Updated Power Macs at Apple.com

Gropo writes "Same old 'scary cyclops' quicksilver face. Up to 1.42 Ghz, FireWire 800, 802.11g and entry-level pricing has dropped. " With the SuperDrive and one of those massive LCD screens, you have a one highly desirable chunk of hardware.

Comments

Oooh yummy!

[ollie_ob]

1.42GHz!

Still a long way to 3GHz but we're getting there, revision by revision.

Still happier with my silent 600MHz iBook than a roaring G4 monster though...

Re:Oooh yummy!

[Secret Chimp]

People keep on forgetting that Intel chips do a whole lot less with each clock cycle than PowerPC chips. The reason that PowerPC processors have remained at lower clock speeds than Intel chips is because they can get the same amount of work done, if not more, in less clock cycles than it takes for an Intel chip. If only we could get IBM PowerPC chips in G4s... they've been making ass-fast shizz lately, but we've had to stick with Motorola. Maybe Apple doesn't like the slight irony of using IBM stuff.

Re:Oooh yummy!

[Znonymous Coward]

My 800 MHz iMac seems much faster than my P4 2GHz. Maybe it's just me, but MHz isn't everything.

Re:Oooh yummy!

[rot26]

My 800 MHz iMac seems much faster than my P4 2GHz. Maybe it's just me, but MHz isn't everything.

My 500mHz iBook seems about the same speed as my old PII-166. I'm not talking about number crunching or actual app speed, I just mean the SUBJECTIVE experience... screen redraws, windows opens, etc.

I really love it, but fast IT'S NOT.

Re:Oooh yummy!

[slughead]

PowerPC was invented by IBM, and may I remind you that Apple's going to purchase a consumer model of the IBM Power4 (from IBM) fairly soon.

Re:Oooh yummy!

[trash eighty]

Naa Apple have been using IBM made PowerPC chips for ages, G3s used in iMacs and iBooks nowadays are IBM ones i believe

Re:Oooh yummy!

[Anonymous Coward]

Processor speed aside, RAM speed is still the main problem with G3/4s. It's just a matter of persuading Motorola to implement DDR properly onboard, then they might be able to completely beat x86 with no problems.

Re:Oooh yummy!

[Directrix1]

OK, I'm tired of all this stupidity about how nobody knows exactly what MHz means, and how its not really a measure of speed. Here let me simplify your life:

Every processor has instructions that it understands. When executed, each instruction executes a sequence of microinstructions. Now these microinstructions execute at a rate directly proportional to the overall frequency of the machine (i.e. 133MHz ~ 133 million microinstuctions per second) with the following exceptions:
1) memory accesses in general are the largest bottleneck for any processor so it can decrease the speed of a processor tremendously without a sufficiently large cache and without a caching algorithm sufficient for the task
2) there can be, and usually are, parrallel microrocessing units inside of each processor, so this can increase the operational speed

Myth: Intel chips do a whole lot less per clock cycle than PowerPC chips
Fact: Intel chips have been extended to include all the same vector processing functionality included in most PowerPC chips. Furthermore, the CISC architecture is designed in a way where more work is theoretically done per instruction.

Myth: RISC is better than CISC
Fact: It all depends on the optimization and utilization of the available instruction set. CISC can theoretically do more per clock cycle than RISC.

Now, I'm not really advocating CISC over RISC. I personally hate CISC instructions sets as they are very hard to optimize for. But just because apple says something is faster and you want to believe it, doesn't mean you have too believe it.

Re:Oooh yummy!

[radish]

Indeed, when I studied processor design, the mantra was that CISC did more per cycle than RISC (as the instructions are more complex), but due to increased simplicity in design RISC chips run at a higher clock rate. Having a slow RISC chip seems to be the worst of both worlds!

Now, of course nothing is that simple, but the truth is that you need to devise a benchmark which represents your usage, and use that to decide - not some made up marketing numbers.

Re:Oooh yummy!

[overunderunderdone]

...Now these microinstructions execute at a rate directly proportional to the overall frequency of the machine

This is *vastly* oversimplified - there are complexities to processor design & trade-offs to be made that make clock speed almost useless for the sake of comparisons between chips with different architectures - even if they DO perform the same number of instructions per cycle (which often isn't the case).

there can be, and usually are, parrallel microrocessing units inside of each processor, so this can increase the operational speed

And this is one of the differences between PowerPC and Intel architectures - in general PowerPC has chosen to sacrifice clock cycle speed to do more instructions per cycle while Intel has chosen to sacrifice the number of instructions to get more speed. In other words Intel usually chooses to do one thing at a time really fast while PowerPC chooses to do several things at once more slowly. Right there you have a *partial* explanation for the MHz (now GHz) gap.

Fact: Intel chips have been extended to include all the same vector processing functionality included in most PowerPC chips.

I'm no expert on this but most reviews & articles from fairly non-partisan sites have concluded that Altivec is superior to the Intel alternative and that this shows up in real world scenarios.

The final upshot is that *in general* the PowerPC does more per cycle than an Intel chip. How much more (or even if it's more at all) depends on what exactly it's doing. But the fact remains: for most applications, especially multimedia applications that use Altivec, the PowerPC outperforms Intel chips of the same clock speed.

BUT intel is so far ahead in speed that even taking the "MHz Myth" into account Intel is still far ahead of the PowerPC in overall performance. Apple has got to get it's old AIM partners to step up or it will have to abandon the PowerPC for Intel (or intel compatible)

Re:Oooh yummy!

[swordboy]

People keep on forgetting that Intel chips do a whole lot less with each clock cycle than PowerPC chips.

Doesn't Linux run on both PowerPC and Intel hardware? Then why doesn't some enterprising individual go put together some various benchmarks comparing the two on this type of level playing field? I want to believe that the PowerPC is faster clock-for-clock, but I can't until I see some good benchmarks.

I just google'ed for some and all that I could find were some ancient BYTEMARKS.

It sure looks like it would be faster...

Re:Oooh yummy!

[afantee]

>> the mantra was that CISC did more per cycle than RISC.

The opposite is true: most of the RISC instructions execute in a single cycle, while many CISC instructions take much more, which is why raw clock speed is only perhaps meaningful for RISC chips and means very little for CISC, but totally meaningless across platforms.

People keep forgetting that the G4 has a much higher raw clock speed than most of other very expensive high end RISC systems like Sun UltraSparc or SGI Mips or HP PA. How come other RISC vendors don't get blamed for their clock speed, while everyone screams at Apple everytime a faster system is introduced? Could this means that people just love to talk about Apple because it's cool and we all want a better Mac?

Re:Oooh yummy!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm no expert on this but most reviews & articles from fairly non-partisan sites have concluded that Altivec is superior to the Intel alternative and that this shows up in real world scenarios.

I've actually programmed both SSE and Altivec, and you're right in one way: Altivec is far easier to program, provides a much cleaner vector instruction set, and does more per cycle.

The only problem is that it doesn't do TWICE as much per cycle in practice (save a couple of photoshop filters carefully selected by Apple), so the raw clock of x86 still makes Intel the winner in most cases.

Intel have also worked hard on getting their compilers to automatically generate SSE/SSE2 code, which really improves performance on _all_ programs. There is no such thing for the PowerPC - if you want altivec you will have to handcode it. (And no, all the new altivec support in gcc is limited to the compiler supporting the altivec C language wrapper instructions - it will not generate them automatically).

Motorola probably did the right thing FOR THEIR PRIMARY MARKET. Most PPC chips are doing signal processing in built-in systems where it is perfectly OK to handcode a filter for better performance/lower power consumption. The problem is that most general PC programs benefit more from Intel's approach which is more automatic.

Finally - Apple/Motorola has a bigger problem: it makes sense to invest time in handcoding SSE/SSE2 for a CPU with 95% of the market, but usually not for one with 5% of the market.

Re:Oooh yummy!

[afantee]

>> Someone here said that CISC does more per clock cycle than RISC, but that because of the inherant simplicity, RISC could run at higher rates

You are talking shit through your ass. A CISC instruction doesn't do more per cycle, it may do more per instruction, but takes much more cycles, so the clock rate correlates very little with the real performance. In other words, CISC instructions may take anything from 1 to 40 instructions to finish, which makes them difficult to optimize, while most of the RISC instructions take 1 or 2 cycles, which is why the clock rate can't be arbitrarily increased like the P4.

The old Intel x86 instruction set is truly a piece of shit in terms of computer architecture, and actually not used very much by modern software. But for backward compatability and marketing reasons, Intel keeps patching it with new instructions and never bothers to remove the legacy, which is why the P4 gets so complicated and consume so much electricity.

>> But, all that being said, my 1GHz AMD, which may be running at any one time Photoshop, Outlook, Visual Studio, Kazaa, DC++, a web server, and a whole host of other crazy things in the background.. well, my system seems much faster than any Mac I've used.

What the hell are you talking about? Have you ever used a Mac and do you realize that Mac OS X is a real server grade OS with true Unix power and stability as well as Cocoa ellegence. My 700 MHz iBook can do more things than you mentioned simultaneously and runs weeks and months without Windows style crashes. What's more, a Mac can be put to sleep and wakes up instantly, so you never have to power down the system for months. In normal usage, my iBook definitely feels more usable than the 16" 2.6 GHz Sony Vaio I was playing the other day, and it's virtually silent with a single battery lasting smore than 4 hours, while my brother-in-law's Sony lasts 2 hours with 2 batteries.

Re:Oooh yummy!

[cudaboy_71]

i call b.s. there is no way an ibook 500 feels like a pII-166. i have both of these machines. ok, i'll concede that the 500 runs a bit sluggish running osx 10.2 (which came out 12 months after the ibook 500 was EOL'd). if that's the game you wanna play, then install XP on the pII-166 and tell me how it runs--oh yeah, cant run XP on that old thing....hmmmm

Re:Oooh yummy!

[IamTheRealMike]

That's not really a very useful test.

For one, PowerPC chips can outperform Intel chips at the same clock rate, but they only do so reliably (as far as I'm aware) if you start using stuff like AltiVec. Most stuff can't be optimized in this way, but a few things can. So, if the Intel chips did outperform the PowerPC chips in a particular benchmark, then some people would just jump up and down and claim it's not fair because AltiVec wasn't used, or something. I've seen this before.

Secondly, testing clock-for-clock is interesting in an academic sense only. The subjective speed of a system can be affected by so many things, slight performance differences at the same clock rate make very little difference.

Anyway, I'm sure you're aware of all of this, but there are so many confounding factors it'd be very hard to get undisputable results.

Re:Oooh yummy!

[Aram Fingal]

Doesn't Linux run on both PowerPC and Intel hardware? Then why doesn't some enterprising individual go put together some various benchmarks comparing the two on this type of level playing field? I want to believe that the PowerPC is faster clock-for-clock, but I can't until I see some good benchmarks

Unfortunately, it is not as level a playing field as it should be. GCC is not as well optimized for PPC as it is for Intel. Under Mac OS, you get better optimization from CodeWarrior.

Re:Oooh yummy!

[robertchin]

CISC only does more per cycle if you assume that it takes one cycle to complete every instruction. This is not the case. Intel chips take CISC code, break it down into their own microcode, which is then processed. The clock speed that Intel reports is the clock speed of the chip that processes this microcode. The smaller the instructions can be divided up, the faster they can run the chip at. Clock speed is not necessarily a basis for comparing two different chips, even when of the same architecture, especially when Intel is involved.

Re:Oooh yummy!

[commodoresloat]

OK, I'm tired of all this stupidity about how nobody knows exactly what MHz means, and how its not really a measure of speed.

Come on. It's simple. MHz = dick size. All other debates over RISC, CISC, etc., ignore this fundamental fact at their own peril.

Re:Oooh yummy!

[overunderunderdone]

I would agree with just about everything you said - with a few of caveats.

1) The IBM PowerPC 970 looks good *now*. It might be Apples saviour - but I'm not counting on it until I see systems shipping. It's going to be a long time before any systems are shipping and by the time they ship x86 chips will be that much further ahead.

2) The 970 looks good *on paper* - but there is still time for IBM to screw it up and ship a product that doesn't quite live up to the hype - it happens all the time in the processor world & the 970 seems to have a lot of potential design issues they have to get just right (the "deep and wide" design and the way they group IOPs seem like performance killers if done poorly)

I totally agree that they aren't going to move to the x86 any time soon. They need to give their developers some time to recuperate from the last big change from the MacOS to MacOS X. But, if the 970 is a flop they will have to move pretty soon after, if it merely maintains the lagging status quo (which seems the most likely) Apple will still be crippled by the GHz gap but can stay the course and put their hope in the 970's successor. If IBM hits it out of the park with the 970 and catches right up to the x86 Apple will happily stay with PowerPC.

If Apple does move to the x86 they will just be using a different chip in their machines not producing MacOS X for all the wintel clones out there. It should be easier for their developers than the switch from the MacOS to MacOS X which is really a *completely* different OS. Aside from Altivec code most apps should only require a simple recompile to be ported from Mac PPC to Mac x86. Most of the work on Apples side has already been done. NextStep had to be ported from x86 to PowerPC to become MacOS X in the first place and back in the days of "Rhapsody" you could compile your Cocoa apps for PowerPC, x86 or as a fat binary to run on either. If I understand it right Marklar is just the continuing maintenance of all that initial work - very smart, it keeps their options open.

I would absolutely love one of these

[rollthelosindice]

Uunforetunately, My budget likes the $400 EMachine 1.5 ghz (of sometihnkg like that) a lot more than even the entry level powermac at $1499

Re:I would absolutely love one of these

[cbuskirk]

Of course you have to buy 5 or six of them over what will be the life of the G4. Ad a few more years on to that if your one of the people who knows that "You can't upgrade Macs" is a complete and total lie. You come out far ahead in the money department even if you have to go to your credit union to get a loan for the computer.

Wait for the IBM 970

[BoomerSooner]

I would wait on the IBM 970 (G5 whatever) that is coming out this next fall/winter. 64bit, 900MHz Bus, Altivec(or whatever it'll be called), approx 2ghz...

Unless you want a laptop then a Powerbook is a good buy (except 15", there are new bodies for 15.4" powerbook and iBooks on the way).

Just my 2cents being an Apple/Linux/Windows/Solaris user.

Re:Wait for the IBM 970

[jbolden]

I think you are confused here. For years Motorolla talked about another generation of chip. They had serious problems and then cut off development until very recently. That was the problem with the "G5". The i970 was an IBM plan to bring out a lower priced version of the Power chip line (and the Power chips have existed for years, Apple can't them at prices their customers will accept). IBM has already seeded the chip to developers. And they have a commitment to have the chips in mass production by Q3.

Incidentally the down the road on this chip looks very good. 2.5 ghz model may come out sometime in 2004 and IBM has already demod a buggy 6ghz model of the chip. At the same time the Power5 chip will be out soon....

Re:Wait for the IBM 970

[John Bayko]

For years Motorolla talked about another generation of chip. They had serious problems and then cut off development until very recently. That was the problem with the "G5".

As far as I know, the "problem" with the G5 wasn't the core, it was the bus. Motorola makes almost all its money selling CPUs for embedded systems, where system cost is more important than for desktops, and a large part of system cost can be the bus complexity. Motorola did get the G5s working, and as fast as promised, but with the existing cheap bus that wouldn't have done Apple much good.

Apple had specifications for a CPU bus that would meet its needs, but Motorola couldn't justify the expense of making a special version of the G5 in relatively small numbers, for one customer (who, face it, would just keep asking for special versions of any good future PowerPC model - not just a one time cost).

So Motorola kept its G5 design until the embedded market is ready for it, and Apple took its bus elsewhere.

IBM is developing the PowerPC 970 for its own use - specifically in "blade" servers, which need a lower power, cheaper and cooler CPU, while keeping up performance, which is exactly the same needs that Apple has. I don't know if Apple is going to get its bus in the 970, but it would be a simpler design than the POWER4 which actually uses two busses, one in and one out, allowing the CPU to keep sending addresses out even before it gets the data back in.

Either bus would be very fast. Motorola will ba happy it doesn't have to make custom CPUs, IBM will be happy it can sell more 970s, and Apple will be pissed at Motorola but will at least be back in the performance race again so it'll end up happy. Finally.

hold your tongue and say apple

[korea]

Think Differe-- BIGGER FASTER BETTER, Must...Catch...Up...

Re:Yeah...

[hcdejong]

Prices start at $ 1500, not 2000.

Do you know what kind of PC I could build for that much money??

One that won't run OS X, that's for sure.

Re:Yeah...

[BWJones]

For only $1999 ... Do you know what kind of PC I could build for that much money?? Then I just need the beowulf cluster..

Yeah, but can you get Firewire 800, Firewire 400, built in Gigabit, 54 MBps wireless networking, and a set of sweet applications like Apple bundles with their machines for only $1999?

The Bigger Story is the Displays

[Schlemphfer]

Maccentral has an excellent summary of the new Macs. To me, the most interesting part of the story isn't the incrementel improvements in the desktops, but the extremely steep price cuts surrounding Apple's flat panel displays. You can now get a 20" widescreen flat panel from Apple for $1299. That's just $300 more than Apple was charging yesterday for a 17" standard aspect model.

Re:The Bigger Story is the Displays

[MatthewRothenberg]

It sure looks to me like Apple's gotten ahead of its problems of last summer getting its hands on affordable LCDs. Apple announced that its future models would be LCD-based back in January 2002, but shortages forced them to back up a few steps. This pricing and the new range of laptop screens indicates that they're over the hump, I think.

The best part about Apple upgrades is . . .

[dgrgich]

. . . the fact that it immediately makes "last years" models much more affordable. Resellers like MacMall, Smalldog.com, & the others have great prices on these older models.

Of course, Apple may still have a problem selling these newer faster machines because they've managed to produce an OS that works fantastic on even older models like the dual 533 I'm writing this on!

Re:The best part about Apple upgrades is . . .

[jo_ham]

Indeed, we have a Meida 100 system as our primary edit suite and aside from the very expensive (approx £10,000) specialist editing card it's a stnadard single processor 867 G4.

We just bought a an old Mystic (Dual G4 450) and a copy of Final Cut Pro 3. We were dubious about it being able to work with full frame DVCAM but it's a little gem of a machine - so far we've had it playing back timelines with 4 video streams on along with 3 audio tracks.

It renders transitions in seconds.

I don't know how Apple expects to sell these new machines when we can produce broadcast quality edits using a three year old Dual G4.

Final Cut Pro 3 is too good on those old systems!

"Expandible"? (Obligatory spelling snipe)

[pnot]

Faster, more expandible, and more affordable than ever... The Power Mac G4 also comes with a library of creative, productivity and communications-specific third-party applications that leverage the strengths of Mac OS X.

But evidently not a spell-checker...

Re:"Expandible"? (Obligatory spelling snipe)

[andih8u]

maybe they meant to say expendible?

excellent

[Boromir son of Faram]

It's great to see Apple leading the pack in new hardware. They are bringing 802.11g and FireWire 800 to the people just as they did with SMP (that "1.4GHz" sounds a lot more impressive next to a 3GHz P4 when you realize there are two of the suckers in there) and 1Kbase-T.

Funny, Macs used to be faster than Pentii, but crippled by their other hardware (SCSI, memory, ADB) and OS. Now they have the advantage everywhere except CPU speed, and I think they're a whole lot better off.

I see the new PowerMacs as a gift. With their power, used wisely, we might be able to save my people from the growing Shadow in the East.

Re:Is a price drop at Apple news?

[Junks Jerzey]

Why dont you be fair and report on the next model eMachines, Dell or Compaq sells at Best Buy.

Because many people like what Apple is doing, and it's generally understood that if you could buy a Power Mac for the price of a Dell, then a whole lot of people here would get one. I mean, look, you get away from all the Intel/AMD nonsense, no crazy cooling issues, dual processors, flashy UNIX out of box with commercial applications available...this is the holy grail to a lot of people.

But no one wants to pay Apple's high-end prices.

Re:If you consider an EMachine on par with a PC

[YrWrstNtmr]

Just keep an eye on the power supply of that eMachine. They have to cut corners somewhere. My kids had one, and thats the part that failed.

Other than that, it seemed to be OK.

Re:This Just in

[Znonymous Coward]

Update:

Yes, Macs still more expensive than PC's... But they are worth it.

Highlights at 11.

Re:Why did they even bother?

[binaryDigit]

But, seriously, why did Apple even release this

True, why bother releasing new better competing products when you have new product coming out in 6 to 12 months (which we all know is nothing in computer time). People would be much more impressed with a jump from 1.25Ghz to 2Ghz vs seeing incremental steps and lowered prices along the way. Shame on them for not releasing new PowerBooks, after all it's been weeks since the previous announcment. Tying up those vast resources to bump up the processor speed and adding a few extra features, I'm sure this totally derailed any iMac or iBook efforts.

Look, I agree that they have soft spots that they have to work on, but laptops is not one of them. iMacs need to get cheaper, agreed. But they MUST continue to bump the TOTL PowerMac's to keep and hearts and minds of their high end buyers in the Mac camp. If they waited until the 970 to release ANYTHING in the PowerMac line, they'd be screwed big time.

If as some suggest that the new machines will be out in time for Summer MacWorld, then great. If not, don't be too surprised to see maybe one more bump if the new guys don't make it until the end of the year. I bet if Motorola can get them faster G4's, they'd put them out there pronto (as they did with these).

A good day for Mac users

[rworne]

I am suprised no one noticed that the ATI Radeon 9700 Pro is now a BTO option.

Still listed as "coming soon" though.

Checks the specs

[maceo1023]

Having yet to start repaying my $3500 Apple loan for my dual 1.25GHz machine, I couldn't believe the $1500 price drop. But check the specs -- no SuperDrive, less RAM, smaller L3 cache, smaller hard drive. Still, though.

I do.

[BoomerSooner]

But no one wants to pay Apple's high-end prices.

Until Linux has a decent desktop (where installing an application actually integrates with the menu) and has some decent apps (Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Flash, Illustrator, Premiere, ...) I'll be sticking with OS X on the client side and Linux/Solaris on the server side. Blue curve is a great try at a good desktop, maybe it will take off.

Linux has a long way to go to match the ease of use of even windows much less comparing it to OS X. I have no problems with linux b/c I've been using it since around '95 (ah slackware). However, trying to find all the workarounds to keep things playing friendly isn't fun on higher end or newer hardware.

Re:I do.

[ShavenYak]

Until Linux has a decent desktop (where installing an application actually integrates with the menu)...

Hmm, every app I install on my Mandrake Linux system gets integrated with the menu.

and has some decent apps (Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Flash, Illustrator, Premiere, ...)

There are competitive GPL'd apps for all of those (saving you even more $$$), or you could run Wine and get the Windows versions of any of them to run.

Blue curve is a great try at a good desktop, maybe it will take off.

No, Bluecurve is a desktop theme. Gnome and KDE are still the desktops underneath it.

I have no problems with linux b/c I've been using it since around '95 (ah slackware). However, trying to find all the workarounds to keep things playing friendly isn't fun on higher end or newer hardware.

I don't have to 'find workarounds' for my hardware, and it's all pretty new stuff. Then again, I'm using a real distro that actually goes to the trouble of making things work, not one that just slaps all the software on the hard drive and says, "here ya go!"

Re:Is a price drop at Apple news?

[johnpaul191]

big price drop on the LCDs, but the towers are upgraded. being the first or among the first machines to ship with Firewire800, 802.11g ready/equipped. it also says blutooth-enabled and bluetooth ready somewhere else, i don't know what the means exactley but .... hrmm... it seems in the stoe the top of the line BTO is Bluetooth included and the others are "ready". i dont know if it's the same little usb nub or some slick integration, but overall the upgrades and price drops are nice.

Re:Who's Hat

[calc]

You do realize that AMD Athlon XP 3000+ which is coming out in a few weeks only really runs at 2.16GHz right? ;)

A G4 runs at around 1.5x MHz an equivalent P4. So a 1.42GHz would probably perform about the same as a P4 2.13GHz. Also P4's can't run in SMP mode, although you can buy a Xeon for that, so a Dual G4 1.42GHz is roughly equal to a single P4 4.26GHz, currently the fastest P4 is 3.06GHz.

Now do you see why Apple is using SMP? ;)

Lower your prices, Apple

[vasqzr]

$1,499.00
Image
1GHz PowerPC G4
1MB L3 cache
256MB DDR266 SDRAM
60GB Ultra ATA/100
Combo drive
NVIDIA GeForce4 MX
64MB DDR video memory
FireWire 800
56K internal modem
Bluetooth Ready


Sell this to me for $899. Please.

For $500 more you get 1.25GHz, dual processors, and a 80GB HD.

They just cost too much to justify buying, since I wouldn't be using it for DTP/other Mac stuff.

Re:Lower your prices, Apple

[adzoox]

There is no $899 machine from any other manufacturer that has the specs this does. Apple DOES have a $899 G4 with monitor called the eMac.

If I go to Dell, I can configure a system shipped (no 800 firewire) for $1640 that is comparable to the base model.

Re:Lower your prices, Apple

[zaren]

What do you mean, lower your prices? This is already (I believe) $100 cheaper than the low end machine they were selling YESTERDAY, and it's faster!

To compare: as of yesterday, in the .edu channel, this was what I had priced out on their low end model:

$1643.00
867Mhz PowerPC G4
256MG SDRAM
40GB Ultra ATA drive
Combo drive
ATI Radeon 9000 Pro
64 MB DDR video memory

(+ 17" Mitsubishi monitor and Apple Pro speakers, and - internal modem)

On that model there was no FireWire 800, no Bluetooth, no Airport 800...

Right now, I'm looking at a low end machine with a faster CPU (1 Ghz), 20 gig more drive space, GeForce4 MX (better?) video, and faster ram, plus all the bells, whistles, and ports listed above, for $8 more than yesterday. If they want to give me all of that for an extra eight bucks, I'm not going to complain :)

Re:Lower your prices, Apple

[cenonce]

The $499.00 Dell (Gateway, HP, whatever) is a farce and borders on, IMHO, consumer fraud. Everytime, I go to Dell and try to configure a $499.00 Dell with the standard bells & whistles (that comes with a PowerMac, BTW), the price always jumps from 499 to 1100 or 1200 bucks (minimum).

Yeah, you can get a 499 dollar Dell, but it has the standard equipment of a four year old model.

What a joke!

I like building my own machines, especially for running Linux (webservers, file sharing and such), but when I want to get anything done (i.e., to make a living), I get it done on a Mac. I don't spend time configuring (as in Linux) and I don't spend time recovering from crashes or things just not working not matter what I do (as I do in Windows).

Re:Lower your prices, Apple

[Phroggy]

Explain to me again how a school buying more expensive hardware that isn't generally used in the real world is going to help my kid get a better education?

The whole "generally used in the real world" argument is utter nonsense. You should teach kids computing concepts, not specific applications or systems, because by the time they graduate, the specific applications and systems they used will be obsolete anyway, but the concepts still apply. It doesn't matter if a kid learns about computers on Mac OS X, Windows XP, KDE, Gnome, Mac OS 8, or Windows 95. They'll have to adjust later anyway.

However, there are two distinct advantages of not using Windows in school: first, since the student is likely to be using Windows at home, teaching them something else at school gives them a broader base of experience than what they might otherwise have exposure to, which will make it easier to adjust to other systems in the future. Second, it shows them that there are viable alternatives to Microsoft, so if they later choose to run Windows, it will at least be a real choice.

Re:Lower your prices, Apple

[phillymjs]

Explain to me again how a school buying more expensive hardware that isn't generally used in the real world is going to help my kid get a better education?

1) Macs remain viable computers much longer than Windows PCs. Hell, wouldn't surprise me if there were STILL a few schools with labs of Apple IIs that are plenty of machine for what they're used for.

2) Macs have been historically easier to maintain. Those schools that save so much money on their Dell hardware don't like to talk about the one or two dedicated Windows support guys they had to unexpectedly hire to keep the labs running. Mac labs were usually maintained by the teachers in their free time with little effort. Once OS X becomes prevalent in schools this should be even easier with the use of NetBooting and/or the utilities that automate re-imaging of the drive.

3) "Isn't used in the real world" is a bullshit argument. You shouldn't teach a child to use Windows, you should teach him/her how to use a GUI so they can apply the concepts to whatever they happen upon by the time they get to the real world. You shouldn't teach a child how to use Word, you should teach him/her how to use a word processing application so they can apply the concepts to whatever they happen upon by the time they get to the real world. Trade schools don't teach future plumbers only how to install Delta fixtures. They don't teach future carpenters only how to build stuff with Weyerhauser wood. Likewise they shouldn't teach children only how to use Windows and Windows applications.

~Philly

Re:Lower your prices, Apple

[cenonce]

FUD? That's a little dramatic.

Today's Celeron 1.7 is yesterday's PII 350. A PII doesn't run ME very well (heck I have a PIII 800 that doesn't run it very well) and a Celeron doesn't run XP very well.

48X CD-ROM drives were standard in 1999. Combo Drives (or at least a DVD and a CD-RW drives) are standard in 2003.

64 MB of RAM runs Win 98. 256 MB RAM does not run XP very well (especially with a Celeron 1.7).

"Free" 15" monitor!?! No thanks... you can't even find a 15" CRT in the store anymore. A 20 dollar Lexmark printer with crappy printing and an ink cartridge I have to replace after 2 months? Are they doing me a favor by throwing that in, or just trying to ditch old inventory?

I just went to Dell's site to build a 499 dollar PC! There was no more 499 dollar one, so I went with the 699 (799 - 100 dollar rebate). It ended up costing 1488. Yeah it as a PIV now... 1.8 ghz. 15" monitor (flat screen too), but no free printer. I added 512 MB of RAM to run XP. I upgraded to full operating system, XP Pro (Note: OS X only has one version). I added a Combo Drive (since that is the minimum you can get on a Power Mac). Gigabit ethernet wasn't an option. Neither was a graphics card. That could have something to do with the Intel built in video motherboard they used to save money. There is no AGP slot to upgrade that either. There is also probably only 2 PCI slots in that machine. And not likely any room to put a second harddrive.

All that and the thrill of using Windows! No thanks! I suspect that the reason the G4 is slow has more to do with the OS than the CPU. I suspect PIV's are so darn fast is because Windows is so full of security holes.

So I'd say for 1488, I'll pony up the extra 200 bucks to buy a CRT for an entry level G4 and not waste my time trying to upgrade a PC with no expansion slots, nor configure and secure Windows XP. And a single 1 ghz G4 Power Mac probably is comparable in speed (whatever that means) to a P-IV 1.8.

Like I said. I got nothing against PC boxes. I build them and enjoy doing it. The 499 dollar PC is great for a basic business machine. But these machines aren't directed at businesses. They are directed at parents buying for their kid. And I do have a problem with pawning off underpowered, unexpandable, unupgradeable machines as some great home media/game box to unsuspecting parents.

Re:So....

[binaryDigit]

I think the reason why Apple stuff is tolerated a lot more (other than the fact that it is not WinTel), is that Apple is the #1 producer of *nix based machines in the world. Not only that, but the ship more OSS "based" machines in the world (not to mention OSS based OS). So in that regard, they are much more meaningful than someone like Dell simply bumping the speed of their boxes. Remember that /. actually has a separate Apple section, so why is it news to YOU that Apple stuff would get mentioned more frequently?

Re:Who's Hat

[FleshWound]

Who's Hat

Yes, that is that question, isn't it? Who is Hat? And what does he have to do with PowerMacs?

;)

How many dB does it pump out?

[jamie]

What I'd like to know is how noisy the new mirror-face Power Macs are.

I have an older PowerMac by my left knee and at ear level it generates 44 dB of soft white noise. The new-style mirror-face PowerMacs also generate about 44 dB of noise. But it's whining, tonal noise. It's a note you can hum. It's a hum that cannot be ignored.

Also, apparently, when the mirror-face PowerMacs' auxiliary fan kicks on, it's described as a "leaf blower." It's a lot louder. (I haven't heard that -- the main fans are bad enough -- and it's possible that the recent firmware upgrade helped keep the leaf-blower fan mostly off.)

The hum is so annoying that there's a website devoted to complaining about it and trying to get rid of it: g4noise.com.

A friend of mine has a music lab with 20 old-style PowerMacs that he'd like to upgrade to newer models. He got one mirror-face PowerMac just to see what it was like. The noise is totally unacceptable for a music lab station -- there's not even any question -- I sat down in front of the keyboard and it took me three seconds to realize there's no way I would use this computer for music.

The best solutions seem to be building a plywood case, lining it with foam, and putting the whole PowerMac inside!

So I hope the new models have quieter fans...

Re:How many dB does it pump out?

[mpeeters]

It is _very_ quiet.
I have a 17" model and it only makes noise when the convective cooling does not work. Even then, the fan makes almost no noise. Really.

No dB levels, though.

Re:How many dB does it pump out?

[teamhasnoi]

Here is a website having to do with the madness caused by the noise of these new G4s. Here is a wav of the actual sound made by these monsters.

We can only hope that Apple changes the fans in the next rev... :(

Re:How many dB does it pump out?

[jamie]

Thanks for the link, here it is clickable:

Apple updates Power Macs, releases 20 inch display:

The noise level was one of the biggest complaints many customers had with the previous generation Power Macs. According to Apple, this problem has been fixed and customers will be happy with the results of the work put into correcting this issue.

"We worked really hard and went over the systems to find every possible way to make the system quieter," said Tom Boger, Director, Power Mac Product Marketing. "I'm happy to tell you that we've done that -- when the systems get out in the marketplace, I'm sure our customers are going to be delighted at how quiet these systems are."

"They are significantly quieter -- these will answer the critics," added Joswiak.

I hope so... I don't want my next Mac to end up looking like this...

Re:How many dB does it pump out?

[tbmaddux]

What I'd like to know is how noisy the new mirror-face Power Macs are.

The really bad noise in the (old) mirrored-drive-door PowerMac G4s is the same source as in the Quicksilver 2002s. It's the dual 60mm power supply fans manufactured by Delta. You can get good results by modding the case to get rid of them or replace them. Then you can get more aggressive with the rest of your setup.

Unfortunately those fans spin at constant RPM and don't respond to firmware fixes that others have remarked on -- the firmware fix is just for the mid-case variable-speed CPU fan.

Re:How many dB does it pump out?

[Mr. Spleen]

Or if you don't want to build a plywood case, you can always go for one of these things:

http://www.crywolfstore.com/cms/?action=BrowseCa te gory&category=Silencer

"The CoolMac Silencer uses heat pipe and air flow technologies to provide silent cooling while eliminating the need for external fans. The CoolMac Silencer reduces the noise of a Power Mac G4 from 65 dB to 37 dB. For comparative purposes, an empty 70 square-foot office with a computer, heat or air conditioning, and lights on typically emits 40 dB. What's more, the cabinet is airtight to prevent dust and dirt from contaminating the components."

There are several different models, including some that have built-in racks for Xserves (but you could put any rackable item in there).

They work really well. We have an Xserve in one and I didn't realize it was on until I sat on it and felt the vibration. =P

In Summary

[forged]

You get more for more !

I've heard that one before :)

ISP running on eMachines

[vasqzr]

*time travel back to 2000*

Ran over to Best Buy, bought 3 eMachines.

2 machines Celeron 366
1 machines AMD K6 400

One machine is the DNS server (RH 6.2)
One machine is the mail/web server (running Windows 2000, even)
One machine is the firewall (RH 6.2)

These machines still run to this day (we did replace the power supply in one of them though). Not bad machines at all, and they were like $189 each, floor models, no software, box, etc.

ISP that has about 700 users. Sure, not a big one, but the boss loved it. Cheap.

Re:read through it...

[Textbook Error]

But I don't think that this part you included was in the original article...

You heard that whoosing sound? That was the sound of a joke. Passing over your head.

Re:Yeah...

[hcdejong]

Well, yes. But then why compare your 'roll-your-own' system with a PowerMac G4?

Re:I hope you mean OS 9

[Twirlip of the Mists]

It still is laggy on the fastest machines.

No, it's not. I really don't know where people get this idea. I have a Mac that is, as of this morning, no longer state-of-the-art. It's got two 1 GHz G4's and a Radeon 9000 card. Is it "laggy?" No. It's faster than I am; the only time I wait on it is when I'm compiling.

I also have a 400 MHz G3 iMac, not a fast machine by anybody's reckoning. OS X is entirely useable on that machine for things like surfing and email, iCal, iChat, iTunes, iPhoto, and so on.

I think the people who still propagate the "OS X is slow" meme haven't used it in about a year.

Re:Yeah...

[overunderunderdone]

For only $1999 ... Do you know what kind of PC I could build for that much money??

Actually that is a pretty good question - Assuming your time is worth nothing, how much would it take to duplicate this on the PC side? A dual 2GHz proc (I don't go for steve's "PowerPC is twice as fast" but it IS at least a little faster than intel) with 802.11g, FireWire 800, Gigabit Ethernet, Bluetooth etc. Or assuming your time IS worth something how much to buy such a configuration from Dell.

Just curious

RISC vs CISC

[digitalscoots]

You can't compare clock speeds for a RISC processor to an Intel CISC processor. The clock speed only tells you how fast each instruction is executed, not how fast the CPU runs an application compared to a different architecture. A 1.42 GHz RISC processor may well be faster than a 3 GHz CISC processor in actual performance.

Re:RISC vs CISC

[fobbman]

Okay, now explain that to Joe Home computer user. Yeah, that's the same problem that Apple is having.

Apple may be better, but the race is in the numbers, no matter how invalid they are.

Re:RISC vs CISC

[hcdejong]

Except that according to various recent tests, it isn't. At least not in the Apple vs Wintel case.

Re:RISC vs CISC

[Oculus Habent]

CISC-based, no. But still they have plenty of CISC instructions (lots of the apps, the OS, etc), which it has to break down into RISC instructions, which takes processing time before they can be processed. The P4 has all sorts of requirements of the instructions to obtain performance anywhere near it's theoretical maximum.

Re:Display

[Twirlip of the Mists]

You say that like it's something new. Power Macs have always come without a monitor. Which is fine, because any third-party monitor will work, and lots of people like to save money by using an old monitor, or buying a non-Apple-branded monitor for their new G4.

Of course, now that the 17" display is down to $700, that becomes less of a point.

Question for Apple owners

[Twister002]

How often do you upgrade your computers? One of the big selling points of a Mac is it's stability. Yet, they release new products all the time.

I come from a PC world where the next gen of OS and Games usually means I have to upgrade my PC or I can't run these applications. I'd like to switch(tm), but I don't want to spend $3500 for a Powerbook just to find out that it breaks down in a year and parts cost a bundle. I'd rather spend $1200 on an iBook. See if the wife and I like it.

Do these new machines mean that much to Apple users, or can they happily chug away on their old iBook or Powerbook?

Re:Question for Apple owners

[Doctor Beavis]

It kind of depends on what you mean by 'upgrade.' If you mean get a whole new computer, I probably do so about every 3 years or so. But even that is more because of the lust factor than that my older computer is no longer able to run contemporary applications.

In terms of upgrading an existing machine, I still have my first generation G3 desktop machine that I bought in 1997. I have upgraded this machine several times over the years to keep it semi-up to date. I put in a 400 MHz G3 for about $200 (probably 4 years ago now), tons of extra RAM, a bigger HD, and added a FireWire/USB card. This machine runs OS X (although the GUI is much slower than on my 500 MHz G4 Titanium PB) and is still perfectly functional. I have friends who own PC's from that same era and they have long since had to abandon them (or change them to linux boxes, e.g.). Games are another matter - I was a bigger gamer in the past, but now play games like Civilization 3 and Sims that run fine on my PB. Twitchy first-person shooters (Unreal, etc.) really do need the power and graphics cards that you can't get in a laptop. If you are big into those types of games, laptops are NOT the way to go. On the other hand, the desktops are very upgradeable, especially now that Apple has AGP, uses IDE drives, etc.

As far as PB's breaking down, that would cost a bundle (as would any laptop), but you can get a 3-year extended warranty (covers EVERYTHING) for about $300. I thought it was worth it but will also be happy if I never need it (haven't had to invoke it yet).

Hope this helps.

Re:Question for Apple owners

[cedmond]

I still have an old "Beige" G3 tower at home. 266MHz overclocked to 300MHz, 256 MB RAM, came with a 4 GB (Yes "four") HD and I dropped a 60GB in it recently. I also added USB and Firewire PCI cards and upgraded the video card ( free from a friend ). It does everything I want it too, but is a little slow with the latest games. My point is they are very upgradable machines and they definitely have staying power.

I also work in a graphic design shop where we still have many Blue and White G3's running Photoshop and Quark all day long. They hold their own against the G4's and are not seen as a burden to work on.

Overall, I think Mac's tend to hold their value for quite awhile. If your not looking for the highest Quake frame rates on your block you should have a machine that will last for years.

Re:Question for Apple owners

[mjolnir_]

I've been supporting and working with Macs in the publishing and advertising fields for over 8 years now and I can tell you from experience that Macs have a longer useful life than Windows-based PCs.

Mac owners tend to hang on to their machines through more than one product revision cycle; sure, they're expensive, I'd love to upgrade, but my G4/400 here at work does everything I need it to -- and my G4/500 single-cpu at home runs Mac OS X quite well.

An increase of a few hundred Mhz is not a compelling upgrade for most. But jumping a few generations and replacing hardware that has performed flawlessly for three, four, five years? That's where you'll see me.

Now if only my CFO would start returning my calls...

Re:Question for Apple owners

[thatguywhoiam]

How often do you upgrade your computers? One of the big selling points of a Mac is it's stability.

You betcha. My upgrade cycle is 3 years. That's a long time in computer-land, but to be perfectly honest, I don't even need to upgrade every 3 years. Whatever Mac I have at the time is always working. I've never had one break down on me, ever. 3 years is my limit, my spendorphin count gets too high and I have to buy something new. It's never a case of 'my machine doesn't do X anymore', unless you're talking about whole features (CD-R, Airport, etc.)

Another way to look at it - I've noticed that every machine I've bought is 3x faster than the last in Mhz. So I figure my 466 G4 will be about ripe in the Fall when we see (approx.) 1.5-1.8Ghz 970-based G5s.

Re:If you consider an EMachine on par with a PC

[stratjakt]

They save money by bundling them with a boatload of adware, spyware, trialware, demoware, advertisements, ISP offers, etc. About 7 gigs on a 15 gig HDD was full of ad-ware bloat. A quick format and reinstall and you're all set.

As for the PSU, get a replacement (it's flex atx 5" wide, 4" deep - usually sold as 'for eMachines ,HP, or Dells') 200 watt PSU to replace the 145 watts they ship with. 20 bucks apiece.

The PSUs in there arent really 'cheap' per se, but if you want to add HDDs and whatnot, it's worth 20 bucks. At least that's what I did with the P3-era machines I bought.

My only hassles with eMachines was trying to retrofit a real drive cage into one of 'em so I could mount more HDDs. But thats generally par for the course with boxed brands. I also had trouble getting the goofy HSP modem in the little riser slot to work since they only provided ME drivers. I didnt need or use it anyways, I like my external USRobotics, so no biggie.

The mobo is micro-atx form factor, with a fairly low profile CPU cooler, I just finished moving all of an eMachine into a slick looking little VCR-style case with a cheap TV out card. Makes a nifty media player.

You get a lot of bang for your buck in those cheap boxes. Usually cheaper than the components would cost seperately. And like I said, the cheapness is because of kickbacks from all the spyware bloat thats preinstalled, so install your own OS of choice over it.

I dont think it's fair that only the editors get to slashvertise stuff. Buy an eMachine.

Re:Dumb question

[Ponty]

You need a device called a DVIator (good name, eh?) http://www.drbott.com/prod/DVIator.html

It's a little expensive, but that's because it has to do all of the power stuff that you get over the ADC.

Re:Pricing. (Spot the rip-off.)

[Lovejoy]

Apple is a hardware company that makes software to run on that expensive hardware.

Re:Who's Hat

[Zathrus]

Also P4's can't run in SMP mode

Depends on just how much hacking you're willing to do, but it's a pretty safe assumption that most sane people wouldn't be willing to draw new traces...

a Dual G4 1.42GHz is roughly equal to a single P4 4.26GHz

No it's not. SMP does not give you 2x the horsepower. If you get 80-90% of the horsepower you're doing well... and even then you only get the horses if you're actually doing something that take advantage of SMP. Which most users don't. Ever.

Frankly, most of the time your CPU is sitting idle waiting on you to do something. Or waiting on the I/O bus if you are doing something. SMP doesn't mystically solve this problem... usually it just makes it worse.

Are there applications for SMP? Sure. No question. But even most geeks who lust after SMP won't ever actually utilize it to the fullest.

currently the fastest P4 is 3.06GHz

Yes, and it can simulate two CPUs in one, which according to your SMP math makes it 6.12 GHz. Of course, even in the latest linux development kernels nobody's seeing a speed improvement of more than 30-40% in optimal conditions. In most scenarios it adds nothing, or actually slows things down due to I/O contention (which, admittedly, is more severe in a hyperthreading situation than a true SMP one).

Frankly, for the price of the Dual G4 1.42 GHz I can buy more than 2 P4 3.06 GHz boxes, which is a much better solution for most cases.

Have one at work

[mao che minh]

We have a dual 867mhz model running Jaguar. Before recieving this gift from our corporate masters, I had had little experience with Mac OS X (or Macs in general, other then loading Netware clients on them and running off before graphics design people could start asking for pretty flower things and such). This hardware is for real. The performace of one of these units as a small business file sharing server (for both other Macs, Windows clients, and Linux clients) and firewall while still being able to manipulate 400mb Photoshop files quickly is amazing.

Still, a bit expensive for the casual user. For a small business, this baby rules.

Slashdot FAQ please?

[BenjyD]

Could somebody please add a posting FAQ to slashdot including (at least - additions anyone?) the following points:

1)"Apple Macs are more expensive than a decent x86 box. "
We know that, you're paying for the engineering that goes into their design and their quality.
2)"Kde3? I use blackbox/ratpoison etc. Kde is slow! "
No, KDE3 runs very fast on a reasonable machine. If you don't want to use it, that's ok.
3)"In every discussion about either MySQL or Postgres, I must mention how much better Postgres/MySQL is at $FEATURE."
No, you don't. Anyone who needs to know the differences can go to the relevant websites and look them up.
4)"A new graphics card is out. When will it end!/I only just upgraded/they're too expensive"
This has been said many times, and is generally said about 100 times in every relevant story. I'm guilty of this one too. Please stop.

My only worry is that nothing at all would be posted to slashdot, and I'd have to start doing some work occasionally.

Re:Pricing. (Spot the rip-off.)

[zapfie]

Uh.. if Apple is a software company that makes their money selling hardware, then Apple is a hardware company. Not a software company.

Re:Pricing. (Spot the rip-off.)

[imperator_mundi]

As well as 5.99 shirts dominate over Armani's ;)

Indian student blues

[thesilverbail]

Well, how about me then?
I'm an indian student and it's been three years since I even saw an Apple anything. (and that was through a shop window.) Guess we third world geeks will just have to make do with assembled stuff.
*Sighs, and rides his elephant off into the sunset *

Re:Indian student blues

[kalidasa]

Well, how about me then?
I'm an indian student and it's been three years since I even saw an Apple anything. (and that was through a shop window.) Guess we third world geeks will just have to make do with assembled stuff.
*Sighs, and rides his elephant off into the sunset *

Just keep at it, man. You'll be buying us in 35 years.

Re:Indian student blues

[DrMaurer]

All I have is a ferret.

You obviously haven't learned anything from the Beastmaster movie. You should have one of those innate sense of connection things installed so you can steal keys and so forth and sneak into the evil priest's fortress.

Not that an elephant wouldn't be cool, but that's a more front-end assault kind of thing.

Re:What a ripoff

[slughead]

I think the Quartz Extreme technology is only supported on NVIDIA cards.

Quartz extreme is supported on any AGP video card for mac.

I even got it to run on my sister's Beige G3 with a PCI ATI Radeon 7000 using PCI Extreme

Invalid

[jbolden]

It wouldn't be hard to explain at all if the numbers were genuinely invalid. Apple could pull out the specmark, the MFLPs, topmark, or any of fifty other benchmarks (or all of them) and show people the numbers were invalid. For the Pentium I and the pre 3ghz Pentium IV apple had the advantage that the chips had problems with non optomized code, so you could use some alternate benchmarks. But even using non optomized code you get the following:

The G4 was equal to a Pentium 3 that is 20% faster so
800mhz g4 ~ 1ghz PIII

The first edition of the Penium IVs were very fast but terrible chips so
1.4 ghz G4 ~ 1.75 ghz PIII (if it existed) ~ 2.6 ghz PIV.

The problem was really that the 1.4 ghz G4 wasn't out to this year while the 2.6 was out last year and at a lower price. Now however at the 3+ghz range the PIV have instruction reordering of the PIII + hyperthreadng. That means it is at least as fast as the PIII and probably faster. That is a 3.0 ghz PIV would test somewhere between 2.4 ghz G4 and a 3.0 ghz G4.

So you really can compare ghz with a high degree of accuracy relative to Intel's consummer x86 line. Now if you want to play the cache game Intel can play that too since the Xeons are available for a few hundred dollars more.

Apple has a serious CPU problem. Motorolla has done horrible damage to Apple, lets stop trying to deny the problem exists. It is by far the single biggest flaw in the line.

Not quite

[coinreturn]

Actually, Apple has been offering a $400 rebate on the 17 inch for quite some time (well, you had to buy a CPU, too).

Re:Apple and AMD

[jokell82]

Apple and AMD? Not bloody likely. The only way that's going to happen is if IBM and Motorola suddenly stop making CPUs. The software would have to change dramatically to make a switch to x86, and every single application would have to be updated. It would be like the switch to OS X all over again, and I doubt many people would be up for that...

As for OS X for any x86 box, not gonna happen.

Absolute lies!

[Reality Master 101]

This turbocharged Power Mac rips through digital video and 3D projects faster than Pentiums can say "uncle."

I'm not a big fan of Apple in many ways, but this is what just burns me. I will never, ever deal with a company that is this dishonest. Benchmark after benchmark shows that a top of the line Intel KILLS the Macintosh, and is half the price to boot. How can Apple get away with bald-faced lying to the public like this?

Can't they just sell on the merits of their hardware and software, and just stick to the truth?

Re:Absolute lies!

[bnenning]

How can Apple get away with bald-faced lying to the public like this?

Because it's not a complete lie. There are a number of real-world tasks where G4s beat Pentiums due to Altivec (e.g. distributed.net's RC5 cracker). It is weasel-like, but no more so than Intel's assertion that a P4 makes the Internet faster.

Can't they just sell on the merits of their hardware and software, and just stick to the truth?

Marketroids...truth...that just doesn't work.

Re:Absolute lies!

[Reality Master 101]

but no more so than Intel's assertion that a P4 makes the Internet faster.

I have to admit, you've hit on another of my pet peeves. :)

This is the problem with literalist geeks who focus on a tree while ignoring the forest. Intel never claimed that a P4 makes your bandwidth higher. They claimed the Internet was faster -- which it was. The "Internet" is a set of services, not just a stream of bits. Particularly that this claim came in the era of Netscape, which was a horribly slow renderer. A faster CPU made page rendering much, much faster. You can also make the same argument about video over the Internet. More speed == smoother video.

So cut Intel some slack. To the average end user, a faster CPU means a faster Internet. It's completely unlike Apple's baldfaced lying.

Re:Absolute lies!

[TheRaven64]

This turbocharged Power Mac rips through digital video and 3D projects faster than Pentiums can say "uncle."
No, I've owned a Pentium for many years, and it's never once said 'uncle'.

Re:RAM controller?

[red_dragon]

The new systems, while considerably faster, don't appear to be much different from the previous models that you point to. From their tech specs:

• Up to 167MHz system bus supporting over 1.3GBps data throughput
• 256MB or 512MB of PC2100 (266MHz) or PC2700 (333MHz) DDR SDRAM main memory supporting up to 2.7GBps throughput

Hhmmm... 1.3 GBps vs. 2.7 GBps... sounds like the front-side bus on the new processors is running at single data rate, just like the previous iterations.

This is the same issue that the previous models had: the memory bus runs at double data rate, while the processors' FSBs run at single data rate, effectively half the speed of the memory bus. While this allows the remaining components (AGP, PCI, Ethernet, IDE, Firewire, etc.) to use DMA without stepping in the way of the processors, it also holds back the processors, specially when running Altivec-optimised code.

Don't blame Apple for this, BTW; this is Motorola's problem.

Re:Who's Hat

[droleary]

... and even then you only get the horses if you're actually doing something that take advantage of SMP. Which most users don't. Ever.

You never run more than one app? Or are you saying that threading on the OS you'd use is screwed up? On Mac OS X, threading is done at the Mach level, and it is dynamically shifted between processors. For those situation where an app can take advantage of multiple threads, adding support to a Cocoa app can be simple call to an NSThread object. I've had single processes suck up 180% of the CPU while 40 other ones ran just fine on my box. Buying a 2x Mac is something I have not regretted, but thank you for letting me know it would be a regrettable thing to do if I ever upgrade my Linux server.

Are there applications for SMP? Sure. No question. But even most geeks who lust after SMP won't ever actually utilize it to the fullest.

The truth is that no CPU architecture that's popular is being used to the fullest. Computers are sitting idle 95+% of the time waiting for the user to do something. And the other 5-% is unlikely to be a burst that pegs usage at 100%. All those 3GHz Intel boxes aren't any faster really, they just idle faster; that's not something to brag about.

Frankly, for the price of the Dual G4 1.42 GHz I can buy more than 2 P4 3.06 GHz boxes, which is a much better solution for most cases.

Please point to a major manufacturer that offers two PCs that are similarly spec'd to the one Mac, with the addition of the high revving engine, for the same price. Note that being able to hobble parts together in your parent's basement doesn't make you a business on par with Apple.

Challenger Remembered

[digitalgimpus]

Someone @ MacNN noticed that the Apple home page now features a Space Shuttle on the cinema display, ironically on the aniversary of the Challenger incident:

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?s=&thread id =142864

Ironic? Coincidence? Intentional?

Re:Pricing. (Spot the rip-off.)

[jbolden]

Spec out a Dell, IBM or Compaq relative to a whitebox shop. There is a much higher markup for companies that are going to provide support and honor warranties. Further because they actual have to fix things minor parts (like fans) tend be of higher quality so that they don't end up having to do a $200 repair because they saved $.50 on a $4 part.

Re:Yeah...

[BWJones]

I've used my apparently already obsolete regular firewire port exactly zero times. So Firewire 800 will let me transfer nothing how many times faster?

Whose fault is this? I use Firewire 400 on a daily basis to back up many hundreds of gigabytes of data (soon to be terrabytes if the next grant goes through). Firewire 800 would save me and those who deal with large amounts of data or video lots of time. Also, I suppose that Firewire could be used for large scale interconnectivity. See an editorial I wrote here for details.

Gigabit?. Sure. Just as soon as I plonk down another $500 for an 8 port gigabit switch to replace my $50 8 port 10/100 switch.

There are those that use gigabit networking you know. Apple is not making computers *just* for you.

Sweet Applications?

Yes.

You mean iTunes and iMovie?

Yes.

You have to upgrade to the superdrive for iDVD to work.

Yes, but I also use the Superdrive for other data as well.

They are nice applications but PC owners can get nice applications with all the money they saved and stil have some left over.

And you end up at the same price point if not more for a kludgy inelegant solution that does not run UNIX applications along with Photoshop, Office, etc...etc...etc...

You have to come up with a convincing cost/benefit analysis based on benefits they will actually use.

I along with at least a few million other folks on the planet seem to think that there is a convincing cost/benefit analysis to purchasing a Mac. For me, I was able to buy a single dual G4 and replace a Windows box, an older Mac *and* my SGI Octane with a sweet display that saves much money in terms of software licensing, hardware purchase and maintenence contracts (SGI).

Based on the actual benefit to me, Apple would have to cut the price on that $1999 model down to under $1000 w/o the superdrive or around $1200 with.

Yeah, its called the iMac or eMac which can be had for educational customers at that price. If you are not a student or faculty member somewhere, it will cost you a little more, but for the money there are almost no other machines that will match feature for feature with a Mac.

Try this and show me the app.

[BoomerSooner]

rpm -Uvh openssh*.rpm

Where is the menu item? Look at all the kick ass gui tools for OS X Server that make running Apache as easy or easier than IIS.

Until everything is integrated it's not there for the end user. I have no problem with linux on the server side (with the exception of a thread error in the smp kernel that comes with my rocket raid 100, killing my server dead using ssh/sftp).

Re:I hope you mean OS 9

[Draoi]

I'm running on a very early (pre-production) blue iMac which has been hacked to 333MHz with just 128MB. Runs like a champ on X.2.3. Sometimes the dock genie effect gets choppy & pixellated but it still works just fine. And hey - it's got to be approaching 5 years old now ....

(Try taking a 5 year old PC & installing XP on it & see how it performs. Fun & games)

Yay! The CPU debate begins! Again...

[TwitchCHNO]

"My 4 THz Intel Pentium IIIVIXXX is father then your 16 KHz G101"

For those of you who have not read ALL of the CPU articles at ArsTechnica. Go there now and do so. Before posting any of your inane babble about clock speed and processor power.

It IS true that Motorola has fallen behind Intel - sort of.

There are other advantages to hardware other then Intel based systems.

Since this is an Apple thread I'll focus there - One of the most note worthy (My opinion) Is apple's System controller.

Go READ the articles at ArsTechnica!

Rather than re-writing I'll simply cut & paste.

Fast system controller: The system controller, first introduced in Apple?s highly-regarded Xserve line, coordinates and transfers data and instructions among the processor(s), PCI bus, memory, graphics and I/O buses of the Power Mac G4. Controller speeds in the new Power Mac G4 configurations run as high as 167MHz.

The PCI bus is what really impressed me.

Direct PCI bus: In another example of superior architecture, the Power Mac G4 optimizes PCI performance by connecting the PCI bus directly to the system controller. In a typical PC architecture, PCI devices connect to the I/O controller through a bridge, a bottleneck in the data path where all connected PCI devices are slowed down to avoid overloading the system controller. Going through this bridge constrains PCI throughput to 133Mbps (the bus speed on Pentium 4 systems), even with otherwise fast PCI devices. This slowdown of data to and from PCI devices results in greater overall system latency. The Power Mac G4, on the other hand, features a direct 266-MBps bus to the PCI slots to guarantee high throughput and low congestion ? in effect, lowering latency. The Power Mac G4 also supports write combining, which allows write instructions to be grouped into one large instruction, further increasing data throughput.

Then Apple oficially slams PC architecture.

On the Power Mac G4, FireWire, Gigabit Ethernet and even the ATA/100 bus are built into the system and integrated directly into the system controller. (The ATA/66 bus has its own controller.) This dedicated connection reduces PCI congestion and guarantees low latency, resulting in optimal FireWire, Ethernet and hard drive performance. And as a side benefit, it also keeps the computer?s PCI slots free for your specialized audio and video cards instead of using them to provide basic technologies.

I got this info here.

Go READ the articles at ArsTechnica!

Apple is not the end all - be all of systems. Two of the greated systems are made by DEC & H/P. The UltraSparc kicks the crap out of anything Motorola & Intel have to offer.

And let's not forget the Alpha. The Pentium - Pentium III architectures were based on technology stolen from DEC. Technology that Intel is still paying for today.

It basically falls down to system preference. Mac users DO NOT CARE if you can build a PC for $400. Mac users DO NOT CARE if only a few of the best selling game titles are ported to the system.

Having more game titles available is a Good Thing - naturally -but I find myself being... PRODUCTIVE instead of having my time eaten away by games - Linux users also what I'm talking about - unless they've downloaded BZFlag or Crack Attack.

Go READ the articles at ArsTechnica!

No USB2?

[harlows_monkeys]

No USB2?

Yeah, I know Firewire 800 is way faster than USB2, and Firewire 400 (which is what most people will be using for quite a while, since there aren't many Firewire 800 peripherals) is slightly faster in real life (USB2 is theoretically faster than Firewire 400, but the benchmarks I've seen have Firewire actually getting a little more out of things like disks), and that Firewire's isosychronous ability and latency guarentees is essential for some applications.

However, when I go down to stores like Best Buy or Circuit City I see a busload (pun intended!) of USB2 hard drives and CD and DVD readers and writers, and just the occasional Firewire drive.

For those of us who like to buy the small things locally instead of mail order, and don't live in one of the areas where there is a nearby Apple dealer...we need USB2.

Re:No USB2?

[phillymjs]

If you want it so bad, buy a USB2 card. Jaguar has built-in support for it, Apple just doesn't include it in their machines.

Most if not all of the USB2 peripherals can be connected to a USB1 bus as well (but will just run at USB1 speeds), so there's pretty much no reason why you couldn't buy them if you REALLY wanted to.

~Philly

There is more to the Mac than just GHz

[afantee]

How about Firewire 800, Airport Extreme, Bluetooth, Superdrive, 2 MB L3 cache, 2GB RAM, 4 internal disk drives, Gigabit Ethernet, Mac OS X, dozens of free programming tools, iLife, the style, the reliability, the lower TCO, ...

Come on people, I thought /. readers are intelligent enough to look beyond the box.

Re:There is more to the Mac than just GHz

[TheRaven64]

Come on people, I thought /. readers are intelligent enough to look beyond the box.
You did? Umm, why? I assume you don't have any evidence of this behavoiur...

A specsheet is a specsheet is a specsheet...

[HaverOfPeculiarBox]

All the posts with the drawn-out spec sheets comparing the $1500 PC to the $1500 Mac are a little silly. It's no mystery that you can get more stuff thrown in your PC for less money. Unfortunately, when people see these side-by-side spec sheets with price tags on the bottom, that usually makes their decision for them. And more often than not, it's the wrong decision. As an example, my friend bought some no-name sweatshop-made Intel crapbox a few years ago, because he got an insanely speced-out machine for under a grand. And as months rolled by, everything in it started breaking one by one... not to mention the fact that it would BSOD all day long. Apple's quality is evident not only in looking at the hardware design, feeling the strength of the assembly, looking at how the inside is layed out, etc... but also in the lifespan of the machines. It's not uncommon to see people using 5 or 6 year old Macs on a daily basis, with little complaint. (Incidentally, this is what often skews the often-published statistics on Mac marketshare. Market research companies often base these numbers on number of computers sold, ignoring the fact that Macs tend to remain in use much longer than PCs.) Apple could easily compete in the cheap computer market, but they've decided not to. I don't know whether it's a good decision or not, but it's a decision that they've clearly made and are sticking with. Now the question is, when will we be seeing G5 machines from Apple? When those hit the market, Apple just might have a huge lead in the specs department. And with that lead, maybe they'll unleash Marklar on the world (OSX for Intel hardware). It would make OS X available to everyone, while still retaining a compelling enough hardware edge to get people to shell out the extra cash for Apple computers. I hope Marklar's more than just a rumor... it would cause the biggest shakeup the industry's seen in years

Re:Lower your quality, Apple

[phillymjs]

When kids come out of school not knowing how to use a two-button mouse, there is something wrong.

Oh, please. ADULTS don't know how to use a two-button mouse. Kids today are far more adaptable when it comes to technology and will pick it up in about a minute. You have just won the award for the most weak-ass argument I have ever read on Slashdot.

If I only had a nickel for every time this exchange has taken place during a tech support call I have taken from a Windows user:

Me: "Okay, now right-click on that icon to bring up the context menu, and
select 'Properties' from it."
Them: "Ok, I clicked on it, but the icon just goes dark."
Me: "Did you click, or right-click?"
Them: "What do you mean, 'right-click'?
Me: "Right-click, as in, click the right mouse button."
Them [astonished]: "You mean, it does something else?"

Mind you, these were all people who had been using Windows computers for years in the business world, and were still clueless.

I really wish people would just drop the God damned one button mouse argument altogether, because it's 100% bullshit. The one button mouse has been PROVEN in usability testing to be the way to go for the uninitiated user. People who aren't new to or afraid of computers who want more bells and whistles on their mouse will just buy whatever trackpad/trackball/mouse they want and toss the Apple one in a drawer.

If Apple left this input device choice up to people by not including a mouse at all with their systems, you trolls would be all over them for THAT, too.

~Philly

If you think Gimp == Photoshop you're not the ...

[BoomerSooner]

intended user of Photoshop. How about InDesign/Quark? Do you have anything for those. Oh yeah btw I tried to get PS 5, 5.5 and 6 (havent bothered on 7) running and they wouldn't run under Wine (I do run Textpad in Wine).

Bluecurve IS a desktop since the theme is what the user interfaces with and not the underlying Window Manager.

Apparently you don't have any hardware that is unable to work on your "real distro", however in the "real world" I don't have time to fuck with tweaking the system for several hours when on another system it just works.

Try running a Highpoint Rocket RAID 100/133 card on a SMP Intel based system. There is a kernel error that is caused in the smp thread implementation that I don't care to trace down. Also I have a new mobo using "Chipset: VIA KT400 / VIA VT8235" and it will not install 7.2, 7.3 or 8.0. How's that for "stable".

Like I said I'm a huge linux fan having used it since '95. It amazes me every day how far it has come. It also reminds me daily of how far it needs to go.

Re:Who's Hat

[jweatherley]

No it isn't. How many multi-threaded programs have you written? It is nowhere near as simple as just creating a thread and setting it loose in a program that wasn't designed to be multi-threaded.

I don't know about the grandparent but I have written a Cocoa app with threading and it was pretty simple. Not every multithreaded app is a shedload of worker threads all modifying the same database - sometimes the task to split up is fairly trivial.

In my case I was applying filters to an image to convert it to Sinclair ZX Spectrum format. To take advantage of dual CPU's I simply split the image in to two parts when applying those filters and have a simple lock to make sure that the job is truly done before moving on to the next filter.

apples dont care about worms

[mattlamb]

I know its a touchy subject with all these microsoft slash-dotters but I slept fine at night knowing that my apple was safe from the worms...

There is much more to the Mac than GHz

[afantee]

How about Firewire 800, Airport Extreme, Bluetooth, Superdrive, 2 MB L3 cache, 2GB RAM, 4 internal disk drives, Gigabit Ethernet, Mac OS X, dozens of free programming tools, iLife, the style, the reliability, the lower TCO, ...

Come on people, I thought /. readers are intelligent enough to look beyond the box.

Re:Why subjective speed talk modded up?

[King_TJ]

You ask why a completely subjective comparison on CPU speed would be modded up?

Answer: Perception is 9/10's of reality. This holds true in the courtroom every day (as any good lawyer can tell you), just as it does when it comes down to people using their computers.

No benchmark can account for the millions of combinations of hardware/software people run on a given platform. Why do you think most of the PC benchmarking sites (Tom's hardware, etc.) typically pick a few games like Quake 3 as "standards" for comparison? They simply chose popular programs that seem to heavily tax many aspects of a system.

I have a theory, too, when it comes to long-time Mac users. They've been stuck in a basically non multitasking environment for so long, they often get an overrated perception of their newer system's overall power in OS X. (Quite simply, their eyes are opened to how much more they can get accomplished on their new computer because things put in the background really do process in the background.) They forget that over on the "Intel" side of the fence, people have been doing this (and expecting it to work that way) ever since the days of Windows '95 and NT 3.5, not to mention all the Linux and BSD users).

When you put aside any personal efficiency gains obtained simply from the OS allowing true multitasking - I think you find OSX lacking in speed compared to Linux or even Windows XP on a P4 class computer.

(Not that OS X isn't still pretty cool.... I've got it running on a Mac system at home myself. I just accept that the hardware isn't as powerful as my PC's, and use it for other reasons.)

Re:If you consider an EMachine on par with a PC

[Pinky]

HP and eMachines are aproximately equals is crapiness. Especially at the low end. I have two low end HPs. They are evil little things. I also have a custom built PC and a mac wintunnel. They are far superior in quality (keyboard, mouse, screen, vid card case powersupply are all better). I will grant you that the processor speeds are were you would expect, however.

Re:So....

[binaryDigit]

No it's not more meaningful, Apple is fashionable and Dell is not. That's it.

Well I would agree with you up to a point. Apple does have the cult behind it, and therefore is more "pc" to swoon over. HOWEVER, this does not change the fact that Apple, primarily due to OSX, does have the strongest ties into the OSS/*nix community of all the major hardware manufacturers. Yes, they're fashionable and cool, and the posts responding to articles about them tend to be the same thing over and over, but then again, what somewhat repetively themed articles on /. don't end up being that way.

The idea that everybody loves Apple because they, ooooh, used Unix and woweee, took some open source code to do it with, is just plain wrong - the difference is the ridiculous groupthink here means that dissenting opinions only rarely get seen.
Well _I_ wouldn't mod you down ;) I understand your point, but I also disagree with your statement, it's no more "ridiculous groupthink" than the whole OSS movement and the prevelant view of it here. I think the reason you get mod'ed down is that your opinion is not stated in a way that directly addresses the statements (at least it was in this case). I said that I think that Apple articles are more on topic than some other hardware manuf. because Apple utilizes a somewhat OSS as it's primary OS and because they ship more *nix boxen than any other manuf. Now you might have a disagreement with my facts, but you did not state it, instead you claim that those facts have nothing to do with it, and it's just groupthink. Well, you never countered my statements, you just dismissed them and proffered an opinion that can't be validated. That in many peoples books is a troll. One interesting test would be to see if these type of Apple articles appeared with their current frequency pre-OSX, if so, then your statement holds more water. If not, then that would tend to lend more weight to mine. But again, offering up something that can be intelligently discussed/checked/debated, vs a simple "ya'll are a bunch of anti-WinTel sheep" (but then again I guess if the shoe fits ;)

Apple Store Fairy

[opwierde]

Imagine ordering a Powermac G4 867 MHz a week before the new models come out... It was after the Expo so I thought there wasn't anything new pending. Someone at the Apple store decided to give me a break, phoned and offered to deliver the new 1,25 GHz DP instead for the same price. What would have happend if I had ordered a week earlier?

Re:I hope you mean OS 9

[thedbp]

I had the extreme pleasure of being surprised by an original Bondi Blue iMac.

A friend was trying to get his cable modem to work with the iMac, and Comcast told him his Enet port was broken. So he came to my house to have it checked out, because I use Comcast too.

This is an ORIGINAL iMac people. 233 MHz G3, only 192 MB of RAM. I booted it up expecting at the very latest 9, more likely 8.6, but lo and behold, there was OS 10.2.3. And let's be clear about this: this was NOT a speed demon of a machine. However, all basic user actions were almost instantaneous, app launch times were very reasonable, and it could handle quite a bit of activity without slowing down.

I was shocked and amazed. This model came out in '97 for crying out loud. Anyway, his Enet port was fine, Comcast just had their heads up their butts.

Re:Who's Hat

[droleary]

Running more than one app doesn't utilise multiple processors, as 99% of the time if you're not interacting with an application it's simply sitting in an event loop waiting for input.

As I pointed out, that is true for any common architecture. A single processor isn't used 99% of the time it waits on input. You're actually supporting my point when you start talking idle times (which is kinda why I brought it up :-).

How responsive the system feels has little to do with how many processors it has.

Tell that to anyone who has ever owned an Amiga, or currently owns an accelerated video card. Co-processing, in whatever form you can get it, puts in place an abstraction that you can potentially derive great benefit from. Alll I know is that when I run a single, compute-bound thread, I'm happy to have a second processor around that isn't getting hammered at 100%.

No, very few people have machines that constantly utilise their processor, but when they DO utilise it, they want it to be as fast as possible.

See, now here you have something that is testable. Burst processing can be an issue, but the question is whether or not it's an issue for you in reality. To test it, you can simply put a process in place (or mod the kernel to log similar) that snapshots when the system is at >98% (or whatever) CPU usage and for how long. Then you could reasonably determine how much of your burst potential you're actually using. Only if those stats support your point could you can reasonably say a PC would be a better choice than a Mac based on the CPU gap alone. Otherwise, you're just trying to start a pissing match for some unknown reason. For what is done on the desktop these days, the Mac is plenty fast.

This line is getting tired.

Then maybe PC people should shut up with their own bogus claims that Macs cost twice as much. As for claims of not wanting Firewire, how about me not wanting to shell out for a floppy drive or PS/2 port when I buy a PC? At least when Apple includes technology with their system, it isn't some shit I haven't used in 5 years. This coin has two sides, so why flip it?

If you are able to build machines yourself, why is that not as good as buying a machine from Apple?

Because then it isn't a parity comparison. Just because you've spent a lot of time and effort picking out and building a system for yourself (at some hourly rate which you will no doubt leave off of the bill for the cost of the PC) doesn't mean anyone who wants a computer can do the same. If you are so certain you can system build for the masses better than the likes of Dell, go into business and get rich. Now point me to the URL of a name brand that shows you can get a built PC that is on par with a Mac for half the price. Otherwise, it's you guys that have all the tired lines.

Re:Yeah...

[labratuk]

The New iMacs on store.apple.com start at $1200.

And while the eMac would be better, I'm still paying for an integrated monitor and a load of other crap that I don't want.

I don't know about you, but I just can not afford to spend $1100 on a computer.

People are always harping about how good MacOS X is, how it has succeeded in doing what Linux has failed to do, and claim that the machines to run it aren't all that expensive for what you get.

But they always overlook the fact that if you ignore the 'for what you get' bit, it remains that they are still expensive.

Urban legend

[Markonen]

You know, the 1.25GHz macs were never overclocked. Take off the heat sink and see "7455A 1250" on the chips. This rumor started to spread after Motorola didn't update their G4 specs to include 1250MHz availability. The likely explanation is that these parts are only available to Apple.