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More on Media Consolidation/Deregulation

I'll try to accumulate some links not previously posted. William Safire comments. The Register has an editorial; see also The Guardian for more on the British perspective. Associated Press story. The Washington Post has a good and lengthy (and rare) piece. The phone companies are making a cynical political announcement that they've agreed on a standard for fiber-to-the-home; that doesn't mean they'll ever use the standard, and indeed they've already promised *not* to roll it out anytime soon. Note that the FCC is removing any requirement for the Bells to share their fiber, so if Verizon runs fiber to your house, you'll be able to get Verizon service or none at all.

337 comments

  1. I have decided to consolidate Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    I'm looking to buy all Slashdot ID #'s in the 200,000-300,000 range, and post as one mega user. Anyone willing to sell?

    1. Re:I have decided to consolidate Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      -1 Off Topic? It's a perfect satire of what the FCC is attempting to do. Too bad I just used my last mod points elsewhere.

    2. Re:I have decided to consolidate Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How many do you have?

    3. Re:I have decided to consolidate Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too bad I'm out of range...

    4. Re:I have decided to consolidate Slashdot by jinglecat · · Score: 0

      All your SlashdotComments are belong to Offtopic.

      Nepenthe! Nepenthe!

    5. Re:I have decided to consolidate Slashdot by DonGar · · Score: 1

      How much are you offering?

      The price of a small phone or cable company seems like it would be perfectly acceptable. ;>

      --
      plus-good, double-plus-good
  2. So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by alen · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They spent the money to run it. I work for a CLEC and we have our own phone switches. If VZ jacks up the prices on their circuits, it will only hurt us for a little while since we flip customers to our own network. I doubt the telecom act of 1996 was meant to create an industry that relied on cheap prices by the bells and only on reselling. If you want to be a player in telecom then you need to invest in some infrastructure.

    1. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by mjmalone · · Score: 1

      Isn't it the case, though, that these companies get a tax break for running cableing to your house. Or does that only apply to coax or other specific kinds of wireing? If this is so then shouldnt other companies have access to at least that portion of the network?

    2. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by jcdick1 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but there are a great many considerations. I personally abhor the thought of every *LEC having to install their own infrastructure.

      In my opinion, anyone should be allowed to provide service of any kind over the lines, even if it is "Joe's Crab Shack and Telephone Company, home of Great Jambalaya and Intra-State Long Distance." However, I don't think that every city block should look like a Fort Apache from a Hollywood western because of the number of poles required to run lines to their own customers.

      Between electricity, ILEC and cable, there are entirely too many dead stripped trees in urban areas as it is.

      And wireless is just not there yet, nor will it be anytime soon, in my opinion. Not for 10 or 100 Mbit to each and every home in a neighborhood.

      --
      What?
    3. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by alen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm only an exchange 2000 admin, but any capital expenditure is tax deductible. A few years ago we were trying to convince management to treat us as consultants for the cost benefits to us and the company.

      The tax code is designed to foster business growth, not an excuse to socialize everything. Other companies are free to sell stock shares or bonds in order to pay for their own fiber projects just like Verizon does. Verizon owns something like $50 billion in debt to various bond holders. That's how they and a lot of other companies and governments finance capital projects like running fiber. Sell bonds, build, hope you make money on it and then pay for it over a few decades plus interest.

    4. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by u19925 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      many counties and cities have laws which will not allow you to lay a fiber into homes if similar thing already exist (even if it is owned by some monopolist). this means they will keep the prices so high that the total of (price*subscriber - cost) is the highest irrespective of what the price should have been if it were open market. Let us say, their internal research says following:

      1) at $300 rate, we can get 10000 subscribers
      2) at $30 rate, we can get 100,000 subscribers.
      3) the cost per subscriber is $10

      Now guess, what route they will take? obviously the first one. if competitors were allowed, you would see about $12-$15 rate, but thanks to monopoly; the rate is now $300!!!

      Some cities may have some oversight commission which will prevent such high prices, so they may settle slightly lower price. but they can always lie and say their fiber maintanance cost as $200.

      this is not my invention; this is exactly what is happening in local phone and cable market. i have exaggerated the figures in the example but overall the strategy is same. look at how the long distance rates have fallen over time (my per minute cost for long distance is 60% lower than decade ago) while local phone rates are going up (i am paying 40% more).

    5. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by alen · · Score: 1

      One of the rules of business is that only a minority will survive over the longterm. The telecom bust is proof of that. COmpanies like the one I work for are buying the remains of our competition from chapter 11. Not everyone is going to have to build out their networks.

    6. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like the problem is those problematic county/city laws then. You don't patch bad laws with more regulation to right a wrong. You get rid of the stupid law in the first place.

    7. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by kableh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They've been subsidized by the government for years, and they have right of way on public lands to lay their fiber and copper. I'd say the networks are just as much ours as they are the phone companies. That was the arguement for the open access provisions of the Telecommunications Act.

      And yea, if you want to be a player in telecom you have to make that investment, but do you really think that even the Bells have the clout to purchase all the right of way and coordinate with thousands of different buyers to lay the networks by themselves? That was why the government stepped in and helped, and that is why we demand a return on OUR (the taxpayer's) investment, namely, a competative market for the consumer.

    8. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by mc6809e · · Score: 1

      many counties and cities have laws which will not allow you to lay a fiber into homes if similar thing already exist (even if it is owned by some monopolist).

      Exactly right. What we need is deregulation at the local level.

      Remember though, that local governments get a lot of money because they
      allow local monopolies.

      Where I live, they get 5% of the cable company's GROSS.

      You think they're going to give this money up just to allow competition?

    9. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They spent the money to run it.

      The utilities were granted monopolies by the government in exchange for having to share their resources at some point in the future. We (the people) held up our end of the deal, and now that the time is come for Verizon et al. to do the same, they're just lobbying to have their end of the deal removed. So basically we gave them a monopoly so that they could give us the shaft. Great!

    10. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by StarTux · · Score: 1

      Whats stopping another smaller company actually paying Verizon who have the equipment to lay the wire?

    11. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by elmegil · · Score: 1
      Remember though, that local governments get a lot of money because they allow local monopolies.

      Those monopolies ought to come with strings attached, but of course local government doesn't have any spine as a general rule.

      --
      7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
    12. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by NialScorva · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Or perhaps we should realize that they are natural monopolies and stop pretending that they are anything else. Deregulation has been a huge failure. Look at the manufactured California energy crisis.

      Look at the airlines. If they only reason they exist at all is because the federal government keeps pumping billions of dollars into them, why should we pretend that they should be private industry?

      Some things just make more sense to be handled by the federal government.

    13. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by shepd · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >However, I don't think that every city block should look like a Fort Apache from a Hollywood western because of the number of poles required to run lines to their own customers.

      Most power poles are either owned by the city or your local electric company. In the first case they are public property and rented to telcos, etc. In the second case, they are usually still public property since few places have privatized electricity.

      Even if they are private poles, a company would be stupid to stop you from using them (at a modest fee).

      --
      If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
    14. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by drgroove · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There is an inherant flaw in the concept that any of the 'Baby Bells' actually built their networks.

      Keep in mind that once upon a time, the Federal Government controlled all telephony.

      The Fed deregulated their telephone infrastructure, creating a monopoly - AT&T.

      Eventually, a Fed antitrust suit via the DOJ broke AT&T into several 'Baby Bell' phone companies; each taking with them the network infrastructure for their specific geographical location.

      However, as the original network was built by the Federal Government, the funding for that network could only come from one source - taxpayer dollars.

      The networks have obviously been rebuilt several times since then; however, the point remains that the US telephony infrastructure had its genesis throught public funding.

      The current system does not work. Why? Because phone companies - which inherited their networks from the breakup of AT&T - are running their business with an inherant conflict of interest. Each Baby Bell has been asked to both provide telephony service, as well as to allow 3rd party companies access to their networks, in order to provide competitive telephony service.

      The model needs to be changed.

      In order to be completely impartial and competitive, a separate company or companies should be established, which manage only the network infrastructure for the phone system.

      Then, any company which wished to 'lease' or 'rent' the network for the purpose of providing telephony service to consummers would be able to do so.

      In this way, there would be a two-stage system, with a central governing body which controls the infrastructure, and separate service providers which charge consummers access to that infrastructure. This would eliminate the conflict of interest that is present in the current system, where the owner of the network is also a service provider to consummers, and therefore in direct competition with others who wish to sell telephony service.

      The idea that more companies should invest in additional infrastructure does not make sense for local telephone service. This concept, if carried out, could have dire consequences on the environment (ie, imagine a 10-fold increase in the number of telephone polls and wires across a city!). A network already exists in each city in the US - the problem is the way control of the network has been established.

      This same concept could theoretically be applied to all communications systems. Cable lines, cell towers, long distance satelites - all of these could have a controlling body, which impartially allows any number of resellers to use their infrastructure to offer services to consummers.

    15. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by shepd · · Score: 1

      >Deregulation has been a huge failure.

      Deregulation has been no more of a failure than Capitalism in (ex) Soviet Russia.

      The fact is that monopolistic companies, set free, haven't a clue how to operate. Some of them will wither and die, and in the process, fuck things up royally.

      >Look at the manufactured California energy crisis.

      Yay. In 20 years, tell me how things are. Converting from communism to capitalism takes time, and there'll be growing pains as things move ahead to a brighter future.

      Nobody said the change would be easy. But, if you believe in the free market, rather than communism, then you know it will happen, given time.

      They moved my Province (Ontario) to free market electricity not so long ago, and the prices doubled. People bitched and moaned, and the government re-socialized them to the old rates. Now I'm stuck with pathetic power that goes out weekly, and it takes 3 hours to fix a snapped power pole on a weekend. That's because of the old maxim:

      - Cheap
      - Reliable
      - Fast

      Pick two.

      I'd rather have the last two, myself. Too bad I can't because of all the communists.

      >If they only reason they exist at all is because the federal government keeps pumping billions of dollars into them, why should we pretend that they should be private industry?

      Then the answer is simple. Take away the funding and allow airlines to set their own rates. People will complain at the higher cost of travel, but with the increased disposable income from tax rebates, it won't matter -- they'll be able to afford it.

      >Some things just make more sense to be handled by the federal government.

      I haven't seen a single thing, other than the court system, that would make any sense to be handled by the feds (or any other level of government). Even the police are worried -- they know rent-a-cops do the same job at half the cost, and that if there were a free market, they'd be booted in no time.

      --
      If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
    16. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by chriso11 · · Score: 2

      I haven't seen a single thing, other than the court system, that would make any sense to be handled by the feds (or any other level of government). Even the police are worried -- they know rent-a-cops do the same job at half the cost, and that if there were a free market, they'd be booted in no time.

      I'll have to disagree with that. Let me provide several examples:
      The post office (USPS). The post office is now an independent business, but coupled to the government. I'm sorry, but I don't feel like having to deal with private companies for that (company A won't deliver to Iowa, it's not profitable, company b only supports packages of this minimum size... yadda yadda). Plus, the USPS has done a great job on combating fraud.

      Environmental Protection. The phrase "The fox guarding the Henhouse" applies to any private company. And I doubt that people who want less government would want the Sierra Club providing this function.

      Fire and Emergency Services. I can see "Sorry, your insurance doesn't cover this type of emergency - what is your credit card number". Yes, I know some ambulances are run by private companies.

      Tax Collection. Sorry, can't trust non-government entities.

      Military Defense. Sorry, I don't like the idea of private armies. Sounds too feudal to me.

      I don't trust most businesses because they are there to make money. It's always easier to cut a few corners to do a crappy job. And most non-profit organizations aren't any better - would you want the Jehovah's Witnesses in charge of building permits?

      --
      No, I don't trust in god. He'll have to pay up front, like everybody else.
    17. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by lobsterGun · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I wrote a really smarmy reply to this post, but have decided just to sum it up instead.

      Verizon lays it's fibre in the public trust. They run it across the yards of countless homeowners and through countless miles of public land. That gives the public some say in what Verizon does with that fibre. So when you say, "So what if Verizon doesn't have to share..." I say, "Then get that fibre off that fibre off my land."

    18. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by binarybum · · Score: 1

      shepd, I'm guessing you are not a native Canadian.
      If so, you are quite the iconoclast from what I can tell. You're completely right though. Of course weening corporations off of safety nets and cushy regulations will cause havoc at first. Imagine American Airlines going under -- a tragedy for people that depend on them for travel to certain destinations, but wait a few years and companies that have their proverbial shit together that are creeping into the market despite it being bloated and often not very profitable, like Jet Blue could certainly fill in the gap and provide better, cheaper service while they're at it.

      But I digress. I believe telco deregulation is largely beyond some of it's growing pains. The long distance issue is better than ever and the cell phone boom will continue to push wire prices down. The local issue is still a mess, and it looks like the only choices for local providers may soon be verizon and comcast, but I'd still rather this than lousy static government regulate garbage.

      As for the postal office example... I'm not sure I understand. Isn't it condtridictory to the poster's arguement that the postal service has improved as they've begun to separate from the government?

      --
      ôó
    19. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by shepd · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >Environmental Protection. The phrase "The fox guarding the Henhouse" applies to any private company. And I doubt that people who want less government would want the Sierra Club providing this function.

      We'd be better with neither. The EPA lies through it's teeth, despite court orders not to. The Sierra Club does whatever the hell it likes regardless of laws (stupid or not).

      I say let the people decide for themselves what level of "environmental protection" is right for them. They could either democratically vote to hire a company to support their views (locally, of course) or, better yet, simply speak with their wallets.

      >Fire and Emergency Services. I can see "Sorry, your insurance doesn't cover this type of emergency - what is your credit card number". Yes, I know some ambulances are run by private companies.

      And all Doctors take the hippocratic oath. You'll be "saved" despite having no funds. However, if you want quality, speedy healthcare, better than what we (in my province, for example) have now, you _should_ have to pay. It only makes sense, and it gives people just one more reason not to sit on their duffs jobless.

      >Tax Collection. Sorry, can't trust non-government entities.

      I'd have said the opposite. :) Take the GST, for example. A Canadian tax with collection procedures so complicated, some question wether it actually gathers enough to pay for it's own administration (it does, but it doesn't leave a whole lot left). However, minus the cost to business (passed on to consumers) this tax costs much more than it brings in.

      And then there's the dreaded audits... Help!

      The fact is that if we were to completely privatize everything reasonbly possible, taxes would be so low I doubt there'd be enough to collect to make it interesting to defraud.

      >It's always easier to cut a few corners to do a crappy job.

      And, at the same time, you can spend more and get the other half of the customers.

      That's why both wal-mart and Saks 5th Avenue sell clothes. They're both the same end product, just one of the companies doesn't cut corners. Both of them operate just fine, and give consumers a choice.

      Perhaps I _want_ to cut certain corners? Maybe a gravel road to my house would suit me just fine rather than a paved one? Maybe I live so far away from a city that having the same level of police protection is wasteful? Perhaps I want more telecommunications service than a 14.4 kbps maximum phone line? I wish I could make that decision rather than a government office miles removed.

      >And most non-profit organizations aren't any better - would you want the Jehovah's Witnesses in charge of building permits?

      Actually, I'd advocate no building permits. If you own land, you should be allowed to do anything you like with it, as long as you don't endanger lives or harm the property of others (and perhaps a handful of other things).

      Zoning regulations (and building permits) are horrible, and, in fact, increased the cost of leasing for my company by 60% because the location we wanted was zoned for Convenience stores only (not computer stores) and we had to find accomodation elsewhere, at an inflated price (which we certainly will pass on to customers, I'm not a charity. ;-)

      Hey, just my 2 cents!

      --
      If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
    20. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by shepd · · Score: 1

      >shepd, I'm guessing you are not a native Canadian. If so, you are quite the iconoclast from what I can tell.

      Actually, I am born and raised Canadian. I started despising the level of government services here when I discovered, as an atheist, I'd have to pay for religious indoctrination of others (the separate school system). It's quite disgusting that my money will pay for students to learn the the earth was created by a malevolent God in 6 days, and that everthing alive was inbred from two "original" progenetors of that species. No offense to the religious intended, though.

      The whole teacher's strike thing, where my taxes didn't decrease despite a reduced level of service, pushed it over the edge. In the real world (tm) schools with striking teachers would either hire scabs or go out of business (prefe.

      And then my union started abusing me. That pretty much cut it right there, and at that point I turned libertarian.

      It's fun explaining your political views to virtually every person you meet in your town (only if they ask who I'm voting for, cause nobody here knows what libertarians are). I think a lot of Ontarians haven't considered just what Mike Harris was really working towards (to a certain degree -- there's a lot of personal freedom issues that he never dealt with). Perhaps if they did they'd just have voted libertarian and been done with it. ;-)

      Now, to see if my podunk riding actually has a libertarian candidate to vote for...

      --
      If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
    21. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by geekee · · Score: 1

      The same situation turned the phone company into a monopoly in the US. Cities only let Bell run phone cable, so the monopoly was govt. sanctioned. Without the ability of mutliple companies to run their own fiber to your home, there will be no free market system in broadband data either. If you're going to deregulate, you need to completely deregulate to provide the incentives for true comtetition.

      --
      Vote for Pedro
    22. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by geekee · · Score: 1

      In theory you may be correct, but it would be unfair to steal the network infrastructure from the companies that own it just because the govt. made bad decisions in the past. For better or worse, the baby bells own the current telephony infrastructure. The good news is that this network is obsolete. The bad news is their going to repeat the same mistake with fiber. The govt. will only allow one provider to send fiber to your home and that provider will have a govt. granted monopoly.

      --
      Vote for Pedro
    23. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by rsborg · · Score: 1
      Or perhaps we should realize that they are natural monopolies and stop pretending that they are anything else. Deregulation has been a huge failure. Look at the manufactured California energy crisis.

      Agreee completely.

      Some things just make more sense to be handled by the federal government.

      Don't completely agree here, try:
      s/federal//
      Most local governments are perfectly capable of handling the "last mile" problem and can be efficient when they need to. Wasn't that the whole point of a decentralized governance, to avoid the "emipre" and "king" problems of distribution? We need to respect natural monopolies, yes. But local governance is best at handling local monopolies.

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    24. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by tez_h · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Actually, I'd advocate no building permits. If you own land, you should be allowed to do anything you like with it, as long as you don't endanger lives or harm the property of others (and perhaps a handful of other things).
      Yes, and I'd advocate no driving licenses. If you own a car, you should be able to do anything you like with it, as long as you don't run over people or crash into others' cars (and a handful of other things).

      Of course, this is a view that relies on an almost entirely rational, common-sensical, well-behaved society. But since real societies are filled with those with less than an acceptable consideration for others and those who seem to actively defy common sense, we need to test and verify before allowing people on to the road or to build a building.

      -Tez

      --
      Haskell, the static-typed, lazy, polymorphic, programming language.
    25. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by Moofie · · Score: 1

      Because Verizon is perfectly happy to maintain their monopoly.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    26. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, I'd say that's a false analogy.

      He was referring to building on his own property. As far as driving/roads are concerned, this is someone else's property. Whether this is government funded or privately owned, the owners are entitled to have restrictions on who uses their roads. So his comment about eliminating building permits does NOT seem to have real inconsistencies or illogical implications. I still agree with him.

    27. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by miu · · Score: 1
      Actually, I'd advocate no building permits. If you own land, you should be allowed to do anything you like with it, as long as you don't endanger lives or harm the property of others (and perhaps a handful of other things).

      But are you qualified to judge 'harm' to someone elses property? Leaving resolution of such disputes to the property owners involved would probably not provide an optimal solution.

      Government regulations sometimes suck, but they suck less than anarchy of any variety.

      --

      [Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
    28. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by fenix+down · · Score: 1

      The ruling against the EPA you linked to has nothing about them lying. He disputes none of their findings, and peer reviews of that study have backed it up. What he was pissed about was that they didn't let the fox guard the henhouse. He basically just scolded them for doubting the numbers the tobacco industry consultants sent them. Go back and look at the judge for that case's record. Whenever anybody so much as mentions cigarettes, he just votes whichever way best conveys "I love Philip Moris!" The guy's a hack. The only reason that story gets spread around is Junk Science linked to it, and so everybody assumes it's cool and rebelious to talk about it.

      Incidentally, I think you went a little too far forward on the Libertarian train. On the anarchy-totalitarianism political scale, you're trying to balance the increased productivity strong attrition brings against the detriments of the mounting death toll. More or less, if you're trying to be Libertarian, you have to make sure the new system makes enough extra money to still hold a profit after you clean up the corpses of the poor people that are going to starve to death.

      If, for example, you vote to eliminate building permits, you have to be willing to pay to deal with the increased number of abandoned Barbie Dream-Deathtraps that will produce. There's plenty of wiggle room in the death/money scale, but between the costs of the hyperspecialization you're looking for in telecommunications, and the luxury-centered healthcare system, I think you're going to have to either get used to the stench of rotting corpses, or cut off your $2000 a month DSL line.

    29. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by fenix+down · · Score: 1

      Shhh! You can't say that here! Deregulation always, always, always works! It works because the world economy is a perfectly logical, completely researched and analyzed system that can be represented with a simple equation! All this talk about economics being barely mature enough to even be called a science is just nonsense! The numbers say deregulation works in an ideal system, and since deregulation always works, we must have an ideal system, and so deregulation must work! If you disagree, your brain must be broken.

    30. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish I had +5 Funny mod points!

    31. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So it would be okay for Trump to buy some of your suburban neighbors' properties and put a towering oil refinery next door to you? Bummer for your libertarian property values.

    32. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, that wouldn't be OK, since what he's doing on his property *IS* infringing on other's rights and harming others. That's the catch. Libertarian property freedoms go as far as they can until you infringe on other's rights. So I still don't see the problem.

    33. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by bezuwork's+friend · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Actually, I'd advocate no building permits. If you own land, you should be allowed to do anything you like with it, as long as you don't endanger lives or harm the property of others (and perhaps a handful of other things).

      But are you qualified to judge 'harm' to someone elses property? Leaving resolution of such disputes to the property owners involved would probably not provide an optimal solution.

      Government regulations sometimes suck, but they suck less than anarchy of any variety.

      (1) Actually, while the government can remedy illegal property use, property owners have a large burden of judging the harm even under ordinaces. I have an anal neighbor couple who cut down a tree on my property and last year removed a bed of ivy from my property. Both instances involved the harms of trespass and destruction of property. The police didn't want to get involved. It was up to me to judge the harm and respond if I chose.

      (2) Why would a relaxation of regulations result in anarchy? Even with ordinances and regulations, violations occur and end up in court. Without ordinances there would still be the common law to remedy undesiriable property use. Such things as trespass, trespass on the case (generally used for indirect trespass such as noxious fumes or smells, flooding from a neighbors water reserve, etc.), and so forth could still be remedied in court. And the courts would create new common law for any property use deemed undesirable by society which wasn't covered by existing law.

      I think the grandparent poster was mainly referring to the seemingly overabundance of ordinances these days against property use which violates so-called public sensibilities.

      Look to the extreme of regulation - homeowner's associations. While these are built on contract law and not government ordinances, the authoritarian control is perhaps similar. Thank god I don't have a homeowner's association - I am sure that I couldn't handle it. I hear stories of people who are continually in fights with their associations and self-appointed neighbors who patrol the back sides of property looking for violations. The restrictions seem to get on people's nerves sooner or later. They can control what color can be used to paint the house, what fences are allowable, what plants can be used. Ouch!

      Idealistically, I agree with the grandparent post. Live and let live - let each owner use his or her property as he or she wishes so long as it does not endanger others or infringe on other's rights.

    34. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by 2short · · Score: 1

      Right. When you want to build something on your property, it makes sense that you be subject to restrictions regarding its impact on others. Generally, these restrictions take the form of requiring you to get a "building permit". Glad you agree with them.

      More broadly, it always pisses me off when people say "It's my property, I should bea ble to do whatever I want." Go look at the deed that says it's your property. Determine the issuing authority. Unless it says "God Almighty", I think someone can tell you what you can and can't do on your property.

    35. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by shepd · · Score: 1

      >But since real societies are filled with those with less than an acceptable consideration for others and those who seem to actively defy common sense, we need to test and verify before allowing people on to the road or to build a building.

      Whether or not we require licenses people drive without them anyways.

      Unless you build DRM into cars and require drivers to swipe their license to start the car, bad drivers will still find keys and drive. If they don't own vehicles, some of them will even steal them.

      Just watch an episode of COPS and tell me how long it takes before someone is caught driving without a license. And, for the proverbial cherry on top, listen when the police officer says how many times they've been caught doing it.

      Licenses are just another government tax and have never stopped a bad driver from driving. And, unless you turn the country into a police state, they never will.

      --
      If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
    36. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by shepd · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >He disputes none of their findings, and peer reviews of that study have backed it up.

      Huh?

      Let me give you a quote from another site:

      "Judge Osteen determined that the EPA had "cherry picked" its data and had grossly manipulated "scientific procedure and scientific norms" in order to rationalize the agency's own preconceived conclusion that passive smoking caused 3,000 lung cancer deaths a year. In addition, Osteen ruled that the EPA had violated the Radon Act, which was the agency's authority for disseminating its "de facto regulatory scheme" that intended to prohibit passive smoking."

      So, let's see, no they weren't lying. In other news, everyone on earth is white. How did I come to that conclusion? I only interviewed the British Royal Family.

      So, on one hand, no, they're not lying. On the other hand, they're lying to themselves.

      >Whenever anybody so much as mentions cigarettes, he just votes whichever way best conveys "I love Philip Moris!" The guy's a hack.

      And you libel a perfectly innocent man without providing any proof to back up your claims. People like you are the foundation of bad EPA studies like this one.

      >The only reason that story gets spread around is Junk Science linked to it, and so everybody assumes it's cool and rebelious to talk about it.

      No, it gets spread around because NUMEROUS studies have shown it to be false. Here's a link to at least 8 major international studies that have shown that SHS doesn't cause lung cancer. And, moreso, improves the health of young children (don't believe me? Ask the WHO). In fact, here's some facts the EPA gave judge Osteen to "back up" their case.

      Svendsen Study (1987): No Dose Response Effect
      Kalandidi Study (1987): No Dose Response Effect
      Masi Study (1988): Strongest effect in Men for exposure before age 17 yr.
      Kauffmann Study (1989): Increased risks for respiratory symptoms did not reach statistical significance
      Hole Study (1989): No significant increase in risk of symptoms
      Schwartz and Zeger (1990): Over-reporting by exposed subjects may bias results

      Clearly, if this is the best evidence the EPA has, it's pathetic.

      >More or less, if you're trying to be Libertarian, you have to make sure the new system makes enough extra money to still hold a profit after you clean up the corpses of the poor people that are going to starve to death.

      You clearly don't have the slightest clue about libertarian ideology. Study it more and get back to me when you understand it better.

      BTW: Far more people died in communist gulags and exploding nuclear power plants than have ever died under a free market, democratic system. There is positively no evidence to back up your case, as far as I can tell.

      >If, for example, you vote to eliminate building permits, you have to be willing to pay to deal with the increased number of abandoned Barbie Dream-Deathtraps that will produce.

      Why would I pay for that? That's a communist notion, that the populous should pay for the mistakes of the one. The builder of the deathtrap would be the one to pay, clearly. Where you got the idea that you and I should pay, well, I really don't know.

      >There's plenty of wiggle room in the death/money scale, but between the costs of the hyperspecialization you're looking for in telecommunications, and the luxury-centered healthcare system, I think you're going to have to either get used to the stench of rotting corpses, or cut off your $2000 a month DSL line.

      ??? You are confusing me. More people have died as a result of communism than any other system. Look at what Communist China does when it has problems. People are only expendable when they have no self-control.

      Wow. I really don't have much else to say other than that you should put down the hammer and sicle for a moment and consider why communist flags are blood red.

      --
      If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
    37. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by shepd · · Score: 1

      >Generally, these restrictions take the form of requiring you to get a "building permit". Glad you agree with them.

      No, no, no. That's not how it works.

      These restrictions take the form of laws. As with all laws you have the freedom to break them. You simply pay for the consequences of doing so. An intelligent society simply sets the consequences high enough that most people aren't interested in doing such things.

      _That's_ what the libertarian philosophy is all about. Freedom. Freedom is not assuming you are a criminal that has to have their activities monitored like some scoundrel.

      Freedom is being able to do what you feel is right, and paying your dues if you make mistakes.

      >Go look at the deed that says it's your property. Determine the issuing authority. Unless it says "God Almighty", I think someone can tell you what you can and can't do on your property.

      And that's the problem, isn't it?

      It's the thought that you never really do own your own property that makes it illegal for gays in Texas to do whatever they like inside their own homes as long as nobody else has to hear about it.

      I think it's high time to take the diapers off society and let people be responsible for their own actions.

      --
      If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
    38. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by Martin+Blank · · Score: 2, Interesting

      but they can always lie and say their fiber maintanance cost as $200.

      Reminds me of the time the SBC rep told me what a deal I was getting on voice-mail, since it cost SBC 'almost $100' for each account to be set up with it. That must be one very expensive technician doing that work to set it up. :P

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    39. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      I dunno... My brother had his license suspended for six months for speeding (105mph), and the car stayed in his driveway except for when he had to move it to avoid the mower throwing rocks up that might scratch it. He got a ride to and from work, and he even resorted to taking the bus a couple of times. Since then, he's been an exceptionally careful driver.

      Might only be one case, but it still worked fairly well in this one.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    40. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by shepd · · Score: 1

      >Might only be one case, but it still worked fairly well in this one.

      That's because your brother is a decent, moral, law abiding person. While driving at that speed is usually dangerous, the people society really need to worry about are the hardcore criminals that will stop at nothing to get their way. I doubt your brother would purposely harm anyone without a legitimate reason, and I bet if he were given his license back the day after being caught speeding, he wouldn't drive like a maniac anymore.

      He isn't really a "bad driver", just a regular driver that needed some helpful guidance. I see no reason why he needs to be treated as a criminal, like those that would habitually drive like crazy mofos. :-)

      Again, just my 2 cents.

      --
      If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
    41. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by inKubus · · Score: 1

      Yeah, really the government should do a study to figure out how much it would cost to fiber everything, to the curb or to the pole. Then, they could design some sort of standardized connectors for fiber, a new protocol also, and then the cable/phone companies could lease time/bandwidth from it. Sort of like the banking industry--where the government owns all the money, the banks just lease it from them for an interest rate... or many other things already discussed. Some things are better run by government..

      But, this will never happen, because it will throw off the class structure so carefully built by the one way media. If everyone had high speed data connectivity, everyone would be able to communicate with everyone, especially the working class, meaning that they could possibly organize a revolution of some kind, ie: communism.

      Better to keep the advanced tools of communication in the hands of the prosperous for as long as possible until they can catch up with laws, regulations, and ways to copy/tap the messages for their own control.

      Perhaps maybe it's time we start to think differently. But you have to examine the sociological impact. Frankly, the world/U.S. is not ready for government sponsored fiber to the curb. However, there is a small demand for this service so private industry has been created to deal with that demand.

      And yet again, because the government is staying out of it, we have monopolies forming, etc, just like AT&T in the 70's and 80's. Dark times ahead, fellas.

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
    42. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by klevin · · Score: 1

      I don't trust most businesses because they are there to make money. It's always easier to cut a few corners to do a crappy job. And most non-profit organizations aren't any better - would you want the Jehovah's Witnesses in charge of building permits?

      Not that we'd take the job, but I challenge you to find a more efficient and honest organization anywhere in the world.
    43. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by drgroove · · Score: 1

      Yes, you're completely correct. The government does not think that the system they implemented w/ the breakup of AT&T is a monopoly, as there are currently 3 Baby Bell conglomerates which provide local telephone service.

      However, it essentially is a monopoly, as there really is only one baby bell local phone provider per geographic region. So, for consummers in that region, there is only 1 choice; a monopolistic, predatory, price-fixed phone provider.

      The best thing that could happen would be for BellSouth, Verizon, and SBC to spin off their phone service sales departments into different companies, and make the network infrastructure a separate company. This same concept would also work for DSL, Cable, etc.

      Unfortunately, it seems as though it would take an act of Congress or the DOJ to make this happen, on any telecom front.

    44. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by kinzillah · · Score: 1
      > Actually, I'd advocate no building permits. If you own land, you should be allowed to do anything you like with it, as long as you don't endanger lives or harm the property of others (and perhaps a handful of other things).

      Unfortunatly, as proven by numerous warning labels on all sorts or products, if you let someone do something stupid, they will probably end up dead. Not that I think that the whole survival of the fittest (smartest) thing wouldn't aid society greatly, but it is technically the responsibility of the government to protect the dumbasses from themselves.

      --
      Douglas P. Price
    45. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by Xabraxas · · Score: 0
      Yay. In 20 years, tell me how things are. Converting from communism to capitalism takes time, and there'll be growing pains as things move ahead to a brighter future.

      Nobody said the change would be easy. But, if you believe in the free market, rather than communism, then you know it will happen, given time.

      Funny becuase the reason it is so bad is because of deregulation. The market is more free than it is in the US and it is causing major problems. Without regulation, corporations are left to do only what they are meant to do, make money, and that is at the expense of the consumer. We shouldn't pretend that corporations are there to look out for us, that's not their job, it's the government's job.

      --
      Time makes more converts than reason
    46. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by shepd · · Score: 1

      >Funny becuase the reason it is so bad is because of deregulation.

      No, that statement itself is funny.

      >The market is more free than it is in the US and it is causing major problems.

      Where? In Ontario? Yes, it's been more free (somewhat) for about 2 years, if we're talking electricity and gas service. That's 10% of my estimated time it'll take. It simply takes a long time to convert to a free market. The deep-seated problems associated with communist services take a long time to weed out.

      And, to top it all off, how many times has your phone not worked lately? Guess what, in Ontario the entire phone service is now privatized and we have some of the lowest (if not THE lowest) rates for phone service in the entire world, despite the fact that it costs more to hook up this vast country than most other developed nations.

      Would you like to go back to paying $200 an hour to talk to people in Europe? I know I don't.

      >Without regulation, corporations are left to do only what they are meant to do, make money, and that is at the expense of the consumer.

      Exactly. And what do you think governments are left to do? Make money!

      You know what's nice about corporations, though? If any one company had a debt as high as the Canadian governments' they'd be booted out of business in no time.

      The crushing debt caused by government funded services is ruining this country by encouraging investors to find better prospects.

      Another plus of corporate run services is that _you_ decide if you want them to exist or not. If you aren't happy with how something is run, you don't buy it. However, if you're not happy with a government service, what can you do? Complain to an Ombudsman? Like hell that'll do you any good.

      >We shouldn't pretend that corporations are there to look out for us, that's not their job, it's the government's job.

      When has the government looked out for your interests lately? Because of government people are dying in hospitals, they're dying from dirty water, dying from decrepit military equipment, an entire city has been jokingly named sarsborough, I can't participate in American culture, and my Grandmother has been denied medical services because no hospital and few nursing homes will take my money (she's not a landed immigrant yet, she's in limbo land right now for citizenship) and the worst part of it all is that the government stays in business using your money after events and policies like these.

      If WalMart had killed a dozen people through a negligently run water supply you'd never buy water there again, and they'd be sued up the wazoo. But if it's the government, well, you don't have a choice, do you? I suppose you could dig a well, but wait, you're not zoned for it.

      Don't believe me? Compare and contrast the number of corporate scandals that make front page of your local news to the number of government scandals that do.

      There's only (normally) three people whose job it is to look out for you, and for two of them, their job officially ends when you turn 18.

      So, tell me, if corporations are so poor at looking after their consumers, how many people in Canada have died from Mad Cow in Alberta beef? How many people die from PeTA (or whoever does it nowadays) poisoned turkeys on thanksgiving?

      If people are expendable to corporations, why would they waste so much money ensuring our safety?

      I'll tell you why: A dead person can't pay, and the living get the hint pretty quickly. Although, to the government, you're better off dead. That way they can tax your inheritors. And, as an added bonus, they don't have to pay for your medical services anymore.

      --
      If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
    47. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by 2short · · Score: 1

      Uh, it seems to me that in ANY system you are free to break the laws if you are willing to take the consequences. You can speak out against the government in an oppressive dictatorship if you are willing to get shot, but I wouldn't call it freedom.

      I firmly believe that if it doesn't affect someone else, you should be able to do whatever the hell you want. Which should make clear my position on people in their own homes having sex, getting high, listening to country music, etc.

      My frustration about building permits is that a lot of people who call themselves libertarians like to argue from this priciple to a lot of things that do affect others, even though they do it on their own land. Building unsafe housing, filling wetlands, dumping toxic waste. Sure we can just hold them responsible for their actions. (Unless they're already dead). And I'm sure we wont find out that a lot of people turn out to be irresponsible, and just figure they won't get caught (at least not before they're already dead.)

      You can own your property. It's a nice feature of our society. In exchange for this nice feature, if you want to do something that's going to affect your property for longer than it's going to be your property, we'd like some say in it. If you wan't to do something on it that's going to affect others or their property, we'd like some say in it. If that's not "really" owning your property, sorry, tough luck.

      There are some people out there who insist they should have a say in it even if what you're doing won't affect anyone else or their property. These are known as "shitheads".

    48. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by Xabraxas · · Score: 0
      Where? In Ontario? Yes, it's been more free (somewhat) for about 2 years, if we're talking electricity and gas service. That's 10% of my estimated time it'll take. It simply takes a long time to convert to a free market. The deep-seated problems associated with communist services take a long time to weed out.

      First of all I was talking about deregultion in Russia. Maybe if you read the post you would know. Second I do understand that the Government does some shady stuff, espcecially lately. The answer is not to give it away to corporations who have no reason to even care about the consumer and no duty to either. We must fix government because it is the duty of the government to take care of its people, not corporations.

      If WalMart had killed a dozen people through a negligently run water supply you'd never buy water there again, and they'd be sued up the wazoo. But if it's the government, well, you don't have a choice, do you? I suppose you could dig a well, but wait, you're not zoned for it.

      Marketing baby. Marketing and monopoly. I would definitely buy water there if it was the only place to buy water, no matter how bad it is. I have no choice and I have nowhere to file a grievance. Suing large companies usually gets you nowhere. Who do you think is going to win in a case like that, someone making 30,000 a year or a corporation making 30 billion a year? Also look at MS. They make an inferior product that beats out better software that's free. People will keep buying into marketing no matter how bad it is.

      Don't believe me? Compare and contrast the number of corporate scandals that make front page of your local news to the number of government scandals that do.

      Politcal scandals nowadays tend to either be about personal doings which are no one's else's business or involve corporations themselves, like Halliburton. The corporate scandals tend to be along the lines of Enron, which is an obvious reason for more regulation.

      There's only (normally) three people whose job it is to look out for you, and for two of them, their job officially ends when you turn 18.

      This statement reminds me of an article about a conservative who believed much the same thing. That was until she and her husband lost their jobs. Now she's fighting to keep government programs. The article was in The Nation a few weeks ago. The point being that it's nice in theory to do that but people are not always in a position to help themselves (just like how communism is nice in theory).

      BTW I live in the US.

      --
      Time makes more converts than reason
    49. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by shepd · · Score: 1

      >My frustration about building permits is that a lot of people who call themselves libertarians like to argue from this priciple to a lot of things that do affect others, even though they do it on their own land. Building unsafe housing

      How does that affect you unless I permit you on my property? And if you do get hurt, you can still sue.

      >filling wetlands

      If I owned it, so what? If, for some reason, they're supposed to be "protected", then perhaps selling them to people is a bad idea!

      >dumping toxic waste

      You mean illegally? If you harm someone's property, that's against the law. Now, if you mean "dumping" it on property you own, then what's the problem?

      If it leeches onto someone else's property, again, that person has been violated and will sue you.

      >Sure we can just hold them responsible for their actions. (Unless they're already dead).

      Bingo. Generally, most people don't die all that suddenly, and generally, if you're sickening to the point of death, you're not going to be interested in illegal dumping, wetland destruction, or any number of other things. You'll probably just want to lie on a bed and get it over with.

      >And I'm sure we wont find out that a lot of people turn out to be irresponsible, and just figure they won't get caught (at least not before they're already dead.)

      Like who? People aren't fruit flies, they usually live for decades. There aren't a lot of serious crimes that are so old that the perpetrator is likely dead. Sure, there's some, but we must be talking the millionths of a percent at that point.

      >You can own your property. It's a nice feature of our society. In exchange for this nice feature, if you want to do something that's going to affect your property for longer than it's going to be your property, we'd like some say in it.

      Your say should be devaluing my property. If I used it as a nuclear waste dump, but didn't harm any surrounding property in doing so, the only say should be the fact I can't even give the land away.

      >If you wan't to do something on it that's going to affect others or their property, we'd like some say in it. If that's not "really" owning your property, sorry, tough luck.

      Great. So you want to be able to tell me what I can do with my property?

      I was just at the zoning commision about the property I want to rent. They say I can do it, but, for God only knows what reason, I can't have a structure on the land under 1 meter tall. This is the dumb crap people have to put up with because everyone runs about like chicken little thinking I'm going to build a nuclear reactor in their backyard. It's insane. You're more likely to be run over by a car, shot, or any number of other things than die (or be harmed) from someone wanting to do something unusual with their property.

      >There are some people out there who insist they should have a say in it even if what you're doing won't affect anyone else or their property. These are known as "shitheads".

      And there's the problem. Who is going to watch that there's no shitheads forcing buildings on my property to be over 1 m tall? And who will watch the watchers? And who will watch the watchers of the watchers?

      Too much power breeds corruption, or at the very least, idiotic laws to justify the zoning commisions' own existence.

      Now, if I could organize a way to vote that shithead out of office, I might be more comfortable with that. But how can I do that? And why is the zoning book for my city 2000 pages thick?

      Because there's 1900 shitheads working for the city.

      --
      If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
    50. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by shepd · · Score: 1

      >I would definitely buy water there if it was the only place to buy water, no matter how bad it is. I have no choice and I have nowhere to file a grievance.

      So, you're in the same boat, however I disagree with you that there's nowhere to file a grievance. It takes less than 30 minutes to fill out a small claims suit. Sue them under antitrust regulations if they have a monopoly and aren't providing a safe service. Seems clear and cut. You'd win without a lawyer.

      >Suing large companies usually gets you nowhere.

      Tell that to McDonald's. All they did was serve coffee that was "too hot" and lost millions of dollars. Imagine the result if they purposely served poisoned coffee.

      >Who do you think is going to win in a case like that, someone making 30,000 a year or a corporation making 30 billion a year?

      Clearly, the person in the right. And sometimes (eg. again, McDonald's coffee lady) it isn't the person in the right, and even then, it isn't always the person with the most money.

      >Also look at MS. They make an inferior product that beats out better software that's free.

      The product might be inferior, but it isn't hurting anybody (and if it is, MS already told you in BIG LETTERS not to use it for that purpose). The fact is people are paying for it because they want it. That might be because of better marketing. Whatever the reason, especially today, you don't need MS software to "survive". Sure, you might need it for your job, but even then, learning Microsoft Windows isn't going to leave you impaired in any way.

      >Politcal scandals nowadays tend to either be about personal doings which are no one's else's business or involve corporations themselves, like Halliburton. The corporate scandals tend to be along the lines of Enron, which is an obvious reason for more regulation.

      Hmmm, I have heard in the US that newspapers tend to be like this. In Ontario, they prefer to focus on what the government is ruining. In my case, the "big things" tend to be:

      - Is the government ruining education, is privatization of the phone system/hydro a good thing, (locally) how bad did the city screw us over on RIM park, etc, etc.

      Rarely do the leaders get their personal lives exposed, except in a few trashy newspapers, or as part of the "editorial" section. Hey, why not take a look at my local paper and see for yourself! :)

      (If the registration is a PITA, and it certainly is, try the Sun)

      >The point being that it's nice in theory to do that but people are not always in a position to help themselves (just like how communism is nice in theory).

      It all depends on how much you believe in something. We're all selfish at heart, and most people, when pushed, will change their minds to suit their needs.

      Right now I'd love to tax the hell out of all my competing businesses, but if mine went flat, I couldn't care less. That's human nature. And it's that selfishness (which that conservative is showing in abundance!) that is the reason why people can, and should, be responsible for themselves. Even when they are pretending they aren't, they really are.

      --
      If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
    51. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by yourmom16 · · Score: 1

      Read the quote you gave. He says as long as you dont endanger lives not as long as you dont kill people. If you dont know how to drive then you will endanger lives if you drive, even if you dont crash. Buildng permits are completely different. Building permits just state that you will follow the zoning requirements; Building a computer store in a place zoned for a convenience store(an example given by the parent) doesn't endanger lives.

      --
      "We have got to make Stan understand the importance of voting, because he'll definitely vote for our guy." - South Park
    52. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by Xabraxas · · Score: 0
      So, you're in the same boat, however I disagree with you that there's nowhere to file a grievance. It takes less than 30 minutes to fill out a small claims suit. Sue them under antitrust regulations if they have a monopoly and aren't providing a safe service. Seems clear and cut. You'd win without a lawyer.

      Unfortunately it would take thousands of small claims suits in order to effectively do any damage to a large corporation.

      Clearly, the person in the right. And sometimes (eg. again, McDonald's coffee lady) it isn't the person in the right, and even then, it isn't always the person with the most money.

      True, "it isn't always the person with the most money" but some poor shmoe who gets screwed by a multi-billion dollar corporation has little recourse. Filing a "real" suit is unfeasible if you do not have the money to hire a lawyer and those people shouldn't be denied their right to not be exploited by large corporations. Even if he filed a grievance in small claims court, that would do nothing to stop the corporation from continuing it malpractice. Small claims is only civil and does nothing more than mildly annoy a large corporation, more because of time than actual money.

      Hmmm, I have heard in the US that newspapers tend to be like this. In Ontario, they prefer to focus on what the government is ruining. In my case, the "big things" tend to be: - Is the government ruining education, is privatization of the phone system/hydro a good thing, (locally) how bad did the city screw us over on RIM park, etc, etc. Rarely do the leaders get their personal lives exposed, except in a few trashy newspapers, or as part of the "editorial" section. Hey, why not take a look at my local paper and see for yourself! :)

      Unfortunately the present US Administration's personal matters are ruining the country.

      It all depends on how much you believe in something. We're all selfish at heart, and most people, when pushed, will change their minds to suit their needs.

      Speak for yourself please. I do agree that most people are selfish but not all and just because they may be in the majority, that doesn't make it right.

      Right now I'd love to tax the hell out of all my competing businesses, but if mine went flat, I couldn't care less. That's human nature. And it's that selfishness (which that conservative is showing in abundance!) that is the reason why people can, and should, be responsible for themselves. Even when they are pretending they aren't, they really are.

      Selfishness makes you feel this way because of it's inherent short-sightedness. Being selfish helps you in the short run but stifles humanity in the long run. The world wouldn't be as advanced as it is today without people giving up that short-sighted, selfish point of view (Think OSS). Personally I couldn't fathom screwing everyone else for my personal gain. Sure I want things out of life but exploiting other people to do it doesn't justify the end to me. People are perfectly capable of working together, and not against each other. Unfortunately greed gets in the way. Consequently eliminating the ability to obtain such vast amounts of wealth at the expense of the news-reading people only seems like a good idea to me.

      --
      Time makes more converts than reason
    53. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by Xabraxas · · Score: 0
      Sorry, last sentence should read:

      Consequently eliminating the ability to obtain such vast amounts of wealth (at the expense of the news-reading public) only seems like a good idea to me.

      --
      Time makes more converts than reason
    54. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by 2short · · Score: 1

      >>Building unsafe housing

      >How does that affect you unless I permit you on my property? And if you do get hurt, you can still sue.

      Good building permit rules derive from the fact that it's often difficult to tell if buildings are built safely after the fact. Assume you build a house with a crappy foundation, then sell it to me assuring me it's rock-solid. Eventually, it falls down and kills me. I don't expect I would gain much satisfaction from suing you.

      >>filling wetlands

      >If I owned it, so what? If, for some reason, they're supposed to be "protected", then perhaps selling them to people is a bad idea!

      You fill some wetlands, your neighbor fills some, etc. etc. Eventually, massive flooding downstream wipes out hundreds of homes. Which of the thousands of people who filled small wetlands should we sue? Will this make it better? There are various reasons various aspects of the land should be "protected". Would you prefer we say "you can't do that on this piece of your land" or "We don't want to interfere with your doing whatever you want on your land, so we're taking this piece away from you."

      "Bingo. Generally, most people don't die all that suddenly"

      Of course they do. On the time scale filling wetlands, dumping toxics, etc. are going to continue to have an effect, we ARE fruitflies.

      > If I used it as a nuclear waste dump, but didn't harm any surrounding property in doing so, the only say should be the fact I can't even give the land away.

      If you use it as a nuclear waste dump, the land will be unusable for many thousands of years. How exactly are you not going to give it away?

      >Great. So you want to be able to tell me what I can do with my property?
      You want it to be your property? Did you create it? Was it given to you personally by some diety? Your ability to own land and not have it taken by some guy with more guns is not naturally occuring. It is provided by the society in which you live. You are complaining that it is provided with some strings attached.

      > Who is going to watch that there's no shitheads forcing buildings on my property to be over 1 m tall?
      You are. The 1m tall rule sounds pretty idiotic to me. I'd assume there is some justification (possibly stupid), but I can't think what. If there really isn't any good reason, you ought to be able to convince enough other people to get it changed. Sensible government is not automatic. It requires effort by sensible people. Take some responsibility.

      > Now, if I could organize a way to vote that shithead out of office, I might be more comfortable with that. But how can I do that?

      Yeah, if only we lived in a democracy, and could organize political parties, and try to get stupid laws changed. That sure would be nice.

      >Because there's 1900 shitheads working for the city.
      I suspect it's the ratio of shitheads voting and running for office that's more significant.

    55. Re:So what if Verizon doesn't have to share fiber? by shepd · · Score: 1

      >I'd assume there is some justification (possibly stupid), but I can't think what. If there really isn't any good reason, you ought to be able to convince enough other people to get it changed. Sensible government is not automatic. It requires effort by sensible people. Take some responsibility.

      Exactly. In fact, it's clear I'm willing to take all the responsibility.

      However, extracting power from the hands of others is always a struggle.

      That's why I advocate never giving it to them in the first place.

      --
      If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
  3. Verizon's Fiber by Klerck · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...so if Verizon runs fiber to your house, you'll be able to get Verizon service or none at all.

    Isn't that how it should be? If Verizon foots the cost of rolling out thouands and thousands of miles of fiber, shouldn't they be the only ones who can use it?

    That's a bit different from phone lines which were subsidised through tax money and therefore should be open to all. If Verizon is the one paying for the fiber, then it should be theirs to use alone if they please.

    1. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Spytap · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Doesn't the problem then become that Verizon can charge whatever they want becaus eno other company can then also lay wiring to said houses? If you have someone right where you want them, would you trust a company whose primary objective is to make profits and become larger to do what's right for their customers or for themselves?

    2. Re:Verizon's Fiber by eaddict · · Score: 1

      Maybe it is time for telco serive or at least the lines to be government regulated-sort of like the roads. Since EVERYONE uses highways as a metaphor, why not let the government/states/local governments create the telco highway landscape? Then the phone companies can complete on service and price vs who gets to tear up your lawn.

      --
      "If you are on fire you can just stop, drop, and roll. If you fall into Lava you are just dead." - my 5yr old daughter
    3. Re:Verizon's Fiber by alen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Isn't the goal of all companies? Defeat your competition? If verizon can't make a profit on the fiber who in their right mind will loan them the money to pay for it?

      If someone wants to lay fiber then they need to figure out a business model and then sell some bonds to pay for it. That is the way capitalism works.

    4. Re:Verizon's Fiber by jat850 · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure where you live, but in certain provinces here in Canada, many corporations were "crown" corporations (i.e. government owned and run) including power and telephone. The trend lately, however, has been to privatize these businesses and move away from a government-run model because the government was no longer interested (or capable of) running the businesses.

      --
      the blood has stopped pumping, and he's left to decay
      the me that you know is now made up of wires
    5. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Cyberdyne · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Doesn't the problem then become that Verizon can charge whatever they want becaus eno other company can then also lay wiring to said houses?

      Why not? With the existing infrastructure - electricity, cable TV, telephone - the government prohibited competition. This, obviously, created a monopoly for each utility; all the regulatory effort of the last decade or two has gone into reversing the damage from that. With fiber, however, who is prohibiting some other company from laying fiber just like Verizon?

      If you have someone right where you want them, would you trust a company whose primary objective is to make profits and become larger to do what's right for their customers or for themselves?

      The answer is not to let the government (or their favored company) get you right where they want you. Don't let Verizon be given a monopoly in the first place!

      If the infrastructure is too expensive for one company to afford, let them group together to build a shared local network - much the same way Internet peering points work: each ISP wanting to hook up has to pay their chunk of the running costs. That way, nobody gets screwed.

    6. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      Indeed. That's why capitalism is a monopolist's heaven and a consumer's hell. Enjoy your shit sandwich.

    7. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Telastyn · · Score: 1

      Because the government has completely screwed the highway system?

      Not the system itself, but they've used it as excessive leveridge (sp) to introduce things that are of questionable benefit. They get to say just who, and what, can drive on the roads. They can even mandate how the roads are driven on because it's a privilidge and not a right. Do you *REALLY* want your government to control who you can communicate with?

      I do agree that the 'last mile' infrastructure should be made/controlled by an unbiased 3rd party, but whom? Should the last mile be the responsibility of the homeowner?

    8. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Sabalon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      With fiber, however, who is prohibiting some other company from laying fiber just like Verizon?

      Your local corrupt city council, who has been greased quite well by Verizon (or whoever) to somehow assure that the needed permits for company #2 never get issued.

    9. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Thavius · · Score: 1

      Right, but there's always the problem of "right of ways". If Verizon wants to throw some fiber through your back yard, they have to have your permission. If they want to dig fiber under a street, they have to have city's permission to do so.

      I think some of the stickyness deals with private stuff going through public areas. I'm not for sure on this, but that could be one reason.

    10. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Cyberdyne · · Score: 1
      Your local corrupt city council, who has been greased quite well by Verizon (or whoever) to somehow assure that the needed permits for company #2 never get issued.

      That's exactly what went wrong last time round; local governments basically said "OK, rape the customers all you like, as long as we get a cut..." Hopefully this time round, people will push hard enough to avoid repeating that mistake!

    11. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      And the private companies have fucked up larger, and more horribly than the goverenment ever could.

    12. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except for all the public land right-of-ways they get. They aren't actually footing "all the cost" .. sure, they'll argue they are, but they'll conveniently forget about property rights.

    13. Re:Verizon's Fiber by stand · · Score: 1

      Another option is to set up a compulsory licensure for the lines. Anyone is allowed to use the fiber that Verizon lays, but they must pay Verizon (for some *limited* time, mind you) for access. That way, Verizon is not allowed to lock out their competitors to establish a monopoly and the public interest is served because anyone is free to develop new and better uses for the lines, but Verizon still gets some compensation for the expense of laying the fiber.

      Verizon isn't likely to agree to this though, nor (sadly) is butt kissing Powell at the FCC. That's why the public (i.e. you and me) must hold their feet to the fire.

      --
      Four fifths of all our troubles in this life would disappear if we would just sit down and keep still. -C. Coolidge
    14. Re:Verizon's Fiber by mpthompson · · Score: 5, Informative

      Not all local governments are corrupt in the manner you describe. On the San Francisco Penninsula there is the San Mateo County Telecom Authority (SAMCAT) that encourages multiple telecom and cable companies to offer service throughout San Mateo County. The major hurdle here is not getting local governments to grant multiple franchises in the same geographic area (this has already been done on multiple occasions), but getting the competing telecom and cable companies granted a franchise license to actually spend the money on infrastructure to offer competing services in the current down economy. In most communities there still is only a single choice because the established provider is the local 800lb gorilla, but at least there is some hope for real competition once the industry starts growing again.

    15. Re:Verizon's Fiber by realdpk · · Score: 1

      As much as I'm against big government, it seems like the highway* and road system works pretty well. If they owned the "fiber highway", they could more easily guarantee competition without forcing companies to invest in other companies futures.

      They could. But they probably wouldn't. Anyways, it'd be nice...

      * Of course, I don't mean the way they're paid for - that is done very poorly, and harmfully.

    16. Re:Verizon's Fiber by oddjob · · Score: 1

      Its even worse than that. The fed also has a habit of using the threat of cutting highway funding to presure states to pass laws that would not be constitutional for the fed to pass itself. The states usually bow to this presure because interstate highways are so important for their economies. I'd be reluctant to give them another set of thumb-screws.

    17. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The answer is not to let the government (or their favored company) get you right where they want you. Don't let Verizon be given a monopoly in the first place!

      If the infrastructure is too expensive for one company to afford, let them group together to build a shared local network - much the same way Internet peering points work: each ISP wanting to hook up has to pay their chunk of the running costs. That way, nobody gets screwed.

      Better yet, why doesn't the government maintain the infrastructure and let anyone run a "source" or "consumer" on that infrastructure, much as the roadway system is?

      Phone systems:
      Government maintains - lines
      Sources (switching/account management) provided by: SBC, AT&T, Sprint, BT, MCI/Worldcom(are they still around?), et al.
      Consumers: Everyone with a PSTN device.

      Power grid:
      Government maintains - lines, distribution stations
      Sources (generators) provided by: AmerenUE, Pacific Power & Light, anyone else with a power plant
      Consumers: Everyone with AC-powered devices.

      Fitting into my format here, the roadway system is:
      Government maintains - roads
      Sources (taxes) provided by: citizens
      Consumers: Everyone with street-legal vehicles

      See how simple that is? Then no one can mess with the infrastructure standard without making a whole new infrastructure system. If it becomes popular enough, the government takes over. And to fund the government's upkeep of the infrastructure, the sources pay taxes(and the consumers pay the sources).

      This has the very welcome side-effect of stifling at least one bitch-session on slashdot.

    18. Re:Verizon's Fiber by danheskett · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How does what you say have any basis in fairness or common sense.

      Company #1 spends BIG MONEY to physically lay tons of wire. You then force that company to give away their hardwork - for sometime for a fee and then eventually for FREE - as soon as its done?

      That is stupid. STUPID. I'd like to find out where you work, force you to give me 50% of what you make for free. That's what you are suggesting.

      Verizon is proposing a big fiber network. Lots of expense. Lots of money. This time around with this telecom network there isn't the government granting them automatic monopolies. If Company Y wants to create a competing network, LET THEM INVEST THEIR OWN MONEY.

      Forcing companies to materially help and support the competition is wrong, immoral, and bad for commerce AND the consumer. It forces higher costs, discourages innovation and risk taking, and stigmatizes the development of new technology. Who wants to create something new and exciting if the government is just going to force you to give it away before you recoup your investment?

    19. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Cyberdyne · · Score: 1
      Another option is to set up a compulsory licensure for the lines. Anyone is allowed to use the fiber that Verizon lays, but they must pay Verizon (for some *limited* time, mind you) for access. That way, Verizon is not allowed to lock out their competitors to establish a monopoly and the public interest is served because anyone is free to develop new and better uses for the lines, but Verizon still gets some compensation for the expense of laying the fiber.

      You get most of that already. The services will be telephone+Internet+TV, right?

      For telephone, Verizon are already required to interconnect with other telcos, at regulated rates: the only monopoly element would be line rental/local calls.

      Internet/data traffic: Not regulated per se, but if Verizon change their peering arrangements it'll be big news. Until then, you're free to access anything you want over it.

      TV: Cable and satellite companies are required to carry all the local channels, as well as carrying "community access" programming.

      So, the only element Verizon really gain a monopoly over is local service - which they already have (with very few exceptions) with the existing setup. The gain is more competition for cable companies (on TV) and better Net access, the loss... potentially, some ISPs which already depend on non-mandated Verizon services? (The DSL ISPs who resell Verizon service are only there as long as they can pay Verizon enough to keep them.)

      Verizon isn't likely to agree to this though, nor (sadly) is butt kissing Powell at the FCC. That's why the public (i.e. you and me) must hold their feet to the fire.

      If you want to see a truly failed regulator, look at the FCC's UK counterpart, Oftel - who spent years defending per-minute charging for local calls, delaying the launch of broadband, and fighting against local loop unbundling. After a few years of intense lobbying by angry Net users, broadband happened, LLU technically happens (to a couple of hundred lines, so far!) and flat-rate dialup. Flat-rate voice calls, too, but only evenings and weekends.

    20. Re:Verizon's Fiber by danheskett · · Score: 1

      This is silly true. Its such a sad teastament. The Feds have used 'voluntary' funding and matching funds to states as a sort of highly addictive crack to control them.

      A perfect example is state drinking laws. The Feds have presurred states again and again to raise the drinking age to 21, the blood-alcholol legal limit to .08, and to enforce a strict speed limit. The 'carrot' has always been highway funding. The Feds know damn well that there is no way a state could simply absorb that cost into their budget without major regressive taxes or drastic cut in services. Therefore the states without fail have to cowtow to the Federal governments unconstitutional desire to regulate State's private matters.

      The executive and the US Congress WILL resort to this type of thing again given the chance. They'd love to be able to exert pressure on a nationwide communication system. Imagine how they'd force states/ISPs/whoever to monitor all traffic (or do it themselves, which is tragic). In an effort to crack down on anti-social behaviour the entire purpose of the Internet would be lost. For example they might institute strict anti-child porn controls. But then a few Senators might decide that local obscenity rules must be obeyed by technological means. And then terrorism will be used. Before long the US Government will be monitoring for industrial espionage to help US businesses.

      Frankly, its not worth it. I'll stick with paying $50/mo for my broadband. And I'll stick with strong encryption and open source software to protect my private data.

    21. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "That is stupid. STUPID. I'd like to find out where you work, force you to give me 50% of what you make for free. That's what you are suggesting."

      You state that as some sort of outrageous claim, but, that's just about what my government does.

    22. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Catbeller · · Score: 1

      Um...

      Do you actually think a private company would control who or what drives on a road in a less obsessive fashion than an elected government?

      How do you vote the company out of office?

      Think of this: a few months ago, a man who bought a peace-now T-shirt in a mall was arrested - ARRESTED - because he refused to take it off.

      Apparently over the last 80 years, several stupidly pro-biz Supreme Court decisions have made businesses lords and gods of their private countries. First amendment rights do not apply in a mall, despite the appearance of the space being public. It is not.

      A road-owning business would have the right to control the bumperstickers, the models of cars, the types of people in the cars, the years of the cars, the ages of the owners of the cars, the amount of money paid by the cars -- in fact, damned near anything they want to control, they would. And experience shows that business owners slant hard-right when it comes to free speech.

      Picture you on a bright afternoon, rolling down Private Interstate 233, with a anti-presidential bumpersticker proudly displayed on your car.

      Now picture yourself in jail.

    23. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >and to enforce a strict speed limit.

      The "strict" speed limit is reasonable. I think it should be much more strictly enforced though. The penalty for speeding in any kind of high traffic area should be to forfeit your vehicle and your driving privileges forever. If you were drunk when you were speeding, you should forfeit your life as well.

    24. Re:Verizon's Fiber by elmegil · · Score: 1
      So don't let the fed do it then, let your local government do it. Here's how I see this working: my village already owns the "right of way" on the parkways and the streets. They pay for fiber to be laid to a post outside my house or a spot in a hole out there (like either cable terminals or gas lines), and that fiber runs to a central location also owned by the village. Anyone who wants to provide fiber services can then pay for telecomm infrastructure to that location, rental for equipment space at that location, and rental for the segments of fiber they actually use. The village itself is forbidden from offering the actual telecomm services themselves, which prevents them from having any say in what traffic I transfer over that link. The telecomm provider then bills me back for whatever the market will bear on a very high speed network link (or maybe not so high, they can always put throttles in place--just because its fiber doesn't mean I have to get ultra-mega-speed without paying a lot more than I do today). The services are open to all providers who can pay for the space etc. That gives REAL competition, because then they won't be competing based on who inherited all the pre-existing infrastructure, or who negotiated the best right of way deals to lay new infrastructure.

      BTW I'm curious about your example of how the government has "completely screwed the highway system" because from where I sit, it works pretty damn well all things considered. Do you really think fiber to the home is a right?

      --
      7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
    25. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Think of this: a few months ago, a man who bought a peace-now T-shirt in a mall was arrested - ARRESTED - because he refused to take it off."

      What is your source for the story? Were there any other factors? Was he arraigned and given a hearing, or was he just arrested, and let go when the police supervisor/DA realized what a fuckup it was?

      I disagree with your claim that the mall has any appearance of a "public space." Any reasonable person will be plainly aware that it is NOT a public space. You do not suddenly give up all your first amendment rights just because you are on private property, but the property owner doesn't give up any rights either.

      The real problem with the tyranny of corporations is that so far, the intrusions are not intolerable to many people. Things will have to get a LOT worse before people generally come to an understanding that there is a problem. I'd go as far as to say things actually do NEED to get worse in order for them to be a driver of change. Otherwise we just stay with the status quo.

    26. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Daniel_Staal · · Score: 1

      Fine. How many times do you want your yard torn up? How much dark fiber do you want laid? You are saying if I want competiton it has to be at least twice, and at least half the fiber laid will be dark...

      --
      'Sensible' is a curse word.
    27. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Telastyn · · Score: 1

      Sorry, not the highway system as much as using it for bargining. See another reply to my post regarding the Federal Government blackmailing State govs with highway funds.

      I do not believe fiber to the home is a right. I believe that it might be in the future; certainly around the turn of the century our lawmakers didn't believe that everyone would own a car either...

      I agree that local governments would be a much better orginization to do the last mile runs. Unfortunately every local government I've seen can't even get a school built by the time the current one is filled to 250% of design... (for example)

      and I appologize for my poor and disjointed argument, I'm currently distracted :]

    28. Re:Verizon's Fiber by stand · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Company #1 spends BIG MONEY to physically lay tons of wire. You then force that company to give away their hardwork - for sometime for a fee and then eventually for FREE - as soon as its done?

      I'm not suggesting they give it away. I'm saying they must be prevented from locking out competition. Competition is good, right?

      Verizon is proposing a big fiber network. Lots of expense. Lots of money. This time around with this telecom network there isn't the government granting them automatic monopolies. If Company Y wants to create a competing network, LET THEM INVEST THEIR OWN MONEY.

      We're talking fiber to the home networks here. Are you proposing that company Y run a second line into my house to compete with Verizon's line? That is stupid.

      Forcing companies to materially help and support the competition is wrong, immoral, and bad for commerce AND the consumer. It forces higher costs, discourages innovation and risk taking, and stigmatizes the development of new technology. Who wants to create something new and exciting if the government is just going to force you to give it away before you recoup your investment?

      I'm curious to know how allowing a single company to dictate the terms of my connection to the Internet is good for me, good for competition or good for commerce. There's no doubt it would be good for Verizon.

      Again, I'm not saying the Verizon shouldn't be compensated for their efforts to connect us with a high speed network, that's why others should be forced to license the lines from Verizon to use them, but neither should they be entitled to recoup that investment in perpetuity. Nor should they be allowed to selectively lock out whoever doesn't play by their rules simply becase at one time they invested in laying some fiber.

      We must realize that Verizon (or any one company) is not going to act in the interest of the public good. If we want the Internet to remain the medium of openess and innovation that it is, we must demand that those interests be balanced with those of the companies that build the infrastructure. Otherwise the Internet just becomes a world wide shopping mall.

      --
      Four fifths of all our troubles in this life would disappear if we would just sit down and keep still. -C. Coolidge
    29. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Catbeller · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'll take this one, begging the original poster's pardon.

      How does what you say have any basis in fairness or common sense

      Whenever I see the phrase "common sense", I mentally reach for a shotgun.

      What you say makes "sense", if you selective the proper facts and ignore all others that contradict you. It's not common sense, or economics: it's economic theology.

      A private company is not an entity in a pure economic thought experiment.

      For one, Verizon is government subsidized. Yes, I said they are welfare recipients. For, every dollar they weepingly spend on infrastructure, they DEDUCT FROM THEIR TAXES. When you or I buy a car to go to work, we don't deduct the finance charges, actual payments, refinancing costs, or debt sale costs that Verizon does. Verizon gets this government handout so that it may... actually, I never did understand why. They are powerful, and they get to do this. Period.

      Secondly, if Verizon screws up, they DEDUCT THEIR LOSSES FROM THEIR INCOME TAXES. The "risk" that they take is government insured, because the taxpayers will be further taxed to make up for the money Verizon will not pay if they screw up.

      Third, Verizon may or may not be granted tax relief from local governments for installing various doodads. Another taxpayer-paid welfare grant.

      Fourth, when you create a network that is essentially granted to you by access and rate giveaways by the Federal government, you can set up an effective monopoly -- not only over physical infrastructure, but over the content that is provided over that network. Powell has many times indicated that political bias is hokey-dokey in a medium, because so many other media exist to balance it. So, an ISP who is also a provider can control the messages going over its network. Not only a physical monopoly, but a political one as well. Somehow this would be a bigger showstopper for Powell if that bias was not hard-right, I think.

      Now, this monopoly does not have to exist. But Powell's economic theology insists that it must, because, like most libertarians, ignores all factors that do not bear on the illusion of a clean sheet economic problem, ie, a company provides a service, competition can try to compete, all is good. His ideology ignores back room dealings (mainly because he is a consummate backroom artist, being a lobbiest for the telecom companies in his off time!), nasty business manipulation, predatory pricing, in short, all the nasty, dirty tricks that were rampant in the old Standard Oil trust days that have come again.

      And, the standard isn't recouping investment. Businesses are there to take over a market, not make back their money. They have no limits.

      Private busineses are there to steal a much as possible. This is balanced by government elected by the people which regulates the rascals.

      What has happened is that Bush's people have appointed the industry lobbyists to be the regulators of the industries they represent. The rights of the people to actual competition for services is being ignored: businesses are treated as feudal lords who should bear no oversight.

    30. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Catbeller · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Try reading Adam Smith sometime. He not only laid out the market rules for business: he laid out warnings for monopoly and abuse, and the need to control business to prevent such.

      Capitalism is a zero sum game. A GAME, not a way of life. We live in a real world, and we need to control gamers so that they do not own everything worth owning, including our futures.

      A privately owned network can not only freeze out competition and hike prices. It can progressively control free expression on its network, clamping down on opposing voices and smothering democracy.

    31. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Why not? With the existing infrastructure - electricity, cable TV, telephone - the government prohibited competition. This, obviously, created a monopoly for each utility; all the regulatory effort of the last decade or two has gone into reversing the damage from that. With fiber, however, who is prohibiting some other company from laying fiber just like Verizon?


      Come up to Canada sometime, if you honestly think anybody can lay fiber to a house up here, I want what your smokin'.

      We have 2 industries that can run signaling to a house (actually to cross any legal street, over or under), thats the cable company and the local telephone company. If you want in on the industry it takes a h*ll of a lot more than just money. At least we have celular competition, just nothing for land lines.

      We are soo fu*ked up here...
    32. Re:Verizon's Fiber by beakburke · · Score: 2, Flamebait

      On the one hand you tout adam smith, on the other you call capitalism a "zero sum game", which is not at all the case. Are you going to make any real cogent points here, or am i just feeding a troll spouting nonsense and blather?

      --
      ----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
    33. Re:Verizon's Fiber by stand · · Score: 2, Interesting
      For telephone, Verizon are already required to interconnect with other telcos, at regulated rates: the only monopoly element would be line rental/local calls.
      Internet/data traffic: Not regulated per se, but if Verizon change their peering arrangements it'll be big news. Until then, you're free to access anything you want over it.

      This is true, but (correct me if I'm wrong here) aren't the telcos demanding an end to this arrangement as a condition for the expense of improving the infrastructure? That's the "big news" you're talking about and it's what I'm afraid the FCC will give them.

      TV: Cable and satellite companies are required to carry all the local channels, as well as carrying "community access" programming.

      That's a pretty wimpy requirement and one that will mean a whole lot less if the FCC does its expected deregulation on Monday. Right now, we get effectively no choice of channels, which is mostly merely inconvenient, but has the potential to be much worse. How likely is it that a cable company, would continue to carry a channel that ran documentaries critical of their sponsors for instance? That's wielding too much power in my book.

      If you want to see a truly failed regulator, look at the FCC's UK counterpart, Oftel...

      Ugh, yes! No argument here. And the television tax? Who came up with that one? I guess we should count our blessings, eh? ;-)

      --
      Four fifths of all our troubles in this life would disappear if we would just sit down and keep still. -C. Coolidge
    34. Re:Verizon's Fiber by beakburke · · Score: 1

      "For one, Verizon is government subsidized. Yes, I said they are welfare recipients. For, every dollar they weepingly spend on infrastructure, they DEDUCT FROM THEIR TAXES." Umm, thats the way it works for all businesses, if you were self employed, you could deduct those things. Taxing companies on gross revenue rather than profit would actually favor monopolies and would result in most of the cost being passed on to the customer. In reality, all companies are owned by people, so why should companies pay income taxes in the first place? Why not just tax the income when the investor recieves it? That way all income is treated the same. "Secondly, if Verizon screws up, they DEDUCT THEIR LOSSES FROM THEIR INCOME TAXES. The "risk" that they take is government insured, because the taxpayers will be further taxed to make up for the money Verizon will not pay if they screw up." The RISK is not insured, if the investment fails, then never get all the money back. It's lost, gone. This point makes absolutely no sense what so ever. I suppose i could cover points three and four too, but I think I value my time more than that.

      --
      ----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
    35. Re:Verizon's Fiber by gotih · · Score: 2, Interesting

      do you want fiber access from your house or do you want verizon to make lots of money?

      what incentive do they have to provide you with servce?

      the incentive is profit but that means that they could provide access only to the most well off and make a profit. if working so you can pay for overpriced services is your thing this is good. it's bad for me.

      what is needed is a third party to lay the lines then lease the lines to many providers at cost. a government agency (or something wihtout profit motive) is best suited for this. as long as profit is the motivator we will have spotty, shitty service or service only for those willing to pay a lot.

      the fucked up thing that could happen is that verizon runs the lines and, with a flurry of advertising (think qwest "you will be watching movies on demand soon!"), the stock price rises. then they quietly claim it's too expensive to complete, write off the project and leave the fiber dark.

      dunno, we'll see. but i predict that community based wireless networks are far more likely to provide service (to me) than this.

      --

      fear is the mind killer
    36. Re:Verizon's Fiber by DonGar · · Score: 1
      With fiber, however, who is prohibiting some other company from laying fiber just like Verizon?

      Have you given blanket permission to any company that wants to run cable through your land to do so? I've never given that permission to ANY company, but they do it anyway.

      The local government used Imminent Domain to seize permssion for the cables to be run. Since the government is taking my land and giving it to a company, I feel it's perfectly reasonable for the government to tell that company what they can and can't do with it. Especially if what they are telling them is in my benifit.

      In the early days of electricity and phone, the companies running the lines would have to come to an agreement with every person whose yard they used. One hold out could keep a neighborhood in the dark. I think the compromise made is reasonable, but I don't think it should be forgotten.

      --
      plus-good, double-plus-good
    37. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Cyberdyne · · Score: 1
      This is true, but (correct me if I'm wrong here) aren't the telcos demanding an end to this arrangement as a condition for the expense of improving the infrastructure?

      Unlikely: apart from anything else, they can't "demand" it from the FCC - there's no FCC involvement!

      That's the "big news" you're talking about and it's what I'm afraid the FCC will give them.

      The FCC can't, because they're already free from FCC control in that respect - and always have been.

      That's a pretty wimpy requirement and one that will mean a whole lot less if the FCC does its expected deregulation on Monday. Right now, we get effectively no choice of channels, which is mostly merely inconvenient, but has the potential to be much worse. How likely is it that a cable company, would continue to carry a channel that ran documentaries critical of their sponsors for instance?

      If it's a "local" channel (i.e. one you receive via antenna) they can't do anything else. Nor would they have much reason to: their customers can all access such a channel with just an ordinary antenna anyway!

      Ugh, yes! No argument here. And the television tax? Who came up with that one? I guess we should count our blessings, eh? ;-)

      Dead right; the UK government is currently trying to remove the double jeopardy rule, and reduce the right to jury trials (in "complex" cases, which appears to be government-speak for "we don't trust the jury to reach the right verdict"). OTOH, there are three big court cases challenging the legality of the TV tax being heard in September, so at least there's light at the end of the tunnel...

    38. Re:Verizon's Fiber by miu · · Score: 1
      Capitalism is a zero sum game. A GAME, not a way of life. We live in a real world, and we need to control gamers so that they do not own everything worth owning, including our futures.

      Not exactly. An individual competition between two companies for a specific market might be a zero-sum game, but capitalism and economics in general are nonzero-sum games.

      Also, attempts by companies to cooperate based on game theory is illegal, it is called price fixing. :)

      --

      [Set Cain on fire and steal his lute.]
    39. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Malcontent · · Score: 1

      "Umm, thats the way it works for all businesses,"

      that does not make it right but then again you think corporations should not be taxed at all.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

    40. Re:Verizon's Fiber by beakburke · · Score: 1

      But they do pay taxes, its just that companies pay on profits, not income. This is done for a logical reason, as "companies" arent really paying the taxes in the first place. It's the customers or shareholders that ultimately pay them, since all companies are owned by people. Companies, afterall are simply a legal construct that allow people to collectively invest productive resources. Thus taxing a company is really just a feel-good but ultimately wasteful exercise. Simply tax the income at the full rate when the investors cash in.

      --
      ----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
    41. Re:Verizon's Fiber by An+Onerous+Coward · · Score: 1

      1) Building two totally separate networks to provide the same service to the same area is just a--what was the word you used?--stupid duplication of effort. Every time a new player wants to enter the market, they have to build yet another entirely different network, compounding stupidity upon stupidity and creating an unnecessarily high barrier to entry.

      It should also be pointed out that building a second network incurs the same costs as the first, but the new player then has to overcome the additional burden of getting customers to use their service. If the new service is only marginally superior to the old one, there's no chance of turning a profit. So we end up with geographical monopolies, which can only work if subjected to an even heavier regimen of regulation than we face now.

      2) Your analogy, wherein you come to somebody's office and force them to give you half their income for no other reason than that you want it, is... oh, there's that word again. So long as the company that laid the wire is allowed to charge access fees high enough to recoup their investment, then the investment is worth making.

      If you want to argue the specifics of what access fees are reasonable, or how long a company's privileged status should last, that's not a problem. But to hand over a perpetual monopoly over an area is far too rich a reward.

      3) Screw innovation in the telecom sector. What about innovation in the services being provided by those who use the network to deliver their services? Who does it serve when every time someone comes up with a new application, they have to beg and grovel to get permission to use the pipes? We're already seeing providers banning services like NAT and VPN, just so they can charge extra for such services.

      Giving the fiber owners absolute control over what goes through their pipes does exactly what you describe: "It forces higher costs, discourages innovation and risk taking, and stigmatizes the development of new technology."

      --

      You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!

    42. Re:Verizon's Fiber by danheskett · · Score: 1

      Yes, I know, the government does that, and its outrageous in general. Its especially bad when he wants one company to do it to another company, "to be fair".

    43. Re:Verizon's Fiber by danheskett · · Score: 1

      Every time a new player wants to enter the market, they have to build yet another entirely different network, compounding stupidity upon stupidity and creating an unnecessarily high barrier to entry.
      Nope. They could license it under terms that they work out with Verizon. But that is not the same as compulsory licensing.

      Second, you are talking about a monopoly. There will be no monopoly. Verizon will not be the only one who can lay fiber. That's the point. Anyone can (who has the money). And that's why we shouldn't force whoever expends the cash to lay the fiber to license it.

    44. Re:Verizon's Fiber by thynk · · Score: 1

      Everyone has made some really good points for both sides of this. But honestly, If Verizon wants to run fiber to my home, charge me out the ass for service - I'd be all for it. **ANYTHING** to get QWEST out my home. Qwest is the only company I've ever had when calling to have a mistake corrected (or recorrected) on my bill has become the norm, not the exception. Qwest is also the only company that let a rep call me a liar, to my face and did nothing about it. I use Verizon for my cell phone. I get great service and the one problem I had on my bill, was corrected quickly and politely.

      I'd rather the fiber be laid by the city of Ft. Collins, and have it run like a utility, with them opening access to other groups, but if they won't - and Verizon will - good for them. There are pros and cons to letting them keep exclusive control - but in my eyes, and with my experience - it looks like we're talking about the lesser of two evils.

      --

      Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
    45. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      For telephone, Verizon are already required to interconnect with other telcos, at regulated rates: the only monopoly element would be line rental/local calls.

      There is still the question of how much. There was a recent article in the LA Times about this, where AT&T and others were arguing the PUC should lower the leasing fees SBC charges, and SBC was arguing to raise them. SBC suggested that it cost them about $22 per month per customer to provide equipment and service and accounting for depreciation over 10-15 years, and AT&T, et al, claimed about $13 per month with depreciation over 30 years. I found SBC's claim amusing, since their own prices start at about $20 per month for a residential line. I pay AT&T $15 a month now, though, for what SBC would like to charge me $22 or more a month.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    46. Re:Verizon's Fiber by An+Onerous+Coward · · Score: 1

      The fact that the owner of a line can grossly overcharge service providers as well as end users isn't relevant. So long as Verizon has the choice not to license, there is no way to break their geographical monopoly.

      How can you say "there will be no monopoly?" If company A has already laid fiber through an area, there is a high likelihood that it is uneconomical for company B to lay fiber in the same area, because company A has already wired up the most valuable customers. Even if company B offers superior service at a lower price, company A can merely drop prices long enough to keep the competition from gaining new customers.

      In short, I'm asserting that it's economic suicide for an upstart company to wire up an already wired area.

      Now, company B could go and look for a virgin area to wire up. But if the only way to get access to the Internet is to hook into company A's pipes, then both company B and the customers in the new area are screwed. After all, why should company A grant access to company B when it would surely be more profitable for them to develop the area themselves? Why should they help out the competition?

      You might argue that company B can pay whatever is necessary to make it worth company A's effort. But think how high that price would be? How much would company B have to pay, before it was just as good for company A as owning the wire themselves? Obviously, too much.

      Now, if a couple of major players each had thousands of miles of fiber laid, it would obviously serve both to grant each other access at reasonable rates. It's a form of competition, but if a small company with only a few miles of fiber tries to enter the market, they have no power to negotiate a reasonable price for access. What can they do? Threaten to deny access to their lines? The smaller company would go out of business, and the larger company would buy up the fiber for pennies on the dollar.

      Without compulsory licensing, both small service providers and small infrastructure companies are locked out of the marketplace. How exactly does that situation foster competition?

      --

      You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!

    47. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      capitalism is not a zero sum game.

      If *you* read adam smith, or took an economics course, or understood what zero-sum is, you might know that.

      You complain about control (based on free-will decisions of consumers) while demanding more of it (based on what *you* think is best).

      You must be a democrat or a communist. I suggest you move to China, or Cuba. No privately owned network will be freezing you out there!

    48. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In fact corporations do not pay taxes, no matter how much they are taxed. This is because the cost of the taxes are passed to the consumer of their products or services. The consumer pays the cost, always. So you pay the taxes of the company whose products or services you consume.

    49. Re:Verizon's Fiber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Governments are treated as feudal lords who should bear no oversight.

    50. Re:Verizon's Fiber by danheskett · · Score: 1

      In short, I'm asserting that it's economic suicide for an upstart company to wire up an already wired area.
      Thats a blanket statement that has no basis in fact. It will come down to economics of a particular situation. The costs for wiring are largely linear. A small company could literally start small, working a single neighborhood of a larger city. A "neighborhood hopping" campaign could build up a serious alternative to the larger corporation with huge resource.

      Without compulsory licensing, both small service providers and small infrastructure companies are locked out of the marketplace. How exactly does that situation foster competition?
      No. That's false. A small infrastructure company can build a small network. The costs are high, but not unapprochable. There is no reason a regional company couldn't lay, for example, wiring to 1,000 houses to start.

      The correct answer to this problem however is for a government delivery system. The problem is creating an atmosphere within the government that would make this possible and still non-suspectible to the typical governmental bull.

      Forcing licensing is stupid, and wrong on principle. It's theft, and punishes risk-taking. Building infrastructure is risky, even for big corporations. Building anything nationwide is expensive. But the good thing is that you dont need a nationwide network to get started. There are a big pile of local ISPs. In my home state the #2 ISP is a local company. Things can continue down this road.

  4. Less than an hour to make those calls... by tbase · · Score: 5, Informative

    The FCC is set to vote on their secret-none-more-secret changes to the media ownership regulations on Monday. If you like the direction commercial radio has taken in the last few years, don't worry about it. If not, moveon.org has some good resources for who to call.

    --

    666-607: 6th floor apartment of the beast
    1. Re:Less than an hour to make those calls... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heh. Maybe it's time moveon.org followed their own advice.

    2. Re:Less than an hour to make those calls... by Automatic+Bazooty · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Good bye independant American media, hello George Bush for another four years.

      --
      "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
    3. Re:Less than an hour to make those calls... by tbase · · Score: 1

      Sorry, maybe that was a bad choice of link because of its slant - they just have a lot of good resources for trying to get the vote postponed. Yes, a lot of anti-Bush folks are fighting extra hard against this vote because having fewer media companies will make it even easier for them to be controlled (or at least influenced) by the admin, but there are so many other reasons that everyone should oppose this - like moveon.org's article about the ammonia spill in Minot, North Dakota - the consolodation of the radio station ownership (6 out of 7 stations) meant that there wasn't anyone to call at the stations to get the word out when the emergency alert system failed. But hey, when they cut the local news, at least there'll be more time for reality TV shows.

      --

      666-607: 6th floor apartment of the beast
    4. Re:Less than an hour to make those calls... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I really don't care if the station I listen to is broadcast from some borg studio 1000 miles away, as long as they play the tunes I want to hear. If they don't, I can just flip on the yee olde CD player...

    5. Re:Less than an hour to make those calls... by nanojath · · Score: 4, Insightful
      That line of condescending BS from Powell towards the end of the article regarding the fact that he doesn't really see public comment having much anything to do with public policy really burned my bacon, to the extent I felt compelled to address it directly in my comments to the FCC (just submitted).


      "Let me also add a comment in direct response to the comments of Mr. Powell to the effect that "You don't govern just by polls and surveys." Public comment is neither a poll nor a survey, it is a vital element of democracy, required by law. And it is apparently critical as the FCC has clearly lost the understanding that their mission is to serve the American public. If the representatives of government choose to treat the voice of its citizens as unimportant, the its citizens will replace these representatives."

      --

      It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries

    6. Re:Less than an hour to make those calls... by nanojath · · Score: 1

      There's more to this than whether you like the playlist on your local clone station, and if you don't get that then you probably deserve exactly the government you've got. Pity I have to get dragged down with you, though.

      --

      It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries

    7. Re:Less than an hour to make those calls... by zogger · · Score: 1

      NO one there runs a low watt station? I won't call them "pirates" that's a government demonization term. You can whip out something for well under 1,000 clams.

    8. Re:Less than an hour to make those calls... by superyooser · · Score: 1

      You can hear the moveon.org TV ad here (Windows Media), with some commentary and other media sound bites.

    9. Re:Less than an hour to make those calls... by hondo77 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If the representatives of government choose to treat the voice of its citizens as unimportant, the its citizens will replace these representatives.

      Unfortunately, Chairman Powell is not a representative of the public. He is an appointed, nepotistic bureaucrat out of our reach come election day.

      --
      I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
    10. Re:Less than an hour to make those calls... by Automatic+Bazooty · · Score: 0

      "That Amendment rests on the assumption that the widest possible dissemination of information from diverse and antagonistic sources is essential to the welfare of the public, that a free press is a condition of a free society. Surely a command that the government itself shall not impede the free flow of ideas does not afford nongovernmental combinations a refuge if they impose restraints upon that constitutionally guaranteed freedom. Freedom to publish means freedom for all, and not for some. Freedom to publish is guaranteed by the Constitution, but freedom to combine to keep others from publishing is not. Freedom of the press from governmental interference under the First Amendment does not sanction repression of that freedom by private interests." Associated Press v. United States No. 57 Argued December 5, 6, 1944 Decided June 18, 1945

      --
      "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
    11. Re:Less than an hour to make those calls... by nanojath · · Score: 1

      I know, but we still control the system that puts him in place. Of course, looking to past experience it's pure bluster anyway, people come to accept what their new ant overlords hand them and issues like this seem not to be significant on election day. But whattya gonna do?

      --

      It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries

  5. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Funny

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  6. Ted Turner in Washington Post by jdunlevy · · Score: 5, Interesting
    The Washington Post also has an opinion piece by Ted Turner on the approaching FCC decision on media owner ship (decision on Monday). Among other things, he writes:
    I am a major shareholder in the largest of those five corporations, yet -- speaking only for myself, and not for AOL Time Warner -- I oppose these rules. They will stifle debate, inhibit new ideas and shut out smaller businesses trying to compete. If these rules had been in place in 1970, it would have been virtually impossible for me to start Turner Broadcasting or, 10 years later, to launch CNN.
    1. Re:Ted Turner in Washington Post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True, but to arch conservatives, that would have been a *good* thing.

    2. Re:Ted Turner in Washington Post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      To arch conservatives? CNN's the network that kept Pat Buchanan employed for so many years!

    3. Re:Ted Turner in Washington Post by Anti-HanzoSan · · Score: 1

      If these rules had been in place in 1970, it would have been virtually impossible for me to start Turner Broadcasting or, 10 years later, to launch CNN.

      That's about the best reason I've heard for changing the media ownership rules yet!

    4. Re:Ted Turner in Washington Post by Zirnike · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I like this. The dude knows how to separate his professional responsibilities from his personal ones. A lot... and I mean A LOT... of politicians could take a hint from him. I can't say that I support his views on a lot of things, but I think I can respect this comment, at least.

      --
      I'm not shy, I'm stalking my prey
    5. Re:Ted Turner in Washington Post by bigjocker · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I oppose these rules. They will stifle debate, inhibit new ideas and shut out smaller businesses trying to compete.

      I'm quite impressed with this statement, coming from somebody who would greatly beneficiate from such rules being passed.

      We surely need this kind of thinking to be expressed a lot more in the IT business.

      Imagine what would be of the software world if Bill Gates had made that statement when Microsoft first had the chance to stablish a monopoly:

      "I remember where I came from, and if these practices would have been enforced by IBM, Xerox et al by the time I was nobody, I would still be nobody"

      When you think of it, even $CO is what it is today because laws like these ones did not exist.

      --
      Life isn't like a box of chocolates. It's more like a jar of jalapenos. What you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
    6. Re:Ted Turner in Washington Post by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      coming from somebody who would greatly beneficiate from such rules being passed.

      It is safe to say that he would also benefit from such rules being passed. That is, in addition to the beneficiaticizing he would already be doing.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    7. Re:Ted Turner in Washington Post by themanwhoknowsmostth · · Score: 1, Offtopic
      Even if you do learn to speak correct English, whom are you going to speak it to?

      Um, that should be to whom are you going to speak it.

      --
      --Sig? Uh, it's in my other pants.
    8. Re:Ted Turner in Washington Post by Billly+Gates · · Score: 0, Flamebait
      That guy is just as much of a crook at Verizon. Hell is a f*cking asshole.

      I use to live in New York and I signed up with Highspeed internet access from RCN. Well after 6 months nothing happened. I then called the customer service line they told me Time-Warner is sueing them to prevent me from using any other service but them.

      Turns out local laws dictate that only one cable can enter a home. Time-warner claimed the cable is their IP and removing is theft!

      Without the removal I had not choice but to only use time-warner.

      They held it up for 2 fucking years while I had no broadband but I had fiber under my feet! FYI at this time TIME-WARNER had no high speed at all! This meant its modem only just so the poor old Ted Turney can buy another luxury yatch!

      Finally time-warner offered highspeed internet and rcn cancelled because of the cost of the lawsuit. I gave time-warner the finger and used a slow modem based connection until I moved.

      I have ethics and refuse to give those bastards a single cent!

    9. Re:Ted Turner in Washington Post by hondo77 · · Score: 1

      Sounds beneficiariffic to me!

      --
      I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
    10. Re:Ted Turner in Washington Post by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      Bill Gates has made statements like that about software patents. MS has never, afaik, used software patents in an offensive manner. Sure, they've done some FUD spewing, but their patent-related legal action has always been defensive.

      He might not say things like that about his monopoly practices because he thinks he's still vulnerable. I think he's vulnerable too.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    11. Re:Ted Turner in Washington Post by Malcontent · · Score: 2, Funny

      Oh yes and it was all Ted Turner's fault. He called the local office to make sure they got your screwed up because he did not like you very much. This is because he is very interested in you as a person. He has followed you from your birth to today and has daily updates on what you do, who you talk to, where you go and of course what channels you watch on TV.

      Some of his co-workers claim that his obession with you and your life is the reason aol-warner stock has taken a beating and there is probably some truth to that.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

  7. Deregulation from a consumer perspective.... by BWJones · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Well, looking at the cable industry I can only say that deregulation has simply resulted in higher cable bills. Prior to deregulation I paid $9.95 U.S./month for cable, now I am looking at $51.00/month and the only new channels available to me now are things like shopping channels, multiple MTV channels and other crap I have no interest in. In fact, what they have done is packaged channels I did watch into more expensive premium packages meaning I can no longer get Speedvision or others I am interested in without paying even more.

    The technology exists for us to be able to purchase channels ala-carte yet we still have to pick "packages" and only have access via the cable companies or the dish companies. Perhaps Apple could help things out the way they have the music industry?

    --
    Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
    1. Re:Deregulation from a consumer perspective.... by zztzed · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's not the cable companies preventing you from ordering these channels a la carte, it's the channel owners. The packages are sold to cable companies as packages, and they're required to be sold to consumers as a package.

    2. Re:Deregulation from a consumer perspective.... by BWJones · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's not the cable companies preventing you from ordering these channels a la carte, it's the channel owners. The packages are sold to cable companies as packages, and they're required to be sold to consumers as a package.

      To what end? To me this is the same logic the RIAA and the record companies were using to prevent folks from getting the songs they wanted ala-carte. These guys don't have to worry about piracy in the same way and if I want the history channel, a couple of discovery channels, local and national news with some sports channels for equestrian stuff and motorsport, I should be able to order and pay for just those channels. No shopping channels, no pop culture channels, etc...etc...etc...

      --
      Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
    3. Re:Deregulation from a consumer perspective.... by Mysticalfruit · · Score: 1

      The reason they don't go for the ala-carte system is that it wouldn't give them any guarentees.

      When some channel approaches a cable company they say "how many households am I going to be seen in?"

      What the cable company doesn't want to say is "Well, it depends on how many people put you in their package".

      What they say is, we'll you'll be in 67% of our customers homes.

      Personally, I agree. I don't have cable (or watch any TV) because it's so shitty. Yeah, I miss SG-1 and Enterprise, but it's the small price I have to play to not get exposed to Joe Millionare and American Idol...

      --
      Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
    4. Re:Deregulation from a consumer perspective.... by Electrawn · · Score: 2, Informative

      Dish Network allows you to purchase individual channels for $5 each. You can get their Top 50 package w/ locals for $30 (One receiver) and then add Soap Channel (In the top 150) for $5.

      Easy enough.

    5. Re:Deregulation from a consumer perspective.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      it's the small price I have to play to not get exposed to Joe Millionare and American Idol...

      those are network programs, you fucktard. rabbit ear accessible.

    6. Re:Deregulation from a consumer perspective.... by Mysticalfruit · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Yup, your right.

      Tragically, your dick is still too small to post under anything other than AC.

      Oh well you pussy little fucking fucktard.

      Let me swap out "Joe Millionare" and "American Idol" with "Trading Spaces" and "Iron Chef"

      Happy now you fucking zipper headed dipshit.

      I'd call you dumb as paint, but I'd be insulting the paint...

      --
      Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
    7. Re:Deregulation from a consumer perspective.... by realdpk · · Score: 1

      The end is that say.. Disney gets to charge the cable companies more by offering 15 channels instead of 10. The cable companies know that people want ESPN, so they bend over, take it for a few seconds, and then it on to the end-consumer (pun?).

      Channels a la carte would be marvelous. I watch maybe 5 channels, through my TiVo. I'd sure save a lot.

    8. Re:Deregulation from a consumer perspective.... by realdpk · · Score: 1

      mmm. SG-1.

      You can get the first two seasons of it in the US on DVD - 3rd in June, or the first 5 seasons in the UK (region 2, bleh). You probably knew that though. :)

    9. Re:Deregulation from a consumer perspective.... by djnichol · · Score: 1

      Cable isn't even good enough to put me to sleep!

    10. Re:Deregulation from a consumer perspective.... by elefantstn · · Score: 1

      And I walked into a McDonald's yesterday, and they wouldn't just sell me the pickles and tomatoes separately. They made me buy whole hamburgers to get them! What a gip! Time to call the BBB...

      --
      If it ain't broke, you need more software.
    11. Re:Deregulation from a consumer perspective.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're using cable I'd suggest switching to satellite. With my dish network receiver you can create custom channel lists that only consist of the channels you want. I'm sure directtv has an identical feature. You still pay for a "package" but you at least you aren't constantly reminded of it.

    12. Re:Deregulation from a consumer perspective.... by benjamindees · · Score: 1
      These guys don't have to worry about piracy in the same way

      Maybe they should have to. Who want's to put The History Channel on Gnutella?

      --
      "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
    13. Re:Deregulation from a consumer perspective.... by angle_slam · · Score: 1

      Very stupid analogy. You go to a restaurant to buy prepared meals. You go to a grocery store to buy ingredients. If you say that cable companies are, in essence, restaurants giving us pre-determined packages (because everyone who buy ESPN must want Oxygen, right?), then what is the equivalent to the grocery store? (I.e., where would I go to buy just the ESPN and Fox Sports channels)?

    14. Re:Deregulation from a consumer perspective.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I feel sorry for you that McDonald's is the only food supplier in your town. You will never know what an uncooked apple tastes like.

      Will you feel sorry for me that there's only one cable company in my town (and none offer a la carte channels)?

    15. Re:Deregulation from a consumer perspective.... by Mysticalfruit · · Score: 1

      Actually I didn't, thanks!

      I was over a buddies house and we turned on SG-1 and it turned out they were showing some of the original episodes, so I managed to catch the first 4 episodes in succession.

      Very cool stuff.

      --
      Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
    16. Re:Deregulation from a consumer perspective.... by realdpk · · Score: 1

      Very nice. If you're in the US, the new season starts next Friday (13th)

  8. Wrong way to do it. by bobm17ch · · Score: 1



    They should take a leaf out of the way the electricity industry was deregulated in the UK.

    One company may own a certain amount of cable (distribution), but any other company can compete to sell power over this distribution network to any customer.

    It's a crazy system, but somehow (overpricing gripes aside) it all works very well.

    --
    \\ Mitch
    1. Re:Wrong way to do it. by Rorgg · · Score: 1

      There is a similar system here in the US on phones. The baby bells own the lines but then lease them at wholesale (regulated rate) to other telcos to provide local phone service. Unfortunately, SBC just got our legislature here in Illinois to let them double our rate, because... it's... err... good for campaign contributions I guess.

    2. Re:Wrong way to do it. by Cyberdyne · · Score: 4, Interesting
      There is a similar system here in the US on phones. The baby bells own the lines but then lease them at wholesale (regulated rate) to other telcos to provide local phone service.

      And on electricity, in a lot of areas! As well as price competition, it gives you some interesting options - like Green Mountain, who offer 'clean' power (depending on the area, usually generated entirely from wind, sometimes with some hydro or similar) for a slightly higher price.

      Unfortunately, SBC just got our legislature here in Illinois to let them double our rate, because... it's... err... good for campaign contributions I guess.

      I think their reasoning was something about DSL - if they got the rate hike, they could offer DSL to more people?

    3. Re:Wrong way to do it. by Verteiron · · Score: 1

      We need more dramatic changes than that.

      There's nothing else for it. We need Lord Vetinari. Someone call up Terry Pratchett and tell him to take over the world. Please. Quickly.

      --
      End of lesson. You may press the button.
  9. FCC Chairman Michael Powell Interview by Flabby+Boohoo · · Score: 5, Informative

    NPR ran an interview with FCC Chairman Michael Powell this morning, it is available here.

  10. I must have missed it... by Goldberg's+Pants · · Score: 4, Funny

    When was the FCC sold to the telco's and the media?

    1. Re:I must have missed it... by praedor · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      When Republicans took over the government. They can't get enough of Big Business and monopoly (which to them is NOT a bad word).


      They're for it because the Murdoch's and others that want deregulation are conservative wankers who will only permit conservative news broadcasts and opinion pieces on their networks, newspapers, and radio stations. The desire (by the FCC, Republicans, Media Moguls) is to force a single party situation down the nation's throat at any cost.

      --
      In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
    2. Re:I must have missed it... by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Q. When was the FCC sold to the telco's and the media?

      A. Next Tuesday.

    3. Re:I must have missed it... by praedor · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Heh, you can always tell a touchy, angry, arch-conservative - they call anything that even remotely attacks conservative politics, Republicans, or remotely supports fairness, free enquiry, critical thinking, the good of the many over the few, as "flamebait".


      No doubt this message will see the wrath of yet another conservative Republican one-party-state dreamer and get labeled "flamebait" when it is, in fact, a factual statement.

      --
      In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
    4. Re:I must have missed it... by praedor · · Score: 1

      See? I rest my case.

      --
      In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
    5. Re:I must have missed it... by zogger · · Score: 1

      those labels and artifical schisms you put yourself into are really old, doncha think? If you really look at it, follow the cash around? Example,Murdoch is bosom buddies with the commie chinese, he can't wait to bend over for them. Is that right wing, or left wing? Reality is, the big media networks, and the print media, are "establishment" mostly, fascists,globalists, they laugh at that left / right deal that keeps people tied to those artifical voting blocs thinking there's any major differences. These high level dudes all own stock and sit on each other's boards, share each others banks, go to the same big bucks casinos and resort places, play golf together, bang each other's spouses, and etc. That conservative/liberal jazz is political psychodrama more than reality anymore. I mean, geez loweez, I was a major anti war and anti draft slavery protester way back when, when the "liberal democrats" controlled both houses and the presidency. There was just as much corporate fascism under them as there is now with the situation reversed. It's a scam, man, look higher, you'll see it. "Vote for me! I'll only knee ya in the nads! And it's all those other guys fault you are in pain! Vote for me, I'll only bash ya in the head! And it's all those other guys fault that you are in pain!" I mean, how long does this have to happen, and in how many ways, before it becomes politically acceptable to "notice" it? At least that's how I see it. Both "wings" at the higher organized levels want to pick my pocket, and tell me what to do, on just about everything, so do the teensy little details that are mostly just campaign re-electioneering rhetoric garbage that means nothing really matter in the big picture? Maybe it does, but I sure haven't seen any major profound differences. What I HAVE seen is a slow rise to more totalitarianism, with both "wings" going along with it, they just play to their respective audiences, who they play for saps and suckers. they are GOOD at it, too, because year after year, they suceed at it. And it's gotten worse. Slow, steady, once in awhile they will throw a bone to one side or the other, which gets them all hotted up again,and keeps the divisions all fresh, but all in all, nope, slow steady march to "e-vile" as "law".

      The romans designed it, it worked for them, "divide and conquer", and keep them amused with "bread and circuses". It's the same ole crap, 2,000 years later, with a new layer of "ooh, look, shiny!" all over it..

      YMMV

    6. Re:I must have missed it... by Cyno · · Score: 1

      Holy shit!

      Divide and conquer takes on a whole new meaning for me. :)

    7. Re:I must have missed it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Let me tell you a little something about American politics: Both parties are equally corrupt. The only difference is how obvious they are about it.

      Democrats smile and stab you in the back; Republicans send in an armored division. You're dead either way.

    8. Re:I must have missed it... by hondo77 · · Score: 1
      --
      I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
    9. Re:I must have missed it... by smasherbob · · Score: 1

      Who could ever guess that posting a totally off-topic, inflamatory message would get modded down on slashdot, of all places?

    10. Re:I must have missed it... by JDWTopGuy · · Score: 1

      I hate to break the news to ya, but yer fulla Shiite.

      The reason Rush Limbaugh and all his wannabe's are taking over is because that's what the majority wants to hear. Even liberals are listening, which they shouldn't be if they want him to go away. For cryin' out loud, the liberal media is publishing surveys declaring the popularity of President Bush.

      If you don't want to hear it, turn it off, and start your own damn station, and don't give me BS about not being able to. Just set up a website with some streaming audio. Plug it in your slashdot sig. Watch your freaks list grow like a frikin' chia pet! (I already added myself. And you might want to realize that you have way more freaks than fans already.)

      If you're too lazy to start your own liberal outlet, listen to NPR. Listen to your AM talk station(s) long enough and you'll find some liberals. Granted, they're probably in a crappy time slot because not many people want to hear them whine. There's plenty of liberal crap flowing through the air, so find it if you want it so bad.

      --
      Ron Paul 2012
  11. Register hypocrisy? by Cyberdyne · · Score: 5, Informative
    It will difficult to exercise democracy when the ubiquitous national oracle propagates only those biases that four or five multinational conglomerates wish to see propagated, and which are backed up by co-owned newspapers and radio stations.

    Compared to the UK situation, where 2 of the 5 analogue broadcast channels are part of the tax-funded BBC? (Along with 5 or more national radio stations, a couple of magazines, a serious web presence, and a newspaper with a very similar agenda).

    I really don't think having "only" four or five different TV companies available (to non-cable/satellite subscribers) is a problem - especially when so many people have cable or satellite, giving them literally hundreds of different channels to choose from. Not to mention a huge number of newspapers and magazines, and of course the Internet!

    Keep this in mind: For years, the UK had just three different TV companies - the largest one state-owned, and the smallest subsidised. No cable (that came in the 80s), no satellite (same). With or without these changes, US viewers without cable/satellite will have more choice than UK viewers. I'm not holding the UK up as some sort of media Utopia, but it's hardly the disaster area these guys seem to predict!

    1. Re:Register hypocrisy? by Zirnike · · Score: 1

      It seems to me, and I may be wrong living on the other side of the pond, that the BBC is more willing to go against their purse-string-holders than US media corps do. Maybe the government is more willing to allow free speech regarding their motives than a profit-mongering board of directors? They are more in the public eye...

      --
      I'm not shy, I'm stalking my prey
    2. Re:Register hypocrisy? by asscroft · · Score: 1

      ok, but aren't you sick of watching News Channel A break a "news story" about upcoming movie B, which happens to be produced by thier common parent owner. Half of what I watch is advertising for other crap. So and so has a new book, published by our affiliate. So and So has a new album, produced by our sister company. Blah blah. There is no such thing as news for journalism's sake anylonger in america. It's either opinion, or it's advertising. interrupted by more advertising. And who's paying for the opinion? Same people. Just for fun, next time you're watching the news and their breaking a story on the next great gadget, watch who's advertising during the next break. It's usually the same company.

      --
      because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
    3. Re:Register hypocrisy? by Malc · · Score: 5, Informative

      Having lived in both countries, I would say the UK system is better. TV is of higher quality. It's also vastly cheaper. The TV license fee isn't a tax per se - it doesn't go in to the government's coffers. As it is, your numbers are a bit low.

      At about £10 per month (USD$16/CAD$23) it's really excellent value for money - I was paying (I ditched it) nearly CAD$70/mo for cable (basic cable is something like CAD$44), and ended up mostly watching the BBC or a couple of channels I could watch for free over the air. This license fee doesn't just pay for the 8 television channels, but also 10 national radio networks, 50 local radio stations, and more. I don't know if it includes the World Service too. One has to admit that the BBC's web site is one of the best news sources on the internet. On top of that, the UK has better broadcast quality too having gone wide screen years ago, and now free digital services too.

      The BBC is high quality and provides tough competition for the other commercial channels who would otherwise slip in to the low-quality mediocracy that plagues N. American "free" TV. In fact, some of the newer channels like Channel 5 could very well be American. Personally I didn't like having the choice of hundreds of channels on digital cable here in Toronto... most of the time there was nothing on, and flipping through the channels provided mostly adverts. Bah!

    4. Re:Register hypocrisy? by Nexus+Seven · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not only doesn't the British government not "own" the BBC, it is legally prevented from interfering with its operation.

      The BBC, IIRC, is overseen by a board of 12 governors, who are appointed by Parliament's upper house. These appointees are drawn from a variety of backgrounds and cultures. The governors act as the corporation's shareholders; setting and monitor targets; hiring and firing management; and generally making sure that the population gets its money's worth. The governors don't have any say in the running of the corporation. The board's meetings are minuted and are publicly available

      Part of the BBC's constitution, and UK law, is that the BBC is free from any political affiliation and that its freedom is guaranteed.

    5. Re:Register hypocrisy? by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 2, Interesting
      " I really don't think having "only" four or five different TV companies available (to non-cable/satellite subscribers) is a problem - especially when so many people have cable or satellite, giving them literally hundreds of different channels to choose from. Not to mention a huge number of newspapers and magazines, and of course the Internet! "

      Yes, that is the exact argument Michael Powell of the FCC is making. But the flaw in that argument is that the same four or five large media conglomerates control all those cable and satellite channels, and newspapers, and magazines, and popular Net sites. So what may appear on the surface to be choice is really just a redirecting of the same old corporate spigot into many different rivulets of the same message. Only the pretty packaging changes. The point of view remains the same.

      Why does this matter, and how does your UK situation not really apply? Because times have changed. It used to be people got their news primarily from the newspaper, and there was an abundance of papers to choose from, each with a point of view. In the last couple of decades things have changed. Now most people get their news from TV. Just as people are coming to depend on TV the most for information, the sources of information are consolidating into a handful of choices, all controlled by multinational corporations with fiscally conservative perspectives and spin on the news.

      What is the future of information going to be like? Look at U.S. radio once Clear Channel leveled the field, smoothing over independence and innovation and leaving only the same choice in each town as in every other town. A homogenization of perspective has happened.

      The same is about to happen to national news, or rather an accelerating of this effect is about to be seen. Choice of viewpoint will be reduced and marginalized, and as people get their viewpoint primarily from TV what they will get spoon-fed will be the same everywhere.

      Those of us who are tech-savvy can still get alternate points of view on the Net...at least for now. But just wait. As cable companies control more and more of the Net experience, it will become irresistable for them to start tinkering with what we can or cannot see online. Remember, those cable companies are controlled by those same 4 or 5 multinational conglomerates. As those companies control every form of media, they will eventually strike against alternative perspectives that remain. We'll complain, but who will listen? Look at how this FCC decision has gone. Public comment? They don't care! The public airwaves? Ha! Go away, kid, you're bothering me...

      ------------

    6. Re:Register hypocrisy? by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Compared to the UK situation, where 2 of the 5 analogue broadcast channels are part of the tax-funded BBC?

      It's not exactly a tax. The government has no control over how it's spent for one thing, and changing it is very hard.

      Keep this in mind: For years, the UK had just three different TV companies - the largest one state-owned

      The BBC is not state owned. I don't know why people think this. The government have no control over it, short of a somewhat mythical (and in the Dyke era almost certainly dead) old-boys network.

      Rather, the BBC is controlled by its Director General, and there is a controlling board too. Major changes, like launching new channels, have to get the approval of the media/culture secretary iirc.

      So, the state acts as a check/balance. It cannot influence journalistic integrity however.

    7. Re:Register hypocrisy? by Cyberdyne · · Score: 1
      It's not exactly a tax. The government has no control over how it's spent for one thing, and changing it is very hard.

      The government created it, the government defines how much it is, and the government decides how the BBC operates (setting quotas for outsourced production, domestic content etc). The BBC also receives several hundred million per year in additional funding directly from the Treasury, from general taxation revenue.

      The government have no control over it, short of a somewhat mythical (and in the Dyke era almost certainly dead) old-boys network. Rather, the BBC is controlled by its Director General,

      Who is appointed by the government, under government rules.

      Major changes, like launching new channels, have to get the approval of the media/culture secretary iirc.

      And the media/culture secretary would be part of ... the government?

  12. Powell backs out of Nightline interview... by aquarian · · Score: 4, Informative

    They just covered this topic on Ted Koppel's Nightline. Barry Diller (who is *against* this deregulation, BTW) appeared along with 1 or 2 other big players. Michael Powell was supposed to appear too, but conveniently cancelled. I say "conveniently" because I really think he's trying to quell the debate now that it's gathered steam, and move forward June 2 with no resistance.

    1. Re:Powell backs out of Nightline interview... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm, I watched that same episode, and IIRC, in his place they had an FCC commissioner.

      And why would Powell have signed on to the live interview in the first place, if he intended to cancel? Nightline was still able to interview him on video, clips of which they showed in the broadcast.

  13. Ted Tuner by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    is my father.

    --
    Dr. Nightmare, Attorney at Law.

    1. Re:Ted Tuner by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Soviet Russia, you are Ted Turner's father.

    2. Re:Ted Tuner by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm Ted Turner in Soviet Russia, you inconsiderate clod!

  14. Moron-ic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah when it starts with "more on" I know it's going to be stupid.

  15. Re:Competition is a good thing in theory... by malfunct · · Score: 5, Informative
    Actually the parent has a point, he just failed to actually finish saying it.

    Competition is good unless the network effect is extremely strong.

    Basically that means competition is good at bringing down prices but sometimes the benefit of having a single solution that everyone uses is more than the reduction of price that would come with competition.

    In this case however I think we have something thats more anti-competative. Phone company A runs fiber to a house (either because they got to the area first or the person in the house requested company A) then when the person with that line decides that company B might have a better service the cost to change companies is prohibitive because company A won't sell its fiber line, or more to the point company B won't use the line from company A that the person already purchased and instead wants them to purchase another line.

    --

    "You can now flame me, I am full of love,"

  16. Support costs by Malc · · Score: 5, Informative

    "so if Verizon runs fiber to your house, you'll be able to get Verizon service or none at all."

    I would have thought a telco could make lots of money by rolling out fiber connections and then leasing them wholesale at above their costs. They won't have to support end users and the costly call centres, services, network infrastructure and bandwidth that that involves. They'll just have to provide the same infrastructure services that they need to provide anyway.

    Where I live, I can get DSL from the my local telco for CAD$45 (1.2mbs), or from a small ISP for $50 (3.5mbs). Apparently the local telco charges ~CAD$20 for DSLAM port leases. I'm glad I'm not paying for useless tech support or a heavily subsidised ISP portal that I would never use. It's easy money: I think they only support the CO, and line from there to the outside of my house.

    1. Re:Support costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where I live in the US I can get DSL+ISP+YahooPremium from the local telco (SBC) for the price of $35/mo (renewable yearly).

      The DSL subsidiary of this incumbent telco charges a good local independent ISP between $36 and $40 for service to me over the same line.

      Either the DSL+ISP+Yahoo pricing is a special "run the competition out of business" deal or the telco claims of being forced to lease lines at below cost fall rather flat.

  17. Media stranglehold by mtcrowe · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Usually, I'm a big free market proponent, but even I can see how media consolidation is a bad thing for the average American consumer.

    Right now, we have four major television networks: ABC, NBC, FOX, and CBS. Watch each network's nightly news broadcasts; they're not all that different. And although news organizations like to say that they're unbiased and "just reporting the facts, ma'am", the way in which you present "the facts" gives a strong indication as to your opinion of it.

    "Republicans Hand Wealthy Americans Large Tax Break" vs. "American Citizens Will Pay Less in Taxes" gives a pretty good impression of what the writer thinks of the tax breaks.

    1. Re:Media stranglehold by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right now, we have four major television networks: ABC, NBC, FOX, and CBS. Watch each network's nightly news broadcasts; they're not all that different.

      Yeah but the beauty of that is that the news anchor with the most soothing voice/pleasing asthetics can then be the sole debate on how I receive my "programming"...

    2. Re:Media stranglehold by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so... nakednews.com for you then?

    3. Re:Media stranglehold by jamesbrown1000 · · Score: 1

      "Republicans Hand Wealthy Americans Large Tax Break" vs. "American Citizens Will Pay Less in Taxes" gives a pretty good impression of what the writer thinks of the tax breaks --

      Unless, of course, the truth is BOTH AT THE SAME TIME, in which case I guess I'd ... what ... listen to both sides?

      --
      Mindy: "Well...desserts aren't always right." Homer: "But they're so sweet!"
    4. Re:Media stranglehold by Malc · · Score: 1

      ABC used to have quite a good broadcast presented by a Canadian called Peter Jennings: ABC World News. Unfortunately when I lived in Denver, it was on at 17.30 MT - who the hell can get home from work in time to see that?

    5. Re:Media stranglehold by mqatrombone · · Score: 1

      even more fun, read the New York Times that morning. you'll be surprised how many stories are on the front page.

      --
      If 76 Trombones really led the big parade, why did they have anyone else in it?
    6. Re:Media stranglehold by eyeye · · Score: 1

      You wont be able to when theres only one side.

      Thats the OPs real point and one you ignored to pounce on a bit of fluff.

      --
      Bush and Blair ate my sig!
    7. Re:Media stranglehold by eidechse · · Score: 1

      Usually, I'm a big free market proponent, but even I can see how media consolidation is a bad thing...

      As a proponent of free markets you should see this as bad. The benefits of a "free market" don't come purely from a lack of government interference. It's also necessary that the market be free from private interference.

    8. Re:Media stranglehold by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And although news organizations like to say that they're unbiased and "just reporting the facts, ma'am", the way in which you present "the facts" gives a strong indication as to your opinion of it.

      Even more important is which facts you choose to or not to report. This story points that out. The major news outlets are ignoring it. Think maybe they stand to gain something from people begin kept ignorant?

  18. Re:I think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think one post from your painfully-unfunny ass is more than enough per story. You have exhausted your quota and then some, trouble us no more.

  19. Sorry to play devils advocate by Psyberian · · Score: 1

    But couldn't this be a good thing, If handled right. Internet handled like a utility, not a commodity. No more ISPs going under and customers being sold to another ISP without the user knowing. You could just be given a group of IPs and could use them anywhere withing a given area for wireless or a connection at a variety of sources.

    Now I work for an ISP so I know this would have me looking for a new job, but it would be a cool idea if done right. We just have to keep AOL and MSN out of the mix.

    1. Re:Sorry to play devils advocate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      You must be very young. Business is business -- it will not be handled right -- by your definition, that is. Right will be maximum revenue through minimum effort. Makes consumers lives easier is most assuredly not in their plans.

      Why on earth would profit-seeking corporations run their business like a utility?

    2. Re:Sorry to play devils advocate by Psyberian · · Score: 1

      Not young, just optimistic. I doubt that it would or could happen. But ideally not having scattered mom and pop ISPs all over the place with no real standard is going to cause major problems in the next few years.

      I myself only give the Internet market 5 to 10 years with how it is currently running. Who knows what, but I have a feeling there will be some major changes in the next few years.

  20. HA! by s4m7 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Does anyone still remember when the FCC was supposed to HELP the consumer, by regulating the communications industry on our behalf?

    now, the FCC serves to help monopolies, by regulating the consumer on the industries' behalf. Why is it that mechanisms to prevent consumers getting screwed always wind up being used against us?

    --
    This comment is fully compliant with RFC 527.
    1. Re:HA! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because that's how capitalism works.

      Nice in theory, shit in practice.

  21. key point missed by Uhh_Duh · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I don't understand how forcing a LEC to share their infrastructure promotes growth. It does the opposite.

    Would you pay billions to deploy an infrastructure if you were going to be forced by the FCC to let your competition use it? Hell no.

    Come on people. Forcing businesses to share what they build is only going to make them not build it in the first place. Letting them keep what they build will encourage competition and give multiple carriers a fair shot at the same market. Granted, the little guys aren't going to be in a position to deploy billions of dollars in Fiber to homes that are only willing to pay $50/mo for service (I don't see this as a winning venture no matter HOW you look at it) but that's what VC's are for I guess.

    If it's a profitable venture, the money will be on the table for more than one person to go after it. If it's not profitable (once again, Fiber to the home at $50 a month? Sorry kids, this isn't magic fairy land) then nobody will touch it anyway.

    Capitalism is a beautiful thing.

    --
    -- People who hate Windows use Linux. People who love UNIX use BSD.
    1. Re:key point missed by SmilingMonk · · Score: 1
      I don't understand how forcing a LEC to share their infrastructure promotes growth. It does the opposite... Forcing businesses to share what they build is only going to make them not build it in the first place. Letting them keep what they build will encourage competition and give multiple carriers a fair shot at the same market...

      The regulations you seem so eager to dismantle didn't stop the very companies you defend from laying enough fiber in the city of Portland, Oregon to reach every man, woman, and child in the entire US.

      Perhaps you miss the point? Too much media control in the hands of the few goes against the clearly written charter of the FCC. There was a time, in the not so distant past, when the "airwaves" belonged to you and I, and not to someone sitting on top of a very large pile of money.

    2. Re:key point missed by Uhh_Duh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The airwaves are a slightly different story, since there's a finite amount of space available on which to broadcast FM radio signals that can be received by consumers with a $5 radio. Want to know what happens when someone's not regulating the airwaves? Turn your CB to channel 19 and experience a world where money doesn't control what you can broadcast.

      Private infrastructure is a completely different story. You simply can't expect someone to lay out billions of investment and then DEMAND that they let their COMPETITION use it! How would you feel if you bought a house and the government passed a law that said you had no choice but to let transients sleep in your living room if they wanted to. That's YOUR house and YOUR money. You will let whomever you wish sleep there. Why is private infrastructure any different? If you don't want to pay their fees, then don't. The price can't be set any higher than people are willing to pay or nobody would buy it and they wouldn't roll it out in the first place.

      Isn't it nice when nobody tells you what you have to do? It goes both ways.

      --
      -- People who hate Windows use Linux. People who love UNIX use BSD.
    3. Re:key point missed by 3Bees · · Score: 1

      And, of course, it will be very beautiful when the street needs to get torn up four times to allow each of four different companies to run their fiber. Most city councils will not be very enthusiastic about that!

      --
      "I think we should tax people who stand in water! " - Mr. Gumby
    4. Re:key point missed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are the one who missed the key point.

      Laying 1000Mbps fiber isn't much expensive that laying 100Mbps fiber. The problem is that if infrastructure isn't shared, 90% of it will be wasted. How this encourages "growth"?

    5. Re:key point missed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So then I assume you consider the microsoft monopoly good for the computer industry?

    6. Re:key point missed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry kids, this isn't magic fairy land

      No, it's not, but you certainly do believe a lot of free market fantasies...

    7. Re:key point missed by theLOUDroom · · Score: 2, Informative
      Capitalism is a beautiful thing.

      Uhh_Duh you don't get it.

      Capitalism work great for some things, but is terrible for others.

      Capitalism is terrible in monoply situations. If you bothered to learn some economics, you would learn about the concept of "monopoly price".

      These companies own sole rights to run the fiber. How many set of telephone poles go by your house? Exactly. Capitalism (in the sense that you're talking about) is a terrible thing is this situation, because even if someone else is willing to do it better, cheaper, they can't.

      Cconsider this situation:
      Telco A owns all the rights to run fiber throughout a city. They decide to run fiber to 15% of the city, as this maximizes their profits. They charge the monopoly price. No one else can run fiber, since they own all the rights.

      Now what if they had to lease their fiber?
      Several things happen:
      • They can no longer charge the monopoly price. This is bad for them and good for consumers.
      • They are allowed to charge for the use of their fiber. This allows them to make a reasonable profit, and maintains the incentive to run fiber.
      • They have an incentive to run fiber to places others are willing to provide service to, but they aren't.
      Under this situation, the only time fiber isn't run is when no one is willing to lease enough of it to pay the cost of its maintenence. Under your idea of glorious capitalism, fiber isn't run anywhere the market will not support the cost or real fiber maintence plus service at a monopoly price.
      Thus more fiber gets run more places.

      Q: Why doesn't the telco just lease the fiber, even if they aren't forced to?

      A: Because it destroys their ability to charge the monopoly price. If they lease it at a competitive price, their monopoly price will be undercut. If they lease it at a price which will not allow anyone to undercut their monopoly, not one will lease it from them, since they wouldn't be able to make money doing so.
      --
      Life is too short to proofread.
    8. Re:key point missed by An+Onerous+Coward · · Score: 1

      Bad analogy.

      If I build a house, it is for my own private use. If I build a telecom network, it is to provide service to the people of that area.

      If I build a house, nothing is stopping other people from building houses in the same neighborhood. If I build a network, the next company that tries to develop the area is put at a huge disadvantage. They not only have to ask permission from a city council which already had its streets ripped up once, but all the valuable customers already have service thankyouverymuch.

      Let's try a better analogy. Say I grab some land out in the middle of nowhere, and put a warehouse on it. As part of the deal, I pay an absurd sum to the government to build a road to connect my land with the highway. Life is good.

      Then another company builds a similar warehouse on the lot next to mine, and grabs several important contracts away from my business. Suddenly, they're using the road that I paid for, and I get nothing in return. Am I angry? Of course. Should I have the right to force my neighbor to build his own road? Not at all.

      I think this analogy is more apt. BTW, I'm still trying to figure out how the transient is my "competition." Whatever, he'd still better not hog the Frosted Flakes.

      --

      You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!

  22. I'm sick of the BS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm sick of the BS "I own the network and don't want to play nice with others" argument the Bells push. It's about time to remove the Bells ability to do things like that. What it should be is, for all phone, internet, cable, or other such services, there should be one player that owns the network and make the equipment investment. But they would not be allowed to sell any of it to regular consumers. Instead, they should only be allowed to lease the use of the equipment to anyone that wants it...the Bells, private ISPs, private cable companys, anyone. That way there is no conflict of interest that there is in the current system. All the companies are on equal ground. Consumers have a true choice on who to use. You don't like one company, move on to the next one. It won't matter, because the service is all on the same network, just different content. Interoptibility is flawless. There would finally be true competition to provide the consumer with the best experience.

    But unless MAJOR restructuring happens, we'll never see this. The consumer is just the ragdoll being fought over by dogs. Only one dog is a terrier and the other is a rottweiler. Either way, the consumer still has teeth sunk into them.

  23. Dude, deregulation was back in 1973. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And there were only 10 channels on cable then. Stop whining.

  24. Re:sorry to be crude butt... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just wait till those companies merge into one giant company!

    You thought those rolling blackouts in california caused by *ahem* "unethical" energy businesses where fun? You ain't seen nothin' yet! Wait till the enrgy company and the company that owns all the tv and radio stations is the same!

    Oh and since the WTO and the IMF continually press developing countries to PRIVATIZE WATER this is going to be the future!

  25. This will save me a lot of time by perrin_harkins · · Score: 1

    Now I won't need to bother getting opinions from multiple sources, since there will only be one source. Thanks FCC!

  26. Private monopolies vs. public monopolies by cheezfreek · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Note that the FCC is removing any requirement for the Bells to share their fiber, so if Verizon runs fiber to your house, you'll be able to get Verizon service or none at all.

    And this is better than a public, government-run-and-regulated monopoly how exactly?

    1. Re:Private monopolies vs. public monopolies by praedor · · Score: 1

      There is more than just the one choice: commercial monopoly or government monopoly. REQUIRE sharing the infrastructure, period. Then provide tax incentives for all of them to get together to pay for laying fiber/ugrading the system.


      In any case, government monopoly is better than commercial monopoly because it is almost invariably cheaper.


      Better still, take infrastructure out of the hands of the telcos and hand it over to another body that is required to lease the lines on an equal basis to any takers.

      --
      In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
    2. Re:Private monopolies vs. public monopolies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Verizon can charge higher prices and is only accountable to people with a few million dollars worth of stock.

      Oh you asked how it was BETTER?

      Hmmm...

    3. Re:Private monopolies vs. public monopolies by An+Onerous+Coward · · Score: 1
      "And this is better than a public, government-run-and-regulated monopoly how exactly?"
      A few reasons:

      A government-run monopoly will be more committed to laying fiber everywhere, not just to those areas that offer the highest ROI.

      If a government-run monopoly is overcharging, voters can tell them to stop. A corporate monopoly only needs to listen to the shareholders (who just happen to benefit from the overcharging).

      Private companies are less beholden to pesky rules like the First Amendment.
      --

      You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!

  27. FCC... by jdreed1024 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Why do we even _have_ the FCC?

    I mean, sure, I know why they exist, and why they were created. (And yes, we'd probably be worse off without them, but still, I don't think I'm the only one frustrated with their recent behavior) They were created to regulate and designate the airwaves in the public interest. Except lately they seem to have forgotten those last two words. Cable deregulation was not in the public interest (unless people are interested in paying higher prices). Massive media conglomerates are not really in the public interest.

    Seems the FCC is more concerned with helping the big Telcos and special interest groups, instead of caring about what the people have to say.

    But I guess that's par for the course in today's government.

    --
    There is no sig, there is only Zuul.
    1. Re:FCC... by chmilar · · Score: 1

      Under the Bush administration, the definition of "public interest" has changed.

      The new religion is that deregulation is always, ultimately, in the public interest. It is a new form of the "trickle down" economic theory that Reagan espoused. If corporations are allowed to act in their own self interest, benefits will trickle down to the consumer ("the public" is now defined as "consumers" - after all, how could we be anything else?). The catchphrase: Regulation hinders the corporation from delivering what the consumer demands.

      So, to clear up the doublespeak:

      public interest = corporate interest

      the public = consumers

      The old days of "public interest" are gone, at least until the next election when Bush will be gone.

      --
      Reading Slashdot is ruining my spelling and grammar.
    2. Re:FCC... by elmegil · · Score: 1
      The old days of "public interest" are gone, at least until the next election when Bush will be gone.

      Oh please...

      1) Bush isn't the one who got us here. He's accellerated the process, certainly, but Billy Bob did more than his share of acquiesence to this BS, and I'm betting Gore would have too.

      2) Bush won't be gone if the Democrats still haven't found a spine by next November. I don't see any sign of real spine in them yet, just a lot of blowhard air that means nothing.

      --
      7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
    3. Re:FCC... by certsoft · · Score: 1
      It is a new form of the "trickle down" economic theory that Reagan espoused.

      The key word here is "trickle".

  28. If your house is already built, go suck an egg. by crovira · · Score: 3, Interesting

    But the new developments and apartment buildings will probably get fibre because its cheaper for the telcos.

    We've been paying a surcharge for years for this and there's zilch implemented. My old building that was built in 1949 had twisted wire pair clad in cotton. I thought it was the wire for the friggin' door bell.

    The newer ones have had four condictor plastic clad wire sincethen until now. As for fibre to your house, or even street switch box... Fuggedaboudit...

    They wait until the infrastructure suffers an irrevocable breakdown (like a pole falling over, an underground pipe getting a back-hoe through it or fire and explosion at a CO,) before replacing a foot of wire.

    And even then they're going to use left-over copper wire until its all gone.

    --
    MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
    1. Re:If your house is already built, go suck an egg. by praedor · · Score: 2, Funny

      Good thought. I think I'll rent a backhoe and repeatedly cut their phonelines around the local area until they run out of twisted sister pair and put in the good stuff.


      Perhaps I could keep frying their lines by pumping power outlet juice down the wire periodically when there are storms in the broad vicinity so it can get blamed on lightening strikes.

      --
      In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
  29. Slow down, cowboy! by Seth+Finklestein · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I'll try to accumulate some links not previously posted.

    Posted about what, Michael?

    William Safire comments.

    He does? What is he commenting about?

    The Register has an editorial;

    An editorial, you say? My local paper has one too, but you don't see me obsessing over it.

    see also The Guardian for more on the British perspective.

    Good advice.

    Associated Press story.

    This sentence is a fragment; consider revising it.

    Listen, Michael. I know you're excited about oppressing me, but you could at least take the time to write meaningful sentences. I've been doing that since before you were born.

    --
    I'm not Seth Finkelstein. I still speak the truth.
  30. So what if I get to pay for services I don't get? by twitter · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I work for a CLEC

    I doubt that.

    The "infrastructure" you speak of was built on public property with monopoly protection. It really belongs to everyone. Just giving it to one company gives that encumbent company the ability to rape the public who get to pay the cost of creating uneeded duplicate ifrastructures while suffering the use of ageing equipment. When you live by public protection, you die by it as well. I'd love to see just anyone able to build infrastructure, but I don't think that it's either possible, permitted or required. Alternate networks will be built and we will all pay for them and then the bells will buy the up when they fail because they don't have to co-operate now. Ready for another century of pay per minute rape telco service?

    I doubt the telecom act of 1996 was meant to create an industry that relied on cheap prices by the bells and only on reselling.

    No it was not. But my fiber that runs from one side of my house to the other and can't hook into the network everyone else is using does me no good. A network only works if the players co-operate. The Bells have promissed us Broadband Stagnation. This is all just more of the same.

    Society is really screwed up when this what we have to do to escape such a rape.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  31. Can I send my bills? by StarTux · · Score: 2, Funny

    To the FCC chairman? This will create a monopoly and hence drive up prices...As an analogy in my apartment I can only get DirecTV and boy, they are so expensive! Not sure if cable has changed, but I was paying about $30 ess for the same service.

    Now it looks like fiber to the home is going the same way, huge price and with little choice.

    Chairman of the FCC should be given two choices; Resign or be fired.

    StarTux

  32. ...learn from the past... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The companies being regulated have a strong interest in keeping track of and influencing the form regulation takes. The consumer getting screwed is only slightly screwed by any one bit of regulation, so it isn't worth the average voter's time to pay attention.

    The same thing happened with the ICC a hundred years ago. The Interstate Commerce Commission was formed (IIRC) because consumers wanted something done about the price of rail transportation on routes where one company had a local monopoly. The actual regulation was influenced heavily by the railroads, though, so it mostly meant that prices went up on the formerly competitive routes.
    Then rail started facing competition from truckers, so trucking was regulated too, to make sure the consumer stayed screwed.

  33. More Links by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.heritage.org/Research/InternetandTechno logy/wm284.cfm

  34. Re:So what if I get to pay for services I don't ge by alen · · Score: 1

    With CLEC's that build out their own networks they can offer their own broadband services to compete with the bells. But you have to pay the $$$ and build your infrastructure.

  35. Flamebait??!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gee, I guess only Americans would moderate the truth as 'Troll' or 'Flamebait'.

    1. Re:Flamebait??!! by Sebby · · Score: 1

      and how!

      --

      AC comments get piped to /dev/null
  36. Please.....get real by Selecter · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It's amazing to me that no one has brought up the real pisser in all this. Back in the 20's when radio first started, you could apply for a license for a AM radio station and have it granted FOR FREE. These stations usually grew into media empires of their own. After 15 changes of ownership or whatever all these stations were absorbed like the Borg into the BS we have on the airwaves today. The point is: They got started for FREE! Today you cant buy a AM radio station license for less than 225K, even in the WORST area, becuase you have to transfer the licenses, they stopped giving new ones years and years ago. It's like legal machine guns, you can buy em sure enuff but becuase you can only get an existing one transferred, it costs megabucks. This is true of all broadcast media: it costs somewhere around 100K to even share ownership of some brokedick AM station in Podunk somewheres. Never mind trying to start a radio or TV station in a actual city somewhere poeple might actually listen to you. And this has happened with the *CURRENT* rules in play. This is why the internet still thrives. It's he only place left that big business cannot totally co-opt.

  37. An opposing view: Myth of Media Concentration by Poisonous+Drool · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Here's an opposing viewpoint:

    The Myth of Media Concentration: Why the FCC's Media Ownership Rules Are Unnecessary

    Here's a snippet:

    On June 2, the Federal Communications Commission will vote on whether to modify or even repeal its restrictions on ownership of broadcast stations. Opponents argue that changes to these rules would reduce diversity in an already concentrated market - warning that big media "monopolies" are already limiting what Americans see and hear.

    They are mistaken. Despite many mergers in the media industry in recent years, Americans today actually enjoy more diversity and competition in the media than at any other time in history, thanks to cable TV, Internet, the licensing of new broadcast stations and other factors.

    Rather than media monopolies, consumers face a bewildering and unprecedented amount of choice. Instead, the real danger to Americans is that outdated and unnecessary FCC restrictions will limit improvements in media markets and technologies, limiting the benefits that they can provide.

    1. Re:An opposing view: Myth of Media Concentration by Lysander+Luddite · · Score: 1

      Ahh yes, the Heritage Foundation. There's an objective group of democrats (small d).

      "Don't piss in my mouth and tell me its Coors."

    2. Re:An opposing view: Myth of Media Concentration by rhakka · · Score: 2, Insightful

      hardly. You have a choice of genres sure, but choice in viewpoints?

      One company running 1000 channels is not a choice of 1000 viewpoints, it's one viewpoint with 1000 faces.

      Just for an indication of how insidious the problem is, how many stories on this have you seen in the major media outlets? Gosh, this must not be very newsworthy. Or perhaps the few companies that run the major media outlets don't think you need to hear about it very much. Odd, huh?

    3. Re:An opposing view: Myth of Media Concentration by benzapp · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They are mistaken. Despite many mergers in the media industry in recent years, Americans today actually enjoy more diversity and competition in the media than at any other time in history, thanks to cable TV, Internet, the licensing of new broadcast stations and other factors.

      Say what?

      If it wasn't for the internet, this statement would be completely laughable. We aren't talking about the internet anyway, we are talking about RADIO. Why bring in other media forms. It is going to be 10 years before wireless internet truly makes radio obsolete, and even then... what about rural areas.

      There is NOTHING on TV or the radio. NOTHING. It is a complete crapfest. The folks at the Heritage foundation are just incapable of admitting that in some cases, government regulation is good.

      --
      I don't read or respond to AC posts
    4. Re:An opposing view: Myth of Media Concentration by elefantstn · · Score: 1

      I can guarantee that someone who would contradict the statement that there is "more diversity and competition in the media than at any other time in history" either was born after the advent of cable TV or is suffering from amnesia.

      Sure, Benzapp -- there was SO MUCH MORE diversity when television consisted entirely of ABC, NBC, and CBS.

      And there's plenty of good stuff (and awful stuff) on TV, no matter what you tell yourself.

      --
      If it ain't broke, you need more software.
  38. moron narrowing the scope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's a BAD fauxking corepirate nazi idea.

    just look what happens when you sell yourself/soul/spirit, like there's nonetscape, for monIE?

    consult with yOUR creator. many pending events require yOUR attention.

    1. Re:moron narrowing the scope by Mr.+Tambourine+Man · · Score: 0

      Yes, I agree, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

  39. What happened to democracy? by sdibb · · Score: 2, Interesting
    While Powell said he values public input on the rules, it ultimately will be of little help in crafting ownership laws that stand up in court.

    "You don't govern just by polls and surveys," he said. "We have to exercise difficult judgments and abide by the law. If all of our rulemaking was just a case of put them out and take a referendum, things would be a lot easier."

    referendum

    \Ref`er*en"dum\, n.; pl. -da. [Gerundive fr. L. referre. See Refer.] The principle or practice of referring measures passed upon by the legislative body to the body of voters, or electorate, for approval or rejection...

    democracy

    \De*moc"ra*cy\, n.; pl. Democracies. [F. d['e]mocratie, fr. Gr. dhmokrati`a; dh^mos the people + kratei^n to be strong, to rule, kra`tos strength.] 1. Government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is retained and directly exercised by the people.

    1. Re:What happened to democracy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since when is this country a democracy? It's a constitutional republic.

    2. Re:What happened to democracy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner.

      Be glad you live in a republic.

    3. Re:What happened to democracy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and the corollary to that is:

      and the 2nd amendment is the sheep's way to enforce the vote. or something to that effect.

      a bugg

    4. Re:What happened to democracy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually it is...

      "Democracy is two wolves and sheep deciding on what to have for dinner, liberty is a well armed sheep."

      Ben Franklin

  40. Beware: already largely happened in Canada by Sara+Chan · · Score: 4, Informative
    In most big cites in Canada, CanWest Global Communications owns at least the dominant newspaper and one of the top television stations. In Montreal, the second-largest city, it owns the lone English-language daily newspaper as well as one of two private English-language television stations. In Vancouver, the third largest city, it owns both daily newspapers and two of the top three television stations. It also owns numerous other newspapers, including the major daily in the Canadian capital (the Ottawa Citizen), as well as television stations reaching 94% of English-speaking Canadians.

    The owner is staunchly pro-Israel (his name is Israel Asper): so all CanWest media must provide pro-Israel news coverage of the Middle East. Journalists who don't follow this can be fired or suspended. And all CanWest newspapers are required to print company editorials on national and international issues. Even worse, CanWest is pro the current Liberal government: so the government has done nothing during the past few years while CanWest spread.

    The Economist had story last year and another story the year before giving details.


    __________________________
    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." --Goethe

    1. Re:Beware: already largely happened in Canada by jat850 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even worse, CanWest is pro the current Liberal government

      Wow. You must be watching a different Global than I watch ... Kevin Newman (and the rest of Global News) has such an anti-liberal slant it's not even funny. Have you EVER watched the segment called "The Last Word"? I would guess that the CanWest Global network is far more right-leaning than pro-liberal.

      --
      the blood has stopped pumping, and he's left to decay
      the me that you know is now made up of wires
    2. Re:Beware: already largely happened in Canada by Malc · · Score: 1

      Canwest are bad? Peter Mansbridge looked like he was creaming in his pants during the last election! I love the CBC, but if there's one thing they have a problem with, its being far too Liberal and NDP friendly. I guess they want to protect their source of income :(

    3. Re:Beware: already largely happened in Canada by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CanWest is definitely pro the Prime Minister. Their policy is to control editorials on most national and international issues, less so the news. For Middle Eastern issues, though, they also influence the news, according to The Economist. (Erstwhile media baron Bob Maxwell was an official national hero of Israel.)

  41. FFFCCP! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First FUCK THE FCC post!

  42. TAKE ACTION! ACLU action website has a quick way by Mr.FreakyBig · · Score: 2, Informative

    So, instead of just feeling bad, powerless, screwed, angry about this mess, do something about it. I did. Go to ACLU Action page to send nice boiler plate text e-mail/faxes to each of the various decision makers in this process.

  43. morons already shortchanging US on the facts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    eye gas it'll be gooed when there's only won channel?

    this is like some whoreabull corepirate nazi georgewellian fairytail nightmare, right?

    we'll wait patiently for 'news' of more phonIE 'enactmeNTs' to fake place? some are saying this is the BiG won. lookout bullow. vote with yOUR wallet.

  44. But... but... but, but, but.... by Thud457 · · Score: 2, Funny
    "TV is a non-essential service. Ditch it and stop whining."

    Where should I get my NEWS from?!!

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  45. Model: Electricity De-regulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The proposed model is the very one used for electricity de-regulation in Ontario (and possibly California, I don't know). Although a critical difference is that connectivity has a much more stable cost structure, as compared with the price of uranium constantly fluctuating.
    However, this creates a monopoly at a different level and would introduce bloat and waste at the network level. Need I point to NetworkSolution's handling of domains? And end up ensuring EVERYONE's internet costs going up and you wouldn't be able to switch to someone else to get away from it.

  46. Re:What the ?! by SEWilco · · Score: 1

    Yes, it would be so much simpler if there was only one source for news. Only one link would be needed in that article.

  47. Why not... by WetCat · · Score: 1

    they own their own fiber.
    BUT, this is partially fair only when ANY other company can t dig and put its own cable to your home. Is it possible?
    I mean, is there any non-economical restrictions on how to do that?

  48. Simple. by RatBastard · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The answer is very simple: our government is for sale.

    --
    Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
    1. Re:Simple. by hondo77 · · Score: 1

      Already sold. The fix is in. Just waiting for the paperwork to go through.

      --
      I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
  49. Nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The supreme power is to decide who gets to run the show.

  50. Fiber monopolies by zerofoo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I see alot of people here debating the monopolistic impacts of a single company running fiber to a house. Just because Verizon runs fiber to your house doesn't mean they have a monopoly on the data services comming into your house.

    Go outside and count the number of cables comming into your home. The average home has three types:

    Non-twisted copper pair (voice grade).

    Coaxial cable (rg-59 or rg-6).

    3 phase 220 power lines.

    Data can be transmitted on all three types without fiber. The coaxial cable option will definitely give fiber a run for its money. The new DOCSIS 2.0 spec is 30 Mbps symetric!

    I'm already getting 10Mbps/1Mbps across my cable connection without fiber to my home. By the time the telcos get their act together cable will have scaled to double or triple its current speeds. Granted, it's not as "cool" as saying you've got fiber, but i'll tell you i prefer surfing the web over my cable connection versus the fiber T1 at work.

    There is always competition to supply where there is sufficent demand.

    -ted

    1. Re:Fiber monopolies by praedor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nice, for you privaledged city-slickers. Fuck the many citizens in rural areas. I suppose we should be happy we got power (only because the government forced it, 'cause no company would EVER have run power lines to rural areas if allowed to merely base such decisions on profit motive). Fiber would benefit rural and city dwellers equally. We (rural-ites) would be able to get the same high-speed telecom that city dwellers take for granted. Satellite doesn't count because it is 1) overpriced, and 2) suffers horrific latencies, and 3) it's the ONLY option vs 56k dialup.


      Revamp the infrastructure with fiber and suddenly there is competition throughout the country for broadband connectivity. Hopefully, fiber would put the satellite losers out of business.


      Having just one company, say Verizon, run fiber to, say, my home, and then restrict me to Verizon service or none is unacceptable. First, this makes them a monopoly that WILL (not might, WILL) overcharge and cackle about it. Second, Verizon is a huge privacy violation - selling customer information without shame or limit. They can kiss my horse's puckered a-hole.

      --
      In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
    2. Re:Fiber monopolies by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      What if you want someone elses fiber.

      Oops can't. Local laws dictate only one fiber can enter home. Well how about I removed Verizons fiber . Oops can't. Well its use verizon or move.

      Go read my other comment on this. Its near impossible to buy cable modems except by aol-timewarner if you live in New York.

    3. Re:Fiber monopolies by cpeterso · · Score: 1


      Don't forget the other network connections available to homes: wireless and satellite. With no infrastructure buried under concrete, many wireless ISPs could compete in the same city. Of course, this extra competition is good for the customer, not the ISPs.. :-)

  51. Duh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Read the headline. I'll wait... NOW do you know hat it ia about?

    ac

  52. FCC Chairman Michael K. Powell by panaceaa · · Score: 3, Interesting
    FCC Chairman Michael K. Powell apparently thinks "democracy" is great when it applies to elections, but not to government policy. In his '99 FCC Commissioner statement, he said:
    The Commission here avowedly promises ... to initiate public debate on "whether, and how, broadcasters' public interest obligations can be refined to promote democracy and better educate the voting public."
    However, after Bush has appointed him as chairman and he's no longer at the whim of an election, he changes his story. Here is his quote in the Washington Post article:

    "You don't govern just by polls and surveys. ... If all of our rulemaking was just a case of put them out and take a referendum, things would be a lot easier."
    It seems to me he isn't following his "promise" of promote democracy.

    I would understand if he called the US Government a republic. But why do so many public figures, elected or appointed, praise the ideals of a democracy but insist on following the processes of a republic? If he wants to promote democracy, he should listen to the petitions and keep the restrictions on entertainment conglomerates.
  53. Great points. by zymano · · Score: 1

    Garbage channels have indeed increased. The cable companies replies are that the sport channels are the ones upping the prices like ESPN. I agree with this. An alacarte system would be kick ASS but will never happen because not everyone can agree on what channels they want and the cable companies have deals with the infomercial junk channels like QVC and Homeshopping network.

  54. A newspaper, online, radio. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Need I list more?

    1. Re:A newspaper, online, radio. by sbournex · · Score: 1

      The rules we are talking about also cover newspapers, and the radio is already heavily consolidated. Wake up.

  55. You go Ted! by John3 · · Score: 1

    Great to hear a media "mogul" weigh in against the further consolidation of media in America. I had some dealings with Ted during my college radio days and he's a straight shooter. Back in those days he was battling to make a mark with his "Superstation" via cable distribution. Now, people like Murdoch just buy more stations if they want to reach new markets.

    --
    "We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers." Carl Sagan
  56. What??? by uberdave · · Score: 4, Funny

    Sell bonds, build, hope you make money on it and then pay for it over a few decades plus interest.

    <Imagined Corporate Rant>
    *Hope* you make money? Over a few decades?? Listen pal, we've got to show a profit, and we've got to show it this quarter. Decades? I plan to be sipping umbrella drinks on a beach somewhere in a decade, not wondering if we'll finally get a return on our investment. Wake up and smell the business plan, friend. Make money now! Make money fast! Screw everything else.
    </Imagined Corporate Rant>

    1. Re:What??? by alen · · Score: 2

      If that is your opinion then you need to look at the balance sheets of some fortune 500 companies and read some of their stories. Microsoft loses money on products and services for years before they become cash cows. GE lost money on plastics for over a decade before they turned it into a cash cow. Taking the long term view is what separates successful companies from those that will go chapter 11 in the next downturn.

    2. Re:What??? by charon_on_acheron · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unfortunately, you are both right. So many established businesses now think they have to make a profit right now that they do all sorts of stupid/crazy/illegal stunts to show they are making that profit. Every quarter's earnings statement seems to be the most important thing in the history of the company, because they have to keep the stockholders happy with big profits. This was part of the Enron debacle, and has revealed the lengths a company will go to to show a profit. (Even while the officers are robbing it blind.)

      It does seem like some of the Fortune 500 companies are going to go down in the next decade, because they think the short term is more important than the long term.

    3. Re:What??? by hazem · · Score: 1

      That's how bonds work. You get the money from the investor today. Every year, you pay some interest, and at the end of the term of the bond, you give the investor his money back. Most bonds are in the 10 to 30 year range.

      Suppose you sell a $1000 20 year bond at 8%. The investor pays you $1000 (or whatever the market says it's worth, based on inflation estimates and your company's credit rating).

      Each year, you pay the owner of that bond $80. After 20 years, you pay him $1000 + $80.

      Corporate debt, in the form of bonds, is necessarily a long-term kind of consideration.

    4. Re:What??? by GnarlyNome · · Score: 1

      True ,but sometimes the price is just too high Palo Alto Ca has a fiber loop and the cost of connection from what I have read (Palo Alto Daily News) can be in the thosands of $$ just to get the last 10 feet . http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,6236476~roo t=ftth~mode=flat
      has a few things on it. Meanwhile I'll stick to my 2tin cans connected with bailing wire (Cain't type that fast anyway)

      --
      Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggie" until you can find a rock. Will Rogers
  57. Outrage seems to have brought the FCC servers down by sbournex · · Score: 1

    Since last night (May 29, 2003), the FCC web page set up for receiving public comment on Broadcast Ownership: http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/ecfs/Upload?hot_docket= 1006400938%7C02-277%7CBroadcast+Ownership&Send=Con tinue or http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/ecfs/Upload?hot_docket=10 06400938%7C02-277%7CBroadcast+Ownership&Send=Conti nue Has returned: "There has been an error" When attempting to post a comment. Public outrage on this issue seems to have brought the FCC servers to their knees.

  58. No, No, and No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    1. I can't read
    2. You can't trust any "NEWS" from AOL
    3. Clearchannel
    Please try again, Ms. Rand!
  59. People used to be scared of the FCC by John3 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    When I was in college radio at MIT, we were so paranoid about the FCC. Did we run enough public service announcements (PSA's), were we serving the community, did anyone play anything offensive on the air, etc. Your station license was up for renewal every year, and you spent weeks before the renewal running announcements about public comments and other BS just in case someone wanted to try and grab the frequency from you. Now (from what I understand), renewals are every five years, and I can't remember the last time I heard a TV or radio station mention that their license was up for renewal. So much for public ownership of the airwaves. Support your local stations and pirate radio.

    --
    "We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers." Carl Sagan
    1. Re:People used to be scared of the FCC by corbettw · · Score: 2

      Along the same lines, it seems like radio stations are getting away with a lot more nowadays when they're owned by big companies. Clear Channel (everyone's favorite group of oligarchs) owns many of the stations here in LA, including Star98.7, the one I listen to the most. Their morning show, Jamie and Danny (starring Danny Partridge), is getting worse and worse about calling people "assholes" on the air. Personally, I don't care. But you just know there's some little old lady in Pasadena, having a conniption everytime Jamie yells "asshole" like she's suffering from Touret's.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
  60. moron the uncontrollabully incestuoUS 'media' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you need to stop giving them yOUR monIE, 'else, pretty soon, you're not going to like it, or the letters US, either.

    va lairIE/robbIE.fud et ALe should consider their roll carefully. they were given many gifts. they are responding unkindly.

  61. The ILEC's don't have the money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The ILEC's don't have the money to do advanced broadband. They already borrowed it for ISDN and they can't repay it. That's what one panel of telecom financial experts told an IEEE-USA workshop on advanced broadband last June.

    Look at

    http://www.ieeeusa.org/forum/POSITIONS/broadband .h tml

    for the IEEE-USA position statement on advanced broadband that resulted from the workshop and at

    http://www.ieeeusa.org/committees/CCIP/Broadband 03 report.pdf

    for the workshop report.

    In summary, the best way to go is to have the bandwidth owned/controlled by the user or by a common carrier and let content and service providers compete to provide their products.

    The potential bandwidth of advanced broadband (using gigabit ethernet over fiber and compatible wireless) is so great that it drives the marginal cost (the cost for incremental additional use) to nearly zero. Basic economics says the price is driven to the marginal cost unless there is a monopoly. The ILEC's can't make money by providing advanced broadband if there is competition. But the first one in, unless the market is set up properly, could turn out to be an unregulated monopoly.

  62. You can't read? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And yet you understood my post well enough to respond to it, point for point?

    Since you don't know how to read, here's some tips.

    1) Learn to read (yeah, you read correctly). There are people who will teach you for free.
    2) There are hundreds of thousands of news sites on the Net. AOL is but one.
    3) AM radio is your friend. Shortwave radio is an even better friend. This may come as a shock to you, but there are radio stations located outside the USA (gasp!). Here's another amazing fact. You can listen to a lot of these online!

  63. you really want... by zogger · · Score: 1

    ...big brother actually getting to the point of owning and maintaining all the telco and net pipe? Seems like it's bad enough now with them at least having to jump through one or two small hoops in order to monitor. If they OWNED it all? Use your highway and trucks and cars analogy. We'd have the great wall of the US within a month, and you'd need a license to connect to the net, approved hardware with inspections, very limited traffic and a lot of restrictions on what you can and cannot do, what ports, etc, you can use, massive censorship (most likely, toss P2P away almost immediately), and the cost would be higher than it is now, because government needs at least a 50% (something like that, a WAG) higher work force to accomplish similar tasks as private contractors working for profit. You might even need a commercial net-driving (server) license if you were conducting business on the net. yada yada yada.

    I'd have to pass, I prefer just eliminating the local monopolies, I can live with a few more cables on the poles, or line of sight laser relays or microwave relays, or other wireless whatevers. whatever might work and someone feels like going into business with. Investment money is sorta stagnant now too, I think there might be some of it out there before it evaporates as the US buck devalues, get it tied into hardware contracts maybe while it's worth something. At LEAST providing connectivity for a price and maybe on demand content and perhaps VOIP is a legit business idea and model. If current local monopoly A is such and such for such and such, and for only ten bucks (whatever) more I can get twice as much, I'll pop the extra ten clams. In this economy, "mo money" is de king. And HUGE areas of the nation and millions of people still do NOT have any choice of broadband, and millions can't get it at all, except for that on again off again weirdo satellite stuff.

    1. Re:you really want... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you propose to "just eliminat[e] the local monopolies"? Where does your competition magically come from where natural or artificial monopolies exist? Or where there is no service at all?

      Sure, theoretically someone else can run another cable to your home. Then the existing monopoly provider can drop their prices long enough for the new guy to go out of business and POOF you now can buy twice as much capacity from the original company at the old high price.

      Do you have a private and unregulated water provider? And do they have competition?

    2. Re:you really want... by zogger · · Score: 1

      To eliminate them you have to at least make it lawful for them to even compete. A lot of places they simply cannot, even if some new company wanted to come in. That would be a nice start on getting competition going. Why is this wrong again, for people to have some choices? Or for a business to be able to start if they wanted to?

      As to my water, it's a private well. If that for some reason runs out, there's a pond we have. If that goes, there's a year round spring very close by. If that runs out... we're fscked I guess. Have to go a 1/2 mile away to the trout stream. If THAT runs out, it's one of those once every millenia drought deals, or something like that. I would have moved before then.

    3. Re:you really want... by 2short · · Score: 1

      So forget your water, you're unusual (and, I suspect, bullshitting). I'd ask about electricity, but you'd probaly go on about your quaint little windmill. Do you have a private, unregulated road system provider? Do they have competition?

      It only makes sense to run a single road, fiber line, (water and sewer in cities), electrical line to each location. To completely beat the dead horse, these are "natural monopolies". I don't want 50 fiber lines, roads or sewer lines coming to my house. I also don't want the fact that one company owns the local coax to mean that I have to buy my broadband from them despite the fact that they have crappy customer service, and make me pay extra because I don't buy TV from them too. But that's where I am now. I pay through the nose for a bunch of stuff I don't want, but don't have a choice because they control the one little bit I do want (the coax).

      Fiber, like roads, power lines, and sewers, is infrastructure. It should be treated as infrastructure like the rest. i.e. run by a part of the government service, or by companies so comprehensively regulated they might as well be. (My electricity comes from a "private" company, but they understand the deal well enough: the company is named "Public Service")

    4. Re:you really want... by zogger · · Score: 1

      --you are a very rude and obnoxious poster. I don't BS,there is absolutely no need for it, I just discuss various things here on slashdot. And yes, I use alternative energy. We run on solar PV panels here, I've outlined our rigs several times before on slashdot. We also have several fuel generators, the largest being a 3 cylinder diesel that does 12 kw. Our water supply is exactly as stated. We have propane as primary heat source, with wood as a backup. I have both a landline phone I use for web, and a cell for voice, and I have ham radios for emergencies as well. We eat storebought food, as well as having extensive gardens. So what? Maybe some of you urbanites or suburbanites think that is strange, but I can assure you that this is quite normal across the land. Solar is still behind, although I know of two other families local that also use solar, but fuel generators as backups are extremely common, in fact, I cannot think of any neighbors who DON'T have backup power, and everyone here until you get very close to town uses wells. The reason why is that they are needed. Grid supplied power fails several times a year, usually at the worst possible time to lose power, during storms. You don't tell farmers that they will lose their stock, or tell families too bad, you can't have water or lights for days to a week, they'd laugh in your face. You don't tell people "too bad, you use the approved electricity ONLY or you can't have any" and then mandate it by law. People live in the real world, not some slashdot posters fantasy island world. Are you really that unknowing about parts of the united states, actually the bulk of the land mass? Your uncaring part is indisputable, you can read it in your hate filled post, you don't care, but I am amazed at your unknowingness.

      I am failing to understand why desiring, for myself and other millions of people who don't have access to broadband, that the competition be opened up and to not want to rely on some government bureaucracratic run service or mandated corporate fascistic monopoly. Why is this wrong or bad? Competition is somehow evil? This is 2003, I would think it's maybe time that the huge areas of the nation that have no access other than very expensive and buggy satellite broadband service and are being ignored, aren't. It's beyond business decisions in a lot of cases, it's also based on this "law" thing that restricts the right of ways, etc, to some local monopoly who could care less. There's an offer of dsl service here, but you must reside within 2 miles of the nearest switching building, if you don't, it's not available. And even if you can get it, it's a lot more expensive then other prices I have read about here on slashdot that people pay. This is just data, and it's not like there's only a few people in this situation, this is millions and millions and millions of people across the united states. Every single one of my neighbors have computers, but we use staticy phone line dialup. There's a local cable monopoly,in the nearest city, they have exclusivity contracts in the community, but don't bother to offer internet access at all. You see, they have the monopoly, there's no need for them to worry about it. they sell the slow expensive dsl, so they are covered by their contract. The contract has NO END POINT. And this isn't "wilderness" area, this is just plain old very normal rural. I live 20 miles from a walmart, fast food, home depot, etc, it's just not that isolated, merely rural. And I've seen this on slashdot before, from lots of people commenting they are in the same sort of situation, they have NO access whatsoever, and at least 1/2 the problems are the laws are set up to grant local telcos or cable companies exclusive access. Like, when are the phone lines put in back in the 40s going to be "paid off"? They've been riding that economic excuse mule for a long time now. Government issued monopolies are a bad idea, especially with communications. 60 years ago, maybe, now? there is no need any longer, they are stifling innovation, not encouraging it. I wo

    5. Re:you really want... by 2short · · Score: 1

      You have my apologies, I really didn't mean to offend you, and I retract the bullshitting charge. I was just trying to point out that by getting your infratructure (water) by private means, you are atypical. I meant no disrespect to your way of life. I've lived in rural areas. Now I live in a small city. Both have their attractions. I share your dislike of suburbs. If I can see my neighbors house, I want to walk to the grocery store.

      I certainly realize that there are private roads. But do you expect anyone to build a second road alongside the first? Would you want them to? It sounds like you're having trouble getting even one company to close the last mile for high speed data. I don't think you'll get enough to do so for healthy competition. It's hard to get the right-of-ways for cable laying without government help. Verizon didn't. So I think they should share their cables. Is a few extra cables running down the poles bad? No. But why should they share the poles? Six sets of poles is at least a little bad. And it won't happen. Nobody is going to want to pay the extreme costs of cable laying just so that when they're done they can begin an uphill fight against the established carrier. This is why it is called a natural monopoly. It's a market in which a monopoly will naturally form.
      It's a tough question how to handle such situations, but saying "keep the government out, the market solves everything" is not going to do it (IMO). And the government is arleady in it. All those existing cables were run with government support, across public lands. (And frequently across private lands with government coercion of the owners). I think "wire-providing" companies should be restricted from using their monopoly in that market to prevent competion in the "services provided by wire" market. Just like I think operating systems companies should be restricted from preventing competition in the application software market.
      I like competition. I think it's great. But I don't think a completely free market automatically produces it,

  64. What About Democracy? by Popsikle · · Score: 3, Insightful

    While Powell said he values public input on the rules, it ultimately will be of little help in crafting ownership laws that stand up in court. "You don't govern just by polls and surveys," he said. "We have to exercise difficult judgments and abide by the law. If all of our rulemaking was just a case of put them out and take a referendum, things would be a lot easier." - From the Washington Post Article... Isnt that the point of a Democratic Government? We the People, For the People, By The People? Or am I on crack, and thats not the way It it supposed to work!

    1. Re:What About Democracy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure thats how a democratic government is supposed to work but if you look at the history of the united states government we never really tried to be democratic.

      All the democracy crap was mostly just lip service so the poor people would help fight the british.

      It's pretty much always been run by the rich for the rich. People get fed so much propoganda in school and tv they have a tough time accepting it, but that's just the way it is.

    2. Re:What About Democracy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is the point of a democratic government. However the United States is a constitutional republic, not a democracy.

  65. Get real yourself! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You have a bizarre view of the past. During the 1940s, broadcast media in the US was much, much more consolidated than it is now.

    Almost all radio stations were either NBC or CBS affiliates. (Eventually the government split NBC in two to create a new network, ABC.)

    The individual broadcasting stations were owned by newspapers. And don't get the idea that newspapers were controlled local interests -- or have you never heard about Hearst and Pulitzer?

    Fortunately we still have a long way to go before things are as monopolistic as they were then. And thanks to the internet, ordinary people have a voice that they never have had before.

  66. Dean on Media Deregulation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    http://DeanForAmerica.com

    May 27, 2003

    Howard Dean today wrote to FCC Chairman Michael Powell, urging the FCC to
    avoid further deregulation of the American media. The text of the letter:

    Dear Chairman Powell,

    Americans cherish the freedom of the press -- and the diversity of the
    press that ensures they can get access to the truth and to the information
    they need. The Bush Administration may not appreciate that freedom and
    diversity, but they should not tamper with it.

    On June 2nd, the Federal Communications Commission should decide against
    allowing a single company to own multiple television stations, radio
    stations, and newspapers in a single town. The Bush Administration has
    urged the FCC to remove regulations that protect every Americans' right to
    a free press. This latest attempt by the Bush Administration to undermine
    the American ideals enshrined in our Constitution is wrong.

    This deregulation, like so many actions pushed for by the Bush
    administration, would benefit a few at the expense of the rest of us.
    Modifying the ban in most cities on cross-ownership of television and
    radio stations and newspapers will have serious repercussions for every
    American. A similar deregulation of radio, through the 1996
    Telecommunications Act, has resulted in a 30% decline of
    independently-owned radio stations in the United States. This decline has
    reduced Americans' access to local news via radio. According to a May 27
    Bloomberg story, in at least one instance local authorities were delayed
    in broadcasting important emergency information to the local populace
    because the "local" radio station was broadcast from out-of-state.
    Accelerating the disappearance of independent local media by further
    deregulating television and newspaper ownership is the wrong direction for
    this country.

    In my travels around the country, I have discovered that this proposed
    deregulation is one of the foremost issues on peoples' minds. I am asked
    about it everywhere--in small towns in New Hampshire, and in major cities
    across the nation. The American people are concerned about the future of
    their media, and the effect this decision will have on them. Thousands of
    Americans have written the FCC to oppose this rule, and members of
    Congress from both parties have voiced their protest and requested that
    you testify before them on the matter. Yet the FCC appears poised to
    ignore the interests of regular Americans by allowing a few massive
    conglomerates to gobble up our local news sources.

    This proposed deregulation threatens the ideals of America--the ideals of
    openness, free speech, free expression and free discussion, which are the
    backbone of our Constitution and our democracy.

    Therefore, I urge you to take the following actions:

    1) Delay the June 2nd vote by the FCC.

    2) Testify before Congress so that the Representatives of the
    American people can have the opportunity to question the representatives
    of the Bush Administration.

    3) Allow for, and consider, additional public input. The FCC must
    provide sufficient opportunity for public input on a decision that effects
    every American.

    I appreciate your consideration.

    Sincerely,

    Governor Howard Dean, M.D.

  67. So what does it take to roll your own CO? Hrm? by aphor · · Score: 1

    Lets say you wanted to offer ultra-high bandwidth dense-wave-multiplexed multi-gigabit fiber to everyone's house (for argument's sake you're going to sell state-of-the-art connectivity, and the equipment cost isn't a big deal). Say you even got a source for some ATM equipment (like a DSL modem) at commodity prices to put in peoples' homes. What does it cost install a data center for a CO, and what does it cost to run the fiber to peoples' houses, and what does it cost to maintain all of that equipment?

    Seriously, if there is any demand out there for the service in *your* neighborhood, do some homework and figure out what you would have to charge to get your money back in 2, 5, 10, and even 20 years. Then you can shop the idea around and start your own Co-Op. You can include IP telephony service by getting an IP phone PBX that does something telco-ish like a T3 on the PSTN side.

    --
    --- Nothing clever here: move along now...
  68. apples and oranges by Selecter · · Score: 2, Insightful

    On a national level, yes, things were worse than now. On a local level, there were THOUSANDS of local radio station owners. What you are talking about is 3 or 4 companies that own half the radio shows in america, in addition to putting ONLY THEIR OWNED SHOWS on those stations. THAT IS NEW. That did not exist in the old days, while they may have used content that only 4 or 5 companies produced, the stations themselves were owned by thousands of different owners. For you to say that the newspapers owned the radio stations en masse is incorrect. They owned some of them, yes. That does not invalidate my point, which is most of the license holders ( provided they where in the game before 1941 ) got their licenses FOR FREE. And you cant do that now. You cant even get a LPFM license anymore.

  69. The Bush Government is Hostile To Geeks by lysurgon · · Score: 2, Informative

    Good luck getting any real pro-tech stuff passed with Team Bush running the show. These people are the apotheosis of cronyism. In spite of this getting a little media attention, I think the whole thing will go down to the liking of the big corporations (Fox, ClearChannel, Disney, Verizon, etc). The haggling will be over who in the corporate club gets the choice concessions, not over whether "the public" has any rights to be considered.

    If you ask me, government should have a stake in infrastructure to keep costs down and competition open. This consistantly proves to be the best model for entrepreneurial economic success by the most parties. Look at how the national interstate highway system (which costs billions a year to maintain) is such a success, vs the railroad system. I expect nations with nationally supported (and open) tellecommunications infrastructure will weild a significant economic advantage over those which rely on profit-based monopolies/oligargies to move their bits around.

    I would advise slashdotters to get involved in the upcoming political process (the 2004 presidential election) if they care about the future of technology vis-a-vis regulation. To my mind, the only thing that can stop the person-centric information revolution and kill the end-to-end net is crony regulation that will force people to use non-open software on non-open networks to do the important things (e.g. transactions, contracts, digital media, etc).

    Currently I like Howard Dean, who hopefully will be maneuvered into becoming The Internet Candidate. It's an exciting time. Participate!

    1. Re:The Bush Government is Hostile To Geeks by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Um while I'm not a huge supporter of the republican party, I also am not foolish enough to think that a democrat is going to be such a better thing for my interests in tech matters... I watched the Democratic debates & they were a bunch of losers who couldn't stand up for an issue one way or another...

      Unfortunately though no other party or platform would ever get voted in these days... Which is kinda funny since until about the 40's it was unheard of for the USA to have only 2 parties... Often their were 5 or 6... With so much power in only 2 camps & no real differences (lets be honest they will say whatever they think will get them votes these days) between them, it's a buyers market for getting anything passed you want...

      --
      we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
    2. Re:The Bush Government is Hostile To Geeks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess you can thank "The Bush Government" for the DMCA. Oh wait, that was pushed into law on Slick Willy's watch.

    3. Re:The Bush Government is Hostile To Geeks by lysurgon · · Score: 1

      Hmmm... I'm not sure where you're getting your history from. The US has always been a two-party dominated political system. That's the kind of thing our governing structure supports -- as opposed to a multi-party friendly parlimentary system. While the names and the positions of the parties have always been fluid, it's been a bipolar system pretty much since Jefferson and Hamilton squared off on just about every important issue.

      And if you think all politicians are bought and sold and none care about the media regulation issue, I urge you again to take a look at Howard Dean. Everyone wants to get elected and so everyone will say things which they think will futher that end. Dean believes that the truth -- facts -- will get him elected. That's something we should all be able to understand.

  70. The AT&T breakup was wrong by Skapare · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The AT&T breakup was wrong. It was done the wrong way. A breakup was needed. But it wasn't obvious at the time the way the breakup needed to happen. The way it should have been done, which is more clear now, is to totally separate the infrastructure from everything else. And it is still possible to do this now with the coming fiber infrastructure.

    What we need is an infrastructure company that does nothing else but infrastructure. That company would own the infrastructure and the access point facility. But they would not be allowed to be in any level of business beyond that in exchange for having the infrastructure monopoly. They would not provide dialtone. They would not provide IP routing. They would also not provide point to point circuits except to common carrier businesses.

    Every common carrier would pay the same price to have access to the infrastructure. There would be one price for full dark fiber. There would be another price for partial bandwidth on a multiplexed fiber. Homes should have a minimum of 7 fibers, and businesses of course would have more as needed. But 7 is enough for a massive amount of service in today's terms. One fiber can run hundreds of TV channels and gigabits of digital bandwidth.

    The advantage of this split, is it separates the infrastructure monopoly from fair competitive information and communications services, allows choice, and even allows multiple concurrent services. The big money is in the information and communications services, so this will help boost the economy, too. The infrastructure company would be allowed to charge actual costs plus a reasonable profit for a stable long term return on investment.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  71. Washington post owns a lot of media by morcheeba · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's nice to see the washington post for regulation. They've got quite a media empire: 3+ newspapers, newsweek magazine, 6 over-the-air tv stations, a large cable network, Kaplan, and several internet ventures, including part of BrassRing.com

    It's a nice media empire that fits well under the old FCC rules. There is little overlap in the markets served. The tv sations are all in different cities, and the newspapers serve different locations and formats.

    I wish them success in overturning the new fcc rules bought by bush's corporate supporters.

  72. I think this is the point of the Joke/sig. by aepervius · · Score: 1

    This is obviously broken english.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  73. Hmmmm.... by chriso11 · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't it just be Telephone service? Every time I see telephony, I think "phony".

    --
    No, I don't trust in god. He'll have to pay up front, like everybody else.
  74. Sorry... by chriso11 · · Score: 1

    Sorry I don't have any mod points. An excellent post!

    --
    No, I don't trust in god. He'll have to pay up front, like everybody else.
  75. Re:So what if I get to pay for services I don't ge by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

    That's all well and good until Bell convinces your state government to forbid cooperative or city-funded high-speed networks.

    --
    "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
  76. Americorp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It seems like everyday there's a new law which some corporate weasels' influence has tainted. These proposed changes are a blatent slap in the face to the consumer, and I'm sure some executives are laughing their asses off. I'm looking forward to my daily brainwashing from the clearchannel information minister.

  77. Must reply to sig (OT) by corbettw · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    "Even if you do learn to speak correct English, whom are you going to speak it to?"

    Apparently not you, as it should be "...to whom will you speak it?"

    --
    God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
  78. A modest proposal on FTTH by windowpain · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This doesn't answer the main questions posed by the proposed deregulation but here goes.

    If we are to have regulation why not prohibit the company that builds fiber to the home (FTTH) from being an ISP. It would be in the fiber business, not the Internet business. Any and all comers could use the fiber for a fee. AOL, MSN, Earthlink, whomever. All would be served equally by a company that had no axe to grind. No ILECs screwing CLECs and screaming about having to share their infrastructure with competitors.

    --
    Insert witty sig here.
  79. Not just the gov't, the Telco and the taxpayers by jonskerr · · Score: 1

    With AT&T anyway, the gov't said "Will you bring telephone service to _EVERYONE?_ and ATT says "Sure. But only if we can operate as a monopoly." The government, then faced with either getting tight-assed Americans to pony up more taxes to benefit the little guy or create a government-regulated monopoly, decided to go where the blame was least. They created Ma Bell. Now the same thing is going on; Telcos whine and say "we won't built out DSL unless we can operate as a monopoly, after all why should WE have to pay to build all that and not get every penny we can squeeze out of it?"
    Well, folks, SSDD.

    --
    O~ Him that studies revenge keeps his own wounds green. -- Francis Bacon
  80. prepare the worst; hope for the best by haaz · · Score: 1

    IMNSHO, this will be the great privatizing of the profits and socialization of cost, and the nationalization of outfits like Clear Channel. I'm glad I'm starting a new newspaper right now, and I wonder if we'll ever get megaconglomerates trying to take us over. (I doubt it.)

    What this will likely mean in the short-term is that medium-sized media companies such as Lee Enterprises will get bought up, essentially meaning that newspapers will generally recite only one line, which (through an amazing coincidence) will be the same line you hear on TV and/or the radio. That's just my opinion as a slightly informed media activist; I could be wrong.

    It will be interesting to see if there's an upsurge in interest in Indymedia outlets if the FCC votes to allow this. And my feeling is that they will, by a party line, with son-of-Sec. of State General Powell (Michael) giving the key vote allowing it to happen.

    That democracy you thought we had actually has been comatose for some time now. This will shoot it in its paralyzed leg.

    --
    -- haaz.
  81. I wouldn't mind the deregulation if... by Funksaw · · Score: 1

    Here's the thing.

    I wouldn't mind (in the least) de-regulation, if it was *easier* for people to get broadcast licences.

    I mean, think about it. They have to be licenced by the FCC to broadcast, right?

    I wouldn't mind a person having a monopoly on all the broadcasts in an area, if anyone could start one.

    So it's not really de-regulation that we fear, but consolidation.

  82. Japanese FTTH good model by TinBox · · Score: 2, Informative

    The FTTH system used in Japan actually encompasses ISDN, ADSL and FTTH services. It is a very balance system for the LBOC, ISP's big and small, and Consumers. You contract for your FTTH, ADSL or ISDN service with your LBOC and the apporpiate fee is added to your phone bill $9-$40 depending on which service. Then you contract any ISP that is connected to this network $9-$30 depending on your ISP. For an ISP to connect to this nationwide LBOC network is primarily just the cost of the appropriate size circuit between the closest LBOC switching point and the ISP. an Example of this would be my service 100Mbps FTTH LBOC fee- $40, ISP fee- $15 (dynamic IP). LBOC is happy making their cut, ISP is happy because they make their fee without having to invest in traditional expensive items like RAS's, DSLAMS and maintenance. All that equipment is handled by the LBOC. And the consumer has extremely high bandwith connection. If the customer is unhappy with their service due to speeds, lack of or quality of other services ie email etc., they just change providers from the several thousand connected to the LBOC. Really this is not that different than the old 56k model where the LBOC handled the phone line the ISP connected to the phone network via PRI circuit etc. except the ISP can scratch the cost of RAS's.

  83. Thank you, Captain Obvious (N/T) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    N/T

  84. About that political bias I was talking about... by Catbeller · · Score: 1

    http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/05/31/fcc/i ndex.html

    Former FCC chairman: Deregulation is a right-wing power grab

    Reed Hundt says Monday's historic vote is "the culmination of the attack by the right on the media."

    By Eric Boehlert

    May 31, 2003 | The Federal Communications Commission will meet in Washington on Monday for a historic vote on the future of media ownership in the United States. By all accounts, the Republican-dominated commission will ease long-standing rules so that more and more of the nations newspapers and broadcast stations can be concentrated in fewer and fewer hands.

    Underlying that agenda, Clinton-era FCC chairman Reed Hundt sees something more primal unfolding: an extraordinary conservative power grab that could shape the political landscape for generations.

    For all the philosophical conflict over diversity in the media and the efficiency of the free market, Hunt told Salon this week, the vote is really about an alliance of interests between the political right and the corporate media. "Conservatives," he said, "hope ... that the major media will be their friends."

    In today's political and media environment, there's plenty of evidence that those hopes will come true. ABC News recently appointed conservative commentator John Stossel to co-host its primetime magazine "20/20." "These are conservative times...," an ABC source told TV Guide. "The network wants somebody to match the times."

    The FCC's two Democrats have strongly opposed the deregulation measure that's been pushed by current FCC chairman Michael Powell, a close ally of the Bush White House, and public response to the proposal has been heavily opposed. But Hundt's radical critique is all the more striking because he is an establishment lawyer thoroughly versed in the diplomatic niceties of high government office. He attended prep school with Al Gore and law school with Bill Clinton and served as FCC chairman under Clinton from 1993 to 1997. He is now a senior advisor at McKinsey and Co., the international consulting firm.

    The FCC has long had rules regulating media ownership, based on the assumption that the number of broadcast frequencies is limited. The regulations were designed to ensure that radio and television stations remained diverse, independent voices and could withstand predatory conglomerates. But on Monday the FCC is expected to dump those rules.

    A company like the News Corp., owned by conservative world-media mogul Rupert Murdoch, will be able to hold newspapers, television stations and radio stations in the same market. Conglomerates such as the News Corp. (Fox TV, Fox News, Fox Sports, 20th Century Fox Studio, the New York Post, HarperCollins Publishers) and Viacom (CBS, MTV, Paramount Studios and the Infinity radio network), would be allowed to snatch up more and more local TV affiliate stations nationwide. And, critics say, small and medium-size broadcast companies and newspaper publishers will likely be swallowed up by bigger competitors.

    In the telephone interview Wednesday, Hundt warned that the massive media deregulation will exacerbate the dangerously close relationship that's emerged between sprawling U.S. media companies and the government. "If Dwight Eisenhower were alive today," he said, "he'd be warning us about the dangers of the military-industry-media complex."

    During Hundt's term as FCC chairman, the landmark Telecommunications Act of 1996 was passed. As originally drafted by Republicans in Congress, the legislation would have virtually stripped away all media-ownership limits. In the end, Clinton signed into law a compromise version that allowed only the radio industry to be deregulated.

    At the time, Hundt was among the few to warn of the consequences. The new laws would allow "a few companies to buy all the radio licenses in the country," he said then. "I don't believe that's good for this industry or for this country."

    His words proved prophetic. Since

  85. Delay decision. Open public debate by HalInc · · Score: 1

    Mr. President, Senator Feinstein & Congresswoman Pelosi,

    I love my country, but to date my civic participation has been limited to a yearly visit to the polls, until now. The democracy lovin', U.S citizen in me, strongly urges you to delay the expected June 2nd decision on the FCC proposal to lift the ban on cross-ownership of television stations and newspapers. Entreats you to remove the decision making process from the five hands of the commission and deliver it into the arms of the public for general debate.
    An issue that affects so many, cannot be made by so few. Not in the spirit of democracy at any rate.

    I'm finally doing my part in the democratic process. Speaking my opinion on how we ought to govern ourselves. Not on how to be governed, mind you. Please hold up your end of the representative process. Hear my voice.
    Hear our voices. Support "localism, competition and diversity of views".

    Robert Brian Skinner
    San Francisco, CA

    cc: GWB, DF, NP, NYT, IHT, /.

    References:
    http://www.iht.com/articles/97184.h tml
    http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/05/30/1 61725 9&mode=thread&tid=103&tid=149&tid= 99

  86. Clear Channel vs NPR by technoCon · · Score: 1

    You know, there's no diversity of opinion on talk radio. I have the hardest time distinguishing between Rush Limbaugh and Diane Reams. And that Michael Savage sounds sooo much like Fresh Aire.

    I'm not defending Clear Channel. Their music stations have really short play lists. And their play lists play follow-the-leader. I listen to classic rock. Now, how many tunes have the Doobie Brothers played in the last 25 years. Multiply that by the number of other bands over the decades and you have a universe of zillions of tunes. So, how come I hear the same lame tune today that i hated yesterday.

  87. Examples shot down, one at at time. by abulafia · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The post office (USPS). The post office is now an independent business, but coupled to the government. I'm sorry, but I don't feel like having to deal with private companies for that (company A won't deliver to Iowa, it's not profitable, company b only supports packages of this minimum size... yadda yadda).

    Your assertion seems to be that lowest-common-denominator mail delivery paid for by others is something you want. Is that true? Personally, I send things via private carriers, either local bike messangers or Fedex. I've had a lot of problems with USPS mail, including a case of theft by a USPS employee. This is the sort of thing government monopolies encourage. Theft by an employee of Fedex results in a termination of that employee, and some compensation to me. Theft by an employee of a government run monopoly results in nothing for me, an expensive "investigation", and promoting the thief to a point where he can't steal anymore.

    Plus, the USPS has done a great job on combating fraud.

    Sorry, did you want a postal service or a law enforcement agency? There is a difference.

    Environmental Protection. The phrase "The fox guarding the Henhouse" applies to any private company. And I doubt that people who want less government would want the Sierra Club providing this function.

    Hm. You're halfway there. Have you looked at the behavior of, say, the EPA? You'll find the board is loaded with former executives of companies that pollute a lot. Much like how the FAA is loaded with people from airlines. The very existence of an agency that writes rules for a given function ensures that the agency in question is dominated by people who represent the regulated activity. "The fox guarding the Henhouse", indeed.

    Fire and Emergency Services. I can see "Sorry, your insurance doesn't cover this type of emergency - what is your credit card number". Yes, I know some ambulances are run by private companies.

    This still happens. For a long time, I lived in a very rural town in the SW US. When someone's house was on fire, the local fire department first looked up whether or not they'd made "donations" recently. If they hadn't, it took longer to find them. Same with the local hospital. If you think a monopoly run by government fixes this, you're dreaming. You don't even have to go to small towns for this - look at how government officials get preferential treatment for home monitoring, etc. in any city.

    Tax Collection. Sorry, can't trust non-government entities.

    And you trust the IRS?

    I'm not being flip here. They are the collection agency of the government. They have a monopoly on force for collecting whatever is determined appropriate by an arcane process from you. They are judged by how well they do that.

    Military Defense. Sorry, I don't like the idea of private armies. Sounds too feudal to me.

    Perhaps. Current uses of military power would appear to be entirely feudal, but ignore that. The US used to imagine armies to be raised by grave threats, and dispanded thereafter. After WWII, this changed. What exactly was the reason for this? Think about it some.

    --
    I forget what 8 was for.
    1. Re:Examples shot down, one at at time. by Xabraxas · · Score: 0
      Sorry, did you want a postal service or a law enforcement agency? There is a difference.

      Uhhh. What? I hope they're combatting fraud. I hope they're looking out for people. That's why the government runs it and not some corporation who cares about profits and not people.

      Much like how the FAA is loaded with people from airlines.

      False. My roomate works for the FAA. You have to sign an ethics agreement which disallows you from having invovlement with commercial airlines.

      This still happens. For a long time, I lived in a very rural town in the SW US. When someone's house was on fire, the local fire department first looked up whether or not they'd made "donations" recently.

      HAHA. Oh, that wasn't a joke. It sure was funny though. I'd like to see some proof of that. First if you live in a small town you most likely have a volunteer FD. I lived in a town of 18,000 and we had a volunteer department. Those guys don't get paid. They don't care if you donated. They aren't getting paid. I know quite a few fire fighters and all they care about is going to fires. It's exciting, and they have the possiblity to save someone's life. It's actually pretty demeaning to suggest that they would let someone die because of lack of donations. Sounds more like a corporate tactic than a local government tactic. Besides those obvious points, who has the time to look up whether or not someone donated when the alarm goes off. "Woops Johhny died because we wasted too much time looking up his donation status. Woops again! He did donate money last year! Well too late now. His house is already burnt down."

      --
      Time makes more converts than reason
  88. FCC Chairman Michael Powell Interview on NPR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    What would happen if monopolies' funds were allowed to be used to influence public discourse?

    It might get so bad, that you might not even be able to get broadcasts in portable formats. And top-rated news orginizations would have to charge for transcripts. I wonder what the regulators think of that sad state of affairs.

    I hope Powell drops the rule change and goes with a substitute resolution in favor of giving David Stockman unlimited airtime in the wake of the dismissal of Mitch Daniels and Paul O'Niell. You know he and Condi are just on the brink at this point. And can you believe the torture that the Supreme Court just forced Thomas to justify? The revolution will be televised, but more fun to watch on the internet.