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Water Flows Uphill
An anonymous reader writes "The BBC are reporting James Dyson's new garden feature, a waterfall with water flowing uphill. Apparently, he wanted to recreate an Escher drawing."
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It's a water elevator, or something.
Whats he plan to add next to this garden, a never ending looping stair case?
Antiwater (two part antihydrogen and one part antioxygen) is repelled by the force of gravity.
(-:Stephonovich:-)
"Who needs reincarnation when we've got parallel universes?" -Me
Waterfall.
Google doesn't index user sigs, so stop trying to "Google Bomb" with them.
Wrong image. He's thinking of the image where there are soldiers walking up a set of stairs which never gets higher, and cycles around, on top of a tower.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
That would look really cool if it was a small widget-type zen thing, so I can have one on my desk to contemplate while trying to be inspired. :-)
The ENIAC Demo Competition
Since the 70's, there has been a cave on Tom Sawyer Island in Disneyworld in which water appears to flow uphill.
The Imagineers did it cleverly with a slanted room and no point of reference. Not as geeky, but a really cool effect nonetheless which amazed me back in the day.
"The pie shall be cut in half and each man shall receive.....death. I'll eat the pie."
are at the World of Escher. The man was a genius.
I'm not Seth.
but using a different technique. I used a strobe on a small waterfall in a dark room- this works in the same way you can sometimes see car wheels spinning in the wrong dirrection.
:^)
When i saw dysons outdoor version while touring the flower show I hoped he had somehow used lasers to implement the strobe technique outdoors in full daylight - that would be cool. But no he is just using pumped air - no surprise really considering hes a vacuum genius
Before adopting WHATWG, read the moonlight.NET EULA [http://www.microsoft.com/interop/msnovellcollab/moonlight.mspx]
Now, why would he do that? I know it might be a rhetorical question, but honestly though - all he would do, I presume, is to limit this neat but useless (admit it - this is as useless as your lava-lamp and plasma-ball (no seminal jokes please)) thing out of mainstream for a long time - instead of giving him eternal fame, etc.
Now - an interesting question to think about is what part of our pattern-recognizing brain is responsible for *falling* for such a visual illusion? Research like this can shed light on the workings of the mind, I think.
My life in the land of the rising sun.
A video would be much better but there is the iPix version.
(don't bother replying with a debunk of the "Coriolis force" - I already know)
The first thing i would do having this invention in front of me, is to put a small floatation device (leaf, paper boat, etc...) at the bottom of the hill, to watch it float uphill.
Sadly, I would be completely dissapointed.
0110100100100000011000010110110100100000011000100
Check this animation out from an old IRTC round.
a ll.mpg
:-) )
a ll.txt e nts/h20fall.comments
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/anims/2000-07-15/h20f
(setting up a BT would nice for this so IRTC.ORG doesn't get bandwidth destroyed. I'd do it, but I should be really studying for final exams
Notes
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/anims/2000-07-15/h20f
Comments
http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/anims/2000-07-15/comm
From here
http://www.irtc.org/anims/2000-07-15.html
All credit for the animation goes to Joe Wise.
----------
Check out my blackbox styles
Actually, that was the Haunted Shack at Knott's Berry Farm, just down the road from Disneyland. It was torn down about a couple of years ago to make way for a thrill ride, which was also quickly torn down because it was unsafe. It is now a picnic area.
An identical copy of the Haunted Shack was built at the Calico Ghost Town where it was called the Mystery Shack, but it burned down in 2001 and is currently being rebuilt.
Perhaps some sort of spinoff of Marcel Duchamp's 1917 work of "art".
Those crazy dadaists!
I always was fascinated by Escher when I was a kid and I still love to just stare at his works for long periods. /.
It's the only exercise my brain gets outside of
I will be building one of these in my backyard..
Totally cool..
They tore down that house? That was one of the best memories...:( Damn you Knott's Berry Farm DAMN U.
--Thei Antispamist A useless endevor that will cer
That's pretty well done! of course it's a trick, but it's one I haven't seen before, AND it's a *good* trick!
Machine9dotNet
I want to be floating upstreeeeeeeam.
Yes, I know that's impossible with this mechanism, but it'd be cool.
Lalala
This brings back fond memories of an illusion I first saw when I was a kid. I saw it in Springfield Mall. It was put on by a plumbing contractor, or a hot tub installer, or somebody like that.
It was a faucet, seemingly suspended in mid-air, with an endless supply of water coming from it.
I marvelled at it for several minutes, pondering how it could be done, yet my child's mind, while knowing it wasn't real, was beyond fathoming any art or science that could accomplish this.
Leaning closer to inspect it, my suspicions were aroused by the strange apparatus in the catch basin, but I still needed a full explanation from an adult:
All you do is run a pipe up to the faucet. The pipe supports the faucet. The faucent contains a concavity that directs the water to flow in a hollow cylinder that hides the pipe and completes the illusion.
You can buy table-top models of this, with yellow-dyed water flowing into a mug of beer.
Kudos to this guy though, for taking the concept and wedding it to Escher in a novel way.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
How about a statue of two hands molding eachother, demonstrating the wonderful concept that we all mold our own fate? You know, like Escher's picture of two hands drawing eachother?
Or what about a room of relativity, where one person's stares going up are another person's stares going down?
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
How about not, mkay?
No!!! IP laws are evil! They are outdated and wrong! There is no purpose to them other than giving the man a tool to keep his jackboot on my neck!
[Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
In other backwards news: Duke Nukem Forever will be released next month!!!
Very impressive!
--jeff++
ipv6 is my vpn
Canoeing up river easier, when can we incorporate this model into our new age WonderCanoe that will take us beyond the milky way??
Dear Mr. Dyson, We, the FBI, have become aware of your projects. We understand that you have been reverse-engineering water, and this is in violation of the DMCA, PATRIOT, and PATRIOT II acts. You have been flagged for interrogation as a potential terrorist. Until you can be brought in, you are asked to cease all water reverse-engineering. Sincerely, Agent J. Mehoff
iLoo with water flushing uphill? nah.....
http://www.sportsvenue-technology.com/contractors
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-885
good to see innovation is dead
If you RTFA
Derek Phillips, the Dyson engineer who spent 12 months building the feature, told BBC News Online that his head was spinning when he was given his brief.
"James came up to me and said he wanted this idea to make water go uphill. My initial reaction was to look for Paul Daniels' phone number. But I've had to become a bit of an illusionist myself."
so i think the credit goes to Mr Phillips for actually pulling it off, Dyson loves taking credit for other peoples work
That thing would look awesome in your garden. I'd buy one. (If I had the money, and if I had a garden to put it in.)
I'd also want to put one of those non-linear water wheels. You have buckets on a wheel and they get filled up by a source of water. As they fill, they begin to rotate the wheel. However, the buckets have holes on the bottom. This causes the water in the buckets to flow out. What results is a wheel that moves in a decidedly non-linear fashion. That'd be a nice companion to the Escher waterfall. :)
Where the wind blows, the tumbleweed goes.
The story leaves out that after the reporters were done taking pictures for the day, he put the big glass bowl centerpiece back in the middle and he showed them what it was really built for. Its rumored that everyone lost thier lighter.
According to my supervisor, shit still does, in fact, flow down hill. Zep--
And for his next trick, maybe he could do a mini "hell freezing over".
Hey, then we'd all get laid! Quick, where's his phone number?
If any article needed a video link, this surely should have been it.
Never, ever lose a file again. Ever.
This reminded me of something I read in the paper years back, turns out back in 1996 some scientists were awarded the Nobel Prize for discovering a liquid that actually flows uphill, some sort of special property about temperatures approaching absolute zero that cause liquid to move in a coordinated manner and lack all inner friction. That's the extent of the stuff I can understand, check the article out for yourselves.
Come on, you must have picked the wrong category there chum.
Patent laws provide incentives for people to indulge in creative thought by rewarding their investments in any ideas they may come up with.
How do patents do this? Fairly simple, really:
1) You think up a new invention
2) You market this invention (exclusively, thanks to patents)
3) MONEY!!
Seriously, do you think companies would spend a 10th on R&D of what they currently do, if they knew that if they came up with something everyone would be free to duplicate it? Where's the incentive to put in the hard yards there, without patents it would be a case of big firms sitting back, waiting for someone to come up with a good idea, then stealing it.
Patent Laws encourage innovation by giving the inventors enough time to recoup in the investment they make in their ideas. I don't see how they let "the man" do anything.
Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem.
Still, this does look really cool even though it is a trompe l'oeil.
SIGBUS @ NO-07.308
"In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
I guess they forgot to check for prior art... :)
Instead of bubbling air under the water to make an illusion, force air over the water, like wind over the ocean. The water will be forced to move like water rushing up a beach.
Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
hmm, just like his vacuum cleaner technology, right?
I believe his bagless version is quite some bit more advanced than the most (all?) of the other ones out there.
However, you are expected to pay some 400 dollars for a vacuum.
Now, that's very cool technology that he is touting, but no way in a billion years that i will choke up that kind of money for a vacuum - the fact is, if his vacuum technology is licensed liberally (or, I might add, not patented altogether), manufacturing for it would be drop in price and everyone can get hold of nice vacuums. However, now we'd have to wait some 17 years before that happens.
I don't think it's, in the end, for the Greater Good (tm). To be honest I have become quite convinced that even without patents, willingness to innovate would not be at all strifled, and patent laws, when abused, have a much higher tendency to do so. Yes if properly done patent is a wonderful thing, but so is communism - patent laws are too easy to abuse. But I digress - this is offtopic enough already
My life in the land of the rising sun.
I remember seeing this ridiculous pop science show that was trying to come up with any evidence to support various bible stories. In one of them the tried to support the splitting of the red sea by showing some researchers who got water to flow up a gradient of decreasingly hydrophobic material (teflon I think). I remember thinking, "Oh yeah, Moses was an expert in poly-flourinated chemistry!" Does this ring a bell for anyone? The teflon gradient that is, not the cooky show.
It's just north of Ayr, near a place called Dunure. Quite a bizarre thing, too. Website here
There is also an optical illusion near there in..Moncton i think? You go to the base of the hill, put your car in neutral, and your car will roll up the hill. Its an optical illusion, you are actually rolling downhill, but you look and it looks uphill, no amount of thinking its downhill dispells that.
:-) It is truly a mindfuck. I love taking people there and acting as if I don't know what's going on and freaking out when the car rolls backwards uphill (apparently), which only freaks them out even more!
You may (or not) be thinking of a place near Lewisberry, Pennsylvania - which is conveniently about 15 min. from my house
I've heard it was featured on that "Unsolved Mysteries" show, but I dunno.
Those Escher Lego Pictures from a while back.
:)
Escher's work is damn cool.
You like your new Mac more than you like me, don't you, Dave? Dave? I asked...She said Yes.
So when will he build us that sphere thingy?
Tom the Sigless
You obviously don't understand how patents work, then. The whole point is to NOT disclose them before being granted the patent, at least to the public. Once the patent is granted, it's a matter of public record.
Look it up if you want to know.
There was also one called "Grandpa's house" at Silver Dollar City in Branson Mo. Don't know if it's still there.
There were all sorts of visual gags in there, goofy floors, tilted stuff, you know..
Great fun for the kids, pretty fun for the older folks too, but tough to walk through if you have a bum leg..
not to be a spelling nazi, but shoudn't it be "grammar"?
Yes, coke, coffee or alcohol all dehydrate you (make you thirsty). In the case of alcohol, thats why drinking as much water as you can the night before helps in the morning after. And if you still hurt in the morning, drink more water (and coffee doesn't count, but apple juice does, water is still best).
-- it must be true, it's on the internet.
Schlitterbahn in New Braunfels, Texas has had uphill water rides for almost ten years. Sure, there's no nifty Escher tie-in, but it's a lot more fun than a British flower show.
But then again, I could be wrong.
Post flowing uphill to the wrong topic
Oh yeah. Any chance of getting Linux to run on one of those things?
if you engineer a product, people can reverse-engineer it. holding a secret isn't always THE way to go.
BUT, i believe you can still file a patent even after that, if you prove that you invented it first. Bell won the telephone thing based on the "I invented 3 days before him though I came into the patent office 30 seconds after" clause.
though, 3M did a good job with the secrets thing. post-it note glue formula was never revealed to the world, and by the time companies like avery reverse engineered it, they have already established market penetration and brand recognition that nobody can touch.
Just some random babble
Is that anywhere near Saint Kevin's Stump?
This, of course, causes its normal downhill motion under gravity to occur retrotemporally, giving the fluid the appearance of syntemporal uphill motion.
I know we're supposed to concentrate on the content, and not the form of comments. But you pulled of the rare feat of making 3 simple grammatical errors in that sentence. I suggest you order the book "1001 Tense Formations", by Dr. Dan Streetmentioner, from your favourite Internet book store, and re-fresh your grammar. Next time Read It Before You Post.
Irene KHAAAAAAN!
You are referring to the Reversing Falls in Saint John, NB.
Also, you are referring to The Magnetic Hill in Moncton, NB.
I've seen both. The Magnetic Hill is a cool illusion. The Reversing Falls isn't worth the drive. It looks cooler in pictures. It's really a reversing river more than anything.
It is official; BBC confirms: gravity is dying One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered gravity community when IDC confirmed that gravity market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all garden shows. Coming on the heels of a recent BBC survey which plainly states that gravity has lost more garden market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. gravity is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Dyson comprehensive water test.
You don't need to be a Newton to predict gravity's future. The hand writing is on the wall: gravity faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all because gravity is dying. Things are looking very bad for gravity. Red ink flows like an uphill river of blood.
Indeed. What if?
Sounds like a great Open Sores business model.
See: Stolen Concept. The world cannot go round with out the consent of the owner. It's their right as an owner. If the owner doesn't have any incentive to make the world go round, it won't. To conclude otherwise is to conclude that one is unconscious. To conclude that one is unconscious is scarcely epistemologically admissible.
That is probably one of the only things I can really remember from Knotts Berry Farm. They had a few illusions in that house.
1 - First room they took a shorter and a taller person and put them kinda against the wall, they looked the same height.
2 - Next one I believe was the water one. They had a pipe with the water source connected to a water pitcher of some sort, which was pouring onto a little trough, but the water went uphill instead of downhill.
3 - Next room they had someone sit in a chair that was nailed against the wall and made them put their hands on thier lap. The goal was to be able to sit up but the person couldn't.
That was a pretty cool deal they had there, its too bad it got torn down.
About 50 miles or so from where I live there is a hill called gravity hill. When you put your car in neutral it appears the car rolls uphill, its pretty trippy =).
Maybe this is a bit off topic, but there has been self-driven water pumps (swedish) around for a couple of hundred years.
They are sueing you for IP Violations for the waterfall flowing up like the one seen in Epcot.
In Moncton, NB, Canada (where I was born), there is a tourist attraction called Magnetic Hill. It is a really cool experience where you park your car on a hill, and it (seemengly) rolls *up* the hill. This was not designed by "imagineers" or anyone else, it is a natrually occuring illusion... something to do with the way the land grades there in relation to the center of earths gravity. Water also flows uphill there.. totally naturally. Its the only place I know of in the world where this happens.
It seems Google provided me with two invalid links, and I didn't bother to check them before submit... I am sure everyone is aware of how to use Google though so I won't waste my time finding more links :P
... close to Comala in the state of Colima there is a stretch fo road in which one sees like going uphill as well.
Check it here.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
waste. it only floats for a while. what's notable is that afloat or completely submerged, it's still total bull, subject to gravity/decomposition, same as the rest of US.
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read all about it.
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lookout bullow. nothing but gnu skies,
for more insight: trustworthycomputing.com(owed)
frequent contact with yOUR creator is also highly recommended, in these times of whoreabull deceptive payper liesense stock markup FUDgePacking.
consult with yOUR creator. vote with yOUR wallet. lookout bullow.
The laws of physics have been defiled for years over at Gravity Hill.
Where have you been?
No man is an island, But if you take a bunch of dead guys and tie them together, they make a pretty good raft.
Lo que es la vida. No te vas a acordar pero nos reunimos un par de veces cuando yo estaba haciendo mis pininos en la UNAM como aministrador de sistemas.
Me da gusto ver la prominencia que has ganado gracias a tu trabajo.
Saludos.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
There is a waterfall at Disney's Epcot where water flows up. They simply use water jets that shoot water up from underneath the lake all the way to the top of the waterfall. Simple but effective (and not as cool as this story's fountain)
No, the one he's referring to (the famous one) is near Moncton, New Brunswick, and is called Magnetic Hill.
For his next trick....
Making the bubbles in a Guiness flow up!
www.eFax.com are spammers
Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada:
http://2hwy.com/nb/m/magnetic.htm
You're saying that anti-matter fall down, go boom? :^)
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
How does his invention differ from a free standing faucet? The concept is the same. Only the shape is different. May be his competitors will be able to make competing products based on slightly different shapes.
They already had one on the Simpson's for the southern hemisphere.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Those who have visited Ayrshire in Scotland will most likely have visited Electric Brae, which is just about the wierdest place I've ever been. Things roll uphill here, or at least appear to.
Here's a link, and here's another.
Bob
Listen to my latest album here
Instead, you mutually annihilate, creating a fairly large explosion, depending on how much anti-water you drink - or in this case self-immolate with :))
Though, if you're really REALLY thirsty, the burning dying sensations are similar.
Johns: Well, how does it look now? Riddick: Looks clear.
"a mile wide, an inch deep and runs uphill," as Lewis and Clark described it.
It's the Powder River, runs into the Yellowstone to the Missouri. There are places it appears to run uphill because the wind blows the surface backward. It's generally pretty shallow, hence 'the inch deep' and, well, the name.
There is no link I can point to on the web. Not even Google knows about it. Montana is very unwired.
I acknowledge the misspelled "off".
Could somebody please point out the punctuation errors and the hyphenation error? (I mean, there must be some teachers of English or high school valedictorians around here.)
Second attempt:
Irene KHAAAAAAN!
I really find it hard to believe that the tires in this ad could roll uphill. Other than that one mistake the ad is really cool! http://home.attbi.com/~bernhard36/honda-ad.html
He's spot-on.
What's the illusion?
and with the help of Google
I've been looking for info on what/where this place was since I was a kid and saw it on Ripliey's Believe it or Not or somthing...
Why was this modded off topic? It was about as off topic as anything other post here.
Stupid fucking moderators...
Ooh...one more good link.
As one drives east on I-70 out of Salina, Utah, into the Fishlake Wilderness, there is a stream alongside the highway that convincingly appears to be flowing the wrong way. My wife had to use our GPS to be sure that we were still going uphill. It seems that the mountains alongside the canyon are highest above the road and river at the lower elevations and that difference steadily diminishes as one drives up the road.
I had the opposite feeling driving down highway 191 from West Yellowstone, WY, to Bozeman, MT, alongside the Gallatin River.
Who cares how anit-water behaves with gravity?
If an antimatter atom came into contact with its matter cousin it would instantly obliterate both of them. Given that it is H and O we're talking about, your anti-water would last for all of a nano-second. If that.
...to Dyson's creation, and then perhaps only in...Oh, never mind. Bring me the head of Natalie Portman on a plate of hot grits!
I'm not a geek, I'm just a clever script.
Drive along 89 between North Lake Tahoe and Truckee and the river flows uphill...or at least appears that way.
You may (or not) be thinking of a place near Lewisberry, Pennsylvania
Nope. The parent poster's thinking of Magnetic Hill, NB, which is indeed near Moncton. I've been there, and it's really quite interesting. At the tender age of seven, I intuited that it was an optical illusion when I was there, but my parents explained it anyway.
I'm not a geek, I'm just a clever script.
A more geeky, and more satisfying, way to do it could use magnetohydrodynamics. With an appropriate association of electric current and magnetic field running through the water, you can force it to flow in the direction you like, even uphill. I don't know what kind of angle you could get out of it, nor how much flow, but I'd think it'd work for the 'slow relaxing garden waterfall'.
Anyone with a better memory of that physics field than me cares to comment ?
Non-Linux Penguins ?
This is novel. This is non-obvious. This is unique. This was inspired by someone elses ideas and artwork, and if Escher had unlimited IP rights like they give now-a-days he'd be suing this out of existence (so much for innovation) - but since he lived back in the good ol days his ideas are our ideas, and this dude put it to practice. I can see giving Tyson a patent for this. So, now, when I bash a patent as being obvious, stupid, non-unique, and other such crap you can all remember that today, I, Asscroft, actually advocated a patent. So it isn't patents I'm against, it's patent abuse. Remember that the next time you think I'm some sort of communist freak! If some of you feel this isn't a good use of a patent, please inform me!
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
When I was in Italy, not far from Rome, there is an entire mountain where not just water, but everything appears to be rolling uphill.
Couldn't find any links in Google on it, but I think the Italians called in La strada contrario (the contrary street).
All over the road cars are pulled over, as drivers take off the handbrake and laugh as their car rolls uphill.
People tried to explain to me how it works, but my Italian wasn't good enough.
That didn't use any bubbles to create the illusion either!
If the pattern goes 9am, 10am, 11am, why isn't noon 12am?
"When he's underwater does he get wet, or does the water get him in..."
Ah forget it.
Fuck! Damn it! That what I get for posting at 0200 in the morning half asleep. Fuck.
I meant to say "Water flows downhill. Sorry about that. I am glad this was modded down because I can make an ass out of myself in front of fewer people.
You can tell by the wave pattern that the water is flowing down the ramps. How *dumb* does he think his viewers are??
Any phd in fluid mechanics can see that. Jeesh.
Last time I was out in the Maritimes, I was told that a dam/causway was built to satisfy some rich landowners. This basically ruined the Tidal Bore because the water doesn't go as high anymore.
See this link for details.
Alan Greenspan is interested in this technology for use on the budget deficit.
Table-ized A.I.
Even better would be if you could find a way to make the water rise up into space and just pool there. That would be an amazing illusion.
I've seen the "floating spigot" illusion at trade shows, where water is piped up a transparent tube and then back down its outer surface, creating the illusion of a suspended spigot endlessly pumping water.
This sounds much cooler though.
Someone named an OS for me.
Here's a better picture of the place.
In the park of Krynica town in Poland, there is the REAL thing where water actually flows uphill. But there's no magic in that. Simply, there's quite a steep slope down which the stream runs, gaining considerable speed, and then a short part of the concrete bed of the stream runs uphill, where the water loses speed gradually, but not before it reaches the top, and continues downhill again. The uphill part is just several meters long and not really steep.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Irene KHAAAAAAN!
although on a really small scale. Manoj Chaudhury and George Whitesides (Harvard) published their results on making a water droplet move uphill on a gradient of surface energy. The water droplet moves (very slowly) from hydrophobic (lower part of inclined glass slide) to hydrophilic (higher part of inclined slide) region on the slide. Pretty cool. It was Published in Science a few years ago.
A lot of cool effects there. Though rather than use water they now seem to use a ball. But same effect.
We used a soda pop can for the rotor.
I was thinking that if you could spin a pop can, maybe you could push water uphill.
You might have to put salt in the water to increase its conductivity. It might shock the crap out of you if you stuck your hand in it, too.
WTF does this mean. Seriously - i mean what language is this even? French, Spanish? Miguel is mexican non? Why are you posting non-english here when you don't usually?
Hola otra vez. UNAM estaba fresco. Su gusto de la boca de pescados?
amor, paz, esperanza, muelle
Saludos
miguel
Before adopting WHATWG, read the moonlight.NET EULA [http://www.microsoft.com/interop/msnovellcollab/moonlight.mspx]
It's only a joke about Water :(
Caffine dehydrates me because if I drink a cup of coffee I have to pee more and sooner than if I had drunk a cup of water.
It is very significant. And it is devastating when combined with excessive exercise on a hot day. Blech.
But I still like coffee.
I think you'd see the adverse effect in the office if you let everyone come in and get their morning cuppa and then locked them out of the loo.
-- it must be true, it's on the internet.
I forgot that Miguel's handle in /. is a different one.
You got me pal. brownie points to you.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.