Slashdot Mirror
TiVo To Sell Customer Data
camusflage writes "Yahoo has a story that details TiVo's plans to sell customer data to advertisers and broadcasters. While individuals will be anonymous, data will be made available in aggregate form, including ZIP code. The San Jose Mercury News has additional coverage on the news."
No one individuals personal privacy has been violated. So what is the big deal? Hopefully if they can sustain enough income from this, they can drop their monthly fees.
Unless you own your own zip-code (Ted Turner) this does not affect your "rights" in any way.
Unless there's a ZIP code in Wyoming with only one person...I don't see any rights being trampled, here.
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
Nothing to see here. Move along.
Aggregate data is fine, for the most part (obviously, if your consumer base is 5 people, there might be an issue), but for this, I don't see the problem. And I'm a serious privacy advocate...
I'm not shy, I'm stalking my prey
To me this doesn't seem like a big deal. This type of information is a marketing pleb's dream. And it looks like information about you personally would not be viewable. Aggregate is the way we as privacy experts should be pushing as a compromise. This is no big deal. And as someone who has seen how this aggregate data is used with GIS software. Again, I say... Nothing to see, move along. Ted Tschopp
Fantasy remains a human right; we make in our measure and in our derivative mode... -- JRR Tolkien
Finally they might give me the pr0n-commercials and ads I've been waiting for!
Seems like this has been going on since the beginning
__________
Love conquers all... except CANCER
I wish I could say I was surprised, but I'm not. So they're going to sell this information to other people, but I'd like to see it for myself, too. I'd like to know just what they're tracking and how the reports look for the ad agencies buying this stuff.
I wonder if TiVo includes any data like "we know that such-and-such in this zip code makes between 40,000-80,000 a year and has 2.3 kids, etc."
Is there an opt-out feature? Can I keep the anonymous data from getting to TiVo the first place (apart from unplugging the unit)?
I thought they had planned to do this all along.
Either way, it's yet another reason to buy a TiVo instead of building your own (yes, I wrote that correctly). If you're using a TiVo companies will be paying attention to what you watch and potentially using the info to determine what to put on in the future. Build your own and they won't.
You can Opt-Out of the Marketing data collection by calling Customer Care (877-For-TiVo)
Mike
news flash, einstein:
NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR PARTICULAR VIEWING HABITS.
take off your tin-foil hat now.
BilldaCat
...the TV ratings (those Nieslen boxes) were divided by various zones as well. Perhaps not quite as finemasked as this, but I really don't see much of a privacy issue here. As long as they don't start selling subscription data for direct marketing, I wouldn't mind.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
You didn't even read the summary, let alone the article. As long as they do not use any of your personal information, they are not invading your privacy. This is no more invasive than reading web server logfiles.
Give a hand, not a hand-out.
I hope the networks (in addition to the advertisers which will of course snap it up... thank god for keyword 'aggregate') will look at this data as well. I have always thought that I effectively have a Nielson box sitting under my TV, so why shouldn't they take advantage of it? Maybe Firefly would still be on the air with statistics from our Tivo boxes...
std::disclaimer<std::legalese> sig=new std::disclaimer; sig->dump(); delete sig;
Then opt-out - Tivo has always been giving an option to do so. This entire story is a non-issue.
Now mass marketers will think I'm Gay.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
Imagine if you could change the information sent to Tivo so the advertisers thought young teenagers watched "The 700 Club" and retired senior citizens watched MTV. Soon Depends undergarments will advertise during TRL and Trojan condoms will be blasting its ads to conservative republicans. That would be dope.
Just set your box to record lots of stuff that you want "THEM" to think you watch during the night or when you're not at home and there's nothing else that you care about. That way, your pr0n habits will seem like more of a statistical aberration.
John
"The plural of anecdote is not data."
Am I the only one who thinks that the extreme "privacy" fringe is doing a lot to discredit legitimate privacy concerns.
I care if Tivo sells a list of the programs to watch to a local advertiser who will then call me on the phone, bang on my door, or spam me with "special offers just for me." Tivo, in that case, is attempting to act as a middleman in setting up a business relationship that I have no interest in.
I do not care if Tivo sells data about how many people in California, or even my ZIP code, watched Buffy last night.
Now, there are issues with privacy policies; if Tivo has said that they wouldn't do this and then have, they've lied to their customers, and even the most paranoid privacy freak has a right to expect companies to live up their word.
But really, there are enough *very* significant privacy issues today that relate to *government* spying on *individuals* with no probably cause, warrant, etc.
I'm not at all sure that groups, such as "everyone who lives in my ZIP code" are, or should be, entitled to the same level of privacy protection that individuals deserve.
I mean, if I go down to the street corner and count how many people push the "push to cross" button and then sell that data to the people who make "push to cross" buttons, am I somehow violating peoples' privacy? If I do it in 10 cities? 100? Does it matter if I'm incorporated and have employees or not?
I'm willing to hear the other side, and I certainly subscribe to the slippery-slope argument, but for the most part I think this kind of corporate aggregation of data is at most a very minor concern in a world filled with huge privacy issues.
Cheers
-b
Heck, less than that. Web server -statistics-, post amalgamating and tabulating.
;)
So they can tell that three thousand people in your zip code watched American Idol... they're not going to be able to conclusively proove *you* have no taste.
I want the ad moguls and networks to know what I watch, because they might just notice that my viewing habits, like those of many people, are nothing like what they believe them to be.
I don't watch ads. Period. I watch a few good shows, and I ignore the rest.
On a larger scale, my dream would be for the entire system of free-but-with-forced-ad-watching television to fall to pieces. Sure, it might mean the end of television as mass-media, but it would also force a lot of mouth-breathers to do something other than watch TV every night.
Of course, I'm pretty tired right now, so make what you will of the preceding. ^_~
GeekNights!
Late Night Radio for Geeks!
Again I say, Tivo selling the viewing info is a GOOD THING. I am tired of shows I like getting cancelled for lack of Neilson ratings. I've never been nor have I even known a Neilson family. I don't like the fact that someone else is deciding what's good TV and what should be cancelled.
This will broaden the base of input for TV ratings. Another plus, Tivo owners tend to be geekish. This will most likely help the rating and staying power of shows that geeks watch (sci-fi to be specific). Maybe we finally have a fighting chance against inane 30 minute sitcoms and 'reality' TV.
My brother works for TiVo, and they have been planning to do this from the getgo. The idea is that they will be able to target advertising to different customer groups. For example, Ford might buy a 30 second ad spot, on a TV owned by a single man, 25 years old, might display an ad for a Ford Mustang while a TV owned by a family of 5 might show an ad for a minivan. This doesnt seem like a big deal to me, in fact I kind of like the fact that I wont have to sit through as many ads for crap I really am not interested in... I can finally watch the beer and sports car commercials I love so much.
Visualize the world of wine
If they use this information wisely, we all win. Admittedly that's a big if, but if the data is such that they can determine geek viewing habits, we can have more quality geek TV.
HIPAA laws even allow for this. I work in long term care and we group data by regions. We just remove all identifiable data.
This allows us to do trending and catch things that would otherwise be impossible.
Trending is good when it's aggregate data. When the book police come to your door it's bad.
Read the privacy policy. It's been around since TiVo was founded, and nothing in that time has changed.
TiVo has been selling your demographic data for years. Superbowl advertisers bought information from TiVo to see which Brittney Spears commercial got the most replay and in which kinds of households.
This has absolutely nothing to do with an infrigement of rights, as it all strictly adheres to an agreement between customer and provider made fully clear at the time of purchase.
To offset the costs of building and maintaining a complicated system that provides an excellent service to consumers they sell information on their demographics. Anyone wanna tell me how that makes them evil all of a sudden?
Attention deficit disorder is a complicated issue, spanning several major... HEY LET'S GO RIDE BIKES!
You buy a TiVo box for a few hundred, pay a few hundred
more for the subscription that doesn't really pay
for content, just indexing and the privilege of them
not disabling the box that you paid for. All of this in
order to watch commercial-filled television that you
are also paying your sat or cable company even more
money for, all tied up in a DRM wrapper.
Now, they are collecting your stats, your private life
(as collected on the box you paid for, perhaps continually),
and selling it. And people here think it's great because
(at least today) it's not directly tied to your name.
Boy, that TV must be really great stuff.
OSDN is already using your data for their own benefit:
.
OSDN may use accumulated aggregate data for several purposes including, but not limited to, marketing analysis, evaluation of OSDN's services, and business planning.
There is no prohibition against selling it to other parties. So why the cry of wolf ? I'm pretty sure that if someone found aggregate Slashdot information useful, OSDN would be - or is - selling it. And I don't care. Is it a violation of my privacy if some marketing firm studies aggregate customer behavior in a store and discovers that the majority of customers turn right when they enter ? I don't think it is, and that sort of aggregate research is happening all the time.
1. I record shows for the kids and History/Discovery channel stuff for myself. A few network shows here and there, and once in awhile, a little T&A off the cable channels. Naughty, but not really embarassing. If this gets "reported" I can live with it. However, it's broken down by zip code, so I don't have many concerns. Plus, if it shows that I really like well thought out, witty commercials (there are some out there), basically advertainment and not mindless ads, and this creates better advertainment for me, is this not a good thing?
2. TiVo could become more relevant that Neilsen data. Imagine, they can break down for networks what was recorded vs. what was actually watched, when it was watched, and what commercials were watched while viewing. Combine this with the fact (here's where TiVo shareholder's laugh with glee) that I will PAY THEM to LET THEM track this data, and be happy to do so, it's a win win for the company and the consumer.
TiVo truly does put one in control of their viewing. If they want to gather a little data, virtually anonymously, fine by me.
Partridge Family fan and then I'll be a target for the next layoff and then I'll be laid off and then I'll lose my house and then my wife will leave me and then I'll get beat up at the rescue mission over a bottle of MD20-20 and then they'll put impants in my brain at the emergency room and then the CIA will transmit orders to me through PBS and then I'll have to wear aluminum foil on my head all the time and then that won't matter because while I am laying in the gutter on skid row George W. Bush and Dick Cheney will send a UFO to abduct me and then I'll get probed (ouch) and then the aliens will clone me and then the clone will take over my old life and then I'll be a slave in the methane mines on Altair IV and then I'll get spaced by a slorg monster and then I'll die. All because of Tivo.
(I posted this to Usenet a while back, but since the privacy hysteria is starting again, I thought I would outline the threat as seen by some.)
Actually there IS an opt-out feature.
The reason TiVo subscriptions are not more is exactly because of this business plan. They plan on making most of their money through selling focused advertising. TiVo has not been making a whole hell of a lot of money, and this is strategy is aimed at changing that. Essentially you have been getting a kickback since you signed up for TiVo since you have been paying a reduced subscription fee to TiVo as they have long planned to begin this advertising campaign.
Visualize the world of wine
Two major things to point out to those who will complain about the invasion of privacy: 1) Tivo says the info will be anonymous, and I believe them as that is all networks and advertisers are interested in anyway. 2) Tivo does allow you to opt-out from even anonymous data collection if you call up their customer service number.
I like it because I think it will show several interesting things about viewing habits. I think they will find that quality shows tend to have more loyal viewers than cheaper programming. I think they will also find that Tivo owners *do* watch some commercials, and that commercials are much more likely to be watched if they are *good*. I would hope than advertisers are smarter than we give them credit for, and I expect they won't mind, for example, if men fast forward past commercials for women's products.
They are clearly stating that they are not going down to a single person... so there is no issue here.
in fact, all that can happen from this is a) increase revenue/profits for a kick-ass outfit like TiVo (we're still sorta in a capitalist society here, aren't we?) b) reduce my bill.
Both are a win.
Hell, if they wanted to identify it down to me (Nielsen?) and charge me nothing for the service.. i'd be up for that.
but that's me. If you'd not be down with that, then they should not have any right to do that.
and since they are not, this is a GOOD news story, not a BAD news story.
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
If the TiVo viewing data really gets distributed there will be MUCH better ratings for /. TV like Star Trek(s), Red Dwarf, Blackadder, The Office, Buffy,... and the stuff on TechTV and the Sci-Fi channel.
Nerd viewing habits will be a force to be reckoned with.
Don't write letters to networks and advertisers - VOTE for your favorite shows with your TiVo!
Ever dream you could fly? Get up from the Flight Sim. I Fly
I am completely stunned. I am hearing lines such as "It's aggregate data, so who cares."
If you replaced the word "Tivo" with "Microsoft," I swear there would be a posse forming in some thread on this comments page as we speak to go down to their corporate HQ and burn every copy of XP they received with their PCs.
I can just picture a story "Microsoft to track aggregate data on what mp3s people are listening to through a hook in Media Player in its latest software update."
Do you picture replies saying "Well, if it maybe helps lower the price of the next OS release $15, I'm all for it." In all seriousness, can you picture replies like that on Slashdot?
Why is Tivo given the benefit of the doubt? Is it just because it's such a geek-chic tool? Is it just a couple talking heads trying to fill a meme of "No no, it's aggregate, it's cool?"
Tivo is making money as it is. If they do this, your subscription rates WILL NOT go down. You WILL NOT see better programming on tv as a result. You WILL NOT be able to resurrect your favourite show from Tivo data vs Nielsen data because Nielsen data is multi-tiered (It's not just a box they track, people fill in journals and other things).
On top of that, the data they're getting is not "global" data, it represents the data taken from households where either a) expendable income is high, or b) expendable income is not high, but someone living there is a techie.
What do you hope to gain from this? More directed ads? Didn't most of you people get a Tivo to skip the ads in the first place?
Mod that up. I hope that TiVo sells its data, because then some people who lack cluesticks might suddenly get one. I want TV execs to know that I watch shows like Babylon 5, Star Trek, stuff on TechTV, and so on. But so far, most of what they give us is "The Golden Girls" in a thousand different variants. Anything that lets someone know what I personally watch is a good thing.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Actually, TiVo reporting the aggregate viewing statistics was a *compelling feature* of the service to me. I HATE (repeat after me, HATE) the Nielsen's. I do not believe 6,000 homes accurately reflects the television viewership of this nation, especially when it depends on those people sitting down and logging their viewing experience in a journal. There have been far too many good television shows cancelled because the Nielsen "families" didn't watch it or chose to record it on their VCRs. There are 700,000 + TiVo subscribers versus 6,000 Nielsen homes. You tell me which one will have better statistics. Even if the Nielsens actually represent a larger overall base of the American market, the TiVo subscribers will actually represent the groups advertisers want to reach anyway (tech savvy Gen X and Gen Y, and babyboomers with money). Now if I could just do a total "thumbs down" to all of Cal Worthington's ads I'd be a happy camper...
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
Mr. Iwanyk, 32 years old, first suspected that his TiVo thought he was gay, since it inexplicably kept recording programs with gay themes. A film studio executive in Los Angeles and the self-described "straightest guy on earth," he tried to tame TiVo's gay fixation by recording war movies and other "guy stuff."
"The problem was, I overcompensated," he says. "It started giving me documentaries on Joseph Goebbels and Adolf Eichmann. It stopped thinking I was gay and decided I was a crazy guy reminiscing about the Third Reich."
Not so sure the Tivo data is worth much.
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
"96.3 percent of our subscribers skip commercials."
Oops.
paintball
"Aggregate" data by 5-digit zip code is not enough to personally identify you. It's like watching log-ins by IP address. You get liumped with everybody else who was watching Smallville or Buffy reruns.
Marketing is ESSENTIAL to support broadcast TV as we know it. Someone has to pay for all those production costs, and right now it is the advertisers. I like it that way. TIVO and other time-shifting technologies scare advertisers and TV producers because they see costs rising and revenues dwindling.
Companies waste a lot of money on advertising because they don't know what commercials "work" (or are at least watched). If they could get fast feedback, maybe the really stupid and pointless commercials would go away faster. If they could get better at spotting what ads are getting viewed/skipped on what shows, maybe the shows wouldn't go away for lack of advertisers.
I love the "I paid more for it so it must be better" effect. My favorite example (outside of IT purchasing practices) was a weight loss formula sold on TV. Their main justification for charging $150/bottle was that you wouldn't pay that if it didn't work. Nice and circular argument, and I suspect lost on the public. And obviously they find suckers.
I expect, as you state, it's similar for newspapers and their advertisers, so they charge a token cost at the newsstand.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
The same demographics that buy tivos are the ones not targetted well by ads or tv shows (imo). And honestly Id like more programming that targets ME, and I wouldnt mind ads for things I would want to buy.
Lets see more shows like farscape, firefly, who's line is it anyway, futurama, etc.
Sleep is for the weak.
. . . they're sampling the programs that are being recorded. Record your favorite shows! Even if you're watching them live! If they would have sold this data last year we could have saved Firefly, Futurama, and Farscape.
"We shall party like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean." - HedonismBot
The problem with Tivo still remains that although they make 'anonymity' noises now, they can de-anonymize any time they choose. Right now, the user base is ramping up, and so Tivo is very careful not to upset people. When the user base is steady, the situation is likely to be different.
n t.asp?id=62&type=0
I will only belive Tivo's privacy posture if the data is stored anonymously as opposed to simply used anonymously. The only reason they can possibly have to store user data now is because they are effectively reserving the right to de-anonymize later for business purposes.
There is much info on Tivo privacy; one link is http://www.privacyfoundation.org/privacywatch/pri
As a last point, the UK Data Protection Act insists the people-data databases declare data use on forming. If the data use is changed (eg info can now be sold, before not so) then the historical data must be scrapped. That theoretically protects against data misuse by collecting under false pretenses, or complete about turns on privacy statements that have happening in USA.
While I have no objection to Tivo selling aggregate data to marketers by ZIP code (at least as long as it's only the 5-digit code), the fact that they can collect the data at all is problematic. All it takes now under the US Patriot Act is a simple request by a government agency for a surreptitious record of an individual's viewing habits. Under the proposed Total Information Awareness program, the viewing habits of every Tivo subscriber would automatically be transmitted to the government.
If you're seriously concerned about it, figure out the format of the data Tivo sends in (some Tivo hacker may have already done it for you), interpose an old computer with Linux between it and the phone line, and filter out the stuff you don't want it to send in. Or if you're really adept, perhaps you could find a way to insert a filter program in the Tivo itself, and save the extra hardware. After seeing what Tivo hackers have done in the past, I have to think either of these approaches is possible.