Secret Irish Data Repository Uncovered

topgold writes "During an initial public meeting yesterday, the Irish Justice Ministry revealed that for nearly a year, the Irish government has mandated all telecommunications operators store traffic information from every landline, fax and mobile phone call for at least three years. Irish Times journalist Karlin Lillington offers insights regarding this secret data retention regime in several national newspaper columns. A considerable citizen reaction is at the boiling point, stoked by a civil liberties discussion board and the rejuvenation of the Electronic Freedom Ireland citizen group. By law, the Irish government can deep-six any Cabinet discussions related to the 'deliberative process' and since this decision to retain phone records happened at Cabinet level, it could have remained hidden for more than five years."

Comments

What were the techies doing?

[jericho4.0]

I'm suprised that the ISP's did this for so long and the news didn't leak out.

Re:What were the techies doing?

[Anonymous Coward]

The techies were probably just "obeying orders." Hey, they were getting paid. And is it such a big deal since it only effected the "bad people"?

Hell during the crusades it was fashionable for people to walk around with blood past the elbows.

They were just making the world a better place!

Re:What were the techies doing?

[Anonymous Coward]

It did, sortof.
Ireland has no broadband/ADSL - Eircom's prices exceed even Australia's, reflecting 'costs' of backing up such data. The economy took a dive - punishment for not having competitive ISP rates?

Re:What were the techies doing?

[Planesdragon]

Hell during the crusades it was fashionable for people to walk around with blood past the elbows.

The crusades were a war; valor in war was widely respected by those taking place in the war, be it Europeans trying to carve out kingdoms in the holy land or Native North Americans feuding amongst their own tribes.

They were just making the world a better place!

Odd that you pick the Crusades as an example of "a bad war," when they were started because of pilgrims being killed in the Holy Land--and the miliary strucutre was only there because Muslims tried to conquer Europe first.

Ooh

[snack-a-lot]

Glad it's Ireland and not the UK. Unless they meant Northern Ireland .. which they didn't, I think.

Still, this kind of thing is probably going on in loads of countries, it just happens that they found this one out.

Re:Ooh

[alanp]

And what do you think the RIP act does ??

It's being going for 2 years in the UK !

And no it's not Northern Ireland but what difference does it make ? Do you think terrorist organisations colude via the internet or phone ?
Don't think so, down the local apache-land bar for that...

Re:Ooh

[ngtni]

The poster was pointing out that if they were monitoring Northern Irish traffic, then they would actually be monitoring UK traffic. This is a very real possibility since many Irish ISPs are also available within Northern Ireland. He wasn't talking about terrorism.

Re:Ooh

[Anonymous Coward]

It's good to live in the good ol' USA where shit like this doesn't... err... oh it does? Nevermind.

Re:Ooh

[alanp]

The poster was pointing out that if they were monitoring Northern Irish traffic, then they would actually be monitoring UK traffic.

Now that is getting political ! Is it Uk traffic, irish traffic or northern irish traffic ? ;-)

Oooooh!

[mikeophile]

You found me lucky charms!

Re:Oooooh!

[Anonymous Coward]

How would you feel if *every* American story posted on slashdot received highly rated "Ah gone done aks mah sister f'r marry cuz she real purty" comments?

It wears thin very quickly.

Re:Oooooh!

[Anonymous Coward]

How would you feel if *every* American story posted on slashdot received highly rated "Ah gone done aks mah sister f'r marry cuz she real purty" comments?

I'd feel insulted. We're all SUV-driving, wealthy, overweight, gluttons with a God complex and enough nukes to destroy the world. We're not hillbillies.

Re:Oooooh!

[CleverNickedName]

Ha! :)

Signals in Australia

[bigchris]

Sounds remarkably related to the Tampa spying">Tampa spying debacle Australia had last year.

deep six

[Anonymous Coward]

The explanation given for deep sixing cabinit records for five years is that many of them relate to the peace process.
Yesterday the government proposed to be allowed increase this time to 15 years, given this on the same day we find out the've been snooping us is very disturbing

Re:deep six

[Ryano]

"The explanation given for deep sixing cabinit records for five years is that many of them relate to the peace process.

"Yesterday the government proposed to be allowed increase this time to 15 years, given this on the same day we find out the've been snooping us is very disturbing"

Up to now, cabinet records have remained confidential for thirty years. However, under the 1997 Freedom of Information (FOI) Act, individuals are now entitled to seek discovery of records relating to cabinet decisions that are over 5 years old. As the act only came into operation 5 years ago, cabinet records from that time are only now coming under the provisions of the act. As far as I'm aware pre-1997 cabinet records cannot be subject to FOI requests.

So the "deep sixing" of cabinet records for five years is not a new measure brought in to protect sensitive documents relating to the peace process, rather it represents a considerable liberalising of the old system. This is why the government is proposing rolling back on these provisions: they're only now being faced with the practical implications. Whereas previously cabinet members could rely on their deliberations being kept secret until after they retired, now they are faced with the prospect of controversial documents being released while they're still very much in power.

I don't think the peace process is a factor at all: these sort of documents could probably be kept secret under the heading of 'national security' or some such thing.

Re:deep six

[Draoi]

However, under the 1997 Freedom of Information (FOI) Act, individuals are now entitled to seek discovery of records relating to cabinet decisions that are over 5 years old

So now you know why Bertie and his pals want to scrap the FOI act. So far, it's been used to dig up a lot of dirt on the cabinet & FF in particular. Unfortunately, it's also used by relatives of people who were incarcerated by the state in religious-run orphanages to obtain information on their families. Not any longer if the government gets their way .... :-(

Every line?

[Exiler]

If every bit going into the country had to be stored for 3 years, wouldn't they eventually run out of space for hard drives? I mean, the way storage density is right now, they can't possibly store EVERYTHING.

Re:Every line?

[upside]

To me "traffic information" means who called who, when, how long it lasted. They keep that for billing purposes anyway.

Re:Every line?

[spacefight]

For billing purposes three year long? Why that? Six months seems long enough for most countries...

Re:Every line?

[JimDabell]

By "traffic information", I believe they mean data such as who you called/emailed/etc and when, rather than what you actually talked about.

Re:Every line?

[upside]

Obviously the government isn't interested in the billing. :) I'm just saying storage isn't such an issue if they don't have to keep the actual data, and that already they have the systems in place for storing this information.

Re:Every line?

[bfree]

It would be very interesting to know if they are actually tracking who e-mails who and personally I doubt it! Why? Well I know of at least one small hosting company here in Ireland who do not keep (beyond standard log files they don't touch let alone preserve) these sorts of records for themselves let alone anyone else, and certainly have received no requests not to use encrypted channels for email communications, or not to offer webmail or ..... If an Irish person is using webmail, then some carnivore type system would be required to snoop the communications and parse the requests to give them a record of who emailed who! If the webmail is under ssl then they are stuffed n'est pas? All they could really track is that you are using a https server!

Re:Every line?

[JimDabell]

Well I know of at least one small hosting company here in Ireland who do not keep (beyond standard log files they don't touch let alone preserve) these sorts of records for themselves let alone anyone else

SMTP offers no real protection against traffic analysis. Even if you encrypt every email you send, the headers are still sent as plaintext, so you can still monitor who emails who. Even if you use webmail over SSL, the emails still come in through SMTP.

Yes, you can set up your SMTP server to allow access over TLS, however since virtually no ISPs support this, unless the sending party sets up their own SMTP server as well, everything will still be unencrypted. Even if you set up your own servers, connections between the two servers can be tracked.

Re:Every line?

[bfree]

I should have thought a little longer but:

• Any mail sent between two users of the same webmail system may never hit network smtp (i.e. local delivery).
• A webmail user connecting by https cannot be connected to outgoing mails from the webmail server so just because 1.2.3.4 connected to the webmail system and a mail was sent from 1234@webmail.tld to saddam@terror.tld does not mean that they can state that 1.2.3.4 is 1234! This assumes of course that the webmail system has a significant volume of traffic which prevents simple analysis correlating the two events.

Do you think they would have a clue who has mailing who if hotmail used https?

Re:Every line?

[zemkai]

Do you think they would have a clue who has mailing who if hotmail used https?

I'm assuming you're being rhetorical here, and that you are aware that Hotmail puts the IP address of the user in every outbound mail header.

-ZK

Re:Every line?

[bfree]

Not entirely retorical and no I pay little attention to hotmails workings so I wasn't aware of that! But if the user is using an anonymiser and/or hotmail dropped this IP address ......

No mention of network traffic

[upside]

And it's only traffic information, not the actual data that gets passed. I would have thought they'd keep that kind of information anyway. If *access* to the gathered information is regulated properly, I don't see a problem.

Re:No mention of network traffic

[cobyrne]

If *access* to the gathered information is regulated properly, I don't see a problem.

The Data Protection Commissioner has outlined some of the problems that exist with such a data retention scheme, even if access is "properly regulated".

Of course, one thing that no-one has mentioned yet is that if privacy is outlawed, then only outlaws will have privacy. I have a mobile phone - now that I know that all calls I make on that phone will be recorded and potentially used by law enforcement, I feel like going across the street to a public phone and making all my calls from there. I don't have anything to hide from the law, but if I happen to get caught up in some difficulties with the law, I don't particularly want the law to have unhindered access to all the details of what I use my phone for, as I use my phone for some very very personal things indeed. And that is the huge problem with this system - it is extremely easy for outlaws to defeat it - all that they have to do is to go "across the street" to a public payphone.

Re:No mention of network traffic

[cobyrne]

But I don't care if `losing a freedom` means someone keeps a note of who I phoned 7 months ago?

Even if who you phoned 7 months ago was a mistress that you had a one week affair with? Or a business off whom you bought viagra but which has since diversified into cocaine and other illegal narcotics?

Do you keep 7 months of receipts? 7 months of bills? Because if law enforcement can use 7 months worth of your communications patterns in court against you, you would better have at least 7 months worth of documentation with which to defend yourself.

Re:No mention of network traffic

[irc.goatse.cx troll]

"Even if who you phoned 7 months ago was a mistress that you had a one week affair with? Or a business off whom you bought viagra but which has since diversified into cocaine and other illegal "

Or even worse(and sadly, more accurately?), What if you dialed the wrong number and got someone who is a terrorist? The logs dont show that you dialed the wrong number, They just show you're associated with terrorism.

Re:No mention of network traffic

[Eric S. Smith]

What if you dialed the wrong number and got someone who is a terrorist? The logs dont show that you dialed the wrong number, They just show you're associated with terrorism.

If a log showing one seven second phone call is going to pose a problem for you, it's clearly not your only problem.

I'd be more worried, if I were going to worry, about someone tracking my cellular phone movements and deciding that either

1. my everyday comings and goings were suspicious
2. a one-time deviation from said comings and goings, co-incident with some notable event elsewhere, were an indication of my involvement in said event

This is a great deal more likely if I'm already one of the usual suspects.

Re:No mention of network traffic

[jumpingfred]

Public payphones are dying out as more people have cell phones.

Re:No mention of network traffic

[glesga_kiss]

OK, say you are in college and you cheat on your girlfriend, buy some pot, or some other politically unacceptable act. Then, many years later while you are in public office, someone with a grudge to bear against you discovers this via these records and informs the press.

See you later, Bill. I hope the next guy in office is decent, peaceful and knows how to run an ecconomy.

This info is not to track crime for 99% of the people being tracked. Criminals know this and use alternatives. Terrorists are well ahead of the game and aren't affected either. So, what's the point of it? I've got nothing to hide, so stop spying on me!!

Re:No mention of network traffic

[Jester99]

Actually, I file all bank statements (Which are just as good as receipts since I pay for everything with a CheckCard) for one full year.

Technically, in the USA, I think that you're supposed to keep those records for five (e.g., The Man can legally subpoena up to five years worth of financial records, and you're supposed to have 'em). So find a shoebox someplace and toss those old bank statements in there. It's really not too big a deal.

Re:No mention of network traffic

[Gossy]

Well, you'd better have your mobile switched off beforehand, and never called the person before. Payphone records are tracked too.

If they're trying to track you down urgently, they'll check your mobile records. They'll check who you've called, who've they've called.. If you have a few regulars that you call (or call you), they'll start watching their accounts for calls.

You make a call on a nearby payphone - the number is recorded and flagged. Whoops, they got you. They now know where you are, even if you were smart enough to ditch the mobile phone you were carrying so that they couldn't track you that way.

Hell, lets go a step further.. you then jump into a car and drive away. Nearby CCTV catches you and they find your number plate. Ken's new security ( sorry - congestion ) cameras pick you up a few days later and flag your record up on a computer.

Alright, it's a bit extreme, but it's possible. I'm sure they wouldn't go to those lengths if say, you'd stolen a car, but if you were a suspect in a recent bombing I wouldn't be too surprised for them to go to these lengths to track and find you.

It's not quite as easy as you make it sound.

Re:No mention of network traffic

[Tenebrious1]

Do you keep 7 months of receipts? 7 months of bills? Because if law enforcement can use 7 months worth of your communications patterns in court against you, you would better have at least 7 months worth of documentation with which to defend yourself.

Come on, even hard drives are still warrantied for one year. That means you gotta keep your receipt if you're gonna prove it died within warranty.

I keep all receipts and bills for three years at the very least. First, in case something does come up, like the IRS declining deductions they accepted in the past years- those deductions are worth more than than keeping a couple boxes of old bills. Second, warranties, especially the extended warranties which businesses conveniently forget I have until I show them the receipt. Third, insurance purposes, in case of theft or fire. Lastly, when I sell something off, it's good to have the receipt so I can figure out how much it's worth (for taxes if applicable).

And yeah, to prove that no, I did not call that person, that call does not appear on my bill.

Creeping fascism

[Anonymous Coward]

That small place at the top of society where all the power lies, is like a magnet for dirtbags. The more concentrated power is, the faster the dirtbags take over.

Notice how fast things began to slip right here in the United States after power was concentrated through the rash of recent laws. One day you look up and wonder, "Who are these people running my country?"

Re:Creeping fascism

[Anonymous Coward]

Stalin was anti-fascist. 30 million people still died.

It isn't our capitalist ideology that keeps that from happening here, it's our assumption that we control the government and that we demand oversight over its actions. Terrorism is merely an excuse for secrecy.

Re:Creeping fascism

[ratamacue]

Power is corrupt by definition, because power requires the initiation of force (power is defined by coercion, rather than voluntary association). Logically, the individuals most interested in gaining power are those with a desire to control others. Peaceful individuals -- those who respect the concept of personal liberty and personal responsibility -- tend to be the ones who don't want anything to do with political power.

Re:Creeping fascism

[ratamacue]

Have you considered the possibility that terrorism is directly related to political power? Could there be a connection, for instance, between US foreign policy and 9/11?

Re:Creeping fascism

[praedor]

ALL people want power to some extent. It's part of evolution. There is a natural and inevitable dominance hierarchy that cannot be erased by utopian idealism. There is ALWAYS a person in any group who takes a leading role, regardless of the purpose of the group. There are always those who will chaffe against this to some extent, seeking themselves to be that person or obtain a favorable position in the overall hierarchy.

It is all part of acquiring mates and resources. EVERYTHING ultimately stems from these most basic drives. Power is not automatically "corrupt". It just is. What one does with power is what is corrupt or not. It is a value judgement you place on it, not something intrinsic to itself.

Re:Creeping fascism

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yeah....this all happened the very instant someone you don't care for was elected to office. Never occurred before that huh?

At least not in the eight years prior to that.....then the twelve years prior to that power was abused....but the four years prior to that was good huh?

I think I see the pattern.

Re:Creeping fascism

[mOdQuArK!]

ALL people want power to some extent.

I don't quite agree with this. I think that most people want _security_ - the ability to control their own lives. They instinctively understand, however, that to have security, they must have enough power to fend off influences which might take that control away from them.

It's only when you have a person who has no limits on the amount of power that they want to amass that you have a problem.

Re:Creeping fascism

[DancingSword]

"Power is corrupt by definition, because power requires the initiation of force (power is defined by coercion, rather than voluntary association). Logically, the individuals most interested in gaining power are those with a desire to control others. Peaceful individuals -- those who respect the concept of personal liberty and personal responsibility -- tend to be the ones who don't want anything to do with political power."

Yeah.

Notice How The Word "Political" is assumed throughout, yet made explicit at the very end...

POLITICAL-'POWER' DOESN'T DEFINE 'POWER', PEOPLE!!

Discussion is a kind of power ( that many are excluded-from, for underlying reasons that don't have their origin in 'politics' )

Right-to-vote is a kind of power ( remember the term 'suffrage', people? racism/sexism/chauvanism isn't political, it is merely cultural-belonging prejudice, us/them with appearances triggering the group-boundaries/reactions, and 'politics' being merely a bunch of labels ladled ontop: animals have us/them unconscious determinations, and I don't see any valid point in accusing them of politics! )

Self-command is a kind of power..

Right-to-BE is a kind of power..

Health/well-being is a kind of power..

Tranquil/Immoveable Mindfulness is a kind of POWER, and I don't buy that it is inherently corrupt!!

Ah, I just realized that the ones committed to making sure that 'power' be defined/assumed political, are committed-to controlling-the-definitions so as to prevent alternative knowing...
interesting...

Re:Creeping fascism

[Noel]

Power is corrupt by definition, because power requires the initiation of force

Some people can only influence others' behavior through force,or the threat of force. Other people can influence others' behavior without threat of force. Who is more powerful?

Re:Creeping fascism

[Tackhead]

> I don't quite agree with this. I think that most people want _security_ - the ability to control their own lives. They instinctively understand, however, that to have security, they must have enough power to fend off influences which might take that control away from them.

You're half right.

Yes, they want security, loosely defined as control over their own lives.

No, they do not believe that security is obtained by "having enough power to fend off influences that might take that control away from them."

Instead, they believe that security is obtained by GIVING OTHERS THE POWER to fend off said nasty things FOR THEM. And no, this isn't a liberal-versus-conservative thing.

Liberals: "Only the police and the military should have guns". That is, you don't have a right to kick bad-guy-ass. Bad-guy-ass-kicking is the privilege of your betters, who graciously provide your security.

Coservatives: "We must eliminate privacy to eliminate terrorism." You don't have a right to privacy. Privacy is the privilege of your betters, who graciously provide your security.

Stop thinking of yourself as a human being with rights. Start thinking of yourself as a sheep, who exists only to be sheared.

The healthy sheep are permitted to graze on whatever grass they can find, because they produce plenty of wool while alive (sheared at 50% income taxes), and meat when slaughetered (inheritance taxes).

The scrawny sheep are given better pastures (welfare and social benefits) in which to graze, because they greatly outnumber the healthy sheep, and produce the will of the herd (the 50% of the population that pays 5% of the taxes - elects the politicians that collect the other 95%).

Lest you (or the shepherds!) think I'm trying to diss the shepherding system, I'm not. I'm a sheep. I'm proud of it.

Freedom is overrated. As a sheep, I may be no more free today than I was 5000 years ago, but my standard of living has greatly improved. The alternative is to go back to the days when there were no shepherds. Scrabbling around mountaintops for 30 years trying not to be eaten by wolves sucked. Under the sheperds, I get antibiotics and can live to 60 or 70, eat better grass, fresher water, and there's a Bovendo Game-Cube in my pen. It's a fair cop.

Re:Creeping fascism

[praedor]

You are missing the point. You cannot avoid power struggles nor someone gaining power - it comes AUTOMATICALLY when groups of people get together to do anything at all. Even if a group is unstructured by design, it is inevitable that to accomplish goal A, someone WILL come out of the dominance hierarchy on top and the others will follow. It is just the way it is.

A country/society isn't just a gathering of people, it is an active group that absolutely requires a chain of command so that people know what to do and when to do it so that there is no nonsense working at cross purposes (and contrary purposes can be squelched...SOMEONE or SOME means/end HAS to come out on top or you get nothing at all but spun wheels and more conflict).

Social groups have leaders. If they aren't put there from the start, they will be put there as a matter of course and as a result of inevitable power plays/dominance hierarchy dynamics.

US Double Standard

[Bloodmoon1]

Ok, now let's see how many people bitch about this as usually do about the US government *possibly* doing things like this that no one ever seems to be able to offer up hard evidence on. Either we don't do it, or we're that damn good at it.

it would contain...

[grep_a_life]

if internet use is any indicator on how the telecom systems are used, the list would be:

50% about sex
30% spam (or telemarketing)
29% adolescent mush
1% calls to a data recovery shrink

hmm... may be not that accurate... anybody care to modify? (ooh, I'm beginning to see several "in soviet russia posts)

Re:it would contain...

[grep_a_life]

dang, there goes my math... overstated the dang percents... ack... next time, I'm not posting with a hangover... unless it's about Irish beer...

Re:it would contain...

[ngtni]

You forgot online alcohol purchases. This is Ireland we're talking about, after all. 20% maybe?

Re:it would contain...

[InadequateCamel]

"Adolescent mush" Heh heh...

Anti-terror operative: This same message is being passed between these two users, over and over...LUVU LOL ROTFL CYAL8R WB XOXOX

Tech: Yeah, you're right! I wonder what it is?

ATO: Obviously secret code, perhaps communication between terrorist cells? I can't figure out what it says; it must be in code. And these names...they must have religious meanings. Pikachu_roxxz, Iluv_Leo... Where are they all coming from?

T: Little Rock...a private school for junior high girls.

ATO: They're using innocent girls? Bastards!

Re:it would contain...

[MarvinMouse]

so we have

50% about sex... okay..

30% spam... about enlarging penises or porn or sex

29% adolescent mush... about sex....

and 1% calls to a data recovery shrink... about sex...

Yeah, the internet seems to be a bustling house of activity... about sex...

Re:it would contain...

[lostboy2]

Nah, it just means that the telcos are giving 110% like any hard-working pro-athelete. Fighting through adversity, taking it one day at a time and all that. :-)

probably madly swapping tapes

[The Tyro]

That's a truckload of data, even if it was just "traffic information."

I wonder just what that means... "traffic information." Surely time, date, duration, initiating and receiving parties. I can't see them having too much beyond that... It should be a logistical impossibility to have any information about the content of all those messages... way too much data to sift through and catalog.

Interesting that this was reportedly done by fiat.

Details of the Policy

[bluelan]

I think this article gives a better description of what the data retention policy is. It's more concise anyhow.

Not even news here yet.

[ColmanReilly]

Slashdot is the first I've heard of it, and I pay reasonable attention to the main news services here in Dublin. It's a little premature to talk about considerable citizen reactions.

As background, the Minister in question is a PD, which makes him pretty close to holding views familiar to those in the US: I'm sure he'd be pretty comfortable in the right of the Democratic party or the left of the Republican, which makes him far right by European standards.

Re:Not even news here yet.

[dahamsta]

The "main news services" in Ireland wouldn't know technology if it came up and bit them on the arse. There are three, possibly four, clueful tech journalists in Ireland, and two of them are tied to the Irish Times, which doesn't leave much to spread around the rest of the "main news services". The "main news services" is not the place to look for technology news. I thought every TD&H knew that.

adam

Re:Not even news here yet.

[andrewmc]

There's an article just appeared in the last while from RTE here.

Re:Not even news here yet.

[topgold]

I think you have to respect blogs for bringing this kind of topic onto the radar scopes of the main news agencies. At the moment, the topic doesn't seem to catch the interest of any opposition party and it's too technical for the common guy to appreciate.

Re:Not even news here yet.

[Strigiform]

Perhaps it's time to make a little noise and make people more aware of these proposals?

Technical journalists (i.e. both involved in computers and law) in Ireland should be contacted and given any help they need to make this an issue.

Better to be open about it, or not?

[pubjames]

I have mixed feelings about this type of thing. Is it better for governments to do this type of thing in secret, and for we the general public to remain happy and unaware, or for it to be done in the open, and for us to realise that it happening and to be unhappy about it?

Ireland is an interesting case because a few years ago it became public knowledge that the Brits had been covertly monitoring all calls between Ireland and the UK for years.* And personally I don't think you are paranoid if you believe your government (especially if you live in the UK or USA) is electronically monitoring hundreds of thousands of telephone calls, SMS messages, emails etc. right at this very minute. My question is, being that governments already do this, and if it done only in the name of combatting crime and terrorism and not abused, is it not perhaps better if Joe and Janette Public remain blissfully unaware of it?

*I can't recall the exact details, but as I recall people became aware of this because a telecom tower in the east of Ireland was put out of service and up for sale, and it was discovered that its purpose was to monitor calls between Ireland and the UK.

Re:Better to be open about it, or not?

[meringuoid]

Ireland is an interesting case because a few years ago it became public knowledge that the Brits had been covertly monitoring all calls between Ireland and the UK for years.

With good reason. Terrorism wasn't newly invented in 2001; Irish nationalist groups had been causing trouble in Britain for decades. Eavesdropping on transmissions from Ireland to the UK probably allowed a great many plots to be foiled.

I'd keep it secret, of course, but not out of fear of worrying the public; I'd want the IRA to think their phone communications were secure, the better to exploit this intelligence source. If word gets out that phone calls are routinely tapped, then the bad guys will switch to some other communication; encrypted snailmail, perhaps, which cannot be so easily compromised.

Re:Better to be open about it, or not?

[matt_wilts]

I think it was in the UK rather than Ireland (I believe this is from Channel 4 but Google has lost the full attribution):

HOW BRITAIN EAVESDROPPED ON DUBLIN

THE MINISTRY of Defence "Electronic Test facility", a rather mysterious 150-ft high tower stands isolated in a British Nuclear Fuels Limited site at Capenhurst, Cheshire. Locals
knew that the tower housed a dark secret but did not know what it was. That secret is now out.

The tower was craftily erected between two BT microwave radio towers carrying telephone traffic. The ETF was the ideal place to discreetly intercept international telephone calls of the Irish government, businessmen and those of suspected of involvement with IRA terrorism.

Channel 4 filmed extensive BT equipment inside the building, including optical fibre cables linking the tower to the MoD's communication system.

The hi-tech white ETF tower included eight floors of advanced electronic equipment and three floors of aerial galleries.

These were used to extract and sort the thousands of communications passing through every hour. Fax messages, e-mails, telexes and data communications were automatically sorted by computers scanning their contents for key words and subjects of interest. Telephone calls could
be targeted according to the numbers dialled or by identifying the voice of the speaker.

At the time the tower first came into operation the IRA campaigns were raging.

Relations between the British and Irish government's were not always smooth, with the British suspecting their Irish counterparts of being sympathetic to the IRA.

Since the early 1990s, the British electronic spy agency GCHQ and its American counterpart NSA have developed sophisticated libraries of voice profiles to use in scanning international telephone messages.

The ETF tower was operated by personnel from an RAF unit based in Malvern, Worcestershire. The "special signals" section of the RAF "Radio Introduction Unit" install and run projects for GCHQ.

According to local residents, the site was manned 24 hours a day by a team of two to three people, until the start of 1998.

Besides the Capenhurst tower, communications to and from the Irish Republic were also intercepted at a similar but smaller GCHQ station in County Armagh. This intercepts microwave radio and other links between Dublin and Belfast.

A third GCHQ station at Bude, Cornwall, intercepts western satellite communications, including to and from Ireland.

From 1990 until 1998 the Capenhurst ETF tower intercepted the international communications of the Irish Republic crossing from Dublin to Anglesey on a newly installed optical fibre submarine cable, called UK-Ireland 1.

From Anglesey, the signals were carried across Britain on British Telecom's network of microwave radio relay towers, centred on the BT Tower in London.

The key link, from Holyhead in Anglesey to Manchester, passes directly over the Wirral peninsula to the south of Birkenhead. The ETF tower was built to pop up into this beam.

When the new cable was planned in the mid 1980s,
intelligence specialists at the Defence Ministry and GCHQ Cheltenham, the electronic spying headquarters, realised that the radio beams passed directly over the nuclear processing plant at Capenhurst.

During 1988, a temporary interception system was built on the roof of the BNFL factory. When tests of the Irish interception system proved successful, intelligence chiefs decided to go ahead with a full-scale system.

Within the Defence Ministry, the project was classified "Top Secret Umbra". The codeword Umbra is used to designate sensitive signals intelligence operations.

Not even BNFL, on whose land the ETF tower was built, was let into the secret.

The Ministry of Defence held a meeting with residents early in 1989 and urged them not to talk about the site. In return, they were given free fencing and double glazing.

The architects were told that the tower had to contain three floors of aerial galleries, each with four special "dielectric" windows. These are opaque to visible light, but allow radio beams to enter.

By building the tower in this way, no-one could see what aerials were inside, or where they were pointing.

But the architects' plans, lodged at the local authority offices, revealed the true purpose of the tower.

The plans revealed that the radio transparent windows had to be aligned on an extremely precise compass bearing of 201.12 degrees to magnetic north.

Aerials pointing through these windows would point precisely at the British Telecom towers at Gwaenysgor, Clwyd, and Pale Heights, near Chester. These are the towers carrying the Ireland's international communications links through Britain.

During installation in 1989 and 1990, defence officials were concerned to conceal what was going into the tower. To disguise it, contractors vans were repainted in the livery of BT and other public utilities. BT refused to say whether this had been done with their knowledge and consent.

Since the Irish telecommunication moved onto a different system over a year the Capenhurst tower has been made redundant. The Ministry of Defence are trying sell it off.

It would not make a very comfortable home and it is hard to see what legitimate business might now be interested.

The Defence Estate organisation said this week that it had extended the time for offers to be made. It would accepts bids for the tower up to midday today.

The Home Office said: "In accordance with standard practice, the Government does not comment on alleged interception activity." BT said it did not wish to comment.

The Irish government said it would comment later.

History of the Eavesdropping Agency

THE BRITISH Government's eavesdropping agency, the Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ), is based in Cheltenham.

It was set up 1946 after the success of the Government Code and Cipher School in Bletchley of cracking the German Enigma codes during the Second World War.

It is responsible for monitoring telecommunications and telephone calls in Britain and around the world and employs some 4,000 people. It works closely with MI6.

GCHQ uses state-of-the-art equipment for a wide range of operations to decrypt diplomatic traffic and to identify the voices of individuals who are of interest to the West's intelligence services.

GCHQ officers have been closely involved in the British efforts to tackle the IRA. GCHQ also works closely with the US eavesdropping operation, the National Security Agency. The agencies work together on a system called "Echelon", an integrated global surveillance network intercepting international satellite and communications links. It is said to have benefited the US and UK with information about arms and trade deals.

Until 1975 few people outside the intelligence community knew about the existence of GCHQ.

In the Eighties, Margaret Thatcher took union rights away from GCHQ staff on the basis that trade unionists were a potential threat to national security. Those rights have now been restored. After the Cold War, GCHQ cut back on staff numbers. The Cheltenham headquarters is being rebuilt at a cost of pounds 300m.

Re:Better to be open about it, or not?

[pubjames]

The ETF tower was operated by personnel from an RAF unit based in Malvern, Worcestershire.

That was probably at the Malvern DRA. I know some of the guys there read Slashdot, but I guess they can't comment on this stuff!

They do some amazing stuff there.

Re:Better to be open about it, or not?

[Anonymous Coward]

With good reason. Terrorism wasn't newly invented in 2001; Irish nationalist groups had been causing trouble in Britain for decades.

Yeah right, nicely balanced view you've got there.

Like the British haven't been causing trouble in Ireland for centuries...

Re:Better to be open about it, or not?

[homebru]

DRA = ?

Re:Better to be open about it, or not?

[pubjames]

DRA = Defence Research Agency

Re:Better to be open about it, or not?

[Draoi]

Actually, I knew a guy who worked there in the '90s (ex-Aber. friend of Alan Cox). They used to have a website here but it seems offline right now. It's now called the DERA, by the way ... Pete C (Cork, Ireland)

Re:Better to be open about it, or not?

[hoofie]

I would image all of the paramilitary forces (ie Republican and Loyalist) in Northern Ireland have been (and still are) VERY careful about what they discuss where and when.

Phone tapping is not a new tactic, and if there is one thing all of the events over the last 40 years in Northern Ireland clearly point out is that they are not stupid and have some very savvy people in their organisations.

Eavesdropping on transmissions from Ireland to the UK probably allowed a great many plots to be foiled.
I would think more plots have been foiled by some poor sod risking his life to overhear a conversation or a chance piece of information picked up by routine. I don't think the IRA was in the habit of discussing bombing plans chapter and verse over the phone.

Re:Better to be open about it, or not?

[easter1916]

Not to mention all the so-called "loyalist" and "unionist" terror groups, the B-Specials before them, the Royal Ulster Constabulary, the Black and Tans, etc. But of course, those groups were state-sanctioned and state-assisted in many cases, so that made them "legitimate".

Re:Better to be open about it, or not?

[Strigiform]

From what I've read on the matter, the IRA never assumed that their phone lines were secure.

Re:Better to be open about it, or not?

[Strigiform]

Some more info here from Richard Lemont, who claims to have been involved with the expose.

More info here from the same site

Article on the Irish MEP (Member of European Parliament) who wants an investigation. (Bit cheeky of the site to copy the page whole, though!)

Article by Duncan Campbell on the facility

In Other News...

[jesse.k]

Google announced that they had purchased the database, refused to say why.

Now-

[katalyst]

The Irish have something in common with the Americans. BUT, America takes the cake. For a country, where one doesn't know whether their president was killed by a fellow countryman or a foreign traitor, where they don't know wether Area51 is a top secret UFO something or a big joke, where national secrets are too big to tell to the president himself, it has done remarkably well. Probably, 99% of USA's problems would be solved if the government is frank, honest and open to its citizens ;)

Re:Now-

[Noel]

We're blasting out signals and we sound like a Mack truck going by to anyone listening

And just what kind of person^Walien do we expect to run up and answer when they hear this Mack truck going by?

Re:Now-

[fishbowl]

I'd be willing to buy the theory that another party, unknown to Oswald, ALSO saw the unique opportunity for a presidential hit, and seized it.
In other words, Oswald himself couldn't have identified the "co-conspirators" because he never knew they existed. There was more than one group or individual with a sincere motive to assassinate president K.

Area 51 is no more or less guarded than any other US military post, which is to say, if you have no business there, you won't get in. The same goes for shopping centers on base... If they have experimental aircraft there, you're damn right it'll be kept under a mysterious veil of secrecy.

Given the enigmatic nature of "area 51" itself, if I were commanding that post, I'd nurture the mystery. Then, a few miles away in a nondescript area, I'd do whatever secret stuff there :-) Watch my left hand... Watch my left hand...

You're suprised?

[Anonymous Coward]

then you must be a total moron!
this stuff has been going on for years.. the only 'shock' here is that they actually admitted it. stupid idiots.

I just knew it!

[YeeHaW_Jelte]

The Irish are out to get us!

We wanted a large = 1TB file server...

[tom.allender]

So that's why Linux.ie built a teraserver.

We wanted a large >= 1TB file server mostly to store backups.
http://www.linux.ie/articles/teraserver/background .php.

Conspiracy!

Re: We wanted a large = 1TB file server...

[paulhar]

Half the /\. readers wouldn't be able to squeeze their pr0n and mp3/ogg collections onto such a small box.

Is this new?

[sabri]

As far as I know, European legislators are working on the same for years now. In The Netherlands the government is working on legislation which also enforces a policy on ISP's to keep their traffic-data for years (currently the to-be-kept counters remains on 3 years). Fortunately, they are listening (or at least pretending to listen) to the ISP's as well; we have been asked what kind of impact that would have on the ISP and what kind of technical measures would be necessary.

An odd thing is that in some countries it currently is illegal to keep traffic-data for such a long time; the data is only to be kept for billing purposes and when that is done, the data must be deleted for privacy reasons.

Re:Is this new?

[blanch]

Its very worrying to see such things happening. The EU Directive on privacy in telecommunications in 1997 specified that personal data could only be retained by telcos, ISPs etc. for billing purposes and must destroyed after its usefulness has passed.

This was clearly a decision made on the side of personal freedom and civil liberties. It's worrying that the Council of Europe (a parallel organisation that is comprised of heads of state from around the continent) proceeded to adopt a stance opposite to that of the above directive, and began to mandate all ISP's and telecommunications companies to retain data. The stark contrast between the positions of these two organisations -- one democratic, the other a cabalistic gathering of prime ministers and presidents -- makes the difference in their motivations quite apparent.

The retention of data that has been uncovered here in Ireland is related to the Council of Europe's decision, and we can be certain that something similar is occurring in all the other states.

Re:Is this new?

[fish23]

Ironically, the EU Directive protecting individual rights comes from the unelected, democratically questionable EU Commission.

The Council of Ministers, who are eager to pry, have all been fully elected.

Mind those conclusion jumps!

What's different

[cymbaliner]

What will this law change? Prior to this law, how long were records like this kept? I get the feeling this law won't change much. My question is why does the Irish government feel the need to ensure three years of record keeping? Why three years? Why at all?

Why war with the US is necessary

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it's a country full of whackos with too many nukes and not enough brains. Let's bomb those fat dumb hamburger eating neanderthals back into the stone age where they belong and make sure they stay there.

Re:Why war with the US is necessary

[Anonymous Coward]

Now, come on. We have no quarrel with the American people themselves, we just want regime change.

Re:Why war with the US is necessary

[Saddam Hussein]

Don't say that, it's not very nice. George just doesn't understand me.

Re:Why war with the US is necessary

[Marcus Brody]

but the US is not going to join your silly little world government.

Well that's quite allright.

As long as you carry on with that attitude - creating injustice - then people are going to get angry. And they are going to want to blow you up - which you kind of deserve to be honest.

Re:Why war with the US is necessary

[hoofie]

One word : Palestine.

The day when the US of A might decide that PERHAPS the situation in Israel and the Palestinians could be improved by applying a little bit more pressure to the Israelis rather than the usual cop-out of giving them billions of dollars a year in aid, then the US of A might find out that perhaps some of the worlds inhabitants dont see the US of A as target #1.

And for all of these anonymous cowards who don't have the bottle to login, like the ranting moron above, I'm an admirer of the US, love the people, and I'm dismayed by the rampant illogical US-bashing in Europe, but the blindness of the current US administration towards the Middle East's root problems is terrifying.

It's been done for several years in Denmark

[Anonymous Coward]

It's been done for several years in Denmark where all cellular phone calls are stored for 5 years before being destroyed, the police can then retrieve the contents using a search warrant.

Re: Bomb Australia too

[the_raptor]

Please send a few spare bombs south! I dont think our current government has the right attitude regarding Linux! In the aftermath they will all be sent to concentr.... I mena re-education camps to learn the joys of free software. the_raptor Commander Australasian forces, 4th Penguin Legion

so?

[Anonymous Coward]

lets put the argument this way.

there is a high probability that your itemised invoice is store a backup tape at the print vendor for a number of months, maybe even years.

there is a 100% probability that the billing system at the telco you use has ALL of the call records you ever made, on ANY network you may have made them (roaming or otherwise)

there is a very high probability that your call records generated by the switching platform the telco uses are stored and backed up accordingly.

most people who read slashdot know that backups are important for both data retention, financial auditing, and customer dispute purposes.

the real question i have, that none of the articles make clear is WHO stores this. if the goverment is intending on marshalling this information then there is a problem. asking the telcos is far more privacy friendly, but only just. chances are, they have this information anyway. is it really all the mess its blown up to be?

Take Action now!

[Gopher971]

I've been following the debate on privacy here for a few years now. If you want action to be taken on this issue than contact your TD or Senator. Here is a link to their contact details. On a personal note, I am *disgusted* with what the Irish government. This strikes at the heart of privacy for the Irish citizen. IANAL, but this may well be repugnant to the constitution and existing data privacy legislation.

Known Terrorist^h^h^h freedom fighter??

[totierne]

Well who can prove I am not?[Or will not be, 'Minority Report' anyone?]
Text me and implicate yourself. +353 86 825 6032
They cannot arrest/intern/investigate everyone, or if they can the AI programs used may be dual use enough to be really useful, and information processing/database company shares, like the one I work for, will skyrocket.
They might backtrack and find you when I take out a city block.[Unabomber meme- I'll not handwrite anything] :)

When they came for the terrorists, I did not say anything because I did not realise they considered me a terrorist.
http://www.geocities.com/totierne

More scary information about interception systems

[blanch]

If you want to really scare yourself about this stuff, read the European Parliment report online here.
It covers in great detail the state of international communications intelligence, with a focus on Echelon (i.e. the UK/USA alliance secret communications interception system), and the related threats to freedom and economic competitiveness.

It's a big report, but its extremely comprehensive and honest. The kind of thing "M" gets to read in James Bond flicks.
It puts estimated numbers on how many phone calls, emails, web accesses, SMS messages, Faxes etc. are intercepted from different countries; and also describes how they acheive this.

I was very surprised how little attention it got from the media when it was published.

Views on the issue

[MoThugz]

OK, from the article itself, it can be concluded that the author finds the Irish govt actions to be reducing the individual's right to communication privacy.

It can also be summarized that the Irish government is merely trying to protect the rights (and lives) of the general public considering the turbulent past of the Irish republic.

The question is, where do we draw the line in respecting individual privacy as well as safeguarding the interests of the public at large? Is there a "right way" to do this? I think that this issue is subjective in its essence. No one can tell you what info is private and what should be made known publicly. I bet almost nobody cares if you're having an affair with your neighbour's wife, unless of course the husband... or you/the neighbour is someone famous.

In these times of post-911... every western government is becoming paranoid especially when there's Middle Eastern/Arabic/Islamic people are involved. Deny it as much as you want, but deep down inside you know that this bigotry is true. How else can you explain an airport terminal shutdown just because an Arab sprayed perfume on himself as well as two immigration officers?

Just an example of how screwed the world has become... Now the internet (one of the biggest global hope as an instrument of international unity), as well as other forms of communications are being threatened by "perceived threats".

I'm all for the effort of combatting terrorism... but not at the extent of paranoid delusions that "the al-Qaeda has 0wned the Internet".

Erm

[Exiler]

I made it up when I registered for /. completely randomly. I've never seen an episode of Dukes of Hazard, and I've never heard another American say it 0.o

Re:Erm

[jaavaaguru]

Damned moderators and their -2 offtopic scores!

Where else was I meant to discuss that? ;-)

Re:Not ISPs, telcos

[anticypher]

Blogs pointing to blogs pointing to blogs. Not one scrap of technical detail, very little political detail, and only innuendo about gardai (police) involvement. Perfect /. fodder.

Irish telcos, thats my old domain. What they are probably talking about is Call Detail Records from telephone switching equipment, SS7 data from SPs and STPs, lookups of SCP features, billing and customer data. The total amount of data is not that large, a few hundred megabytes per day for all landlines in a small market like Ireland. Mobile system switches can generate much more data, such as cell site handoffs, signal strength, power cycle events and SMS content. GSM/GPRS/UMTS data could total 4-6 Gbytes/day in a market with 2 million handsets.

CDR data was normally kept for a legal minimum of 90 days past each billing cycle, to allow for customer service to deal with complaints. Any disputed data would be copied out of the dataset and kept with the customer record in case the problem took a long time to resolve.

Typically, hard disk based CDR and customer records were kept for nine months before being moved to the recovery pool, and the disk/tape space would be recovered within a year. Billing and customer records are kept permanently, or at least ten years until they are unreadable by modern equipment (9 track, Wang magneto-microfiche, and other horrors)

Immediately after the Omagh bombing, a copy of the complete datasets of all systems in the Republic and NI going back at least 10 months was made and turned over to the police and intelligence services. Combing through that data, the investigators were able to track the exact trips made by the usual suspects in the weeks before the bombing, the exact routes they took, and calls made from vehicle to vehicle in the convoy carrying the bomb south to Omagh. The BBC aired a report on all this about two years ago, much to the chagrin of the powers that be.

This does not seem to concern ISPs, at least for the moment. The meeting seems to have been about who pays for longer data retention, and who pays for investigator access to the data. With a dozen requests per week to a telco for detailed records relating to various cases, it could take several experienced and expensive engineers most of their time. The Irish telcos, as well as ones in the U.S., have been trying to make Law Enforcement Access into a revenue centre. If a detective wants the complete calling history of a certain GSM phone, that could be a billable item. If a prosecutor wants additional data for a conviction, they'll have to dig into their budget and pay the telco for the data. The government wants to compel the telcos to provide this service in return for tax incentives, regulatory breaks, and some other backroom deals.

the AC

Advantages to this type of data retention

[popoutman]

I knew about this retention for a long time anyway, I thought it was public knowledge.

This type of retention can be used to trace stolen mobile phones and can also greatly assist in the process of criminal investigation - some crime investigations have gone on past the 6 month retention time prevalent in other countries. See the Guerin investigation, or the Omagh bombing for examples.

I have no problem with this retention as long as it requires a court order or equivalent for the release of the information to the relevant authorites, and never to a non-govermental agency.

Re:Advantages to this type of data retention

[anticypher]

Retaining Call Detail Records is fairly common knowledge, but I wouldn't say public knowledge. The public are, in general, too stupid to understand anything more complicated than the weather and the price of food.

used to trace stolen mobile phones

That is what the IMEI number is supposed to help with, but the cost of building and maintaining an industry wide database of stolen phones has made it almost non-existant. When the press reported in Britain last year the most common crime was cell phone theft, there was some political movement to start cutting off stolen phones, but the project has not even started yet. The phone companies are resisting having to run such a system, because it would require cooperation between all the providers, and need a small but expensive full time staff to run.

On the plus side, when I want a new cell phone, I just go to the flea market on a saturday morning. Buy a recently stolen phone for about 10, wander into a dodgy phone card centre and pay them another 10 to unblock/recode the phone, and buy a rechargable phone card from them. 45 for the latest Nokia phone with no long term service contract, not too bad if you can ignore the associated bad karma.

as long as it requires a court order

You're new here, aren't you?

In order for retention to be usable, there will be a nice simple point-n-drool interface for investigators to get the data, along with a way to preserve the raw data to be used in prosecutions. When the system becomes simple to exploit, then requirements like court orders will completely disappear. Today, most of the data is handed over with no questions asked, its only when it is time to go to court that the DPP get formal and file proper court reveiwed requests so the defence can not trash the data in court.

never to a non-govermental agency

Once the tools are in place to easily extract this data, then Eir-con (and Orange and all others) will set up a group to market the service to private companies. They already have a working group asking around about how valuable cooked CDR data would be, if combined with customer data. They want 3rd party companies to purchase access to this data and combine it with other data and services to resell to end users. Think services to companies to track their employees both during work hours and after hours, services to worried parents who want to track their children's phone movements and usage 24/24, and private investigators who want to track down skips or deadbeats.

the AC

Is it true that he swears at his relatives?

[alext]

I was going to say something obvious about us being in the same situation regarding internet traffic routing...

But no, instead I'm reminded of the above remark, supposedly uttered by Her Majesty on being appraised of the content of Charles Haughey's phone calls by Mrs T.

And how reassuring to know that the Capenhurst locals could be bought off with double glazing. UPVC - the patriot's choice.

Open Source Government

[mikeophile]

Now that's a damn fine idea.

GNU/Democracy!

Ok, I'm going to bed now.

Re:Prediction

[MagPieie]

they already did :)

Ruling out Ireland

[Anonymous Coward]

I am currently looking for a country to move to, I guess this neatly rules out Ireland. Bah.

Re:Ruling out Ireland

[topgold]

Ireland should still be in the running for your emigratory pattern. Just don't bother owning a phone. And forget this Internet thing because if you carefully choose your remote Irish thatch, you won't find a connection anywhere nearby anyway.

No, they record the entire conversation, but....

[Anonymous Coward]

...its Ireland, so 99% of the calls are:

"So, are ya goin to da pub?"
"I'll see ya there around 10"
"cheers"

Devil's Advocate

[SlashdotLemming]

So what's the big deal?
Information should be free. Why can't they collect and store all of this information?
If *we the people* should have free access to all information, they why shouldn't *the government* also have free access to all information.
If *we the people* should have the freedom to launch model rockets into the air even though some idiot might use one as an NBC weapon, then why can't *the government* have the freedom to gather and process information, even though some official might abuse the information.

*The government* has laws to punish the idiots from *we the people*. *We the people* have freedom of speech and the ability to vote to punish idiots from *the government*.

ah dirtbags? you've been to Ireland then?

[phrantic]

I said it once I'll say it again,
Ireland, a banana republic, without the bananas. Note: I am Irish

wrong

[Ender Ryan]

You're wrong, it's ALWAYS been corrupt. Well, at least for well over 100 years. If you doubt this, read a bit of "The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt". He basically started in politics because he was angry with the corruption, and that was in 1882. You think corporate corruption is bad today(it is), well, it was just as bad back then, but it was done more blatantly. It's too easy to record things these days for them to do it so openly, so they just do it at Jack Valenti et al`s parties...

Re:wrong

[nomadic]

Right, and thanks to Roosevelt it was reduced. Every few generations corporate corruption becomes rampant, and someone needs to smack the corps down. Unfortunately we tried electing someone who might have stopped them last election, but the supreme court overturned our decision.

during an initial public meeting

[tetrode]

And why did I read that as "during an initial pub meeting"?

Mark

except for those...

[Ender Ryan]

True, except for those who try to grab power, solely for the purpose of keeping others with power in line.

People like that, who are successful, are few and far between. The others are a dime a dozen... sadly.

We need to elect a president like that. Unfortuneately, there's no one that has a chance any time soon.

Thats NOTHING! In LA,CA the store all payphones!

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats NOTHING! In LA,CA the store all payphones!

Its a fact, its little known, but was one time announced in a front page story in LA Times, that "for security and the Drug War" every single call made from a pay phone in los angeles is permanently recorded and stored.

Their reasoning for this fascism, much like "echelon" is that they are not listening to these "public conversations" they are just storing them. Ha!

No on complains.

And you think thats sick, in San Francisco city (and extended city area of SF Airport), you cannot call vertain 800 numbers from any public payphone if the numbers belong to pagers.

Pagers are considerred "bomb detonators" and "drug mule contact tools" I guess. I have to BEG private citizens to let me use their restaurant phones.

America is much more evil than UK.

Also front page news in NYT newspaper one august yeasr ago revealed that its a fdederal law that 1% (yes one full percent) of all simultaneous calls made in San Francisco have the ability to be simultaneously stored digitally. ONE PERCENT!

At least its not 100% such as in pay phones. Are you one of the 1% this week?

So let me get this straight....

[JohnnyCannuk]

...our American cousins are complaining about this "afront to civil liberties" while thousands of their own citizens are being detained, without trial or charge, in undisclosed locations across the US?

One would think that with Ireland's experience with terrorism, the Yanks would be applauding this!

I think some other posters have made the point quite well. Just because a government collects the information, doesn't mean they can do anything with it without a court order. I can tell you with some confidence that virutally all governments collect this information,it just that getting at it is hard (as is sifting through it - how many phone , cell, fax transmissions are there in your city or town in one day? Try picking out specific information out of that!).

Collecting information is morally neutral. Use that information to catch the Omagh bombers, and collecting it is good. Use it to track citizens arbitrarily and to detain them without trial or charge and it is evil. I'd be less worried about the collecting and more about how it is used.

Re:So let me get this straight....

[dentar]

...our American cousins are complaining about this "afront to civil liberties" while thousands of their own citizens are being detained, without trial or charge, in undisclosed locations across the US?


Well, us yanks despise that too, but our press is tightly controlled by the government (although they claim they're not) so we don't get to hear about our own citizens being detained. That never makes the press here.

Re:So let me get this straight....

[/dev/trash]

Could you provide some proof US citizens are being retained without trial or charge?

Setting the record straight.

[Anonymous Coward]

I live & work in Dublin. Quite frankly, no one gives a damm about it. Don't believe everything you read.

Slightly related, these records helped secure a prosecution against a persistant abusive caller. The Guards were a great help. If it had been the UK, I would have had to change my telephone number.

Don't loose any sleep over it, unless you like making crank calls.

Open Government since 1766

[SgtChaireBourne]

Within limits, government records in Sweden have been open to the public by default since 1766. It's part of the constitution. Had the E.U. had such safeguards, millions (billions?) of EUR would have been saved by avoiding the pay scandals a few years ago.

The U.S. could use it as well. Strangely, the situation leading into the adoption of Offentlighetsprincipen bears some semblance to the current situation in the U.S. One party took power, blocked access to government records to political opponentds and started a war. It took decades to sort out, but the result was modifying the constitution. Few countries come close on freedom of information and, as a side effect, on the freedom of press index.

</Gratuituous plug for Open Government>

Re:Open Government since 1766

[jxs2151]

Gratuituous plug or not, I really have difficulty figuring out how the situation you describe is even remotely related to the "current situation in the U.S."

You imply that one party has taken over..

That happens every four years...maybe, if the Presidential party and congressional party happens to be the same. This is certainly not like what you imply to be a power grab.

Block access to public records? The US has a FOI act just like most civilized countries. Admittedly it is abused, but by both parties here in the US. This, by the way, is nothing new.

..and started a war.

That happens from time to time and has never had anything to do with blocking government records.

I am not sure if you are propagandizing or just stupidly unaware of what you are talking about.

Re:Open Government since 1766

[Noel]

Block access to public records? The US has a FOI act just like most civilized countries. Admittedly it is abused, but by both parties here in the US. This, by the way, is nothing new.

True, the struggle to get public access to records is nothing new. However, the current administration's policy seems to be that the public should never have access to most of their records.

Look at 2002 FOI update: Bush administration and access - excerpts:

The Bush Administration is mounting the most sustained assault on open government since the early Reagan administration, or perhaps even since President Gerald Ford vetoed the Freedom of Information Act amendments in 1974.

That attitude -- open government laws are "as bad as possible" -- permeates the Bush administration, up to and including the president himself.

Bush refused to make a clarion call for openness, and instead complained that he couldn't use "e-mail anymore, out of concern for freedom-of-information laws but also concern for my privacy."

Cheney says his refusal to give the General Accounting Office any details on his energy task force meetings is not a cover-up but a principled attempt to restore presidential powers that have been eroded "because of the unwise compromises that have been made over the last 30 or 35 years."

Attorney General John Ashcroft told government agencies in an Oct. 12, 2001, memo to stop any discretionary releases under the Freedom of Information Act and to take advantage of any legal technicality for withholding records.

The White House Counsel's office held up release for a year of 68,000 pages of old Reagan-era documents, and issued a November 2001 executive order that turns on its head the Presidential Records Act -- giving to former presidents and even their heirs the indefinite ability to stall release of records

Re:Open Government since 1766

[DancingSword]

one single rights-subsuming ( privilege-subsuming ) self-protecting party-system has taken over, lad, and

the same gov't that attempted to commit Patriot II without permitting the governed to know about it you are saying .. doesn't block access to public records?

sophistry.

"of course public records aren't blocked" the logic goes ... "only non-public records are blocked from the public, dummy!"

riiighttt..

Re:Open Government since 1766

[SgtChaireBourne]

Sorry to get your knickers in a twist. I'll skip to the main point of your flame:

The US has a FOI act [my emphasis] just like most civilized countries.

For democracies and representative democracies it's kind of hard to have a civilized country without informed decisions. You cannot have an informed decision without unfettered access to information. Thus freedom of information is one of the cornerstones of modern democracies.

The U.S. has an Act. Sweden and Finland do not have a freedom of information act, nor a law, nor a contitutional amendment. It is a full-blown article in the constitution regarding freedom of information. Nor was it added yesterday, it's been there since 1766, ten years before the U.S. was formed

More importantly, it is (currently) well implemented and serves as a good model for other countries to follow. Case in point. Question: Upon joining the E.U., who did the Brits turn to in order get public E.U. documents? Answer: Sweden.

Lastly, this has everything to do with blocking government records -- every U.S. administration since Reagan has gone to great efforts to try to be allowed to erase electronic records, such as e-mail. So, in addition to what other posters have mentioned about DRM being a facillitator of corporate and political abuse, it is a rather direct threat to freedom and democratic process. And, uh, freedom and democratic process == good, right?

Re:Open Government since 1766

[CentrX]

In the United States, an article of amendment to the constitution becomes a "full-blown" part of the constitution.

Re:What about NSA Echelon (link to top secret doc)

[MarvinMouse]

umm...

This is not top secret...

It's not even secret (Even though before the changes were made it used to be classified Secret.)

That's why the work "Secret" has been crossed out and there are a bunch of xxxxx's on the page.

MOD THIS UP!

[Draoi]

Actually, they're right. Mary O'Rourke is the Minister for Public Enterprise in Ireland & has an abyssmal track-record to-date.

she has been at the forefront of the Government's commitment to the liberalisation and development of the Telecommunications sector

Har, har! Explain why we're all still waiting for flat-rate ADSL access, so?? The Eircom shares ripoff, etc, etc

Re:MOD THIS UP!

[MagPieie]

Esat are doing ok deal on adsl now, im paying 50 a month and i got 12 ip addrs, every household needs 12 ips :) they have a few packages much better than handing over any more cash to eircom. But yeah mary harney *bah* *bah*

Potential for abuse

[Quila]

Once the information is collected, there will be an abuse of that information. This doesn't necessarily have to be on the order of the great Big Brother conspiracy theory, but simply someone in a government agency saying "You know, if we cross-indexed this with this, we could find out this." Then that database gets linked with another one, etc., and eventually you have a huge database of personal information being misused, visible by people who have no business seeing that information.

It's kind of like in the movie Cube, it's wasn't built for a horrid purpose, it was just built.

I know this tendency because I work in government. When doing an IT project, most people forget to ask "Is this legal?"

And, please, cite the source for those thousands of detained U.S. citizens. The few cases I know of have been highly publicized.

Re:The whole reason for this is...

[Draoi]

Not since the last abortion referendum, thankfully. Mandatory link here

Re:Not ISPs, telcos

[Tisha_AH]

This is right up my alley. We retain three months for traffic engineering purposes but I could go back two years of archival data. This is the only way we can do traffic engineering to determine if trunk groups are properly sized and if overflows among groups is working correctly. It's amazing how an innocious change in one trunk group can save tens of thousands of dollars a year. Telcos have been keeping this data for years. Why all of a sudden does everyone get surprised? We don't record your conversations. All of the data is for use on our internal networks to track where call volumes come from and go to. Your single phone call is the same to us as a grain of sand is to a beach.

Umm it said phone companies, not ISP

[nurb432]

Im guilty of not reading stories too, but this time it was even in the overview that it was PHONE lines.. and not 'traffic', only the actual connections that were being monitored..

Still a hell of a lot of data.. and yes suprising it didnt leak...

aha, the all too familiar...

[Anonymous Coward]

..."If you are not doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to be concerned about" approach. Unfortunately, history has shown that things like this have a way or both growing out of hand and being innefficient (speaking here in terms of cost (i.e. freedom and liberty) vs. ROI (i.e. catching "baddies" like the abusive caller). Hell, why not just install cameras in everyone's houses and bug all their clothes. Then we will be able to catch lots of baddies. I feel more secure already. Hell, since only criminals need worry about this then I guess it would be ok to tag everyone who owns any firearms and then they should later not care if those firearms are taken away. After all, only criminals need fear a state where only the military and police carry firearms. (We won't bring in the issues of criminals having firearms thus proving that at least ONE of these measures here has been demonstrated to be "easily" circumvented)

Re: Mary O'Rourke

[Ryano]

Mary is no longer Minister for Public Enterprise - she lost her seat in the last election and has been kicked upstairs to the Senate. In fact the Department of Public Enterprise no longer exists: it has been replaced with the Department of Transport under Seamus Brennan.

I think responsibility for the Telecommunications sector now lies with the clumsily-titled Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources. There are also a number of quangoes operating under the Taoiseach's Department, such as the Information Society Commision. Government chief whip Mary Hannifin is involved in all this somewhere, I'm not sure how. They keep touting her as the "Information Society Minister".

Data Mining...

[BigBadBri]

Bertie Aherne: How much fecking data will this scheme make?

Telecoms guy: Terabytes and terabytes, Bertie - it'll take some storage

Bertie: But see - if it's got fecking terror bytes in it, it must be worth analysing!

That's not new

[sig97]

This is actually nothing compared to SORM or "system for ensuring investigative activity" - the Russian equivalent (more or less), which is perfectly legal in Russia and is enforced by Russian authorities so they can monitor the telephone network, fax lines and paging services.

More info at http://www.libertarium.ru/libertarium/14424

Re:Not ISPs, telcos

[glesga_kiss]

Immediately after the Omagh bombing, a copy of the complete datasets of all systems in the Republic and NI going back at least 10 months was made and turned over to the police

Ah. It involved terrorists. I guess that means our civil liberties are irrelevant then.

I remember when it used to be "communists".

Don't be fooled

[Chocolate Teapot]

I mean, the way storage density is right now, they can't possibly store EVERYTHING

Never underestimate density in government matters!

Re:Thats NOTHING! In LA,CA the store all payphones

[tevman]

i am fairly sure that i read an reputable story a while back that was talking about a program that the CIA has, they supposedly have extensive computer programs that monitor the phone lines for key words and suspicious people. it does sound like a bit of a conspiricy theroy, but the more i think about it... the more it just sounds... possible

Privacy is still safe...

[Eric_Cartman_South_P]

As long as they are storing everything on Maxtor hard drives, you have NOTHING to worry about.

Damn.

[sulli]

I was hoping for a secret Irish whiskey repository.

You are a tool.

[cr0sh]

Maybe I am calling up a bunch of my friends from one of these payphones (because I don't have a phone, or don't want or need one, or mine is broken, a backhoe dug through the line, whatever) to organize a protest against "The War On 'x'", or future war with Iraq, etc.

Yeah, perhaps this might be considered "non-illegal" today, but who knows what the future would bring. Despite such laws and proto-laws like the DMCA and UCITA, I doubt any of us could have forseen the likes of a law like the PATRIOT Act, nor the ramifications of it (which will reverberate and continue to shape policy for decades to come, BTW). Who is to say what is "legal" today will not be made "illegal" tommorow, where past "confessions" will be used against future "crimes"?

Think it can't happen? It already has.

What's the problem?

[Nexus Seven]

I'm sure all nations monitor communication in and out of the country. Why should Britain be any different?

Sure, but why be so secretive about it?

[sawilson]

If a Govt has to keep something like this so secret,
it tends to indicate even they know they are doing
something wrong.

Irishman's Thoughts

[DJ Mc Hugh]

Being an Irishman I am appalled to hear about this.... but I'm sure I can speak for most Irish people when I say 'Whatever' and 'Where is my Guinness' LOL

Re:Irishman's Thoughts

[easter1916]

So, you were appalled, yet you don't care? Could you please conform to a few more stereotypes? Jesus. Why not throw in a few "top o' the mornin's" while you're at it.

Re:Irishman's Thoughts

[DJ Mc Hugh]

It's called having a sense of humor and sarcasm. If one can't have a giggle at themselves then who can they have one at. We Irish are know for sense of humor and charm. I must come to the conclusion that you Easter 1916 are one of the few Irish people that does not have these qualities. Are you even Irish??? I also must assume that you are someone that supports the rising of the Irish people . We fight cause we have to, not cause want to.... 'Tiocfaidh ar la'

Re:Irishman's Thoughts

[easter1916]

I am an Irish citizen -- born and raised in County Cork. Just because I chose the screen handle easter1916 does NOT mean that I support today's "cause". Go fuck yourself with your IRA sloganeering.

Re:Irishman's Thoughts

[easter1916]

My grandfathers both fought in the War of Independence. I have a solid understanding of what the Rising was about. You apparently do not, if you think that today's thugs, extortionists, drug-dealers and gangsters have anything to do with those ideals.
Good day to you.

Martial law

[easter1916]

This is not in the least bit surprising. After "The Emergency" (as WWII was known in Ireland) martial law was never lifted and remained in effect until the early 1990s. The excuse was "combatting terrorism". Many of my fellow citizens will claim that this isn't true, but that is only because the powers granted by martial law were rarely used and never publicised. People in Ireland have little understanding of or appreciation for privacy and civil liberties and many subscribe to a 'tabloid' view of most issues, if they even bother to read the tabloids these days.

Re:Martial law

[Strigiform]

Which martial law provisions from WWII remained in force until the early 1990s?

Re:Martial law

[easter1916]

The Offences Against The State Act, 1938-1998.

A rose by any other name... the powers granted by this act could easily have been the model for the US Patriot Act. Scary stuff.

Re:Martial law

[easter1916]

Broken link, apologies. The correct link is The Offences Against The State Act, 1939-1998.

I agree...

[cr0sh]

On all of your points, AC, I agree - I probably should have put in the qualifier that the founders did forsee this. In a way, a lot of people actually did forsee the possibility of something such as the Patriot Act. I would like to say they didn't forsee the apathy, but even that would be incorrect. These people have been labled kooks and worse - but they have the courage to question the government, which to me speaks of true patriotism.

Yes, I too think it will probably get a lot worse before things come to a head - I only hope when that time comes we are prepared for it and the possible consequences - my greatest fear is that in the mad rush to correct things, the ideals will be lost and what gets put back into place will be worse than what was there before.

Re:No, they record the entire conversation, but...

[sergeirichard]

Don't be so cliched. We do that by SMS now.

Irish Times has an item on it

[Strigiform]

In todays' issue (28 Feb 2003), the Business section, page 3, there is an item by Karen Lillington on the issue. Kudos to Karen! There is also A poll on the business page of the IT. I naturally voted no and the stats were 83% No, 17% Yes just after I voted. I don't know how long the business polls are open, so make your voice heard.

Re:Irish Times has an item on it

[Strigiform]

That should be Karlin Lillington - mea culpa!