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Novell Nterprise Linux Services Announced

eer writes "At BrainShare (Novell's customer/developer conference), Novell customers reacted positively to the news that they would have the choice of running Novellâ(TM)s network services on Linux or NetWare or both. Today the company provided more details by introducing Novell Nterprise Linux Services, which will give customers file, print, messaging, directory and management services in an integrated package that runs on the Red Hat Enterprise Linux and SuSE Linux Enterprise Server distributions--along with providing those customers with comprehensive Novell technical support, training and consulting services for Linux. Partner companies, including IBM, HP, Dell, Red Hat and others, also voiced their support for Novell's Linux."

236 comments

  1. Not Microsoft? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's only a matter of time. I bet its a big secret project right now. A big, secure Linux, teamed up with the NSA, so they can say `hey, if these guys trust us, YOU can`.

  2. Two fingers to SCO by suds · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Excellent move by Novell. Basically they are showing two fingers to SCO and their silly legal moves. Ours is one of the many asking novell for providing linux support for a while. And we are glad to see it arrive finally.

    1. Re:Two fingers to SCO by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1

      I wonder if SCO is intending to sue Novell for violating the Unix Patents, despite the fact that the patents are still registered with Novell?

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    2. Re:Two fingers to SCO by shadow303 · · Score: 1

      Two fingers??? Would that be the British equivalent to the American middle finger?

      --
      I've got a mind like a steel trap - it's got an animal's foot stuck in it.
    3. Re:Two fingers to SCO by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      It just hit me: Given that SCO has never registered the Unix patents, the patents to RCU, etc.. they can't sue for statutory damages -- only direct damages. Even if SCO was to, somehow, win this legal mudfight: Given that they're still giving away copies of the same code, I think that you could convince a judge that the actual damages are zero.

      They haven't just shot themselves in the foot on this -- they've blown off their whole lower leg.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    4. Re:Two fingers to SCO by Some+Bitch · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It goes back to Agincourt, legend has it that English archers captured by the French had their index and middle fingers chopped off to make it impossible for them to use a bow again. The 2 fingered salute was the English way of saying 'You ain't got me yet!' :D

    5. Re:Two fingers to SCO by mrmeval · · Score: 1

      Definitly, I left a message on Novell's website detailing a Novell-2-MS horror story just after they spoke up about SCO. I'm glad to see this, Novell had many of the things in their networking that took years to show up in other OS's.

      Wasn't it a Novell server that was walled up in some college?

      --
      I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
    6. Re:Two fingers to SCO by __aadhrk6380 · · Score: 1

      Yep, it sure was a Novell server. It was at the University of North Carolina.

      A Netware server everyone had forgotten about. The danged thing got walled over in an office remake (physical office, not Microsoft Office). Being Netware, and that it still had power to it, it just kept running. What, no weekly reboot schedule?

      To me, this is probably the smartest move that Novell could make. At this point, why try to make the most stable server platform (which honor seems to be taken by Linux). It is all about the networking services available. Novell has a pretty solid core NOS, but it is their vision of a unified network infrastructure, providing services regardless of platform, that sets them apart.

      I am looking at going from 13 to 45 sites in a heterogenous network (Novell and W2K). There is ABSOULTELY NO WAY ADS is going to be a part of my network. NDS is more scalable, stable, and mature, and it offers my customer more features. I would go with straight Novell (or Linux), but some of the apps require MS. If I could go (today) with a solid, reliable Linux only solution, I would. Unfortunately, I can't.

      A fantastic core NOS like Linux with a fantastic DS product like NDS is win-win for me and my customers.

      Novell is offering itself as a networking specialist, not a network operating system specialist. They might just drive change after all. Microsoft hammers operability (from an 'engineer' and certification standpoint) and relies on popularity. After all, can 1,000,000 MCSE's be wrong?

      Wow! Did you all hear that? It was the sound of a paradigm shifting without a clutch!

  3. Hey Novell ... by DogIsMyCoprocessor · · Score: 5, Funny

    Buy a vowel.

    --

    "And this is my boy, Sherman. Speak, Sherman." "Hello." "Good boy."

    1. Re:Hey Novell ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i don't get it.

    2. Re:Hey Novell ... by jo42 · · Score: 2, Funny
      Nterprise

      Some marketing wanker needs to learn to spell. Or is this based on 'NT' - I'm so confused!

    3. Re:Hey Novell ... by L.+VeGas · · Score: 5, Funny

      This is obviously part of Novell's bold new wave to hijack attention from the letter "i" by introducing the "n". Apple succesfully made e's look old fashioned (e-mail, eMachine) by introducing the "i" (iPod, iMac).

      I, for one, won't stand for it! What next? Ntelligence? Nterior design? I like I. You like I.

      I I I I!

      Even Star Trek used I.
      Kirk (calling on communicator): Scotty!
      Scotty: I, captain.

      I is a part of geek culture and should NOT be abandoned for the mushy N.

    4. Re:Hey Novell ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Buy a vowel.

      I don't know about buying, but I'm sure that SCO would be happy to license them the letter "O" :o)

    5. Re:Hey Novell ... by Craig+Maloney · · Score: 1

      That's "Aye", not I.

    6. Re:Hey Novell ... by WTFmonkey · · Score: 2, Funny

      Good lord, I hope you're trying to be funny, 'cause if not, that's just sad.

    7. Re:Hey Novell ... by Moskie · · Score: 2, Funny

      Novell... no-vowel.

      Coincidence? I think not. Or is that "coNcidence?"

    8. Re:Hey Novell ... by mwolff · · Score: 1

      When did Kirk ever, ever say Scotty? Isn't that kinda a misconception? Kirk always used Scott, right?
      Trekkies, help me out here!

    9. Re:Hey Novell ... by alexburke · · Score: 1

      This comment is probably the most well-deserved "Score:5" I've seen in quite some time.

      Scotty.

      Brilliant. :)

  4. Whew, by Angry+White+Guy · · Score: 5, Funny

    I thought that they named it Novell NTerprise, and were setting themselves up for litigation.

    --
    You think that I'm crazy, you should see this guy!
  5. BrainShare by onion2k · · Score: 4, Funny

    At BrainShare (Novell's customer/developer conference)...

    How many brains do they have to share between them?

    1. Re:BrainShare by Devil+Ducky · · Score: 2, Funny

      Apparantly only one or it would be called BrainsShare. But that's fine because most of the time people're not even using most of their brain, (how much processing power does it take to watch TV?) so someone else borrowing it shouldn't bother you, you probably would't even notice. The only questions I have are, how many people are sharing that one brain? Is it in some sort of jar, or someone's head? Who's brain was it before, hopefully they didn't do drugs or drink or anythign fun with their lives...

      --

      Devil Ducky
      MY peers would get out of jury duty.
    2. Re:BrainShare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For some reason I'm sensing some Borg/Matrix thing where you go plug your head into some networking equipment. Maybe BrainShare is where it all starts... Be very afraid...

    3. Re:BrainShare by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      Imagine a Beowulf...

  6. A couple years late? by erat · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I guess there was a window in which applications could be ported to Linux and Novell missed it?

    1. Re:A couple years late? by ghjm · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, this is the second time Novell has ported the Netware core services to Linux. The first time, it was when Caldera had just started and Ray Noorda (ex Novell CEO) was heavily involved. They released "NDS for Linux" for the then-current Red Hat Linux 6.0, with great fanfare. It worked well; your Linux box was basically indistinguishable from a native Novell box on your network. Which, at the time, was a valuable and worthwhile feature.

      I spent some time selling and installing these boxes to small businesses because they could seriously undercut the price of native Netware. They ran well on RHL 6.0, but got flakier on 6.1 and 6.2, and broke completely on 7.0. Novell/Caldera never upgraded or patched. Every time I called or talked to them at a trade show, they would tell me that a new updated version was right around the corner and should be out any day now. But it never happened.

      That was FOUR YEARS AGO. Four years and not a peep or whistle or so much as a security patch.

      Why should we trust them now?

      -Graham

    2. Re:A couple years late? by R3 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Ummm, last time I checked, Novell eDirectory 8.7 (NDS), eGuide (web LDAP lookup tool) and DirXML worked very nicely on Red Hat 8.0. And that was TWO DAYS AGO!

    3. Re:A couple years late? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you talking about? Take any authorized Novell NDS training course from the past two years and you spend more time sitting in front of a Linux box than a NetWare one. You stupid son of a bitch.

    4. Re:A couple years late? by Micro$will · · Score: 1

      Yes, but Novell eDirectory for Linux requires a real Novell Netware server somewhere in the tree to function as an NDS server, it's not standalone. Nterprise OTOH will function as a full Novell NDS server on it's own.

      IMO, it's about time someone put X.500 functionality into Linux, I just wish someone would have made it OSS. OSSDS or OpenDirectory anyone?

    5. Re:A couple years late? by R3 · · Score: 1

      Wrong again - this was the case about 4 years ago, you can now have completely standalone eDirectory 8.x running natively on non-NetWare platform - yes, even Win2K can be the master of your NDS tree, with replicas sitting on Linux/UNIX and NetWare.

    6. Re:A couple years late? by Havokmon · · Score: 1
      Ummm, last time I checked, Novell eDirectory 8.7 (NDS), eGuide (web LDAP lookup tool) and DirXML worked very nicely on Red Hat 8.0. And that was TWO DAYS AGO!

      But it's not a NetWare FILE AND PRINT SERVER (Unless you combine NDS with NFS/Samba/CUPS.

      The Caldera product (IIRC) was a complete NETWARE SERVER that ran on Linux. Not unlike some of the freeware Netware emulators that still exist, but have never been updated either.

      --
      "I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
  7. fainlly! by Horny+Smurf · · Score: 4, Funny
    We'll be able to print from linux!

    And, if i'm reading this right, we can have files under linux too!

    In your face SCO!

    1. Re:fainlly! by FroMan · · Score: 1

      I know this was written in jest, yet I think I would like to mention that using cups for printing in linux is great now. Its terribley easy to setup and it just does its thing without much intervention.

      --
      Norris/Palin 2012
      Fact: We deserve leaders who can kick your ass and field dress your carcass.
    2. Re:fainlly! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      it isn't just about file and print, you dumb son of a bitch, it's about nds which is like the best fucking directory out there and more secure than any other bullshit, linux or otherwise. nevermind that Novell does f&p better than anyone else too, your mom should have killed you the second you popped out of her cunt.

    3. Re:fainlly! by PreyCor · · Score: 1

      did the doctor throw you away and keep the afterbirth... you're terribly filthy

  8. Novell Is Smart. by jellomizer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Unlike SCO who just cries fowl when they realize that they are not going to make it. Novell knows that for Servers Linux is where the money is and they are now (A little late) putting some effort into it. The last time I looked at a Novell System was 4 years ago. But it ran a modified version of MS DOS. Although it was a pretty stable system. I always thought if they just port their tools to Linux they can have a good competing system now and actually get new customers and not just hang on to their current base.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:Novell Is Smart. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      It didn't run a modified version of MS DOS, it used DOS to bootstrap itself.

    2. Re:Novell Is Smart. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Redundant

      he's right. please mod parent up

    3. Re:Novell Is Smart. by WickedLittleSlaveBoy · · Score: 3, Informative

      it only used MSDOS(or PCDOS or DRDOS) for bootstrapping, Netware was never a "modified version of MS DOS".

    4. Re:Novell Is Smart. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Redundant

      And he's right.

      Please mod parent up. K, thanks.

    5. Re:Novell Is Smart. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'cries foul' -- odious, not aviary

    6. Re:Novell Is Smart. by sphealey · · Score: 5, Informative
      The last time I looked at a Novell System was 4 years ago. But it ran a modified version of MS DOS.
      "A lie can run around the world while the truth is tying it's shoelaces".

      Please (please?) can we stop with the "Novell runs on MS-DOS" business? Propriatary hardware (Sun, IBM, most minis and workstations) have ROM-based bootstrap loaders and monitors built in so that the machine will boot and can be managed/repaired even if the main OS is dead. This doesn't mean that these systems "run" on the bootstrap loader.

      Since about Netware 1.1 Novell software has always run on commodity Intel boxes. Commodity boxes don't have bootstrap loaders or monitors. So Novell uses xx-DOS, which is cheap, simple, fits on a floppy, and understood by most sysadmins worldwide, as their bootstrap loader and monitor. After boot, feel free to do a "REMOVE DOS" command and purge all traces of DOS from memory.

      Netware DOES NOT "run on MS-DOS". And if you think it does, I really have to question that "+5 Informative".

      sPh

    7. Re:Novell Is Smart. by lars_stefan_axelsson · · Score: 1
      SCO who just cries fowl

      Bird brains the lot of them!

      --
      Stefan Axelsson
    8. Re:Novell Is Smart. by ryanvm · · Score: 1

      The last time I looked at a Novell System was 4 years ago. But it ran a modified version of MS DOS.

      So what, Linux is the same way. ; )

    9. Re:Novell Is Smart. by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I also agree that novell was going downhill for a long time now... I have a copy of Novell netware 5.1 with 10 user licenses in my drawer that has never been used... why? because 4.x is still doing the job fine for the decriped old crap that still uses it. (old dos based product that I hope dies real soon.)

      The novell server it is on has been up for over 7 years now. noone touches it except to change the backup tape daily. no administration, no reboots, no nothing ever needed to be done to it. something that is 100% impossible with any microsoft server ever made. it serves the files and printers flawlessly. Management 3 years ago wanted to upgrade it so they made me buy 5.1 and the new user pack.. I naver installed it as it is pure stupidity to mess with something that is not broke...

      I really hope that that old reliability and efficency that was the basis of novell is coming along with this product of theirs...

      because no programmers at microsoft are capable of it, and BSD or linux is the only thing even close to the realiability and speed of Novell.

      My only problem I ever had with netware was the insane way of configuring netware... what sick person thought that was a good idea? it makes editing sendmail configs by hand look easy.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    10. Re:Novell Is Smart. by fubar1971 · · Score: 1

      ...(old dos based product that I hope dies real soon.)...

      What does the NOS have to do with the type or age of the application in a ditributed network? If it is DOS based, I'm pretty sure Netware is not really running it, since Netware does not understand DOS commands or instructions. Netware 4.x can only execute NLM's.

      You are right though, don'y fix what isn't broken.

    11. Re:Novell Is Smart. by sphealey · · Score: 1
      What does the NOS have to do with the type or age of the application in a ditributed network? If it is DOS based, I'm pretty sure Netware is not really running it, since Netware does not understand DOS commands or instructions. Netware 4.x can only execute NLM's.
      Many old DOS-based apps run on the Btrieve database (may it rest in hell), or SQLBase (Gupta), both of which were most prevalent as NLMs. A lot of those old apps soldier on today.

      sPh

    12. Re:Novell Is Smart. by BigBadBri · · Score: 1
      Btrieve was a pig to program for, but it was fast, and stable for what we used to use it for (a work indexing / refernce number allocator), especially compared to the Microsoft stuff that was around at the time.

      We had Oracle running on Netware 3.11 at the same time, but it was still easier and cheaper to make a Quickbasic app that talked to Btrieve (I cost lots less per hour than the Oracle programmer...)

      What we need to remember is that the NLMs back then ran at ring 0 on the super-duper 386 machines, which made a hell of a difference.

      --
      oh brave new world, that has such people in it!
    13. Re:Novell Is Smart. by Namaseit · · Score: 1

      Actually its not late at all. Linux is still in infancy. No matter what it looks like. We dont have everything figured out yet, but it is moving at leaps and bounds. For me Linux is ready for desktop (and has been for sometime). I dont own a computer that doesnt have Linux on it, and Linux only. But then again thats just me.

      --
      75% of all statistics are made up!
    14. Re:Novell Is Smart. by mj01nir · · Score: 2, Informative

      Since about Netware 1.1 Novell software has always run on commodity Intel boxes. Commodity boxes don't have bootstrap loaders or monitors. So Novell uses xx-DOS, which is cheap, simple, fits on a floppy, and understood by most sysadmins worldwide, as their bootstrap loader and monitor. After boot, feel free to do a "REMOVE DOS" command and purge all traces of DOS from memory.

      FWIW, NetWare 2.x (I've never seen an earlier version than 2.0a) had its own bootloader. You essentially compiled a static kernel with the disk and network drivers you needed. Bootstrapping NetWare from DOS didn't come until NetWare 3.x.

      And, of course, one of the legacies of Novell's purchase of Digital Research is that NetWare now ships with Novell DOS (nee DR-DOS). With NetWare 3.x (and early 4.x I think) you needed to supply you own DOS.

      Also, REMOVE DOS is no longer valid with NetWare 5 & 6.

      --
      the no .sig .sig
    15. Re:Novell Is Smart. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you are on 4.x, you are running on ipx (for most nds, for file, and print) you can sit down and shut up. come speak up when you are at least pureIP ie 5.x.

    16. Re:Novell Is Smart. by Micro$will · · Score: 1

      My only problem I ever had with netware was the insane way of configuring netware... what sick person thought that was a good idea? it makes editing sendmail configs by hand look easy.

      I agree. What's the management app count now? 9?
      nwadmin (remote)
      ConsoleOne (local or remote)
      DNS/DHCP (remote)
      nwconfig (local)
      ndsmanager (remote)
      inetcfg (local)
      rconsole (remote console)
      Netware Management Portal (remote)
      NSS (local)

      Then you need Netware client for the workstations and maybe Zenworks for client configuration. But hey, once it works, you won't have to mess with it anymore.

    17. Re:Novell Is Smart. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Novell Nterprise Linux Services is going to need only one thou:
      iManager
      -all management from your browser (all of em) where ever you like it...

  9. Way to go Novell by jasonsfa98 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    More great stuff from them.

    I have seen many people put Novell down recently with all the SCO crap going on. But the truth is, they really do make great stuff that nobody can compete with (right now). Linux/Sendmail/mySQL is great (I use it a lot) but everything from Novell is just easier to deploy (flame bait).

    I mean ... can anyone challenge GroupWise?

    1. Re:Way to go Novell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I mean ... can anyone challenge GroupWise?
      Unfortunately there are tons of consultants who think they can, advocating all Microsoft solutions because of better integration and "industry standards".

      They don't even have to challenge it. Just show pretty pictures and spend enough money on researching Outlook that managers then have little or no choice but to follow through (or be seen having wasted money). *sighs*
    2. Re:Way to go Novell by Epi-man · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I mean ... can anyone challenge GroupWise?

      As one who has to suffer with Groupwise under Windows at work, I am concerned for your mental well being. For me, GW has been nothing but a leading source of crashes on my desktop. In all likelyhood this is related to our IS department (complete with the Windows experts that plugged my SCSI Zip drive into the parallel port after an upgrade), so I should take your message to heart and not blame Novell.

    3. Re:Way to go Novell by Asprin · · Score: 1


      You know, we had GW at my last sysadmin job. I hated the crap out of it and even planned to replace it until email became the primary transport vehicle for virii. I even used to send out weekly 'virus alerts' to my coworkers that went something like "Another virus is out but you can ignore it as long as you DON'T OPEN ATTACHMENTS because GW doesn't open them automatically. Click here for details....blah, blah." Mostly, it was just to explain why they were getting all these identical emails from their friends and acquaintances.

      Nowadays, we run sendmail with renattach - and that's even better because they have to MANUALLY RENAME THE FILE BACK TO AN EXE for the virus to do anything.

      --
      "Lawyers are for sucks."
      - Doug McKenzie
    4. Re:Way to go Novell by Slamtilt · · Score: 1

      You might want to just drop mails with virus infections on the floor, before they ever get near a user's mailbox. We're a bit stricter than that, and just drop everything with an executable attachment.

      And Groupwise is really not that bad, at least from a user's point of view, *if* it's competently administered. It's a bit limited in being able to hook things into it easily, though.

    5. Re:Way to go Novell by mrsam · · Score: 2, Informative
      I mean ... can anyone challenge GroupWise?

      Certainly, I can. For the longest period of time, Groupwise has been one of the most obnoxious anonymous spam relays on the Internet. Anyone who was stupid enough to have an Internet-facing Groupwise was essentially running an anonymous spam relay.

      I really can't bring myself up to trust anyone with anything concerning E-mail if they seem to be unable to grasp even the simple concept of a Received: header (not even mentioning such an advanced concept as a "closed mail relay").

    6. Re:Way to go Novell by jasonsfa98 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      We've been using a GroupWise system that I built from scratch 3 years ago. The server has NEVER crashed or lost any data (knock on wood). Notify however has caused a handfull of crashes on some Windows 98 boxes.

      Look into your IT staff ... not the software maker. This isn't MS where they are usually to blame. USER ERROR.

    7. Re:Way to go Novell by jasonsfa98 · · Score: 1

      The way GroupWise handles attachments is a plus. I think sendmail is great but you can't replace GW's calendar/groupware setup.

    8. Re:Way to go Novell by jasonsfa98 · · Score: 2, Informative

      There is a simple setting within the GroupWise config that can cause/remedy this. Again, this would be something that is overlooked by an inexperienced sysadmin.

    9. Re:Way to go Novell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My experience has been that it is fairly stable, but some of the management aspects (from the console) are a bit arcane. The ConsoleOne side is pretty nice. I have never worked with another mail system (as an admin) so I can't compare, but I think that it could be more intuitive.

    10. Re:Way to go Novell by jmu1 · · Score: 1

      You don't happen to work for a certain university in SE Georgia, would you?

    11. Re:Way to go Novell by nomadic · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately there are tons of consultants who think they can, advocating all Microsoft solutions because of better integration and "industry standards".

      As someone who has to work with both I can tell you Novell is annoying as hell to run in conjunction with Windows. Better off jettisoning Novell.

      Yes, they made decent software, even if they were a little behind the times (look at how long it took them to support TCP/IP). Yes, MS can be blamed for a lot of it. Yes, Novell was treated unfairly. But figuring out the reason why straight Windows is better than Windows/Novell is pointless; whoever's fault it is it's simply a fact now, and companies have to deal with it.

    12. Re:Way to go Novell by Ben+Hutchings · · Score: 1

      A friend of mine got a job with the local council, which uses Groupwise. He went on holiday for a few days and set up out-of-office notification as requested. Then he received a mail from a mailing list, to which it responded, which the mailing list echoed back, to which it responded, etc, etc. This problem was solved 17 years ago by 'vacation' in 4.3BSD, but Groupwise is a toy mail system that wasn't built to interoperate with the rest of the world.

    13. Re:Way to go Novell by jasonsfa98 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Or you didn't setup the rule correctly ... GG

      if(user@list.org) anyone?

    14. Re:Way to go Novell by jasonsfa98 · · Score: 1

      Hate to brake away ... but Symantec has a gateway product that filters EVERYTHING you tell it to. In 2 months we have dropped 20,000 emails. 99.997% were spam/virus.

    15. Re:Way to go Novell by Degrees · · Score: 1
      For what it is worth, GroupWise version 6 fixed this a couple years ago. The rules functionality of GroupWise is one of those things rather like a blowtorch - use it carelessly, and you will get burned. Because of the number of people doing so, Novell changed the rules to match what the *nix world is doing

      You can still have an indiscriminate reply-to-all defined now, but GroupWise only lets the first reply go out to any one sender on the internet (and resets the counter every 24 hours.)

      And yes, some of my users complained - they wanted an auto-reply generated for every piece of mail received.

      Although you feel GW is a toy mail system - my system can retract messages (that have not yet been opened), automatically tie my appointments in my calendar to my text pager, and stores only a single file attachment to be accessed by 600 recipients in one post office. GW has had (internally) the equivalent of Delivery Status Notification since day one - and is ready and waiting for the rest of the world to implement ESMTP and this feature.

      --
      "The most sensible request of government we make is not, "Do something!" But "Quit it!"
    16. Re:Way to go Novell by Ben+Hutchings · · Score: 1

      OK, I guess I'm just complaining about an old version then.

    17. Re:Way to go Novell by zonix · · Score: 1
      There is a simple setting within the GroupWise config that can cause/remedy this.

      Open details for your GWIA or STMP agent object in NetWare Administrator. Go to 'Access control' > 'SMTP relay'. Choose 'Prevent message relaying'.

      And yes, it's on by default.

      z
      --
      What would an EWOULDBLOCK block, if an EWOULDBLOCK could block would? -- me
    18. Re:Way to go Novell by Thumper_SVX · · Score: 1

      Groupwise the Client (hmm, sounds like an Evercrack character...) is not a great piece of software. It's pretty bloated and somewhat unstable unless your PC's set up JUST SO...

      OTOH, Groupwise on the backend is still light years ahead of the competition (read- Exchange) and has been for many years. It's lovely to administer and work with... and once it's running it's pretty much a "hands off" type install unless something goes wrong. Exchange 2000 is a step in the right direction, but it's STILL got a long way to go.

      My 2c worth... take it for what you want... but having worked with all sorts of Enterprise groupware and mail systems, I have to say that from an admin perspective Groupwise is the best. Now, if we can just get a decent client going we'll be rocking :)

    19. Re:Way to go Novell by PreyCor · · Score: 1

      Between this and this you should have enough information to get you the best tools to complement your GroupWise system... also note that PalmOS 5.0 will be shipping with a GroupWise client according to this. It might also be a good idea to check out the Cool Solutions pages for extra hints and tips now and again.

  10. Anyone use Novell anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Anyone? Bueller? I haven't seen Novell in the enterprise since I was a wee lad.

    1. Re:Anyone use Novell anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      The United States' second largest bank, universities, hospitals, county and state governments.

      Yeah, people still use it.

    2. Re:Anyone use Novell anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait
      A fortune 500 I used to consult for used Novell, but dropped it once all their workstations ran windows 2000. Laugh if you want, but it novell wasn't needed anymore.

      I suspect a lot of places running Novell don't realize they don't need it anymore.

    3. Re:Anyone use Novell anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      That doesn't even make sense... They dropped their enterprise-wide File/Print Server system to return to Peer-to-Peer networking via W2K workstations?

      I call shenanigans!

    4. Re:Anyone use Novell anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I call shenanigans!

      Where'd I put my broom?

    5. Re:Anyone use Novell anymore? by Ath · · Score: 1
      I suspect a lot of places running Novell don't realize they don't need it anymore.

      I suspect a lot of companies who use you to consult would not know any better.

    6. Re:Anyone use Novell anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love Novell my self, but their use in gov and especially edu and hospitals is because they are giving it away, like apple 10 or so year ago to schools. Not a good way to show my support, but fact none the less...

    7. Re:Anyone use Novell anymore? by PowerEdge · · Score: 1

      I use it

    8. Re:Anyone use Novell anymore? by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      "Yeah, people still use it."

      That can't be true. Novell doesn't have its own Slashdot section. Heck, even BSD (which, I believe, stands for BSD, Still Dying) has it's own section. So nobody must use Novell

    9. Re:Anyone use Novell anymore? by PreyCor · · Score: 1

      There are Novell customers that are clearly getting benefit from using Novell software - and it's not always NetWare. Take a brief browse through here and you'll quickly see that it's not just a case of people using the software... but people benefitting from the software.

      As for Novell having it's own /. section... well, it's never too late to start. :-P

  11. Novell is coming around by Lothar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Now this is an important step for Linux! To have integrated file, print, messaging, directory and management services on Linux is something sorely needed. Way to go Novell!

    1. Re:Novell is coming around by Horny+Smurf · · Score: 1, Informative
      You must have missed the part where they said it isn't FREE or free.

      Quick! Somebody start a sourceforge project. We can call it gnu/ter-prise.

    2. Re:Novell is coming around by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      This is an excelent point, and we at the GNU Project heartily agree. We were appalled that Novell has chosen to keep their proprietary secrets to themselves while at the same time utilising the Linux kernel and the myriad of GNU software. They could not have been more flagrant than if they had used The GNU/HURD as a basis for their commercial outrage!

      Because of this, we at the GNU Project have recently started GNUterprise, which aims to recreate the propriatery Novell Nterprise enviroment using only software licencsed under the glorious and all encompassing GNU General Public Licence. We have recently release GNUterprise 0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.1a We hope to release a final version at around the same time as Jimmy Hoffa is found alive with Elvis in Lord Lucans tropical hidaway basement.

      Yours with a GNU/beard

      RMS

    3. Re:Novell is coming around by TheViffer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Novell services on Caldera (1996)

      A step that is seven years late. Find it hard no one remembers this.

      Funny, seven years ago this was blasphemy. The Linux world was up in arms. Novell is evil! SCO rocks!! Please leave our little Linux alone!!!

      Today, the present. The Linux world wishes for ALL corporations to use Linux. SCO is evil! Novell rocks! Please add to our Linux and make it your own.

      --
      -- Knowing too much can get you killed, but knowing who knows too much can make you rich.
    4. Re:Novell is coming around by BubbaTheBarbarian · · Score: 1

      I was part of Novell when this went down. The really sad part was the infighting that occured between those wanted to keep Netware and those that wanted to move on to Linux. Novell had gone all the way to the point of haveing an Advanced Dev Group that did Linux hacks.
      Then, about three years ago, all the Linux groups were spun into thier own companies and half the folk got RIFed in the first three months.
      I am telling you though, if Novell had gone through with it, it would have rocked. They had some pretty AWESOME video streaming stuff that run faster then anything I have ever seen.
      Too bad it died, but I hope that they can bring it back.

      I want a blue SCO cone please....

    5. Re:Novell is coming around by SharpNose · · Score: 2, Informative

      Integrated file, print, messaging, directory and management services on a Unix-like operating system?

      Too bad no one COUGH-BANYAN-COUGH did this earlier COUGH-VINES!

    6. Re:Novell is coming around by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Absolutely amazing.... I'm sorry that Novell nor many other companies in this world actually charge for their products. Too bad they didn't just make it free so that then we could truely benefit from their idiocy.

    7. Re:Novell is coming around by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      "We can call it gnu/ter-prise."

      Would you really want to use an application that has "gnu/ter" written on it?

  12. No we know... by madgeorge · · Score: 5, Insightful
    > from the couple-years-late dept.

    I'm not sure about that. Can you imagine if Novell had announced this 2 years ago? Linux lovers would have praised them, but no one else would have taken them seriously because so few people took Linux seriously. It would have been another questionable product/marketing move from Novell.

    Now, however, Linux has tons of mind share, and we also know why Novell got involved with the SCO train wreck.

    --madgeorge

    1. Re:No we know... by Akasha · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, I think this would have been a smart move for Novell two years ago, maybe even four years ago.

      I remember the big push by Microsoft to use Active Directory in enterprise networks, upgrading from NT to 2K and using Active Directory to manage everything. Just like today, no one else really had a solution for massive infrastructures (using a client-server setup) with a central system for administration. Sure, NetWare was/is available, but it requires Windows to be utilized completely. This new functionality now makes it possible to have a massive server-clinet network with a non-Windows client OS and still retain the central point of administration.

      Novell + Linux = an alternative for Active Directory. Had this possbility been available before Active Directory was proven/accepted, we would be seeing a more competive enterprise business.

      --
      --Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. -Arthur C. Clarke
    2. Re:No we know... by Phil+the+Canuck · · Score: 1

      So, what, Windows doesn't required Windows to be utilized completely?

    3. Re:No we know... by fubar1971 · · Score: 1

      ...Sure, NetWare was/is available, but it requires Windows to be utilized completely...

      It's been a while since I have touched or even thought about Netware, but digging back into the cob webbed areas of my brain, I seem to recall that Novell had put out a Linux client for NDS. If my recollection is correct, I believe you were even able to create Linux objects in your NDS tree. I don't think you were able to manage your tree with a linux client (I could be wrong, like I said it's been awhile), but with Netware 5, you were able to use ConsoleOne. I know, it did(and maybe still does) suck compared to the WinBlows admin utilities, but if you wanted to migrate away from Micro$oft products you were able to, with a little bit of effrot.

    4. Re:No we know... by patter · · Score: 1

      but it requires Windows to be utilized completely. This new functionality now makes it possible to have a massive server-clinet network with a non-Windows client OS

      Netware works with clients of any flavor, older versions even supported *nix clients, but no one ever bothered. Works flawlessly with Windows and Macs, however, so this is really not true.

      Non-Windows != Linux ;)

      --
      -- If at first you do succeed, try to hide your astonishment. -- Harry F. Banks
    5. Re:No we know... by Akasha · · Score: 1

      I know, it did(and maybe still does) suck compared to the WinBlows admin utilities, but if you wanted to migrate away from Micro$oft products you were able to, with a little bit of effrot.

      Yea, the alternative was there, but at a diminished capacity compared to NetWare using Windows servers. IMHO, NetWare blows Active Directory out of the water for functioanlity but that just wasn't available before. So what's different now is that NetWare can fully be used w/those *nix systems (well, assuming you've got right distro).

      --
      --Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. -Arthur C. Clarke
    6. Re:No we know... by zurab · · Score: 1

      NDS for Linux has been available since 2000. I still have the 100 user CD they were sending out for free by just subscribing on their site. It installed without many problems and I was able to create a tree, OUs, objects, users, etc. Although, I did not test any advanced functionality. I believe they had GroupWise server and other products available as well, but those were not free.

      So, the solution was there, but it was not very attractive to many, well anybody, actually at that time. Now that SCO case has brought Novell closer to a spotlight (smart move Novell) this stuff will become more noticed and, hopefully, considered and implemented by many. Novell has some excellent enterprise software that gets overshadowed by marketing and hype from other companies.

      As far as requiring a Windows client for administration, I don't see how that is/was an issue - especially for enterprise clients.

    7. Re:No we know... by Akasha · · Score: 1

      As far as requiring a Windows client for administration, I don't see how that is/was an issue - especially for enterprise clients

      While you can administer NetWare using ConsoleOne, it lacks some of the more complex functions available with NetWare Administrator (which is a Windows-only app). From my experience, there are some things that just can't be done w/o NWAdmin. Hopefully this new plan includes a version of NWAdmin for Linux.

      --
      --Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. -Arthur C. Clarke
    8. Re:No we know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's going to use iManager:

      http://www.novell.com/documentation/lg/imanage15 /i manage/data/ahvlqb4.html

  13. Re:finally! by Angry+White+Guy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What we really have is a repacement for NIS+

    If Nterprise uses an alternate file ownership scheme with network ACL's, I'm all for it!

    --
    You think that I'm crazy, you should see this guy!
  14. Hooray, Linux for huge networks by Adam+Rightmann · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've always been a fan on Novell. I cut my teeth on Netware 3.12, and was always impressed with it's stability (plus, it's lack of virii, ever hear of a Novell virus).

    Once you got to Novell 4 and 5, you were able to manipulate very large scale networks, with thousands of users, something MS barely does (one PDC?) and Linux not at all. It makes me laugh when Linux Zealots talk about replacing corporate networks with Linux servers, and the largest network they've administered is 3 Pentiums and a Pentium II for playing Doom.

    Yeap, one big step for more Linux in real, corporate networks.

    --
    A. Rightmann
    1. Re:Hooray, Linux for huge networks by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Once you got to Novell 4 and 5, you were able to manipulate very large scale networks, with thousands of users, something MS barely does (one PDC?) and Linux not at all. It makes me laugh when Linux Zealots talk about replacing corporate networks with Linux servers, and the largest network they've administered is 3 Pentiums and a Pentium II for playing Doom.

      Ok I was agreeing with you until you started trolling...

      So you are telling me that UNIX is impossible to have thousands if not millions of users? are you really that stupid?

      Yes linux can deal with thousands of users, it's not hard and it is quite workable.. Hell using Samba BSD and linux machines can run a Micorsoft Domain network better than microsoft software can!

      please, learn about it before you pan it.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:Hooray, Linux for huge networks by rikkards · · Score: 1

      something MS barely does (one PDC?)
      I think you mean something MS barely did. With AD, all Domain Controllers are on an equal footing. Granted there is a PDC Emulator but that is only if you aren't running in Native Mode due to existing NT 4 BDCs. In Native Mode your PDC Emulator's role becomes only for account changes (Password changes or account lockout) otherwise it is a normal Domain controller.

    3. Re:Hooray, Linux for huge networks by patter · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well, that post was trollish, but seriously, Novell's network administration is superior to the way *nix or NT works (until MS created Active Directory - a clone of the way netware worked from verison 4 on).

      In the NT world, and *nix, you have an account on a machine, you log in to one machine, then maybe connect to others, maybe having permissions there or not, all controlled by the servers you connect to or the NFS mounted shares, whatever.

      In the netware world, you authenticate to the network as a whole, with one account, you have different permissions on various network resources (not servers), and through replication this permission set is passed anywhere its needed. Any workstation on the network can authenticate you to the network, because you have an account on the network. If the local server doesn't know about you, it can query around and find your account, and your envirnment is perfectly identical to what you had at 'home' as it were. Properly integrated with the client OS, moving offices is completely painless - this is not the case in NT or *nix setups.

      I've not done a huge *nix installation, perhaps there are ways to make *nix do this, but it appears very very server centric, much like NT 4 was.

      At one time the only viable solution for a large wan with thousands of users was Netware, and I'd argue that Active directory is still much inferior to it (and slower).

      Dont' get me wrong, in that same vast installation, any critical service should be running on some flavor of *nix, because I don't see Novell competing there in the slightest.

      When they finally ditched their silly IPX protocol (well or strongly favored TCP/IP) around version 5ish, Novell/*nix networks should have dominated the planet.

      I like Linux as much as the next guy, but I use the right tool for the right job, and don't see *nix as being comparable to Netware in some respects (at least before this sort of project), but then again, neither is Netware as good as Linux in others.

      --
      -- If at first you do succeed, try to hide your astonishment. -- Harry F. Banks
    4. Re:Hooray, Linux for huge networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Active Directory? You've got to be kidding me. Try Novell eDirectory and then give me a call back.

  15. Re:Legacy users only? by jasonsfa98 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Boy have you been left out in the cold. I think IPX has been left out since 6.0 and an option since 5.0.

  16. enterprise by Graspee_Leemoor · · Score: 5, Funny

    "that runs on the Red Hat Enterprise Linux and SuSE Linux Enterprise Server distributions"

    Kids! Never trust any product with Enterprise in the title unless it comes with batteries and has a light up deflector array and real torpedo and phaser sounds.

    On a similar note, if a website ever uses the acronym "SME" even semi-seriously then you should avoid that assiduously too.

    graspee

    1. Re:enterprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how about "sharks with friggen laser beams"

  17. another link of interest by stonebeat.org · · Score: 5, Interesting

    http://forge.novell.com/modules/news/ a SourceForge repository of Open Source stuff for Novell. RSYNC, Apache, bash, gcc etc.....

  18. Kind of makes you wonder .... by icewalker · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I mean, just a couple of weeks ago, Novell was trying to put SCO off of Linux by claiming ownership of key UNIX Copyrights. With this announcement just made - I would think they were trying to keep SCO at bay so that they could come out with this new product announcement and not have a certain amount of uncertainty about it from the Industry. After all, they have been developing this software for years ... yes years! There's a lot of money tied up in this.

    It all makes a little more sense now. I'm glad they finally embraced their services on Linux though. I always like the Novell File Services!

    --
    The truth is usually just an excuse for lack of imagination.
  19. More distros please by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 4, Funny

    integrated package that runs on the Red Hat Enterprise Linux and SuSE Linux Enterprise Server distributions

    I can't wait to see a version of Novell's package for OpenLinux, or even UnixWare+LKP ...

    --
    "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
  20. Why Enterprise editions of Linux? by einer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Will this run on a 'consumer level' version of RedHat? If not, why not?

    1. Re:Why Enterprise editions of Linux? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A lot of the authentication stuff we use works with versions of Redhat not officially supported and also with Mandrake. They just don't want to (or can't) support everything. Whether the attitude is right or wrong I can't say. Of course most of the NDS auth stuff can also just be done through standard pam/ldap anyway...

    2. Re:Why Enterprise editions of Linux? by dougnaka · · Score: 1
      It seems companies new to producing products on Linux make claims about supported versions to mimize the bredth of their new support offerings. IBM said we had to have Red Hat Advanced server to run DB2 EEE. I've run it successfully on RedHat 7.2,8.0,9.0 and Mandrake 9.0, Peanut Linux, and let's not forget my personal favorite, and our soon to be production server, Gentoo 1.4rc2. (I'm sure someone will whine to themselves about running anything but properly labeled "production quality" server OS, but please.. this is Linux, and I'm the one who gets paged at 3am when Red Hat Advanced server pooches it.)

      If they ship Linux binaries and need linux libs then it'll work on Linux. You may need to hack the install, or install rpm, but if you can't do it, hire someone who can!

      --
      My Linux Command of the Day site : LCOD
    3. Re:Why Enterprise editions of Linux? by alistair · · Score: 1

      Enterprise editions of Linux were actually demanded by, ermmm, enterprises. The first real version of these was SuSE Linux Enterprise Server (SLES) and the idea was quickly adopted by Red Hat.

      Most corporations are used to having an 18 month or so upgrade cycle between major releases of Solaris and AIX, and often skip a revision, so where I work we have had lots of Solaris 2.6, mainly skipped Solaris 7 (2.7) and are now finalising upgrading everything to 8. That because we have over 8000 Solaris servers. If you had to upgrade these every 3 months in line with the desktop Linux builds you you have a complete nightmare.

      Therefore you have an 18 month upgrade cycle which dosn't preclude service packs every 3 months or more frequently in terms of security fixes. It just means that binary compatibility will be guarenteed for each release for the life of that version, unlike Suse 8.0, 8.1, 8.2 etc.

      It takes major effort for a vendor to certify a product like Oracle on a Linux build and in return most companies pay them well for a support contract. If the trade off is that we use an Enterprise build and they guarentee to fix problems in a certain time frame, I am happy with that.

      This dosen't mean products won't run, I am happily running Sun's excellent Directory Server 5.2 on this Linux box on SuSE Linux 8.2. My production boxes are all running an Enterprise Linux build though and they seem to be working well and will be fully supported should they break at 3 in the morning.

    4. Re:Why Enterprise editions of Linux? by PreyCor · · Score: 1

      Remember that vendors indicate that they 'support' versions of OS's based off their testing resources and matrices.

      Novell delivers their products using RPM. This pretty much means that if you're ok with being 'unsupported' by their support organisation and probably most of their partners then you can install their packages on whichever distro you choose.

      At the very least you'll need to ensure that you can use RPM to install the software, and then work your way around any differences in the directory structure, libraries and other distribution differences.

  21. How much will we pay for convenience? by bytes256 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The problem is, this ain't gonna be cheap, especially if you buy one of the enterprise Linux's mentioned. Novell's got to make it extremely convenient for their existing sysadmins and Linux/UNIX sysadmin's too. Unless Novell does something miraculous, both groups will need to be retrained for this product. Novell admins will have to learn Linux and Linux admins will have to learn Novell. The Linux admins are going to scream why should I learn Novell when i can use NFS/NIS/LPD or Samba and Novell admins are going to scream why should I learn Linux when i can just use Netware. Sounds great, but they're gonna need to overcome one of their traditional weeknesses - MARKETING!

    --

    Slashdot, the site where everything's made up and the points don't matter
    1. Re:How much will we pay for convenience? by spotteddog · · Score: 1

      wOOt - I might find a job now since I know *both*

      --
      . there used to be a sig here.....
    2. Re:How much will we pay for convenience? by pacman+on+prozac · · Score: 1

      The major part of Novell administration is done through their own interface/client anyway so choice of OS for the Netware server isn't going to affect the day-to-day running in the terms you are thinking. About the only noticable change would be any performance difference and reliability difference....everything will still work the same (well should do).

      NFS/NIS/LPD are not really rivals to Netware, about the only similarity is that they are services. Netware is more of a total network solution whereas the services you mention are smaller seperate parts of this...that are not drawn together in any central interface (unless you consider webmin a rival to nwadmin...in which case go see a doc). Netware is designed for setting up these kind of services but shared between thousands of people, while this is possible with NFS/NIS/LPD it requires a much higher skill level and lots more time.

      I'd say the main target of this is people who already use netware, making it run on linux isn't really going to convert anyone as the choice of netware tends to be decided by the structure of the network it will be used on rather than the admins personal preferred OS.

    3. Re:How much will we pay for convenience? by lamename · · Score: 1

      While I don't think this sounds like that bad of an idea, I do wonder about the price. Given that Red Hat Enterprise Linux AS can set you back $1500 or more to start, and Novell typically charges per user, this could be a pricey product.

      I'll wait to see the final details and what value it delivers, but I think they might be a tough time.

    4. Re:How much will we pay for convenience? by k8er · · Score: 1

      I'm a Novell admin, and I look forward to the change. I'm a Linux newbie, but I've known for years that the market was headed in the Linux direction. Right after I got my CNE people kept telling me that there was no need for Novell guys, only MCSEs. It appeared that Novell was slowly being phased out at most offices and that there was no future in it, and no reason to invest in it as an admin, a company, or a developer. Now there is a viable upgrade path that and an opportunity for a smooth transition that does not waste our existing skills (or infrastructure). This really raises my opinion of Novell's future and makes me less afraid to keep my skills current with their products.

    5. Re:How much will we pay for convenience? by Soko · · Score: 1

      Novell is making an enterprise play with this, friend, hence the bad marketing name Nterprise.

      I would think that the idea of this product is to make NetWare and Linux "play nice together" - IOW enterprise level integration. IMHO, Novell's focus as of late hasn't been Netware but eDirectory and other NDS based services.

      NDS can kick Active Directory's ass and take it's lunch money any day of the week, since it's a much more mature product. By integrating Linux and Netware, they can leverage the OSS community and drop the Netware OS if they so choose, or just gain a lot more marketshare by having Directory Services that mask the differences and complexity of either OS.

      The whole point is that with NDS, Linux or Netware isn't a terribly large question at all - they're just resources on the NDS tree. This is one of the smartest plays I've seen from Novell in a long, long time.

      Soko

      --
      "Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
    6. Re:How much will we pay for convenience? by haggar · · Score: 1

      NDS can kick Active Directory's ass and take it's lunch money any day of the week, since it's a much more mature product.

      Not only much more mature, but much more powerful, too. In fact, a 4-billion object NDS has been implemented years ago! In the meantime it became even more scalable.

      Not to mention that NDS has been ported to several different platforms - including WindowsNT and 2K, too.

      --
      Sigged!
  22. About time by Dark+Paladin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can't see this as being anything as a "good thing".

    Used to be, the reason why you bought Netware was to do thse these things:

    1. File Server.
    2. Print Server.
    3. Administration of 1 and 2.

    For a long time, Novell had the best of 1 and 2 - and with their directory services, they weren't matched. I loved using Novell's admin tools. They were usually easy enough to get in and do what you want, and powerful enough to do all sorts of other things. You could set up rights, trickle them down or stop trickling, take care of email stuff - right there in one nice interface. Sure, it wasn't perfect - but compared to the compeition....

    The problem came with Linux, and people realized "Hm - do I need to spend this much for a file/print server?" They web server offerings in my humble opinion stank, and I never really liked Groupwise that much. It could do a lot of cool things, but other simple things that I would have expected were beyond it's grasp.

    So I see this as a Very Good Thing for Novell. In a way, they can be like Apple, only for the Server world on Linux. Apple's OS X's strength is that you can do all the cool Unix stuff you want - without having to do anything Unix-y to get it to work. You can crawl under the hood if you like or just sit at the dashboard.

    I'm browsing through the Novell offering, and here's what I'm hoping for:

    1. A kick-ass admin tool like thier old NWAdmin.exe tool. Start making plugins for things like Sendmail, Postfix, Apache - whatever. Go ahead and charge for the plugins so we can just sit back and go "click, click, click" and get stuff done rather that going "Hey - what was the setting in Apache for turning on directory indexing!" (Yes, I know what it is, thank you, move on.) Sure - there's stuff like Webmin that can do this, but Novell's Admin tool was still (IMHO) cooler. And with drag and drop, the directory style layout, and being able to click on a user and get all info right there would be most excellent.

    Make it Java based so I don't have to run it off of Windows. (What the hell was up with that, anyway? I could never figure out why Novell couldn't make an Admin tool for their servers that didn't run on Windows - granted, the last Novell I really used was Netware 5, so don't sue me if things have changed.)

    2. You can have multiple Linux servers out there, and instead of trying to figure out your LDAP settings and that, just install the software, start the admin, and say "These Directory users have these rights on this box on this directory" - click, click, click - you're done, have a nice day. This was something promised with eDirectory, but I'd like to see it really hardcore delivered.

    With this, merge the strength of Linux's "no license fee" with Novell's admin/directory tools. I want to have a server I can throw 5, 500, 50000 users on and not worry about licensing - and I just pay Novell for the user interface and tools. I can even see paying Novell like their mass server license - I pay for how many concurrent users I have on the system, unlimited servers. (So, for example, I can have 500 servers out there, and if I only need a 5 user license, I just pay Novell once for 5 users to administrate the boxes.)

    I think if Novell plays their cards right and goes for the "administrate, authenticate, and authorize" bit for Linux services, they can work with Linux to make a lot of money, and make Linux so Admin Friendly as to keep pushing that other desktop/server OS out of the market.

    Of course, I could be wrong. But... isn't it nice to dream....

    1. Re:About time by PaulBeelee · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I work with Novell stuff ALOT, and I find that Linux zealots (of which I am one) often have no idea what it is Novell brings to the "enterprise". Regarding your points, NetWare 5.x came with a JAVA tool called ConsoleOne which can be used to administer the "Tree". Novell has continued to push everything in that direction, and rely less on NWadmin. BTW, NetWare 5 was out in '98 or '99. Last year I loaded up ConsoleOne on a Redhat box at work and was able to admin my Tree. That was huge. I then went to google and sourceforge and started scanning the web for a NetWare client, that could use IP and not IPX (since with NetWare 5 Novell went to a native IP stack, no longer needed IPX). Saddly I found nothing good at all. I haven't looked since, I hope there is something out now so that I can log into an NDS tree from a Linux workstation. Further, I tried setting up a NetWare volume on that Linux box, that was not even close to working. So, if they have solved the Linux as a workstation, and Linux as a server in the NDS Tree issues, I will bounce off the wall with joy. One last point, Novell is still HUGE in some areas, law firms, some government agencies, etc. Embracing Linux gives Novell a continued upgrade path and future, which was becoming harder and harder to justify as Novell lost more and more mindshare. So this is a huge move for Novell's survival.

    2. Re:About time by llamalicious · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You're on to something DP

      NWAdmin's tool was so powerful, we migrated all of our SAM-based NT domains 4.0 to NDS for NT 2.0 on Novell 4.x in as OU's in the primary tree. (No small task, this was at the number 1 largest air conditioning company in the world no less.)

      Nothing better than having a single interface to manage all your organizations accounts and permissions, especially NWAdmin.

      Now, apply that to linux/*nix services across the board, and you've got a winner. Albeit a most likely expensive, commercial winner...

    3. Re:About time by sphealey · · Score: 4, Funny
      I work with Novell stuff ALOT, and I find that Linux zealots (of which I am one) often have no idea what it is Novell brings to the "enterprise".
      Agreed. There seems to be a sub-optimal level of understanding in the Linux world concerning enterprise directory and management requirements. I think it is telling that many large enterprises which have gone 98% Microsoft for desktops and servers have retained NDS as their directory management system. It is a tool which is not easily replaced, and implemented well on Linux it could prove a key element in enterprise deployment.

      sPh

    4. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Hi,

      Rest assured, all that you want is there. With Novell Account Management and eDirectory you really have this "click click click" and that user has the correct access rights across all your servers and workstations.

      Using Novell iManager, you have a tool to manage everything that Novell offers you. It is based on SOAP so nothing prevents you from scripting it with Perl::SOAP

      Way to go Novell !

    5. Re:About time by AmigaBen · · Score: 1

      First thing to keep in mind, is that NWAdmin has been superceded, for better or worse, by the java tool ConsoleOne.

      The other thing to keep in mind is that, at least in the environment I work in, one of the massive strengths I see in Novell's stuff has nothing to do with File and Print Management. I've always seen these as the reason it was silly to still use Novell. User Administration is very slick with NWAdmin, but one of their really cool toys is ZENWorks for Desktops. The ability to take the user and workstation administration one step further and have almost complete control over a windoze box and what it does and doesn't allow, etc.

      I must say, I'm surprised that their are no OpenSource linux equivalents to several of the Novell tools. Probably due to the environments that linux has grown up in. Maybe we'll have an OpenSource project for a lot of this stuff now. :)

      --
      +5 Insightful, really!
    6. Re:About time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      don't you just love novell :-)
      and novell just loves the diverity of operating systems, just like most customers do; have the right tool for the right job.
      extending novell services to more and more operating systems is the novell trend of the past few years already.

      Your answers:

      1. the 'kick ass admin tool' is ConsoleOne, either hate it, or learm how to use it :-) but... they put all their effort in creating more and more tools for web based management. I've heard they are checking the snapins for apache etc. but i think this will be available in a netware environment (prob. first in 6.5) at first. i can imagine linux will follow. Consoleone runs also on linux and is java based.

      2. this is already the case. read about Account Management (create and manage users on multiple linux/netware/w2k boxen at once, ZenWorks for Servers (policy mangement, scheduling, directory synchronisation using rsync, rpm patch management etc), eDirectory for linux (and many more OS too)

      the licensing scheme of eDirectory related stuff is on a per-user base. have as many servers as you want. users authenticate to the eDirectory, not on a per-server basis.

      furthermore, netmail (lightweight e-mail system scalable to hundreds of thousands of users per cpu ) ofcourse runs already on linux. they are planning to have linux support for their collaboration software GroupWise ready in the next year.

      i can go on and on, but if you want to read some more, go check their presentations of brainshare 2003: http://www.novell.com/brainshare/scps/controller/c atalog

      regards,
      mibur

    7. Re:About time by inode_buddha · · Score: 1

      Yeah, dreams like that are cool. Things in this space of the market could get interesting real quick, since RedHat now wants to do their own java thing, but I don't know what kind of relationship they have with Novell.

      --
      C|N>K
    8. Re:About time by edbarrett · · Score: 1
      With this, merge the strength of Linux's "no license fee" with Novell's admin/directory tools. I want to have a server I can throw 5, 500, 50000 users on and not worry about licensing - and I just pay Novell for the user interface and tools.

      Unfortunately, if licensing for NetWare 6 is any indication, that's not going to work:

      (from the NetWare 6 FAQ)

      Q. My customer has workstations in which more than one person shares across shifts. How many licenses will they need?
      A. Each person which accesses the software services must have a unique NDS user object created for them, and each of these objects need a licenses. So if three people share the same computer across shifts, each person must have a unique NDS user object, and three licenses are needed to cover them.

      Q. Will a person who has two or more different user objects assigned to them need multiple licenses?
      A. Yes. A person who has multiple unique user IDs assigned to them will need a license for each different ID.
      AFAICT, NetWare 6 (sans licenses) is essentially free. It's the user licenses that'll getcha.
  23. Re:Legacy users only? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    That is correct. Everyone who thinks Active Directory is so great needs to take a look at NDS and Zenworks. Novell's problem is marketing - they can't seem to sell their products. But their products are excellent. Except Bordermanager, which blows donkeys IMO.

  24. In other news by carm$y$ · · Score: 3, Funny

    Novell customers reacted positively to the news that they would have the choice of running Novellâ(TM)s network services on Linux or NetWare or both

    In other news, IBM announced they'll give their customers the chance to run OS/2 on AS/600.

    --
    -- No sig today
  25. Novell already relies on Linux by select+*+from · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is cool news, and definitely a step in the right direction. Their ZENworks package already relies on Linux to support workstation imaging. You can create boot disks/CDs to install the support partition on the client PC for imaging operations. Parts of ZENworks are written in Java (actually runs under a virtual machine on the Netware box), so moving them to Linux would probably be fairly trivial as well. Looks like they made a couple good choices back then that will pay off in the future.

  26. support by meshko · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I can't say I'm a big fan of Novell's support, but I'm somewhat impressed with parts of their products. They, I think, make more sense in enterprise than Windows-based solutions and this new direction will also help Linux a lot because Linux really doesn't have much to offer in the area of enterprise organization (I don't think pure LDAP solutions are powerful enough, but I might be wrong).
    This will also mean more products on Linux as a lot of companies which already support NetWare will have to move in Linux direction.

    --
    I passed the Turing test.
    1. Re:support by nick_urbanik · · Score: 1
      (I don't think pure LDAP solutions are powerful enough, but I might be wrong).

      We use OpenLDAP with RH 7.3 running on a dual P-III to support computer accounts for our 1000+ student accounts, and the same machine shares out the home directories, as well as being the DHCP, DNS and web server, and it seems reasonable to me, though I want to up the horsepower a bit.

    2. Re:support by meshko · · Score: 1

      Yes, my school has a similar setup and LDAP solutions work great for a simple university environment. When I'm talking about enterprise I mean an enterprise structure on three continents where you want to keep the distributed network synchronized, replicated etc. Novell does that reasonably well.

      --
      I passed the Turing test.
    3. Re:support by flacco · · Score: 2, Interesting
      (I don't think pure LDAP solutions are powerful enough, but I might be wrong).

      I think the problem with a lot of linux tools for implementing "enterprise" solutions is that they tend to require that the admin know every little detail about each component technology in that solution. in an ideal sense, this is good because it encourages learning. in the realistic sense, it means that a potential convert ends up saying "Fuck this noise" and reaches for the fuzzy-feely-pointy-clicky thing that proprietary vendors will happily sell them. sometimes you don't want to have to memorize the ldap spec just get a centralized account/auth database up and running.

      A teeny little bit of hand-holding (and a teensy bit less scorn and patronization) would go a long way to lubricating linux's deep, deep penetration into the enterprise, especially among mid-size businesses.

      --
      pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
  27. Have a proof-read on me! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Unlike SCO , who just cry foul when they realize that they are not going to make it, Novell knows that, for servers, Linux is where the money is. They are now (a little late) putting some effort into it.

    The last time I looked at a Novell System was 4 years ago, but it ran a modified version of MS DOS. Although it was a pretty stable system I always thought if they would just port their tools to Linux they could have a good competing system and actually get new customers instead of just hanging on to their current base.

    Remember, you can overuse commas when you should break it into seperate sentences, but you can also overuse periods. (The tenses of verbs should also agree, it helps to make the sentence more coherent.)

    You may now flame me for any errors I made.
  28. Re:Legacy users only? by Latent+IT · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Except Bordermanager, which blows donkeys IMO.

    Maybe it does blow donkeys, but I've got it as an http proxy for 1,000 simultaneous users right now - I think that's pretty darn good. And it used to crash a whole lot, but it was a hardware problem - 45 days up, and climbing fast. So sad that so many of those users are looking at pictures of...

    People... blowing... donkeys?

    Christ, these internet logs scare me. Over 130 MB/day, too.

  29. Why Companies Support Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    When you think about it for a moment, companies more than likely don't support Linux because it's technically superior to what's out there or costs less. Beleive it or not, it's true.

    Why does IBM support Linux? So they can sell more consulting, hardware and software, their bread and butter. How about Dell? More hardware, more choices of consumer OS. How about HP? Same as IBM. What about Oracle, Veritas, WebLogic and Novell? To sell more of their software.

    I'm not saying Linux is the best solution for every need, but I'm not saying it's the worst either. Just keep in mind when you see companies cheering on Linux it may not be because it's Linux, but because it can provide more revenue for the company's products that produce the majority (or all) of their revenue.

    1. Re:Why Companies Support Linux by flacco · · Score: 1
      I'm not saying Linux is the best solution for every need,

      WITCH! Burn him!

      --
      pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
  30. Accessing Novell apps in Linux? by nick_drake · · Score: 1

    I work in a university environment that uses Novell applications for logging on to our intranet. Does anyone here know how (or if it's possible) to access the university's network (for GroupWise and/or printing) within a Linux OS? (I don't want to ask our tech department, as I'm afraid they might not like me installing Linux on my machine.)

    --
    The Dude abides.
    1. Re:Accessing Novell apps in Linux? by Phil+the+Canuck · · Score: 1

      Depends. There won't be a "real" GroupWise client for Linux until later this year. Depending on how they've configured GroupWise, you may be able to access it via a standard POP client.

      As for printing, NDPS supports LPR, and setting it up is trivial. Whether or not your admins have checked that particular box, well, good luck.

    2. Re:Accessing Novell apps in Linux? by stonebeat.org · · Score: 1

      if you have NDPS environment, you can use IPP printing to print to a Novell Printer.

  31. SALVAGE SALVAGE SALVAGE by achilstone · · Score: 3, Informative

    The only good reason to use Novell is it's BULLET PROOF file system with proper file access control and the excellent file undelete utility SALVAGE though other companies have caught up since the last time I used Novell as a Sys Admin in '98, I've yet to see any other x86 network OS with a standard utility like SALVAGE which can undelete files regardless of the application which deleted them.

    It's worth the thousands it cost for the licenses when the research dept deletes a days worth of work which hasn't been backed up yet while tidying up their server files.

    Try undeleting a file on an NT server which was deleted by a DOS client or a Windows application file browser... ouch painfull.

    Those files in the NT recycle bin are only there because the app e.g. Explorer put them there not by the OS.

    1. Re:SALVAGE SALVAGE SALVAGE by WickedLittleSlaveBoy · · Score: 1

      that was one of the good features of Netware. MS added the shadow copy feature in Windows 2003, but it pretty much just takes a snapshot of the share at user defined intervals, so it isn't quite the same.

      it could be easy to script something similiar for Linux shares, but it really isn't much more useful than a good tape backup.

    2. Re:SALVAGE SALVAGE SALVAGE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heh, "salvage". I haven't typed that in a long time. Since Netware 4 salvage has been bundled into filer.

    3. Re:SALVAGE SALVAGE SALVAGE by ashitaka · · Score: 1

      A good tape backup??? You must be joking.

      Our secretaries are continually overwriting old versions of documents when they should have created a new version. When we had Novell I would just fire up salvage and restore the overwritten version in minutes.

      Restoring from last-night's backup takes much longer and doesn't work if they had made other changes to the document before the creating the new version. With Salvage I could pick from several deleted versions over time.

      I'd like to see someone add this functinoality to a Linux FS.

      --
      If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
    4. Re:SALVAGE SALVAGE SALVAGE by WickedLittleSlaveBoy · · Score: 1

      actually, I was commenting on MS trying to pass their shadow copy feature off as offering the same functionality. you'd have seen that if you everything I posted instead of just that sentence.

    5. Re:SALVAGE SALVAGE SALVAGE by bonius_rex · · Score: 1
      Those files in the NT recycle bin are only there because the app e.g. Explorer put them there not by the OS

      Windows Server 2003 has finally caught up, and includes a Salvage-like utility called "Shadow Copy

      Better late than never, I guess :-)

    6. Re:SALVAGE SALVAGE SALVAGE by SubtleNuance · · Score: 1

      I believe that *has* been done, I read once that versioning ala VMS was done on Lignux. Every time you save a version, it creates a new file (test.txt;1 test.txt;2...test.txt;99 -- *;99 being newest). If you periodically killed the old version (purge * --keep=2) you could keep the files 'current. Just dont allow people to see/delete older versions of the file w/out admin privs of some kind

    7. Re:SALVAGE SALVAGE SALVAGE by WarpForge · · Score: 1
      I've yet to see any other x86 network OS with a standard utility like SALVAGE which can undelete files regardless of the application which deleted them.

      Windows Server 2003 has file shadowing services that allow restoration of previous versions. This, however, requires a 2000 or XP (to the best of my knowledge) with the shadowing software installed. Another option is Executive Software's Undelete, which covers deletions of all types, including the ones you mentioned.

    8. Re:SALVAGE SALVAGE SALVAGE by askegg · · Score: 1

      It gets better with Netware 6.5 - Full file versioning in the system. Imagine being able to restore a previous version of the file you were working on because you stuffed it up !

      --
      I don't make predictions, and I never will.
  32. Re:Legacy users only? by fritz1968 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Is there any reason for anyone to consider using it...

    Here are a few reasons:

    With ZenWorks, you can lock down a users' W2K or XP workstation, deploy/install applications and printers without leaving your desk and remote control their PC if they are having a problem (technical support).

    With groupwise, you have all the functionality of any other Enterprise level Email system. With the security of GroupWise, you have less worries with some of the Virus' that can plague many of the MS Email systems.

    The Directory Services of Novell is far superiour of any other company's, mostly because it is more mature (going on what... 9, 10 years now?). Novell's eDirectory can handle about a billion objects in the Tree. Maybe more now, I am not sure

    Of course, Novell NetWare runs pure IP or a mixed IPX/IP environment if you want. Since 5.0, NetWare has had IP natively.

    --
    It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.
  33. Who cares! by Ridgelift · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Who cares! Linux doesn't need Novell, or Microsoft for that matter.

    I earned my Novell CNE (Certified NetWare Engineer) back in 1996, and since then watched Microsoft's Windows NT steadily eat away their market share. Novell succeeded back in the 80's and early 90's because they filled a need. It didn't matter that their support was bad or their marketing non-existent, because at one time NetWare was the only game in town. But they lost their market share to Microsoft because they did not improve their support or their marketing.

    But times have changed. Microsoft may be the leader now, and although they do a good job of marketing, their support is awful, mostly because their products are bloated piles of spagetti code. I ditched working with NetWare because I can do everything and more with NT, and then I ditched NT because I can do everything and more with Linux and can support it or make changes without things blowing up. Linux will never have the marketing that Microsoft has, but it doesn't need it because word of mouth and an ever improving product is the best form of advertising.

    Sorry Novell. Sorry Microsoft. You treated guys like me who paid thousands of dollars for your certifications like crap for years, so we left and decided to write our own. Linux doesn't need Novell or Microsoft to succeed in the long run. Anyone who says different hasn't worked in the industry long enough.

    1. Re:Who cares! by Ath · · Score: 1

      You need to see a doctor to have that chip removed from your shoulder. Anyone who suggests that Novell's products and services can be replaced by Windows or Linux is clearly just inexperienced or unwilling to accept alternatives. Tell me what product competes with ZENworks for client management? Tell me what product competes with Netware's file management? Tell me what product competes with NDPS for printer management? Tell me what competes with eDirectory for user authentication, identification and authorization? Speaking of eDirectory, if you only see eDirectory as a user or network management tool, you should try opening your eyes. Do you think Yahoo uses eDirectory for that purpose? No, they use it to know who you are and what kind of content you both want and should get. None of that even speaks to eDirectory's robustness with partitions and replicas. Too many people stopped looking at Novell because they saw it as the "old stuff" and boring. But it's not. It's really downright cool. ZENworks itself makes application distribution fun.

    2. Re:Who cares! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Microsoft may be the leader now, and although they do a good job of marketing, their support is awful, mostly because their products are bloated piles of spagetti code.

      You don't know that. There are plenty of reasons to dislike MS without becoming just as bad as them by making stuff up.

      ditched NT because I can do everything and more with Linux and can support it or make changes without things blowing up.

      Only to the easy stuff, I'll bet.

      we left and decided to write our own.

      "We"? You didn't have anything to do with it.

  34. Fire Phasers in Novell. by Nick+Driver · · Score: 4, Funny
    1. Re:Fire Phasers in Novell. by Phil+the+Canuck · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ah, that takes me back. The joy of rigging someone's login script with an infinite loop of phasers...

    2. Re:Fire Phasers in Novell. by hpavc · · Score: 1

      does anyone know where i can get a copy of these wonderful phasers sound files of old ... wow ... memories

      --
      members are seeing something, your seeing an ad
    3. Re:Fire Phasers in Novell. by Phil+the+Canuck · · Score: 1

      The good old phasers sound (midi?) has been replaced by phasers.wav, which can be found on your friendly neighborhood NetWare server in /public/client/win95/ibm_enu.

    4. Re:Fire Phasers in Novell. by hpavc · · Score: 1

      yeah, sadly i dont have access to one anymore.

      --
      members are seeing something, your seeing an ad
    5. Re:Fire Phasers in Novell. by Sloppy · · Score: 1
      In spite of that documentation, the original phasers sound wasn't from a "sound file" at all. It was just LOGIN.EXE directly banging the speaker in a variable-timed loop. And the timing was a function of CPU speed, so phasers sounded a lot different on that blazing new 12 MHz 286 than on your old "Turbo" 8086 XT clone.

      I suppose you could hold a mic up to the speaker and record it, but --*shudder*-- first-generation analog lossiness! What would the audiophiles say?!? And even then, your recording would just be one machine's rendition of the phasers, not the platonic essense within LOGIN.EXE itself.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    6. Re:Fire Phasers in Novell. by divide+overflow · · Score: 1
      does anyone know where i can get a copy of these wonderful phasers sound files of old ... wow ... memories

      From Novell's APPNOTES:

      Playing .WAV Sound Files. Longtime NetWare users may be familiar with the FIRE PHASERS login script command that generates a sound during the processing of the login script. NetWare Client 32 ships with a PHASERS.WAV sound file that is played by default when the FIRE PHASERS command is issued in login script.

      Once again, Google provides the answer if you know how to ask the question.
    7. Re:Fire Phasers in Novell. by leonbrooks · · Score: 1

      Yes, you do. Haven't you been told yet? (-:

      --
      Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  35. Question by Total_Wimp · · Score: 2, Interesting

    When Apple becomes Unix and Novell becomes Unix should we really be referring to them as "competing OSes" anymore?

    If all I'm doing is providing body panels and upholstery I'm not going to be calling myself an auto manufacturer.

    TW

  36. Novell supporting Linux.. by xchino · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It seems that Novell is really and truly dedicated to the OSS community. I didn't know until I looked at their page, but Novell is offering a Linux certification, the CLE (Certified Linux Engineer) apparently somewhat equivalent to the LPI cert (at least that's what they recommend for studying), but also including Novell Nterprise services for Linux.

    This has got to be the smartest marketing Novelll has ever done. (Any of you familiar with Novell know how absolutely BAD they are at marketing). I actually have a renewed interest in Novell products, and I may just dust off my CNE cert and hang it on my wall proudly, rather than hiding it at the bottom of my underwear drawer where no man but me dares tread. A CNE and a CLE might look nice together on a resume.

    --
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
  37. F*****g Late by Delifisek · · Score: 0

    Arrrhhhh. It have to around in 1998 or 1999. God damnit its late.

    And if Novell successfully migrate nds with oss services there is so much hope for both novell and linux.

    --
    [My english is better than most other people's Turkish, so please point out mistakes politely. Thank you.]
  38. cool by oohp · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Hey, Novell had the most fine-grained access control and nicest directory services implementation. Don't know if that's still the case with Active Directory around, but I'd really use Novell on Linux to do file and print services for Windoze boxes rather than Windows 2000 or 2003. I've also heard it scales very well. It came a bit late but it's still a great thing. With SCO spreading FUD around, the timing of this release proves that Novell trusts the Linux platform, so their release may add a plus of credibility as well.

  39. Secret project? Yes Actual product? No by dcavanaugh · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I would be shocked if Microsoft didn't have a large groups of people studying Linux; they may very well have their own internal distro. Considering that M$ needs all the security help it can get, NSA would be a good base for such a thing.

    The real goal of M$ Linux would be to take concepts that work and port them back to Windows, so as to reinforce the monopoly in the places where it is crumbling. They might try to use marketing magic to bring some of the NSA credibility to Windows, although they are a long way from having a product that would remain secure long enough to make the effort worthwhile.

    Microsoft is a mature IT company. They have to hold onto Windows because any other technology will cannibalize their revenue stream faster than new customers can replenish it. They face a dilemma in that competitors are free to bring their Linux submarines to periscope depth and launch torpedoes at the M$ battleship.

    There may be a point in the future when some other technology undercuts or outperforms Linux and the Red Hats of the world have grown to a size where they can't adopt the new stuff without killing their existing base.

  40. groupwise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I hope my school updates netware services to linux base asap, currently the novell services work every second day if you're lucky

    1. Re:groupwise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      go fix it for them, dumbass

  41. Mushy? No. 'n' is an important char indeed. by Eric_Cartman_South_P · · Score: 1
    pr0n

  42. debian advocacy by oohp · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There is a poll on the page with "what Linux distribution do you use". Debian got a lot of votes (more than SuSE). As RedHat and SuSE Enterprise Server software doesn't come cheap, I suggest that people who like Debian should go vote. Maybe Novell will support Debian as well. Think about it -- the platform OS will come at zero cost.

    1. Re:debian advocacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I noticed that too (when I voted debian). I can understand the initial support for rh advanced and suse enterprize, since those are stable api, non-moving target versions of each distribution. By the same token, debian stable fits that exact same standard. I'm hoping they actually look at this poll and realize "the only difference between rh/as and debian is a few config file locations, and that we'd have to build a .deb instead of an RPM." I for one would consider spending actual $$ here at my workplace for their products (we're using netware for file & print now, linux for web and other server junk, and windows for clients), but it kind of defeats the point if I have to switch distributions and throw away all the knowledge we've built up around managing debian installs.

  43. Oh, yeah... dinosaur agencies by r_j_prahad · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Government endorsement isn't a positive in this case. You've chosen as an example a recalcitrant, entrenched, slow-to-learn, aging workforce. That's why those people use Netware, not because it's better than the rest but because it's all they know and if it doesn't put more money into their pension they could give a shit less.

    1. Re:Oh, yeah... dinosaur agencies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You appear to have missed the other examples.

  44. Re:People Still Use Novell? by Ath · · Score: 4, Informative
    No, but they use Netware, eDirectory, ZENworks, Portal and many other products that the company Novell sells.

    Does anyone wonder how personal biases get introduced into business decisions? Maybe when people decide to completely disregard all products from a company for no reason other than their ignorance of those products.

    Just to prove it, go look at the capabilities of the DirXML product from Novell. Then I can explain how our HR department processes a new hire and DirXML automatically creates the network account, portal account, email account and gives access to all appropriate backend systems seamlessly. And then it keeps everything in sync.

  45. This little tete-a-tete between Novell an SCO... by NTT · · Score: 1

    reminds me of the cartoon where the pelican is eating the frog that has it's hands (??) around the pelican's throat.

  46. Does anyone wonder...? by r_j_prahad · · Score: 2, Funny

    Does anyone wonder how personal biases get introduced into business decisions?

    The most bigoted person I've ever met in my thirty year career was a Novell MCSE. He makes old VMS zealots look like OSS proponents. This guy is so slobberingly in worship of Novell I swear to $DEITY he's just a breath away from strapping on a vest full of C4 and walking into somebody's Microsoft server room.

    1. Re:Does anyone wonder...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Novell MCSE? ummm interesting trick that

    2. Re:Does anyone wonder...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Novell administrator certifications are CNA and CNE.

    3. Re:Does anyone wonder...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Sounds like you might know my old mate Smithy.

      An absolute genius on Netware, Groupwise, Zenworks, etc., but refused ever to touch Microsoft servers.

      Great guy - and the inventor of the DILLIGAF (Do I Look Like I Give A ...) acronym.

    4. Re:Does anyone wonder...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hate to tell you this, but there's NO SUCH THING as a Novell MCSE

    5. Re:Does anyone wonder...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Novell doesn't have, and to my knowledge never had an MCSE. You're probably thinking of their CNE cert.

      And for what it's worth, he probably has a reason for the worship. Depending on the situation (of course), Netware can be the most rock solid NOS you can get. There's a reason why some people are still using versions of the software which are 8+ years old.

  47. Price will be cheaper than you think.... by rockabilly · · Score: 1

    " The problem is, this ain't gonna be cheap, especially if you buy one of the enterprise Linux's mentioned."

    Who do you think will buy this product? Certainly not "Mom and Pop" shops. Novell is offering solutions to 'Enterprises'. That being those companies who have performed the necessary feasability studies and confirmed that Linux is the way to go. Its those companies who don't see the enterprise Linux license to be all that expensive compared to what else is available.

    Novell will probably offer a 'per seat' license scheme for its products and bunch them together as an all-in-one pack. To the enterprise who has just committed to Linux servers, Novell's solutions will be cheap beyond comparison.

  48. Distributed User Management by phorm · · Score: 1

    Indeed, what I'm really looking for is a nicer way of managing a distributed user-base. Maybe there are better solutions for 'nix that I haven't seen... but currently one of the more common ones is still *ugh* NIS. Novell used to have some pretty sweet stuff for user-management, and their rights-management was decent too.

    Of course, I replaced all those expen$ive novell $ervers as soon as I could... but I do look forward to seeing Novell finally get a hook into Linuxland and expect that they will make a product/products people will find is worth paying for.

  49. Two fingers? by ashitaka · · Score: 4, Funny

    You are British, yes?

    North Americans are more efficient. We only need to use one finger.

    --
    If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
    1. Re:Two fingers? by flacco · · Score: 1
      North Americans are more efficient. We only need to use one finger.

      could have been an american using both hands. toward sco? i know i would.

      --
      pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
  50. Is this needed? by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    .. Since we already have native OLDAP and SMB, do we really need to run Novell services on *nix?

    Not saying there may not be a need, i just am not aware of one..

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  51. Mounting Netware volumes without IPX by Phishcast · · Score: 1
    This is available...

    1. Install ncpfs
    2. mount -t ncpfs -o ipserver=my.netwarebox.edu,otheroptions=etc,etc

    I mount several Netware server volumes via fstab. These are NDS and not bindery conections.

  52. I, for one, am a happy boy. by mj01nir · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm sure that many of you regarded this news with a muffled yawn. But this is really good news for me. I've been supporting NetWare for a decade now. I actually install new NetWare networks. That's right, new. I've been using and installing Linux for a couple of years as well. With each new NetWare release, I've needed to evaluate if it's worth it to me to maintain my CNE and Gold status. But business keep coming to me for NetWare expertise.

    Now I can have the best of both worlds. I actually prefer to work with Linux. NetWare can be frustrating, but it's bulletproof when it's setup correctly. Linux seems to be more forgiving in many ways. Plus the wide variety of software for Linux (there are, what, 6 different widely-used MTAs alone?) means I can accomplish more with the platform.

    This news kept my largest NetWare client from moving to all-Windows servers. The client had been intrigued with Linux, but didn't feel comfortable using it in production. Now they won't have a problem with it. In their eyes, Linux is ligitimate now. I'm sure they aren't the only ones.

    --
    the no .sig .sig
  53. Banyan did this YEARS ago by dl4grc · · Score: 1

    Banyan VINES ran on Unix (probably would have on LInux had it been around) in the early 90s and had an intergrated directory service (StreetTalk), email, chat, file/print services. Is interesting that now Novell is moving toward a similar platform. Its too bad that Banyan didn't open source their software when they got out of the NOS business.

    1. Re:Banyan did this YEARS ago by R3 · · Score: 1

      "Its too bad that Banyan didn't open source their software when they got out of the NOS business."
      Could it be because Jim Allchin went to Microsoft and used parts of Street Talk as the basis for Active Directory?

    2. Re:Banyan did this YEARS ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      VINES ran on UNIX System 5 in the early 1980's, they came out with StreetTalk for Solaris in the early 90's, as an additional product. That would be the stuff to port over. It's not going to happen though, I believe, because StreetTalk is what is behind Switchboard, which is still being marketed.


      When they came out with StreetTalk for NT, that was a sign that the end was coming, then Alchin sold his soul to BillGatus.

  54. Learn the phrase... by Dasein · · Score: 1

    sunk cost

    --
    You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake -- but you could be if you got off your ass.
  55. Check out Guinevere for GroupWise. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A very nice anti-virus application that scans the mail coming into your GroupWise domain from the Internet.

    I have it here and it works great. The only downside is that it has to run on a Windows workstation or server.

  56. pointless by hndrcks · · Score: 1

    Think about this concept:

    "Microsoft Active Directory for Linux"

    Think of all the reasons you wouldn't buy that. Then tell me why Novell services on Linux are such a grand idea.

    --
    Everyone will start to cheer when you put on your sailin' shoes.
    1. Re:pointless by R3 · · Score: 1

      First off, Novell services for Linux is much more than directory alone, although NDS is the central point.

      Reasons why I wouldn't buy MSAD for Linux:

      - MS would never release it, since they perceive Linux as their No.1 threat
      - from my experience working with AD, it is not as robust and scalable as NDS, not to mention the maturity level. (Novell started with NDS back in 1993, first shipping version of AD came out in 2000, but was virtually unusable until SP1) AD also needs a lot more hardware to accomplish the same thing NDS does (again, think thousands of directory objects-users, printers, OUs..., not a single 20-people office)

      Reasons why I would buy NetWare services on Linux:

      - Novell's reputation. Yes, they are bad at marketing, but they do have good products that actually work. They also seem to understand how the networks *really* work and what people do on them and make products to fill those needs, as opposed to trying to push whatever marketing drones think of
      - Novell's commitment to Linux/OSS. Yes, they are doing this in order to compete, but if they are playing nice and continue doing so, what's bad about it?
      - Other products in this suite, especially ZENWorks. You might be able to get by administering applications on 50+ client network by hand, try that with 1000+ or bigger, with multiple locations/operating systems accross WAN. Show me one product on Linux that can do it today.
      - Need for products like this in Linux space. Linux is cool and there are tons of free solutions around, but to truly compete, we need established software makers both contributing and competing on Linux platform.

    2. Re:pointless by divide+overflow · · Score: 1
      Think about this concept:

      "Microsoft Active Directory for Linux"

      Think of all the reasons you wouldn't buy that. Then tell me why Novell services on Linux are such a grand idea.

      It is a grand idea because no current Linux distribution provides all the features and functions of Novell services, certainly not as well as Novell does. Options are good. You can take 'em or leave 'em.
    3. Re:pointless by SubtleNuance · · Score: 1

      umm, because Microsoft != Novell?

      MS would use AD to kill Desktop Linux or Both. Novell has room for Desktop Linux. Making it at least 1/2 times better bed-fellow.

    4. Re:pointless by thehunger · · Score: 2, Informative
      Why use Novell's alternative?

      Well if we take the directory alone, then:

      • Scales to millions and millions of objects
      • Supports just about every method of accces, including LDAP, JDBC, ODBC, C, C++, Delphi, Visual Basic, Java, JNDI, SOAP, DSML, RADIUS, HTTP, SSL, XML, PHP, Perl, etc
      • Is 100% standards, ie. TRUE LDAP v3 not like AD
      • Has builtin, fault-tolerant automatic replication and synchronization
      • Runs on Linux, Solaris, AiX, Windows, and possibly HP-UX in the near future
      • Can be managed through a Java GUI Admin tool or a -very- cool Web-based portal called iManager
      • Integrates with just about anything, including operating systems, databases, applications, HR systems, etc
      • Has true inheritance
      • Has granular access control
      • Is secure
      • Supports web services
      • Is a mature product in its ninth+ generation
      • Used by customers such as the French Tax Authority for 30 million users
      • and the Star Alliance which includes Lufthansa and United Airlines for global identity management
      • and CNN.com for personalized Ad banners on a huge scale
      • is used more than any other directory in the market
      • Can manage users, groups, applications, printers, desktops
      • Is supported software
      In other words, because nothing else comes close. Sure, you can probably think of some alternatives but anyone who does a technical evaluation will tell you this is THE directory to use.

      Now, do yourself and the company you work for a favor; get familiar with the products and then form an opinion. It's the professional thing to do. The geeky thing to do. The right thing to do.

      --
      Like if I gave you a .sig you would know what to do with it?

    5. Re:pointless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reasons why I wouldn't buy MSAD for Linux

      No. Microsoft Active Directory is not MSAD. It should be MAD.

    6. Re:pointless by hndrcks · · Score: 1

      hmmm. I read the Novell press and never saw mention of any Novell NDS source being opened... why would I lay a closed-source proprietary security model on top of my open-source operating system? What is the benefit? What happens when Novell retakes all the market share and decides the open-source hippies are stealing their potential OS revenue?

      Which was my point about Active Directory (but no one got the gist, obviously...)

      --
      Everyone will start to cheer when you put on your sailin' shoes.
    7. Re:pointless by hndrcks · · Score: 1

      Crap. The point I was making was:

      Why put any closed-source service as intricately tied to security as a directory service on top of Linux? It doesn't matter which is best. They are both great - and / or they both suck. I don't know, and I don't care. That's not my point. If it isn't open source, it's an unknown.

      --
      Everyone will start to cheer when you put on your sailin' shoes.
  57. Netware ACL Support by LanMan · · Score: 1

    I have been working with Netware server products for a few years (since 3.x) and I have to say that I love the admin utilities, etc. Nothing beats them (in NT or Linux) from a sysadmin point of view, especially when it comes to ACLs on volumes, directories or files. Mabye this will mean that we'll see better ACL support for files/directories under Linux? I know the Linux Trustees project attempts to duplicate this functionality, but its still a bit of a hack.

  58. Novell software for Mac OS X Server? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have met with several customers who run Novell Servers on Dell and Compaq who are inquiring about running Novell Solutions on top of Apple's new Xserve and Xserve RAID products.

    Has anyone seen or heard of Novell supporting their software to run on top of Apple's Unix systems (Mac OS X server)?

    With Apple's recent release of developer preview of Panther (Mac OS X v.10.3) which shows new support for Linux API's along being based off of FreeBSD 5.0 - what would it take to compile the apps from Novell to also run on these systems?

    Discussion Please?

    1. Re:Novell software for Mac OS X Server? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Novell is already working on releasing Novell® Nterpriseâ Mac OS X Services, giving customers file, print, messaging, directory and management services in an integrated package that runs and will be supported on the Xserve and Xserve RAID systems.

  59. I have to say I'm really happy to see this. by FatherBash · · Score: 1

    I work for a local small business IT consulting firm and have been trying to push my boss into offering more Linux solutions to our customers...We also do a LOT of Novell work. Every time I try to tell him that we can give them everything Microsoft or Novell can he throws groupware in my face. Let's face it folks, there's nothing in the free software world (I say free software rather than open source because Suse makes OpenExchange and they charge for it) that can compare with the full groupware capabilities of Exchange or Groupwise that Joe Enduser can use from his Winblows box. Another thing that's been holding linux adoption back is the ease of administration. Customers won't take linux because they have to pay someone more than they can pay a crappy MSCE...well, Novell networks are far easier to administer than Linux (yes, I know, not for you and me, but they ARE for other people). Maybe I'm a little too excited, but finally, we'll have good competition for Exchange, a solid, robust directory structure in NDS/eDir and a vendor name you can tell your manager that he'll actually know who you're talking about! This is the nail in the coffin for BillG

  60. NetMail, not GroupWise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Novell's site says:

    "Internet Messaging and Calendaring that promote productive collaboration and easily scale to match your organization's growth."

    Well that doesn't sound like groupwise. That sounds like NetMail. For those of you that don't know Novell has two messaging solutions. NetMail is internet standards based, has run on Linux for years, and scales like nobodys business.

    http://www.novell.com/netmail

  61. Outlook plugin for GW (Re:Way to go Novell) by mousse-man · · Score: 1

    There's an Outlook plugin for GroupWise for the people whom the box is crashing or they decide they like Outlook better.

    If just Evolution had it too...

  62. Why is Novell Client so Slow? by s-orbital · · Score: 1

    I am just curious, but around our University, it seems that when Nov. Client is installed on machines, it will turn a 2GHz machine into a slow beast, that takes way to long to don anything? Any ideas on mhy this would happen?

    --
    Patent: from Latin patere, to be open
    1. Re:Why is Novell Client so Slow? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Configuration ;-)

      In the client 4.9 you will find a workaround which will grab request for sources and path them to the client32 and the ms requester. This should make it a install and forget solution.

      Problem at the moment is the way the mup.sys from MS handles requests to sources. You can tweak it a lot (that's why I said configuration) but still you see some slowness.

      Let's wait and see..

  63. Funny! But wave them at TSG, not SCO by leonbrooks · · Score: 1

    I'd like to grow a couple of extra arms so I can wave even more fingers, but remember to wave them at The SCO Group (TSG), not the Santa Cruz Operation (SCO), now Tarantella.

    SCO did nothing like threaten to "blow up" the GPL, TSG is a part of The Canopy Group who have a long history of suing people. Their official job description should be "suer", which is funnier said than read. TSG are referring to themselves as "SCO" to add to the confusion surrounding their claims.

    If we refer to them exclusively as TSG, this helps people to ask questions and make the connection: TSG did not write any code, they only bought a company (Tarantella, nee SCO) which did actually write code, but more importantly which had acquired some rights from Novell.

    In contrast to SCO, TSG are simply and only suers, they have never lifted a finger to create anything useful.

    Wave as many fingers, backsides, axes, whatever as you like, just so long as TSG cop the blame, and not the original SCO.

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  64. glad to hear Novell still kicking but.... by Monkius · · Score: 1

    That doesn't make investing in Novell atop Linux a good investment.

    This is the type of infrastructure functionality people should indeed be deploying on un-encumbered Linux, IMHO.

    --
    Matt
  65. OpenLDAP does a fair whack of X.500 already by leonbrooks · · Score: 1

    Why not contribute extension code to that?

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  66. A fowl blow by leonbrooks · · Score: 1
    Unlike SCO who just cries fowl when they realize that they are not going to make it

    Well, they seem to be playing "chicken" with IBM. Listen for the squark and thump, after which TSG (distinct from Tarantella nee SCO) will be a leaner organisation - about a millimeter thick, actually.

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  67. Weigh him first! by leonbrooks · · Score: 1

    I'll supply the duck.

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  68. 1000 concurrent users == yawn by leonbrooks · · Score: 1
    Before they lost a lot of their expertise, iiNet ran a single Pentium 200 (on 7 SCSI drives through 5 controllers) with Squid as their main web proxy. They built a replacement but didn't swap it out for months because it hadn't stopped. Ever. They finally swapped it when another outage temporarily killed off most of their dialup lines. It peaked at about 700 hits per second averaged over a minute with bursts to about 1000 hits per second. I have no real idea how many simultaneous users that represents, but am guessing at 10-15,000.

    And having worked for an ISP, I'd have to agree that about half (in bytes) of the web traffic there was porn. Hey users! Get a life!

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  69. File versioning under Linux by leonbrooks · · Score: 1

    Apparently this will do it.

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  70. Re:Legacy users only? by WarpForge · · Score: 1
    45 days up, and climbing fast

    The only way your uptime would climb more slowly is if you increased the server's proximity to a black hole.

  71. That was FlameBait? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Man these moderators need to have their perms revoked. I personally haven't seen a novell ad in a trade magazine for YEARS.

  72. Poll by zonix · · Score: 1

    There's a poll at their new Linux site.

    Let them know which distribution you use - maybe they'll take a hint?

    z
    --
    What would an EWOULDBLOCK block, if an EWOULDBLOCK could block would? -- me
  73. Yawn all you want. by Latent+IT · · Score: 1

    Yeah, but bordermanager is acting at least slightly more active than squid - in our case, it's authenticating each user against their NDS usernames using the client trust utility, and then logging each hit, with NDS info and all, keeping all that information, sort of forever. (I've got 2 years and counting.)

    And yes, CPU usage spikes to 2%. =p

    However, I peak at around 500-600 hits per second, so either your estimate may be off, or my users are more evil. Does it really matter?

  74. Yipeeeee by mashmorgan · · Score: 1

    At last me 2 favourate operating systems working in concert ;-)))))))))

  75. Re:Legacy users only? by gregmac · · Score: 1
    With ZenWorks, you can lock down a users' W2K or XP workstation, deploy/install applications and printers without leaving your desk and remote control their PC if they are having a problem (technical support).

    I setup a Netware-based network in a school a few years ago (just after Novell 5 came out, i think), never having used netware before. It took me about two weeks, but in the end, I had a very solid setup. Win95 workstations could be deployed from Norton Ghost on any machine in the building, all drivers would auto-detect etc. It would boot into the client setup, you enter it's name and network details, import it into the tree, and it's a functioning system. All applications were done using zenworks, which was just amazing. Apps could be assigned per-workstation/lab, or per-user/class. Very nice for students in a graphics class to be able to log on in the library (where there isn't normally a graphics app) and be able to do their work.

    Printer assignment was the same way, which was really nice. Teachers could print to any printer in the school, while students could only print to the nearest printer to the workstation they were on.

    I was amazed how well application distribution worked, and how well lock-down policys could apply. I tried setting up an ActiveDirectory-based network at a .com company not too much later, and it was garbage compared to Netware. (although I'm not a MSCE or anything). Although application distribution is very handy - espessially for getting a broken system running again - we ended up disabling it because it didnt work properly half the time. Maybe it was just me, but I had it working amazingly well on Netware the first time I used it (not to metion in an network 10 times the size), and this wasn't the first windows network I've installed.

    --
    Speak before you think
  76. Re:Legacy users only? by askegg · · Score: 1

    Lots of things in Windows 200 / AD do not work as expected or at all. I work for a global company that is trying very hard to use nothing but MS - they are finding it hard going....

    --
    I don't make predictions, and I never will.