Japan Subsidizes Linux Development, Considers Switch

TheAB writes "Japan is betting 50 million yen ($450k US) that the next-generation of high-tech products and computer networks will rely on open-source software. The money is to develop an 'operating system for consumer electronics goods'."

Comments

I don't know about this

[WickedClean]

Isn't Japan and China and the surround areas notorious for software piracy? I mean...if they are already stealing commercial software and using/selling it, why would they give a crap about open source? Sounds like a big coverup!

Re:I don't know about this

[Anonymous Coward]

I have heard of MS and other companies approaching the chinese government about their wide use of pirated software (in many cases the chinese themselves don't realize it's illegality) and faced with the option of buying huge amounts of expensive software, or moving to something open source, they are moving to Linux.

Or something...

Re:I don't know about this

[awa]

Err... putting Japan and China in the same bag is akin to saying the U.S., Mexico and surrounding areas are all alike.

Besides, if you read the story, the entities mentioned are Ministries and two _very_ big corporations (Sony and Matsushita) - highly unlikely to be pirating software.

Re:I don't know about this

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd be surprised if there wasn't more piracy in the United States than Japan. I think one of the biggest problems in Japan is just getting the software. I recall reading an article about an American who started working in Japan and the huge headaches getting any software at all for the buisness he worked for, and how many hoops he had to jump through in order to even buy something direct from the US.

Re:I don't know about this

[kryonD]

Do a Google on Akihabara. Or if you're too lazy to do that, just imagine an entire city of computer stores. I was just there three weeks ago and there is MORE THAN ENOUGH sources for legitimate software, both Japanese, or English versions.

As far as illegal software, there is a great deal of street vendors who pawn that stuff off, but I've seen the same thing in New York. It may be a little bit worse in Japan due to the vast availablilty of high-speed broadband. And no, my use of high-speed and broadband is not redundant. I have a 12MBit ADSL line which usually averages 2.5 MBit, but on sites that can handle it, I've gone as high as 7.5MBit sustained. There are also regions that run 100MBit ethernet straight to your home. I only pay 2800yen (~$25) per month for my ADSL, which makes piracy quite cheap for me if I decided to go down that road to make an illegal yen or two.

Now, I have also been to Hong Kong, where after 5 days I had still not located a store that was actually selling legitimate copies of software. But there were more places than I could count pawning off the illegal copies.

Re:I don't know about this

[EvilAlien]

Ya, that whole asia place. Good thing an honest hard working American would never be involved in piracy, or the foundations of Right and Wrong would just collapse!

Some places in Asia are notorious for software piracy, or at least notorious for not having enforced legal controls against the selling of software in violation of someone's copyright.

More ideas to laugh at... as far as factual basis for switch ads go, what is the tally? Sounds like Linux is kicking Mac OS's ass, doesn't it?

Re:I don't know about this

[abirdman]

Ummm... your post is right on, and I agree, but I wonder what the "surrounding areas," to which you referred, might be? The Atlantic and Pacific Oceans? Canada?

Re:I don't know about this

[rseuhs]

Isn't Japan and China and the surround areas notorious for software piracy? I mean...if they are already stealing commercial software and using/selling it, why would they give a crap about open source?

Because:

• Open Source products are usually more secure than the crap Microsoft puts out and if they aren't you can fix them.
• Windows introduces a single point of failure (what if Microsoft decides to discontinue the product? It happened before, they discontinued Windows on Alpha - what guarantees do you have that WinCE on your embedded CPU isn't next? What if Microsoft pulls out features you need? What if Microsoft raises licence costs to insane levels?)
• Doing modifications is very beneficial, especially in embedded devices
• Japan is not viciously pirating software anyway (but China does)
• Even if Japan were massively pirating software they couldn't use pirated software in embedded devices
• The only real advantage Windows has is Win32-application compatibility - something most embedded apps don't need. So why use Windows instead of something you can fully control?

Defined "betting"

[Rocko Bonaparte]

Japan plans to spend about 1 billion yen (US$8.3 million) funding Asian software developers working on the open-source Linux

This makes it sound like a certain win, but what is this about "betting?"

Tokyo has already budgeted 50 million yen (US$416,000) for next fiscal year to study the possibility of switching government computers to an open-source operating system.

So are they putting that upfront to see if it's worth it, with the $8.3 million conditional? It sounds exciting, but I don't want to hold my breath without clarification.

Re:Defined "betting"

[Big Mark]

"$8.3 million conditional"

Bear in mind that to a governemt, that sum is chickenfeed. As they are putting the equivalent of a rounding error upfront, I think it shows that they aren't overly confident of its succsess.

Just my $0.02...

-Mark

Actually...

[Archie Steel]

According to the article that's 50 million yen for Tokyo alone...for the whole of Japan it's closer a billion yen (8.3 million$).

In either case it's not that big of a sum, but any amount helps!

Re:Actually...

[That_Dan_Guy]

Yeah, the 450k would harldy hire 2 or 3 programmers and the office space for a year in Tokyo.

Re:Actually...

[Timesprout]

Presumably though as it is a feasability study they will source a consultancy group to execute it. I'm sure Gartner and their ilk will quite happily pocket 450K for a study of this nature and produce a nicely formatted 10 page document at its conclusion.

Even if they do execute in house its still a reasonable upfront investment for a feasability study.

Re:Actually...

[kryonD]

Actually, starting salary for an experienced UNIX C Programmer will range from $90K to $160K just monetarily. However, most companies have deals with housing agencies that reduce the need for a higher salary. The programmers just have to live in one of the company houses/appartments. All the infrustructure is probably already in place, so I'm betting that they will hire 4 somewhat experienced programmers and give them a logitics budget of around $20K. That's actually a pretty good development team for this project considering they will be doing it full-time.

Re:Actually...

[Fulcrum of Evil]

The funny part is, were this anywhere save New York or Tokyo, it'd come across as bitter irony.

Math

[1984]

From the article:

Japan plans to spend about 1 billion yen (US$8.3 million)... working on the open-source Linux operating system for consumer electronics goods...

That might be a useful amount. Separately:

Tokyo has already budgeted 50 million yen (US$416,000) for next fiscal year to study the possibility of switching government computers to an open-source operating system.

So that's $8.3M for working on embedded Linux, and $416K for a study into looking at moving government computers to using Linux. "Government computers" is kind of a broad brush. Anyone know if that's servers, desktops, or really is just a general look?

Re:Math

[Rinikusu]

That doesn't mean "linux". Open Source Operating System != Linux, folks. IT could be one of the various BSD's or even something like Plan 9.

Of course, I'm putting my money on "linux", too, but you can never just assume things...

Re:Math

[axxackall]

RTFA:

First paragraph: Japan plans to spend about 1 billion yen (US$8.3 million) funding Asian software developers working on the open-source Linux operating system for consumer electronics goods

...

Last paragraph: In December, Sony Corp (news - web sites). and Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., both major Japanese electronics makers, said they will jointly develop a Linux-based system for digital consumer electronics.

And no even single mentioning of BSD.

My friend from Japan told me once, if they take OSS they prefer Linux and PostgreSQL, not BSD and not MySQL. Japan engineers do not work with dead software.

Why?

[loknor]

" Japan plans to spend about 1 billion yen (US$8.3 million) funding Asian software developers working on the open-source Linux "

Why do that when you can just pull a Castle and steal it.... :-)

Re:Why?

[jc42]

Heh; cute.

But seriously, it can be difficult to actually steal Open Source software. It's possible, of course. What you have to do is make your own "derived work" version of the software, and sell that for profit without accompanying source code.

This is something a corporation might well do, but how likely is any government agency to do such a thing? Anyone have numbers on how many governments are in the business of selling software for profit?

Re:Why?

[chromatic]

"Profit" and "sell" don't necessarily have anything to do with it. Distributing your derived work without at least offering the accompanying source code is the only way to steal it.

The Japanese government, not Japan

[palfreman]

It is the Japaese government that is spending the money, not "Japan". This may seem off-topic, but a country is different from its government. The amount Japan spends on Linux would be all the money all Japanese people and companies spend on Linux and Linux related things, not what the government did there. Governments are just another organisation and for most countries the main source of their problems.

Re:The Japanese government, not Japan

[Henry V .009]

You've come square up against what I like to call "the one big person" theory of foreign states. Anything that is both very complex and very unfamiliar is treated as one big person: France is a big crybaby. Canada is a wimp. Israel is just one big Holocaust survivor. America is arrogant. On and on. Sure the sterotypes might sometimes contribute some pithy insight, but once they begin to suck up all debate nothing constructive ever gets said again. It is fundamentally impossible to sum up a complex system in this manner. It leads to all sorts of problems. Not that this mode of thinking will ever go away, mind you.

Actually, I think the whole 'complex entity = person" idea is something very human, and applies to all sorts of things beyond foreign countries. Businesses, cultural groups, one's own government, all of them treated like this. Its the human mind's way of dealing I suppose. And to a degree, maybe it even makes sense. The individual human is one of the most complex systems on this planet. Therefore we try to model other complex systems with that model.

Re:The Japanese government, not Japan

[csguy314]

a country is different from its government

It most certainly is. But a gov't is elected (in democratic systems anyway). And where, pray tell, does the gov't get it's money?

Re:The Japanese government, not Japan

[palfreman]

It takes its money from people who live there by force. So what if the government where you live is elected - I didn't vote for them, I hate almost everything they do (they in my case being the "British" government and the warmongering fool who runs it), and if I don't pay up they really would arrest me and send me to jail.

Just as I wouldn't want to be lumped in with a bunch of techno-illiterate nutcases in London, I'm sure there are plenty of people in Japan who wouldn't like to be associated with what their government does.

Re:The Japanese government, not Japan

[firewrought]

Its the human mind's way of dealing I suppose...

And people do the same thing with the concept of "God"... even though the details vary drastically, most cultures have a mythology that posits a source of universal intention: something or someone that controls natural events (weather, harvest, childbirth, astronomical bodies, etc.) and interacts with individual human lives (by providing comfort, discipline, special powers, spirtual growth, second chances, forgiveness, condemation, tests and trials, equalizing opportunities, purpose and meaning, spouse and family, absolute morality, eternal security, etc.). The fact that these things are (or will be) explainable through the lenses of natural and cognitive science hasn't done much to convince people that there's no God mediating their reality. It's as if we have to attribute agency (in the AI sense of the term) to events that are personally significant. All these uncontrolled externals are wrapped up into "God".

But, to reply to the parent post, there are more practical reasons for making the "complex entity"==>"person" simplification. When we say "France opposses war with Iraq", it's pretty accurate, because we get the impression that (1) the official government posture and (2) the general sentiment of the French population do not want to see a war. We have no way of characterizing it in a finer manner than that... we don't have a list of x million French who oppose war and the y million French who endorse it, so we use the label "France" to tag the relevant input (in this case, the relevant input is "political pressure", but if we were watching a news broadcast about organized protest against the rapid expansion of metropolitan Paris, than we might categorize the input as "environmentalist").

I'm sure there are a thousand interesting AI and cogsci theories for explaining or expressing this... the human brain is truly incredible, but it make broad, obvious machine-like mistakes too.

Re:The Japanese government, not Japan

[mickwd]

"It takes its money from people who live there by force. So what if the government where you live is elected - I didn't vote for them"

Find one country on this planet that doesn't tax its population.

Jesus, some people want everything handed to them on a plate, while giving fuck all in return.

Re:The Japanese government, not Japan

[Rysc]

By the same token, "America opposes war with Iraq" I doubt you could get a majority for it, at the least, and I recall a recent stat showing that only 20% were for it.

Re:The Japanese government, not Japan

[IndependentVik]

The number of people in the US who are for the war varies dramatically depending on how the question is phrased. If they're asked whether they support military action in Iraq in general, the number is well above 50 percent. Asked if they're for the war even without UN approval, and the number drops down well below 50 percent.

This is just one more reason why polls are fscking worthless and the idiot politicians on both sides of the aisle who live by them are less than fscking worthless.

Re:The Japanese government, not Japan

[palfreman]

Find one country on this planet that doesn't tax its population.

Dubai certainly has no taxation system, as AKAIK do the other Emitates, Saudia Arabia and Kuwait. Absolute monarchies do not generally tax.

Jesus, some people want everything handed to them on a plate, while giving fuck all in return.

What exactly am I getting on a plate, and why should I give whoever reckons they're giving it to me any more than "fuck all", considering I didn't want it anyway? And don't give me any of that "protection from being thrown in jail" crap, that's just the logic of the protection racket.

Re:The Japanese government, not Japan

[mickwd]

"Dubai certainly has no taxation system, as AKAIK do the other Emitates, Saudia Arabia and Kuwait"

Well that's only because they're so rich because of their vast oil reserves, isn't it ? Not exactly a normal situation. Nothing to do with being absolute monarchies (unless you count the fact that the wealth of those countries helps prevent large-scale political discontent from overthrowing the monarchy).

And if you look back in history, I think you'll find that absolute monarchies have been rather keen on raising taxes.

"What exactly am I getting on a plate, and why should I give whoever reckons they're giving it to me any more than "fuck all""

What about the education that taught you to read and write ? What about the healthcare system which provided for you and your parents when you were born and grew up ? And so on and so on.....

Re:The Japanese government, not Japan

[Rysc]

A little blind ideology will go a long way. That's why the republicans are winning: Their competition are wishy-washy and commited to polls, whereas they are willing to stand for their demented and religiously-induced ideas. They have passion and a SLIGHT disregard for statistics, so they win.

Interesting choice of dates..

[Edball]

"Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry official Shuichi Tashiro said the subsidies will be doled out next fiscal year, which begins April 1."

Hmmmm....

Re:Interesting choice of dates..

[msgmonkey]

As far as I am aware, the fiscal year is always 365 days long so it begins on different days every year.

Re:Interesting choice of dates..

[Tenebrious1]

"Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry official Shuichi Tashiro said the subsidies will be doled out next fiscal year, which begins April 1."

Many Japanese companies end their Fiscal year on March 31st, which means their First quarter begins April 1st. It's not at all uncommon in Japan, nor in the US. Macromedia is one US company I can think of off the top of my head. I think it's for tax purposes, but it's been a long time since I took business 101...

Re:Interesting choice of dates..

[jumpingfred]

I would just like to point out that the parent post is totally and completely wrong. Thank you.

Oh boy! $450k!

[occamboy]

At the risk of being obvious...

Linux is a stupendous 'operating system for consumer electronics goods' -- as an engineer who's developed embedded systems, I think that Linux is great for this purpose. For example, Tivo, which is Linux-based, is the greatest consumer electronic item of all time.

But $450k? Gee, what a commitment! That's like 2-3 full time people if you include overhead.

developers, developers, developers...

[pubjames]

This kind of thing must be extremely worrying to Microsoft. All up all the developers working for governments around the world, and I bet there are about ten times as many as work for Microsoft. It's probably even more than that if you think about it.

refrigerator root

[scrotch]

Personally, I would love to be able to ssh into my refrigerator and poke around without having to get up and go all the way to the kitchen...

And imagine how cool you'll be with sendmail running on your air conditioner.

Re:refrigerator root

[Jucius Maximus]

"Personally, I would love to be able to ssh into my refrigerator and poke around without having to get up and go all the way to the kitchen... And imagine how cool you'll be with sendmail running on your air conditioner."

These things have real applications. If you were at the grocery store and wanted to know if you neede milk, you can connect to the fridge and check the inventory. I have actually seen a concepy fridge with a barcode scanner, webcam, web server and some other gadgets built into it.

As to the air conditioner, you could send it an e-mail before you get home or ssh into it to turn it on so the house will not be stinking hot.

Re:refrigerator root

[BroncoInCalifornia]

My Tivo (a Linux appliance) sometimes has mail for me!

WOOHOO! GUNDAM!

[macshune]

When they *finally* get around to getting that Gundam operational, it will run Linux!!!!!

Here's the REAL question

[deanj]

The real question is, will THESE folks violate the GPL in products?

Previous story here is on a company that did that. If Japan's encouraging the use of open source (and presumably GPL), what do they ship if they, for example, do an embedded linux port for a microwave? Do they ship a CD with the code with the microwave?

Geeze, if they did that, half the country would use the thing as the coaster, 49 percent would try and mu-wave the thing, and 1 percent (well, less...go with the idea here) would be left figuring how to do cool hacks on it.

Re:Here's the REAL question

[Anonymous Coward]

if they, for example, do an embedded linux port for a microwave? Do they ship a CD with the code with the microwave?

Lots of companies are already shipping products with embedded linux in it. You dont have to ship the code with the microwave. You can to make it available on a website.

Re:Here's the REAL question

[deanj]

yeah, but does EVERY company put that stuff on the websites? I'll bet they don't.

Re:Here's the REAL question

[Anonymous Coward]

>> The real question is, will THESE folks violate the GPL in products?

Has the GPL ever been tested in a court of law? And what about a potential international court? Couldn't Japan just essentially give the Japanese equilavelant of the middle finger to the FSF? It might be polite (since they really are not as vulgar as most westerners in that sense), but they could still do it.

I would if I was a big, bad corporation. Oh wait, isn't that personifying the corporation, like another poster mentioned?

Re:Here's the REAL question

[JoeBuck]

The best way for an embedded systems company to satisfy the GPL is simply to include the required written offer, good for three years, with the product: if you really want the source code, you could either download it from the web site, or send enough money to cover the company's costs (including labor costs) for shipping you a CD.

Re:Here's the REAL question

[kenthorvath]

Do you have to include the code with the hardware that is running the software? I thought that you only have to include the source if you distribute the software. (I.E. download the binaries, etc...) The linux source code is freely availabe many places anyhow, if they don't make any modifications, do they still have to produce the source? This is too confusing - ARGGHHHHH!

Re:Here's the REAL question

[Bronster]

what do they ship if they, for example, do an embedded linux port for a microwave? Do they ship a CD with the code with the microwave?

Um, you have read the GPL right? Section 3 as follows:

3.You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

a. Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

b. Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

c. Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)

You will notice what section 3 (b) says. All they need is a little slip of paper or note at the back of the manual saying "This product contain GNU Opensource program. Send mail Address MicrowaveCompany Tokyo for source get. Have nice day."

(excuse my engrish)

Re:Here's the REAL question

[Gordonjcp]

Doesn't have to be on the website. I've sold, for real money, embedded systems that run modified versions of Linux. I don't make the source available for download, and I don't give the source away with the kit. I *could* sell the source code, but I don't do that either. If you want the source, you come round to my house and I'll burn it onto a CD for you.

Since the embedded stuff was only a very short run, you're unlikely to ever see it. But if you do, and you want the source, email me and ask.

Re:Here's the REAL question

[presearch]

If they use Linux as the base OS and then write an application that runs the microwave but don't do any mods to the OS,
isn't it true that they don't have to make the source to the microwave app available?

Someone please explain this.

Re:Here's the REAL question

[Iffy Bonzoolie]

They don't have to. They only need to provide it, by request, to people they have distributed it to, in order to be in compliance with the GPL. And they can charge for the media, too. The public internet is just an easy way to do that for GPL products that are ALSO free-as-in-beer.

-If

Re:whoa there pilgrim

[Lockjaw]

According to the Bill Gates Net Worth Page they could hire him for over two hours with that kind of money...

Makes perfect sense.

[amberspry]

Many of the small devices that have any type of computing power run on Linux or proprietary software. Seeing as how open source software is already out there and developed to the point of using without as much modification, it is much cheaper that development from scratch. Since they do have such a high piracy rate they don't have to worry as much about licensing and other legal complications.

As far as the government computers all they have to worry about is the software that runs on top of the OS, in fact most of the applications they would need access to are already available in one form or another. They can also get around any trouble from Microsoft. Even though they are probably not loosing any sleep over it now.

Re:Makes perfect sense.

[Pharmboy]

Many of the small devices that have any type of computing power run on Linux or proprietary software. Seeing as how open source software is already out there and developed to the point of using without as much modification, it is much cheaper that development from scratch. Since they do have such a high piracy rate they don't have to worry as much about licensing and other legal complications.

Not to be picky, but Linux DOES have a license to deal with, the GNU/GPL. This means that their software would have to be open source as well.

If they wanted to create a "*nix like" OS to power their gadgets, but didn't want to open up their software for others to look at (perhaps to hide really sloppy code), they may be looking more into BSD. There also remains the chance that some company (probably small) will end up using Linux in a device, and not releasing their code, resulting in a lawsuit from Linus. Odds are, this is more of a "when" than a "if".

Re:Makes perfect sense.

[ahaning]

This means that their software would have to be open source as well.

No, it doesn't. Where's TiVo's source? We don't have it [legally].

You're allowed to write software that works on Linux, but which isn't GPL. You're even allowed to write modules for Linux that aren't GPL (see the nVidia drivers).

Basically, even though it runs on Linux, it doesn't have to be GPL.

Now, if they modified some GPL source and sold/included the binaries, then they'd have to give you the source, as well, if you bought the product. You might even have to buy it (!!!!!) But, then if you bought it for, say US$1.5M, you could give it to your friends for free or sell it for US$3M. In any case, you'd have to give the other person the same rights to sell or distribute or change the sources as you had.

Re:Makes perfect sense.

[LinuxHam]

This means that their software would have to be open source as well

Not to be picky, but not all software that runs on Linux has to be Open Source. You have a fairly low UID, so I would normally lean towards giving you the benefit of the doubt. A friend once asked me how IBM was allowed to charge $30k for DB2 for Linux, because he too thought that all software that runs on Linux has to be released as Open Source. I know the woman who was until recently the #3 Linux guru in IBM, and I've asked her about how our software groups toes the line to release closed source software in Linux. Very interesting conversation to have, if you can find someone to have it with who knows their shyte.

Re:Makes perfect sense.

[Pharmboy]

Not to be picky, but not all software that runs on Linux has to be Open Source.

You are correct. Perhaps I muddled the point a bit. When I refered to running their "gadgets" I meant using Linux proper, the kernel, not Linux/GNU as a group of software.

My point was that if they write software that runs the device (my sloppy way of saying it has an OS that is Linux Kernel based) then they would be obligated to open the source.

There is an article on /. right now about a company that just did that, is up to be sued. Ironic timing. I read it one minute after posting and wished I could have linked to it, since it was exactly what I was talking about. Read it here

You have a fairly low UID, so I would normally lean towards giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks for vote of confidence, but as you know a low UID is like a college degree. Just because someone has one, doesnt mean they are smart :-)

My Clie will be running Linux soon!

[erroneus]

I can hardly wait! Now not only are we seeing various countries and governments using OSS, now we actually have backing. Okay, so maybe it's a very small amount of money in the grand scheme of things, but consider that this money goes directly (more or less) into the pockets of the people actually doing the work and not into vast amounts of overhead or to expiring license fees or any other such nonsense. An equal-sized fund given to Microsoft to create a project would buy far less... (for that matter, could end in the demise of the investor... don't mess with Microsoft or they'll find a way to cheat you in the end -- remember the cell phone company?)

I agree this is important--very important. And just MAYBE I can get the same level of Japanese lanugage functionality out of Linux that I do out of Microsoft products.

I hope Japan gets more than it paid for inspiring them and others to invest more into Linux in order to make more things happen.

On another note: Gotta love that RMS who has managed to create a way to keep people and companies from abusing free software. BSD gave the world a pretty decent TCP/IP implementation and Microsoft thanks them heartily. I hope it all remains as OSS and benefits the world -- I really *DO* want world peace.

Re: My Clie will be running Linux soon!

[Black Parrot]

> I can hardly wait!

Oh, do wait! In a few more years personal vibrators will run Linux, and girls will invite geeks over to help troubleshoot their software problems.

This should be good news, but...

[Sheetrock]

I'm not particularly happy living under our current operating system monopoly, but this article only bolsters my concern that we're on the brink of creating a new one.

Could the adoption of Linux go too quickly and be too widespread?

I know it seems a bit funny now, as it's still not very useful as a desktop environment and is going head-to-head with arguably better server software, but I think there's a menace lurking beneath the surface: companies may soon get to the point where they -expect- software to be produced for free. It's a bit ironic, I think, that the products of our success at programmers are in the position to undermine our ability to survive in our careers.

Already, programming jobs are being exported to places where they can be done almost for free. I'm starting to wonder if Linux and other open source projects are choking off what remains of our software economy. Is it too farfetched to think that some restrictions need to be put into place to protect workers?

Re:This should be good news, but...

[amberspry]

It still is. People expected the Internet to be free forever, yet there are still many sites that cost money. Free is generally regarded as inferior compared to a similar product that costs money. As long as there are enough things that cost money or enough companies that agree something should cost money there will always be a segment of the population that sees a perceived value and will shell out the bucks.

Just think you can download Linux for free, yet people still pay for the CD. Why? There is an additional value perceived or real that comes with the product. If enough people are willing to pay then companies may continue to charge for their product.

Re:This should be good news, but...

[webengr]

This sort of begs the question, "should there even be such a thing as a software economy?" Perhaps software belongs under the heading "service industry."

[Oooohhh, I'm gonna get flamed for this. Where did I put those asbestos boxers?]

Re:This should be good news, but...

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Already, programming jobs are being exported to places where they can be done almost for free. I'm starting to wonder if Linux and other open source projects are choking off what remains of our software economy. Is it too farfetched to think that some restrictions need to be put into place to protect workers?

This is a non-sequitor. Jobs HAVE moved overseas, and it doesn't matter whether the software is Open Source or not.

Frankly software should be free. We don't charge for understanding algebra, chemical processes have been known for years, and I don't recall paying royalties for understanding the history of WWII.

It is only in the 20th century that we have regarded ideas as any kind of property. If you don't believe me that the open exchange of ideas speeds progress, look at how in a little under 200 years Chemistry CAN now turn lead into gold. (Granted, if you simply shoot protons into lead atoms you will end up with a radioactive isotope of gold, but I digress.)

Alchemists tried for thousands of years, each toiling in secret. They coveted their formulas, and each took them to the grave. I don't recall any one of them being particularly rich at the end either.

Re:This should be good news, but...

[Beowabbit]

I'm not particularly happy living under our current operating system monopoly, but this article only bolsters my concern that we're on the brink of creating a new one.

I don't have much to contribute about your other points, but I wanted to point out that a "monopoly" based on a GPL'ed operating system would be a very different thing that a monopoly based on a closed-source operating system, because no one entity would have a monopoly on the code itself.

Microsoft has a huge amount of leverage they can use by being the people who implement de-facto standards, and not disclosing them to their competitors. While Microsoft encourages other vendors to develop for Windows, and to some extent cooperates with hardware vendors in setting standards, it's not a level playing field. If you have an interesting widget you want to sell, and Microsoft doesn't like you, they can just guarantee that your widget doesn't work under windows (or more likely, subtly break things so that your widget doesn't work well). I can't easily figure out what they've done without their cooperation (and depending how they've done it, I might need extremely well-paid lawyers just to feel safe trying).

If a GPL'ed operating system were in the same position of market domination and $linux_vendor tried to prevent my widget working with their OS, and assuming they were complying with the GPL, I could say, "Why would you want to buy a Linux from $linux_vendor, when I'll ship you a Linux for free with my $59.95 widget that is completely compatible with $linux_vendor's version, except that it works with my widget and I've folded in these hundred and fifty bug fixes and it runs a little faster?" (The latter two advantages being just because I was releasing my version a few weeks after $linux_vendor released their version.)

(In theory, the same sort of hidden de-facto-standard torpedo could happen with a fork of a BSD-licensed OS as does with Windows, but I think it would be considerably less likely as long as no one proprietary fork got a huge market advantage.)

Re:This should be good news, but...

[Dirtside]

Is it too farfetched to think that some restrictions need to be put into place to protect workers?

Maybe this will be a bit too vociferous a denial of this idea, but allow me to be the first to say, HELL FUCKING NO. "Protecting" jobs by limiting technological progress is an absolutely horrible idea. The only time it's justified is if the "progress" would make things worse than the protection -- and that isn't the case, here. (Specifically, in this case, it's about "protecting" Americans' jobs versus the jobs of overseas labor.)

At worst, U.S. programmers may have to become more competitive -- or find other fields to work in. Just because the tech field pays a lot now doesn't mean it always will, and anyone who forgets that fact isn't going to get a lot of sympathy if the edifice crumbles.

Re:This should be good news, but...

[El Cubano]

I have to say that I still think it is good news. Even if the adoption of Linux were "too widespread," as you put it, there would be dozens (if not hundreds) of companies cropping up to offer services, improvements and what-have-you. With people willing to pay if they see it as value-added (like paying RedHat for priority access to their servers, for example).

If anything, this will serve to generate competition where the best products survive. As you point out, we are currently under an OS monopoly, but this would occur under Linux only if every major gov't and corporate entity that adopted chose a distro from the same company (highly unlikely).

In the end this is and will remain a good thing because no one company will ever be able to monopolize Linux. There is too much competition already for that to happen.

Re:This should be good news, but...

[rtscts]

How fast Linux grows depends on how fast old school vendors drop their prices. People aren't going to pay a hefty premium for The Best when close enough is good enough for Free.

Re:This should be good news, but...

[An Onerous Coward]

If you read "The Cathedral and the Bazaar," ESR covers this issue in pretty good detail. His counterarguments basically boil down to:

1) Something like eighty percent of software development is done for embedded devices, specialized software for a single company, and other similar jobs. These things will not go away.

2) By having quality open source, it saves developers from having to re-invent the same systems over and over again, freeing up development time for doing fundamentally new and innovative things.

There were other arguments, which I can't give off the top of my head. He had me convinced, but YMMV.

Re:This should be good news, but...

[Kashif Shaikh]

You bring up a valid point, but remember this: if a company can only afford to hire a single person, then re-using existing free software components and having one guy maintain it is a lot cheaper than hiring a whole team. Cheaper costs == companies stays alive longer == profit == more jobs later on.

Bringing open source software to the countries levels the playing field so that the small fish can compete with the big fish.

Re:This should be good news, but...

[HerbieStone]

I'm with you there. Change is ahead. Changes make people affraid.

companies may soon get to the point where they -expect- software to be produced for free. [...]

There is a big difference between free software and to produce software for free. So for the most parts OSS is produce by people in their spare time. Still others get paid to produce OSS. Today companies sell software, tomorrow companies will give their software away and sell services.

Or if you look at it from the programmers point of view: If I would give everyone my software I produce at work, nothing would change. I'm created the stuff and know best how to put it work, how to maintain it, how to change it. If there would be someone who knows it better than me or someone who does it for less money, then its economie again.

Re:This should be good news, but...

[lml]

Frankly software should be free. We don't charge for understanding algebra, chemical processes have been known for years, and I don't recall paying royalties for understanding the history of WWII.

It is only in the 20th century that we have regarded ideas as any kind of property. If you don't believe me that the open exchange of ideas speeds progress, look at how in a little under 200 years Chemistry CAN now turn lead into gold. (Granted, if you simply shoot protons into lead atoms you will end up with a radioactive isotope of gold, but I digress.)

Wouldn't this line of reasoning then lead to that everything that now has a marginal cost of 0, like music and books (in their digital form) should be free? One thing is to argue that you should have the right to see the code for all the software (which I don't agree with), other is to argue that all software should be "free" (I'm really not sure if this is free as in beer or free as in the FSF definition of free, I suppose it's the later) which is even more far fetched.
It is however a moot point because it will never happen, there might be lots of free (in whatever free) software but for all software to be free would require a major change in our socio-economical structure.

I believe that this reasoning that every idea should be instantly free is dangerous and probably comes from people that never studied economy or haven't really tought about the far fetched consequences of this line of tought. I don't claim I know them, but it's certainly not so black and white as open exchange of ideas for everyone. We don't live in a beautiful world where the majority of people work for the good of the whole but for their own benefit and that's one of the basic premises our economic model is based on. That's what gives us affordable cars, cell phones and *gasp* computers!

That being said I think Open Source and open standards are wonderful.

Re:This should be good news, but...

[Xtifr]

I'm not particularly happy living under our current operating system monopoly, but this article only bolsters my concern that we're on the brink of creating a new one.

A monopoly, in and of itself, is not a bad thing.; in fact, in many cases, it can be a good thing. What's bad is when a company abuses its monopoly position to lock out competition, lock in customers, and leverage new markets. None of this is really possible with Linux, since it's an open system, and anyone can create their own derivative products to compete with the existing ones.

I think, that the products of our success at programmers are in the position to undermine our ability to survive in our careers.

If your survival as a programmer is based on reinventing the wheel over and over, then maybe you don't deserve success. I know that as a programmer myself, I relish the opportunity to focus on the needs of my customers, rather than reinventing wheels because the existing wheels on the market a) can't legally be modified to work the way they're needed in a certain case, or b) have license restrictions that prevent them from being as fully deployed as they need to be.

Many years ago, I got a contract to write a quicksort routine. Now quicksort is part of the standard C library. Does it bother me that I no longer have the opportunity to write and sell quicksorts? Hardly! In fact, I'm overjoyed.

Press Release

[$$$$$exyGal]

Business - AP World Business

Microsoft Buys Japan
Wed Feb 5, 03:53 PM PT

Microsoft plans to spend about 1 billion dollars (120 billion Yen) funding Japan in its entirety, says Bill Gates, Wednesday.

Gates' plans on purchasing the country at the end of fiscal 2004, but he's not sure what to do with it. Industry pundits predict that Japan will go the way of WebTV and many other companies/countries purchased by Microsoft.

"I like Japan", says Gates, "they really are good at science". Later, Gates was seen snickering.

--naked

Re:Press Release

[pubjames]

Microsoft plans to spend about 1 billion dollars (120 billion Yen) funding Japan in its entirety, says Bill Gates, Wednesday.

I know many Americans have a distorted view of the world, but this is streaching things a bit far.

Japan is a massive economy, even though it's currently in recession. It is also the worlds largest creditor - more so than the USA, and is home to some of the worlds largest banks. So thankfully there are a few things in the world that Bill Gates can't buy!

Re:Press Release

[Tingler]

Joke (n)

Pronunciation: 'jOk
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin jocus; perhaps akin to Old High German gehan to say, Sanskrit yAcati he asks
Date: 1670
1 a : something said or done to provoke laughter; especially : a brief oral narrative with a climactic humorous twist b (1) : the humorous or ridiculous element in something (2) : an instance of jesting : KIDDING c : PRACTICAL JOKE d : LAUGHINGSTOCK
2 : something not to be taken seriously : a trifling matter -- often used in negative construction

Re:Press Release

[archen]

Business - AP World Business

Microsoft Sells Japan
Wed Feb 5, 04:44 PM PT

In other strange news Microsoft sells Japan less than an hour after buying it. Sources allege that the push to sell Japan came after it was pointed out that Tokyo had the biggest bug of all: Godzilla.

Bill Gates was quoted as saying: "It sounds like that other browser thing I heard about. But even more shocking is that Godzilla is a bigger bug than Windows".

Re:Press Release

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Now according to the theory of marketing, an ideal product fulfills an existing demand. The marketer simply acts as way of communicating between buyers and sellers.

Given how much in the way of resources Microsoft devotes to marketing, does anyone have illusions of it being an ideal product?

Re:Press Release

[JoeBuck]

With $1 billion, Microsoft might be able to buy some real estate in Tokyo, but that's about it.

Re:Press Release

[ocelotbob]

I think you have things a bit mixed up. Godzilla is not a bug. Godzilla is a lizard. If you want a bug in Japan, you must look here. Though some may argue that that's not a bug, but rather a security feature.

Re:Press Release

[flacco]

I know many Americans have a distorted view of the world, but this is streaching things a bit far.

Yeah, thank god there is someone with crystal-clear perception and a brilliant intellect, untainted by stereotypes, to straighten us out.

Re:Press Release

[evilWurst]

Part of the reason it's such a large creditor is that Japanese banks have made a lot of bad loans, which is part of why they've been in a recession for so long.

Re:Press Release

[Killer Napkin]

So thankfully there are a few things in the world that Bill Gates can't buy!

But for everything else, there's Mastercard.

Re: Press Release

[Black Parrot]

> So thankfully there are a few things in the world that Bill Gates can't buy!

As in "Japan's not done until Linux won't run?"

Re:Press Release

[g4dget]

Gates' plans on purchasing the country [Japan] at the end of fiscal 2004, but he's not sure what to do with it.

Well, we already knew that Gates has some odd misconceptions about the world and is a bit too full of himself. By the size of Japan's annual government budget (around $750bn), even Gates's wealth is kind of small. The entire Japanese GDP is about $3500bn.

Re:Press Release

[Melantha_Bacchae]

archen wrote:

> In other strange news Microsoft sells Japan less than an
> hour after buying it. Sources allege that the push to sell
> Japan came after it was pointed out that Tokyo had the
> biggest bug of all: Godzilla.
>
> Bill Gates was quoted as saying: "It sounds like that other
> browser thing I heard about. But even more shocking is
> that Godzilla is a bigger bug than Windows".

The world's first computer bug was actually a moth. Japan has one whale of a moth: her sacred majesty, Mothra, the Queen of Monsters, Goddess of the Sun, and Forever Friend of Apple.

His sacred majesty, Godzilla, Dreaded God of the Atom, King of Monsters, and the world's biggest "switcher" (1993), is a mutated dinosaur and a god, not a bug. He does, however, hate Microsoft (who guest starred as the monster villain of "Godzilla 2000 Millennium"). Selling Japan to Microsoft around his 50th anniversary (Nov. 3, 2004) is about the fastest way to get Redmond nuked.

Actually, there might be an even faster way. Take his all-time best-ever video game, add in his enemy (Mechagodzilla) from his current movie, improve the game a bit, and put it out on Microsoft's evil X-box. When Goji gets done with his movie run, and latest round of Japanese nuclear plant "pranks", somebody's gonna be in trouble! :b

To Microsoft:
The crown is not yours.
Footsteps drum a dirge of doom
By nuclear rage!

The world's great hero,
Dreaded God and Monster King,
Millennium ends.

Re:Press Release

[mbourgon]

I'm personally wondering when he'll be making a personal visit to Japan.

Re:Press Release

[Repugnant_Shit]

You know, I"ve read a lot of crazy things on slashdot, but...DAMN ;)

Re:Press Release

[Dave2 Wickham]

C'mon! Someone mod this up!

Next-Gen?

[theCat]

OK, let's think about this a moment. The current generation of networks and servers already hinges largely on Unix and Unix-like things (GNU/Linux). Linux is free, and many point out that Linux is mostly replacing Unix boxen at the moment.

Ipso facto, GNU/Linux will probably be a big part of the "next-generation" platform, whatever the foosh that actually refers to in practice.

But I guess what is interesting here is that they are broadcasting this "truth" and not, oh for example, signing up on some zany M$ initiative-of-the-week.

Someone actually pointed out in an earlier post (since modded into oblivion I can assume) that Asia pirates all their software so la-de-da. Which misses the point that Asia pirating software was always a good thing for the proprietary products. India is so awash in black market copies of Windows that they are practically addicts now, and still M$ gives them buckets of cash "donations" as soon as someone over there mumbles "Linux rulez" in his sleep.

Is it just me?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or is Japan producing/subsidizing everything that geeks like?

I ain't falling for this again ...

[RavinDave]

"Japan is betting 50 million yen ($450k US) that the next-generation of high-tech products and computer networks will rely on open-source software. ... "

Last time I read a headline about Japan trying to predict the future computer trends, I tossed out my "C" books and wasted 6 months learning PROLOG.

Re:Oh boy! $450k!

[EvilTwinSkippy]

It's only a fleshwound, er, study.

Next Generation?

[PetWolverine]

Japan is betting...that the next-generation of high-tech products and computer networks will rely on open-source software.

The next generation?

As far as networks: The Internet is the most important network that I can think of, and what does it run on? Apache is the main Web server; I run a mail server with Qpopper and sendmail, of which the former is open source and the latter is at least free (is it open source? I don't even know); for the FTP part of serving, you can choose from Pure-FTPd, Pro-FTPd, wu-ftpd, or whatever else. "High-tech computer networks" of this generation already run on OSS.

As for products: There's a little more room for improvement here, but my PowerMac G4 is pretty damned high-tech, and while the GUI is closed, the core OS, Darwin, is open-source. And unlike Linux nerds who will say they have such-and-such a high tech system that's running OSS, mine came like this--right out of the box--and is a product targeted at, and sold mainly to, non-nerd consumers.

It used to be that I used very little software I paid for because I pirated everything; now I use very little software I paid for because it's free anyway, and for a substantial part of that software the source is available if I want it. Open source isn't a bet pertaining to the next generation, it's here already.

Re:Next Generation?

[SN74S181]

The Internet is the most important network that I can think of,

There are so many networks more important than 'The Internet' that I can't start to count them.

There are many segments to the IT market. The Internet is actually fairly trivial when it comes down to it. It matters, but it doesn't keep the lights going, it doesn't operate hospital facilitys or power plants. And so on.

Re:Next Generation?

[Fulcrum of Evil]

As far as networks: The Internet is the most important network that I can think of, and what does it run on?

Well, it's the biggest, and it runs on Cisco, Bay , and Juniper, all communicating through the black magic that is BGP.

Re:Next Generation?

[PetWolverine]

Okay, clearly I'm ignorant in a lot of this area. What is BGP?

And while I know that Cisco is a database server (right?), what are Bay and Juniper?

This is honest-to-goodness curiosity and lack of information here. Just wanted to clarify since lots of times on /. ignorance (and complacence with ignorance) masquerades as such.

Re:Next Generation?

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Routers. Nothing but routers. I'm not familiar with Cisco as a DB, but the company has revenue and market cap comparable to MS, so I thought everybody knew who they were.

BGP - Border Gateway Protocol. A mysticla (I'm not kidding) protocol that governs routing between connected autonomous networks. The porotocol is described in detail in various places, but the implementation of it is complex and limited mostly to those who have to handle it, which isn't a whole lot of people.

Re:Oh boy! $450k!

[OECD]

But $450k? Gee, what a commitment! That's like 2-3 full time people if you include overhead.

If I read it right, that's the amount for a study about moving Japanese gov't computers to Linux. They're just going to reassign some suits. (Still, it's probably a bargain by U.S. standards!)

The Open Source War : Part 10 The Final Chapter

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Diary,

I awoke today to see that all the systems in the world were running open source. M$'s beastly OS was finally outdone. I threw off my robe and danced on my front lawn, much to the surprise of my neighbors, a little happy dance. Much to my surprise, I came back inside to hear about M$ marketing a new technology that had nothing to do with computers, and sure enough, it was taking hold.

So in conclusion, dear Diary, I think M$ will be around for a long time in many of our daily lives. If it's not that pesky 0S it's going to be something. I have a 50' length of rope in the garage and a little chair to stand on, I think .. wait what's that? No! No! I........

worth $450k is it?

[yaiba]

well $450k is big enough to show that they're serious about the open source movement... dont think about how big or small they're betting on.. it's the thought that counts

Japanese Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft, concerned about Japan's move towards Linux, visits government executives with the hopes of swaying their decision.

Microsoft Exec: We're a bit worried that you guys are moving away from Windows.

Japanese president: There is nothing to worry about! We in Japan are all in awe of your large penis!

Microsoft Exec: What?!

Japanese president: You see, Japanese penis is so small!

Japanese vice-president: So small!

Japanese president: You Americans have such humungous-bungus penis!

Microsoft Execs: Well... that's true!

Japanese vice-president: Oh, such, a nice, big penis, American!

Japanese president: What can we possibly do with such small penis? We cannot take over your operating system with programmers of such masterdonic penis!

Microsoft Execs: Well, you've got a point there! That settles that! We're sorry for taking your time, gentlemen!

Japanese president: Oh, no! Thank you! Another chance to be in same room with big American penis!

Microsoft Execs (leaving): Nice guys!

... later ...

TV announcer: And now, for a special announcement from the President of the United States.

George Bush: My fellow Americans, I wish to address the concerns many of us have over the growing number of Japanese Linux distributions in America's IT sector. The new Japanese Emperor Linus Hirohito has made our own children into programmers who will soon launch a DDOS attack against American military networks at Pearl Harbour. However, I spoke with Mr. Hirohito this morning and he assured me that I have a very large penis! He said it was dinosauric, and absolutely dwarfed his penis which he assured me was nearly microscopic in size. My penis, he said, was most likely one of the biggest on the planet. I applaud Mr. Hirohito in his honest. Thank you.

Re:Japanese Linux

[Billly Gates]

This was modded up because.... ?

Re:Japanese Linux

[Pharmboy]

Japanese president: Oh, no! Thank you! Another chance to be in same room with big American penis!

Thank you. Thats all, just thank you.

And if anyone doesn't get it, then you get out too much.

Re:Japanese Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, that was the funniest comment I've seen all day. That's my favorite episode of south park. Just seeing the south park boys going around chanting "Owatta beikoku (down with america)" was so damn funny. And the scene with Garrison-san and hat-san in class! It doesn't get much better than that.

Re:Japanese Linux

[mrscorpio]

http://www.mrhatshellhole.com/scripts/310.htm

Chris

Re:Japanese Linux

[The J Kid]

Ah, but even more interessting, transcipt of Emperor Hirohito and George Bush's meeting:

Emperor Hirohito: There is nothing to worry about! We in Japan are all in awe of your large penis!

George Bush: Me have big penis? That's unpossible!

topic -1 redundant;

[collapser]

as I'm writing this from my zanussi-debian refridgerator.

Re:topic -1 redundant;

[Graspee_Leemoor]

just test is slash is broken for the new "do not call list" story or all of them. It lets you submit comments but then doesn't show them. Of course it's a Micheal story- remember when he had it set up so only his friends could reply?

graspee

Re:Oh boy! $450k!

[nsandver-work]

It says right in the article (did you read it?) that "Japan plans to spend about 1 billion yen (US$8.3 million) funding Asian software developers working on the open-source Linux operating system for consumer electronics goods, an official said Wednesday." That is a sizable commitment.

The $450k figure in the article comes from this: " Tokyo has already budgeted 50 million yen (US$416,000) for next fiscal year to study the possibility of switching government computers to an open-source operating system." Note, that's the city of Tokyo, not the Japanese government.

Read the article.

Re:Oh boy! $450k!

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the article.

Japan plans to spend about 1 billion yen (US$8.3 million) funding Asian software developers working on the open-source Linux.

bad example

[SweetAndSourJesus]

People buy the CD because maybe they don't have the bandwidth to download 1+ gigs. Maybe they can't afford a CD burner. Maybe they don't have an operating system to begin with.

It's not that they thing they're getting a better deal.

Re:another country going down the wrong path

[jasonditz]

When you read "open source Linux software" just remember all that stuff will be trivial to port to FreeBSD as well (assuming it doesn't run using the Linux ABI emulation layer).

A note about the banks.

[glrotate]

The reason they are so large is because they have so few of them. 18 major ones I think. The US has thousands.

Re:Oh boy! $450k!

[stinky wizzleteats]

Are you kidding? That will buy two or three full sized multi-story development campuses full of engineers in India!

Ah,

[labratuk]

It's so nice of Japan to donate this code to us.

--
CEO,
Castle Technology UK

Please mod this up +1 funny

[eniu!uine]

I'm all out of mod points you see, but I'm laughing out loud.

$450k US?

[vlad_petric]

... enough to pay ~ 6 developers for a year ...

Compared to the investment IBM made (they claim ~1B$), or even Redhat (50M$), this most likely won't have a real impact (except for PR, of course)

Re:WOOHOO! GUNDAM!

[VoidEngineer]

Ohmygosh! rotflmao!. That's the coolest thing I've seen in, like, a month!

Yo, I had no idea that there was anybody building wacked out stuff like that... What's up with that control seat?! It looks like a fricking back-hoe operators seat! =)

They totally need to get a copy of the code to MechWarrior and rewrite the device drivers! If anybody want's to work on a Gundam-mech port of Mechwarrior, count me in! (I'm totally serious... I'd open up a site on sourceforge, and recode the entire fricken game, if it meant getting to fly back and forth from the US to Japan to write Mech code!!!)

LOL... Yo, mod the parent up!!! That's the coolest link on this thread! =)

Re:Oh boy! $450k!

[Timesprout]

Presumably though as it is a feasability study they will source a consultancy group to execute it. I'm sure Gartner and their ilk will quite happily pocket 450K for a study of this nature and produce a nicely formatted 10 page document at its conclusion.

Even if they do perform the study in house its still a reasonable upfront investment for a feasability study.

Re:WOOHOO! GUNDAM!

[VoidEngineer]

LOL... rotflmao! That's the coolest link I've seen in, like, a month!

Yo, I had no idea that folks were building wacked out stuff like that over there! What's up with the control seat?! It looks like a freakin back-hoe operator's chair! LOL.

Seriously, though... they need to port Mechwarior, and write device driver's for that thing! Put a couple of LCD moniters in there, a throttle control and joy-stick, maybe some foot pedals... Yo, if anybody want's to open a file on source-forge, and make a port of MechWarrior for Gundam-mech, there, count me in! =)

Mod the parent up! That's the coolest link on this thread!

Re:Oh boy! $450k!

[JoeBuck]

Basic rule when reading Slashdot: the story will be wrong, you need to follow the link to get the real story. The government is allocating 1 billion yen ($8.3 million) for Linux software developers. In addition, it is spending $450K to study the possibility of switching government computers to Linux. If the study finds that they could switch if problems X, Y, and Z can be solved, they can use the $8.3 million to solve those problems, and then get all that money back, and more, when they kick Microsoft out of a hundred thousand or so government machines.

Who remembers the 5th Generation project?

[gelfling]

Yeah, Japan was going to the change the very nature of supercomputing. That didn't work either. Let's just say I'm dubious.

Free software to run toasters..

[eniu!uine]

Home electronics is one of those areas where OSS should be really well suited. No end user sees the software itself, so you don't really need to attach a brand name. It also allows companies to work on the software(without footing the bill for all the costs), but still be reasonably sure other companies can't screw them over. Linux developers may actually be able to program their VCR's.

I haven't had the opportunity to run BSD yet, and I'm very happy with Linux, so I'm unlikely to go through the trouble to switch, but I am curious as to why a lot of people seem to think it's better? What in particular is better about it? Security is supposed to be better, but I hardly think about that with my desktop system. Slightly off topic, but I haven't heard of any governments thinking about switching to BSD(start throwing up the links now).

If I ran any large organization that purchased Microsoft products I would send out a press release stating I was considering Linux even if I wasn't. Maybe they can get some discounts.

Re:Free software to run toasters..

[TheRaven64]

I haven't had the opportunity to run BSD yet, and I'm very happy with Linux, so I'm unlikely to go through the trouble to switch, but I am curious as to why a lot of people seem to think it's better?
I run a Linux network, and I've just started playing with FreeBSD. Quite frankly I was amazed. For ease of use it beats Linux hands down (appart from not installing bash by default. The sysinstall utility which runs from the command line lets you configure almost everything, and the ports collection is the best way of installing software I've seen. It really made me wonder why Linux was so much more popular. Of course this is entirely subjective...

Re:Oh boy! $450k!

[Talinom]

I'm a bit confused here. Someone help me clarify my broken thinking.

Japan, where the corporations are REALLY good at making consumer electronics, may want to sell a Linux based system in the US. How would they overcome some of the little hurdles we have here like:

1) Fleets of RIAA lawyers.
2) The MPAA.
3) The DMCA.
4) Another evil(tm) acronym.

Will they not have a problem balancing the release of source code and the restrictions of the DMCA? How does Tivo do this?

Or will they see their product as a consumer friendly alternative and damn the consequences?

I see this press release :P

[TheJesusCandle]

Business - AP World Business
Microsoft Buys Japan
Wed Feb 5, 03:53 PM PT


Microsoft plans to spend about 1 billion dollars (120 billion Yen) funding Japan in its entirety, says Bill Gates, Wednesday.

Gates' plans on purchasing the country at the end of fiscal 2004, but he's not sure what to do with it. Industry pundits predict that Japan will go the way of WebTV and many other companies/countries purchased by Microsoft.

"I like Japan", says Gates, "they really are good at science". Later, Gates was seen snickering.

Re:Oh boy! $450k!

[Wingnut64]

You have that backwards.
50,000,000 yen = $450,000
*NOT*
450,000 yen = $50,000,000

yen dollar

450K????

[the eric conspiracy]

450K, to develop a new OS are you kidding??? That's like nothing.

Hmmm.... let's look at the article... whoa, it says $1 billion yen, like 8.6 million dollars. Now that is a little more serious, but still nothing like the $1 billion that IBM is sinking into Linux.

Later in the article $50 million yen to study the possibility of moving government computers to Linux.

Odd though - this article seemss to be rather different than what the Slashdot capsule says. I wonder if Slashdot editors read the articles? Nah, they couldn't possibly just psot this without reading the article.

Re:LedHat Rinux ?

[majestynine]

RMS "Fill my register and pass me another comfort girl there Eric"

Yow...am I seriously out of touch?

[jejones]

Had you asked me, I'd have thought Japan was still all ga-ga over their home-grown TRON operating system.

Re:Yow...am I seriously out of touch?

[JKR]

Having recently worked for a Big Japanese A/V manufacturer, I can most certainly assure you that uITRON (micro-iTRON) ain't going away. Instead, they layer an uITRON compatibility layer on top of the Linux kernel (modifying the kernel as necessary, mentioning the GPL is a big no-no) and then run everything (including a Java VM of all things) on top of the uiTRON layer.

I can't actually think of a worse thing to do; lose all the flexibility of Linux and the real-time behaviour of uiTRON. Gah.

At least one embedded OS (eCOS) already HAS an iTRON API but Redhat seem to have killed it off.

Jon

Re:WOOHOO! GUNDAM!

[Luke-Jr]

Ever hear of modules?

plan9 is used in Japan

[DrSkwid]

unicode support is popular

all of plan9 text is unicode, even the c source

it is used in at least one Japanese university

remember MSX?

[DrSkwid]

http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c =90

In the early 80's, there were a lot of home computers. A Japanese company called ASCII corporation (directed by Kay Nishi) decided to create an industry standard for home computers: MSX was born. MSX means Machines with Software eXchangeability. This is the true and only meaning, stop spreading the word about another explanation please.

The new standard was based on an existing computer: The Spectravideo SV 318 which can be considered as a beta version of MSX1 computers. Microsoft designed then MSX1 computers and the first version of the OS: MSX DOS 1 (which looks like early versions of MS-DOS).

Almost every Japanese and Korean computer companies made their own MSX computers (except maybe NEC). Bill Gates was then very confident about the future of the MSX standard.

Re:remember MSX?

[will_die]

Hey don't forget TRON(Time Real Operating Nucleus) it was another of theses japanese operating system/hardware that was rather interesting.
Part of the basic design for the system was was different size keyboards.

The network runs on Cisco et. al. not Apache

[DrSkwid]

the rest of your post is just as naive

nice try though

Re:Oh boy! $450k!

[vandan]

If they spend the money directly then it wouldn't be that much. But since they are funding others who are developing open-source software, the effect is much greater.

I would expect that each group that worked on open-source developments would receive about 5-10% of their funding from the government. Or in other words, the funding is affecting development costing $4.5M.

This reduction in costs of 5-10% will give developers a great incentive to switch from other systems to Linux.

Now say that of the total spend, 50% comes from people who just migrated to Linux. So that is $2.2M that was being spent on other systems that is now being spent on Linux.

This $5M isn't being spent by government pen-pushers. It is $5M funding research and development by companies that are trying to be as cost-effective as possible. You can do a lot of programming for that much money.

Re:Oh boy! $450k!

[pgrote]

Even though you didn't read the article ... 450K could do wonders if you hire the right people. Imagine two Linus types just aching to make things happens.

Re:Oh boy! $450k!

[ToastedBagel]

Still, wouldn't you say that $450k is such a ridiculous (small) amount? Besides Tokyo is the most expensive city in the world (http://www.onbusiness.ie/2003/0116/cities.html), so relatively speaking, it's like $300k or less in US. It means that they can hire one or two good consultant to do the work for a year or maybe less. Would you still think that they have the slight idea of what they are getting into?

Bad summary (1Billion yen, not 50m)

[Black Copter Control]

If you RTFA, it turns out that Tokoyo (city?) has budgeted 50M yen to investigating the current viability of switching over, while the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry is going to dole out 1B yen (US$8.3 million) to support asian development of Linux software
It seems like the /. editors didn't bother scanning the web page pointed to before they posted the story.

Re:Oh boy! $450k!

[An Onerous Coward]

"For example, Tivo, which is Linux-based, is the greatest consumer electronic item of all time."

A-HEM.

Thank you.

-- Your Refrigerator

What the hell?

[autopr0n]

Japan and China are totally different when it comes to things like software piracy. I'd be willing to bet that software piracy in Japan is an order of magnitude less then it is in the US.

As another poster mentioned, it would be like calling the US and Mexico 'practically the same thing'. Or even the US and Cuba.

Re:Oh boy! $450k!

[offpath3]

n Japanese that means like $50 Million, and that's a lot!

Umm... it means 50 million yen. Where a soda costs 120 yen from a vending machine. No, it really translates to about $450k.

Cool

[timeOday]

"Japan is betting 50 million yen...

Cool!

... ($450k US)

Crap!

bad economy makes open source nessicity

[Anonymous Coward]

If anyone thinks this is because people hate microsoft, that's probably only a small part of it. The economy (world economy) is shitty, so that means every company and large institution is thinking about ways to save money and be more efficient. The cost savings of not having to go through lengthy purchasing and budgeting saves more than just the cost of the operating system, or the staff. It saves in reduced purchasing and management overhead. If you remove the need to go through a lengthy purchasing process, which requires a half dozen people to sign off, those people can do something else more useful.

Any body that has worked in government or a large institution will know how much hassle it is to purchase a piece of software. Going with open source makes financial sense, development sense and management sense. If your developers can get to work immediately and not wait for 5 weeks due to purchasing delays, that's 5 very valuable weeks. If you work in the government, where purchasing beakers can take 6 months, it can make/break a project.

Microsoft is it's own worse enemy. They have huge profit margins and it's commonly accepted as truth, so business are pissed their own margins are razor thin. Really, why in the world should company A cut their own margins down to 1-2%, when microsoft's is over 50%. But take the name microsoft out of the picture and say it's just a monopoly company. You can easily replace it with big 5 car manufacturers vs mechanics. Saving money is the primary force driving open source growth.

patent time

[Delphix]

The money is to develop an 'operating system for consumer electronics goods'.

Hmm... I wonder who invented^H^H^H^H^H^H already owns the patent on this one.

First Godzilla Post?

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

Here it is, 50 comments or so, and not one damn Godzilla post. Would Bill Gates be the Smog Monster?

...And they still couldn't sell Xboxes

[Vladimus]

Despite a government mandate, they only managed to sell roughly 8 Xbox consoles in Japan the day following the announcement.

Despite this setback, Microsoft stock climbed +12 3/16 in trading Friday.

Re:Oh boy! $450k!

[Buck2]

Why is this informative? It's bullshit.

It's not "like $50 million" in Japanese ...

They're spending 50 million yen for one year, which is around $420k if they were to spend dollars instead, which would be stupid because they don't use dollars.

Besides, if you were to RTF article yourself you would see that the Japanese have budgeted $8.3 million in total.

ls -la in Japanese

[Tokerat]

$ ?? -??
??: No match.
$ ?? -??
??: No match.
$

(shortened to apease the lameness filter)

Re:10 reasons not to use Linux.

[Oriumpor]

1. Opera is good even with the ads it's better than mozilla a lot of the time (not all the time mind you mozilla is good sometimes when opera is bad. But under most cases Opera shines especially in linux. And the reason to run linux is so you get to choose what kinda browser you want. They are all decent and do the job of WEB BROWSER, so what else is there more than choice and functionality?

2. You can change anything in the boot that you would like, if you wanna mount corrupted file systems or possibly completely blank filesystems, by all means please do.

3.There are wizards for nearly everything in linux, you can download them in binary form as well you just need to learn the titles. If you download Linux drivers for Lexmark/Compaq they are getting better about including wizard style driver installation for Linux. (printers)

4. To this I will do a little bullet point thing of my own.
The next few resources are available to those who have trouble with linux:

-www.Linuxnewbie.org (wonderful doc selection) and a decent forum for discussing noobish questions.
-www.Linuxdocs.org (howtos up the wazoo tons of awesome step-by-steps and a bunch of good articles on how to document your work older tho)
-www.tldp.org (the new linux doc site with updated material)
-www.sourceforge.com lots of neet stuff specifically questions about applications, although not exactly the best place to go it is a nice thing to have last resort, sometimes if the program is really esoteric you can get ahold of the author.

5. From what I understand this is on the todo list

6. there are process managers for different enviros... for instance KDE has one, as does Gnome. atm we don't have an autokill process manager I suppose we could.

7.If you wanna easily share files use LinuxNeigborhood I believe it allows you to share directories relatively easily in a gui.

8. OSS is fine, for new stuff. Otherwise ALSA does rock, the new kernel is gonna be awesome.

9. Umm... Pico? http://www.washington.edu/pine/

10. You can change resolution with hotkeys so I don't know what problem you're having changing resolution.

You don't know Jap

[slashdot_commentator]

Its a potentially brilliant move by the Japanese government. They get screwed by GATT if they subsidize product manufacture for export. Also, roughly 5-10 year ago, they had a really screwed up computer infrastructure (picture 5 types of PCs but all incompatible to each other) which they probably unified by going Microsoft.

Japanese makes major money from appliances and cars. They know that embedded programming to "smarten" up the products is the future. If the gov't gives the money to the keiretsus to invest in this direction, the US sends their lawyers to bitch that the Japanese manufacturers are "dumping" their Japanese gov't subsidized products.

Instead, they put the money into embedded linux development. It ends up being an infrastructure building investment. The car and appliances manufacturers then pluck the finished development and incorporate it into their products. Furthermore, by having a desktop linux, they end up "unifying" their PC products without the decisions being made in Redmond, USA.

Here's the kicker: their investment may not be poached by foreign competitors. Sure its GPL, and everyone has access to it. But perhaps they hope that Microsoft will supress adoption of Linux throughout the market. The investment is for the taking, but the Microsoft dominated markets can't use it. Its saves the Japanese industry all that software money that would be going to Microsoft for development infrastructure. It also results in cheaper products, because it doesn't have the Microsoft tax for each item. USG can't point to a gov't subsidy to support their claims of "dumping".

Too bad for the Japanese that their government is too corrupt to clean up their banking problem.

Re:Linux is not the solution for everything

[Yokaze]

Pardon, but your post begs some questions:

>but for high performance applications where both speed and memory are critical, such as game consoles, a monolithic kernel will not cut it

As opposed to a non-monolithic kernel? They usually introduce even more overhead to replace the function calls with message-passing.

>and we feel that a lightweight proprietary OS that is simply a lightweight hardware abstraction layer is still the way to go.

Why do you need hardware abstraction at all?
As you said "multiprocess management, memory protection, and the like are not necessary ". Furthermore, a game console is a very homogeneous system and hardware access
policies don't have to be enforced either.

So, you'd only need hardware abstraction to ease the programming. This can already solved by libraries. Mayby I'm nitpicking, but calling it an OS seems to me a bit out of proportions.

Just like the days of E-TRON.

[torpor]

Actually, its not really news that the Japanese government is doing this. They've been doing this for years - trying to get a globally accepted embedded device-control operating system widely adopted among the industry.

There used to be a project, headed up by one of Japans most respected computer scientists, called TRON.

This was pre-Hollywood "TRON" movie, which actually had some basis in its script and 'ideology' on the Japanese ideals put forth by the TRON project; which were, simply, to create a global networked computer 'system', accessible throughout the world, out of the embedded OS in consumer devices. In other words, put chips *everywhere* and have them all function as part of a global computer system.

I guess the end result would be so that the phrase "imagine a Beowulf of that!" could be applied to *anything*, in actual fact there would be nothing *but* Beowulf clusters of everything, and its name would be "TRON".

TRON was a project to try and define this OS and how these devices would communicate with each other - in 1978!!

(It may also be referred to as the "E-TRON" project, I seem to remember there being some move to change the name at one point...)

Anyway, just wanted to point out that the move of the Japanese government to promote OSS is probably based on an even older ethos among the Japanese techno/industrial zaibatsu's...

Re:Oh boy! $450k!

[Captain Large Face]

I believe the use of the word "Tokyo" is ambiguous.

The capital city of a country is often used in media to refer to the goverment, e.g. Washington made a decision, blah blah, or Brussels voted for this or that, etc.

I think more information is needed, but all I can find it the same AP announcement.

OpenBeos

[OberonX]

OpenBeOS would seem to be a very good alternative to Linux in the consumer eletronic market. Hopefully when it's ready(in a year time maybe) it will versatile enough to be able to re-create a OpenBeIA which would be ideally for these kind of job. And I don't have to start on why BeOS was/is amazing...10scs boot up time, journaling file system, beautifully simple interface, virtually crash proof, etc, etc...

Uh, not to burst your bubble, but . .

[alhaz]

That many yen doesn;t go all that far in japan. I'm pretty sure Lineo spent more than that on rent alone in their japan linux operation, and where did it get them?

Stop modding Offtopic posts as Trolls, please

[Homburg]

I wish people would stop moderating line-noise like the parent (and first posts, penis birds, Soviet Russia jokes etc.) as Trolls. There's a perfectly good Offtopic category for mere irrelevant crap. Trolls are inflamatory or intentionally stupid posts designed to get a response. The parent isn't.

No Buts - Programming Jobs of the Future

[PingPongBoy]

Naturally software in heavy use today will become devalued and obsolete. People will pay for the genius required to develop better technologies such as

- automation of more business activities
- Currently a lot of small businesses automate away the secretaries. Many small businesses can conglomerate and still have just one secretary/receptionist. There are a lot of people with skills that have not been automated away in small businesses yet. It's happening slowly as managers buy better tools and reduce the number of steps.
- virtual reality
- robots
- automation of personal activities

What we need with the new technology are loftier goals.
- simulation and modeling of nature
- businesses venturing into space
- colony of robots on the moon
- artificial intelligence

Many skilled people will find that menial mundane jobs are done by machines. So what? Who wants that work anyways? There will be work to be done.

It isn't a problem. People who own assets will find that competition will drive them to risk what they have on new ideas. Capitalists didn't get where they were by spinning their wheels. They must seek growth. Technology enables this.

A very quick way for capitalists to understand the potential of technology is to work with them. I am developing some new software for some small businesses. The software started small and served the core business needs but when the business owners saw the software they immediately wanted more features. They can't get enough.

Big businesses have software everywhere. In a big business programmers have to work on new software for new business angles. Leave the simple minded programming for old business divisions to the cheapest programmers. In the new business ventures it's genius that makes the difference between fast or slow success.

Re:Linux is not the solution for everything

[karlm]

> We've actually ported Linux internally to the GameCube hardware

ftp ftp.nintendo.com

login: sgupta
password:
password:
password:
Login Failed.

ftp> open ftp.nintendo.com

login: sgupta
password:
password:
password:
Login Failed.

Okay, throw me a bone here. Password rhymes with Tritney Sbears? Accidently leaked disk image to Kazaa as DEVEL_024135.img? My home open SMB share is at 62.218.7.36? I throw out the old development discs on Tuesday nights? I ftp the source unencrypted across three continents at 3:24 UTC every Monday? We use the old discs as pocker chips at the Blue Rhino club after work every Wednesday? You know it wants to be free. Think happy penguins playing all over the world. Just give them a little nudge out the door.

Fifth Generation computing

[Pseudonymus Bosch]

Japan is betting...that the next-generation of high-tech products and computer networks will rely on open-source software.

This reminds me of the Japanese project of "Fifth Generation Computing" in the 80s. AIs, Prolog everywhere,... What resulted of all that?

Re:Oh boy! $450k!

[LeftOfCentre]

I really don't understand how the RIAA, MPAA and DMCA are related to this at all. Why and how would the DMCA restrict open source? I don't see it... not in this instance, anyway...