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A Game of Thrones
But Martin does it by focusing not on one main character, but on a whole slew of them, each chapter a view from their perspective as events rage around them. Mainly around the Stark family, who's patriarch, Eddard Stark, is the Lord of Winterfell, a country to the far north who's job it is to keep up the Wall - think "Great Wall of China", only make it out of ice and stone. The Starks put a lot of stock in honor and duty, concept that must serve them well to survive a world where summers can last for years - and the winters even longer. Eddard has known war and battle once in his lifetime, when he and his best friend Robert lead an army to overthrow the Mad King almost a generation ago. Now, with his 5 children and 1 bastard child, he looks forward to a life ruling his castle in peace and training the next generation to be Starks.
Or he would, but when Robert comes calling asking Eddard to become the "Hand of the King", Eddard and his family are put into a living chess match, where loyalties shift like chameleon color, and sometimes, the pieces are lost forever. And with all the court intrigues, something dark, magical, and deadly hovers in the background, like an avalanche about to fall without warning.
What makes Martin's writing so compelling is his ability to tie us into a fictional world as fully realized as our own. It's a gritty and disturbing world, where royal families can marry brother to sister to keep bloodlines pure, Mongolian horde empires have their own brand of laws and morals, and a joust is as celebrated as a professional wrestling match - and far more dangerous. He does have a tendency to go overboard in describing the littlest detail of what armor one person is wearing and how it gleams in the sun with cloaks as soft or supple as sin (I think he used that phrase around 3 times in the book, and it was old the 2nd time), but its also those little attention to details that makes the world breath.
But more than his descriptions of the places and events are his writings about people. As I mentioned, each chapter is written from the point of view of a different character, so you get the perspective of Arya, the tomboy princess on moment, the next the view of Tyrion the Imp, dwarf (physically, not Ghimli) who's royal family opposes the Starks and reaches for the crown. Each character has their own strengths and weaknesses, things you love them for and things you hate them for. And as they interact with each other, you can see all the chess pieces on the board moving, wheels within wheels spinning as Martin brings you closer into the story, making you feel a connection with each of them - even the ones you are certain are less than moral or good. He also has no compunction about killing off main characters, which means you can't trust that the "Good Guys" will make off all right in the end.
It's a book about the love of family, how it can be twisted into something terrible and ugly, or used as a tie that binds together. It's a story about the price of honor, duty and loyalty, and what those words actually mean. It's a great book, and I'm eagerly looking forward to trying out the rest of the books in this series to see if they keep up the excellent quality of this one.
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After all... Winter is coming
So, anyway, beware: you'll be left hanging, much like a rotting corpse on a gibbet.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
It's a great series, because of its depth and interesting characters. The books are quite long, and get fairly complicated, but that just pleases the fan who only wants more. I'm really glad that the author took a B5-like approach of defining a definite beginning, middle, and end to the story rather than letting it roll out forever (like the inevitably compared Wheel of Time Books.
Anyhow, yes, it's good. Go and read them.
Just to get this out there for discussion:
If you think game of thrones was interesting, you're in for a few long nights when you get to storm of swords.
By far, "A song of Ice and Fire" is the best fantasy I've read, with the exception of Tolkien. And that's including such auspicious titles as "the dark tower" series and the first 4 dunes.
Simply the most enjoyable books I've read in the past 15 years.
~Wx
sig?
Martin is an excellent writer, and the Song of FIre and Ice series in particular is highly reccommended.
One aspect of his writing I particularly like is the moral ambiguity of his characters. There are no clear-cut "good guys" and "bad guys". What bad guys there are are sympathetic characters, and have understandable motives, and the good guys aren't your typical fantasy heroes. They're human, they have a dark side, and they don't always do the right thing.
All in all, if you're a fan of the genre, you won't be disappointed, and even if you're not he's well worth checking out.
Jurisprudence Fetishist Gets Off On A Technicality --theonion.com
Does this individual have a first name, perhaps George? Or is this someone else entirely, and it's now in fashion to just use our initials *cough* Rowling *cough*?
And if it is George, anyone have any idea if they're ever gonna resurrest the Wild Cards series?
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
Dude, this is a good review, but PLEASE take the time to read it over before you submit it!
Run-on sentances, you start sentances with conjuntions, the first sentance of the review appears to be referring to SOMETHING, but I'm not sure what...
Just spend the time to read it over and have someone else read it. Sorry, I'm really anal about these things.
Anyone who posts about bad moderation are themselves off-topic and should be moderated accordingly.
I love a song of ice and fire. Its the best series I have ever read, and I've read all three books over 5 times now. Its frustrating to see the release date of A Feast for Crows (book 4) keep being pushed back however.. now I think it is slated to be released in April 2004.. which is about the 10th time the release date has been pushed back.. Sigh. oh well, I love martin and am willing to wait for books of this quality.
Is it worthy of reading while on the throne?
Not avaible from Project Gutenberg yet, eh? Well... I guess I will have to wait a couple years... I hope the wait is worth it, or else...
;)
Or maybe I could get it in school after the summer... too long, can not wait. I guess I have to sink to the level of pirating books, hmm a better name: bookz
If I were an author I would be really happy if I knew that people were pirating... well... if more people buy it than download of course...
Hmm... bootleg books, I think not.
Don't think DeVito and Michael Douglas, think Richard III vs Henery VII. This book is essentially that tale be playing out in a fantasy setting
I did enjoy them. As you can imagine the political strategies in the book are numerous. It's also a nice read because good guys don't generally come out on top. They don't come back from the dead. An all powerfull wizard doesn't make it all right. And a lone wolf doesn't come in from the cold and fix everything use talents he didn't know he had. This book is harsh, but a good read.
-malakai
-Malakai
A Dragon Lives in my Garage
Is he complimenting himself there?
This has to be the best series I've ever read, and I stand by them always. GRRM's site points to the 4th one coming along, hopefully by fall *crosses fingers*. But the feeling I get from the series is that he planned it as a trilogy, and had an in depth plan for the whole series, and things just started taking too long. You can tell this by the fact that the prologue in the first book doesn't even begin to be realized until midway through the third book. It's simply amazing how the 3 books tie together, as if they are just one huge book that he had to release separately or else we'd have a 3000 bage novel no one would read.
Definitely the cream of the crop as far as fantasy goes.
This is my favorite fantasy series. The characters are well developed, the plot has lots of interesting twists, and the characters you'd think are shoo-ins for winning, don't win. It's not the typical American fantasy novel, and I'm eagerly awaiting the next installment in the series. If you like this, you might also like the "Kushiel" series by Jacqeline Carey, with the caveat that it's a little explicit in places.
Uh, "if it looks roughly mouse-shaped according to my infra-red sensitive pit, eat it"? --Chris Burke 09-08-10
has become one of my favorite authors. I have read all 3 books in the Song of Ice and Fire, and am anxiously awaiting book 4. In fact, I am re-reading the first 3!
If you liked the first 3 books, I recommend going to you local library and picking up a copy of Legends. It is a collection of short stories by various authors. It includes a story by George R. R. Martin called the Hedge Knight, which is a must read for any fan of A Song of Ice and Fire.
IANAL... But I play one on
This is a very viral series. I was turned on to it, and have since turned most of my friends on to it, and so on. This is definitely on of the best series out there, in any genre. The prose is very visual, and the entire history is very well thought out. Read the book, and you will be hooked. And then you'll be like me: come to work, get a cup of coffee, and log in to www.GeorgeRRMartin.com to see when book #4 will be released. Winter is coming
I have to say I didn't really like this book... is it well written? yes... Is it as full of intrigues as the bold and the beautiful? OH YES OH YES OH YES! heh... I got extremely tired of the intrigues and shit going on... you could like watch sunset beach or whatever instead ;-)
If you like intrigues though, then I'm sure it'll be a great read for you!
http://www.georgerrmartin.com/ - the authors web site, with information about the status of the series.
It is a great series, one of the best I've ever read together with the works of Stephen Donaldson (Gap series, Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, etc). But it was quite a while since I read the last book, and still no sign of the rest of the books... I don't remember how many was planned, but I think it was something like 8 or 12 books... which is good, if they ever hit the market, and bad as it is now while waiting.
...but read Stephen Donaldson's "Thomas Covenant" books. Top class!
Game dev and music blog
I found this series to be, as the reviewer said, one of the best I'd read in a decade.
I was impressed with the author's courage to lead the reader into the life of a main character, cause the reader to empathise with and respect the character, and then unmercilessly have the character killed, unfairly and unjustly.
This is much more believable and realistic than the happy-happy tripe spoon fed by most authors: "The Rambo Syndrome" where a formulaic plot consists of
1. no bad guys can hit anything they shoot at
2. no good guys die
3. the bad guy is 100% evil
4. the good guy is about 98.44% pure
5. truth and love win EVERYTHING at the end
For these types of stories, you don't even have to read the whole book, or watch the whole movie. You know that if you flip to the last few chapters, the bad guy will be vanquished and the good guys will give each other hugs and high-fives.
I think that Martin's series is closer to some of the good old stuff like For Whom the Bell Tolls or Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.
I don't want to be here.
Run-on sentences, you start sentences with conjunctions, the first sentence of the review appears to be referring to SOMETHING, but I'm not sure what...
Just spend the time to read it over or have someone else read it. Sorry, I'm really anal about these things
Anyone who posts about bad moderation is himself or herself off-topic and should be moderated accordingly.
That takes care of spelling and a few other nits. I'll let someone else correct the grammar.
His name's George R. R. Martin, and his page is here.
He's still sorry... damn.
No other book will ever be the same. GRRM is such a master of weaving complex plot lines, spawning sub plots that turn into major plots before you notice, then deftly merging multiple plot lines back into one. It's one great tapestry of characters. GRRM honestly took the joy out of reading for me. It's like growing up drinking bud, discovering guiness, and finding out there are only three glasses of guiness on the planet with only three more to come. I check GRRM's web page every day hoping he'll announce when I can get my next hit.
I don't know who did it first, but Piers Anthony uses that same technique of writing a chapter from a different character's point of view. In his books, they cycle through the main characters, basically.
> But Martin does it by focusing not on one main
> character, but on a whole slew of them
He's not alone in this. J.V. Jones does this in her 'ice series'.
-- Cheers!
I heard that "J.R." Rowling was asked by her publishers to drop her given name and go with the initials because they were worried school boys wouldn't read a novel written by a woman -- she was asked to do it by the money people rather than wanting to do it herself....
Seriously.
His first few books in the WoT rocked my world.
Now, although I haven't given up on them, I just don't have the heart to see one more smoothing of the dresses, tugged on braid, or no Mat.
Give us back our Jordan we used to know, damnit!
I'll have to give this dude a read. thanks for the review
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I don't think I've heard of Nail Gaiman. How does his writing relate to J.R.R. Toelkien's?-)
My sig will be released in 2015 third quarter. Rating pending.
One thing people need to be aware of with this series is that it is extremely explicit, with graphic descriptions of violence, including torture, maiming, rape, murder of children, and just about every other repulsive act you can think of.
While the quality of writing is excellent, I would not recommend this series to anyone but the most jaded fantasy reader who is bored with the reams of cookie cutter fantasy in bookstores and is ready for something different, although in my opinion, it's different in a bad way. While J.R.R. Tolkien might hint at the horrors of evil, George R.R. Martin describes it in loving detail. I had enough after the second book.
One item missing from the review and that I haven't seen in the comments yet: Martin's use of 'magic' is very restrained. Don't get me wrong, this *is* a fantasy series, with many supernatural events and characters with interesting 'powers', but this is not what drives the story at all.
This series reads more like historical fiction than sowrd-and-sorcery fantasy. It's set in a medeival world where magic exists but is not part of every day life, and the protagonists' secret weapons turn out to be only their physical skills or brains as often as some magical power.
Imposing Libertarian views on everyone online since 1992.
... and I don't mean BTVS or Anne Rice, then you should real George R.R.Martins Fevre Dream. I would say say it's horror, but fantasy/horror rather than slashfest (no pun intended) - although there is more than a little gore...
Similarly in the SF genre there's a short story called The Sandkings by GRRM that's pretty good too.
I couldn't put this book down and was chomping at the bit for the sequel to come out. Nobody is sacred to Martin. Death and chaos abound, major characters become minor, minor characters become major, and when the book is done you say "well I didn't see that coming".
The history of the world is very rich. "The Hedge Knight" which Martin wrote for "Legends: New Short Novels" published by Tor (Jordan, Goodkind, Feist and Pratchett also had stories published in the work) explains some of the references to historical figures that are made in "A Game of Thrones", "A Storm of Swords" and "A Clash of Kings".
I hope that Martin finishes the series in six books and none of them are fillers. Martin definitely sets the bar high for heroic fantasy writers.
In just 3 books, GRRM has proven himself the finest fantasy author since JRRT, and that is saying a LOT. His books are technically brilliant, his descriptions elegant but not doting, and his dialogue is brilliant enough to differentiate, with taste, the hundreds of significant characters that play in the drama. In the past few years I have suckered over 14 friends and family into reading these books, half of which HATE fantasy. They all loved the series, and are eagerly awaiting book #4. FYI: there is a great CCG based on the books. It just won the Origins award for best new CCG.
Also, give Terry Goodkind's 'Sword of Truth' series a try. He has a bit of a fasination with torture and S&M, but he also has some interesting takes on standard fantasy stuff. Also, rereading the series, I can see some things in the first book, for example, that are dead hints to stuff in the later books. Neat, as they're so off-hand and casual, that the first time you read it, it's not clubbing you over the head with 'FORESHADOW! FORESHADOW!'
Lets see..Wizard'S First Rule, Stone of Tears, Blood of the Fold, Temple of the Winds, Soul of the Fire, Faith of the Fallen, as I recall, are the order.
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This is the finest fantasy series I have read. I really liked the ideas, and the characters are wonderfully well elaborated. Be warned... Martin is not afraid to kill 'main' characters as well, which only enhances the storyline. The only part about this series that I don't like is the wait over the past year and a half for the next book, but I've heard its coming out this fall.
Its funny that not a lot of people have heard about this series, but thats changing. I saw a Kiosk in B&N the other day advertising these books.
Wild cards was okay as well. Some interesting Ideas, some decent stories, some not so much. Martin is the editor for those books. They are written by a number of authors.
I just finished reading the book last week (the spanish edition by Gigamesh Editorial). I think it is an excelent book, stealing me a lot of sleep time ;-)
Now i have a question, is the second book of the saga good enough to buy it right now in english, or wait for the spanish translation that is in preparation?
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Programming is good for health
Although Martin writes very decently, and I love the history of his world, A Song of Ice and Fire does have a few major flaws.
The main one of these is that Martin writes purely for effect. When the shock-effect of something happened is largest, that is when you know beyond a doubt that it will happen. No matter how stupid his characters will have to act because of it. For people who haven't read all that much fantasy (yes, generalizing, I know there are exceptions), a lot of this comes as complete surprises, and he seems to do a lot of things that are completely innovative; but people who've read fantasy beyond Tolkien/Eddings/Jordan/Goodkind(*shudders*)/Weis, etc and have instead explored fantasy from the late 70s and early 80s will recognize a lot of what's happening - and see that it's not all that special.
Second is the gritty-ness of his world. It's overdone. There is exactly one family in the entire world with people capable of having selfless thoughts; every single other character in the series (no matter how unimportant) will be mean, vicious, cruel bastards - often literally. If you want a darker, gritter world than most modern fantasy offers, instead of Martin I recommend Steven Erikson's Tales of the Malazan Book of the Fallen.
Third is the fact that ASoIaF didn't start as a fantasy. This is not a secret, Martin often explains it, but many people don't realize it when they start reading the books. The series started as historical fiction. Only when the first book was almost finished did Martin begin to use more and more fantastical elements, and turn it into a fantasy.
I haven't had a chance to read Martin's books yet...but I do have the first 3 in softcover waiting for the series to end (got burnt on too many long, never-ending series - thanks Mr. Jordan :P ). A few other authors you might want to try would be Tad Williams, Robin Hobb and Steven Erikson.
The Science Fiction and Fantasy World website has a pile of info from News and Reviews to their user forums.
http://www.sffworld.com/
Instead of reading these bullshit 9th grade reading level fantasy novels why don't you try reading some books on economics, history and philosophy?
Then maybe some of you tards could actually form halfway informed opinions on topics other than what scripting language has more snazy features.
Actually half you tards can't even come up with a halfway reasoned opinion on technology either.
Oh, you're hopeless, just go read your "The Princess and the Electric Sword of IZkabibble" in between games of "Mr. Doopies Adventure" on the X "MS Sux0rz" Box...
2) The ellipsis is unnecessary.
3) The second sentence is, in fact, a disaster from beginning to end.
Physician, heal thyself.
... grumble, grumble, grumble, mutter, mutter, Millenium... Hand... Shrimp, I tol' 'em, I tol' 'em.
[img-timeline]
This book came out quite a while ago guys, get with the times. Book 4 is due out soon! How about a preview thread of book 4 instead.
I've had that book on my shelf for ages, but haven't found a good time to read it. I think the most recent Robert Jordan flop has left me a little cold on Fantasy... dunno.
Then again, from the looks of GRRM's publishing schedule, I might want to wait until he's finished the series before I start to read them.
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
It's called, 'Why don't you think for yourself? What the fuck kind of ask slashdot is this? Loser.'
Although the title seems lengthy, it's a must-read.
How about just "Gosh, Golly, Wow..."
I picked the first volume up on a recommendation and found myself trapped by it. I ended up buying the second volume before I finished the first so I could continue without a break. I thought it might (as second volumes often do) disappoint a bit - but before I finished the second volume I was buying the third. Now I get to wait for the fourth.
Worse yet, by the time I was approaching the end of the third volume I was rationing myself to one chapter a day. If you knew how I tend to read, you'd know how rare that is.
The story is wonderful, with twists and turns and complications in abundance - but knowing how things are going to do does not ruin your enjoyment. This is not just a simple, one dimensional tale, instead it reads like real history (I was reminded of "Les Rois Maudits" a multi volume fictionalized history of a series of French kings).
The characters, too, are fascinating - all are mixes of good and bad - and all have the ability to act in ways that make you shake your head a bit - sometimes in surprise, sometimes in recognition. And I found myself caring about the characters (at least some of them) more than I would have guessed possible.
The writing is not fancy or overly self conscious nor is it sloppy or careless. Its just right - doing its job and staying out of the way.
There is magic here - and while it is powerful , it does not take over the book as magic does in many fantasy novels. And very often, that magic is double edged - with the ability to hurt its weilder as much as to help.
Finally, the world itself is varied and vividly described. Most of the action takes place on Westeros, either a very large island, or a small continent. At the north there are icy mountains, mountains that shield a major threat - behind a wall of ice 700 feet high. There are warmer lands too, great rivers (very important, those rivers), and the sea. Off Westeros there are strange lands that one of the characters is wandering through on the way back to Westeros - she visits strange cities with strong magic.
If you like fantasy, or history - these are very much worth reading.
No, let me restate that. If you like reading good stories, with good character this is very much worth reading.
One of the best books (taken as a whole) I've read in a very long time. Not just "best fantasy books" or "best genre books" - but best books.
nt
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
It's funny how what people admire about the books (there are no good guys, or the "good" guys are only marginally better than the bad guys and they certainly don't fare any better) is exactly why I gave up half way through book 2.
I found myself not giving a damn about any of the characters after Eddard Stark was out of the picture. By halfway through book 2, I realized that I didn't actually care *who* came out on top, as they were all SOBs. I quit when I found myself hoping for a event that would kill off all of the characters, perhaps letting some decent offscreen characters live their lives without the interference of all of these self-serving butchers.
I could probably take about 1 volume of this, given that it *is* well written. But 6? No way. It's sort of like reading a 6 volume summary of the recent history of the Congo. The only hope for the people is that everyone drops dead.
+1 funny
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
To any of the characters. Somehow, Martin allows the story to flow though the "focus" characters are constantly changing. In fact, several seemingly important or main characters are simply killed off.
I surprised the hell out of me at first, as most authors get attached to their characters. I have to quickly get through the next few chapters trying to figure out if the characters somehow survived (they didn't, they're good and dead).
Quite impressive, that the author can not only have the guts to kill off characters, but still keep the story in a good "flow" between books with various prior characters dead.
..is probably because Mr Martin is having to devote increasing amounts of time spending his royalties from his sales of this series and less time writing!
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
: a world where summers can last for years - and the winters even longer
Is it really possible for a season to span more than a year?
The books need a good map. The maps provided are a bit on the minimal side. Ideally I'd like a good big map to put on a wall so I can figure out where things are when the wall is nearby, and a smaller - but still good sized - map for keeping with the book.
I guess I'm one of the few that didn't like this one. Here's the review I wrote for epinions.com:
The frustrating thing about this book is that it contains the seeds of a great novel. Unfortunately, that storyline is hitched to too many other storylines that simply don't measure up. As a result, I found myself deeply regretting ever having started. I wanted to find out what happened to the two or three characters I actually cared about, but that meant wading through hundreds of pages of other subplots, most of which I frankly didn't want to read.
The best part of the book by far is the story of Jon Snow, bastard of King Eddard Stark, who is sent to "take the black" and join the garrison manning the titanic Wall that protects the north of the kingdom from attack from Beyond. There he learns about responsibility and sets to work improving the neglected defenses. And beyond the wall, some force is stirring...
It's a great story, and I wanted more of it. But by the end of the 800 pages of this book, that story is still just getting started, because most of the book is spent elsewhere. Which is where we get into trouble.
Basically, there are a lot of other plots going on, and most of them just did't measure up for me. Some of the characters, like Sansa the cookie-cutter princess, are simply shallow and insipid. The others are either objectionably passive (Eddard and Daenerys), mindlessly reactionary (Catelyn), or inherently unsympathetic (Tyrion Lannister). Bran and Arya might turn out to be likeable, but their stories haven't even gotten started by the end of the book. And yet, each of these characters is given their own series of chapters. The end result is too many chapters, and a book that is bogged down in the tedious lives of characters I didn't care about.
It also bothers me that in 800-odd pages Martin wasn't able to tell a complete story, or even get some of the plots fully started. Tolkien told the entire Lord of the Rings in about 900 pages, and LotR isn't exactly thin on plot or background. It also bothered me that when we got to the big battle at the end of the book, most of it happened off screen. Martin devoted more space in his book to people talking in bars! I felt cheated.
The pluses: Martin's writing does a good job of describing what is going on and establishing a sense of medieval atmosphere, and the world he builds in the novel was genuinely interesting to me. I still think the tale of Jon Snow would have made a brilliant standalone novel. On a paragraph by paragraph level, the writing is solid.
This book frustrated me immensely. It was good enough in parts that I didn't want to throw it against the wall, but most of the time it was like eating cardboard. I wouldn't read the rest of this series if I got it for free.
However, people who only want a book to immerse them for x number of pages should be satisfied with it, especially with three more equally overstuffed volumes already out in the series. Given the number of positive reviews for the book, your mileage may definitely vary.
Jon Acheson
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
But parent's advice applies to reviews and other articles, certainly posts should not be held to as high a standard. The reviews are the equivalent of speeches or even written-on-dead-trees work, posts are just part of conversation.
/. actually had "editors", maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion. But if 1000s of people are going to read something, there is onus on the authour to put some care into it.
If only
It's a gritty and disturbing world, where royal families can marry brother to sister to keep bloodlines pure, Mongolian horde empires have their own brand of laws and morals, and a joust is as celebrated as a professional wrestling match - and far more dangerous.
And that's exactly the way our own world was (is).
Prescriptive grammar:linguistics
are some Japanese readers who have digital cameras and a few days to kill snapping pictures of the pages of this book for us !
How you can mention Goodkind in a discussion of Martin is beyond me. Goodkinds' fantasy is simplistic and formulaic with 2 dimensional characters.
I should know, I read his Sword of Truth series in my less discriminating days. It felt like eating bad Chinese food really.
I like it, my boss isn't so happy with it though, he's waiting for me to finish it so that he can read it, but still wants to maintain 'some' productivity out of me and can't rush me... heheheh
It's an excellent series by a writer I'm glad to have come across. I highly recommend them. If you hate waiting for the 'next book' though beware, you will be.
Hardly! While it's true that the Starks are obsessed with honor, it's as much a weakness for them as it is a strength. And a number of the characters who initially come across as "evil" (if only by association to characters who clearly are evil) actually turn out to be complex and even sympathetic characters (more so in the later books).
One of the best features of his stories is the fact that the line between the good guys and the bad guys is never very clear, and gets murkier and more complex as the story unfolds.
"Research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing." -- Wernher von Braun
Yep, I personally think the best examples of this are the Lannisters (exempting Joffery). Almost every character--good or evil--is painted with attention to detail and with a rich and dynamic personality. Their motives are present and he uses a large degree of foreshadowing to hint the direction that things might take.
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"When the shock-effect of something happened is largest, that is when you know beyond a doubt that it will happen. "
Actually I did not find this to be true at all. I also found that he foreshadows everything that is going to happen--he is just not always obvious or heavy-handed with how he brings it to come.
The story tastes *real*: characters die, the line between good and evil is blurred, and there is an appropriate mix of what you can predict absolutely and what was simply led up to without ceremony.
He doesn't give us any information we wouldn't know from the points of view of each of the characters, nor does he give us everything that is going to happen in advance. He assumes that we are intelligent enough to be able to handle.
Yes, the depravity is rife in this world, yes, he uses elements from other stories, however, nothing that happens is out of whack with the way the world has been set up.
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Maybe I'm a bit jaded from forcing myself through book 8 of Jordan's epic (disaster), but thousand page books with no particular point don't appeal to me anymore. I read A Game of Thrones and found that almost all of the characters were stupid, evil, or dead. There was no one I had any interest in reading about anymore, and it was clear the series was not about to magically become a focused, readable account following one character. Yes, Martin's plot is very believable, his perspective-switching is fair to all characters, and his writing is at least passable, but who wants to read about believable and fair? That sounds like normal, to me! I can find normal if I open my front door. In fantasy I *want* fantasy. Reading about people I don't care about doing excruciatingly normal things made this book one of my least favorite in a while.
As long as it's already a spoiler thread, I just need to add that when *Jaime* becomes a character perspective, it feels like there aren't many streams left to cross. Jaime could be a *bad, bad guy*, and now we're supposed to sympathize?
And we did. So good a book!
But now, what's next? Who else could they shock us by sympathizing? Melisandre? One of the "Others"? Janos Slynt?
Now i have to call him and tell him he has been slashdoted :)
We substituted the coffee Slashdot normally drinks with "Sandoz Crystals", Lets see if they notice the difference
Don't tell me I'm the only person that finds that name funny. I wonder if his middle name starts with A...
I sent him an email - a shameless adultation fanboy email - and wrote "please write back" rather than "please don't waste time writing back"
I just wanted to encourage him, if he needed it and random comments from a stranger would help.
I don't write fanmail - this was a thank you card. It's that good.
Touche! hehehe apologies.....
I agree - these are amazing books, and they are part of a single story, not just a reworking of a product that was already successful. In otherwords, not a bunch of sequels with ever-decreasing juice (like, for me, Dune). They get stronger as they go because we know the characters better and care about the outcomes more.
...they're urcs!" Mr. Martin is not of their ilk. No questing, no rehash. Very original.
They are such rich books! Massive, but not an ounce of padding. The conflict is almost fractal - there's an overall arc that gets advanced in bits and peices, hints and prologues, while the lower level stuff sorts itself out. Below the conflict between Fire and Ice, there's civil war in the realm - as many as 7-8 contenders for the throne. Within each faction is conflict. Within each family anchoring a faction, there is conflict. Within each family member there is conflict!
Which leads to...his incredbily strong characterization. He has nuanced bad guys. Even his good guys (Ned Stark) are so well rendered that I believed them, and knew them, even though they epitomized Good and Honor. His characters have delusions, and act on them, traits that are pro-survival and not so much. And he is ruthless with them.
As well as he knows the characters, he knows his world. It's a 360 degree view at whatever narrative location he puts us in. I get the sense that he could turn the narrative in a different direction, illuminate different stuff, and it would be as complete as what he did write about. It's not like Disneyland where you just have to peak behind a crowd control rope to see where the paint on the cement stops and the illusion ends. Wherever he puts our eye is enough detail for us to implicitly know that the world continues beyond our view.
I have to rave about his storytelling fu: he turns things over, so that we (and usually the characters) are surprised at how things turn out. But even when that's not the case, it is still strong stuff! I just finished rereading the 3, and even when I knew what was going to happen, I was compelled. I dreaded getting to certain parts.
The first time I read them, I went out of order (on the recommendation of some slashdot dweeb). I figured after reading the 3rd, that the 1st would cover the tremendously interesting backstory (a successful rebellion 10 years previous). Nope. It just went back about a year. He has such invention that he can "squander" a magnificent tale as mere backstory!
The series has elements of fantasy, but the rest of it is so strong that it would still work without it. It has the great politics of the first Dune, but the series is not in any way derivitave.
There's a whole class of tolkien wannabes I just can't read. "THis is different! They must destroy the *bracelet* of power!" "They aren't orcs
And I like the "Song of Fire and Ice" as much as, if not better than all of them. I'd say it works pretty well for experienced readers.
The bad (if you want to call it that) is that you will have to read her first two trilogies:
The Farseer Trilogy and
Liveship Traders Series
to really understand the latest one (the main character is from the first triligy...but also alludes to the second series some...but you could get by without reading it).
I keep telling others that she is one of the very few people I find that don't start off great then loose steam (I'm looking at you Robert Jordan!). Each book she releases seems to get better and better!
Heck, even it's amazon link says people who bought this book bought Martins series...check it out. You just might like it.
Not to sell books, but be true to the story.
Some authors aren't the masters of their tales. (Masters of their craft, yes...) I don't think Martin enjoys the horrible acts the monsters in his books perpetrate. They are monsters! That's what gives his books life- his characters do what they will/would do, rather than conforming to a Code of Conduct. That's the world he finds himself writing. Tolkien folk don't bleed much - I don't fault him for it, that's the world he writes. I don't fault the Harry Potter series for being bloodless. That's how that world is. I hope my kids enjoy them long before they get to this series.
Martin's world appears to be inspired by the 100 years war and War of the Roses, where the actual events make his story seem fairly tame in comparison. The Brits depopulated large chunks of France when the French forces wouldn't/couldn't defend them. Battles were lost because the troops were so busy looting they forgot to finish the fight. In one instance, nominally Catholic English soldiers burned a nunnary, raping all the inhabitants and killing all but a few which were saved for further entertainment.
The 100 years war was a disaster for Britain because during the lulls the unemployed British soldiers had gotten a taste for rape and plunder, and kept it up when they got home.
One reader didn't care for the sex scenes - I don't think they are excessive, nor dwelt on in prurient detail. They are part of the characters' lives (illigitimate children play a huge role in the story). One character binds her husband to her by being both Queen and Lover. One incident reveals Theon Grayjoy's character nicely, though it doesn't advance the story much by itself.
I should sum up - it's a more realistic world than most, and if you like your fiction more squeeky clean, stay away. I have put away books that had similar violence without the honesty. There's a reason for it here - it has to be, or the story is less true.
Oh man... you're one of those who missed the forest for the trees, eh? ;-)
BTW - note all reading this, if you're not already aware: there is a newsgroup devoted to George R. R. Martin and his works (primarily the Song of Ice and Fire series) at alt.fan.grrm. Come join us if you're interested in discussing this series (there is, of course, a hell of a lot to discuss :-).
Anyway, Thag/Jon (hey! another 4-digit slashdotID! :) - as soon as you started on with the "I wanted to find out what happened to the two or three characters I actually cared about, but that meant wading through hundreds of pages of other subplots, most of which I frankly didn't want to read." ... I knew your story.
The funny thing is, I can actually understand it, because I felt like that at the end of almost every single chapter of the book. "Oh no - he's leaving this character! I don't want to leave and move somewhere completely different, I want to go on with this story!" However, once I (reluctantly) started the next chapter, I happily sank back into the new POV (point-of-view) storyline... until that chapter ended... :-)
The thing to (try to) remember is that this series is not like so many other fantasy novels and series. There's not just one hero/heroine and his/her hangers-on. There's not just one Big Bad Guy that is irredeemably bad and we don't really know (or care) why. In fact, there isn't even that clear a line between "good" guys and "bad" guys. There aren't any magic amulets or wands... or even magic swords.
And, most importantly - no-one (especially not the "good" guys) is invulnerable, and no-one (especially not the "bad" guys) is guaranteed to die. Of course, there's also the minor detail that there aren't any clear boundaries between good and bad. We get shades of grey - real shades of grey, not the artificial pissweak kind used by Robert Jordan and his ilk. Lies. Ugly, ugly compromises. Deceit. Betrayal. Corruption. And sometimes with the best of intentions...
We had a guy posting on alt.fan.grrm (note: for god's sake DON'T follow that link if you haven't read "A Game Of Thrones", it contains major spoilers for the first book (in fact, probably best to avoid the thread entirely if you haven't read the entire series, Google doesn't handle spoiler space very well *wry grin*)) a little while ago that made a number of similar comments - I can only say to you much the same I (and others on the group) said to him. Don't give it up. You've already missed so much of the sheer depth of the first book, but once you start reading the second (and later, hopefully, the third) you'll probably go straight back to the first and reread it, this time "getting" some of the stuff that you skimmed over on your first reading.
Really, seriously, I'm not kidding. I'm not an idiot (well, not all the time). The other people who have raved and drooled and gibbered about this series aren't idiots either (well, not all of them ;-). If you don't read any more then you are doing yourself a terrible wrong - you'll be missing out on what future generations will look back on as the greatest fantasy series of all time.
Go on, suck back your pride and admit to yourself that you might have been wrong... (trust me, it's not that hard, I do it all the time *grin*). Go acquire yourself a copy of "A Clash of Kings" and find yourself a quiet place you can be undisturbed for a few hours and start realising that yes, ther
Not to take anything away from Martin's excellent work, but anyone who is familiar with the Wars of the Roses (1455 to 1487) will recognize the storyline immediately. If it seems more realistic than your average fantasy novel, that's because it's based on reality, unlike your average fantasy novel. :)
That said, it's still an excellent tale, well told.
And if you like this sort of thing, then I strongly recommend checking out the works of Guy Gavriel Kay, who is (afaik) the real pioneer of retelling obscure bits of history reset into realms of fantasy. My personal favorite is The Lions of Al-Rasan, based on the latter days of Moorish Spain. None of these have quite the scale of the Thrones series, being mostly standalone novels, but they're still pretty hefty novels, and all quite good. (Kay is also known for his work with Christopher Tolkien, editing the unpublished works of Chris' faither, J.R.R., and for his pure-fantasy Arthuriana-soaked trilogy, The Fionavar Tapestry.)
I agree w/ you. It's a GREAT SERIES/book.
But can you at LEAST fix the name? It's not R.R. Martin.
Ain't no such dude.
I own all 3 books, waiting on the fourth. I like the fact you did a review. I WANT you to fix the dang name.
Thanks.
I have been reading the 2nd book for the past few weeks and it is even more awsome. One of the things that is cool about it is that the basic setting has already been created, so GRRM doesn't have to spend so much time discussing history. I like this series of books a lot more than Jordan's WOT. I just wish they were as popular. I also wish they had an online MUD for the SoIaF series.
If anyone's looking to talk about the works of George Martin with fans of like mind, we've got a great discussion board going at A Song of Ice and Fire. It's also where his fan club, the Brotherhood Without Banners, hangs out online. The last two years running we (the Brotherhood) have thrown parties for (and with) George at Worldcon, and are planning to throw another one in Toronto this year. FWIW, George is a great fellow. He's witty, polite, and likes to hang out with his fans. Two years ago we spent all night drinking with him, and then he went with us to get cheesesteaks in the wilds of South Philly at 3AM. He even knighted us, right there on the sidewalk, with an actual sword!
Now that you mention it -- yeah, I did have such thoughts all during GAP, and in the latter half of the Covenant books. And after a certain point, I stopped caring -- because they are ALL *victims*. Mordant's Need isn't as focused on that, but then again, I think it's a better set (more balanced overall, not so artificially structured -- which IMO really hurts GAP's "credibility" storywise).
That's a trap Martin deftly avoids, even while beating the crap out of his hapless characters, and even when they got themselves into whatever nasty situation. Some people are natural victims, yeah, but it's not the norm there any more than in the Real World[tm].
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
That's WarS (plural) of the Roses (a series of historical conflicts (mostly) between the Houses of Lancaster and York). The movie you're referring to is War (singular) of the Roses. Makes it a little easier to tell 'em apart.
:)
It's great that Martin is finally getting some well-deserved recognition - I've been a fan for years, since his odd-but-compelling Fevre Dream, and the long-before-its-time Rock'n'Roll Horror novel, Armageddon Rag. On the other hand, it's a little bit too bad that he's getting some of that recognition for the wrong things - the influence of both real history and of fellow "realistic-fantasy" pioneers Guy Gavriel Kay and Kristen Kathrine Rusch on his work is all but ignored. Still and all, it's great to see something that's actually good be popular for a change.
My fears that [expletive deleted] Robert Jordan had killed the market for anything resembling good fantasy have thankfully proven to be groundless.
Yeah, shame on J.K. Rowling for popularizing something that used to only be done by no-name hacks like J.R.R. Tolkein, C.S. Friedman, S.M. Stirling, C.J. Cherryh, L.E. Modesitt Jr., etc.
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
- Tuf Voyaging is a compilation of lighthearted short stories about a good, old, kind and cat-lover space trader, who finds Ark, the last "seedship", a space ship capable of genetically engineer an entire planet, and combine and deploy any of the many species stored in his database. Tuf decides to use this mighty power to help civilizations with problems like overpopulation. It is one of my all time sci-fi favorites, I don't what it is, but the book has something that touched me.
- Dying of the Light. Quoted from the back of the book: It is about the complex relationship between completely different cultures and how those deal with love and the such. Very rocemmended too. I plan to read A Game of Thrones very soon, I know Mr. Martin won't disappoint me.
My absolute favourite author, which very few N.Americans seem to have heard of, is Diana Wynne Jones. She writes for a wide range of ages, so you may have to select carefully. (Although I enjoy the books she writes for a younger audience because she doesn't write down to children at all). Perhaps a good one to start on is Deep Secret as it is young adult to adult level and widely released in N.America. The sequel The Merlin Conspiracy has just come out. A lot of her books have been republished due to the success of a certain other British author.
On that subject, although I did have fun with Harry Potter, I keep saying `what's the big deal?!' DWJ has been doing this for years and doing it far better. One of the best things about DWJ's books are the characters. They are always interesting people with both good and bad qualities and she never resorts to using a Pure Force of Evil as the badguy. The villains are generally perfectly normal people whose character traits and desires have just led them to behave in a less than laudable fashion.
Another suggestion for a starter book is A Sudden Wild Magic, which is intended for adults and is about a group of magic users on Earth who find out there is a parallel world called Arth that is using Earth as a test lab by causing problems and seeing how Earth people deal with them. So they create an interdimensional bus and send a bunch of them over to try to disrupt things.
I hope you're not pretending to be evil while secretly being good. That would be dishonest.
I thought Martin's craft was flawless. He's a damned clever story teller. It's his stunted and cynical view of life which I absolutely could not swallow! Good people in his books are routinely punished for being good, beauty is reviled and destroyed, decay is demonstrated to be the only natural course of nature, people with positive view-points are savagely dis-abused of their notions, and his sexualization of pre-teen girls was entirely unsavory. Martin clearly exists within and writes to us from a very dark reality. Fine. His problem. --What I find frightening is that so many people seem to resonate with it in such enthusiastic terms.
How evil or good our world is, is largely determined by what people believe the prevailing social norms are and how they act them out. Books like Martin's I find disturbing for many reasons.
-FL
My life has been described as Lucky. I have been accused of being a 'Joy Junkie'. I have been sneered at for not being miserable. --For having 'unrealistic' expectations of the world, (and despised when those expectations come true.)
Now, I am not a proponant of the whole, "You create your own reality," camp of Budhist philosophy. --Yes, on a deep level, we DO create our own reality, but I certainly don't know how to tweek those strings, and nobody I have ever met has been able to either. (If it's winter outside, no amount of wishing or meditating is going to change that.)
However. . , that being said, I absolutely believe that one can color their corner of reality, affecting the prevailing winds of 'chance' and the collective perceptions and attitudes of others in how they interact with reality. --And I believe that this kind of habitual approach to life creates a cascade effect over 'time', which DOES change the way in which the world works. Butterfly wings and all that.
Story tellers like George R. Martin are mis-directed and dangerous in that they are so agile in portraying their own dismal views of reality that their readers can be swept up into such dark perspectives and through this, change their own world for the worse.
How evil or good our world is, is largely determined by what people believe the prevailing social norms are and how they act them out. Yes, there are bad people in power who know how to manipulate. But this is a result of social programming and ignorance on behalf of the people; it has nothing to do with any nonsense belief that "bad things sometimes happen to good people and that's just the way it is." --Because it simply isn't true; the universe is nowhere near that random. Karma works. --But because people have been led away from this sort of awareness and pushed into a collective head-space where misery and chaos are the norms, then OF COURSE it's going to appear that losers like George R. Martin have the most accurate line on 'reality'.
Books like Martin's I find disturbing for many reasons.
-FL
Surprised no one has mentioned this one - excellent book set on a 'fallen' colony world, where civilisation consists of scattered islands held together by flyers. Beautiful, poetic writing, nicely realised characters and world. Don't miss it.
Not a little hyperbolic there, are you?
Martin is above average, and he's done a good job adapting the Wars of the Roses for a fantasy audience. But that's all it is ... a good job, not a great job.
Nor is this a book for everyone. Martin definitely follows in the "Fantasy Russian Novelist" sub-genre which Robert Jordan adopted so successfully. If you don't mind a book with scores of characters and near a thousand pages, if skipping between 20 different points of view is fine by you, then Martin may be your writer.
If, however, you believe that brevity is the soul of wit and your literary heroes include Kurt Vonnegut, Daschell Hammet and Will Shetterly, then you're unlikely to get past chapter 10. I certainly didn't.
Pleasure reading is a matter of taste. While we can agree on certain items as being superior (plausible dialog, for example) beyond the level of "acceptable" it's all personal taste. And your tastes are not everyone's tastes. Get it?
-Josh
Rather a happy-ending title, that. (In the context of the main characters of book one.) We'll see.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Maybe if he's doing a six-or-seven-parter the dragons will be ok, but as of book 3 they still seemed mostly like padding, a way of creating an extra story line that's mostly happening somewhere else. Ok, they're sort of a motivation for Danerhys to grow her political position, and maybe that can build some good conflict, but it seems like cheap "You've got to have a dragon, this is a fantasy novel" material, quite in contrast with the rest.
And I'm not going to spoiler the sorcery that shows up in Book Three, but I thought it didn't fit in logically - if it could be used effectively the way it was, it would have been used far more times in far more conflicts, and the politics would be different.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
i'm so sick and tired of picking up a fantasy book and reading, "you are the one fortold of to bring down the big bad guy" or "you have something the dark lord wants now ytou must run away from him and by running away i mean running towards and attacking him"
pullleeeeeaaassse.
god when ever i hear some one say something about george r.r. martin like "he doesn't make the character good enough" i want to kick them. good enough? do you want them to slay a thousand mounted "evil" men with one blow for the "right" reasons? there is no such thing as killing someone and still be considered wholey good. nobody is perfect in anyway, least of all on a moral level. even people who dedicate they're entire lives to being good never make it to the top. another good thing about george is that he isin't gonna give you some 400 page novel thats basicly a lord of the rings wanna be.everything i see from the "wheel of time" series to "dragon lance" to "forgotten realms" has some serious Tolkien influence (the wheel of time writer really knows what writing is about though other wise i'd toss his book into the garbage). George will hit you with an origional epic that you'll be able to understand (well depending on your age you may understand it to different degree's) because it reflects stuff you run into in life so well and not to mention people you run into in life. and why are you posting on a site about a book you don't like? this book captures reality and gives it teeth.
It avoids the problem that some people might be prejudiced against women writers. Ursula LeGuin said that the only time she used a pen name instead of her real name was "U.K.LeGuin" for a short story in Playboy before she'd really made her reputation. (Of course, this doesn't apply to J.R.R.Tolkien or George Sand :-)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Sigh - after I posted that I got back to the main window with the 15 articles saying the same thing :-) Also, I'd intended to mention James Tiptree, Jr. as another example.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I had high expectations when I started reading "A game of thrones".
I stopped after that book since the writer did not seem to have any deeper meaning that he wanted to get across. It was more like a plot written to appeal to the majority of fantasy readers.
Frank Herbert(environment/religon), Tolkien(nature) or Robert Jordan(for example the gypsies) all present some idea that keeps the story interesteing.
Game of thrones is more like a soap opera.
Dont't now if the sequels are similar, though.
The story tastes *real*
;)
Isn't the whole point of Fantasy telling stories that doesn't seem real?
That said, very fine series so far, on par with Erikson's Malazan series mentioned by the grandparent and Donaldson's Covenant series.
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
In the twilight, unknown"
OK here goes, straight from the well of memory: Eddard Start - Lord of Winterfell Catherine his wife Robert the king His wife....errrr....Cercei Lannister? Lord Tywin Lannister The Imp Jaimie Lannister - the Kingslayer The woman knight...blast!...forgot her name Arya Sansa Jon The wolf child Hmmm...you are right...seems hard to remember.
In game of Thrones, majic was understated, but that has been slowly changing. I think by the time the later books come out, there will be more spells and incantations flying around than you can shake a wand at.
If anyone is into it - check out the collectible card game based on "A Game of Thrones" by Fantasy Flight Games. Seriously true to the series, the game is full of intrigue and you would not believe how many characters die in the game. It is also one of the most strategy oriented games out there. A very nice way to spend your time and money ;)
Not too bad for a /. fiction review.
But the author is George R. R. Martin, not "R R Martin". He is the author of Dying of the Light, the Armageddon Rag, Fevre Dream and many more fine novels, and editor of the "Wild Cards" series.
More on the quality of writing, the number of books in the series and ETAs of the remaining ones, things like that, is more helpful than naming characters.
The series is "A Song of Ice and Fire".
Book 1 is A Game of Thrones (1998).
Book 2, A Clash of Kings (1999).
Book 3, A Storm of Swords (2001).
Book 4 will be A Feast for Crows (est. 2004).
Book 5 will be A Dance with Dragons.
Also, as these are epic novels of around a thousand pages each, some or all of them have been crudely split into two parts for publication in the ultra-conservative US market - as tragically happened with Peter F Hamilton's "Night's Dawn" trilogy and Dan Simmons' "Hyperion Cantos". So, in America only, there are six books so far, not three. A Storm of Swords, for example, becomes "Part 1: Steel and Snow" and "Part 2: Blood and Gold".
Spelling and grammar should be checked before submission and publication. It's "whose", not "who's". The Tolkien dwarf is Gimli, not Ghimli.
Allowable for a first try, but needs more work.
Liam P. ~ "Intelligence is a lethal mutation." (me)
Because I am dying to know
No you're not. It sounds to me as though you are very firmly decided on how you want to percieve the universe. When you get tired of being limited, (possibly several lives from now), then you might want to know, and only then you will be in a position to hear the answers.
It's not my job to interrupt your current path. Heck, if I manage to upset the trajectory chosen by your higher self and mess up the lessons you've designated for yourself this life, why. . , that's bad Karma, and I'd have to pay for it later.
But of course, that's all nonsense. Today, I am just a fool on the web.
Ciao.
-FL
Please read Tuf Voyaging, for example, and think again.
I read the first hundred pages of the next in the Game of Thrones series, (but cannot recall the title.) I got very much fed up with it and had to stop.
It is possible that his other works are not in the same vein, and if so, then I was innacurate in using the term, 'his books'. --Although, in this case, I was only referring to the ones he has most recently written; those in this particular and popular series.
Let's be realistic, intelligent people doesn't "stop to be good an honest" just because the characters of the book are bad and vicious, and they win.
That is a matter of opinion, and one which I disagree with. I believe that the media is in fact VERY good at reflecting and re-inforcing social patterns. Joseph Goebbels would have agreed with me, I think.
The greatest lie ever told by advertisers is that advertising doesn't work.
And, could you make your argument without personal disqualifications ? Thanks.
I call it as I see it. Anybody who writes from such a grim place has clearly lost his way. Hence, 'Loser' is very appropriate, I think.
-FL
Actually... no. No, I don't believe I am :).
Definitely? How would you know? You said yourself that you didn't get beyond chapter 10 of the first book!
Scores of characters? Check. Near a thousand pages? Close enough. 20 different points of view?... well, try eight in the first book, ten in the second and eleven in the third.
How would you know? You said yourself that you didn't get beyond chapter 10 of the first book!! :-)
This is the criticism usually levelled at Robert Jordan (usually less indirectly) and with more than a little justification in that case. RJ's WoT series is quite badly bloated and I'd never pretend otherwise.
ASOIAF, however, simply isn't. GRRM is actually a pretty tight writer - it's just that ASOIAF is a story with a huge scope - it has to be of a decent size, but nothing is there unnecessarily. GRRM said of the ASOIAF project that he was sick of cutting content (presumably worthwhile content :-) to fit the confines of TV shows (he wrote for a couple of television series in the eighties and early nineties) - he wanted to do something with a genuinely huge scale, and a series of novels was the only option that gave him that freedom.
BTW, you really can't compare ASOIAF to Vonnegut or Hammet, for the same reason that you can't compare a fish to a bicycle. They're not in the same ball park, they're not even the same sport. Those guys simply don't approach the scale of what Martin is doing with ASOIAF.
Actually, no, I don't believe that. I think it's a bit of a cop-out, actually - to imply that there's no real way to compare works of literature, it's all just how it makes you feeeeel (insert gratuitous hand-waving). It's not anywhere near as simple as comparing the length of two pieces of string, but there are reasonable ways to compare two works without taking too much account of unpredicatable variables like "personal taste". Admittedly it's going to be fuzzy, but so is judging figure skating or ballroom dancing or gymnastics - it certainly doesn't mean that it can't be done reasonably accurately. Though of course it helps if you've actually read all of the book(s) you're trying to judge... :-)
No, when you compare ASOIAF with other competitors in the same genre, with somewhere remotely close to the same scope (hint: LOTR only barely qualifies), I don't think you're going to find one that matches ASOIAF, judging on any level that makes sense. Though if you do, I'd sure as hell like to find out about that series :-).
Pete.> the rest of the books in this series to see if
> they keep up the excellent quality of this one.
You had me right up to this point. I just can't deal with bood series anymore. Between work and my son I don't have time to get through many short stories let alone a novel. Having to go and reas a handfull and then waiting for the next one to be released is to much.
--
If I actually could spell I'd have spelled it right in the first place.
.... is that they have not read, and most importantly, seen Shakespeare.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
99% of people can draw a line between fantasy and fiction.
The 1% that can't will find any stimulus to follow their inclinations. That is not the fault of a writer.
It is good that there are writers that expose us to dark worlds, that way we can play with darkness in the safe container of our own imagination.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Yesterday I made love to the most beautiful blonde that will ever grace this planet.
Tomorrow I will do the redheaded, and the day after tomorrow the black beauty.
Perfection, specially on the arts, is not akin to Mt Everest with space for only one climber, but perhaps is similar to Table Mountain in Cape Town, with ample space to roam and be wondered.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
... la lengua original es siempre mejor (si es que uno tiene la competencia suficiente).
Hay muchas cosas que no se pueden traducir fielmente, asi que si usted tiene la suerte de dominar ambas lenguas mi humilde consejo es que siempre lea en la lengua original en que la obra en cuestion fue escrita.
Saludos.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I work at a library and yes, Martin is always being checked out. I had never really wanted to read his books but I think I might give this one a shot. Thanks for the recommendation!!
I'm taking the same stance with Martin as I have with Jordan and Goodkind. When the series is finally, completely, totally done, then hand me the first book. The "never-ending series" syndrome in fantasy fiction is becoming really, really annoying. Unless each book is a standalone in a more open-ended series, I just don't bother anymore.
a few sites people might find interesting - but most riddled with spoilers...
http://www.westeros.org/ - the most complete asoiaf reference on the web
http://pub26.ezboard.com/basoiaf - a message board with over 80,000 postings
http://www.georgerrmartin.com - the authour's official home page (not so interesting most of the time).
http://www.amoka.net - some fantastic art by a russian dude.
I found this (the parent post's) approach to understanding these series of novels very stimulating of insights (which isn't exactly the same thing as insightful, and I wanted to post, not moderate anyway ;)
;)
First off, I disagree strongly about the higher education part. The most significant things I learned in my university education were to always read critically, and to watch for places where the top experts disagreed. I learned that it's true that the more you know, the more you realize is unknown -- not just to you, but unknown period. I don't think I was the only one to learn that, though.
As for a darker view on life. It's true that some people attract bad experiences to themselves, and that those are the people who believe most strongly in the prevalence of evil nature in humanity, and in the fact that bad things will happen to them. I don't know which is the cause and which the effect, though, of those two. I suspect it's their experiences that form their outlook, not the reverse; and that it is the bad experiences happening to them as impressionable children that make them unconsciously seek them out in the rest of their life.
I also think that it's not a bad thing to have stories that explore the darker side of human nature. Even those of us who have had happy, fortunate lives and believe more in a fair and sane world, have darker aspects to our inner selves that we exclude or ignore to our own detriment. Safe ways of exploring one's own resonances with danger and evil can be good experiences in life.
George R. R. Martin's writing has explored a wide variety of themes, and this is not his only or even his predominant theme. Give the series a chance to finish up and see what it's about as a whole; also, don't be distracted by one aspect you disagree with from seeing the rest of what he's writing about.
As for other novels or series that have similar effects, I agree that Guy Gavriel Kay's work is one example. My personal favorites of his are A Song for Arbonne and the two parter, Sailing to Sarantium and Lord of Emperors. Others, not mentioned, include M. K. Wren's series Sword of the Lamb and sequels. And for purely historical fiction with a lot of the same feel to it, I highly recommend Colleen McCullogh's Rome series, starting with "The First Man in Rome" and continuing with The Grass Crown, Fortune's Favorites, etc. It has tremendously interesting characters taken from history, as deeply characterized as Martin's and as likely to die (a they all, of course, are now dead
Writing is the only socially acceptable form of schizophrenia. (E. L. Doctorow)