Slashdot Mirror
EverQuest - Not Just For Geeks?
DJPenguin writes "In this article at the BBC, a respected psychologist has co-authored a study into people who play games online, which breaks some of the stereotype of online gamers." This is similar in the results as the survey data we did of open source developers. The stereotypes and realities are often *very* different.
Of course it's not just for geeks. It's for Terminal Virgins, too. It's just that those two populations tend to have LOTS of overlap.
In this article at the BBC, a respected psychologist has co-authored a study into people who play games online, which breaks some of the stereotype of online gamers.
Respected no more.
It's good to see a study that debunks the myths being propagated in
the media. Those of us who play online games know that the vast
majority of the player base are not teenagers, rather they tend to be
older, in their mid-twenties and up. I've known a few teen-age kids
that played, however they usually weren't very successful and didn't
stick with it long. Although not all teen-agers are this way, many
of the ones that I've seen play were very impatient, they just wanted
to level really fast and get all the "uber" weapons so they would
have an "uber" character.
Most of the MMORG's that I've played require a significant amount of
patience, diligence and some amount of strategy in order to develop a
highly successful character. The few teenagers I saw playing these
games didn't seem to excercise those traits in abundance.
I'd like to see them extend this study to "computer" games in
general, and maybe compare those results to the demographics of
people who play console based games. I suspect that console based
games have a significatly higher population of teenagers than
computer or desktop based games.
Doug Tolton
"The destruction of a value which is, will not bring value to that which isn't." -John Galt
- About 85% of players were male.
- A "significant minority" (15%) adopt a character gender opposite to their own.
Could it be that the 15% of female players take on guys names?My college roommate played one of these games as a female for a while. He got hit on so much that he said he didn't see how anybody could play as a female.
I admit, I agree with the article that it's not just "pimply-faced teenagers." However, this does not reconcile the geekiness factor of the players. Last year, I had a CS professor who always talked about playing this game and I have to admit, he was a loser -- great teacher, but loser nonetheless.
Just because a lot of people are taking part doesn't mean it's not just all the geeks. In fact, the world probably has more geeks in it than non-geeks.
I am over here... now I am back over here!
I may be the odd one out, but I never considered EverQuest players to be largely geeks.
I imagined them to be ordinary people who use computers in their spare time, not those who make a career out of it.
I would have thought that the sale figures of Everquest subscriptions would have broken the geek myth, The numbers should have shown by now that there aren't that many geeks in the world so normal people have to be playing MMORPGs.
Haven't you all seen the commercial for the PS2 port of EverQuest? The players appear to all be friends from different racial backgrounds, know martial arts in real life and like to strike dynamic poses when making affirmative statements such as 'Let's do this!'
It all seems to work out too:
The white guy plays the archetypal white male barbarian character.
The asian girl plays the underdressed yet powerful female wizard character.
The black guy plays the dirty green ogre barbarian character.
Everybody has their place! LET'S DO THIS!!
-Rylfaeth
I may be horribly wrong but I beleive everquest costs money to play, you have to pay a subscription to the game?
If so I think everquest maybe a little miss-representative of the set of people that this research found less of.
why? money... People under 18 don't have credit cards, which is a big barrier in getting money out of them and younger members of society generally have less income, or none at all (intermitent at best).
Therefore, no regular flow of money, no everquest?
Take a game you pick up off the shelf and pay once for, the games that teenagers can afford...
I don't mean to troll, just pointing out an observation
Perhaps the reason the game extends far beyond the "geek" community is that "real" geeks don't have that much time to devote to playing games? :-)
Or perhaps I'm just showing my age again...
I was just wondering where these steriotypes come from? Are they based on real people which are extapolated to include the masses?
:) )
In my opinion, steriotypes are a way to visualize the unknown. It give you the false impression that you know everything about something you have never seen before, thereby removing the fear of the unknown.
(I'm throwing a ball here, please feel free to reply
I always thought that stereotypes were accurate. It's kind of a shock to find out that they are different from the truth.
chillax137
I don't know... how do his findings prove the Everquest gamers aren't geeks (see snip below).
And did you see this guy's picture. You just have to look glance at him to know that he's a gamer geek. I can safely say this b/c I'm a computer/gaming geek with a goatee.
The gist of this article is
"According to Dr Mark (who's a single guy that plays video games over 40 hours a week), all the single guys who play video games 40 hours a week weren't geeks."
I guess he figures he can get plenty of support on slashdot. Maybe a sort of revenge of the nerds type thing???
---snip---
Its key findings included:
* Over 60% of players were older than 19.
* About 85% of players were male.
* Fifteen percent of people play for more than 50 hours a week.
* A "significant minority" (15%) adopt a character gender opposite to their own.
Professor Griffiths said: "There is an image that people who play online games excessively are nerdy and geeky... This is not the case."
---/snip---
Is it me, or after looking at the findings (the one on the Open Source Developers) did anyone have their stereotypes confirmed?
Each item on the list could be considered geekish or could be incorporated into some amount of geekishness. And just using the words "Open Source" makes me wonder how anyone could think that the findings went contrary to expectations.
"If the good lord had intended us to walk, he wouldn't have invented roller skates." -Willy Wonka
"The findings dismiss the stereotype of a pimple-faced teenager locked in his bedroom.
Instead, today's player is just as likely to be a well-paid professional - male or female - aged in their 40s.
OK, so we all knew that those pimple faced kids that played D&D in their basements grew up and got good jobs. We didn't need a study for that. The sterotype still holds true, its just that the first generation of "Geeks" are all grown up now. And Still geeks.
The Geek Shall inherit the earth....of Norath that is. This is
If you dropped the bow so you weren't carrying a weapon, the default attack for this character is the high kick. I ran into some bug where the rendering engine woudn't know you were carrying a weapon but you still could shoot arrows. You'd do a high kick and a arrow would shoot out your crotch.
EverQuest - Not Just For Geeks?
Yeah, like Linux - and this is coming from a geek website.
MMORG are mainly played by men. A significant number of whom can quite happily spend a significant amount of time playing, without anybody missing their social input into civilisation.
(Oh and that attractive elfish maiden you've been chasing after IS probably a 43yr old oracle dba - you should listen to those little voices of doubt in future).
Why would the media be creating such myths saying that geeks are the only ones spending their countless hours on the internet playing games?
Let us take the great folks at CBS/Viacom/Infinity for our example. This is the same company that brings you Howard Stern, MTV, VH1, Nickelodeon. Why would they want people to be on the internet? Young kids should be watching Rocket Power, teenagers should be watching TRL and everyone else should be watching I love the 80s. That is unless you have work, then damnit you should be listening to Stern.
It's for nerds and dorks, too.
...Slashdot is first site to cover history's unprecedented case of Pot calling Kettle White. When contacted about this, both Pot and Kettle responded, "We're not white because there's lots of other Pots out there, too. They can't possibly all be Black, can they?"
-theGreater Ironicist.
Am I the only one who saw no collelation between the stats in the article and the "its just not geeks" results?
The first was that it was overwhelmingly male. Um, isn't that a classic "geek" stereotype? Maybe if the numbers were more 50/50 (like I assume The Sims are) I'd be a little more swayed.
Secondly is the predominance of "19 and older". Well gee, what do a lot of people do when they turn 18? Go to college and live with a fat broadband connection. I'd be more impressed if it said the mean age was 32 or something. But then age has nothing to do with geekiness.
In truth I can't think of a statistic off of the top of my head that could prove the geekiness of a gaming community. Probably the only one would be if the statistics were more normal (more ethnic, gender, income diversity, instead of being primarily white, primarily male, primarily middle class like most things geeky). It wasn't like this guy bugged a High School football lockerroom and heard them talk on and on about their 40th level elf sorcerers.
What is music when you despise all sound?
I'm not a big gamer, to say I play a game every two months would be optimistic. Having said that, I used to play slightly more, and the games I've seen the most promise in have been strategy type games.
Not purely for entertainment value, but for training. Simulations of activities that could ahve some real-world application. Surely this would be a better place for electronic games (or should we say, simulations/training programs, if games start taking root in this way) to be deployed?
The fact that not only geeks play Everquest is interesting, but I would like to see more progress being made in using games (and other digital tools) to further education. In a country like South Africa where the national Matric pass rate is as low as 55%, alternative education methods are desperately needed.
We hang the petty thieves, but appoint the great ones to public office. - Aesop
Seriously, these games deserve fda regulation more than say crack cocaine. I recently managed to break free and sell my account for dark age of camelot (www.darkageofcamelot.com). Finall tally? 142 DAYS played. (3408 hours). In this time i could've gotten a phd in nuclear phisics, or made 25 thousand dollars working at mcdonalds for minimum wage!
Friends don't let friends play these games....
This study is old news, guys. I saw a link to it months ago on everquest.allakhazam.com (obviously a fan site, quite a major one in fact); the "respected" scientist got no respect on that particular board.
I imagined them to be ordinary people who use computers in their spare time, not those who make a career out of it.
Apparently you're new to EQ. When you play EQ you have no spare time and it is your career. Your day job is just what you do to pay for your EQ habit.
with 15% of the respondents playing for more than 50 hours a week, and around 40% playing for 40 or more hours a week. When does it become a problem? When it hits 60 hours a week? 70?
Boy do I not feel vindicated. Ok, so all gamerrs are not geeks. How much did this guy get paid for this "study"? Sheesh.
Simple logic tells you this. Look at the console explosion. Over the years more and more people brought games into their homes. Usually through consoles. Not all of these people are "geeks". Some are too stupid to deserve that honor.
Still, we've had gaming in the household for over a generation now, it's plainly obvious that it's not just for geeks anymore. In fact, I know a stripper who plays MMOG's. Whenever I see her character online I can't decide if I should see if she wants to hunt loot, or if I should start masturbating and giving her all of my loot, but I digress...
Games make as much money as the movies, we are beyond the saturation point, and this is not news to anyone save for geeks and nerds who are certain that nobody understands them.
I'm a geek. I get a nice paycheck. Women are shallow. They like money. Come on guys, simple logic. Go score some snapper!
Grimwell - old, cranky, mean, obsessive
I thought we were all playing Shadowbane?
Hmm. People locking themselves away from human contact for hours at a time, day after day after day. Yeah, that really dispells the geek stereotype of videogamers.
Any other game, please! Average Joes play their Playstations these days, Sims sold more copies than I think there are pocket protectors on the planet, but...
Everquest? Is this guy nuts?
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
Please don't take away my comfortable sterotype! I will have to live to a higher social standard if jocks start to play EQ.
;-)
*cry*
Three to four hours of TV per night will turn your brain to cheese, people!
-kgj
Mmm... a uniformed girl with an assault rifle. Sexy...
Is anyone starting to see EQ as a problem?
I don't/won't play EQ because I know I could easily spend way too much time playing this game.
I don't many people who play EQ(I am married with children) But I do know a few, and from them and what I can tell
Are people getting serious addicted to EQ like a drug? I know people joke and call it EverCrack but
how big of a problem is it?
Are marriages, grades, family lives failing because of this game?
Well, I think this report is skewed.
This is trying to tell the world that online gamers are not geeks... when everyone knows that no matter who you are, the moment you get out on the net and start playing Everquest, well...
YOU HAVE JUST BECOME A GEEK. There are no normal people that have gone that far. Normal is waiting all week to see what happens on the next episode of Friends.
Everquest just ain't normal. Here's your membership card.
Instead, today's player is just as likely to be a well-paid professional - male or female - aged in their 40s
This shouldn't come as a surprise, geekiness doesn't have an age limit and it makes sense that the people that play subscription based games regularly actually have jobs and make decent money.
There isn't really anything surprising about the demographic that play these games. It also sounds like the guy who carried out the survey is trying to justify the his own "excessive" use of everquest (And he definitely is a geek, check out the pic).
Someone give Hemos a medal for this one.
Seriously, what's this all about? Someone just proved that EQ doesn't only spawn 16 y/o with a record of sexual harassment. Of course EQ has sane people, normal players and a whole wad of "John Doe"s running around, having fun (or not) in a non-offensive way. Same thing with CS. A bunch of people I know IRL play CS and lo and behold: They aren't complete idiots. One of them is probably one of the coolest and calmest people I've met thus far. Yet I myself still do associate CS with 14 year olds struggling for online acceptance by being creative with the english language and various symbols and numbers, while EQ still is a stereotypic hunting ground for 16 y/o kids suffering from pure hormone rage. It's not because things are like that; it's just because of the vocal majority of a game/community or the bad part which has been highlighted by others.
There's a difference between making fun of/using stereotypes and actually believing them.
Hate me!
41 hours a week isn't unhealthy? Of course it is! Plus the comparison to TV isn't accurate (4 hours times 7 days is only 28 hours.) To make a better comparison, it'd be like someone watching the same thing (such as QVC) for 41 hours a week. This guy is just trying to justify his and his friends addiction.
here.
Yes...People who comment on this stuff at /.
-1 (Troll) is antihammer
As others have pointed out the reason only older people play Everquest is because younger people don't have credit cards. If its pay to play you needs dough and a job.
Also, of course it's not only nerds playing. Video gaming has been mainstream since the NES. People from all walks of life have been playing video games since the 80s. That's not news. Tell me when non-nerds are using linux and I'll be shocked.
Lastly, Everquest does indeed suck.
this old slashdot article tells it like it is. End of story.
The problem with MMO games is that social factors directly influence gameplay. The people who make games only know how to deal with technological and game design problems. I strongly believe that there are no technological solutions to social problems.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
Everyone (myself included) loves to denigrate someone else's vices.
... I suppose that's every bit as brain-rotting as TV (except without the commercials) ....
....
Me, I play a fair bit of Unreal Tournament
Further confessions: everyone who has kicked a vice loves to denigrate those who still indulge. Me, I'm a former TV-holic
-kgj
it's almost a lost battle to tell them the differences between a hacker and a cracker. They just refuse to use the word cracker because it is not as "catchy" as hacker
Professor Griffiths said: "There is an image that people who play online games excessively are nerdy and geeky... This is not the case."
Says the beardy nerdy geek guy with nothing better to do of an evening that play on his computer!
The article stated that they were still going through the data, so the results are up in the air. Additionally the first author equated 3-4 hours of TV a night with ~40 hours a week of everquest, this is more like 8 hours a night. It is also unclear what this article has to say about geeks. The first author plays everquest and of course does not want to feel like a geek, heading a study of the psychology of everquest does not help his cause.
actually, he just stole my idea of using goldeneye on N64 as my doctoral thesis. It is titled "collaboration in the digital age: brains, brawn and Bond"
The single most important thing that - IMHO - makes EverQuest and other MMORPGs differ from chemical drugs is that it's far more selective. You really have to be inclined towards that type of game for it to become a problem. Me and others I know started playing some of those games, be it Ultima Online, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot or whatever and then just quit it after some time because we just didn't find the fun part in it in spite of being the exact stereotype (male single "nerds" with too much time on our hands).
A chemical drug that causes physical or psychical addiction does so far more indiscriminately; unless you've got a very strange metabolism, it'll get you. There surely are people that fall for the massive timesinks MMO games are, but I think their number is far less alarming and their problems are far easier to cure than, say, those of alcoholics. It's far less painful. You don't suffer pain or shiver all the time. You just feel like something was missing until one or two weeks later it's all over. I know there are "reports" of people deliberately having their credit card invalidated to make them quit, but there always are some nutcases that just can't stop.
Fight hunger. Filet a politician and send him to a 3rd world country of your choice.
The real-world economy sucks ass right now. For a layed-off techie, a MMORPG provides a much-needed escape from the glum world these days.
No different than people hitting the movie theatres in droves during the Great Depression.
I play EverQuest and if I am representative of the online community the psychologist is pretty much wrong.
... geeks and nerds.
Geeks and nerds, man
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
hackers? that word's almost as FUDged up as elmer's formerly gooed name.
geek? that's like somebodIEs who doesN'T know/care about anything that really matters, like staying alive?
IT? that's just another way for Godless stock markup felons to bullead J. on into the next big thing?
lookout bullow. the creator is participating. lookout bullow.
Many of us are geeky, sure. But we lead real, productive lives where we are IT security admins, high-end speaker designers, reps for Coca-Cola, nurses, health food store owners, etc. To dismiss us as geeks because we play Everquest fails to get to the heart of the matter. We live in disparate places, yet have come together from across the world to PLAY.
That's what we are doing, playing. That's it. When you are playing Everquest, you get a sense of accomplishment, companionship, even friendship that many times is lacking in real life. Now, many of you will say, why aren't you out doing things to help society and other such drivel; get your feeling of accomplishment from that. I can't speak for anyone else, but I have my hands and mind full all day from saving my own little corner of the world. Let me enjoy my freetime a little, okay.
The normal players have 1 account with maybe 3 or 4 characters.
The geeks have multiple accounts with multiple characters, which they use to help each other out. This requires the use of multiple computers, but hey, what geek doesn't have that?
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
if you made it this far, and are reading my post, you are a geek.
> A quarter of people who responded to the survey said they played for 41 hours or more. If that's the usage of a quarter, how many are playing the game for 20 hours a week or more? What else are you doing outside of your job if you're spending that much time on there?
Substitute television for Everquest and ask the question again. A large percentage of the population of the U.S. watches 40+ hours of TV per week. I personally watch less than an hour of television a week, and so does my wife. We spend our time together after the kids go to bed playing Everquest instead. It's actually much more social than what she did before, and if we feel like talking instead of playing, it's easier to turn away from it because you don't miss anything if you stop.
> Whatever anyone says about the skills developed by games such as EQ, there are important ones that may (that's "may", not "will") be allowed to wither on the vine, like the ability to interact well with others in social situations.
See above. it's a lot more interactive than what many people choose for relaxation.
> Having been one of these people who spent every waking hour in front of a monitor, when not at work, in the past I can't overstate too much the importance of getting out and interacting for real. The geeky stereotype comes about when you really are using EQ as a replacement for more social activities.
Agreed, but be careful about how you say that. As I stated above I and my wife (and most of our in-game friends) use it as a replacement for less social activities, and that's one of the things that this study is trying to put forward.
Virg
"It would seem Mark Davies, or Dark as we call him, is trying to give some credibility to his 72 hour stints playing evercrack" said his friend, editor, and level 40 assassin Helmitar, who also thinks he needs to take a shower, write an article about something other than Everquest, get a girlfriend who isn't pixilated, and a life. Dark's mother concurs, and says a 42 year old man, who does in fact have degree in psychology, needs to move out or start paying the power bill for his 6 machines he runs concurrently. His specialization was in justifying addictive behavior.
The subject says it all.
- -
Are you an SF Fan? Are you a Tru-Fan?
I was recently at an indusry convention in Las Vegas. As it turns out, the convention hotel, (Las Vegas Hilton) was hosting the Everquest 'Fan Faire' convention in the convention section of their hotel/casino.
On the last day of my convention (first day of theis), several EQ fan faire attendees sat down at my black jack table, and I can assure you, the stereotype is right on the money!
All your base are belong to us!
"Most people I know spend about 3-4 hours a night watching TV... so in many cases it is just a substitution of entertainment rather than some unfortunate development in their lifestyle."
I'd say 3-4 hours of TV/Everquest a night is certainly an unfortunate development in anybody's lifestyle. My God! I would have to break up my band, dump my girlfriend, stop riding my bike and sever ties with my family to make this much time.
In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. -Oscar Wilde
Agreed. I'm trying to imagine the parents of this respected psychologist saying "darn that kid, he should get outside and play with other kids." I have no respect for any psychologist who finds it acceptable for someone to sink 40 hours a week into a single video game. There's so much more to life than what comes on a 15-21 inch glowing screen with stereo speakers. I wonder whether the guy would say it is healthy for people to spend 40 hours a week having sex? I mean, "it's not an addiction, they just really like it?" 40 hours a week drinking or watching porn "it's not an addiction, they just really like it?" Okay, this guy obviously didn't read the slashdot article about the kid in Asia who died from dehydration/sleep deprivation/constipation because he played video games for 80 hours straight. Let's not forget that psychologists around the world think pedophilia is healthy for both parties. Is it any wonder that people who first get into psychology do so because of the "profound effect it has had on close family members?" A case has been made that this psychologist is a nutcase. 40 hours a week playing Yahoo! Towers is not an addiction, it is a nightmare. If you want social interaction at odd hours of the night, get a night job at a gas station. Pick the right neighborhood, and I guarantee you it will be exciting. -- Vexar (the original)
> Finall tally? 142 DAYS played. (3408 hours). In this time i could've gotten a phd in nuclear phisics, or made 25 thousand dollars working at mcdonalds for minimum wage!
Perhaps the PhD would need to wait until you took a course in remedial math. 3,408 hours is not nearly enough time for a doctorate, even if you count only classroom time. Also, assuming $7.00 an hour, which is far above minimum wage, you'd have cleared $23,800 before taxes, or about $20,000 net.
Besides, if you do nothing for leisure, studies have shown that you'll have health and psychological problems to deal with, so the money hit for therapy and medical care would probably put you in the red, not counting that you'd feel pretty sucky.
Virg
Yeah it may cost money for subscription of the game, but I also know a lot of people who trade/sell their characters, armours, and other items for money. In fact, they are making quite a bit of money from selling their goodies. Keep in mind, teenagers have lots of time to play. The more you pay, the more items you end up collecting. The more you sell, the more you make. I know some people turned to play EQ as a "part time job" because it is an entertaining source of income.
Sterotypes about shadowbane players still hold up.... yup all assholes.
I know many adults, teens, and kids that come home and watch TV straight away after work, school or whatever. They eat, fold laundry, ect in front of the TV, at 6 hours per day on average.
.
So if I think that there is nothing good on TV and decide to play everquest instead, an online game which actually allows me to interact with other people for 40 - 50 hours a week, this is a problem?
I do not think that the majority are geeks playing either. Last week I played with an 11 year old, and he was actually keeping up with our group of 23 year olds. I have also played with several 30+ players.
The point is you cannot just apply a general label and age class to anything in life without actual raw data. If sony would give you their demographic information, THEN you can make an argument on that data. I am not talking about the article I am talking about all you "non geek" slashdot readers, ( isn't that an oxy moron ) , that thing that geeks / dorks / virgins are the only ones playing games a lot, ( you forgot crank addicts, they game 280 hours a week )
I agree with Tsunamio's points about why Gaming is less brain-rotting than TV:
* No ads (no TV commercials, anyway);
* Not as passive.
* Social interaction
Indeed, computers generally less brain-rotting that TV -- certainly in the #2 sense: TV is passive, computing (gaming, websurfing, whatever) is active.
-kgj
I've never heard of anyone but geeks playing it. And how does one define "geek".
These guys seem like a bunch of geeks to me.
It was the first time I played a mmog. Then, after neglecting things over two weeks, I realized I was bored playing the game, and chatters are really really vain, and I really didn't like any of the people there, and the pace of the game kind of gave me a headache.
I had no life to begin with. I am a stay at home father, and i do things to peoples computers over the internet, and they give me money. Sometimes I go to the soccer field and fly my kites, but I live in Michigan, so I get to do that 3-4 months a year. Otherwise, I go to the YMCA twice a week and swim laps, to stay in shape.
the game playing continued until I went to grad school, where a significant amount of my time is now spent at my computer terminal (my thesis is computer focused). Now I find that when I go home I don't want to sit in front of a screen, even if the games graphics are nice and shiny and all.
I wonder if anyone else is like me and thinks that those people who spend more time on computers during their work-day are less interested in sitting at the computer when they come home, or if it is just the opposite?
Excuse me, doesn't it seem like the author of this "study," by playing the game himself, calls his findings (which read pretty much like simple opinions here) into question? If they'd done a story about a Zoloft study, do you think they might have asked some serious questions about the fact that the head scientist was taking Zoloft himself? Okay, so this is just a fluff story, but still, it's weird -- what stereotype is this debunking, anyway?
Let's see, what did the study find?
Is the big "shattered" stereotype that this person is supposed to be a "pimply teenager"? If you met a 40-something man without a significant other who spent 42 hours a week playing a female character online -- he's a Gnome illusionist who wears fetching custom chain mail ensembles -- what would you think? Would you think he wasn't a "geek" or a "nerd" because of his age and income?
(The BBC science staff seems to reprint press releases and call them reporting pretty often. I once told them a story about the anniversary of Prozac was uninformed, and they said "thanks" and promptly reworded the story -- as if they'd never heard of any other antidepressants until I mentioned it. On the one hand, they're responsive, but it makes you wonder about their editors...)
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
"The stereotypes and realities are often *very* different." Nope! It just confirms my stereotypes. middle aged males who can affrod the monthly fees.
I play EverQuest on a somewhat regular basis. In fact, I play it on my Linux box using Winex (www.transgaming.com)
Can I be accepted by the Slashdot community now? Please?
GET REAL GET SMART GET A BREASTPLATE OF THE VOID
...And you have to come to a point where you can say "I steal pants because I am too lazy to buy them on e-bay."
:CHARACTER MATTERS
We now return to the tavern where respected psychologist Dr Bloom Eternal helps everquest players through their personal difficulties:
TODAY'S SHOW: When having your pants stolen by your friends after you're dead hurts.
Dr Bloom Eternal:
Gorak_munchkin: I'm sorry Regolath! You were dead and I needed your pants. I couldn't just buy some because I only earn a pittance an hour at Chuck-e Cheese. I can't believe it's come to this. Me, over 19 and playing everquest for more than 50 hours a week as a woman even though I'm male and I still can't earn enough pp to get pants of my own! Bwahhaaaa!
Regolath_the_third: I accept that you need pants. You could have just asked for them. After all we were going on that quest to find Baldric Slezaf, or kill Baldric Slezaf or something so that you could get some platinum to cover your bare behind. I mean, waiting till I got killed by a barnacle bones was pretty low.
Dr Bloom Eternal: So you feel you're a victim?
Regolath_the_third: I HAD MY PANTS STOLEN!
Gorak_munchkin: If only I could kill some monsters. You'd think that after sacrificing so much simpsons watching time I'd be ok at combat.
Regolath_the_third: I should have stuck to progressquest
Dr Bloom Eternal: Now we're getting somewhere!
Gorak_munchkin: The bottom line is I just suck.
Dr Bloom Eternal: You do need to step up you guys need to negotiate. Obviously you're a good guy....I think you're just lazy, and you like to do things that feel good... I wouldn't care if you had 50,000 hours behind you if you could actually stay alive long enough to start the first part of a quest and you were taking care of your responsibilities as a party member. Isn't that the issue?
Regolath_the_third: Damn straight.
Gorak_munchkin: Hey! I resent the lazy tag. I'm not going to wear it.
Dr Bloom Eternal: In summary - it's not about the pants. It's about why are you not being any good.
BUY Dr BLOOM'S BOOKS AND TAPES:
Change your life with Dr Bloom's step by step advice.
Next Week:
Party dynamics: Could your party makeup be affecting your questing life? Maybe you shouldn't be entirely composed of bards.
The reason a lot of "geeks" like MMORPGs is the ability to be someone else; anyone else. While good role-playing isnt always easy to find online, there are a significant number of mature rpg fans that actually portray a character, not themselves. There are some "powergamers" that run around and just want to be the biggest and the baddest, but there are a substantial number of Dungeons and Dragons converts that value a well role-played [ read "acted"] scenario. Good role-playing is acting. Moreover its an creative and psycological outlet where you can express yourself through a persona you adopt, no strings attached. While some of the kiddies that like the MMORPGs will run around being 1337 Ub3r d00ds you'll find a more substantial community that value the social interaction, and even some combat with other mature role-players with distinctive characters.
Look, if you aren't at the driving range, taking lessons, or on the golf course 20+ hours a week while trying to break 100 or 72 then you are a geek. Nothing else qualifies.
I heard he has a vorpal couch.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
The 40+ hours a week was only a minority of the userbase, 25% surveyed. 75% play less. So, instead of playing with statistics, lets have a real discussion.
EverQuest - Not Just For Geeks?
Anyone who's played Everquest already knew this to be true....
You are correct, Everquest is subscription based. Normally, you'd use a credit card and have a recurring charge. However, whereever Everquest boxed CDs are sold, 90-day prepaid cards are also sold. You buy the card, input the card number in your EQ client, and your account is credited +3 months. In this way, you can pay for EQ with cash.
Perhaps EQ's subscription system keeps younger folks from playing, but I don't think it has that great of an effect. I know plenty of EQers who are 15-18.
As a player myself, I feel the conclusions are more or less correct. There are those who're only concerned with loot, and they also tend to be immature, argumentative, and disagreeable. They tend to be younger. There're those who act very mature and are excellent friends. They tend to be older. Personally, however, one of my best EQ friends is 15 (a surprise when he said so) and I've delt with some real horses asses who had families and dayjobs.
And I'm a recovering EverQuest addict.
I've got 4 months now. And I'm finally getting my life back together.
( BWAHAHAHAHAHAH.... Sad but true ).
Last one in jail is a fascist.
> with 15% of the respondents playing for more than 50 hours a week, and around 40% playing for 40 or more hours a week. When does it become a problem? When it hits 60 hours a week? 70?
This question points up the real problem with the general public's view of the phenomenon. There's no set time for when it's a problem, despite what anyone wants to say. It becomes a problem when it starts to overarch the parts of one's life that cannot suffer the infringement. While one person can handle playing 50 hours a week, another might have problems with 15. For example, an early-twenties person who is not married and has no other social obligations could play for 40 hours a week, keep up with work and still have a full social life. Another person with a house and two kids might suffer ill effects if he put more than 10 hours a week into the game. Or perhaps instead of bowling or watching TV he chooses to spend his leisure time online. That's the difficulty with saying that 40 or 50 or 60 hours a week is a "problem". These times mean nothing without the context of a particular person's lifestyle and time constraints.
Virg
What is the definition of a geek anymore? I consider myself to be somewhat of a geek. I love technology, I'm always jackin with software, hardware, phones, PDAs, etc.
Are geeks pasty faced teenagers, that rarely bath and wouldn't know laundry detergent if it hit them in the face?
I think everyone is a geek in their own sense. I think geekyness is good.
EMBRACE GEEKYNESS! =)
They discovered that playing EQ doesnt cause people to have no social life or stop bathing for days at a time. Apparently, EQ just tends to attract people who are already predisposed to such behavior.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
actually think everquest was populated just by geeks? most proplr I know that play would not be considered a geek at all. Unless play EQ in anf of itself qualifies you for geek status, and I sure as hell hope it doesn't.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
And 15% play 50 hours or more a week or more. So you can extropoate that the average (mean) user plays 60% of that time.
Half of Everquest players played 24 hours or more. This fits in with his justification that "Most people I know watch 3-4 hours of TV a day" (21-27 hours / week.) This is still unhealthy.
Back when Ultima Online first came out, i noticed that the stereo type didn't apply anymore. When I played we quickly had a group of 20 or so people who played together all the time. We ranged from an 11year old and his father to an 79 year old retired fellow. And just about everything in between. And to top it all off we even had a marriage in the group who met in the game.
sure it sucked you in, but then again, what hobby doesn't?
Being called a dork on Slashdot must be like being called the retard in special ed.
I had a college instructor for a writing class once, and what she said the first day of class i'll never forget:
"I will try to get your assignments graded and back to you ASAP, but I must confess I am an avid gamer and Diablo II addict, so please, let me know if I forgot to get something back to you."
My jaw immediately dropped, along with my stereotypes of gamers (especially in the RPG/adventure genre) only being geeky males. A late 20's/early 30's female instructor with no telltale signs of any gaming/geekiness threw me for a huge surprise.
This is similar in the results as the survey data we did of open source developers. The stereotypes and realities are often *very* different.
Does anyone besides the open source developers themselves actually believe this? We must embrace these stereotypes and dispel the myth of the 'cool techie', an artefact of pre-1998.
I play - My Wife Plays --- She has never played any computer/console games before, but she likes Everquest...
I'm 31, and she is 29. Add us to the stereotypes...she works in a hospital and I'm a network Admin(ok im a geek i guess)
-D
I'd bet that Star Wars Galaxies will attract a whole new crowd of people into MMO games who may not have considered them before. SWG puts less emphasis on fighting, since loot from MOBs are less valuable than crafter-built items. A lot of effort has been invested in the game's economy, making activities like harvesting resources, farming, and crafting all full-time activities which can be done exclusively or as a part-time activity in addition to "blowing things up".
Also there are a couple of new classes which I haven't seen in other MMORPGs. There are two "entertainer" classes which heal "mind" wounds. They are dancers, and musicians. People in these classes can even group up to multiply their healing effects.
I can see perhaps some aspects of this game attracting a much broader audience who don't fall into the traditional AD&D/fantasy geek crowd. It should be interesting to note how the gender/age numbers differ between EQ and SWG once SWG has a couple of years on it.
[goes back to checking email to see if he got an SWG beta invite yet]
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How about 40 hours a week reading? Or 40 hours a week painting? Why are these activities - which are arguably LESS social - seen as better than 40 hours a week chatting with friends. That's basically what online RPG's amount to. :P
If you are going to argue that 40 hours a week at BLAH is too much, then please start lobbying for those 25 hour work weeks. After all, I can't think of anything that interferes with my life more than those blasted 40 hours/week at work.
blue
Edward Castronova wrote a paper a while back concerning emerging economic theory within virtual worlds.
The paper goes into much greater detail about the type of people who play MMORPGs than the BBC article. In addition to a short history of MMORGSs, he also gives his thoughts on the future of avatars as our means of shopping/working/interacting.
"Journal entry, 18 April. I have called my avatar 'Alaniel.' I land in Norrath for the first time, in a town called Freeport. I am standing in a stone courtyard behind a gate. I see several lean-tos and a firepit. All around I hear the sounds of footsteps and I see humanoids of various shapes and sizes running back and forth, names like "Zikon" and "Sefirooth" over their heads, wearing odd costumes, carrying strange implements. Are they people? Or merely beings created by the software? Statements flow into my chat box at a rapid rate. "Galadriel shouts: Looking for bind at gate." I see a being with the name Galadriel. Is he talking to me? What is he saying? "Friitz says out of character: brt -omwb." What? No sign of anyone named Friitz. "Ikillu auctions: WTS bone chips." An auction. What should I do? I feel the presence of humanity, but I suddenly feel like a stranger in a very foreign culture. I become afraid of breaking some taboo, of making a fool of myself. Clumsily, I maneuver Alaniel toward the nearest lean-to and hide behind it. No one can see me here." (Castronova, p.2, Virtual Worlds, 2001)
Opinions were like kittens, I was giving them away.
it is healthy to spend 40 hours a week having sex. barring any relationship-related woes, which could cause psychological trauma & stress, as long as your partners are disease free & proper precautions are in place, there's no better exercise. there are few situations more social than sexual intercourse.
"Life is great; without it, you'd be dead." -Harmony Korine
The question would be better answered by putting a random sampling of Everquest players' pictures up at geekornot.com.
I mean, didn't any of you guys know that Curt Schilling, one of the star pitchers for the Arizona Diamondbacks, is an avid Everquest fan? Last I heard, his character was a level 50 monk, and he even wrote a review of the latest Everquest release for some gaming magazine.
Geek he's not. I mean, at least he gets exercise and goes outside regularly.
Yeah keep telling yourself that, NERD!
gb2a
Sigs are awesome huh?
"But just when we thought this scene had quieted down, along came the folks from Sony Online, the corporate father of EverQuest, to fire it back up again. Inspired by Week in Review's coverage, the Sony people invited Schilling and Glanville to battle each other last week in an official Event, with actual witnesses.
So the next thing we knew, Glanville reported to Week in Review he'd just finished "mopping the floor" with Schilling on the computerized battlefield, with an assist from Phillies catcher Todd Pratt, whom he'd invited along.
Sounded simple enough -- until Schilling's version was a slightly different: 'Doug got the beating he deserved.' According to Schilling, Glanville induced him into a battle with Pratt -- and only then 'backstabbed me like the true, leaf-eating wuss he is.'
There was something in there about how Glanville did later beat him one-on-one. But that, Schilling alibied, was due to a 'computer glitch.'"
nonsig. unsig. desig.
d
If he only was earlier. EQ is pretty much dead. SOE messed up the game pretty mad and etc. Then Star Wars Galaxies, World of Warcraft, Shadowbane, Dark Ages of Camelot around (SWG WoW and SB isnt live yet) and is based more on social stuff than powerplay. I had 194 days played before I finaly had the guts to quit (I actually sold my account for 450 USD and got some comfort at least for the lost time).
But to sum up the tragical above. Online games are not just for geeks. There are all sorts of people playing it.
80 hours straight gaming is an entirely different story than 40 casual hours in a 7-day week gaming. If somebody's a gamer, a true gamer, they'll spend 40 hours a week, maybe more on gaming and weather or not that's on 1 game or 20 shouldn't make a difference. Gaming is something many people enjoy, myself, I enjoy computer hardware, tweaking computer hardware, and learning new things/discussing that hardware, which I in turn use to play a couple hours of UT2K3 at a LAN Party on the weekends. Are you going to call me "unhealthy" or tell me go "get out more" just because I enjoy doing something? If people enjoy EQ (and even I have had times where I've been addicted to the game, if only for it's conversing and fun engaging gameplay experience), let them play it. It is only those who play a game 80 hours straight that have problems.
Point the first:
One class at my whack-ass college had two sessions per week, two hours long each, for three credit hours. Semesters lasted 15 weeks. Using that, and assuming 15 credits per semester, that's (2*2*15)*5= 300 class hours per semester. Taking his number of 3408, which whack-ass college can you name that will issue a doctorate after six years (12 semesters)?
Point the second:
True enough. Point conceded.
Point the third:
Everquest is no more nor less a time sink than any other hobby one could spend time on, and is more social than a number of hobbies I can think of. And no, you don't detect an Evercrack addict. I put in about 10 hours a week, because that's all my schedule will allow. I am, however, touchy about it, because of people like you who imply (with a wink that you think makes your barb somehow less irritating) that if one is at all involved in Everquest, one is necessarily overinvolved in Everquest.
Virg
My problem has been boredom. When the whole point of the game is killing pixels the it is fun for about the first month assuming of course you make friends. Often it seems there is an overabundance of artificial aspects of the game, levels being just one example. I would like to see a real RPG that focuses on the immersion more than anything else. Instead of having the treadmill of character and associated item levels have a real dynamic economy. Instead of endless raids upon the insta-spawn "dungeons" that serves no real purpose make sure you can actually have a goal beyond the pixel killing.
I imagine that in the not to distant future we will see MMOG's that will fill niches. For those who want hack-n-slash they will have it. For strategy folks, they will have theirs. RPG'ers will hopefully find games that you can be in the game who you want to be. Hoards of "monsters" will not just stand around aimlessly waiting to be killed and will attack in mass if you run up and start attacking one (just watch animals). This will result in bitching that "I can't go solo" which is good. Form a team or train in how stealth... use tactics my friend. Since the point of the game is not combat itself (combat is treated as a means) then there should not be a problem.
no not the company... but your last sentence is pure gold. Women really are (as a whole) and interesting creature. They bitch and complain about shallow men and yet are the very ones that CREATE shallow men. Everyone knows that nice guys generally finish last. It is because of the women that this came to be known and yet those same women later bitch about (hell they do it simultaneously) about how men are such pigs. Well, I've been on both sides of the fence and I remember once I just told this "friend" who was all complaining about evil men that perhaps she should shut the hell up and go with the first "nice guy" she knew (not me, I had a gf at the time) and ball him like there was no tomorrow. She actually did it and it turned out well. She broke the chain and was rewarded.
Sounds like my comment hit a nerve with someone.
I find fault with a gamer's lifestyle. Video games consume waay too much time. An aversion to the decadent society, I suppose. There's nothing admirable about it. Don't tell me you go to family reunions and start blathering on to relatives you rarely see about how you spend 40 hours a week playing video games, and yet don't find the time to correspond with them. It's about priorities. Video games are immensely more important than writing a letter to grandma once a month? BTW, I'm no saint, nor am I a gamer. I like collaborative environments a fair bit, and have been involved in them since Regenesis in '92, but it is more about making something with other people. Collaborative art/programming, not mob-slaying.
Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. There are many examples
of outsiders who eventually overthrew entrenched scientific orthodoxies,
but they prevailed with irrefutable data. More often, egregious findings
that contradict well-established research turn out to be artifacts. I have
argued that accepting psychic powers, reincarnation, "cosmic conciousness,"
and the like, would entail fundamental revisions of the foundations of
neuroscience. Before abandoning materialist theories of mind that have paid
handsome dividends, we should insist on better evidence for psi phenomena
than presently exists, especially when neurology and psychology themselves
offer more plausible alternatives.
-- Barry L. Beyerstein, "The Brain and Conciousness:
Implications for Psi Phenomena".
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