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TiVo To Sell Customer Data
camusflage writes "Yahoo has a story that details TiVo's plans to sell customer data to advertisers and broadcasters. While individuals will be anonymous, data will be made available in aggregate form, including ZIP code. The San Jose Mercury News has additional coverage on the news."
No one individuals personal privacy has been violated. So what is the big deal? Hopefully if they can sustain enough income from this, they can drop their monthly fees.
Unless you own your own zip-code (Ted Turner) this does not affect your "rights" in any way.
Unless there's a ZIP code in Wyoming with only one person...I don't see any rights being trampled, here.
Healthcare article at Kuro5hin
Nothing to see here. Move along.
Aggregate data is fine, for the most part (obviously, if your consumer base is 5 people, there might be an issue), but for this, I don't see the problem. And I'm a serious privacy advocate...
I'm not shy, I'm stalking my prey
To me this doesn't seem like a big deal. This type of information is a marketing pleb's dream. And it looks like information about you personally would not be viewable. Aggregate is the way we as privacy experts should be pushing as a compromise. This is no big deal. And as someone who has seen how this aggregate data is used with GIS software. Again, I say... Nothing to see, move along. Ted Tschopp
Fantasy remains a human right; we make in our measure and in our derivative mode... -- JRR Tolkien
Finally they might give me the pr0n-commercials and ads I've been waiting for!
Seems like this has been going on since the beginning
__________
Love conquers all... except CANCER
I wish I could say I was surprised, but I'm not. So they're going to sell this information to other people, but I'd like to see it for myself, too. I'd like to know just what they're tracking and how the reports look for the ad agencies buying this stuff.
I wonder if TiVo includes any data like "we know that such-and-such in this zip code makes between 40,000-80,000 a year and has 2.3 kids, etc."
Is there an opt-out feature? Can I keep the anonymous data from getting to TiVo the first place (apart from unplugging the unit)?
And at the same time they release this.
KARMA TAG! You're it.
I thought they had planned to do this all along.
Either way, it's yet another reason to buy a TiVo instead of building your own (yes, I wrote that correctly). If you're using a TiVo companies will be paying attention to what you watch and potentially using the info to determine what to put on in the future. Build your own and they won't.
You can Opt-Out of the Marketing data collection by calling Customer Care (877-For-TiVo)
Mike
news flash, einstein:
NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR PARTICULAR VIEWING HABITS.
take off your tin-foil hat now.
BilldaCat
Indivudually your viewing habbits are worth nothing to the company that buys the information. The only thing that they care about is "what is the most viewed show?" Why would a company look and see: ooohhh John is watching Survivor, we should have a comercial then. We're not talking about credit card information here, i don't like what an outcry privacy advocates are making over the small stuff like this.
...the TV ratings (those Nieslen boxes) were divided by various zones as well. Perhaps not quite as finemasked as this, but I really don't see much of a privacy issue here. As long as they don't start selling subscription data for direct marketing, I wouldn't mind.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
You didn't even read the summary, let alone the article. As long as they do not use any of your personal information, they are not invading your privacy. This is no more invasive than reading web server logfiles.
Give a hand, not a hand-out.
The more junk mail we get, the better -- we can line all the cages and not feel guilty about wasting paper!
And why do we have Tivo in the store?
Animal Planet, baby!!! :-)
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.
I could have sworn that TiVo did this already. I can only see it as a good thing though especially since some of my favorite new shows (John Doe) were canceled and reality crap is still going strong. TiVo doing this is a good alternative to nielson ratings IMHO.
-- "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" -Optimus Prime
I hope the networks (in addition to the advertisers which will of course snap it up... thank god for keyword 'aggregate') will look at this data as well. I have always thought that I effectively have a Nielson box sitting under my TV, so why shouldn't they take advantage of it? Maybe Firefly would still be on the air with statistics from our Tivo boxes...
std::disclaimer<std::legalese> sig=new std::disclaimer; sig->dump(); delete sig;
They don't have access to your TV viewing habits. They have access to your zip code's TV viewing habits, which happens to include you. This should hardly upset you, as it doesn't really concern you, as an individual.
When people cry over the spilt milk that is privacy invasion, I often wonder why they make such a fuss. If a company is selling data about thousands or millions of its customers to a third party, individuality is lost as the advertisers etc. want data in bulk.
I wouldn't care if my viewing details were whizzed off to some number crunching machine somewhere because at the end of the day I have nothing to hide (although if, hypothetically of course, I were watching too much Will and Grace I might be keeping something in the closet, as it were)
Mother, do you think they'll like this sig?
Then opt-out - Tivo has always been giving an option to do so. This entire story is a non-issue.
Now mass marketers will think I'm Gay.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
Imagine if you could change the information sent to Tivo so the advertisers thought young teenagers watched "The 700 Club" and retired senior citizens watched MTV. Soon Depends undergarments will advertise during TRL and Trojan condoms will be blasting its ads to conservative republicans. That would be dope.
Just set your box to record lots of stuff that you want "THEM" to think you watch during the night or when you're not at home and there's nothing else that you care about. That way, your pr0n habits will seem like more of a statistical aberration.
John
"The plural of anecdote is not data."
Am I the only one who thinks that the extreme "privacy" fringe is doing a lot to discredit legitimate privacy concerns.
I care if Tivo sells a list of the programs to watch to a local advertiser who will then call me on the phone, bang on my door, or spam me with "special offers just for me." Tivo, in that case, is attempting to act as a middleman in setting up a business relationship that I have no interest in.
I do not care if Tivo sells data about how many people in California, or even my ZIP code, watched Buffy last night.
Now, there are issues with privacy policies; if Tivo has said that they wouldn't do this and then have, they've lied to their customers, and even the most paranoid privacy freak has a right to expect companies to live up their word.
But really, there are enough *very* significant privacy issues today that relate to *government* spying on *individuals* with no probably cause, warrant, etc.
I'm not at all sure that groups, such as "everyone who lives in my ZIP code" are, or should be, entitled to the same level of privacy protection that individuals deserve.
I mean, if I go down to the street corner and count how many people push the "push to cross" button and then sell that data to the people who make "push to cross" buttons, am I somehow violating peoples' privacy? If I do it in 10 cities? 100? Does it matter if I'm incorporated and have employees or not?
I'm willing to hear the other side, and I certainly subscribe to the slippery-slope argument, but for the most part I think this kind of corporate aggregation of data is at most a very minor concern in a world filled with huge privacy issues.
Cheers
-b
Heck, less than that. Web server -statistics-, post amalgamating and tabulating.
;)
So they can tell that three thousand people in your zip code watched American Idol... they're not going to be able to conclusively proove *you* have no taste.
I want the ad moguls and networks to know what I watch, because they might just notice that my viewing habits, like those of many people, are nothing like what they believe them to be.
I don't watch ads. Period. I watch a few good shows, and I ignore the rest.
On a larger scale, my dream would be for the entire system of free-but-with-forced-ad-watching television to fall to pieces. Sure, it might mean the end of television as mass-media, but it would also force a lot of mouth-breathers to do something other than watch TV every night.
Of course, I'm pretty tired right now, so make what you will of the preceding. ^_~
GeekNights!
Late Night Radio for Geeks!
IOW - I'm paying TiVo for the privalege of giving them valuable market information that they sell for almost pure profit.
Am I missing something?
"Stop whining!" - Arnold, as Mr. Kimble
Again I say, Tivo selling the viewing info is a GOOD THING. I am tired of shows I like getting cancelled for lack of Neilson ratings. I've never been nor have I even known a Neilson family. I don't like the fact that someone else is deciding what's good TV and what should be cancelled.
This will broaden the base of input for TV ratings. Another plus, Tivo owners tend to be geekish. This will most likely help the rating and staying power of shows that geeks watch (sci-fi to be specific). Maybe we finally have a fighting chance against inane 30 minute sitcoms and 'reality' TV.
My brother works for TiVo, and they have been planning to do this from the getgo. The idea is that they will be able to target advertising to different customer groups. For example, Ford might buy a 30 second ad spot, on a TV owned by a single man, 25 years old, might display an ad for a Ford Mustang while a TV owned by a family of 5 might show an ad for a minivan. This doesnt seem like a big deal to me, in fact I kind of like the fact that I wont have to sit through as many ads for crap I really am not interested in... I can finally watch the beer and sports car commercials I love so much.
Visualize the world of wine
to some crafty politician who will realize that people like me exist in his/her region and get pissed off when Large companies rights trample my own, again and again.....
I went to battle MC Escher but drew a blank
If they use this information wisely, we all win. Admittedly that's a big if, but if the data is such that they can determine geek viewing habits, we can have more quality geek TV.
HIPAA laws even allow for this. I work in long term care and we group data by regions. We just remove all identifiable data.
This allows us to do trending and catch things that would otherwise be impossible.
Trending is good when it's aggregate data. When the book police come to your door it's bad.
Read the privacy policy. It's been around since TiVo was founded, and nothing in that time has changed.
TiVo has been selling your demographic data for years. Superbowl advertisers bought information from TiVo to see which Brittney Spears commercial got the most replay and in which kinds of households.
This has absolutely nothing to do with an infrigement of rights, as it all strictly adheres to an agreement between customer and provider made fully clear at the time of purchase.
To offset the costs of building and maintaining a complicated system that provides an excellent service to consumers they sell information on their demographics. Anyone wanna tell me how that makes them evil all of a sudden?
Attention deficit disorder is a complicated issue, spanning several major... HEY LET'S GO RIDE BIKES!
I corrected my self...but it would be nice IF a politician WOULD seal my info
I went to battle MC Escher but drew a blank
Remember, this is TiVo we're talking about. You'll be getting gay pr0n commercials!
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
You buy a TiVo box for a few hundred, pay a few hundred
more for the subscription that doesn't really pay
for content, just indexing and the privilege of them
not disabling the box that you paid for. All of this in
order to watch commercial-filled television that you
are also paying your sat or cable company even more
money for, all tied up in a DRM wrapper.
Now, they are collecting your stats, your private life
(as collected on the box you paid for, perhaps continually),
and selling it. And people here think it's great because
(at least today) it's not directly tied to your name.
Boy, that TV must be really great stuff.
I am a data FIEND. I LOVE data, I love varied data, good data, bad data, random data, and wierd data. I like playing with it, and running stats on it and basically just wallowing in it.
So frankly, pretty much any data collection gets my approval, as long as anonymity is preserved. Really, the specific data is the least useful. Who cares what one guy does? There is no reason to collect that data except for the express purpose of violating someones privacy. Now tell me what every guy between 20 and 30 is doing, and I'll be frickin ecstatic.
Just my opinion.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
Given this morning's FCC vote, there's soon to only be one media company, anyway. Then, all Rupert Murdock would have to do is buy Tivo. This just saves everyone time and money...
If this were easy, they wouldn't need us to do it!
OSDN is already using your data for their own benefit:
.
OSDN may use accumulated aggregate data for several purposes including, but not limited to, marketing analysis, evaluation of OSDN's services, and business planning.
There is no prohibition against selling it to other parties. So why the cry of wolf ? I'm pretty sure that if someone found aggregate Slashdot information useful, OSDN would be - or is - selling it. And I don't care. Is it a violation of my privacy if some marketing firm studies aggregate customer behavior in a store and discovers that the majority of customers turn right when they enter ? I don't think it is, and that sort of aggregate research is happening all the time.
"we have x number of customers inthis zip code and here are the zipcodes viewing statistics......
so damn what...as long as my address is not included I see no problem.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
1. I record shows for the kids and History/Discovery channel stuff for myself. A few network shows here and there, and once in awhile, a little T&A off the cable channels. Naughty, but not really embarassing. If this gets "reported" I can live with it. However, it's broken down by zip code, so I don't have many concerns. Plus, if it shows that I really like well thought out, witty commercials (there are some out there), basically advertainment and not mindless ads, and this creates better advertainment for me, is this not a good thing?
2. TiVo could become more relevant that Neilsen data. Imagine, they can break down for networks what was recorded vs. what was actually watched, when it was watched, and what commercials were watched while viewing. Combine this with the fact (here's where TiVo shareholder's laugh with glee) that I will PAY THEM to LET THEM track this data, and be happy to do so, it's a win win for the company and the consumer.
TiVo truly does put one in control of their viewing. If they want to gather a little data, virtually anonymously, fine by me.
Initially i thought that this was a good thing. If a bunch of geeks like me are out there watching the same shows as I am and those numbers are being represented to the stations then maybe I wouldn't have to start watching a show, think it's good, and then wonder what happened to it (firefly).
However, should the stations use this information in the same manner as they use the neilson stuff (which I assume is regulated in distribution somehow) then what's to keep some production company from buying a bunch of Tivos and having them record their shows, or paying Tivo users to record and play a show (not necessarily watch it). say for 5 bucks, record a show and play it while your taking a nap or something.
So I am both interested and worried. But for the most part, I think it would take a large number of cheaters to offset that of the legitimate watchers.
Troy
Comments by many people here state that this isn't an invasion of privacy because TiVo only tells the zipcode. While normally I would agree, these same people howl whenever they hear about spyware. If you have a problem with spyware that claims that it does not give away personally identifiable information, then why don't you have a problem with this (assuming the spyware license doesn't lie. For all you know, they could be telling the truth, despite their shady nature)? I realize that spyware has many other issues as well (eating up your bandwidth and resources) but most of the complaints seem to come from the invasion of privacy that people feel.
Hopefully mods will see past the topic before modding me down...
TiVo has been saying they're doing to do this for years now. It's always been planned to do this by zip code with no names. Yeah, it's really going to suck. They're (The networks) are going to figure out what we like and make MORE OF IT! Yeah, we're screwed over on this one, alright.
TiVo users are probably very heavily in the tech. industry. That means our shows are probably pretty similar. Family Guy, Futurama, John Doe (maybe), The Agency... Seeing a pattern here? Shows that were cancelled. Maybe we can balance out the Neilson ratings. They use, what? 4000 families for the whole country?
I had a sucky sig.
Privacy !!!!
This is an excellent example why we need a constitutional right to privacy. The authors of the Bill of Rights could NEVER have forseen the advent of information technology and it's profound implications.
Companies are OUT OF CONTROL regarding what they do with are personal information. They should be made to keep it PRIVATE, and be held liable for damages if they release it without permission.
-------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
Partridge Family fan and then I'll be a target for the next layoff and then I'll be laid off and then I'll lose my house and then my wife will leave me and then I'll get beat up at the rescue mission over a bottle of MD20-20 and then they'll put impants in my brain at the emergency room and then the CIA will transmit orders to me through PBS and then I'll have to wear aluminum foil on my head all the time and then that won't matter because while I am laying in the gutter on skid row George W. Bush and Dick Cheney will send a UFO to abduct me and then I'll get probed (ouch) and then the aliens will clone me and then the clone will take over my old life and then I'll be a slave in the methane mines on Altair IV and then I'll get spaced by a slorg monster and then I'll die. All because of Tivo.
(I posted this to Usenet a while back, but since the privacy hysteria is starting again, I thought I would outline the threat as seen by some.)
Who needs Neilson when we have Tivo?
I am absolutely serious. That is the data Tivo needs to be selling.
Keep passing the open windows...
Actually there IS an opt-out feature.
From usps.com
Q. Why are ZIP+4 Codes used?
A. In 1983, the Postal Service began using an expanded ZIP Code called "ZIP+4." A ZIP+4 Code consists of the original 5-digit ZIP Code plus a 4-digit add-on code. The 4-digit add-on number identifies a geographic segment within the 5-digit delivery area, such as a city block, office building, individual high-volume receiver of mail, or any other unit that would aid efficient mail sorting and delivery. Use of the 4-digit add-on is not mandatory, but it helps the Postal Service direct mail more efficiently and accurately because it reduces handling and significantly decreases the potential for human error and possibility of misdelivery. It also will lead to better control over USPS costs and, in turn, postage rate stability. ZIP+4 is intended for use primarily by business mailers who prepare their mail with typewritten, machine-printed, or computerized addressing formats that can be read by the Postal Service's automated scanners during processing. Mailers who qualify receive a rate discount on First-Class, non-presorted, ZIP+4 mailings of at least 250 pieces and on presorted ZIP+4 mailings of at least 500 pieces. There are also ZIP+4 discounts for bulk business mail.
Attention deficit disorder is a complicated issue, spanning several major... HEY LET'S GO RIDE BIKES!
For years and years I've often thought the Neilson families either hand picked to reflected the desired outcome or spent too much time in front of the microwave. I'm well versed in statistics, but I think that the small subset, and heavy weighting tends to short sell a lot of shows that actually have good viewership (read: the shows I like)
I think this may be an opportunity for a larger dataset to be weighed as networks and advertisers analyze the successfulness of a given show.
As for privacy, I don't really see a problem so long as it is an agregate, but then who knows when that will change.
I do love my tivo, though.
If I'm changing the channel, obviously I am watching TV, but I leave my TiVo on all of the time, is the channel I'm watching last going to get a boost because I left my TiVo on all night?
My other sig is extremely clever...
Yes, but I have a feeling it will affect the resale value of my property. Can I get the homeowner's association to draft up some rules on viewing habits now?
Sincerely,
A Concerned NIMBY
I tried every decent and legal way I could think of to resolve the issue w/the business before I rented the chicken suit
Two major things to point out to those who will complain about the invasion of privacy: 1) Tivo says the info will be anonymous, and I believe them as that is all networks and advertisers are interested in anyway. 2) Tivo does allow you to opt-out from even anonymous data collection if you call up their customer service number.
I like it because I think it will show several interesting things about viewing habits. I think they will find that quality shows tend to have more loyal viewers than cheaper programming. I think they will also find that Tivo owners *do* watch some commercials, and that commercials are much more likely to be watched if they are *good*. I would hope than advertisers are smarter than we give them credit for, and I expect they won't mind, for example, if men fast forward past commercials for women's products.
They are clearly stating that they are not going down to a single person... so there is no issue here.
in fact, all that can happen from this is a) increase revenue/profits for a kick-ass outfit like TiVo (we're still sorta in a capitalist society here, aren't we?) b) reduce my bill.
Both are a win.
Hell, if they wanted to identify it down to me (Nielsen?) and charge me nothing for the service.. i'd be up for that.
but that's me. If you'd not be down with that, then they should not have any right to do that.
and since they are not, this is a GOOD news story, not a BAD news story.
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
Right.
You have 100 hours of archived Dr. Phil, and you don't think that's embarassing?
If the TiVo viewing data really gets distributed there will be MUCH better ratings for /. TV like Star Trek(s), Red Dwarf, Blackadder, The Office, Buffy,... and the stuff on TechTV and the Sci-Fi channel.
Nerd viewing habits will be a force to be reckoned with.
Don't write letters to networks and advertisers - VOTE for your favorite shows with your TiVo!
Ever dream you could fly? Get up from the Flight Sim. I Fly
news flash, einstein:
NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR PARTICULAR VIEWING HABITS.
Just because no one cares about einstein's viewing habits does not mean this is a tin-foil subject. Lots of very rich people have TiVos. Lots of people in the entertainment industry. Lots of government officials (like Powell, the chief of the FCC). Lots of captains of industry. I would think their viewing habits (down to the exact key press on the remote) WOULD be of interest to certain individuals. With that level of detail on viewing habits (e.g. what scenes DOES he repeatedly re-view in his pron) a psychologist could come up with some VERY interesting insights.
It's kind of like encryption. No one cares about what Joe Sixpack's emails are. But there are plenty of people who DO need privacy and DO need encryption and they DO NOT wear tin-foil hats.
Mod down people who tell people how to mod in their sigs
Why? As any of you ever wanted to be polled by Nielsen and other stats companies? I believe Tivo will be able to make stats better than Nielsen boxes especially when people leave the TV open even when they do not watch. I welcome the fact that advertisers will see that I thumbed down 'John (douchbag) Edwards crossing over' and regularly watch StargateSg1 or the Discovery chanel... I wish everything I watch and thumbs up or down was actually used by these stats companies so they can get rid of crap shows (like edward's)
"TiVo knows that I make more than $155.88/year, but I haven't given them an indication of how much more."
:)
That isn't even a guaranteed number.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
I am completely stunned. I am hearing lines such as "It's aggregate data, so who cares."
If you replaced the word "Tivo" with "Microsoft," I swear there would be a posse forming in some thread on this comments page as we speak to go down to their corporate HQ and burn every copy of XP they received with their PCs.
I can just picture a story "Microsoft to track aggregate data on what mp3s people are listening to through a hook in Media Player in its latest software update."
Do you picture replies saying "Well, if it maybe helps lower the price of the next OS release $15, I'm all for it." In all seriousness, can you picture replies like that on Slashdot?
Why is Tivo given the benefit of the doubt? Is it just because it's such a geek-chic tool? Is it just a couple talking heads trying to fill a meme of "No no, it's aggregate, it's cool?"
Tivo is making money as it is. If they do this, your subscription rates WILL NOT go down. You WILL NOT see better programming on tv as a result. You WILL NOT be able to resurrect your favourite show from Tivo data vs Nielsen data because Nielsen data is multi-tiered (It's not just a box they track, people fill in journals and other things).
On top of that, the data they're getting is not "global" data, it represents the data taken from households where either a) expendable income is high, or b) expendable income is not high, but someone living there is a techie.
What do you hope to gain from this? More directed ads? Didn't most of you people get a Tivo to skip the ads in the first place?
Mod that up. I hope that TiVo sells its data, because then some people who lack cluesticks might suddenly get one. I want TV execs to know that I watch shows like Babylon 5, Star Trek, stuff on TechTV, and so on. But so far, most of what they give us is "The Golden Girls" in a thousand different variants. Anything that lets someone know what I personally watch is a good thing.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
If the individual stats remain annonymous why would people opt out if the net result is that TiVo goes out of business and you are stuck with a box with no service. I personaly don't care and to be honest I thought they were doing this all along.
-- Thou hast strayed far from the path of the Avatar.
An open source project called MythTB really rocks!
You should check it out! www.mythtv.org
And.. I built one!
The trend has already started. The media are already interweaving content and promotion. Soon there may be no commercials to skip over.
Actually, TiVo reporting the aggregate viewing statistics was a *compelling feature* of the service to me. I HATE (repeat after me, HATE) the Nielsen's. I do not believe 6,000 homes accurately reflects the television viewership of this nation, especially when it depends on those people sitting down and logging their viewing experience in a journal. There have been far too many good television shows cancelled because the Nielsen "families" didn't watch it or chose to record it on their VCRs. There are 700,000 + TiVo subscribers versus 6,000 Nielsen homes. You tell me which one will have better statistics. Even if the Nielsens actually represent a larger overall base of the American market, the TiVo subscribers will actually represent the groups advertisers want to reach anyway (tech savvy Gen X and Gen Y, and babyboomers with money). Now if I could just do a total "thumbs down" to all of Cal Worthington's ads I'd be a happy camper...
"Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
> You trusted the fox.
Everyone is a "Fox," but you have to choose which ones you distrust the least to be in your pack.
Mr. Iwanyk, 32 years old, first suspected that his TiVo thought he was gay, since it inexplicably kept recording programs with gay themes. A film studio executive in Los Angeles and the self-described "straightest guy on earth," he tried to tame TiVo's gay fixation by recording war movies and other "guy stuff."
"The problem was, I overcompensated," he says. "It started giving me documentaries on Joseph Goebbels and Adolf Eichmann. It stopped thinking I was gay and decided I was a crazy guy reminiscing about the Third Reich."
Not so sure the Tivo data is worth much.
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
> 97 percent of the individuals in Cambridge whose data appeared in a data base which contained only their nine digit zip code and birth date could be identified with certainty
First of all, I have never seen a 9 digit zip code. Secondly, and more importantly, the crucial data there is your birth date. If that data is not included in the TiVo information, this post means very little. If the BDate is in there, that's a problem.
As long as the data is kept on an anonymous level, I'm happy to see them sell back information on my watching patterns.
TV ratings currently come from Nielsen surveys/boxes/etc. If you have ever participated in one of these, you know how ridiculous the process is.
I want my favorite TV shows to have higher ratings so that they last more seasons.
Evolution: love it or leave it
I read thru every decently-moderated posting above, hoping SOMEONE would make this comment, but noooooo.... the privacy gang took over. Anyway...
It seems like every time this comes up, someone complains about the way the cable companies, media companies, etc. are just looking for an excuse to squash PVRs. (I own an UltimateTV unit, but the TiVo is the same...) I don't think I've watched a commercial during a delayed playback in the last year, unless I was just too busy getting a soda to grab the remote. That's gotta worry the content providers.
So the REAL danger I see here is that the content providers will prove to themselves the reality of what's going on in PVR-land, and finally have a real excuse to push even harder for DRM and locking out the fast-forward and skip buttons. Okay, I'm already frustrated enough that I can't skip that stupid FBI warning at the front of a DVD, so the LAST thing I want is someone telling me I can't use the fast-forward button right this moment, because there's a paid Budweiser advertisement on, and by God I WILL have to watch it because Anheiser-Busch PAID for me to watch it. Even though I don't drink beer.
So where are all the DRM versus PVR nuts? SOMEONE chip in here... tell me I'm not all alone...
--Brandon / Split Infinity Music
While individuals will be anonymous
. . . for now . . .
[i]Selling my personal data (even if it's anonymous) it's violation of my rights.[/i][br][br]They aren't even selling data in such a way as to say "This unknown individual watched these programs." This is about as invasive as putting traffic counters on roads you frequent. The whole point in aggregate data is that it isn't unduly swayed by one individual.
Here's a privacy policy I'd like to hear from a major corporation, just once:
We view our collection of data about our customer base as both an asset and a liability.
It is an asset in that we use it to generate aggregated data about you, and sell that data to people who want to sell you things.
It is also a liability in that we got this data from you with a promise to never release it in detail, allowing others to see your individual habits and preferences.
With that promise in mind, we repeat that we will never sell our data about you in a manner that allows you to be individually identified. If we ever go out of business, our last act as a corporation will be to destroy any indices that would enable that.
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
Just have a 'bot watch for the red light on the TiVo, and the TV being on. If nobody's watching, and nothing's being recorded, change the channel every ten minutes to something random. Hit instant replay a buncha times.
Race ya' to sourceforge to create the TiVoMonkey project.
Design for Use, not Construction!
credit reports, in which case they *do* know your income, pretty much.
Actually I just went there and told them what I don't want to see: that stupid black bar at the bottom of every show. If you also watch TNN, I'd encourage you to do the same. If they get enough comments saying it, they might listen.
I don't live in America and am therefore not familiar with (american) commercials and their broadcasting. If I watch TV, I change (most of the time) the channel whenever there are commercials. Thank goodness, they don't vary the duration too much. Mostly I watch the public channel, without commercials. I really dislike commercials. If i don't want to buy your product, without you having to force it down my throat by flooding me with commercials, then i don't need to buy your product. I can't imagine someone watching voluntarily commercials. At least not without being paid for it. The only time when I see a commercial, is when I am too late, too early in switching or too lazy to find the remote. And with Tivo you can skip the commercials with one push of a button. (so says the article) So what's the value of the information they are selling? If the only commercials you watch are by accident. Or are Americans not concerned into getting lured to buy something they don't want or need?
I posted this to Usenet a while back. . .
Let me guess, alt.tinfoil.hat.conspiracies?
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
TiVo is a gift from God. ('specially wih a 120gb hd, aaaggghhhh) They can have my soul if they want it. :-)
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
The problem with collecting data isn't that we fear it will be used a malicious way. Corpoartions aren't out to get you (That's what the Govment is for ;). They're out to get your money. The voice I think I'm hearing is the fear that they will use the data with money in mind, disregarding whether morally good or evil the results are. Whatever the result is to consumer privacy, it's inconsequential to them (unless the consumers respond unfavorably with their wallets).
Even aggregate data. As long as you got a buck behind the motivation, you've no idea what kind of payload its carrying. It could be flowers. It could be poison gas. They don't care. As long green paper comes with it.
Personally I don't own one of these. But I would be worried. The boxes are uniquely identifiable to a household. I would want proof before I either cry or smile. A sample with simple explanations of the columns would suffice. It would smooth relations with their customers, I would think they would want that.
However if they are hiding the fact that they are selling individual information, this may be the statement to diffuse any incident should news leak out. "You knew about this. We announced we were selling this information. No we didn't give you a chance to see a sample to make sure. Trust us."
Trust? Trust has nothing to do with money making corporations. Who are you kidding? They emulate trust... to get in your pockets maybe. Do you know TiVo? Does he live on your block? Do you know his kids? Do your kids mow his lawn? Does your dog know the scent of his crotch?
"Last one in is a rotten goblin!" - Kepp
"96.3 percent of our subscribers skip commercials."
Oops.
paintball
Hmmmmm, maybe what we need is more T&A?
Quack, quack.
This makes it so that anyone with a Tivo becomes like a nealson family. This is good. Now watching TV is like voting for what you like (ideally). Sort of like when the music charts went from being determined by what critics say are the top ten to actually being based on CD sales.
SPAM
Wasn't the tracking/selling of viewer habits something that Tivo promised not to do when it first came out? I seem to remember this was an issue when Tivo first came out (along with its need for a phone line to download programming information, there were concerns it would phone back out and pass along personal information).
I love the last quote from Martin Yudkovitz: We want to embrace the opportunity to help advertisers and broadcasters better understand the current and future impact of DVR so they can adapt content and advertising strategies to this new medium. If they want to help advertisers and broadcasters, why are they selling the information?
Of course it might not be a bad thing; if they base the advertising that's passed to me on which commercials I don't fast forward through, it will be 24-7 of Victoria's Secret commercials - Party at my house, dudes!
myke
Mimetics Inc. Twitter
"Aggregate" data by 5-digit zip code is not enough to personally identify you. It's like watching log-ins by IP address. You get liumped with everybody else who was watching Smallville or Buffy reruns.
Marketing is ESSENTIAL to support broadcast TV as we know it. Someone has to pay for all those production costs, and right now it is the advertisers. I like it that way. TIVO and other time-shifting technologies scare advertisers and TV producers because they see costs rising and revenues dwindling.
Companies waste a lot of money on advertising because they don't know what commercials "work" (or are at least watched). If they could get fast feedback, maybe the really stupid and pointless commercials would go away faster. If they could get better at spotting what ads are getting viewed/skipped on what shows, maybe the shows wouldn't go away for lack of advertisers.
I love the "I paid more for it so it must be better" effect. My favorite example (outside of IT purchasing practices) was a weight loss formula sold on TV. Their main justification for charging $150/bottle was that you wouldn't pay that if it didn't work. Nice and circular argument, and I suspect lost on the public. And obviously they find suckers.
I expect, as you state, it's similar for newspapers and their advertisers, so they charge a token cost at the newsstand.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
You know what? You're wrong. I care, and I care that that information is being sent to people I don't know about.
The same demographics that buy tivos are the ones not targetted well by ads or tv shows (imo). And honestly Id like more programming that targets ME, and I wouldnt mind ads for things I would want to buy.
Lets see more shows like farscape, firefly, who's line is it anyway, futurama, etc.
Sleep is for the weak.
. . . they're sampling the programs that are being recorded. Record your favorite shows! Even if you're watching them live! If they would have sold this data last year we could have saved Firefly, Futurama, and Farscape.
"We shall party like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean." - HedonismBot
You have 100 hours of archived Dr. Phil, and you don't think that's embarassing?
Naah, however, asking for a torrent file to download the lastest show would be.
my sig
Just to add a little more interest to the conversation, the +4 number generally corresponds to a tract/block (I can't remember which) number from the US Census Bureau. The USPS maintains something called the MAF (Master Address File) that contains a list of every address in the US. The MAF is constantly updated by the Census Bureau through their ongoing surveying efforts (they do surveys more than every 10 years). The MAF doesn't contain personal information (names, etc.) but your address is in there.
"Want in one hand and spit in the other and see which one fills up first." - My Dad
Am I the only one who thinks that the extreme "privacy" fringe is doing a lot to discredit legitimate privacy concerns.
Yes and no.
They would counter that they have to be 100% opposed to the marketers, because the marketers will stop at nothing less than total invasion of privacy. And true or not, in pursuit of the almighty dollar, we've seen marketers do some pretty appalling things.
The bigger problem is that no one is willing to work for a consensus ON ANY ISSUE, and this "total victory at all costs" mentality makes everything into a zero-sum game requiring aboslute zealotry. Microsoft isn't content with most of the market because they fear their competitors will try to run them out of business, pro-choicers aren't content with mostly legal abortion because they're afraid that anti-abortion foes won't stop there, and so on and so on.
Everything has been ratcheted up to this zero-sum, winner-take-all level and it's really hard to back down because if your opponent won't, you've effectively lost everything.
It doesn't help that even when people are seeking consensus, they utilize zero-sum rhetoric -- if you're against affirmative action, you're a card-carrying KKK member, if you're for gay rights you're a moral degenerate who can't be trusted with children, and so on.
We've lost the ability to reason and see the middle ground.
The problem with Tivo still remains that although they make 'anonymity' noises now, they can de-anonymize any time they choose. Right now, the user base is ramping up, and so Tivo is very careful not to upset people. When the user base is steady, the situation is likely to be different.
n t.asp?id=62&type=0
I will only belive Tivo's privacy posture if the data is stored anonymously as opposed to simply used anonymously. The only reason they can possibly have to store user data now is because they are effectively reserving the right to de-anonymize later for business purposes.
There is much info on Tivo privacy; one link is http://www.privacyfoundation.org/privacywatch/pri
As a last point, the UK Data Protection Act insists the people-data databases declare data use on forming. If the data use is changed (eg info can now be sold, before not so) then the historical data must be scrapped. That theoretically protects against data misuse by collecting under false pretenses, or complete about turns on privacy statements that have happening in USA.
> You have NEVER seen a 9 digit zip code?
Haha, I'll prove YOU wrong! I'm... err.. wait, yeah 9... Why was I thinking 10 digit? Okay, you're right that I have seen them before, but still, I rarely see them. Probably helps that my ZIP (26003) has fewer addresses in it than, say, 90210 (the DIP code).
I keep waiting for movie theaters to drop the ticket price now that I have to watch commercials instead of soundless slides. It makes me mad that I have to pay ten bucks and watch horrible matrix/poweraid commercials. One or the other please.
Yes I did read the summary and the article. Yes, I realize that my personal information per se isn't being sent anywhere, but as a whole it is. It all comes back to how many people have tivo in my zipcode, and I bet it's not very many.
I think this is great - it means that TiVo users, who as early adopters of technology tend to have tastes more like mine, will have a greater say in what shows get produced and kept on the air!
Perhaps with this, Firefly would not have been cancelled...
"It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us." - Zelazny
Perhaps ZIP+4 resolves to just a few people, but the TiVo is only told your 5-digit zip... TiVo, Inc. could correlate it with mailing addresses I s'pose, but I doubt that they do, it would generate an absurd data file and could not be honestly called "aggregate."
"It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us." - Zelazny
When any tiny little perceived "freedom" or "privacy" infraction comes up, /. turns into a 5000 lb chicken little. EXCEPT when it comes to the TIVO. It's like everyone is all against [whatever] as long as it's not something that /. actually likes and uses from a product standpoint. Then it's all "I'm perfectly fine with this", and "Maybe this is a good thing".
The philosophical whiplash is threatening to tear my head off.
I actually agree with you, it's the other 99% of the time where XXX is spying on you they are evil, evil, evil that gets to be tiring, then this...
Contrary to popular belief, coding is not all free blow-jobs and beer. Those things cost MONEY!
For once, advertisers are in danger of targeting content, as opposed to merely making it more offensive and flashy in the hopes of getting my attention.
I currently run adzapping proxies and spamfilters. But that's because the ads are offensive, obnoxious, and almost never what I want.
If ads were suddenly something that might hold my interest [by way of example, I do actually click on Penny-arcade ads sometimes], then it's a Good Thing. I click them, everyone benefits. But that's because they're what I'm interested in.
For once, it seems that ads might be sensible. Does anybody lose out here? You already have no privacy - and there's a chance that this is being used in a good way for a change.
Yes, I understand that TV != Internet, but my point still holds.
Gary (-;
If you don't watch any advertiing at all, then how do you know when a new show is on?
I often don't. I pick through the listings sometimes for things that interest me, and I'll sometimes hear about a "new show" from others who watch it.
If something's worth seeing, I'll find out about it eventually. I'm in no hurry.
GeekNights!
Late Night Radio for Geeks!
I'm all for privacy, but not to the point of needless paranoia. TiVo selling this aggregate information is a good thing.
It delivers REAL statistics. This means the decision makers have better information about what shows to keep and what shows to drop. This also provides better information to advertisers.
Most of us have learned to tune out ads because they so rarely advertise something we're interested in. I'm not in the field of advertising, but if nearly every ad I saw was based on my interests, I'd probably watch more ads and hell, I might actually buy more of their product. Why? Because it applies to me and while it is largely computerized, at least SOME effort was put into determining WHAT to send to me, as opposed to the buckshot approach of spam.
it will keep the broadcasters, production companies, and networks off my back about recording their shows, or skipping commericials. If it appeases them to know that I watch the West Wing and live in Columbia, then so be it. I haven't lost anything. Just let me keep my Tivo.
From my rejected post late last night:
Today TiVo begins selling information about its customers' viewing habits to advertisers and others. Two years ago TiVo admitted it had plans to sell subscriber information - it looks like that day is finally here. This should be interesting if only due to the new TiVo hacking book about to be published.
So what happens if they conclude that "Tivo owners tend to skip ads" and "Star Trek viewers tend to use Tivo"?
This is in no way a good thing. In fact its very very very bad, and while it is in itself not an invasion of privacy it will lead a great deal of invasion, of privacy that is. Even though the data is annonoumous they still get zipcodes which means that the people tivo sells your info to will be mailing you huge masses of junk mail specificly tailored to the viewing habits of everyone in your zipcode. And yes this will deffinitaly happen as it has most certainly happen before. Companies have no respect for the indvidual and never will.
Good point.
Depending on the type of data they get, however, it might mean that they will start making better ads. I have a ReplayTV, and I skip quite a few ads, but there are a few that I actually watch. I only watch them once during a show usually, though, cause seeing them every 5 minutes can make even the most fun ad tiresome.
While not the most elegant post I've seen, it is informative and he used a properly formatted footnote.
Read, L
The truth is really the opposite. There are so many commercials on the programs on Discovery Channels - History Channel, Discovery Wings, etc, that the shows are a total waste of time if you can't FF past the ads. I discovered this fact when I recommended some shows on Discovery Wings to TiVo-less friends and they replied that they are unwatchable due to the flood of commercials. I think the useful content time on those channels is in the 20 minutes per half hour range. At some tolerance point on those shows Because these channels are otherwise unwatchable they may someday find if they ignore the TiVo users they they have no other viewers left.
Ever dream you could fly? Get up from the Flight Sim. I Fly
No one cares about what Joe Sixpack's emails are.
Until Joe Sixpack gets a divorce and his wife decides to bring up his predilection for writing NC-17 slashfic on mailing lists.
But there are plenty of people who DO need privacy and DO need encryption and they DO NOT wear tin-foil hats.
I think it's not a matter of whether everyone *needs* privacy because they do; the question is *when* you'll need it. Forsaking it now will spell trouble later on...
Geek + Babylon 5/Star Trek/Anime/etc. = High TiVo ratings = TV execs know that ads on that show skipped = No ad revenue = Show cancelled.
Non-geek + Nth varient of Golden Girls = Low TiVo ratings, high traditional ratings = Advertising absorbed = Ad revenue = New this season on ABC, "N+1 varient of Golden Girls!!"
While I have no objection to Tivo selling aggregate data to marketers by ZIP code (at least as long as it's only the 5-digit code), the fact that they can collect the data at all is problematic. All it takes now under the US Patriot Act is a simple request by a government agency for a surreptitious record of an individual's viewing habits. Under the proposed Total Information Awareness program, the viewing habits of every Tivo subscriber would automatically be transmitted to the government.
I know that tivo has been opened up but only some of the information has been released.
Well, if this is their tactic, please allow users of tivo an answering tactic.
Neilson did not get it's data for free and neither should tivo.
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
If you're seriously concerned about it, figure out the format of the data Tivo sends in (some Tivo hacker may have already done it for you), interpose an old computer with Linux between it and the phone line, and filter out the stuff you don't want it to send in. Or if you're really adept, perhaps you could find a way to insert a filter program in the Tivo itself, and save the extra hardware. After seeing what Tivo hackers have done in the past, I have to think either of these approaches is possible.
Okay, so they're collecting information on what I'm watching with my TiVo. Great. I hope they use it to make sure that more programs that I like (Firefly, etc) stay afloat while more retarded programming gets axed.
One thing, though. When I "power down" my TV viewing system, I do it by shutting off my television and stereo receiver and walking away. The Tivo stays happily on whatever channel it was on, thereby "viewing" whatever show is on between then and when I next turn it on. Unless something gets recorded in the meantime, for which it will have to change channels.
So I suppose I better change the channel right before I turn the system off, in order to artificially boost the ratings of whatever network I happen to be watching? What if this is the usage model of a million different people?
-- Mojo Tooth : exploring our world as only an idiot can.
But so far, most of what they give us is "The Golden Girls" in a thousand different variants. Anything that lets someone know what I personally watch is a good thing.
Great, then they can collect the data on most popular 2nd time around shows and can use this market anal to create new shows like.
1. Golden Girls the next generation
2. Designing Babylon 5
3. Blanch the Vampire slayer
4. Delta Scape [yes, Suzanne Sugarbaker gets worm hole technology and is directly responcible for uniting the Scarins(sp) and PeaceKeepers on a holy war to destroy earth).
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
I need a TiVo for Slashdot so I can skip comments that contain unpleasant and painful truth. Back to plan B.
1) Take over the world
2) Force the networks to hire JMS and finish Crusade
3) Profit!!!
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
But this is John Ashcroft's America and, while I don't think I'm all that paranoid, I am uncomfortable with having my viewing habits exposed. I realize that they promise anonymity, but online shopping sites promise credit card security, and it used to be safe to check out subversive books from the library. We now know that that's not true anymore.
Is there any danger that the government might eventually try to get at individual viewing habits because they're suspected of being up to no good? Could the shows you watch or the parts you replayed or paused on eventually be used against you? Before you answer that it couldn't happen, just remember that many of us used to think that about where we shopped or what books we read.
After Price is Right ends in the morning, I turn off the TV and walk away. I guess Tivo would figure that I really like CBS's soap operas since I seem to watch all of them every day. Hopefully they can figure out that I haven't touched the remote and am therefore not watching TV, but I doubt it. They just think that I watch a lot of "The Hunky and the Stupid" or whatever comes on later in the morning.
And you're wrong because it's not individual information! It's anonymous data! It's saying: "People in area X of age Z like Y shows".
The Advertisers don't even care what one person watches. How is that going to benifit them financially? It's only of use in a rolled up sense.
I used to work for a free ISP in Australia which collected surfing behaviour of users... but it was always anonymous... we couldn't say "Hey Fred, we notice you've been viewing a lot of porn lately... we might tell your wife"...
This was because:
a) Who cares
&
b) It only made sense for us to use general demographic/geographical information about people and target groups of people with certain characteristics/surfing habits. We never knew anything about individual people, but it meant that rather than people receiving blanket spam, they would receive marketing more relevent to their 'segment' (NOT them specifically, but rather to the group of people that they shared characteristics with). What happened? Well the response rates of those offers went up, the satisfaction went right up, people LIKED getting offers that were relevent (Think those Think Geek ads you see up there)...
Stop being so damn paranoid. They don't care, it's not YOUR information about YOU that's being sent, it's anonymous statistics about trends and usage amongst GROUPS of people... get over yourself.
If the TiVo viewing data really gets distributed there will be MUCH better ratings for /. TV like Star Trek(s), Red Dwarf, Blackadder, The Office, Buffy,... and the stuff on TechTV and the Sci-Fi channel.
It's modded up as funny, but it's actually true. Not only can TiVo determine which shows are being watched, but they've in the past released statistics as to which parts of shows are watched the most.
TiVo is the Neilsen of the 21st century.... except much better; now there's a much larger sample to draw from, meaning the numbers are more accurate, and there's less chance of a sleeper hit slipping by unnoticed.
NO CARRIER
How big are zipcodes in the US?
Postal codes here in the UK have about 15-30 houses in them. I'd imagine that any Tivo users in the UK would be effectively completely identifiable because they'd be the only Tivo owners in their postcode...
I've always wondered how reliable TiVo data is. Clearly the history of recorded programs is going to be good, but if they track which programs you watch "live" I'm willing to bet most of the data is garbage, because nobody turns their TiVo off. I just power off the TV and the stereo, and the TiVo runs 24x7. That means when it's done recording Formula One, it hangs around on Speed Channel picking up every redneck NASCAR talkshow until Enterprise comes on the following day and forces a channel-change (for example). Just a thought.
Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005
You'd be surprised how difficult it is to make all data nontraceable. For example if you're doing aggregate data on a home (ltc facility) you have to be certain that if there is only one resident with parkinsons (unlikely) that when you show related data to parkinsons patients/residents it doesn't directly link to their meds (or whatever else it is your showing).
It's far from status quo. Although we have been dealing with this for quite some time. HIPAA is both good and bad in my opinion. It's difficult to implement something like that without the stupid side effects (a la not reporting injuries to football players, etc).
If you were the one being denied care, it would matter. However, that's the american way. Ignore it as long as it doesn't affect me. Sad really, I blame the republican "evil-doers" party.
I believe a person owns that which he controlls (what you can destroy you own). TIVO's opt out is not you in controll - it is you asking for a favor over something they claim to own - the collected data and the right to use the hardware to collect that data.
So take controll, you bought the hardware and your data should belong to you (even in aggregate it is your data, to the extent that data derived from you is part of the aggregate).
As to agreements made wherein TIVO retains the "right" to do the data collecting as part of purchasing the hardware: It should be no diffrent then purchasing a car or a microwave, if you want the warranty you do what they say, if you want total ownership you may remodel the thing to suit yourself, but lose any warranty.
My Sig left me for another /. Sig
I think we're arguing the same point. We've known about HIPAA since '96(?) and have been very careful to focus on it since it was passed. Everyone else is crapping in their pants where we just undergo our regular audits.
Clear Channel now owns Britney Spears.