchased, depending on how much you pay for your CD-Rs.

Re:multisession in copy protected CDs

[Jucius Maximus]

"Of course, you've just had to pay an extra $.20 - $1 to actually listen to the CD you already purchased, depending on how much you pay for your CD-Rs."

True, but I never use original discs for anything except to make copies to play on my other devices. So if I duplicated it, I would have done that anyway with a non-protected CD.

And even if I wanted to only make OGGs for personal listening, I could just burn the copy to a CD-Rw, rip that, and then re-use the Rw for something else.

Of course I see your overall point. We shouldn't have to post-process a product with our own money that's meant to be used without post-processing as soon as it's bought.

Re:Making my life tougher

[misterhaan]

if your only problem is that you couldn't access a track name database, then why don't you just read the titles from the cd case and enter them yourself? yes i agree it is annoying to have to do that, but it's been my experience that you can't trust whoever enters titles into these databases to get it right all the time anyway. and even if cd-n-go (i've enver used it) won't let you change the track names if it can't find it on freedb, you can always change filenames and id3 tags later!

DRM = Customer screwing..

[Anonvmous Coward]

This is slightly - OT, but at least it's a real life story as to how DRM is harmful to legitimate customers.

I moved a couple of months ago. My GTA 3 disk was damaged in the move through my own carelessness. I contacted the producer of the game to find out how much a simple media exchange would cost. Want to know how much it'll cost? $18 + S&H. That's just for the disk. They can't throw a copy on the burner for me and do it for $5?

I should have backed it up. I'm not sure if I could have or not. I didn't try with this particular game, but I've had to go to rather extreme measures to back up other games I have. You'd think I'd have the right to protect my $50 investment, but obviously I don't.

I find this infurating. It's either a copyright issue or it isn't. Either I'm holding an $18 lump of plastic, or I'm holding an $.05 key to content I have licensed. They can't have it both ways.

I can't believe that these industries are legally allowed to get away with customer gouging.

Re:DRM = Customer screwing..

[NanoGator]

"You could have found out if the game was protected before you bought it, and then decided if it was a wise investment at the time. "

So you expect somebody to know ahead of time if they're going to break their disc? Your hair isn't pointy, is it?

I can't speak for the dude that started this thread, but I've got a huge collection of CD's/DVD's and never damaged them. I can totally understand his situation where he accidentally broke one of them. Shit happens. Replacement media is cheap, and the game producer forcefully prevented him from making a backup. If they're going to take away your fair use right to make legitimate backups, then the least they can do is guarantee that you can cheaply replace your media if it goes bad. Charging half the cost of the game + S&H is ridiculous.

As for your comments about the game promoting theft, pull your head out of your ass. The goal of the game is to vent and have a little fun, it's not to train people to steal cars. Don't believe me? Play the game then try to steal a car. You'll be surprised to find out that you don't know how to start it. You're making more of the game than it really is. Next you're going to tell me that Mario Sunshine promotes cleaning up of graffiti.

Re:DRM = Customer screwing..

[Josuah]

How about going back to the store and asking for a replacement? It depends on where you got it, but when I purchased some GameCube games from Electronics Boutique, they said if a game cracks or breaks or whatever I can get a replacement from them for free. (Hardware is different, you can buy a 1 or 2 year warranty, which I did.)

Another option is to get a pirated/cracked copy. I think this is one of those "gray" areas where you might feel it's morally okay to do this.

Re:DRM = Customer screwing..

[haggar]

Hey, I used Daemon Tools with a couple of images of game CDs, but my problem was that the music tracks woulnd't play. Sure, these tracks were ripped, but the games just wouldn't play them.

Re:DRM = Customer screwing..

[Anonvmous Coward]

"How about going back to the store and asking for a replacement? It depends on where you got it, but when I purchased some GameCube games from Electronics Boutique, they said if a game cracks or breaks or whatever I can get a replacement from them for free."

Huh. I did not know that. Even if it's my own fault it broke?

"Another option is to get a pirated/cracked copy. I think this is one of those "gray" areas where you might feel it's morally okay to do this."

That's what I'm probably going to do. (Or find a used copy...)

The way I see it, if they're going to lock up their product with a lock and key, and then make it a federal offense to break the lock, then they should at least make replacement media dirt cheap if I have the original media to return. I feel like the *AA and to a lesser extent the Game Industry are being given power to extort the consumers. I don't know if I'm being particularly rational or not, I'm not very happy about this. I just want to play my game. I've already put $50 into it.

Re:Also post them to the complete list of corrupt

[G-funk]

It doesn't matter a whit what looks wrong to you, it's "CDs". "CD's, CEO's, UFO's" are all 100% wrong. There's no case to be made, no arguments to have, it's just plain old incorrect.

Re:Also post them to the complete list of corrupt

[jez9999]

Although I agree with you on the usage of apostrophes with regards to the abbreviations, I wouldn't say that your its/it's example is a good one. "it's" doesnt 'trump' "its" in usage, it has a completely different meaning.

Re:uhhh, wait a minute...

[m1a1]

I think this is wrong. First of all, most of the people in that whole set either worked on salary (the engineer, the producer, probably the session player) and they have already been compensated by the record company for that, regardless of the album's sales. Then there is the album cover-art designer. I don't mind them getting a cut of my cash assuming I actually get my copy of the cover art, but if you are fine with a burned cd then you don't have the cover art anyways, so let the starving artist starve.

Re:Also post them to the complete list of corrupt

[slipgun]

Ah. A member of the 'because I say so' school of grammatical thought. I can respect that.

Presumably you said that to your english teacher when he told you to put a capital letter after a full stop.

There are no two ways about it, "CD's" means "of the CD" or "belonging to the CD". "CDs" is the plural of "CD".

Re:Also post them to the complete list of corrupt

[jez9999]

Yes, but I thought you were citing that as an example of how the 'missing letters' usage of the apostrophe was more common than the 'possesive' meaning. I don't think that's particularly true with its and it's.

Re:Making my life tougher

[m1a1]

You know, you can always filename and ID tags after you rip with Cd-n-Go.

Re:Crappy English

[leonbrooks]

The word is "gyped" not "jipped".

Actually, it's gypped, pronounced `jipped'; without the second `p' the `i' would be a long sound, so it would say `jaiypped'. The dictionary doesn't mention the Gypsies, but they are actually a race, called Romnies. This didn't stop them from `adopting' a lot of non-Romny fellow-travellers, and with a relatively small population this would actually be necessary to prevent problems with inbreeding.

While we're at it, `buy' == purchase, `by' == via, with or past, and (not in these posts, but it is common) `lose' == not win, `loose' == rattling around, not fastened down.

Re:I wonder... (time bomb)

[TheGratefulNet]

consider this. someone has an older analog style (not cdrom based) reader. their player works just fine on some protected cd - TODAY.

then tomorrow their cd player breaks and they buy a new one. all of a sudden, that new player (and all other new players) refuse to play a disk that SEEMED ok before.

I find this very unnerving. if you noticed it didn't play immediately (or in 30 days) you could return it. but suppose you had it for years and then the new player didn't play it? what do you do then?

this whole thing sucks.

Re:uhhh, wait a minute...

[jez9999]

draw the talent away from the RIAA music nazis and empower the independant labels

I've seen this comment so often, and one thing strikes me. What were the 'big' record labels before they formed organisations such as the RIAA? They were independent. If we support independent labels and even if the talent DOES move to them, there's a very good chance that they will merely form the next RIAA, and the whole damn process starts again, with them using newer technology and us cracking it all over again...

Use the preview, Luke!

[leonbrooks]

<-- it can be done -->

Use &lt; and &gt;

I got one ....

[W2k]

I got Robyn's latest album, "Don't Stop The Music". Great disc. BMG records have their own little copy protection mechanism it seems, the disc plays fine on ordinary CD players, but upon putting it into my CD-ROM, it autoruns and automatically installs a player which apparently uses Windows Media technology to play the (compressed) tracks from a data track on the CD. I was later able to uninstall this player, it left an uninstaller (UNWISE.EXE) and an install log in my C:\.

Winamp and Windows Media Player both lock up trying to play the CD as an ordinary audio CD. When I opened exact Exact Audio Copy, it couldn't make out the tracks on the CD. When I put the disc into my CD burner (HP CD-Writer 9310i Plus) the tracks were properly recognized, though marked "Copy Protected", and I could play the CD as a normal audio CD from within EAC (WA and WMP still hung). This allowed me to rip the disc to MP3 by playing it in EAC, while simultaneously recording in SoundForge. So the ripping was a bit more troublesome than usual, but no sweat. The quality of the rip was excellent, despite the slightly weird ripping method.

Why my gifts are fine

[autechre]

I bought "It Isn't The Fall" by The Lesser Birds of Paradise (Loose Thread Recordings) for my mother, and "High Society" by Enon (Touch and Go) for my brother.

I know I sound like a broken record (ha ha ha), but these smaller labels actually want people to listen to their music. They have enough trouble promoting the stuff; they're certainly not going to put up any obstacles, or do things that would tick off the few customers/loyal radio stations they have.

"But I don't know how to find that stuff / indie music sucks!"

No, it doesn't suck. "High Society" certainly beats the hell out of Queens of the Stone Age. The new Apples In Stereo is great too.

As for finding the music, the College Music Journal (cmj.com) is a great starting point. I'd point you to WMBC's own music database, which is (barely) searchable, but it's still a little shaky; I'm hoping to straighten out the code this winter and release it publically (it also does the tracking the RIAA requires for Internet broadcasting).

[On a nice note, I also got "Big Swing Face" by Bruce Hornsby (RCA) for my father, and it wasn't crippled either.]

Re:Why my gifts are fine

[mr_burns]

Right On! Enon Rules.

Other ways to keep track of independent music:

Some other independent streams:
somafm.com (indie pop rocks is a favorite)
spacelab.org (for all your pop and twee needs)

I recommend keeping a list (textfile) of cd's you want to buy in your taskbar/dock. I listen to net radio and if I like a song, I add the info to the list and research the list ever week or so. The list is one click away in the top level of the GUI, so it's really efficient. I gave the list to my family before christmas this year and I was not disappointed.

Another way is to join independent music email lists. There are plenty out there. I belong to several. People post reviews of stuff they discovered or ask for recommendations and get great answers. You can also find out about all kinds of underground shows. You can get 3 or 4 bands in a night for less than the cost of a matinee. And they often sell their CD's there for just over half what the majors sell stuff for in the stores.

I stopped listening to radio after the telecommunications act screwed it all up. But after joining the right email lists and tuning in to independent net radio I've found that the quality and quantity of music in my life has increased tremendously.

There is life outside the scope of the major labels and it is a good life.

Re:hmm DRM goofs

[mrkurt]

DRM == Digital Reach for your Money You == Troll

I don't believe this

[CaptainSuperBoy]

Yeah, I'm going to have to call shenanigans on this. I have never heard of pressed CD's with a lower track width causing a higher rate of errors. And that's all it would be if this happened, a higher error rate causing the CD player to interpolate more samples. These errors would show up on a good ripping program such as EAC, reading in secure mode. It doesn't seem likely that the pressing process could produce a lower quality CD given a bunch of bytes.. it's not like the pressing machine secretly switches bits on and off. So maybe a longer CD has a higher chance of unreadable frames, although I've never heard of this. But to say that the pressing process creates a CD where the bytes of data on the CD do not equal the bytes on the master, is ridiculous.

Lucius, if it's true you're in recording you're in a unique position to prove/disprove this theory. Just take the master of a track, at 44/16/stereo. Then get a pristine, pressed CD containing that track. Rip it with a good program and a good CD drive, then do a comparison on the files. Except for the very beginning and end of the tracks, they should be identical. Audiophiles will tell you ridiculous things, it doesn't surprise me that someone out there thinks a CD is 'more than just bytes.' I mean, you'll meet people who say that the quality of your DIGITAL audio cable matters - as if a cheap 3 ft piece of fiber will somehow lose bytes, but an expensive 3 ft piece of fiber will get all those bytes there intact. These are the same jokers who buy the CDs that are pressed with gold.

Re:I don't believe this

[zhensel]

Despite playing the first tracks much more than the later tracks on most of my CDs (I'm a habitual cd swapping junkie), the latter tracks on my CDs tend to fail before the earlier ones when the things starts to get beat up. I would assume that an 80 minute disc burnt to the rim of the platter would fare worse than a rip-off weezer album.

I don't know why this is, exactly, but there is definitely a corrolation between length and failure, at least in my experience. Wow, that has some interesting sexual meaning as well!

Re:I don't believe this

[atrus]

I mean, you'll meet people who say that the quality of your DIGITAL audio cable matters - as if a cheap 3 ft piece of fiber will somehow lose bytes, but an expensive 3 ft piece of fiber will get all those bytes there intact.

For that matter, why do we bother using Cat 5 cable, since we all know barb wire works just as well... I mean, it conducts electricity, right? Also realize that audio has no checksum system, it cannot retransmit audio frames like ethernet can. Jitter is a real problem on digital audio cables (and is usualy higher in optical systems, due to do added conversion process).

Re:I don't believe this

[atrus]

And it carries signals using light (lets say amplitude). This can take time to change state from a 1 to a 0 and vice versa, making it analog as well. In fact, anything digital is simply strictly interpreted analog signals.

Re:I don't believe this

[topham]

ding. wrong, it IS digital, but at the frwuqnecies used for Ethernet, and, at the LENGTHS used for ethernet there are issues. (Never mind that high frequency binary on a wire starts to act more analog than digital in some ways...)

Typical cable for a stereo system (DVD to stereo, etc) is what, 6ft? You could probably point the 2 systems at each other and use the fiber port without a fiber cable and get a good response....

6ft is nothing, and unless the singal is seriously distorted there will be no data loss or corruption. As for jitter... unless your amplifier has no internal processor doing anything to the sound the jitter is irrelevent as the signal is re-encoded before becoming analog anyway. (my system, admittedly low end has an internal DSP to add various effects. Nothing is immediatly turned to analog from digital, it all goes through a processor first. hence, jitter in isn't the same as the jitter out. (Assuming the internal clock -is- skewed and it results in jitter before the singal is converted to analog the only jitter introduced is from the internal clock, there is no cummulative effect caused by the incoming signal and the outgoing.

Re:I don't believe this

[topham]

jitter != delay.

Jitter is the shift in frequencies caused by the difference in timing between multiple samples not being consistant, or (this is a stretch, needs a diff. name) the frequency being accurate to itself, but different than intended. (44.5 instead of 44.1, etc.)

While coax or fiber may make a difference on some systems as the the EXACT delay introduced into the signal before being converted to analog, and could, in a complex setup with multple systems handling the signal (in parallel, not sequential) cause unintended distortions. (2 independant amps introducing different delays driving front, and rear speakers in, say, a THEATER....)

There is no real reason to believe jitter will be introduced differently by the two in even a half decent system. (Any system which would convert the sample as a whole, and not per bit would NOT be effected.)

Re:I don't believe this

[autopr0n]

For that matter, why do we bother using Cat 5 cable, since we all know barb wire works just as well... I mean, it conducts electricity, right?

Yes, but you would scrach your hands up something awful wiring your network :P.

Actualy, Cisco or lucent or someone actualy did some research and was able to transmit ethernet over barbed wire, fences, and other not-so-pure conductors.

In general, though the reason we need to use 'pure' wires like cat-5 is because you're transfering something at a very high rate. There is a huge diffrence between 1ghz and 44khz as far as distortion and stuff.

Also, when you're talking about fiber, it's totaly diffrent. The cheap $3 toslink optical cables would probably have no trouble transfering even 10ghz ethernet signals.

DRM Means Nothing.

[E-Rock-23]

What the suits don't realize is that if a person can hear something, they can rip it. The only way they can turely stop piracy is to totally silence music, period. And that just won't happen. If someone wants to circumvent copy protection, they will. It doesn't take that much effort. DRM is a lost cause when it comes to music.

There's nothing to stop someone from hearing a song on the radio and copying it onto a tape or in digital form short of shutting down radio. There's nothing they can do about someone plugging their TV into their computer and copying stuff from DMX or a similar service. Short of sending a "copyright babysitter" into each and every home to monitor every aspect of listening, they can't stop it.

They can install all sorts of DRM equipment into new computers and such, but that still doesn't put a stopgap into older equipment. Technology has given us control of how we get our media intake. And that scares the piss out of the suits. And if they try to curb technology, we'll only go a step backward to fix that problem.

To the RIAA/MPAA: Give it up. You're fighting a hopeless battle. Try lowering the price of a CD and maybe we'll stop pirating. We all know how much it takes to make a CD, there's no pulling the wool over our eyes anymore. Do yourselves a favor and treat your customers the way you should.

Re:DRM Means Nothing.

[orthogonal]

The only way they can turely stop piracy is to totally silence music

Yeah, I can never get that John Cage stuff to convert to MP3. The compression numbers just don't make sense.

I mean, what could Compression Percentage: NaN mean???

Re:DRM Means Nothing.

[CommieOverlord]

I take it you fail to understand Cage's music. 4'33 is about anything other than silence.

Try older CDs that are lying around

[Ra5pu7in]

If you really aren't sure if the problem is the CD or the player, try playing older CDs that you have lying around. Sony's players seem to be having the most trouble from the reading I've been doing.

Re:Also post them to the complete list of corrupt

[Nightpaw]

I'll tell you what; if it means that I never see "a bunch of box's" or "2 pizza's" again, then let's just say you can never use an apostrophe to pluralize and "CD's" is plain wrong.

sue

[zogger]

--sue. Sue them, and here's how to do it. Take the LOCAL store manager to court, charge "fraud". Simple fraud is a crime. It's *illegal* to sell something that ain't that something. They offer to sell you a "cd" when it's not-it LOOKS like a cd but it isn't. It's fraud. Buncoism, it's against the law, just so widely done now it appears "lawful". You stick a crippled disk in front of 12 people on a jury and ask them what it is they'll say it's a cd, and cd's should play in cd players PERIOD. It's that simple a concept. Don't try changing the big guys all by yourself it ain't happening, don't try suing sony or walmart, take whomever took YOUR money and sold you something that wasn't as advertised to local small claims court or other appropriate venue for your situation and locality. Use this technique as a force multiplier. Don't even let them skate with a refund or a return, KEEP the crippled disk, that's your evidence of fraud, get some people who are "just following orders" to realise there ARE consequences for their actions. This is a basic problem our society has, "just following orders", it's never anyone's fault, nothing "bad" ever has any named human being attached to it just some vague "corporation" that's a bear to deal with, which is nuts, this goes for politics to economics, people just TAKE IT all the time when you don't have to. Don't let them plead ignorance or pass the buck or just rip off the next guy and the next guy and the next guy. If "anyone you" think this is an important enough issue, prove it! Once you get some judgements against these people, it will force THEM to bump it up, because THEY will in turn sue their bosses for being ordered to perpetuate and expand this scam congame. Work exactly at the level the crime occurred, you and your wallet and someone taking your money at a your local store.

If you went into the store to buy shampoo and dumped it on your head and it was shoe polish, would you take it or sue the ^&^*(tards? If they kept selling shoe polish labeled as shampoo? Over and over and over again? If you went into the store and bought a can of corn and opened it up and it had rat parts in it instead of corn, would you sue, or just take YOUR time and go back and get a 'real' can of corn, knowing that half the cans on the shelf labeled corn that looked like cans of corn were in reality canned rat?

The deal is these stores, and their corporate/cartel/monopolist bosses, want cowed sheepish brainwashed consumers, they want you to only grumble, maybe a few people exchange the defective products, they don't want to make the hard decisions that follow ethics, they want to skate the cheapest way they can. Suing some humongous corporation is HARD, suing a place local and a named individual for an exact specific crime is a lot easier and cheaper, and if thousands of people did it this crap would stop tomorrow.

Sam with spammers, in the states where spam is now illegal-WHY aren't there thousands of lawsuits? I'll tell ya why, it's because 99% of people are sheep, easily cowed, don't want to "rock the boat", scared, think their single efforts won't matter, just content to bitch about things but nothing else-whatever, all excuses really for not taking personal indignation and getting shafted right back to the shafter and getting your day in court. If your cause is righteous, you at least have a chance, never even trying means you'll keep getting shafted, which just further emboldens the badguys to keep ripping people off and pulling more and more scams.

If it was me with this particular issue, I'd tell that store manager (get their full name and job title) ONE TIME to stop selling crippled "counterfeit cd look-a-likes" that aren't "cds", that unless they are removed or labeled and displayed and stocked completely separately from REAL cd's PROMINENTLY six ways to sunday with BIG SIGNS that they AREN'T cd's and WON'T play in most normal cd players that you intend to sue HIM in local court personally,that you will file an official police report, then follow through if they keep ripping people off. Getting ripped off the first time is his fault, twice is "your" fault because "anyone you" puts up with it, generally and non specifically speaking.

Re:sue

[Foogle]

You seem to feel pretty strongly about this issue. Why don't you sue someone?

Re:sue

[zogger]

--I have, twice, both times against government people seriously abusing their positions, won both times. And you? What have you done?

To me, drm and music cd's are a grade c low interest, I am way more concerned with what I feel are much more important issues, nothing big, just the growing power of this junta that's seized control of the US and is hell bent on inmposing a two class master/serf society based on fear, surveillance, command and control. I "work" on those issues more. I just like commenting "in general" and offerring advice that anyone by themselves *can* make a difference IF they actually follow through and try, IF they think they've been screwed and have some evidence. Anything from organizing a boycott, to a lawsuit to whatever, what DON'T work is just complaining about it. I've looked at this "cd that ain't a cd" issue in the stores, it's obvious as all get out, they are clearly mixed in with "normal" cds and are being sold "the same as".Miniscule fine print in jargon that is meaningless to most people, they are sold and displayed as 'cds" and they aren't. It's a pure scam. It certainly looks like consumer fraud and buncoism to me. So I wrote *IF* this was a concern of mine and I had become a victim, I would calmly go and sue them-whomever was in charge of receiving my money for the counterfeit- in local court. Not enough people do that, they fail to follow through on various things, they just take it where the sun don't shine over and over again. I don't know WHY but I can make some guesses at it, which I outlined above.

This is a commentary forum, I commented,I've seen this same topic of bogus counterfeit non-cd look a likes come up here it seems a hundred times already, yet to hear of anyone actually using "the law" right back at them. Now sometimes-a lot of times-lawsuits are trivial and unwarranted, other times they are necessary and it's always a judgement call. Basic history and research shows that large concerns will continually try to skate the law or alter reality in their favor, BUT, there's differing ways to 'fight back", I encourage those actions and mindset, for people to stop being professiobnal "victims". So ya, it sounds strong, and I'm emotional about it, so what? Better than just hoping someone else does it. Myself, I don't buy cd's except for very occassional older used ones, sometimes entire years go by I purchase zero, I don't download mp3 music whatsoever,I own none of that, zero, and don't own any "illegal" software, but say if I DID purchase pre recorded new retail music and it was a major enjoyment and interest of mine I certainly might sue over these crippled disks. Just encouraging the others here who feel strongly about it-or any other *thing* they feel strongly about- to take the next logical step, and take the moral and legal high ground as well.

Re:sue

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

and what? Chew chewlie's gum instead?

Re:sue

[knodi]

to sunday with BIG SIGNS that they AREN'T cd's and WON'T play in most normal cd players that you intend to sue HIM in local court personally,that you will file an official

If they didn't play in most CD players, then nobody would sell them period. The whole point of the tech is they play in MOST cd players and not in MOST computers. If you went to court, you might win, but you might get a judge who said "This CD plays in 99% of players. You are obviously suing a merchant to make a point for your political agenda. Frivolous lawsuit, case dismissed."

Santana's Shaman

[rossz]

Under Windoze, this CD launches a program that wants to connect to somewhere via the internet. No f*ing way. I just want to play the CD on my computer because the stereo is in the other room and is not convenient.

I haven't tried under Linux because I broke the sound driver and haven't gotten around to fixing it, yet.

Re:Santana's Shaman

[Pig Hogger]

Under Windoze, this CD launches a program that wants to connect to somewhere via the internet.

IN SOVIET RUSSIA, CDs LISTEN TO YOU.

Probable explanation

[CaptainSuperBoy]

This is probably because the later tracks are closer to the edge of the CD. Normal wear and tear from handling the CD may beat up the tracks closer to the outside. I don't take any original CDs in my car, it's too easy for them to get beaten up.

Re:uhhh, wait a minute...

[Rogerborg]

• Joe Studio Drummer could care less

He could not care less, or he couldn't care less, not he could care less. It's not a difficult concept.

This was actually on national UK BBC TV

[Rogerborg]

Yes, right up there. "Many CD's bought this Christmas will come with little stickers that say they contain copy protection technology designed to defeat music pirates". And so on. Evil music pirates, starving artists, copy protection rather than rights removal. No hint that it's snake oil, no suggestion that all it does it piss people off and actively drive them to P2P. A rather ambiguous assertion at the end that "But some people who have got used to getting music for free might not buy it at all." What the hell that's meant to signify, I don't know, other than that the BBC employs way too many inbred RADA rejects in their features department.

Re:ITS TIME FOR A LAWSUIT!!!

[newt]

Why bother? Just download MP3's instead of buying copy-protected CD's, follow the path of least resistance.

(do you think Columbia will lose more money by fighting lawsuits or by watching their customers irrevocably turn to P2P?)

You got your formats wrong.

[Fross]

i dont know what crack they smoke where you work, but...

Track widths do not vary with CDs so you can stuff more on. Hence there is no such "narrow track width" problem with CD. however, this *does* apply to vinyl, and is one of the main culprits of poor vinyl quality over the last 15 years.
I've not heard of any "thin allyplate" problems with CDs, however using thin, low quality material has been a problem for sound quality for vinyl. some believe this was intentional on the labels' part to get people to switch formats.

also, having worked in the music business myself, i'm happy to say that i've never encountered an instance where the producers don't get a test pressing.

methinks your record exec may not be the only cokehead. ;)

fross

Re:Also post them to the complete list of corrupt

[slipgun]

Very good. I imagine that you didn't get C's in school, but rather As

Depends which subject you're talking about :-)

Some things are a matter of style.

Yes, some things are, and I really can't be bothered to argue about it - we'll (or well if you prefer) have to agree to disagree. What is the Chicago Manual of Style, by the way?

I got one

[smartin]

It has CD Extra on it and includes a video which would make it seem PC friendly. I put it in my PC under windoze and the machine locked up. Ejected it and put it in my cd burner and it was able to start CD Extra and i could play the video. Could not listen to the CD however even by trying to play it under the CD Extra program. Tried it on the Mac and it works fine. I can play it and rip it under iTunes. Tried it on the same PC under linux and was able to play it fine. Some thing is definitely going on with the disk but not working under windoze is the norm as far as i'm concerned.

Wanna end DRM?

[1g$man]

The way to end DRM is simple: find someone more powerful than the RIAA.

And the only one more powerful than the RIAA in this country... is Wal-Mart.

Get a few thousand geeks to buy copy protected CDs, and then demand a return at the same time because they are defective. If you get Wal-Mart annoyed enough, they'll throw their weight around and make changes.

Ever wonder why many DVDs at Wal-Mart are fullscreen instead of widescreen? Because enough rednecks returned their DVDs and whined "'cos they didn't fill up mah dam screen!"

Re:I can store data error-free on an 80-minute CD

[CaptainSuperBoy]

Actually, you can't. The data has more error correction information, so you are able to store less. A 650MB data CD will actually store over 700MB of audio.

ASAIG

[famazza]

• As Simple As It Gets.

Does these CDs have the CDDA logo on it? If it does Sony/Columbia must find a way to make it play in your ye old CD player.

If it doesn't, you should have paid attention and bought only CDs compatible to your equipment.

In both cases I think that you should sue them! Just fight within the same rules!

Re: Making my life tougher

[Black Parrot]

> when my trust Cd-n-Go software couldn't access freedb

Freedb was having lots of problems yesterday, presumably due to a Christmas-induced DDoS attack.

Re:Also post them to the complete list of corrupt

[Henry V .009]

Exactly. And the Chicago Manual of Style says that Ph.D.'s is correct. (It does agree with you, however, on abbreviations without punctuation.) Other manuals of style make an exception for abbreviations ending with the letter 's'. Still others agree with me.

Everything2 has the best comments on the matter that I've come across:

One thing that (excuse me) has been covered is the use of the apostrophe to indicate plural amounts of letters and numbers.

"Bs" or "B's."
"1980s" or "1980's"

Unfortunatly, this matter in a flux, and is really a question of style based on appearance and personal preference. There are conflicting reports on proper usage in this matter from several reliable sources. There is one rule that seems to be constant, however. If the letter (or group of letters) is an S or ends in S, it is proper to use the apostrophe to pluralize it, such as: "There are five S's in that word" and not "There are five Ss in that word".

It is also generally considered improper to use an apostrophe to pluralize abbreviations such as CD. This, however, also is conflicted.

The bottom line? Do it however you want to (or whichever way your teacher wants for assignments).

Re:uhhh, wait a minute...

[FearUncertaintyDoubt]

First, where the hell are you going to send a check? Their fanclub? Do you know Timberlake's address? How about Snoop Dogg's address? How about Creed's address? Tim MCGraw? Whoever it is you listen to, you probably don't have any idea how to actually get money to them, unless they are local to you. And that's an altogether different story.

A fair question. Answer: http://www.fairtunes.com/

Aside from the actual music, there are the studio people.
Bands pay for their studio time to produce the album. And they pay a lot for it. The "studio people" got their money already.

The cover art came from somewhere, and that person should be compensated.
If I download the MP3 for a song, why exactly should I pay for cover art?

Re:Odd experience with a CD

[m1a1]

You should try clonecd by elaborate bytes. I don't remember how much it costs, but it is pretty affordable, and you can try it for free. I have never had a cd that it couldn't copy, and it has a built in virtual drive that you can use to mount images. Pretty slick all in all, and the most reliable program for getting exact copies that I know of.

CDs not on my list anymore

[inkswamp]

My wife and I used to buy each other lots of CDs for the holidays, but that has since changed. She bought me one this year (Audioslave) and thankfully it works fine. Given all the publicity these DRM-crippled pseudo-CDs have received, we've decided it's best to avoid that particular gift. We listen to a lot of music on our computer, and who wants to unwrap a gift to discover that it can't be ripped to your player of choice? "Merry Christmas, dear... and yes, I have the receipt so we can take this back." Lame. The RIAA's paranoia and lack of insight are rapidly putting itself out of business.

Re:Also post them to the complete list of corrupt

[Reality Master 101]

Everything2 has the best comments on the matter that I've come across:

Someone quoting Everything2 as authoritative is the best evidence of the apocalypse that I've come across.

Re:Also post them to the complete list of corrupt

[Reality Master 101]

That's a possessive, not a plural (the latter is the subject at hand).

Click here to sue

[Animats]

Click here to sue. Milberg Weiss, the well-known class-action law firm, is sueing the record companies over defective CDs. They sue big companies all the time and win, which makes them tons of money. Mostly they do shareholder lawsuits; they're the lead plaintiff in Enron litigation. But they do other class action work as well.

Here's how they put it in their court filing.

• Defendants conspired and agreed among themselves to sell defective audio discs which were rendered unreproducible or unstable for use in many personal computers, Macintosh computers, compact disc players, digital video disc players, car stereos and digital video game consoles. Defendants have affirmatively concealed the fact that their defective audio discs interfere with their customers' legal right to play or transfer music to other playback mediums. Additionally, Defendants have collectively misrepresented these defective audio discs as being standard Compact Discs (``CDs''), which they are not. Defendants undertook the acts alleged herein pursuant to, and in furtherance of, this conspiracy and agreement. Defendants manufactured, disseminated, advertised or sold these defective audio discs in such a way as to collectively conceal from plaintiffs, Class members and the general public the fact that these defective audio discs were of inferior quality and deprived customers of their legal right to backup and transfer their own music to other playback mediums. Such concealment resulted in plaintiffs, Class members and the general public paying more for these defective audio discs in expectation that, inter alia, the music would be playable on all playback devices and would be of equal quality to CDs, which they are not.

That's clear enough.

They ask that if you've found a defective CD, report it to them by clicking here.

Re:Click here to sue

[haggar]

Wow, great news! In all sincerity, I was expecting some ambitious law firm to tackle the issue, thank you for finally showing me that it's actually happening. I hope these Milberg Weiss guys are as "bad" as their fame suggests.

Incidently, does possessing one of those silver-colored discs (avoiding here to call them CDs) entitle you for a portion of the possible punitive charges?

Um

[CaptainSuperBoy]

Well, your example sucks. If you were running ethernet in 3 foot lengths it really wouldn't matter what you used for a cable. Barb wire would work fine actually, if you had 2 pairs.

So back to what I'm saying, audiophiles love patting themselves on the back about this shit, and you've bought it hook line and sinker. It's a piece of plastic, a damn tube that blinks bits. Although I'm not convinced, I'll give you the jitter - who knows, maybe a golden ears listener can detect it. I can't, and you probably can't either. Fine, let's talk about coax then. You'll hear audiophiles whinging about true 75 ohm cables, how RCA connectors are bad - we're talking about a two wire digital connector. Have these people heard that a $5 USB cable has more bandwidth than their precious cables? And yes, they'll actually tell you that coax has jitter too. Am I supposed to believe that the sub-nanosecond time it takes for that signal to reach my decoder, actually degrades the audio? Come on. Most audiophile stuff is pure snake oil, bought into by gullible saps who want to pretend they can 'hear the difference.'

Re:Um

[atrus]

It is a damn tube which carries light. You are right. When we are talking about a $5 USB cable, are we comparing digital bandwidth? Digital audio signals are usualy PCM encoded or encoded using something like DD (AC3), DTS, etc. This has a limited fixed bandwidth, and is not very demanding in its own right. As long as the decoder can find the clock and sync on it, it has a pretty good chance of finding the signal intact. Poor quality cable CAN make a difference, but its not the limiting factor in most audio installations. But once you have a pure Rotel/McIntosh setup going to your 6 B&W 801s (DTS EX), you're running out of things to replace (which confirms your views). It is not the first thing I would replace (BTW, a small piece of coax with RCA jacks, or even a suitably thick RCA cable will work just fine as a digital coax connection).

The big cable quality issue comes when you go for analog audio. I'm not saying a pure silver $20/foot cable is going to sound better than a silver coated $7/foot cable for line level audio, but it WILL sound better than a 10 ft copper wire about the thickness of mechcanical pencil lead (your average RCA cable). There will be a difference between 22 gauge speaker wire (the thin stuff) and 12 gauge speaker wire (reasonably price at home depot). There is a difference between a low end Kenwood receiver (ick) and a high end Denon receiver (or anything priced higher). And lets not even try to compare low end speakers (Bose, Sony, etc) with high end speakers (B&W, Martin Logan, Paradigm, etc). You do get what you pay for... But there is a nice "value" level, where the next price level doesn't seem worth it.

Re:Um

[Dirtside]

Your post reminds me of a great quote I saw on /. a while ago: "You listen with your ears, not your ass, so quit being so anal."

Re:Um

[salesgeek]

LOL! People can take the fun out of anything by simply going overboard on the technology. Doesn't matter if it's roller-coasters, movies, music or sex. I sold stereo gear when I was in college and used to get a huge kick out of audiophiles who would come in and while I was working with another customer and drop a nerd factoid and my customer and I. Usually it would be about RCA connectors or cables or my personal favorite, the "accuacy of a loudspeaker." I'd just wait for the nerd attack to end, thank Mr. Audiophile for enhancing my knowledge and say to my customer, "What's important is how it sounds to you. All the specs in the world can't replace your ears. If it doesn't sound good to you, just don't buy it." They bought more than they didn't.

$G

Re:Um

[Theaetetus]

I won't pretend that I do know it all (I started out at the bottom and got laughed at when I said I needed a 100 ft. RCA cable for a dance party, at the local sound shop), but I can tell you this: Pros don't use RCA cables. Period. Absolutely no exceptions, unless it's going through a transformer (and then it had better damn well be the only way to get the audio).

If you mean that pros avoid unbalanced analog like the plague, yes, we do. However, we do use RCA cables for S/PDIF (though, you're right, we prefer AES/EBU, which is carried over XLRs).

Come back to me when you use balanced XLR, or at least balanced 1/4". Then we'll talk audio quality. And we'll also talk about how the only reason you want higher gauge cable is so that the sound engineer doesn't destroy your cables when he rolls the chair over them. And, best of all, when you start to use XLR cables, you won't care about shielding, actually, you will care -- you'll be reqesting that there is none.

Not so... Shielding is still very important in balanced audio. Balancing your audio takes care of electromagnetic interference (RF getting into your cables). Shielding takes care of electrostatic interference (rubbing your feet on the carpet, then touching the cable, in addition to other types of surges and spikes).

>And lets not even try to compare low end speakers (Bose, Sony, etc) with high end speakers (B&W, Martin Logan, Paradigm, etc).

Incidentally, if we want to talk high-end, forget those... Try B&K, Sausalito Audio Works, Genelec, etc. Three-way powered studio monitors with active crossovers. Paradigm, B&W, Martin Logan are high-end... for consumers. Very different from the pro stuff.

That's the difference. The fact is the Sony amp will sound as good as the Denon when 10 Watts are drawn out of each. It's just that when 500 Watts are being drawn from both the Denon will still sound good, whereas the Sony Xplods into a burst of flames and smoke.

Well, one other side part - noise floor. The Denon will have a lower noise floor at 10 W than the $10 Sony will. Also, probably better filters internally, better caps, etc. But those are minor differences.

And incidentally, I am a professional - more than half my life in the industry, currently in broadcast engineering/repair&maintenance, previously in recording/mastering, and before that in live sound.

In spite of what "audiophiles" will say, there has not been an accurate-enough meter invented that can measure the difference between a 20 dollar speaker cable and a $10,000 speaker cable.

-T

Re:Um

[Theaetetus]

As far as ESD goes, make your guys wear static wrist bands! ;-) It's like being on a telephone without actually using one! Besides, why is a home user putten der fingerpoken in the equipment when it's in use?

No, I'm talking about during regular use - touching the outside of an (insulated) audio cable that's unshielded will cause an audible pop if you're charged. Even touching the outside of some equipment - particularly if the case of the equipment is metal (and thus tied to the same ground inside), it can create a nice audible pop if things aren't properly grounded and shielded.

-T

The Donnas - Spend the Night

[swb]

I've heard a several people complain about this CD being uncopyable, but my copy ripped just fine. My copy has a bonus Quicktime video of a song that escapes me from "The Donnas Turn 21" which they were nice enough to include with a high quality stereo soundtrack that I ripped as well.

Given what I've read about copy protection techniques generally resulting in a CD that's totally unusable on computers, it seems odd to me that they would release a "normal" CD with bonus material (there's also a screen saver and some other Flash BS) that *requires* a computer as well as a broken, DRM'd version. My version isn't any special edition or anything (that I can see).

But then I also think there's probably a lot of discs getting labled as DRM'd that somebody was too clueless to RIP or was just a bad pressing as another poster mentioned.

On my last trip through bestbuy I was suprised at the quantity and cheapness of DVD players and the paucity of plain CD players. I wonder how long it will be before some material is released as an audio-only DVD -- maybe some still material or something for video -- but only playable as a DVD on a DVD player.

Yes, I know it's not *good* DRM, but better than what they have now. And that way they won't get dinged for releasing a "broken" CD, since its not a CD at all...

Re:Bad mastering?

[Lumpy]

well here's the thing... a friend of mine has a system that is completely phenom in every way.. he has a pair of home made folded horns that make anything out there you can buy sound like crap (no they don't have the typical folded horn resonance sound they each have about 350 pounds of dry sand in and around each of them. in the outer shell.... BTW he works as an acoustical engineer in a very high end speaker manufacturer R&D labs... he wont let me tell who... but they used to be based in Battle creek michigan)

He has 4 discreet B&O amps 2 driving the high end (tweet and midrange) and 2 driving the low end (midbass/bass.. no subwoofer... he said that subwoofers are for pussies)

I cant remember the japanese brand name on the tube preamp and CD player he has... it's not Nackamitchi..

The Cd's I mentioned sound absolutely fantastic on his system... espically when you sit in the sweet spot. and when you put in a regular CD from today (we used the Crime of the century gold refrence CD I had and we purchased a current crime of the century CD from a local CD shop for this test.. The difference was unbelieveable.. the regular CD might as well be on AM radio... and when listening to other CD's from today (nickleback is HORRIBLE.. the cymbols and highs sound like they are a poorly compressed 96Kbps mp3!) The only album that sounded better than the rest was actually disc one of Smashing Pumpkins mellon Collie and the Infinate sadness box set. but returning to the gold refrence of Pink floyd's Dark side of the moon everything again sounded like complete and utter crap in comparasion.

anything hip-hop'ish we had to crank the lows way way down as it is horribly obvious that they artifically in post production and mastering crank up all the low end to sound better on crappy stereos..

My friend NEVER listens to anything but classical music.. and after out 2 hour listening session he said .... " Now do you understand why I don't listen to that crap? It's not the content but the horrible wrapper they put it in!"

I have been finding that it is impossible to find any good CD's anymore... SACD is in the same state that CD's were in 1986... they need to impress everyone to get them to buy into it... but I am betting that SACD's will become as crappy as today's CD's within 5 years of it becoming popular.

Note: he does have some "crappy" classical cd's.. he pointed out that every one that was crap came from the States and specifically a BMI studio.

something to think about...

Logical

[m1a1]

This seems like the most logical idea I have seen so far. The one and only problem I see with it is that in some towns the only place to buy a cd is to hit the old wal-mart, hastings, or other chain. Now hastings, you may be able to make that happen. Wal-Mart, well, if the corporation gets involved you probably won't get anywhere. But, if you got really lucky. Maybe they'd offer you one of those nice settlements big corporations are so fond of using to make legal woes disappear.

Interesting note about music 'pirates'

[Dirtside]

It's an interesting fact that music pirates don't really respect copyright, but they do respect registered trademarks. After all, what pirate would disrespect something marked with an ARRRR symbol?

Re:Also post them to the complete list of corrupt

[Dirtside]

Not to flame, but you're all idiots. :) The purpose of language is to communicate effectively; whichever method is easier to understand (using apostrophes to pluralize acronyms/abbreviations, or not, e.g. CDs vs. CD's) should be the one that's used. As language is entirely arbitrary (but, for the sake of simplicity, often systematic), there is no absolute right or wrong -- but if everyone expects "CDs" and you type "CD's", that may make things harder to read, so you should probably use "CDs". And vice-versa, of course.

Come on, guys. Anyone with enough education to argue about the finer points of disparate style manuals should understand this concept.

Can't say that I have

[Raul654]

Although I do have to figure out what to broadcast with my new webcam :)

I've been DRM'd

[TheScogg]

Damnit. Popped in my new John Cage album today. Low and behold...4 minutes and 33 seconds of pure silence.

While visions of DRM danced in their heads...

[rworne]

Since I have an XBR set, and usually am a total whore for Sony products, I was going over the manual for my new progressive scan DVD player: the Sony DVP-NS715P.

I was browsing the troubleshooting section and came across this gem:

"Copyright lock" appears and the screen turns blue when playing a DVD-RW disc.
Images taken from digital broadcasts, etc., may contain copy protection signals, such as complete copy protection signals, single copy signals, and restriction-free signals. When images that contain copy protection signals are played, a blue screen may appear instead of the images. It may take a while when looking for playable images.

I really don't know what mechanism they are employing here, I would suspect that it's looking for Macrovision signals and blocking playback of Macrovision-encoded video on consumer-recordable media.

My Sony Digital-8 recorder also has a Macrovision detector in it.

You'd think I'd learn by now...

from people with computers.

[autopr0n]

what, you don't think the copy protection actualy works do you?

A two second download will have you playing and burning the CD from your computer. But you can't download software to a high-end player, thus those copy-protected disks only stop people from playing the disks, not copying them.

You can also just plug an audio cable into a computer and record them.

Playing has nothing to do with it

[autopr0n]

It's not like a record where the needle physicaly touches the disk. A CD is only looked at, looking at the center wouldn't cause it to fail more then the outside.

The problems are probably being caused by your fingers and other objects comming in contact with the disk, and more likely to touch the outside, especialy if you're a swap-junky

can you read?

[autopr0n]

The CDs that didn't work were Sony, moron. Last I checked, Sony was a Japanese company.

Re:can you read?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"The CDs that didn't work were Sony, moron. Last I checked, Sony was a Japanese company."

It's the RIAA that thinks it needs to cripple CDs, numb nuts. Sony's one of the companies responding to it.

Hacks for purple sticks?

[autopr0n]

Do you have any more info on this? I have a memeory stick walkman that I wouldn't mind using cheaper media on.

Re:Hacks for purple sticks?

[Keith Russell]

I remembered another discussion about Memory Stick products. The secret is to use another Memory Stick reader.

well enough alone?

[autopr0n]

Well, if it plays in your PC but not your car, then there is a very good chance that your car sterio is just a peice of shit.

Do DVD players have RF out?

[yerricde]

This is why one doesn't usually connect their DVD player to the VCR, thence to the TV, but instead connects directly to the TV.

Most of the time I've seen things connected through the VCR, the VCR was being used as an RF modulator for a video game console or camcorder with no RF output connected to a television set with no A/V input. How does the owner of a television set without A/V inputs connect a DVD player to his television set? Do DVD players have coax out on RF channel 3/4?

Re:Do DVD players have RF out?

[TheCarp]

Oddly I dunno if it was macrovision but I ran into just this recently.

At home its PS/2 -> TV direct. Its my game machine and DVD player...its sweet.

I went over a friends house one night, and after she put her kid to bed we got out the playstation and threw in boondock saints.

Her VCR is an old one...a top loader even! and boy did it ever not work. GTA: Vice city...played fine. Put in the movie, and it was all fucked up.

SO next week I came over with my own VCR, worked fine. No problems at all.

-Steve

Re:Do DVD players have RF out?

[Enzondio]

Most of the time I've seen things connected through the VCR, the VCR was being used as an RF modulator for a video game console or camcorder with no RF output connected to a television set with no A/V input. How does the owner of a television set without A/V inputs connect a DVD player to his television set? Do DVD players have coax out on RF channel 3/4?

This is my situation and with my old VCR (very old, 12 or more years) DVDs wouldn't play properly. I purchased a new VCR (which can handle Macrovision) and connected the DVD player through that. DVDs play fine, but don't record. New VCRs allow Macrovision content to be played, but not recorded. At least that is my understanding.

The employee opens the package

[yerricde]

They WILL exchange an open title (audio, video or CD-ROM) for a sealed version of the SAME title.

Several years, I asked a Toys "R" Us employee about the store's return policy. She replied that whenever a customer returns a copyrighted item (e.g. a VHS video or a PC or console video game), the store exchanges it and opens the package before giving it to the customer.

Make one's own music? My sweet lord...

[yerricde]

and find a different store. When you have exhausted all of your stores, then maybe you should consider making your own music?

If I do make and publish my own music, how can I be assured that the songs that I write will be completely original and not unconsciously misappropriated from some popular song? Bright Tunes Music v. Harrisongs Music established that even unconscious plagiarism is actionable as copyright infringement.

Stand-alone RF modulator devices

[yerricde]

if you have a base model TV with no other inputs besides RF (Like I do), you have to get an RF modulator from radio shack ($30) or something similar.

Do the RadioShack RF modulators distort the picture in response to Macrovision signals? Or are they illegal to manufacture under the DMCA? Or if neither, why not?

That's a criminal complaint, not a civil suit

[Reziac]

When you charge someone with a crime, you DON'T "sue" them. You hie yourself to your local district attorney or police station or what have you in your state or local criminal justice system, and you swear out a complaint. After that, it's up to the cops as to whether the "fraud" is worth pursuing, tho you'll probably have to testify in court.

I don't know which action would be best for exposing these not-quite-CDs, but if you're thinking about acting against it, at least get a clue what the differences are between criminal and civil cases.

Re:That's a criminal complaint, not a civil suit

[zogger]

--I agree, that's why I mentioned in the post notifying the police. It just depends on the circumstances how anyone might want to go about it. You can theoretically push the matter as a bunco crime-fraud- and as you suggest let the local prosecutor decide, or try for civil penalties in small claims court, perhaps you lost time from work to return the item, whether or not the money was easily and cheerfully refunded, etc. It could even start as a class action suit, even on a small local size. Variety of ways. Usually you can/should/be advised to always start from a default position that if you as joe little guy have a beef with an entrenched larger and richer org of any kind that any wheels of "justice" are slow and rusted up, but ya never know until you try, who knows you might get a hip local DA who's gotten burnt at home with a crippled CD and has a fume going on about it. If plan A don't work, goto plan B. My position is try plan A or B, because plan C-complaining about stuff as the only option, hardly ever "works" to solve a problem.

Re:That's a criminal complaint, not a civil suit

[Reziac]

Right, and the advantage of the criminal complaint is that they can't really sue you in return unless it's a spurious complaint (there's some law against that, but I've had no reason to learn the details).

And that would indeed be the best case -- a DA who already had a burr under his saddle and was itching for a chance to attack.

And as you say, the **AA don't give a flip how much we complain so long as the bucks keep rolling in. And smalltime boycotts don't hurt anyone but the mom and pop shops.

Re:uhhh, wait a minute...

[Reziac]

But most production personnel and studio musicians are paid for X-many hours of work just like any other contracted worker -- not by royalties from sales of the finished product. Barring unusual contract terms, the studio end has already been paid everything they had coming, long before the album ever hits the shelves.

Re:uhhh, wait a minute...

[Grishnakh]

Maybe, but that's why you reward them when they're small and operating in a fashion that agrees with your ethical code, and you stop rewarding them when they become large and greedy and join the RIAA. Maybe if people started a trend like this, some record labels might just resign from the RIAA and go back to being independent.

Re:Also post them to the complete list of corrupt

[Andrewkov]

Uh oh, the grammar Nazis are having a field day today! ;-)

Simple-MusicLink.com

[thumbtack]

It used to be called Fairtunes, It's now called MusicLink.Com

At least you understand how the words work...

[leonbrooks]

...even if the rest of your life so obviously and anonymously sucks... (-: