Hardware-Based Commute-Map Gadget

coreymetrics writes "Anyone have one of these things? While it's no substitute for an improved mass-transit solution in the Puget Sound area, TrafficGauge's new gadget sure looks like it beats any PDA or cell phone auto traffic map I've used. It uses the same data that powers the Washington State DOT's indispensable website. Now why can't auto makers put this kind of thing in a dash instead of mostly worthless GPS navigation and DVD units?"

Comments

"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[Scoria]

Now why can't auto makers put this kind of thing in a dash instead of mostly worthless GPS navigation and DVD units?

Several Mercedes-Benz GPS navigation systems actually do support the reception of traffic information embedded inside of radio signals.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[SuperBanana]

Several Mercedes-Benz GPS navigation systems actually do support the reception of traffic information embedded inside of radio signals.

Supposedly the Audi navigation systems were going to support this as well...as early as 1999 or 2000 in the US, but to my knowledge they're still not doing it; I have no idea about the euro units. I think it was mostly an infrastructure problem- either lack or incompatibility.

Honestly, I question the value of such information in the first place. Rarely are other routes unblocked, at least here in Boston. You're pretty much screwed no matter which way you go. If that wasn't enough, they randomly close/open exits due to the massive construction(the Big Dig), and in the last 6-12 months, lots of big changes have been going on as new tunnels and exchanges open(which is going to wreak havoc with people with old databases for their nav systems!)

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[chunkwhite86]

Supposedly the Audi navigation systems were going to support this as well...as early as 1999 or 2000 in the US, but to my knowledge they're still not doing it; I have no idea about the euro units. I think it was mostly an infrastructure problem- either lack or incompatibility.

I haven't heard that before from Audi. But Audi has always been an innovator and on the leading edge of technology. Did you know the Audi A8 has an all-aluminum body? And Audi's been doing all-aluminum bodied cars for over 10 years now? very cool.

Honestly, I question the value of such information in the first place. Rarely are other routes unblocked, at least here in Boston. You're pretty much screwed no matter which way you go. If that wasn't enough, they randomly close/open exits due to the massive construction(the Big Dig), and in the last 6-12 months, lots of big changes have been going on as new tunnels and exchanges open(which is going to wreak havoc with people with old databases for their nav systems!)

Seems like it would be more useful in some cities than in others. I'm in DC and there are several different highways and/or bridges that I could choose to use to get from point A to point B. I use different routes depending on what time of day it is, but having real-time traffic maps would be great for the DC area and all it's traffic problems.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[hashish]

OK, but where do they work? Good idea, but they reply on heaps of public funded infrastructure to work. I rather have the traffic reports on the radio, a worthless dvd player than higher taxes.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[djupedal]

Did you know the Audi A8 has an all-aluminum body?

You mean like the Ford/AC Cobra, back in 1965? Or the Land Rover? ...ho hum....

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[YOU LIKEWISE FAIL IT]

Did you know the Audi A8 has an all-aluminum body?

That's no good! Imagine if you slapped into a rusty old Pinto and one of those magnesium framed mountain bikes - instant thermite!

Oh, the humanity!,
YLFI.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[d34thm0nk3y]

do they actually make magnesium framed mountain bikes or was that just a poorly justified McGuiver?

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[chunkwhite86]

You mean like the Ford/AC Cobra, back in 1965? Or the Land Rover? ...ho hum....

Yes, but the A8 and the A2 are volume production vehicles unlike the Cobra. Many people drive A8's and A2's.

I could tell you that in 1953, the Porsche 550 spyder had an all-aluminum engine with dual overhead cams, 4 valves per cylinder, titanium connecting rods, and made over 100 hp per liter of displacement. But the 550 spyder was hardly an everyday-people car.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[djupedal]

The qualifier was perhaps 'innovator'...which is different than 'volume production', and that was what prompted my comment :) Audi used aluminum in various instances in the past, I'm sure, but as far as a retail product, the A8 doesn't break any ground, body wise. Don't get me wrong, I think they are superb automobiles.

Wonder what preceeded the Porsche...who lays claim to the first aluminum body...?

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[YOU LIKEWISE FAIL IT]

do they actually make magnesium framed mountain bikes

Sure. Merida , Pinarello and Lodestar are some manufacturers. I am told a British firm ( Kirk? ) made a magnesium framed bike back in the late 1980's.

Merida have a little puff piece about the benefits of Magnesium for bike frames here.

YLFI

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[Anonymous Coward]

Bush did steal the election, and a nation of obese slack-jawed ignoramuses let him do it.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[evilviper]

I think it was mostly an infrastructure problem- either lack or incompatibility.

Umm, what other possible reasons are there? Maybe there was "too much" infrastructure for it to work?

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[paulerdos]

i live in the seattle area, and this seems very useful. it is often the case that for the two bridges over lake washington (520 and 90 on the screen on the linked page), when one of them is clogged, the other is (significantly) less clogged. it's usually more often the case that 90 is less clogged than 520 than the reverse, but anyway, this device seems very useful.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[uradu]

> but as far as a retail product, the A8 doesn't break any ground, body wise

Aluminum unibody doesn't break new ground? Only for Audi, perhaps. You don't seem to understand the HUGE difference between any-material-on-steel-frame versus bulding the whole structure, frame and crumple zones and all, from the same material. The vehicles you mentioned were about as all-aluminum as the Vette is all-fiberglass. In fact, they all share a very similar design, except for the material of the panels they bolt on the outside. The whole trick with the Audi is bonding all the extruded aluminum parts together into a single body, since it can't be welded easily like steel. And yes, Jaguar started selling a vehicle of similar construction recently, but Audi has been doing so for ten years.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[uradu]

> the Porsche 550 spyder had an all-aluminum engine with dual overhead cams

Well, Daimler-Benz made an all-aluminum V12 with fuel injection and 1400hp output as far back as the '30s. They used to mount them in these strange looking three-wheeled single seater vehicles with tons of machine guns and cannons up front. Aluminum engines aren't anything new really.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[i_really_dont_care]

Supposedly the Audi navigation systems were going to support this as well...as early as 1999 or 2000 in the US, but to my knowledge they're still not doing it; I have no idea about the euro units.

They are pretty much standard in the higher Audi models (A6 and A8) in Germany. I think they use extra information from radio programs, but I might be wrong. If there is a traffic jam somewhere, this is shown on the map the GPS unit displays, at least if it is on the highway. You can advise the unit to automatically calculate an alternative route. Most of the time, manual intervention is required, though, to completely avoid the traffic jam.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[radish]

This is really common in the UK - a company called TrafficMaster gather data from their own network of sensors over most major roads in the country and make it available in a number of ways. You can get it off their website (with a sub), through a variety of standalone devices like the one in the article (except more flexible as they cover the entire network) or licensed to integrated in-car systems. My parents BMW has had TrafficMaster integrated into the GPS nav system for a good few years now - not only can it show you how to get somewhere it can find a quicker route if the traffic's bad.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[Anonymous Coward]

BMW has got similar ones too. It's priceless around central europe - keeps you out of trafficjams by calculating alternate routes with less traffic.
Don't you have this in the US? I mean, this is hardly new is it?
Before - the US seemed to be ahead when it came to IT.. but now? - whats up with you guys on the other side of the pond?

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[rat7307]

do they actually make magnesium framed mountain bikes

[badjoke] Yup

You just gotta keep 'em out of the rain!! :]

[/badjoke]

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy crap! Are you really saying that every highway in central Europe has traffic speed sensors every few km? Who paid for all that? Does each country get a copy of all the traffic speed data to distribute via some radio station in each city, or what?

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[gilleyj]

Not only do they make magnesium bike frames, in the 60's Formula One/Can Am/GT/etc tyre rims and a wide variety of other bits and parts of the cars were made from cast magnesium.

check this out

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[Lumpy]

I had that feature in my Autopc in 1999. there was a paging/data module you installed that would give you traffic data in text form or in speech based on your gps location.

the autopc had great ideas, but was crippled with running wince and horrible marketing and ZERO help or collabration by the other companies.. same as the Clarion Joyride today... it's a neat idea that will continue to be worthless because all the data companies and hardware companies would rather flip each other the bird than get together to make something very cool.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm guessing incompatible standards or lack of coverage. The auto companies aren't going to bother if there isn't nationwide coverage and a guaranteed (large) minimum user base. They work on volume, after all. Now, why you can't get it installed as an aftermarket thing at the local dealerships is a good question...

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[Rzzle]

Better still, they have their own sat nav system called SmartNAV. This is an offboard navigation system which means the that powerful central computers monitor traffic conditions and can offer a new route if the current one is affected. The routes are downloaded to the car unit via the GSM network.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[Anonymous Coward]

Does each country get a copy of all the traffic speed data to distribute via some radio station in each city, or what

Nah, that wouldn't be sinsible; all you need is the local information for the area you're currently driving through. The traffic information is broadcast by radio stations that also also have normal traffic information; that way the radio can automaticaly pick out a local channel with the relevant information.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[nullman]

This info would have been very helpful to me when I lived and worked in the Los Angeles, CA area. There where three different freeways (and about 6 different routes) I could take going to and from work. The best one to take depended on the time of day, what functions where happening in town, and which freeways ones had accidents on them. I would always check the Cal Trans web page before leaving work to pick my route.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[einer]

Honestly, I question the value of such information in the first place.

I agree. My ideal navigation tool fits on my palm pilot, and has current public transportation tables. It should also tell me where I am, relative to the closest bus stop/transit center.

In a city with enough pt, I could get by without my car entirely. As it is, I'm just too lazy to a.) find all the bus stops, and b.) memorize the route tables.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[urbazewski]

why can't auto makers put this kind of thing in a dash

The more autos it's installed in, the less effective it becomes. Giving people access to identical information about conditions can even increase traffic congestion, a phenomena we also observed in a computer model of decentralized agents learning to solve a simple coordination game. The paper has references to the transportation literature, where this result has been known for some time.

Here's a link to .pdf of the paper Coordination Failure as a Source of Congestion, the abstract is here.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[briareus]

Honestly, I question the value of such information in the first place. Rarely are other routes unblocked, at least here in Boston. You're pretty much screwed no matter which way you go. If that wasn't enough, they randomly close/open exits due to the massive construction(the Big Dig), and in the last 6-12 months, lots of big changes have been going on as new tunnels and exchanges open(which is going to wreak havoc with people with old databases for their nav systems!)

The rather simple data available via the Houston Real-Time Traffic Map is incredibly useful here. Slow or dead traffic along a segment of a freeway means it's clearly pointless to even get on the freeway. I guess we're lucky that the region is flat and free of mountains, hills, and bodies of water for the most part(if you can call that lucky). It means you can always find an alternate route via the streets...

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[Ben Hutchings]

So if it gets popular, you should buy one and do the opposite of what it suggests... until everyone figures that out, at which point you switch to doing what it says... rinse, repeat.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[tchapin]

Well, Vindigo can give you closest public transportation stops (although only T, not bus), and Commute can give you schedules. The MBTA has it's own bus, train, etc schedule program for the Palm, but it's retarded and not useful. They didn't create any type of "auto-update" feature, nor is it quick and easy to view several schedules at the same time.

Commute, which seems to be the best option, and while useful, takes a bit of work to get the schedules into it. Partly this is because the MBTA is run by idiots (schedules are in PDF or poorly formated text), and partly because the commute schedule format is a bit wonky. Several people have wrote programs to import MBTA schedules into Commute, but their installation and maintenance is more work than just doing the schedules yourself.

Todd

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[azav]

In Germany, there are traffic channels which help people avoid nasty crashes when fog and Autobahn speeds overlap.

Would help us ignant Americans to have a passenger who actually understands German AND can pay attention to the radio when driving the Passau - Munich route at 200 Kph.

Not like I've ever done that mind you.

Not in this century anyway.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[chunkwhite86]

Well, Daimler-Benz made an all-aluminum V12 with fuel injection and 1400hp output as far back as the '30s. They used to mount them in these strange looking three-wheeled single seater vehicles with tons of machine guns and cannons up front. Aluminum engines aren't anything new really.

Aluminum has been used extensively in engine building for decades now, true.

But the combination of 1. all-aluminum engine, 2. dual overhead cams, 3. four valves per cylinder, 4. the use of titanium in the engine, 5. an engine that produces over 100hp per liter, and here's the kicker: 6. all of the above in a street legal road car.

It was point #6 that I found to be astounding. Those points listed above are still considered advanced today - the fact that this was the '50's when that car was built makes it even more amazing.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[mph]

Aluminum unibody doesn't break new ground? Only for Audi, perhaps.

You mean like the Acura NSX since model year 1991?

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[uradu]

You got that one. In fact, they claim it to have been the first production all-aluminum car. But considering that most of its high cost is due to the aluminum body, they certainly hadn't perfected the process yet. In terms of perfecting mass production techniques that can make all-aluminum cars affordable to most people, Audi has contributed a lot more. Their A2 model is paving the way still further. Here is a list of aluminum-using cars, but the NSX is about as representative as the Ferrari Modena in terms of production numbers.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[uradu]

>6. all of the above in a street legal road car.

Well, for that time anyway. I doubt it would be certified street legal today. You'd have to add hundreds of pounds of safety features and exhaust scrubbers and lose the power-to-weight ratio game.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[mph]

I agree about the NSX not having much widespread influence, and would say the same about the A8 (since it's a $70k car). That the NSX still costs as much as it does, with so little improvement since its debut, is a shame. It should sell for $70k or less as well these days.

But the aluminum A2 is an interesting development, and hopefully will lead to more widespread use of aluminum. I see from your link that Honda use an aluminum unibody on the Insight, which is still fairly low production and has high manufacturing costs, but is at least an improvement over the NSX in that regard.

My car's got an aluminum roof, but it didn't make the list...

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[uradu]

> and would say the same about the A8 (since it's a $70k car)

I would still say that the A8 paved the way, because while it didn't have huge production numbers, it can be considered a test bed of aluminum production processes, allowing Audi (and Alcoa I'm sure) to gain a lot of experience in working with the material. For example, it seems that in the long term welding will probably be out and other types of bonding--such as various glues--will be used instead. Some manufacturers (Jaguar I believe) use rivets, but not everybody finds that acceptable, for weight, strength and aesthetic reasons.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[chunkwhite86]

Well, for that time anyway. I doubt it would be certified street legal today. You'd have to add hundreds of pounds of safety features and exhaust scrubbers and lose the power-to-weight ratio game.

And so would the (not-all-aluminum) AC Cobra. Your point?

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[uradu]

> Your point?

None really. I thought you had referenced pounds per horsepower originally, but it was hp per liter, so my power-to-weight comment doesn't apply.

Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[racermd]

Actually, most *good* GPS navigation units will automatically recalculate the route to your destination if you go off-course. My laptop/software/GPS combo will do this, but only after you tell it to "Recalculate from here." The system in my cousin's '01 Acura did this without any prompting at all. Just drive away from the traffic jam and see where it tells you to go.

What I'm waiting for, though, is vehicle manufacturers to start making HUD's standard equipment, and to integrate the navigation system to it. The only car that I'm currently aware of that even offers a HUD as standard equipment is the Corvette. I do remember some Pontiacs that had them a few years back, too. I'm not familiar enough with the european models to know if that's the case on the other side of the proverbial pond, but I'm pretty sure that there isn't any european manufacturer exporting any models with a HUD to the USA. And I don't think there's any asian import that offers a HUD, either. If there *are* other cars out there factory-equipped with a HUD, please let me know. I'm looking for one. (Obviously, it's not the only criteria I'm looking for in a car, but it'll have a big advantage to me.)

I'd love a reconfigurable HUD that shows the basics (tach, speedo, oil press/temp, coolant temp, etc.) and adds the navigation/stereo instructions, as well (turn left/right X.X mi/km ahead, on what street/road/hwy, stereo volume/station/CD Track/etc.) A fine-resolution matrix of vac-flouro dots should do the trick.

Anybody know of a DIY solution? I'm just too lazy to do a real search for it right now...

Mostly worthless GPS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently you're not using it for the right things, like precisely aiming missiles at your neighbor's houses.

*sigh* Google link

[1010011010]

That was fast... IIS is complaining of too many users.

Cache

Re:*sigh* Google link

[Anonymous Coward]

A bunch of red x's with two sentences is real useful there.

Re:*sigh* Google link

[Azadre]

Thanks a bunch! IIS complain? No... it is the best product Microsoft has ever released. Oh wait, that says a lot.:)

page down...

[jethro200]

may have to go with Google's cached version of the page.

Running this site on XP Pro or what?

[greendot]

There are only 4 comments posted and already the site is slashed.

Slashdot should make a pay service that gives out links a few hours ahead of the main pack. What's an "infojunkie" to do these days?

Re:Running this site on XP Pro or what?

[terradyn]

Slashdot should make a pay service that gives out links a few hours ahead of the main pack.

Yeah, and they should make it only for subscribers.

Re:Running this site on XP Pro or what?

[Jad LaFields]

What are you doing trying to read the article, anyway.

You're just supposed to reload the front page over and over again trying to get the "frost piss" post, which I have been told means "first post". Or maybe "Eskimo Latrine". Hmmmm...

Re:Running this site on XP Pro or what?

[Anonymous Coward]

actually thanks to the error message and MS tracking shite on the link i can tell

http://www.microsoft.com/ContentRedirect.asp?
p rd =iis&pver=5.0&pid=&ID=403.9&cat=web&os=&over=&hrd= &Opt1=&Opt2=&Opt3=

Re:Running this site on XP Pro or what?

[Anonymous Coward]

It does. I subscribe and I got the link at least 15 minutes before everyone else.

You (and the person who modded you up) surely researched that before posting (and moderating), correct?

That is what I thought...

(Posting this off-topic post anonymously)

Re:Running this site on XP Pro or what?

[cmacb]

Either that or they are running on a copy of server where you type all 1s for the registration code, I heard once that it has the same effect.

Re:Running this site on XP Pro or what?

[Anonymous Coward]

you are worthless. slashdot has had that feature [slashdot.org] for about a month now

you are foreign. a slashdot url with 03/03/06 in it refers to march 3rd, not june 3rd. european troll.

hmm, probably do some research on the topic and learn for yourself? nah.

foreign.

Re:Running this site on XP Pro or what?

[Anonymous Coward]

03/03/06 is an encoding of 2003-03-06, which is March 6th, 2003 (not March 3rd, 2006 as you apparently believe).

Re:Running this site on XP Pro or what?

[davmoo]

No, Slashdot shouldn't do that (besides, they already do...its called "subscription").

As I have said before, what they should do is temporarily host the site, so that the "real" server does not get slashdotted, and the owner of the real site does not get either cut off or get a massive bandwidth bill. The current system is every bit as effective at shutting down a server as is a DoS attack. If I had something neat up on a website, the LAST thing I would want now is for it to get noticed by the Slashdot crowd.

At the very least, the Powers That Be at Slashdot should email the site owner with a short "your site has been submitted to us for a story...do you really want that to happen?" type note.

Instead, we show our appreciation to the site author by locking up his server, getting his account closed, or making him pay hundreds of dollars for bandwidth. I'd hate to see what we do to people we don't appreciate...

Re:Running this site on XP Pro or what?

[steelshadow]

Does anyone have any statistics on the load a /. link puts on a web site? i.e. how many hits per minute or total hits in an hour, etc. Does putting a link here force hundreds, thousands, or millions of hits on a site?

Re:Running this site on XP Pro or what?

[Lord_Dweomer]

"I'd hate to see what we do to people we don't appreciate..."

Maybe you've heard about all of the fanmail Ralsky has been getting since his name and address have been posted on slashdot.

"Mostly Worthless"

[DerProfi]

Well, um, I suppose the reason most automakers (and consumers) prefer GPS is because it doesn't matter where the traffic is bad if you can't figure out how to get to your destination in the first place.

Re:"Mostly Worthless"

[geekmetal]

But it still appeals to the everyday commuter at least in the big US cities where driving is not a choice. Looks like a good idea, needs better coverage (try a state like Texas, which has absoulutely no public transport) and more of a compelling argument to sell.

Re:"Mostly Worthless"

[DNS-and-BIND]

Uhh...hate to break it to you but I've been taking public transport in Texas for years. But far be it for me to tell a new-account flamer what to say.

Re:"Mostly Worthless"

[red floyd]

Or a city like Los Angeles, where what public transport there is, is worthless. (TPTB have decided, in their infinite wisdom, that everybody wants to go downtown, which is bogus).

Re:"Mostly Worthless"

[red floyd]

I don't know, but LA is so geographically spread out that that adds a minimum of an hour to any commute.

In addition, I said that they assume that everyone wants to go downtown, not wants to go through downtown. About 90% of the transit in LA is inbound in the mornings and outbound in the evening. The problem is that LA has about 7 or 8 "centers", not just downtown.

Because...

[Anonymous Coward]

At only five Slashdot posts, it's already down. Can you really trust millions of car owners using it at the same time without causing it to piss itself?

Re:Because...

[applef00]

I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but I'll answer anyway. It doesn't make any sort of request to a server for the information. The traffic data is broadcast along with AM/FM radio signals (KIRO 710 and KOMO 1000 are good examples).

Re:Will it help sniff out hypocricy and treachery?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, timothy nailed you quick for that. You'd think those editors might be a tad more lenient with the embarrassment michael's caused /.

You mean...

[TampaTim]

an overloaded IIS web-server? No don't have one of those!

I wonder how long will it be before...

[DerProfi]

we see the first traffic fatality caused by some asshat paying too much attention to their TrafficGauge(tm) and not enough to TheRealTrafficRightInFrontOfYou(tm).

Re:I wonder how long will it be before...

[Kong99]

You forgot to mention he was also eating and talking on his cellphone too! I wonder if this guy is the same one who turns on his blinker right when he makes his turn...

Re:I wonder how long will it be before...

[Anonymous Coward]

"I wonder if this guy is the same one who turns on his blinker right when he makes his turn..."

in LA (and any other major city I would guess) turning on your signal 9 times out of 10 will make the car in the other lane close up the gap so its the only way to change lanes.

Re:I wonder how long will it be before...

[theglassishalf]

He most defiantly is not the guy who turns his blinker on right before he makes is turn. People in Washington state don't use signal lights. I'm not even sure if all cars are equipped with them.

CF Card?

[lpret]

How long do you think it will be before this is available as a CF card for your Pocket PC?

Re:CF Card?

[Rick the Red]

Is now soon enough? All you need is a modem.

Re:CF Card?

[darnok]

Oh yeah, can't wait for that...

Clippy: "You appear to be driving towards an Oracle dealer. Would you like me to:
- redirect you to Microsoft?
- set fire to your vehicle?"

Re:CF Card?

[ibbey]

So, I buy a Pocket PC for $300, a modem for $200+, and pay many many dollars a month for the connectivity... Or, pay $50 for the TrafficGuage and $5 a month for the service. I wonder which way is the way to go...

Re:CF Card?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about www.mapopolis.com ? It's a gps/mapping program for pocket pc and palm that also downloads traffic data and will create your routes based on the information it receives. You can get the info when you sync right before you leave or from your cell phone wireless service or whatever you want to use for wireless internet access. Good stuff.

Re:CF Card?

[Rick the Red]

For some people this is $50 they could spend toward a PDA phone, rather than the separate PDA and cell phone they were going to get anyway, and $5/month they can use toward their cell phone bill. Many GSM rateplans include enough data to cover this one application.

In-dash distraction

[gumpish]

Anytime you're moving and your eyes aren't on the road, you're putting yourself and everyone around you at much greater risk. When my regime rises to power, everyone will be required to ride a motorcycle for 1 year as their only motor vehicle before getting a license for a car. Weed out the bad drivers...

Re:In-dash distraction

[TrackDaddy]

Anytime you're moving and your eyes aren't on the road, you're putting yourself and everyone around you at much greater risk. When my regime rises to power, everyone will be required to ride a motorcycle for 1 year as their only motor vehicle before getting a license for a car. Weed out the bad drivers...

Of course you will make an exception for Cadillac and Volvo drivers wont you? I mean, they will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes?!? Right? Please? For the good of all us motorcyclists?!?!

Re:In-dash distraction

[chunkwhite86]

Anytime you're moving and your eyes aren't on the road, you're putting yourself and everyone around you at much greater risk. When my regime rises to power, everyone will be required to ride a motorcycle for 1 year as their only motor vehicle before getting a license for a car. Weed out the bad drivers...

Amen. I just want to kill people when I see some dumb bitch soccer mom driving a Hummer or Expedition and yapping on a cell phone. She can't drive for shit to begin with, but add the poor visibility and bad handling of an SUV with the distraction of the cell phone, and that's why we have so many traffic accidents (and therefore so much traffic).

Or some fat slob chumping on a Big Mac in his crappy wife-made-me-get-it minivan while on the highway.

Damn that pisses me off.

Re:In-dash distraction

[chunkwhite86]

Damn...need some anger management classes Champ?

Arrrrrggghhh!!!

DO I LOOK LIKE I NEED ANGER MANAGEMENT CLASSES?!?

What the hell is wrong with you people!!?????

Re:In-dash distraction

[gwbuhl]

Or how about those people that ride a bicycle to work. I've gotten real good at identify those drivers that are oblivious enough to kill me. Roads are are fro transportation, not neccisarily cars.

Re:In-dash distraction

[Anonymous Coward]

stay in the bike lane and there'll be no problems. the next time I see some spedo wearing fool blocking a lane on a 2 lane busy street, Im mowing you down.

ac

Re:In-dash distraction

[curtlewis]

I've often felt that 1 year on a motorcycle should be a requirement for a driver's license. It teaches you to watch the road conditions better and be FAR more observant of people's actions.

I'm glad to see someone else feels the same way. Let's start a petition and make it happen!

Re:In-dash distraction

[sethanon]

Yep, because we need more people who think it is a good idea to squeeze in between two adjacent lanes of traffic at a set of lights.

I've no doubt that a large percentage of motorcycle accidents are caused by the carelessness of some drivers in larger vehicles. I would also suggest that a significant number of accidents arise out of the sheer recklessness of some motorcycle/bicycle riders.

Re:In-dash distraction

[ibbey]

Most accidents are fender-benders in rush-hour traffic. If you can avoid being in the traffic to begin with, you can avoid those sorts of accidents. The beauty of this device is that it's designed to be able to be read at a glance. The display is always the same, the only thing that changes is the specific time-sensitive data. Since the roads are always in the same place on the map, you can glance at your route & decide whether to take an alternative route or not in a second.

I agree with your basic premise, but I suspect that this sort of device will prevent far more accidents then it will contribute to. By reducing the volume of cars in traffic jams, slowdowns will clear quicker, driver moods will improve (thereby -increasing- driver attention), people will be more likely to not be running late (and therefore driving more sanely), etc.

Re:In-dash distraction

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm... When my regime comes to power, something similar will happen, but it'll be a little different than that. You'll get to have a license for a year, but in order to renew it after that point, you'll have to take and pass a college-level physics class (mechanics only, we won't bother with electrical, optics, etc.). And by that I mean a real physics class, where you are required to solve problems on the tests that are not just the same as the ones in the book with the numbers changed.

There will be some who bitch and moan, but it'll just be too bad. They'll have had at least a year's notice and a taste of the mobility that a car can offer. If they can't do it with ample time and a nice concrete incentive to motivate them, then they can ride the bus/train/etc.

As an added benefit, the nation's schools will be full of students who are motivated to learn math so they can learn physics so they can earn the privilege of driving. Plus, usage of public transportation will increase so much that maybe it'll actually become mainstream enough to be worth building real infrastructure.

(Which reminds me of my plan to boost usage of public transit in the US: free WiFi Internet access on all buses, trains, etc. The busy professional can hop on the bus and get a jump on dealing with their inbox while everyone else is wasting time commuting. Public transit could be transformed from something that's "for people who can't afford a car" to something that the upper class uses just as much. That would benefit public transit in all kinds of ways, not the least of which is funding. Now if I could only solve the "hey, that thug stole my laptop" problem that's so easy to anticipate...)

Re: In-dash distraction

[gidds]

'Strue. When I use my GPS, I wedge it next to my speedometer on the dash, and only glance down to it occasionally and momentarily. (Probably no more than I do the speedo at other times.) It's still a distraction, though.

How long will it be before we see head-up displays for things like that? If implemented well, this would eliminate two problems: the looking down, and the refocusing (which, depending on your eyes, may be more of a limiting factor). The technology has been around for decades, and can't be any harder for people to get used to than the dash was.

Re:In-dash distraction

[Anonymous Coward]

everyone will be required to ride a motorcycle for 1 year as their only motor vehicle before getting a license for a car. Weed out the bad drivers...

Huh, you and I must not know the same motorcycle riders... At least one of the people I know routinely rides at over 100 mph.on roads in urban Maryland. Seems to me that there's no correlation between riding a motorcycle and being a safe driver.

Re:In-dash distraction

[Imperator]

I've always wondered by cars can't get HUDs like fighter planes have. I'd love to see my speed etc. projected onto the windshield so I don't have to take my eyes off the road.

Re:In-dash distraction

[bloodstains]

Lane splitting is legal. At least in some states

Re:In-dash distraction

[jandrese]

That or the Asshat in the BMW who is too busy planning the next four people to cut off to actually notice the cars next to him that he's running off the road.

That or the immigrant family driving some beat up POS in the left lane doing 10mph below the flow of traffic, completely oblivious to the traffic jam forming behind them.

Re:In-dash distraction

[Abalamahalamatandra]

They're available on some Pontiacs, at least - my boss's Grand Prix has a HUD that projects the speed on the windshield in front of the steering wheel.

I believe some Cadillacs also have HUDs for the night-vision system that's available.

Re:In-dash distraction

[3waygeek]

ISTR some of the higher-end GM cars (Cadillac, Buick) do have limited HUD capabilities.

Re:In-dash distraction

[rthille]

Anytime you're moving and your eyes aren't on the road, you're putting yourself and everyone around you at much greater risk.

That's why I support doing away with Spedometers in cars!

Re:In-dash distraction

[gumpish]

I've no doubt that a large percentage of motorcycle accidents are caused by the carelessness of some drivers in larger vehicles. I would also suggest that a significant number of accidents arise out of the sheer recklessness of some motorcycle/bicycle riders.

Certainly. Those individuals incapable of the physical coordination and mental focus required to operate a motorcycle would Darwin themselves away before they even got behind the wheel of a car under my system.

I really like the suggestion someone else made in this thread about people on two-wheelers being immune to all traffic laws if they weren't wearing a helmet.

Seriously though, The System Is Broken. I'm all for privacy, but OTOH I think it would be nice if every car/truck/SUV contained technology that recorded each time the driver slammed on their brakes, turned without signalling, swerved, etc. This data could then be analyzed and used to punish bad/erratic drivers.

This would require cars that could be nerfed. Like if you made X number of lane changes in a single year without signalling, the DMV could make your steering wheel lock (or at least give increased resistance) unless the signal was active, effectively forcing you to signal before changing direction. If you constantly slam on your brakes, the DMV could lower the maximum speed of your car and possibly reduce the acceleration as well.

But it'll never happen. After all, as soon as we start taking away driving priviliges, the terrorists have won.

Re:In-dash distraction

[caino59]

wow, your against privacy rights huh?

analyze that data...why not throw in GPS to constantly track you

help them catch criminals, right?

just because we can - doesn't mean we should.

yea, i know. way off-topic.

I do however agree that motorcyclists should have the option of a helmet. Most every rider I know would not pass on a helmet (and you can go without on in PA, after 2 years experience) It's just ignorant to not wear one, but at that point, you should probably be eliminated from the gene pool

Article text

[Anonymous Coward]

reprinted July 2003 for slashdot.org


The page cannot be displayed

There are too many people accessing the Web site at this time.

Please try the following:

• Click the Refresh button, or try again later.
  
• Open the www.trafficgauge.com home page, and then look for links to the information you want.

HTTP 403.9 - Access Forbidden: Too many users are connected
Internet Information Services

Technical Information (for support personnel)

• Background:
  This error can occur if the Web server is busy and cannot process your request due to heavy traffic.

• More information:
  Microsoft Support

Re:Article text

[MrPower]

Newsflash: Microsoft have started litigation against the owner of the popular 'Slashdot' website for breaching copyright by publishing an illegal copy of one of their error messages.

Stop Press: Litigation against Slashdot has been suspended amid claims from SCO president, Darl McBride, that the aforementioned error message was illegally derived from the Unix source code.

Re:Article text

[FesterWim]

Also notice how very helpful IE tries to be. There are too many users, but still they recommend to go the www.trafficgauge.com front page.

Re:Article text

[Ben Hutchings]

Ironically TrafficGauge failed to predict congestion on its own web site.

Secondly, why is that classified as a 403 error? The problem is with the server so the error code should be 5xx.

User suggestions?

[Mints]

California's Department of Transportation is working on a similar system and I am working on the backend to a web interface similar to WSDOT's.

If there are any users of similar systems for planning travel routes/times on slashdot, what features did you find valuable, superfluous, or altogether lacking?

Is it valuable to have historic data? If so, how far back? Archived hourly analysis of traffic volumes, average time of travel on predefined routes? As a user, would you be interested in data beyond delays and congestion. Site specific information giving visibility, weather, etc?

Thank you for any responses!

Re:User suggestions?

[Anonymous Coward]

I used wsdot extensively for several years.

The historical data is not useful in it's current format. I usually want to know things like - what is traffic usually like on this day of the week? how about on a holiday? Those sorts of higher level questions are not accessible through the web interface.

I wish wsdot was better at displaying accidents because they have such a dramatic impact on traffic flow.

Another feature I really wanted was notifications. Frequently I would refresh every few minutes while I waited for traffic to die down. It'd be better for everyone if the monitoring site would just send me an email when my route was unclogged.

Things like weather/visibility/etc. don't strike me as must haves unless they affect traffic (ie - heavy fog on 17).

Re:User suggestions?

[Mints]

I think the notification idea is brilliant. If a user could create a travel profile that they would use on a daily basis, they could be provided with information concerning unusual traffic patterns, the rise and fall of peak volumes, etc. Probably won't get to do it, but I think it is great nonetheless.

Realtime accident data is important too, and hopefully incorporated.

I hope to be able just what you pointed out, making accessible trends for the day of the week, travel around holidays. Exactly.

Thank you a lot for your input.

Re:User suggestions?

[widderslainte]

Commericial Real Estate lives and demographics. How many cars pass by a particular location each day is a key piece of marketing info. I imagine it would be very vaulable ($$$) if made available inthe right format.

Re:User suggestions?

[Anonymous Coward]

Historical data would be sweet. I use tann (when it works, sigh), and have been meaning to write a scraper to accumulate data.. the theory being to profile the slowdowns, so that (should I find a nice model) I could predict near-term traffic to decide when to head out.

A friend of mine wrote a scraper for that site that would SMS him incident data, but that didn't prove very useful .. the data was usually rather stale.

However, making all the data available through an API as well as the usual pretty picture would be very nice: people will more easily come up with neat applications that way.

Re:User suggestions?

[P!Alexander]

While I lived in Los Angeles I thought about a system like this every day during my 45-minute-without-traffic and 1.5-to-3-hour-with-traffic commute (Along with transporters, automatically driven cars, and moving sidewalks). Here's what I wanted it to do:

- Calculate my time of commute based on current traffic conditions and historical data using similar trips (time of day, traffic conditions, weather conditions). Should be able to go back a year for historical information.

- Allow me to program my favorite routes to get to or from work, to the gym, to my girlfriend's place, etc.

- Compare the estimated time of completions of my different routes using method above and allow me to chose which route will be the best as I depart.

- Update route information with current traffic and (this is key) provide alternatives if traffic starts to back up at a given location that is on my planned route.

- Allow me to "steal" the routes of other people who are leaving from my current location and heading to a similar destination.

- Whether I am "stealing" a route from someone else or just travelling in the same direction, let me know how their trip is going to validate traffic sensor data. IE: If someone left my area 15 minutes before I did going in the same direction, use his data to let me know how things are going.

It would also be awesome if this system could handle street traffic. Maybe California should start installing traffic sensors into our beloved road reflectors.

Oh, and while you are at it give me a way to call the cute girl in the car next to me based on her license plate number.

Re:User suggestions?

[Mints]

Many good suggestions, though I think if we ever come to the functionality you describe, it will be from generous hackers and an XML stream, as others have mentioned.

Not that it wouldn't't be wonderful, but it's disappointingly difficult to get people (employers) to pay for such luxuries.

I'm depressed now.

Re:User suggestions?

[Mints]

With all the responses, it has become very obvious that an XML stream, or some other type of interface/api is necessary for this dataset. It would be a shame to leave a system underutilized with an inflexible and disappointingly sparse interface.

Seems pretty limited

[TampaTim]

So it looks like it is a fixed display(non-matrix) that basically tells you which of 4 interstates is congested or not. Seems like it answers one question, should I avoid the interstates, or not. What if they are? How would you know the best alternate route?

Re:Seems pretty limited

[Anonymous Coward]

Seattle/Bellevue traffic is severely constricted due to Puget Sound and Lake Washington. The "alternate routes" pretty much consist of SR99 (very limited WSDOT traffic sampling) and arterial streets (no sampling at all).

This device also answers the question "should I go now" (vs. later or not at all), and avoiding adding more cars to traffic jams seems useful.

Re:Seems pretty limited

[vample]

This device also answers the question "should I go now" (vs. later or not at all)

Presumeable you're asking whether you should leave when you're still at the home or office, where I'm guessing a geek with one of these would have net access, and thus able to answer the question better, in color and free at http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/pugetsoundtraffic/cameras/

Re:Seems pretty limited

[Nogami_Saeko]

I like that all of their data is available to the public too..

Specs for the WSDOT data files

If you have some programming ability and a PDA/Phone with a mobile internet link, you could write your own software to process the data however you wish for free.

Nice!

Re:Seems pretty limited

[Anonymous Coward]

holy shit!

1. traffic jam
2. Specs for WSDOT dat files and some programing skills.
3. PROFIT!!!!

alternate site for info

[emcron]

Since the product site is hosed check out this article from KOMO News in Seattle. Article even has a video of the story they did on the device.

Not quite a mirror, but better than nothing.

Instant answers mmmkay

[GillBates0]

From their What it can do page:
You'll find TrafficGauge indispensable if you've ever wondered...
Will I hit traffic on this route? Should I go a different way?
Do I need to leave now, or can I spare a few minutes?
Can I make it to the meeting, day care, or movie on time?
With TrafficGauge, you'll know the answers instantly--at a glance!

So, like, you ask it these questions and it'll come back with:
"You will definetly hit traffic on this and any alternate route that you may choose. You could either leave now, or a couple of minutes later...doesn't really matter, you won't be able to make it to the meeting, day care or movie on time anyway.
And remember, roadrage is bad mmmkay. Happy driving

Re:Instant answers mmmkay

[realdpk]

"You will definetly hit traffic on this and any alternate route that you may choose. You could either leave now, or a couple of minutes later...doesn't really matter, you won't be able to make it to the meeting, day care or movie on time anyway."

Hey neighbor, you too must be from the Puget Sound area. Where the traffic report can usually be summarized as "Good" or "Bad" overall.

Re:Instant answers mmmkay

[johnlcallaway]

This made me laugh. Living in Phoenix, AZ this is exactly how I plan my day. If I can't leave for work by 7:00am, I leave at 8:15am. If I can't leave work by 4:30pm, I stay until 5:30pm. I listen to NPR 15 minutes before I leave home, and sit in my large gas-guzzlin truck for 5 minutes while the AC cools it down and try to catch it before I leave. I drive in one of the right most lanes so I can get off the road at the first sign of trouble. Driving smart gets me the 20 miles home most days in 20-30 minutes.

Those who will suggest biking to work as an alternative should be forced to bike 20 miles in 100-115 degree heat to and from a workplace without a shower. Some do it, and my helmet is tipped off to them. But not this undertall, athletic-ability challenged geek.

Would I buy one?? Depends on the cost. But not if I have to pay a monthly fee. I'm getting 5 and 10 dollar-a-monthed to death as it is. NPR is free, except for the suckers that pay for it. BWA-HA-HA-HA!!!!

Re:Instant answers mmmkay

[the argonaut]

Living in and being from Tempe, AZ (for the non-locals, a suburb), this is exactly the kind of attitude that really irks me.

1.) Yes, it is hot here. As far as I know, it was hot here 500 years ago, it was hot here 27 years ago when I was a little kid, and guess what, it's going to be hot again tomorrow. If you didn't know this before you moved here, then we have bigger issues to deal with. Oh, and don't believe that "it's a dry heat" BS. IT'S HOT. Turn off your wussy AC and get used to it or move. Just don't move to Flagstaff: we don't need any more people up there.

2.) While I myself do not ride twenty miles to work, I do ride just shy of nine, and I am no where near challenging Lance Armstrong in the next Tour. In fact, one of the reasons I started riding a bike to work is because I was sick of being athletically challenged. So give it a try.

3.) While it is lacking in oh so many ways, there is public transportation here, and trust me, it has improved tremendously in the past five years. Give it a try. You can even take that bike you purchased in #2 and put it on the front of the bus, so you can bike part way and bus part way to work.

Oh, and if you live too far out to ride the bus...then move closer. Freakin' sprawling housing developments should all be razed anyways.

4.) And finally, if you decide you absolutely have to drive then get rid of that gas guzzling POS and get a commuter car, you know - something that will consume less than 3-4 gallons of gas each day.

I half apologize for the tone of my rant, but as somebody born and raised in Arizona, who has split his time mostly between Flagstaff and the lesser Phoenix area (as it is now becoming), I really get upset about people who move here and then feel they need to terraform it so that it looks and feels like some crappy SoCal or Jersey suburb, rather then taking the time to adapt to their new surroundings. Having now spent the three of the last four years living around the country before moving back here, I am only more certain that Arizona is one of the most beautiful states in the country, and I wish that people moving here (something that I have mixed feelings about) would really takt the time to move here and live here and love it here.

Re:Instant answers mmmkay

[johnlcallaway]

Yada yada yada...

You remind me of my vegan 18 year old son. Give me a call in 20 years when you are making the big big bucks and getting old(er) and work 12 hours days 8 times a month, and 36 hour days twice a month without any compensation or advance notice.

If you have biked or taken a bus everyone of those days, then you can stand tall on your high horse and shout. But if you drove just once, then take it all back.

I used to live in Maine, and before that Ohio, and biked every nice day to work. When I lived in Maine, I biked every single summer day for two years because I didn't have a car.

You know what, it sucked. Not every day, but most days. Between the traffic, heat, humidity, and rain, it sucked. And AZ traffic and drivers are the most impolite bunch of SOBs I've ever met. No way in hell I would bike everyday on the street, and the many bikepaths only get me close to work. I still have to ride a couple of miles down University. I rode, once, and vowed never to do it again. Ok, not true. I've threatened to do it again.

And piss off about the truck. I have a truck because I need a truck. I needed a truck when I lived in Maine, I needed a truck when I moved to AZ, and I need a truck here. I'm passed the point in my life when buying a 35" TV or PVC pipe needs to be an adventure. My girlfriend has a car, and it only gets about 8 MPG more than mine. So pphpppttpt to the commuter car crap. I used to drive Escorts and Omnis and even a Yugo and got 35-40 MPG. But those cars all suck. No space to carry anything. You were lucky to be able to get a weeks worth of groceries for a family of 4 in them. (Now, if someone could come out with a decent hybrid truck, that I would buy....)

I don't half apologize for the tone of my rant, but as someone who has lived in many places in this country, there is no place yet I have found that biking to work more than a couple of miles doesn't suck.

All of you twenty-somethings can have all the sucking fun.

I take it you have turned off the AC in your house and office also. Good for you. I don't mind some of the heat, but I also don't mind spending 75 bucks a month to keep my apartment around 83 degrees. That's right, my thermostat is set at 83, not 75, or 72 or 68 . I walk around all day in shorts and no shirt and scare all the neighbors that might look into my window. My Arizona friends that come over think I'm nuts, but when I lived in Maine, if I kept my house warm then it was very, very cold when I went outside. So I do the opposite here and find that I don't mind being outside in 110 degree days. At least, not in June and early July.

(Don't go all Sierra Club on me ... just presenting an alternate opinion.)

Re:Instant answers mmmkay

[the argonaut]

First where we agree:

Glad to hear you're making some effort to acclimate to the valley. No, I don't turn off my AC in the office, although I wish I could, as I spend most of my time freezing my bloody ass off, and I usually keep my apartment AC at around 85-90. Having grown up in a house in Phoenix with no air conditioning (it was quite the event when my dad put in the swamp cooler when I was five or so...), I've found it to be not at all uncomfortable. And I would agree with your point that it makes going outside a lot more comfortable when there isn't the large temperature differential.

And I would also agree with your point that Phoenix drivers are not exactly the most friendly in the world (yes, the understatement of the year). But Boston drivers are still a heck of a lot worse...

And now to go all Sierra Club on your ass:

To make a blanket statement like "But if you drove just once, then take it all back" is a pretty weak position. It's not about "Thou must never drive", it's about "Thou must drive only when necessary". So yeah, I'm moving in a few weeks and I'll rent a truck to move my stuff. If I'm going out of town camping, I'll rent a car if need be to get me there.

And no, you piss off about the truck. Escpecially since you apparently "need" a truck because you may on occasion have to go and pick up a TV or PVC pipe, but in the meantime you're driving around in a vehicle that is total overkill for a daily commute. You drive a truck because you want a truck, because you feel cooler driving a truck, and on occasion you may actually need a truck. You and about a million other selfish people in this city.

And biking doesn't "suck". You're lazy. I don't have a car and I bike by choice, not because I can't afford a car.

Finally, I'm barely a "twenty-something" and look forward to very soon being a "thirty-something" still enjoying all the "sucking fun".

Give my condolences to your son. I feel for him.

Re:Instant answers mmmkay

[johnlcallaway]

Very nice response, well above the usual crap that passes for replies here. And that is not sarcasm. I half expected a 'am not, am too' type response.

Hmmmm....too lazy to bike to work. Rather judgemental, aren't you? I could spend 40-60 minutes a day driving, or three hours a day biking (40 miles RT, avg. 12-15MPH). I think laziness is a factor in there a little bit, granted. But the one time I biked to work, I then spent several minutes in a sweat dreanced very unpleasant state. And that was when it was in the mid 70s. Most mornings now it's closer to 90. I've always been a sweater, even when I was in shape. As I mentioned, I also work in the tech industry. Two weeks ago I had three 12-15 hour days. I really don't relish riding my bike home at 10PM. Maybe come Nov. I'll try it again after my girlfriend moves here in three weeks so she could come and get me. She's moving from ME to AZ in the hottest, muggiest time of the year. Poor thing.

Oh, I live 20 miles from work because I want to live 2 1/2 miles. Confused?? I live where I live because the part of our company I want to work at is 2 1/2 miles from here. But my current desk is 20 miles away. So, biking will probably be in my future.

So, the only real difference is our definition of 'necessary'. You don't mind driving if it is your definition of 'inconvienent'. Just like all the Sierra clubbers, 'Oh, I'm much better than you because my definition of inconvienent is a lot lower'. That's a BS argument. If 10 lbs of pollution is bad, then 1lb is bad. You can't both belittle attitudes then turn around and justify polluting a little because someone does it more. Those arguments don't wash with me. You think that if everyone biked you could afford to rent that car or truck? How high would car/gas prices go if everyone biked? You indirectly benefit from the million AZers that drive trucks when you rent one.

I won't deny the accuracy of the statement, that it's best to pollute as little as possible. If I could afford three vehicles(my truck and my girlfriends car are two), then the third would be a small sports car. Maybe in a couple of years when the truck is paid off. One of those little two seaters, maybe a hybrid or F/C car if their out. But I find it difficult to reconcile the higher cost of a car (I have a cheaper truck) v/s the convienence of owning a truck today. (There's that convienence thing again.) My girlfriend has a car, and we drive that most other times. Well, we did when I lived in Maine.

Damn right I'm selfish. I have a truck because not having one is inconvienent. I went from a 20-25MPG car to a 17-21MPG truck when my car gave out on me because I didn't have a truck for three years and it sucked. The top of my car was all scratched up from all the hauling I did. And renting is also inconvienent, and downright 'spensive.

Speaking of which, don't rent a truck. If you don't know anyone with a truck, then we can try to figure out how to exchange email addresses privately and I'll help you move. It's a lot more fun to argue in person!!!!

Which brings us to my son. Don't feel sorry for my son. He loves his dad and our arguments. We have had some great knock-down, drag-out debates over vegan/carnivore choices. Then I would drive him to the food co-op in Tempe (Wild Oats sucks) and help him make good choices because he doesn't know how to shop. Too bad he doesn't live in AZ anymore, the two of you would get along great (he also bikes everywhere). He's back in Maine (didn't like AZ heat in May the wus). We often disagree, but he also knows his dad will support his choices. At least he's not gay (that's a joke, don't go all PC on me.)

Have fun camping, I hope it's up North.

Re:Instant answers mmmkay

[the argonaut]

What I meant in terms of the "I feel for him" is the apparent disparity between what you had inferred were his views and your own, and my own experiences with my family. I can only hope that you are more understanding with him then my family has been. I've been virtually disowned by most of the fam', mostly because I decided I wasn't going to sit back and listen to them berate me without any sort of discussion or understanding (my grandmother's favorite response: "Why do you always have to be so contrary?"). While I am very strong in my beliefs and make no apologies for them, I am generally willing to listen and discuss, and agree to disagree (hence my original "half apology": I apologized for the tone, not for the beliefs underlying it). Hence also my disdain for the typically "are not/are too" arguments.

Oh, and glad to hear you shop at Gentle Strength. Wild Oats/Whole Foods suck. Tip if you didn't already know it: Tuesday is member day (10% off).

Necessary vs. inconvenient is a line almost as difficult to draw as need vs. want. I try to draw the line as strict as possible. For example, in my moving scenario, it would not be possible to move my stuff without a truck. I'm moving to Tucson (going to back to school in the fall), and the desk, bed, and table would be rather tough to carry. Although I could probably get the rest of it in a couple of trips...

And I'll give ya that 40 miles a day on a bike would be a bit much, although it's still within the realm of possibility. I ain't budging on the truck though. Deal. :)

Thanks for the offer on the moving assistance. Better be careful - I may just take you up on it.

As far as the camping goes - Superstition Wilderness, baby. Boulder Canyon (sort of just south-ish of Canyon Lake). Best time of year to hike there - hot as hell, so no people...they're all up north.

p.s. - Sierra Clubbers rock!

Re:Instant answers mmmkay

[johnlcallaway]

Didn't say I shop there, now did I??? Even though the produce prices are pretty good, they tend to go bad before I get around to eating them (need more preservatives!). Once my lady gets here and I actually start cooking again, probably will since it is on my way home.

I understood your original comment about my son too, no apology necessary. He and my ex-wife do not get along at all. He didn't go the 'HS jock/college/MBA' route, and she got very upset. He knows dad is a bona-fide establishment/almost republican kind of person, and I know he will make a great one when he is 35 and gotten over this phase. Or at least that's how I tease him.

And Kudos for riding your bike and being Sierra clubber, I don't want to sound like I was belittling it either. A little too environmental oriented for my personal tastes, but Hey!, that's what makes the world go round and keeps the truck-driven, gas-guzzlen, cow-eaten varmits like me in check. It would be a very boring and dangerous place if we all agreed, now wouldn't it.

You can send an email to fredisdead at coxdotnet if you want to take me up on the truck. It's a disposable account, so if anyone else gets it and bothers me, I'll just close it. I use it for any web form that needs an email address.

Later dude....

How to finance these

[serutan]

Notice that the device has a "Home Game" symbol that alerts you to major events. Good feature! In my 15 years of commuting around the Seattle area, the commercial activities of the Mariners, Sonics and Seahawks have collectively added hundreds of hours of commute time to my life and have never compensated me in any way. How about if sports teams in a metropolitan area provide these gadgets free of charge to anyone who wants one?

Re:How to finance these

[dextremethorpheus]

or i suppose they could provide a handy calendar of their scheduled games. hmmm, perhaps they already do.

Re:How to finance these

[serutan]

You obviously missed the point. If they have to screw up major public resources to do their business, they ought to do more for innocent bystanders than simply notify them when it's going to happen.

If you stood out on the freeway and caused a spectacle of some sort that snarled up traffic, you would get arrested for disturbing the peace. But a baseball team gets to do the same thing on a regular basis, no problem.

Seen in Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex

[chendo]

In one episode of Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, a device very similar to the one linked was shown, except much more detailed. However, the major was able to hack into it and make it show an accident on a bridge, forcing the bad guy to take an alternate route, easily apprehending him.

Could this be used in real life, I wonder?

Re:Seen in Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex

[Clockwork000]

Same things as in The Italian Job. "Napster" hacks the traffic light system forcing some trucks to go a certain way.

Re:Seen in Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex

[chendo]

Well, the major only hacked into the guy's navigation system, and didn't force him to do anything, but it showed a large jam up ahead, so he got off the highway.

While hacking the traffic light system would affect more than the intended player, hacking their nav system would be less intrusive to the rest of the traffic.

Mostly Worthless?

[sublimusasterisk]

..."mostly worthless GPS navigation and DVD units..."


Mostly worthless? Am I the only one whose hide has been saved by "worthless GPS navigation and DVD units"?

OK, OK, maybe the software is klunky sometimes ("continue to merge left for 1.5 miles") and the CG voice is annoying, but when you're lost and/or late I wouldn't describe the GPS/Nav system as worthless by a long shot.

Re:Mostly Worthless?

[johnlcallaway]

Oh yeah...

I didn't spring for the auto-route models, just one with a basic map. But the Phoenix metro-area is on it and it has saved my hide, literally.

Imagine, if you will, driving 2700 miles to a new land. Upon arriving, you take all of your belongings inside, and then proceed to return the UHaul. But you take a wrong turn, into the Twilight zone (it got dark). No landmarks, everything is flat, and I don't know squat about the area. Granted, having a city map probably would have been a GOOD IDEA. But I whipped it out (my GPS that is) and got home without any problems.

My vote is definitely GPS. But, there shouldn't be any reason why Magellin or Garmin couldn't provide some type of adapter to receive the transmissions.

Unless...OH MY GOD!!!! It's not OPEN SOURCE!! WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!!

Or not.....

Re:Mostly Worthless?

[Motherfucking Shit]

Am I the only one whose hide has been saved by "worthless GPS navigation and DVD units"?

Well, I can't say as I've ever used an in-car GPS, but I'm interested in your method of saving your hide with the DVD unit. How does it work, exactly; do you just pop in The Matrix and consult the oracle?

Re:Mostly Worthless?

[lcorc79]

... Mostly worthless? Am I the only one whose hide has been saved by "worthless GPS navigation and DVD units"?

Nope, you certainly aren't the only one. Billy Graham sent me a DVD in the mail, I popped it in my "worthless" DVD unit; and halleluja, I was SAVED! Praise the lord, I've been SAVED!!!! :)

Re:Mostly Worthless?

[sublimusasterisk]

Maybe I misinterpreted the original post, but I assumed he was referring to DVD-augmented navigation systems (a la this Panasonic unit) that store the map data on DVD and download your coordinates from the GPS for overlay/interface purposes.

Re:Mostly Worthless?

[Technician]

I think the author doesn't have one of the in dash units. Mine auto-routes. It gives voice directions. It works even with the display turned off. I use the local talk radio for road reports. If I need to ditch the freeway, I just take any exit. The auto re-route works fully hands off. It re-does the route on the fly and contiues giving directions to an alternate route.

The unit I have is the factory Nav-Tech unit in the Toyota Prius. My only problem is my wife keeps swiping my car if she needs to go somewhere she hasn't been before. No need to deal with online maps. Punch in the address and go. Yahoo maps aren't much good if you need to re-route in traffic. It beats trying to read a map or Yahoo turn by turn directions while driving. I much prefer the voice "In two miles exit 62 is on the left." prompt.

Mostly useless is only defined by a commuter who never needs another route other than the few that are already pre'learned. The in dash GPS unit is perfect for realitors and others that need to go to many unknown locations. It quickly un-tangles many housing tracts that were nothing but a maze. Now they are an alternate route if needed. That's when you need the eyes on the road, not a map or GPS. By the way the Prius gets about 55 MPG in typical city driving.

I'm going to have to sping for a Street Pilot unit for my wife so I can keep my car. I hate driving the van.

Re:Mostly Worthless?

[CurlyG]

Well no. In car nav systems are mostly useless as defined by anyone who can read streetsigns and a normal, cheap, ubiquitous, paper map.

Re:Mostly Worthless?

[Anonymous Coward]

The nav system in my 2003 Honda Accord is GREAT--the single best electronic device I've ever purchased (even exceeding my TiVo ). Granted, I'm "navigationally challenged" and need the crutch even when driving in familiar areas, but this system has made an enormous difference in my life, and it shouldn't be called "mostly worthless."

Re:Mostly Worthless?

[Keeper]

My experience with a GPS unit was rather crappy.

It told me to go the wrong way down one way streets. It instructed me to turn left onto a road that I was crossing UNDER. It told you to exit the highway after access to the exit ramp went away.

I was not impressed.

Re:Mostly Worthless?

[ltkije]

This falls under the rubric of "telematics." There are good reasons why we get odd little devices in the United States while Europe is headed straight toward nav/traffic/routing convergence.

Boiled down to the two most important points: the business model in the States is subscription-based - OnStar is the grandaddy, and it's not making money. Second, Europe has public broadcasts of traffic information to a continental standard, while in the good ol' USA, proprietary protocols rule and the FCC is spineless.

So until USDOT and its state counterparts get the gumption to propose a public alternative to the private General Motors model, expect slow progress.

From their 'About' page...

[InterruptDescriptorT]

Will I hit traffic on this route? Should I go a different way?

If you're trying to access their IIS-run website, then I'd say that's a big 10-4, good buddy.

Re:From their 'About' page...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you mean "401"!

Not a convicing demo

[ibbieta]

They claim that the Seattle area has unpredictable traffic and to prove it they have this series of examples all taken at 8:15am.

Now, I don't live anywhere near Seattle but every day the traffic looks the same to me. A bunch of heavy traffic in the same places every day. This is supposed to convice me? All this product demostration did was convice me to not move to the suburbs of Seattle anytime soon and if I already had, to try some different routes.

It also just displays four highways with just the promise of "compelling upgrades" in the future should new roads be added to the system. I'm sure the "compelling upgrades" will be much teh same as some software companies who charge for the upgrade and drop support for the old product. Compelling like a court order. :)

--ibbieta

Re:Not a convicing demo

[Anonymous Coward]

having lived in seattle for 4 years I can say that the reverse commute traffic really is very erratic. Not that it doesn't always suck - but there is suck, and there is _really_ suck. I could leave seattle for BV at 8am one morning and sit in traffic, to just cruise most of the way to work at a good 30 mph the next morning. The traffic maps on the web sites are super damn useful.

Re:Not a convicing demo

[Microbomb]

You are correct ibbieta. I don't even know why they bother with taffic every 10 minutes anymore. It sucks, it sucked 10 minutes ago and it will suck 10 miniutes from now. I live in the Seattle area and drive from Kent to Redmond each day on the I-405. Traffic is stop and go everyday on in the morning and at night. It is predictable about 99% of the time.

Re:Not a convicing demo

[doinky]

This company is run by a genius, though, since every suburbanite in the world thinks that just a few tweaks to the roadway network that are being held back by the evil DOT can solve their commute.

Re:Not a convicing demo

[duggy_92127]

Now, I don't live anywhere near Seattle but every day the traffic looks the same to me. A bunch of heavy traffic in the same places every day.

Now, I don't live anywhere near Seattle either, but please allow me to tell you a small story

I recently lived in southern California, and daily traffic was pretty much as you describe it. In fact, it's so regular that if you know where you're going to work, you can pick where to live in order to minimize total daily traffic.

Even more recently, I moved to northeastern Illinois. I don't know how much you know about the midwest, but there are two season here: winter, and road construction. In addition, right around now, we seem to have a lot of storms, which seem to knock out power with disturbing regularity.

Now, I live fifteen miles away from where I work, and there are no fewer than five distinct routes from my house to my work. One route traditionally has less traffic, and gets me there fastest, so I take that by default.

However, just yesterday, one traffic light was unpowered and replaced by a stop sign. It took me an extra hour to get to work, due to the five miles of backed up traffic behind that intersection. Had I known about that beforehand, I could have taken a different route. As it was, I was already committed, and short of going all the way back home and taking a different route, I just had to sit through it.

My point being: in some areas of the country, there are MANY factors involved in traffic patterns. Is the 41 closed to one lane for inane construction? I'll take the 21, thanks. The 21 and the 60 both backed up because of construction at their intersection? I'll head over to the 45 and come in from the other side. This information would be priceless.

I'd spend $500 on a device like this one that showed the local roads in my area, in a heartbeat. Maybe more. And I'd be the most popular guy in my office near the end of every day.

Doug

Other alternatives

[goldfndr]

There are other methods usable.

Indeed, you could use WSDOT's own WebFlow application, although it hasn't been updated in a long time. Sadly, they have a location already set up for new maps that's going unused.

Re:Other alternatives

[hawkfish]

..and these pages can be accessed from your web phone. Which sort of asks the question: Why bother?

In other news...

[indros13]

...TrafficGaugeWeb, used to measure internet traffic, imploded today at approximately 11:21pm Slashdot time, while taking its evening reading of the TrafficGauge homepage. Mary Merger, TrafficGauge spokeswoman, said that the site, usually receiving less than 100 hits daily, was struck by a vertiable avalanche of requests. "Fortunately no one was standing near the [TrafficGaugeWeb] at the time," Merger said, "the needle not only slammed to maximum, but the pressure blew the cover off the device, richocheted off my classic '52 Yield sign and nearly took the head off Jim ["Ramp" Meter, TrafficGauge field tester]. I guess word must be getting around about the new product...maybe there was a big car convention or something where they had free internet access." Authorities in the Seattle area could not be reached for comment.

Additional Information

[Scoria]

Tele-Aid, a service provided by Mercedes-Benz that exhibits characteristics similar to GM's OnStar, transmits real-time data pertinent to approximately 65 metropolitan areas within the continental United States. As mentioned previously, radio stations are also capable of broadcasting the information.

Portable device? What about a traffic alarm...

[stigg]

...clock? I want an alarm clock that's programmed w/ the amount of lead time I need in the morning and where I'm going. It should check weather and traffic status real-time, and adjust my wake-up time on the fly so I get the maximum amount of sleep possible.

I have one and love it

[Anonymous Coward]

I have one of these units thanks to an inside deal. I regularly use it to decide my route to work, and it has definitely saved me from sitting in traffic on many occasions.
One thing to keep in mind is that Seattle is well suited for this device because of geography - there are no alternate routes. There are only the two east-west routes shown on the unit across Lake Washington. The north-south options aren't much better. You can't just swing over a couple of blocks to avoid a problem, so knowing that one of major routes is bad because of a wreck can make a huge difference.
Traffic reports on the radio can help, but they always come on 30 seconds after you pass the decision point for which route to take. This solves that problem by keeping the last report handy for you at any time.
The unit isn't perfect -
(1) has a fixed configuration so it wouldn't be able to accomodate any new routes, but that isn't really likely to happen around here anyways. More lanes maybe, but no new routes.
(2) It relies on the DOT data, which is occasionally of questionable accuracy.
On the plus side -
(1) it runs on the pager network so coverage is not a problem, neither are limits on data transfer or message counts over a cell network.
(2) the price is reasonable enough that is easy to recover the monthly fee in time and frustration saved.

Overall - don't even think of trying to take mine away!

Re:I have one and love it

[RiffRafff]

Okay, so once everyone has one of these devices, what happens then? Say it tells you the north road is the best choice; now everyone with one of these things heads to that road. Seems to me that, when these become commonplace, your best bet would be to do the OPPOSITE of what it tells you.

Re:I have one and love it

[Anonymous Coward]

There was once a project at the UW Comp. Sci department to use the telemetry from the King County (Seattle for you folks outside of WA) Metro bus system to plan alternate routes.

The idea being that the old bus system had a very good, albeit arcane method of telling where each route was. When a bus would pass a certian intersection, it's telemetry counter would reset to zero, after that, it could radio in, "I'm 100 wheel revolutions from point X", "I'm 6500 wheel revolutions from point Z", and so on.

They were attempting to tie this into route mapping to pick the fastest current route. Most of the bus system in Seattle runs on-grade, so it's a decent method of measuring traffic on a real-time basis...

Looks like the DOT cut a sweet deal first...

Now if only those fuckers would let me get my high-altitude rocket motors...

-AW

you can get that info already

[73939133]

Just tune into traffic info radio or pick up your cell phone and call one of the many free traffic info services. Or, have the information sent to your cell phone. But most people realize pretty quickly that that kind of knowledge is pretty useless: even if 101 or 405 are stop-and-go, taking alternate routes probably still takes longer than just living with it.

The only thing you can do is to stay a little longer at the office until traffic has died down. And to see when that has happened, you don't need a wireless gadget, you just point your desktop web browser at a traffic site.

Limited usefulness, neat idea

[sharlskdy]

It wouldn't work if this was mounted in the dash, unless you were never selling your car to anyone outside the Puget Sound area.

There are no maps beyond what you see in the display. The world on this device ends at Renton and at Lynwood.

I can see this kind of thing customized and used by regional transit authorities in order to reduce the amount of roads that need to be built.

This is a very vertical device at this point of time, but an excellent proof-of-concept. Convergence... we MUST have convergence - digital maps, DOT information standardized, information all transmitted over UWB in each region, all standards-driven so that there can be a variety of devices, always updated and up-to-date in a given region. That new road that was just built... just got downloaded to your DOT-device when the engineers checked in with city hall, marking the roadway extension as complete.

At least it settles the eternal question of whether you should have taken another route home, or if all "rush" hour traffic is at a standstill.

Hardware-Based Commute-Map Gadget

[Ilan Volow]

I can't wait till it has speech recognition. I'd love to say "Go Go Gadget Commute-map!" in heavy traffic.

TCP/IP

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone remember the slashdot article about internet traffic beeing too greedy? Well, I kind of do, and this sounds an awful lot like it.

Let's say that everybody has instant access to congestion information, which means that a lot of people will take the least trafficated route. Do you see what I'm aiming at? That road will become congested faster than an IIS-server getting slashdotted. You need randomness. Pretty much all routes are congested at rush hour as it is, imagine if people start concentrating on the least congested route at one certain point in time...food for thought..

Same Traffic Map on T-Mobile Sidekick

[Anonymous Coward]

For those with T-Mobile Sidekicks, you can access the same traffic map in sidekick-friendly format (optimized for grayscale):

http://www.up.org/cgi-bin/traffic.cgi

Check out Magellan's Neverlost II GPS at Hertz

[soren100]

I wouldn't say that GPS units are worthless -- I just drove a system equipped with one a couple of weeks back and it was basically a wet dream.

The input system was kinda clumsy, maneuvering a cursor around an alphabet to choose letters and numbers, but besides that I was in love with it. My parents were visiting San Francisco, and I live 30 min away in Belmont, so I had to take them around town and I am not too familiar with the city yet -- this thing made it a breeze.

Basically it is Mapquest in your car. You input a destination and it tells you how to get there in the quickest way possible, then shows you on the map wherever you are at any point in the trip.

When a turn is coming up, a pleasant female voice lets you know and then tones tell you exactly when to turn. If you get too far off the route that it planned for you earlier, it will plan a new route for you.

This thing could have saved me sooooo much time in my life and it was really helpful. When I didn't need the voice I just turned it down and could check the display every now and then to prove that I was on the right course.

If I had 2 grand to drop on it I would buy one tomorrow. If you're at all interested in GPS units for cars you can check it out at Hertz for a few more dollars a day.

A cheaper solution is to hook up a handheld unit to a laptop. I know somebody who did that and got great results, a lot cheaper than 2 gs.

More info on the web: http://www.autonav2000.com/Products/750NavPlus.htm

my 2 cents worth

Re:Check out Magellan's Neverlost II GPS at Hertz

[dereklam]

If I had 2 grand to drop on it I would buy one tomorrow. If you're at all interested in GPS units for cars you can check it out at Hertz for a few more dollars a day.

Or, you could drop $750 instead of 2 grand for the Garmin StreetPilot III...

Too limited

[ap0]

For those that live in the Seattle area, you'll notice that it just covers the Lake Union area, and just the freeways. This is great to check your freeway commute, but if you stray from the greater Seattle area or go on any side street or state route, it's useless. The WSDOT doesn't have the traffic monitoring systems set up anywhere else in the state. This isn't a navigation tool - it's a traffic monitor for the freeways. Useless, since you can get the same information every couple minutes on the radio.

Re:Too limited

[Schmucky The Cat]

WSDOT does so have traffic monitoring elsewhere in the state. They have them in Tacoma, Spokane and Vancouver as well. Seattle also has a few of it's own on city streets.

Every geek I know has something else rigged up. PDA or laptop or whatever. This is something for the non-technical.

tech specs?

[robhranac]

Any releasable tech spechs for California DOT's backend web interface? I would be curious to see them. How are you thinking of tying in weather? Just curious...

Re:tech specs?

[Mints]

It's still in development stages, and we haven't settled on any single hardware configuration. I'm sorry if that is what you are looking for. Internally, it's now residing on a few stock x86 servers.

On the software end, all the components are written in perl and C. Running on Linux. Debian and Redhat currently, but it may change, as the state is now toying with Linux standardization. The database elements are PostgreSQL.

If you were curious about the details of the remote traffic and weather monitoring stations, there are many holes in my knowledge (I work for a contractor, and am a student). If you curious about that part of the system, please reply and I can give you a more complete answer in the, US Pacific Time, morning.

Concerning weather data, currently we use our stations to predict fog forming conditions and, once visibility starts to drop, provide warning to motorists on changeable message signs.

I could see visibility information being a useful overlay to any realtime traffic information, providing warning signs of potential slowdowns.

Hope that helped.

Re:tech specs?

[robhranac]

Thanks - very interesting reply. I am interested because I am a transportation consultant in Oakland, with a focus on ITS and open standards. Cool that California DOT is using open source! We have done work for them in the past where they have been less enthusiastic.

If you were curious about the details of the remote traffic and weather monitoring stations
I know a little about this, I was more curious about any sort of web services exposure. For example, will you expose traffic information using something like SOAP or (even better) using something from the OpenGIS Consoritum? Not a big deal, just wondering what kind of cool services I can build on top for my clients. Thanks for the reply, btw.

Did this years ago...

[Anonymous Coward]

Back when we had Ricochet (sigh) in the Seattle area. I could have my laptop on the passenger seat showing the WSDOT traffic maps, and get real-time updates as I went up the freeway. Since the average rush-hour speed of I-405 out of Bellevue was about 5 MPH, it wasn't much of a traffic hazard. Ricochet had enough bandwidth for this much data, and even worked up to 45-50 MPH (like I ever hit *that* during commute time...)

I want to head your Dept. of Transportation!

[morcheeba]

I love your moto rule. I say motorcyclists don't have to obey any laws as long as they don't wear a helmet. Also, anyone with one or more points on their license will have their airbag replaced with a giant spike. And, kids don't have to be restrained in child safety seats as long as they are securely attached to the bumper.

Hacker message

[Dr Cool]

In the directory you referenced (http://images.wsdot.wa.gov/nwflow/wireless/Webflo wUpdates/), click on Readme.txt for a message to hackers. : )

Re:Hacker message

[goldfndr]

Yes, that's exactly why I said that there was a location for updates that WSDOT was neglecting.

Interestingly, there's a flat-out lie in the README.TXT - the Tacoma BMP and MAP are from an as-yet unreleased 3.x or 4.x version.

It wouldn't take much effort at all to "throw a bone" to the "hackers", but... :(

Navigation Koans

[xixax]

One day Scott got into his car and drove to work and arrived at the Interstate. Only then did he realise that you cannot travel without changing yourself and the universe.

A trouble Cathy sat in the gridlock and implored her in-car navigation, "Why am I stuck?". The GPS replied, "You are here", and she was enlightened.

Destination is illusion if you do not know from where you start and where change in your journey.

A single GPS point coordinate is as protected as the robin that nests in an inpenetrable briar patch.

Even the road travels the bridges.

Re:Navigation Koans

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF?

Re:Navigation Koans

[Surak]

Old-timer humour. You yunguns ain't been around long enough to get that. :) See Appendix A of the Jargon File for a reference.

Re:Navigation Koans

[djw]

Shouldn't those be called traffic koans?

Had one for years

[threaded]

I've had a system like this built in in my last 4 or 5 or is it 6 cars.

http://www.trafficmaster.co.uk/

Puts little road sign pictures up explaining what the delay is caused by, i.e. "Men at work" picture for roadworks, and how long the delay is expected. The Navigation unit takes this information and routes around the delay if necessary.

I even posted a story like this the last time such a system was mention on /. {:-)

And I forgot to mention...

[threaded]

... it works over the whole of Europe too.

Re:And I forgot to mention...

[Jussi K. Kojootti]

... it works over the whole of Europe too.

I found that hard to believe (knowing the enormous differences European countries' road and traffic data systems have), and tried searching the website. The only thing they say about Europe is this:

Trafficmaster has a number of interests in Europe, including a network of fixed sensors in Germany and shares in Mediamobile, the leading French traffic flow data company. In Italy, Trafficmaster has a joint venture with Targa, part of the Fiat group, to operate a floating car data network.

So Germany maybe, whole of Europe probably not. If you have some other information, please share.

Traffic Data

[Mutiny Evolution]

Does anybody know any sources on the internet to just get raw traffic data for any other places in the USA, most helpfully Massachusetts (Boston Metro?)

What about accidents slowing traffic?

[Chad E Dirks]

"Now, I don't live anywhere near Seattle but every day the traffic looks the same to me. A bunch of heavy traffic in the same places every day."

I suspect, however, that accidents will not be so predictable. Accidents can cause major delays, even when the vehicles involved end up in the median and legitimately should not be slowing traffic down; too many people seem to slow down to have a look.

Sure, major accidents might not happen every day, but it only takes being late to a meeting or appointment once to cause you major headaches.

You might not otherwise know if you don't listen to the radio while you drive, or would prefer not to have to listen to the radio while you drive, but instead play a CD.

How Info services in Mercedes REALLY works.

[EDA Wizard]

I have Tele-Aid in my G500, and it is crap. This is part of the MB Command 2.0 system that is shipping in 2002/2003 C and G class. The S class has a slightly different system.

The Info-Services part of teleaid is what most people think sounds cool.

Here is how it works so that you can judge for yourself.

1. You pay MBUSA $225 a year.

2. You login to your custom website and configure the info-services you would like. I have NHL scores, Bay Area weather, four stock quotes, and national news headlines. You get about five choices and then the website says that is all the data you can store. (I could get traffic for my commute, but I don't).

3. You press the "SVC" button on your "Command" unit (The radio head with 4.5" lcd screen).

4. You WAIT 1 or 2 minutes.

5. The unit eventually beeps, and you are then warned that reading info service underway is dangerious so you do a couple of knob turns and button presses and get to get to the data.

6. You now have about 1K of text to scroll through. Most national news stories are about 300 bytes long. Weather and Hockey are around 50 bytes each.

7. You have now learned nothing that isn't already on the radio.

The last part is the best part!!!

8. You are charged $0.40 cents a minute for the time it took for the Command system to call and get that 1K of data over a built-in cell phone and what must be a 300bps modem!!! Each call typically costs $0.80 and often calls fail without giving you any data, but they are $0.40 per minute so you get charged anyway.

It is just worthless and I won't pay for another year of it.

Re:How Info services in Mercedes REALLY works.

[Anonymous Coward]

>>I won't pay for another year of it.

That's good because the money you save can be used to fill the giant fuel tank of your Nazi Hummer wannabe.

ALL aluminum, hello...

[SuperBanana]

Did you know the Audi A8 has an all-aluminum body?

You mean like the Ford/AC Cobra, back in 1965? Or the Land Rover? ...ho hum....

The Ford/AC Cobra had a steel chassis- ONLY aluminum body panels. If you're referring to the brand new Range Rover, to quote RR themselves: "The hood, doors, and front fenders are all made from aluminum." Same thing. Steel chassis, aluminum panels. It's nothing new, and very commonly used up front when the beast is nose-heavy.

The entire chassis of an A8(including the new one) is made from aluminum, top to bottom. They worked with ALCOA(huge aluminum company) in the late 80's/very early 90's to make it happen; it's not exactly run of the mill stuff to make such a complex structure out of aluminum; it's very different from steel in countless ways. They invented dozens of manufacturing technologies, demonstrated first on the AVUS Quattro, a concept car- a couple of years later, they put it into use on the production line with the A8. Part of the achievement is that it has chassis dynamics that are superior to a similarly sized steel chassis car.

As pretty good proof of the technological advancement(keep in mind there were a few all-aluminum cars 50+ years ago, but chassis technology, requirements, and safety requirements aren't even close to what they are today), it's taken around 8 years for another company to do the same- mainly, Jaguar(the new XJ is aluminum).

Sorry bud. Don't pick an argument on technicalities with an Audi enthusiast :-)

Re:ALL aluminum, hello...

[cujo_1111]

He did say Land Rover, not Range Rover. Different vehicle.

don't sorry bud me :)

[djupedal]

He said 'body'. Not 'chassis'... He said 'innovator'...not 'technologically advanced'.

Coming in late to the party and qualifying what was clearly a shot from the hip doesn't change the fact that he deserved to be corrected...which you've helped to accomplish, thereby underscoring my original point, thanks :)

Mixed review, no sale

[UnknowingFool]

On the one hand, it's a cool new gadget so men will buy it. On the other, it's like asking for directions so no man will buy it. It's kinda of a wash if you ask me.

Mostly worthless ? Hmmmmm

[forged]

Well this has a fixed display of the area around Seattle. If you happen to live elsewhere, then a GPS is what you should look into for any sort of interactive navigation.

802.11b solution

[HaveBlue34]

how about an 802.11b solution mixed with gps? send your current speed and location to other drivers. with enough of them the data would propagate through the network and even to the internet with strategicaly located access points. make the data available over the internet so your nifty navigation system can plot the fastest route based on distance and traffic. have it keep a log and you could predict the fastest route through a particular location in advance.

Re:802.11b solution

[sonamchauhan]

I have been thinking of building something similar for a few months.
GPS not only gives you your position, but also synchronized atomic time. Hence a dense-enough network of cars with these units could accurately "map" the city's road in realtime. Data in a large Ad-Hoc network could "jump lanes" to the cars that require it - ahead, behind, even to the opposing lanes of traffic (which are more likely to carry routing information regarding your intended destination).
Besides trip routing information, a lot of other information can be derived from having many such units: for example, which parking lots have space available (based on parking lot "circling" behavior before being parked), popular gas stations, restaurants, etc.

Re:802.11b solution

[HaveBlue34]

not to mention a big button that you can hit that marks exactly where a speed trap is. this would be rediculously easy with a laptop, a wireless card, apache and zero conf/rendevous for autodiscovery. you could serve the data as html because its so darn small. i like the idea of having it upload to webserver connected to the net when you drive by a hotspot. best part is you can use all opensouce software and off the shelf components.

Would be nice for Chicago, too...

[cpw]

There's a great service for the Chicago area at:

http://www.gcmtravel.org/

Very handy for a metro area with as many expressways as the Milwaukee-Chicago-Gary area.

Traffic Master

[rf0]

Something simialr has been working in the UK for a while. Have a look at www.trafficmaster.co.uk

Rus

Re:Traffic Master

[AnnaBlack]

And those of us who have a Sony-Ericsson P800 can get TrafficMaster data shown on a nice lil' zoomable scrollable map of the UK (with all motorways and major routes shown). The app is available from Traffic-i. As someone who often has to drive long distances during peak times this has frequently saved me hours spent sitting in traffic.

Erm..

[akpcep]

Why on earth would I need a 404 error page on the dash of my car?

A good tech idea I should patent

[aepervius]

Since now there is so much on board distraction (phone cell, video, dvd, gps mapper, and now this gizmo), I propose to patent the following : put a camera at the front of the vehicule and then put the output on a monitor which will be put in tzhe middle of all gizmo, so that the driver can STILL pay attention to where he is going... Hummm.... Wait a minute...

Driving in Boston

[Anonymous Coward]

Boston is often ranked as the worst city in the U.S. in which to drive, and Seattle generally comes second. I'm not surprised you can't find an extra route. Driving in Seattle is Hell on Earth, by the way. If you live there and you're thinking "it's not so bad," it's only because on Earth we aren't supernaturally barred from becoming accustomed to torment.

I don't know what sort of information system you have in Boston, but the Seattle traffic system is very detailed. It's not just a "block here on route 99" thing. The speed of traffic on each block of major roadway is displayed in color-coded form. If every single driver had this information all the time, we'd see a considerable evening out of people across alternate routes. Even if 5% of people choose the less crowded route instead of the busy one day after day or choose not to go out when traffic isn't moving at all, the increase in traffic efficiency and reduction in pollution would be equivalent to building a significant amount of extra roadway. Since extra roadway is not only expensive, but often needed land isn't available, total awareness of traffic patterns is well worth pursuing.

3G phone

[Anonymous Coward]

I just check this same map on my 3G Sprint phone. No problem, full color, no extra charge.

HA! you think the sound is bad?

[abolith]

Try living in L.A. it is a hell of alot worse down here. Hell we don't have freeways or highways we have 60 mile long parking lots.

VICS system

[Anonymous Coward]

In Japan they have the VICS (doesn't sound good in German) system, which works, but the problem is dumb software to calculate alternatives. I recently bought a Honda Odyssey with a hard disk Carrozzeria (Pioneer) GPS which cost me 200,000 yen (about $1,700). It's not bad, but I find my Japanese wife more effective as a GPS.

Here is the VICS page:

http://www.vics.or.jp/eng/index.html

Right on

[[cx]]

Now I wont get lost in my own city, what a relief.

Amusing place on the picture.

[gid13]

Check out the picture of the device on the first link. It has REDMOND on it!!! Conspiracy? Well, this IS Slashdot.

One of my great ideas

[goldcd]

which will naturally never get off my arse to implement, was to create a GSM/GPS hybrid unit. It would function entirely like a standard GPS unit, except it could report back it's location and speed to a central server. The server could then distribute this information to other users of the system.
e.g. If the speed of 10 users on a motorway suddenly dropped you could assume that there was a traffic jam. The unit could then calculate whether the journey of other motorists, whose route was along this motorway would be faster by keeping them on it, or routing them on lesser roads/longer alternative routes.
The more people that used the system, the more effective it would become, the more people would use it etc.
The actual technology would be relatively easy to implement with data being transfered by either GSM or encoded SMS - I'm sure you could find an operator willing to provide this service at very low cost.
A simpler system could be created very cheaply with java code running on today's handsets and positioning based upon relative BTS signal strengths.
We don't need more roads, we just need to stop people piling down the same ones at the same time.

Re:One of my great ideas

[Kainaw]

That is a common idea being tackled by many research facilities. It is not really for the purpose that you note. It is for the time when we finally take the steering wheels away from the dumb humans and let computers do the driving. They will be able to quickly report their position and speed to a central server (the local DMV) and get updates on where to go. It will drastically reduce travel time since the central computer will continally strive to keep traffic moving around any accidents that may occur (caused by the human drivers, of course).

Why exclude electrics?

[Vitus Wagner]

I don't know how it is in US, but here in Russia
I got very annoyed with people whose lights are
malfunctioning.

Let them study electrics to to keep their cars
in proper order.

Re:Why exclude electrics?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know how it is in US, but here in Russia
I got very annoyed with people whose lights are
malfunctioning.

Let them study electrics to to keep their cars
in proper order.

IN SOVIET RUSSIA, cars keep YOU in proper order! Oh wait, nevermind...

Been around in Japan for a LONG time

[InakaBoyJoe]

This is news?!? Japanese "car-navi" systems have had traffic analysis features for at least the year I've been here. At first I couldn't understand why they were so popular, but then someone explained why, in this country where street addresses are rare, best route analysis is a real plus to drivers. As the site is slashdotted I can't tell if the company is trying to sell this as a new thing, but it would be a shame if so. Oh yeah right, and "the Japanese are only good at copying American ideas."

Re:Been around in Japan for a LONG time

[Anonymous Coward]

They call it VICS.

http://www.vics.or.jp/eng/index.html

It works and it's been around for a long time. But the car navigation software in general sucks. I have a last generation hard-disk based Pioneer in my car, and sometime its decisions baffle me.

Japanese and US ideas

[pommiekiwifruit]

Legal case using fingerprint evidence:

• Tokyo - 1879
• US - 1911

And this depite the fact that Japan has a low per capita amount of lawyers and criminals, and the US a very high rate.

TMC

[colin1256]

In sevreal european countries including Germany, The Netherlands and I believe also Austria, newer GPS-Travelpilot systems (2yrs+) are compatible with a system called TMC.
It is based on, regional radio stations broadcasting a stream of digital data along with their regular audio programme. You don't hear it (just like you don't lear the RDS station identifier code) and you don't need to subscribe to anything either.

The travelpilot is interfaced with your car stereo and reads the TMC sigal out of the incoming radio broadcasts, even if you are currently tuned to a different station or listening to CD/Tape/MP3/MD or have your radio turned off. This data is then interpreted by the travelpilot to guide you around closed roads or congested areas without you having to actively do anything. However most systems will inform you that there is a traffic jam ahead and that it is guiding you around it.

It also works when the travelpilot is in Map-mode (no guidance, just display a map of where you are). My Blaupunkt TravelPilot shows me a map of the area I'm driving in. If it sees a gongested area near me it will highlight it on the map so I can avoid it by myself.

The only downside is that presently, radio-stations don't always do a perfect job at keeping their data up-to-date...

Re:TMC (Might want to add this)

[colin1256]

For more information about the system and its possibilities that I only outlined in my post, feel free to go here: http://www.tmcforum.com/

Have fun! :)

Trafficmaster...

[perly-king-69]

We've had a similar system in the uk for about 10 years now. It's called trafficmaster and covers the national trunk road network.

Or you could get a bike

[Moderation abuser]

And it wouldn't matter very much if the traffic's bad.

Of course this doesn't help in the US where motorcyclists are not allowed to filter[1] through traffic, which partially explains the very low numbers of motorcycles on the roads in the US.

[1] lane-split for our American readers.

Re:Or you could get a bike

[Grotus]

Allowed or not, motorcyclists always seem to be doing it, at least here in the Bay Area. Mostly just in heavy traffic and at stoplights. It always pisses me off, but that is probably just due to jealousy.

Re:Or you could get a bike

[StarKruzr]

The problem with doing this is that bikes can get crushed between cars. This never happens in the UK?

Re:Or you could get a bike

[3waygeek]

In California, bikes are allowed to do it, but only between the two inside lanes of a freeway -- one of the few tidbits I picked up in traffic school back when I lived in LA.

Re:User suggestions - XML

[Anonymous Coward]

How about providing the data as an XML feed in addition to plain browser content?

Related question to others: Is there already a standard schema for this type of data?

Use HAM radio - it's cheaper and more fun!

[Anonymous Coward]

- take a 35-question multiple choice test
- get your 10-year FCC license for free
- buy a $159 Yaesu FT-2800M 65W 2M mobile transceiver
- get in with a local-commute gang on a local repeater

- much cheaper, plus you have emergency comms in your car (or if you use a portable HT, anywhere)

Been Done

[Anonymous Coward]

A couple of guys from my school already did this last year:
http://www.premisedenied.com/CEflow/

Why a single-purpose device?

[babbage]

Is it worthwhile to have a single-purpose device like this? The Google-cached version of the product page indicates that it never needs to be turned off (so how fast does it go through batteries?) and that it is continually updated. I'm not sure that's enough to convince me it's a good idea. How much does it cost, for the device & for the subscription to the service? How often do you have to replace the batteries? What happens when it breaks -- would you even know until you're stuck in traffic when it claims things are moving great?

It seems like, aside from the continual updates thing, a nicer idea would be to have a PalmOS or WinCE version that would be updated either at sync time or, hardware allowing, continually via wi-fi, modem, or Bluetooth circuitry. Better still, if your PDA had GPS abilities, then getting current traffic info (and, why not, weather as well) for your current location would be even better. By going to a traditional PDA, you lose the real-time updates that the dedicated device seems to provide, but you also lose one more gadget to have to carry around (or, I suppose, just leave in your glovebox), and you also gain a good deal of flexibility.

I think the most interesting thing about this application is the excellent data representation of in the WA-DOT map. I'd like to see this traffic map style replace some of the other, clumsier traffic sites that I'm used to, with their breakdown of a region in arbitrary ways ("well, my route takes me from this section, across part of that one, and ends up at this third one..."), under-descriptive icons, pages of text ("wait, where the hell is Frontage Road? OH, the so-and-so landmark on interstate $foo..."), useless webcams that are greyed by smog and blocked by obstacles, and maps that don't attempt to tell you anything at all. Compare this to the WA-DOT's system, which tell you conditions between each exit, attempts to explain data holes ("no data" / "no equipment"), and even provides archives of maps at earlier times ("what the hell was going on last Thursday?"). Nice!

But I don't think I want a device dedicated to receiving that information.

Especially one targeted only at Seattle... :-)

Re:Why a single-purpose device?

[Anonymous Coward]

With a single purpose device, you'll just leave it in the car, rather than feeling you have to add it to your utility belt. Also, a single purpose device means they can develop some hardware cheaply, and sell hardware -- a business model with real costs that a VC can understand.

Re:Portable device? What about a traffic alarm...

[Anonymous Coward]

Traffic is too variable for something like that to work well consistently.

Why not just drive faster when you're late? :)

Nope. Re:Too limited

[redwoodtree]

Actually, you mean Lake Washington Area, lake Union is the smaller lake just north of downtown. It's not too limited at all, it's a device for the Seattle area and that means that there are 5 major arteries that are of concern. Those are: 1) I-5, 2) I-5 Express Lanes, 3) 520 Bridge, 4) I-90 Bridge and 405.

That way a person can make a proper decision on whether to take the express lanes or not. Whether to take 520 or 90 bridge and also whether it makes more sense to take side streets.

So, in that it's limited to "seattle" it's limited but for the Seattle area, it's all the info you'll need.

Re:Portable device? What about a traffic alarm...

[Anonymous Coward]

The Rise Clock does what you want.

It's a research project, not a commercial product yet.

Whereas...

[sean.peters]

... I live in the DC area, where traffic can always be summarized as "Bad" overall. Sean

Don't know what your talking about, onboard gps

[Anonymous Coward]

navigation is so far from worthless it isn't even funny.

Unless you live in the middle of nowhere or something. On my acura mdx, this thing reduces large citys (like la) into tamed, easily navigated friendly roads (as long as you keep the doors locked, windows up, and potential gang colors hidden).

Because...

[gr8_phk]

"Now why can't auto makers put this kind of thing in a dash instead of mostly worthless GPS navigation and DVD units?"

Because management gets confused when knobs from the west coast come over and tell us we need JAVA because a car is just a "browser on wheels" and other such crap. Then some other knob comes in with an OS that we'd have to pay for per unit... DVD players are essentially repackaged products, it's simple, but stupid.

Only in Seattle...

[jordanlev]

I used to live in Seattle. The OTHER reason that traffic is "so bad" there (besides the one mentioned by the poster -- crappy mass transit), is the there are only FOUR ROADS! Count -em, 4! What the hell good is a freakin' traffic meter gonna do me if there's no alternate routes to take? And believe me, if 520 is backed up, so is 90. If 5 is backed up, well you have to go WAY out of your way to get to 405.
How on earth those people up in Seattle think they're going to solve any traffic issues without good public transportation is beyond me. That's why I moved to Portland...

great idea, but one slight problem...

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty innovative, but think about it.. if everyone used one of these, it would never cease to be effective. For example, if a route became congested, everyone would head toward the less congested route, then that would become the new bottleneck. So we have this "Idiot in the Shower" (macro economics) problem, since there is latency in the system. What they really need is an intelligent device to route traffic. But this is stil cool, and a step in the right direction.

Web Traffic maps Re:"Worthless Navigation Systems"

[n1vux]

Ah, that TAMU map is nice, thanks for pointing that out. The SmartRoutes system covers Boston for audio cellphone, broadcast, and web dissemination of traffic info, but doesn't have realtime mapping, just click-through on a static map to text/iconic live data. Their Philadelphia and Florida operations are similar.

Yes, a dearth of pleasant obstacles and highways laid out by surveyors instead of geological and historical accident does make seeking alternate routes easier. It also means you can get more people living within the 30-mile circle if all of it's above water!

In Boston, whether you have alternate routes available or not depends on where you're coming from and going to ... and whether you know the "surface roads" well enough to zig-zag around blockages. A few decades back, a map of the roadnet connecting Rt.128 exits was sold as a detour map ... the folks living in those quiet commuter neighborhoods were horrified, and those of us who'd been exploiting the detours available only to locals and the map-literate were not entirely happy at sharing either.

- Bill

More Single Purpose Toys?

[klausner]

> "it beats any PDA or cell phone auto traffic map... [or} mostly worthless GPS navigation and DVD units."

Let me get this straight. You think a single purpose gadget that is limited to Seattle (or at best major metro areas) is better then a general purpose tool that can do the same thing? What's wrong with this picture? Have you even tried the Seattle traffic data on a PDA? Works, great, takes only seconds, and is kept current. See the link for the Palm software.
Furthermore, a GPS or DVD with built in comm links, or a fast PDA with them can even display the Seattle traffic camera views in real time! Try that with a single purpose toy!

Re: May your regime never rise then....

[King_TJ]

In my experience, motorcycle drivers are often some of the more dangerous folks on the road. Just because they have a smaller vehicle, they believe it gives them "carte blanche" to weave in and out of traffic, driving between two lanes - and assuming everyone can see them just fine the whole time.

I'm not advocating people trying to read text-based messages while driving either. That's just idiocy, IMHO. Any GPS system for vehicles worth its salt should be voice operated and give voice feedback. Any graphical display should be set up so only a passenger can view it (so they can act as co-pilot if they wish, when they're in the car with the driver).

Because voice recognition is still relatively "iffy" - this technology isn't quite ready for prime time yet. That's why you see the lame attempts at scrolling text data, etc.

Mapopolis ClearRoute

[Anonymous Coward]

Take a look at Mapopolis ClearRoute:

www.mapopolis.com

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amateur Radio?

[orn]

Hey,

Does anyone know if this stuff can already be done with amateur radio? Could I build a radio transmitter and receiver, put up a big antenna or use a repeater, to transmit this information to myself in the car?

If not, why not?

Rudy

Houston has had a similar traffic website

[Shadowspawn]

Houston has had a similar traffic website for years: TAMU

Re:ALL aluminum, hello hello...

[branchingfactor]

The 1991 Acura/Honda NSX has an all-aluminum unit body, three years before the A8. Most of the other parts (engine, suspension, wheels) in the NSX are also aluminum. It wasn't until 1994 that the Audi A8 was introduced with its aluminum space frame chasis (developed jointly with Alcoa). The 1995 Lotus Elise followed shortly thereafter with an even more advanced superlight epoxy-bonded aluminum extrusion chasis developed jointly with Hydro Aluminium of Denmark.

Today a lot of cars make extensive use of aluminum --- follow this link for some examples in the US domestic market.

Never

[Moderation abuser]

The accidents which happen while filtering are as follows:

Car jumps lanes across the path of motorcyclist to get into a gap in the other (faster moving) lane.

Car performs U turn across path of motorcyclist after getting impatient waiting in line.

Car pulls out of sideroad across stationary trafic and across the path of the motorcyclist to reach lane travelling in opposite direction.

Car turns across the path of motorcyclist to enter side road in opposite lane.

Re:YOU FAIL IT!!!!!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that enything like a rubber goatse?

Heads-Up Display

[ml10422]

> Now why can't auto makers put this kind of thing in a
> dash instead of mostly worthless GPS navigation and
> DVD units?"

Forget the dash. Why can't they make a GPS with a heads-up display!