Hybrid Robot Uses Rat Brain

CowboyRobot writes "After two recent stories of artificial brains used to control rats and one about MIT doing the reverse, NYTimes now has a piece on similar work done at Georgia Tech From the article: "...the layer of rat neurons is grown over an array of electrodes that pick up the neurons' electrical activity. A computer analyzes the activity of the several thousand brain cells in real time to detect spikes produced by neurons firing near an electrode." But this time you can buy one for $3,000."

Comments

karma whore

[Anonymous Coward]

Wired to the Brain of a Rat, a Robot Takes On the World
By ANNE EISENBERG

The nerve center of a conventional robot is a microprocessor of silicon and metal. But for a robot under development at Georgia Tech, commands are relayed by 2,000 or so cells from a rat's brain.

A group led by a university researcher has created a part mechanical, part biological robot that operates on the basis of the neural activity of rat brain cells grown in a dish. The neural signals are analyzed by a computer that looks for patterns emitted by the brain cells and then translates those patterns into robotic movement. If the neurons fire a certain way, for example, the robot's right wheel rotates once.

The leader of the group, Steve M. Potter, a professor in the Laboratory for Neuroengineering at Georgia Tech, calls his creation a Hybrot, short for hybrid robot.

"It's very much a symbiosis," he said, "a digital computer and a living neural network working together."

Dr. Potter has been building the system of hardware, software, incubators and rat neurons that constitute the Hybrot since 1993, when he was a postdoctoral student at the California Institute of Technology. He and his group have not only introduced the neurons to the world outside their dish; the team has also closely monitored minute changes that take place in the shape and connections of the neurons as they are stimulated, using techniques like time-lapse photography and laser imaging.

Dr. Potter hopes that close observation of how brain cells behave as they are exposed to a world of sensation will help researchers understand the way small groups of neurons go about learning. "If the network begins to get better at a job," he said, "we will watch what changed within the network to allow it to do that."

Dr. Jonathan Wolpaw, laboratory chief and professor of neuroscience at the Wadsworth Center of the New York State Department of Health and the State University of New York at Albany, said that Dr. Potter's research could yield a simple system for exploring the capacity of neurons and circuits to change based on incoming activity.

"These changes could be analogues of what happens in learning," Dr. Wolpaw said. "You are dealing with neurons, the same tissue as in a brain," although in a different setting and with different circuitry. "Some things presumably are in common, for example, the neuron's capacity for plasticity," he said.

In Dr. Potter's hybrid system, the layer of rat neurons is grown over an array of electrodes that pick up the neurons' electrical activity. A computer analyzes the activity of the several thousand brain cells in real time to detect spikes produced by neurons firing near an electrode.

A silver three-wheeled model of the robot is commercially available through the Swiss robotics maker K-Team (www.k-team.com) for about $3,000 and is about the size of a hockey puck. It trundles along at a top speed of one meter per second.

"We assign a direction of movement, say, a step forward, that is automatically triggered by a pattern of spikes," said Thomas DeMarse, a former member of Dr. Potter's group who is an assistant professor in the department of biomedical engineering at the University of Florida. "Twenty of these patterns, for instance, means 20 rotations of the wheel."

As the robot moves, it functions as a sensory system, delivering feedback to the neurons through the electrodes. For example, Mr. DeMarse said, the robot has sensors for light and feeds electrical signals proportional to the light back to the electrodes. "We return information to the dish on the intensity of light as the robot gets closer and the light gets brighter."

The researchers monitor the activity of the neurons for new signals and new connections. Dr. Potter said that the feedback mechanism was crucial to the functioning of the neural network. In traditional, isolated cultured networks, he said, in which neurons are not connected to a body, the activity patterns of the neurons are la

Re:karma whore

[joelil]

Orkin in Very Intrested..... Just think program 3 rats to invade a house. and then just wait for the phone call to get rid of the rats get paid and have the rats move next door.....

Re:karma whore

[Oscar_Wilde]

Just think program 3 rats to invade a house. and then just wait for the phone call to get rid of the rats get paid and have the rats move next door.....

Dont bother trying to patent this, the Pied piper has prior art...

Re:karma whore

[LauraScudder]

This guy came to talk at my college a few years ago, and his research is super-cool. At the time he mostly talked about trying to interpret what the cell firing patterns mean when the cells are totally isolated and then began adding single inputs, etc. Its neat cause when you cut them off from input they go into this pattern of waves of firing - they'll be these pauses with one or two random firings and then a all the sudden they'll all fire for a few seconds before dying down. He proposed that this was just like how a normal brain freaks out during sensory deprivation. Good to see that he's expanding on with some really badass research. This has the possibility of learning a lot about how neural connections grow in response to input. Plus it sounds kinda neat to have a rat-neuron driven robot. Now if only we could hear from that doctor studying human balancing to make better robots.

Re:karma whore

[Ratphace]

Guess this will bring an all new meaning to the phrase:
"Behold! The power of cheese." :)

Re:karma whore

[MrScience]

When I was growing up, my parents called in an exterminator for rats. He reeeealy wanted to sell us the "whole treatment." Several refusals later, he left with a smile. We were trying to get rid of roaches for years after that (and we hadn't had any problem before).

Re:karma whore

[Antisthenes]

What's the point of karma whoring if you don't log in? If this post was meant to be a humble act of service, then you probably wouldn't call yourself a whore. But if you're calling yourself a whore anonymously, all we can assume is that you don't want people to know about the perverted double life you're leading.

Human brains

[krisp]

How long until I can buy one of these for myself? Seems like something I'd like broadcast over the internet.

Re:Human brains

[uncoveror]

All this Frankenstein science is leading us to a very dark future. How long before they turn us all into remote control human drones?

Re:Human brains

[Planesdragon]

How long before they turn us all into remote control human drones?

Who are "they", and why would they bother spending the money on remote-control when they can just lawsuit- and reality-TV- us into submission?

Hmmm...

[CommieLib]

I thought this was a story about Al Gore.

Re:Hmmm...

[Nine Of Mirrors]

Yah. I'd sure like to ...amplify my body (if it's in an aesthetically appealing way). But seeing how everything will likely be based on 'testure'/experimentation, I'll probably end up as the last surviving specimen of Homo Sapiens Technophobiensis or something. Can't anyone tell me how to boycott the modern world without getting offline?

Until the /. effect happens

[gatesh8r]

Then you'd have a stroke, be knocked offline, and if you're lucky you'd be back surfing as Windows XP Home.

Re:Until the /. effect happens

[the9thbit]

Since it feeds off of input, wouldn't a /. effect be like some super orgasim?

Correction

[avalys]

You can buy a copy of the robot base they are using, but it doesn't include the cybernetic rat brain.

Re:Correction

[Zurk]

yep. thats the problem with all this research....everyone who does it doesnt share their results. wheres the models for the function reponse of the rat neurons ? the electrical interface to the cells ? the procesedure and problems encountered ?
By the time anyone publishes results its years and progress has already moved on. the scientific system should be overhauled methinks. this research is critical and interesting enough that lots of people would be ahppy to contribute significantly if it was easy to obtain. a coupla thousand geeks playing with biological-electronic hybrids could do more than a bunch of researchers at a single university or two.

Re:Correction

[tfoss]

yep. thats the problem with all this research....everyone who does it doesnt share their results.

Alright, I call bullshit on this. First off, you are reading about aren't you? They *are* sharing results, and better than that, they are talking to wide circulation general press. This means their research is exposed to an audience greater than the same conference crowd that they run in.

wheres the models for the function reponse of the rat neurons ? the electrical interface to the cells ? the procesedure and problems encountered ?

Well for a first approximation, at least look at the guy's web page. Notice the section labeled publications & abstracts. Secondly, if you are actually interested on a real level, talk to the guy. I am sure he would love to talk about his research (thats one thing that always tickles scientists, especially academics).

By the time anyone publishes results its years and progress has already moved on.

Welcome to manuscript writing, submitting, responding to reviews, re-submitting, publishing. It is slow by its very nature. You can't help it, and actually it's a damn good thing, peer-review is what makes science valid and useful. Without that science becomes nothing but bad journalism (remember cold fusion?).

the scientific system should be overhauled methinks.

Ok, what is your suggestion? Until you have an idea how to improve, your bitching is basically meaningless blather.

this research is critical and interesting enough that lots of people would be ahppy to contribute significantly if it was easy to obtain.

Ok, first of all while this research is certainly interesting, good basic research, a good foundation for the future, critical i think not. HIV research, cancer research, public safety research, hell, the stuff my lab does are all far, far more critical. As for many people contributing significantly, that can work for open source coding. It's quite different doing science. There is a reason you spend an extra 5 years in grad school after college before you really start contributing to these kinds of topics. They are complex and difficult to understand, they require a great level of scientific understanding and experience. And here's the thing, if it was easy to obtain, then it wouldn't require high-level research to examine it.

a coupla thousand geeks playing with biological-electronic hybrids could do more than a bunch of researchers at a single university or two.

Yeah, right. You've no clue how complex, difficult, and expensive this kind of research is. Have you ever grown neuronal cells? It's quite a bit harder than raising a bunch of sea monkeys. Even supposing you could package a Pocket Pal Rat-brain-cell-silicon-interface system, you still have to have the understanding of what the hell is actually going on. This isn't your high-school science fair project.

High-level research is high-level for a reason. Science is hard.

-Ted

Re:Correction

[UberDork]

email me for grey-market rat brains. Up to 90% off retail!!!

This offer can't last!

Re:Correction

[Anonymous Coward]

a coupla thousand geeks playing with biological-electronic hybrids could do more than a bunch of researchers at a single university or two.

-=[HAXX0R]=-: look dood, my rat runz lunix!
******L4M3RZ: w00t
-=[HAXX0R]=-: oh it died

Re:Correction

[Alsee]

doesn't include the cybernetic rat brain.

You could always use a couple of thousand of your own brain cells :)

-

Re:Correction

[Dachannien]

I can't spare any! I need them for beer consumption.

Re:Correction

[doublem]

Brilliant reply. You hit a lot of my pet peeves.

"Expertise is difficult to acquire. Those who do not have an expertise think it's easy to become and expert, and have no respect for the real experts." -Howard Schechter

Regardless of my intelligence, I know the kind of research these people are doing is beyond my training.

Now, if they need a SQL Server Administrator I can do quite a bit to help them. :)

Re:Correction

[mrmeval]

Well we'll need someone to install Neural Linux [*] which would probably be running a kernel variant neural-linux-8.2.0 created by "Linus in a Jar" [*] in a parallel array with several hundred thousand "Developers in a Jar". Yes, they will be eternal.

The SQL server would of course be "Bureaucrat in a Jar" and requires a virtual budget, virtual perks and a plentiful supply of virtural 3 hour lunches to install.

"Neural Linux" and "Linus in a Jar" are the properties of Linus Torvalds & Linus Torvalds & Linus Torvalds...

Re:Correction

[Pieroxy]

The only reasons the open source community has been able to do what they currently do is:

• The internet, great communication media.
  
• The complexity of OS/Apps has grown slower than the power of development tools and now, writing a Unix kernel/driver/http server/mail server... or other is at hand for any geek sufficiently motivated.

That's the only reason. Since there is no way this guy is going to apprehend the topics you do in your labs in less than 5 years of hard studies (ok, 4 if he is very smart), the open source model just cannot work.

Though I agree with him on one thing: The internet is out there for you guys to share anything. But I do think you already know that!

Why is it always rats?

[aeinome]

Whatever happened to the stereotypical guniea pigs? I think we should put their brains in robots, and see what happens.

Re:Why is it always rats?

[MsGeek]

Don't do it to poor defenseless cavies! However, I understand that the combination of a cat brain in a kick-ass robot body is pretty cool.

Re:Why is it always rats?

[corbettw]

Yeah, I thought scientists had switched to lawyers by now. Afterall, there are some things even a rat wouldn't do.

Re:Why is it always rats?

[ajs318]

Perhaps it's because they want a robot that will do more than move about slowly and occasionally start shrieking loudly for no reason, and end up needing its arse squeezing when its bowel muscles pack up after a couple of years?

Re:Why is it always rats?

[Orne]

In the words of Dennis Leary, "We only want to save the cute animals, don't we?"

Cool

[ScottMaxwell]

This will be very useful in my plan to create a giant killer robot with the brain of a rat.

Does this remind anyone else of the Simpsons episode where they go to Itchy and Scratchy Land?

Artificial retina

[BWJones]

If you could create a multi-laminar structure, this setup might be ideal for an artificial retina. Currently, the bionic retinas being used are nowhere near as sensitive as they need to be to create any useful phototransduction, even if the neural retinal substrate underneath remained intact (which it does not). A multilaminar device could sandwich photosensitive elements combined with neural substrates that would function as the neural interface to the output of the retina, the remaining ganglion cells.

Re:Artificial retina

[.com b4 .storm]

The only word I understood in that whole thing was "sandwich." :) Mmmm Subway...

Re:Artificial retina

[nounderscores]

That's a really good idea. Macular degeneration and glucoma rob people of their sight all the time. if you could regrow the retina on an engineered substrate you could give them better eyes than they were born with. Tally Isham is coming.

Re:Artificial retina

[Keighvin]

I recently read an article where a pair of scientists are now working on 3D printing techniques using living cells as their ink on a temperature sensitive material that easily melts away afterward, allowing them to create more potentially more complex shapes of tissue samples. Integration of electronic components at a building stage like this would be earily simple (relatively speaking).

Re:Artificial retina

[NeurobotD]

You should take a look at Marcus Meister's work using Salamander retina's on MEAs. Very interesting work to understand what processing occurs at the level of the retina. Your right, however, that the vision prosthetics are a long way off..

Re:Artificial retina

[BWJones]

You should take a look at Marcus Meister's work using Salamander retina's on MEAs.

MEA's........I assume you mean multi electrode arrays?

Very interesting work to understand what processing occurs at the level of the retina.

We are RC members of ARVO. Retinal circuitry and function is what we do normally. However, in the last two years, we have been working in retinal degeneration and exploring what happens to the neural retina.

Your right, however, that the vision prosthetics are a long way off..

Perhaps 40 years. However, progress is being made using biological approaches that will prove more successful than current non-biological ideological approaches.

Re:Artificial retina

[NeurobotD]

You know your jargon. Yes multi-electrode arrays. You are probably already aware of Meister's work then. If not here is a reference to look at: Meister, M.(1996). Multineuronal codes in retinal signaling, Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A,93, 609-14. I am the postdoc in Steve Potter's Lab who did that work on the neurally controlled robots. I am now at Univ. of Florida continuing that work among others.. Your right, however, that the vision prosthetics are a long way off.. I aggree. It will be sometime. There are some crude devices out there, but none seem to last more than a few months without signal degradation. The key will be to find ways to improve on this using both biological and technological approaches in my opinion. It is really good to see a lot more researchers working on these areas. Hopefully that will speed up the time in which we can make a difference in peoples lives (aka restoring sight to someone that cannot see, or to restore movement, seems to me to be the best goal one can have).

Put the rat in the iron!

[showmeshowyoukikoman]

I think rats can resist extreme heat. What about using this rat brain to control the blob of iron we are sending to the middle of the earth? That was an interesting headline to be sure. As is this one.

Who knew they were transplanting rat brains into aibo robot dogs!

Back in the day, we used to talk about robots. But for us, it was always a frightening thing. Then saturday night live did a commercial about robots stealing our medicine! Believe you me, THAT had me scared for a while! I know it was satire, but it's not hard to imagine robots living off the powerful medicines we old people use!

Re:Put the rat in the iron!

[Joe Tie.]

I know it was satire, but it's not hard to imagine robots living off the powerful medicines we old people use!

Oh no! You missed the warning at the end, that people denying the existence of robots may themselves be robots. They've been lying to us, time to ruuuuunnn!

Re:Put the rat in the iron!

[voot]

You should get the insurence then so that you can protect your selfs from robots.

Revenge of the Lab Rats

[Coelacanth]

Not that this isn't cool and all, but:

I don't want to be around when this thing becomes aware enough to take retribution for countless generations of lab rat torture! Someone will stumble into the lab and find a scientist's brain wired into a speak-n-spell, with a rat-bot-shaped hole in the wall and a trail of cheese crumbs...

Re:Revenge of the Lab Rats

[WetCat]

Imagine a Beowulf cluster of THOSE!
Armed by military lasers and automatic guns.

Re:Revenge of the Lab Rats

[davidstrauss]

Someone will stumble into the lab and find a scientist's brain wired into a speak-n-spell, with a rat-bot-shaped hole in the wall and a trail of cheese crumbs...

Or how about a "rabbot" shaped hole in the wall of a lab? This post reeks of a ripoff of the pilot episode of Aqua Teen Hunger Force.

Re:Revenge of the Lab Rats

[Sanga]

Hmmm I heard a different story from ArthurDent ... he went on about mice and the lost planet of Magrathea.

Obligatory Penny Arcade

[Metallic Matty]

"Here's another one: 'More brains, and bring back Hawaiian Fridays'"

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2002-05 -03&res=l

how soon...

[Anonymous Coward]

until it can be a slashdot moderator?

I think it'd be perfect (aka simple minded).

Quick

[Timesprout]

Some find a pied piper. Should cause absolute mayhem in the lab as all the robots take off out the door simultaneously.

Obvious Matrix comment

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoa! I know Rat-Fu.

The rats name isn't...

[marcushnk]

Shodan is it??

Reminds me of 'Care Dog meets Pee Bear'

[spun]

You remember good old Care Dog, from Care-a-Lot town? If not, take a look at Care Dog meets Pee Bear over at the Curch of the Subgenius.

Specifically, the part at the end:

When his body finally died, they used a new machine which could keep his brain alive indefinitely, perhaps even forever. It was hailed as a tremendous medical breakthrough, but Care Dog didn't know he was famous -- for he could neither hear nor see nor smell nor feel, but could only hurt.

Pinky & the Brain

[jstroebele]

Pinky : "Gee, Brain what do you want to do tonight?"
Brain : "The same thing we do every night Pinky. Try to take over the world!"

This is odd

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

This rat-to-robot or robot-to-rat research thing is strange. Two things spring to mind :

- Isn't this rat brain interfacing business just a clever way of saying "ahem, moving right along" after decades of general-purpose AI research failure ?

- What the hell do these people target rats that much ? don't mice do the trick too ? or cats or dogs ? Some years ago, bio-computer interfacing experiments were conducted with squids, because they have very large neurons that are easy to work with : have squids complained to the PETA ? or maybe some of these researchers have pest have family members who work in the rats control business.

Re:This is odd

[LemurShop]

WHAT? CATS AND DOGS? not the cute puppies and the sweet fluffie kitties! Rats are really ugly and icky, you just go ahead son, but not those cute animals that can do silly little human things with their hands oh my. You sir are a monster! An inhuman freak with no respect to cute animals that look nice on peoples houses, uh, i mean nature, and all of god's animals. yeeeeah thats exactly what i mean. Yes, this is off topic. But i might as well vent a little.

Re:This is odd

[BWJones]

What the hell do these people target rats that much ? don't mice do the trick too ?

Rats have much larger brains and visual pathways than do mice, so surgery and implants of bionic and biological devices is spatially easier. The advantage that mice have right now is the genetic resources and databases that currently are not available to the same extent as for rats.

Re:This is odd

[vandan]

Why rats?
I suppose rats are seen as disposable.
With the current world situation (Iraq, Palestine, Tibet, Cuba ......) does this really surprise you?
Rats don't conjure up as much emotion as squids - squids have a kinda unique, rare quality about them.

I assume the researchers would not approve of using their children's brains in their experiments. According to science and capitalism, the right to life and freedom from torture is directly proportional to the intelligence and wealth of the individual.

Re:This is odd

[GriffX]

Plus, the mice own the Earth. Best not to mess with them, right?

Re:This is odd

[IamLarryboy]

Since when does having a better chance at being selected for a science experiment that will probably kill you count as an "advantage?"

Re:This is odd

[FroMan]

I know you have a touch of sarcasm here, but there is a reason they often use rats.

How long does it take to make more rats and what is the cost to make them.

Compare to dogs and cats now.

It is simpley cheaper and the generations of rats are very high speed. So, not, its not that there is an emotional attachment, it is simpley faster.

Re:This is odd

[MellowTigger]

Indeed. I had a pet rat once that grew ill. I took it to the vet for treatment. He told me that he didn't see people bring in their pet rats. (Cheap rat, expensive medicine.) He also said that there's not much he can do for them because they know a lot about how to make rats ill but not very much about how to make them well again. It was an interesting opinion to hear from a veterinarian. (He helped my rat that day, but she died soon afterward.)

Re:This is odd

[Telastyn]

Since the scientists will still need more rats, it improves the likelyhood that they will let you breed.

A good thing methinks.

Re:This is odd

[LemurShop]

I know, im just sick and tired of people that only want to save the cute animals. ;)

Re:This is odd

[FroMan]

Says the cute little lemur, who know's s/he won't be tested on.

Re:This is odd

[LemurShop]

yes im a cute little lemur, i do little human things with my arms! i wear tiny little suits! dont test lipstick on me for toxics please :~)

NyTimes, Eh

[moosesocks]

Seems fitting that NYTimes ran a story on this. How long before we start to see these things in NYC subway tunnels?

Re:NyTimes, Eh

[kp833]

NYTimes, ha? is this the same news paper which employs the reporter who manufactures stories? duh!

time to watch T2 again

[stock]

In Terminator 2 , which at the time seemed a fiction only story, its the cyberdyne chip which enables people to create these robots. 2 Robots (terminator's) fly back in time to get things straight. the good one wants to destroy the cyberdyne chip and the evil one wants to prevent that.

Now we have a rat's brain doing the cyberdyne chip part. Well we all know what a rat behaves like. the cyberdyne chip inside Arnold Schwarzenegger was at least able to say 'Hasta la Vista'. When the cyberdyne chip and its factory was 'terminated' , terminator Arnold had to destroy himself too, to completely anihilate cyberdyne technology.

Well my opinion is to put this crazy stuff on hold. Imagine a rat controlling heavy armed robots. This is for normal sane people a no-go.

Robert

Re:time to watch T2 again

[LemurShop]

Step 1: Put that on a TV show
Step 2: Throw in some reality tv "stars"
Step 3: ..... (obvious)
Step 4: Profit!

Re:time to watch T2 again

[i.r.id10t]

Actually, there is a book over in Baen's free (as in beer) online library of some of their titles that has these (Bats, Rats, and Vats - I forget the author). Modified bats as well. Pretty good read, as is a lot of other stuff on that site, including some very "known" authors.

Re:time to watch T2 again

[Xerithane]

Well my opinion is to put this crazy stuff on hold. Imagine a rat controlling heavy armed robots. This is for normal sane people a no-go.


After a scenario like that, I don't think your intended audience need worry about their sanity.

Ratbrain enterprise edition!

[N2H4]

I will wait until i can purchase a ratbrain pci card before I jump on the bandwagon. Imagine the image recognition possibilites :)

Re:Ratbrain enterprise edition!

[Timesprout]

Yeah but what happens if you get a stupid rat ?

Re:Ratbrain enterprise edition!

[slimey_limey]

Yes!! Sell it in a box with an ethernet connector, and call it a "holographic-storage fileserver"! Stores terabytes of data, serches instantly, only neds 0.25 watts of power! Thrives on your excess data-center heat!

Strong Sad

[Luigi30]

"And then the old man's kids came. The robot remembered them and began to cry. But the tears short circuited the robot and he died and fell onto the kids. And none of them lived..." Hope that doesn't happen!

Re:Strong Sad

[fishexe]

You're not invited to next year's party.

One question...

[Tidal Flame]

Does the rat wonder why the f--k it has a robotic body?

Re:One question...

[TeknoHog]

Does the rat wonder why the f--k it has a robotic body?

Probably not, as it will be used to the mechanism. We all wondered about our human bodies some time after we were born. And frankly, even many grownups aren't comfortable with their bodies.

Re:One question...

[Arker]

Does the rat wonder why the f--k it has a robotic body?

No.

Living tissue

[Anonymous Coward]

How do they keep the nerve cells alive? Are they actually fed, oxygenated, and protected from infection?

Re:Living tissue

[budgenator]

I was thinking that they could give the cells a shot of endorphins when the light reached a certain intensity for positive reinforcement. teach the cells to actual seek the light.

Re:Living tissue

[wolfneuralnet]

Yes - the cells live in an incubator and are fed calf-serum enriched media. The incubator has enough O2 in it that the cells get oxygen through the media. The electrodes are on the bottom of the dish. It is also nowhere near anything close to working.

Re:Living tissue

[NeurobotD]

Yes it is true they are cultured in an incubator with high CO2 (about 5%) to maintain PH in the media and is similar to levels found in the brain (much higher CO2 than atmospheric levels). We use equine serum however. The MEAs are run outside of the incubator for the most part using MultChannel Systems hardware (see http://www.multichannelsystems.com).

So...

[Hoch]

What is the ETA of the first rat Matrix? Are the dates coincidental? I think not!

hoch

I hope

[Anonymous Coward]

They are only using female rats for this experiment. If they use male rats the report would probably look something like

Monday morning
Robot tried too shag other robots

Monday afternoon
Robot refused to move from candy vending machine

Monday evening
Robot tried too shag other robots

Tuesday morning
Robot tried too shag other robots ....

Re:I hope

[Alsee]

And if they use female rats the report would probably look something like

Monday morning
Robot behaved in a random and irrational manner

Monday afternoon
Robot behaved in a random and irrational manner

Monday evening
Robot behaved in a random and irrational manner

Tuesday morning
Robot behaved in a random and irrational manner

-

Re:I hope

[MrScience]

No, didn't you read? They don't know what the spikes actually correlate too. So for all we know, every time it tries to jack off, it's really taking a step.

Remember the "rat thing" in Snow Crash?

[ron_ivi]

I thought Neal Stephenson documented these things in Snow Crash back in '92.

If you don't know the reference, it's worth reading. Snow Crash got at 9.5 rating on slashdot

Re:Remember the "rat thing" in Snow Crash?

[Anonymous Coward]

The rat things were made out of dogs, however.

In other news, Soylent Green is made of people!

Re:Remember the "rat thing" in Snow Crash?

[JPM NICK]

I am in the middle of reading Cryptonomican by Stephenson right now. I like it so far. It was a little slow out of the gate, but is picking up speed.

Re:Remember the "rat thing" in Snow Crash?

[ancyent_marinere]

Actually, Cordwainer Smith (aka. Paul Linebarger), science fiction legend and father of psychological warfare, wrote about rodent brains being used as circuitry for really compact sentient supercomputers a long time before Neal Stephenson learned to read.

Story without registering

[56ksucks]

Click here for story without registering.

Robot & the Brain

[Anonymous Coward]

Robot : "Gee, Brain what do you want to do tonight?"
Brain : "The same thing we do every night Pinky. Follow that stupid light around!"

Robocop

[hyeh]

This is much more like Robocop than any other movie analgoy. Imagine the sheer horror of waking up one day, and finding that your body is a mechanical construct.

That's probably how the rat feels.

I'm waiting for the telepathic dog brain.

[mrmeval]

From some ancient sci-fi novel I can't recall.

Re:I'm waiting for the telepathic dog brain.

[mrmeval]

That's one but there was an even older one where some function of a starship was ran by a crewman linked to a dog brain modified to be telepathic.
It wasn't a cute furry dog, just meat in a jar.
This was *very* old, probably Perry Rhodan era, not to insult the era. ;-)

I remember the movie, Harlan Ellison IS hard to take. Not a bad thing, just recommended in small doses as oil of vitriol is corrosive.

So this then is the output of the transhuman?

[Thinkit3]

Transhumanism is about controlling the input and output to the "self", wherever it is. It really won't be like robocop at all...you'll just have a brain (or whatever part is needed) and can swap everything else out. Most transhumanists want to kill or control lesser beings, so best be informed so you can join them.

Re:So this then is the output of the transhuman?

[Saige]

Transhumanism is about controlling the input and output to the "self", wherever it is. It really won't be like robocop at all...you'll just have a brain (or whatever part is needed) and can swap everything else out. Most transhumanists want to kill or control lesser beings, so best be informed so you can join them.

You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about, do you?

And no, Transhumanists don't want to kill or control "lesser beings", and I don't know what you mean by that term, but I'm guessing you're meaning to imply that transhumanist folk think of everyone else as "lesser", which is also complete crap.

Just because I would love to have a body that I can change into any form that I want whenever I want, and to improve and increase the ability of mind, doesn't mean I have any desire to force anyone else to do the same, or mistreat those that choose not to. And I know of nobody that feels that way, except for the mythical "transhumanist" that you seem to refer to.

So stop spreading blatant lies.

Re:So this then is the output of the transhuman?

[Thinkit3]

I consider myself a transhumanist, and to have a body that I can change into any form that I want whenever I want, and to improve and increase the ability of mind is a good statement of what I believe. And there is a really simple definition of what is lesser--that which you can kill. Thus, dogs and cats are lesser to us.

Wow

[Tyrdium]

Must be smart rats they're serving it off... Hasn't been slashdotted yet...

fiction meets fact: cordwainer smith

[deasach]

Sprinkled right through Cordwainer Smith's short stories written in the 1960s are altered animals and bio-computers. In particular one of his stories (I wish I could remember which one - "Think Blue, Count Two"?) mentions a computer made of "laminated mouse brain". Few things seem to happen today that weren't anticipated earlier by at least one sci-fi writer...

Re:fiction meets fact: cordwainer smith

[DeepBlueDiver]

"......he is a dead mouse brain laminated with plastic and I have no idea at all of who I am."

"Think blue, count two", 1963, Cordwainer Smith

Georgia Tech's Article

[frostgiant]

If you are looking for more information or a new perspective, check out the actual news release by Georgia Tech.

Georgia Tech Researchers Use Lab Cultures to Control Robotic Device

Go Yellow Jackets!

Re:I'm going to get flamed, but

[Muhammar]

As a scientist, I regret that you are not my animal.

"Hybrid Robot Uses Rat Brain"

[Muhammar]

No distatesful GWB jokes here, please - he got almost half of the votes.

No!

[scrod]

We must destroy the Daleks before it's too late!

Re:No!

[Ridcully]

Or stop them from using pigs' brains. Next thing you know they'll create the Peking Homunculus and it will try to kill the Commissioner of the Icelandic Alliance's children.

Oh sorry.

That's not due till the Ice Age in the year 5000 AD.

Ok. Stop them from using pigs' brains in robots now to replace politicians. Who would know? :)

Hybrid Robot Uses Rat Brain...

[nother_nix_hacker]

Hybrid Robot Uses Rat Brain

Oh my sweet love of god. I haven't read the story and that scares the shit out of me! :)

Wrong headline

[Slur]

It should read:

Rat Brain Uses Hybrid Robot

Well, back to the future again.

[AltGrendel]

For anyone that's interested, Cordwainer Smith wrote about this stuff back in the '60s.

Re:I'm going to get flamed, but

[blincoln]

As much as I appreciate research towards human/machine interfaces, I have to agree.

Why not use donated brain tissue from humans? If research like this is really promising, I'd find it hard to believe that at least other scientists in the field wouldn't be willing to have theirs used in the event of their death by natural or accidental causes. It would also provide a better model for what this is supposed to be used for eventually.

The implications of this technology

[InterruptDescriptorT]

At least we'll never run out of politicians now. :-)

Experimenting on animals...

[MrTangent]

Experimenting on animals makes me sick. Just because you can doesn't mean it's right.

Re:Experimenting on animals...

[Anonymous Coward]

How true! It's far better to experiment on humans! In fact, I'm volunteering you to be the first to have their brain wired to a robot!

Re:Experimenting on animals...

[MrTangent]

Alright! I'm game!

Re:Experimenting on animals...

[glenebob]

And set the research back by how many years? Better to stick with the rats.

Re:Experimenting on animals...

[MrTangent]

Don't forget policitians. :)

Re:Experimenting on animals...

[dustmite]

Until you find out you (or a loved one) have a terminal illness that has a chance of being cured as a result of research that uses animal. Whats worse, using some animals in experiments, or letting millions of people suffer and/or die from disorders and diseases that we may be able to cure much faster using animal experiments?

Would you rather watch your own mother die from an illness, just to protect some rats from experimentation in a lab?

Obviously using animals to create/test cosmetics is wrong. But this isn't as black and white as you first thought, is it.

Re:Experimenting on animals...

[MrTangent]

The problem here is that the physiology of a rat isn't the same as a humans. Various animal bodies react differently to carcinogens/pathogens than we do, so testing on them isn't inherently as beneficial as you claim. Personally I would advocate testing on brain-dead humans. Sure a lot of people would disagree with me, but if a human is verifiably brain-dead (from severe head injuries, for instance), why not? And then you'll be assured that the test will adequately translate to other humans, and not have to guestimate as they do when they test on animals. Pain and fear are not just human traits and these animals we so mercilessly kill by the millions each year feel pain and fear just as you and I do, and die horrible deaths for our benefit. Who are we to decide that animals are "lesser" and more deserving to die for our causes? If we're so-called "humane" then we owe it to them not to test on them... that's my opinion at least.

Kittys

[Keith McClary]

Imagine a rat controlling heavy armed robots. This is for normal sane people a no-go.

How about a cute fluffy little kitty-cat controlling heavy armed robots?

penguin brain?

[SHEENmaster]

or maybe a daemon's?

I can't seem to remember if anyone in The Golden Compass trilogy had a penguin for a daemon, though I suspect Linux has been ported the alethiometer platform.

Re:penguin brain?

[davesag]

having just finished the trilogy - "His Dark Materials" by Philip Pullman if you want the actual title - i can safely say no, none of the characters had a penguin as a daemon. Notwithstanding that oversight, they are damn fine books.

More Sci-fi roots!

[bigattichouse]

Dreams of God and Men by William Thomas Quick The device is called a "Meatbox", a computer made of neural material.

So that would be a Stainless Steel Rat, then?

[UberOogie]

Harry Harrison in the house. Props to the peeps. I'm outtie.

Politicians

[grasshoppa]

Sure, they can give brains to rats, but I'll be impressed when they do the same the politicians.

Re:Artificial voicebox

[slickwillie]

What they didn't tell you was they also hooked up an artificial speech generator. What did the rat say?

Narf!!!

[PourYourselfSomeTea]

What are we going to do tonight, Brain?

The same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try to hook you up to the Borg!

Re:I'm going to get flamed, but

[belarm314]

From the article:

"...that operates on the basis of the neural activity of rat brain cells grown in a dish"

And, from the write-up:

"the layer of rat neurons is grown over an array of electrodes..."

Did you not pick up on the hint that these neurons were not taken from a rat? They were cultured in a fucking petri dish.

And if you really have such a problem with animal experimentation, you should realize two things: 1, that this type of testing can lead to a great many lives saved in the future, as well as the possible advent of cybernetic replacement for lost/malformed body parts, and 2, that the only alternatives are to volunteer yourself, or destroy the possibility of this branch of science reaching fruition.

One more thing. I'm not sure, but I believe that the human cerebellum is too complex in its input/output for us to perform this type of experiment with. We can do some work in that area, but this type of interface would be far beyond anything attempted thus far. (At least, that's my hypothesis...if someone knows otherwise, let me know)

Re:I'm going to get flamed, but

[TrekkieGod]

Why not use donated brain tissue from humans? If research like this is really promising, I'd find it hard to believe that at least other scientists in the field wouldn't be willing to have theirs used in the event of their death by natural or accidental causes. It would also provide a better model for what this is supposed to be used for eventually.

Why go through the extra trouble? When you create something new, there's a lot of trial and error involved so you wouldn't really get a "better model" right off the bat (I'm assuming the "future use" you refer to is control of prosthetic limbs and the such). Right now, interface of any mechanics with any organic neurons is enough of a step forward...they don't even yet know if the thing is going to actually learn and become better at its tasks, they just hope it will.

Learning?

[feagle814]

I have a hard time thinking they can expect these systems to learn without a positive/negative feedback system - you know, do something wrong, get punished, do something right, get rewarded. Why should the cells be trained to go toward a light if they have no way of knowing (read: receiving feedback indicating) whether the light is good or bad? Another interesting thing to research is what the mechanism actually is that does this in people and animals.

Re:I'm going to get flamed, but

[wolfneuralnet]

Actually, they were taken from a rat, they were just explanted on to a petri dish to grow. If you really want the details, they are taken from a live pup that was surgically removed from the mother's uterus - its called embronic cultures. Its also the only way to get decent rat cultures, so get used to it. And you are right, it is worth it.

Hmmm...

[Terminal Saint]

Yet another case where half of me says "Hmmm, that's fascinating..." whilst the other half screams "You sick fucks! What in the name of God are you doing?!" It's not easy being a hippie/cyberpunk/artsy/nerdy/outdoorsey/straight edge/gamer

This research is not very far along yet...

[wolfneuralnet]

I have seen this guy give a talk every year for 5 years. He always says the same thing "we are close to observing something here." The truth is that no one has a clue whether he will ever see anything in these cultures that is meaningful. These are dissociated cells that are living in a culture dish. The laminar structure that the hippocampus has is destroyed in this process. It would be like throwing a bunch of wires together and hoping to come up with a few logic gates. It is all hype right now. The neurons are not "controlling" the robot at all - the neurons have yet to show any organized activity. Even if they did - would you know what it meant??? I would be very surprised if this ever worked in its current incarnation...

Re:This research is not very far along yet...

[bshanks]

Yeah, but it's still worth a try.

Matrix

[nocomment]

oh sure until one of these little rat thingies gets a hold of the red pill, then we're all doomed.

Sir, please overclock the rat brain.

[Stainless Crap]

That can make house clean faster.

Oh goodie..

[Forkenhoppen]

Frankenrat. Wonderful.

Cross thread reference

[Bronster]

Maybe this rat could be used to bell the cat, making life safe for all the leetle meecies?

In the words of Captain Picard

[Tuxinatorium]

They invade our kitchens, and we fall back. They steal entire cheeses, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, and no farther. And I will make the mice-borg pay for what they have done!

Re:I'm going to get flamed, but

[malia8888]

Why not use donated brain tissue from humans?

There is a mess in the works if we use human brain cells-- Donated brain tissue from a scientist would NOT be nice, fresh, young, embryonic tissue. Also, imagine the flap we would have if we could use donated brain tissue from a scientist. The fundamentalists would be asking if we were dealing with creation. Does this robot now have a soul?

Look at the controversy with stem cell research. Rats are a good choice because frankly nobody likes them very much. I they were using dog (embryonic) pups to harvest cells people would be coming after the scientists with pitchforks and torches.

That explains it

[rat7307]

NOW I understand why the scientists have been prodding and poking my noggin lately

Rat

Um...

[ruiner13]

... didn't I see something like this in Robocop? And Robocop 2? And Robocop 3? It only worked out for 'em once with a human brain. OCP made a mess trying to find the secret of this technology.

Sounds useful

[beeswax]

Put a female brain in a RealDoll. :)

Re:Sounds useful

[joss]

hmmm, I think I would rather have it the other way round.

[score -1] msyoginist

REDRUM

[methangel]

eseehC ...eseehC....eseeeeeehC

I hope you all understand the joke.

I'm my own Grandpa - Willie Nelson

[photovoltaics]

Willie Nelson
I'm my own Grandpa.

ROBO-RAT coming in theaters near you!!!

[urbieta]

first robocop, now roborat, whats next, robohumans? hmmm, yikes!

The Doctor saw this one coming

[letoram]

Doesn't this have a striking resemblance to a certain Dr. Who episode with the creation of the daleks (as far as I remember, "the genesis of the daleks" episode) where the brains of genetically enhanched ferocious animal was used as a basis for the supreme dalek intellect. So this is where it all began?

Exterminate Exterminate, Slashdot is an enemy of the daleks.. EXTERMINATE

I saw a robot...

[Anonymous Coward]

with 2 wheels.

In soviet Russia, robot controll rat.
In Soviet Russia, Chernobyl goes boom.

In My Apartment, Staying up late working on paper SUCKS.

I Mean, it'd be nice if Natalie Portman was here... uh... SUCKING. But papers just SUCK. Now that Ive seen the matrix... I wonder if the Source was Open Source. I guess not... mostve been closed source - if it was open the anomaly would have been fixed.

DAMN.

Trinity is the SHIZNAT.

PROPS TO MATTS MOM.

More about the hybrot

[rpiquepa]

For more information about the hybrot, you can read A Hybrot, the Rat-Brained Robot or Researchers use lab cultures to control robotic device

This leaves me with a single thought ...

[diggitzz]

I can't wait to put my brain in a robot body!

... but it has to be a Robot Cat!

Yawn.

[torpor]

Wake me up when they attach the frickin' lasers.

Nuku Kick!!!!!

[Max Threshold]

How long before they can put a cat's brain in a female android body?

Re:Nuku Kick!!!!!

[flumps]

..but then how would we tell the difference? Turing tests?

What do Roborats eat?

[flumps]

...Beowulf clusters of cheese :)

Rat Things?

[Idaho]

Am I the only one who can't help thinking about the Rat Things in Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" when reading this?

I'd watch out real close when near one of those...before you know it, there'll be UberRats that bite :P

Make it stop

[DrJAKing]

What is this, dumb hippocampus experiment week? First the guys with their "hippocampus on a chip," and now this. It's not a network unless the cells are connected together. This is a suspension of cells that have settled onto an array of electrodes. Unless there's more to it that I can see, the cells are not synapsing with each other, they certainly don't have any of the structure or learning they have in vivo, and I can't see how he got this funded by NIH.

Dirty Rat Kaporian

[Madcapjack]

"Not Rodent!!! Its Rodant."

obscure reference to Ruby the Galactic Gumshoe

www.zbs.org

.

.

I don't know HTML!

I had to say it

[arestivo]

Pinky: What are we going to do today.
Brain: Same thing we do everyday, take over the world! (...) If only I could make my left wheel move. Ahhh!

Khepera II Price..

[k-team]

Despite a persitent and erroneour rumor, Khepera II price is $1'800 -- K-Team S.A. Mobile Robots for Research, Education, and Hobby http://www.k-team.com http://www.hemisson.com

next step

[Pierre]

Fit it with a hearing and the ability to make human sounds to see if it can learn to speak. I wonder what it would say? Doubt it would be to gratefull...

there should be no cruelty of living things..

[Anonymous Coward]

So whats next, cat, dog, chimp, human?
Really guys I like tech as much as anyone, but screwing up living creatures is just bad karma.
Is it not bed enough we eat just every living creature on the planet.

Re:there should be no cruelty of living things..

[ajs318]

Is it not bed enough we eat just every living creature on the planet.

If you think eating dead animals is disgusting, you've obviously no idea how they make tofu.

Robocop 2

[svenjob]

This whole thing reminds me of the bad guy in Robocop 2. I just hope they don't use a criminal rat's brain and use drugs addiction to control it. We all know what happens when you try to do that... You make a bad movie.

original idea for this...

[Anonymous Coward]

...was done by artist/writer Mike Saenz in his 80's comic "Shatter". He even had a diagram of "bug-bomb" robots with rat brains for processors because they were cheaper to use than microchips.

Also of note: "Shatter" was the first commercial comic book to be produced by computer (the Mac to be specific).

Obligatory Animatrix reference

[MacGod]

The Rat built machine. And for awhile, it was good...

Wait a minute! "rat built machine"? That doesn't sound right. Somebody check the script!

Eel cyborgs

[tomzyk]

This reminds me of previous posts of similar experiments involving eel and lamprey brains. So, this doesn't exactly seem like anything new. (Those other articles were from 2000 and 2001!) So it just seems like they used a rat brain instead of an eel or lamprey brain. Even having the "light sensor attraction" thing was done with the lampreys.

Wanna see a rat brain?

[wood_tang]

Am I the only person who's ever heard the term "rat brain" used in an entirely different context, along with other classics like the chicken heart and flying squirrel?

RAT BRAIN

[simgod]

"Hybrid Robot Uses Rat Brain" George W. Bush must have been the prototype...

karma whoreing

[nounderscores]

Here's a link to an enthusiasts page, and here's the MIT researcher Dr Linda Griffith-Cima who's spearheading the research. more on her at the MIT website. Finally here's the largely ignored /. article

Sooo Cool, Matrix or Tron anyone???

[robbymaster]

I now know that I can live for ever inside a computer all they have to do is keep my brain alive... I'll be playing doom 3 much more realisticly than i thought :) (No fancy videocard required)

Science loves the net

[phorm]

And think about how the net is making all this possible. As high-speed increases, we get fast downloads of large volumes of data, streamed video or audio. Seriously, if the scientific community could be completely open about things, such as say AIDS... a global open net discussion might come up with a solution (provided they can adequately filter the trolls).

Blogs are spawning online science journals... medical information wants to be free

Re:Science loves the net

[tfoss]

And think about how the net is making all this possible. As high-speed increases, we get fast downloads of large volumes of data, streamed video or audio.

I agree, the net is allowing communication to occur on a much better level than before. Things that were difficult or impossible before are now easy and commonplace. I am not suggesting the net is *bad* for research.

Seriously, if the scientific community could be completely open about things, such as say AIDS... a global open net discussion might come up with a solution (provided they can adequately filter the trolls).

The scientific community is much, much more open than nearly anything else. Check out PubMed. A quick search on 'HIV' returns justover 125,000 articles. Now mind you, this isn't like google, those 125,000 are *published* articles in (mostly) peer-reviewed journals, not some half-assed web-page set up 3 years ago and not touched since. If you think the scientific community is anything but open, you have not had much interaction with it at all. Science requires openness to exist, and Academic Science requires publication to survive (try getting funding without publishing...). As for your global open net discussion, the problem is that filtering the trolls and useless suggestions would eliminate 99.9% of the traffic, and leave pretty much only those in the field who are already having plenty of discussions. Science prevents participation only based on familiarity and knowledge.

-Ted

Been there, done that

[mnemotronic]

I built an similiar system a decade ago and turned it loose in society. My was slightly more human in appearance and behavior, but still obviously "not all there". But it did manage to get itself elected as President....

good luck in school

[Archfeld]

Ms Geek, hope things work out :)

Obvious Jerry mc-Matrix comment

[Guignol]

Show me the monney

Purity vs Cyborg

[InstantCrisis]

It would be cool to combine the useful aspects of rats and robots while eliminating the parts that get in the way. I made an attempt to compete a trained rat against robots, and I would like to have had a rat whose senses could be turned off at different times, but who might retain whatever "intuition" its biological brain possessed.

Rat vs Mobot: The John Henry Project

I'm looking forward to 2045 when I can replace my aging body with cybernetics. Painless, modular, strong.

Re:I'm going to get flamed, but

[desertfish]

Okay, could someone remind me which animals have souls and which don't? Is it only humans? It's hard to tell sometimes, especially when other animals exhibit soulful behavior.

Re:I'm going to get flamed, but

[desertfish]

Woops! This is the correct link to soulful behavior. Sorry.

Oh, great.

[knuth]

Now Slashdot will be hearing from the Church of Scientology, because /. used the phrase "rat brain" in a headline.