India Chooses All-Electronic Voting

MaximusTheGreat writes "While the U.S. debates the merits of e-voting, India has decided to have all electronic polls in the next elections for its billion strong population. Though India has used e-voting partially in previous elections, it will be the first time a Lok Sabha (central parliament) election will be held in the country since 1952 without the use of ballot papers. Election Commission plans to use about 800,000 electronic voting machines. Also, taking note from India's experience, other commonwealth countries like Malaysia and Britain will be sending representatives to India to see the use of EVMs during the Assembly elections. On a related note they plan to make voter's identity card mandatory for voting."

Comments

How they used to do it in the old days

[Heartz]

In the "old days", indians who voted would have their fingers marked with a special dye that would take 2 weeks to disappear. :)

Therefore there was no need for any ID Cards. Sigh, practical technology being replaced with technology that infringes on freedoms.

Re:How they used to do it in the old days

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes - the marks would last for upto two weeks on honest fingers but crooked politicians and their crafty supporters had developed numerous ways to erase them quickly so they could go back and vote again and again.

Sometimes something as simple as rubbing a peeled potato skin on the fingernail would be enough to erase the mark. I never had the opportunity (or the motivation) to try this but I have this from "reliable sources.."!!

These identity cards will certainly reduce instances of fraudulent voting - and as for privacy concerns - in a country like India with all those other concerns - the cost-benefit just doesn't work out in favour of privacy (and I am talking of the cost-benefit for the man on the street - not for the govt.)

AC

Re:How they used to do it in the old days

[mpe]

These identity cards will certainly reduce instances of fraudulent voting

They could just as easily make it considerably easier to vote multiple times.

Re:How they used to do it in the old days

[losttoy]

The finger mark is to prevent you from voting more than once.

The voting ID card is to ensure that you are a citizen and allowed to vote. Without the finger mark, you could still get someone else's voting card and try to vote again.

Re:How they used to do it in the old days

[arvindn]

As an Indian, I must say that you're missing out a lot about how it was done in the old days:

• It was extremely common for polling booths to be attacked by goons paid by one of the candidates and all the ballot papers destroyed.
• Large numbers of "party members" would vote repeatedly by pretending to be someone else or using special techniques that would remove the ink from their fingers.
• Earlier, results for each voting center would be individually known. This would lead to goons beating up people of those villages that voted against them. AFAIK this doesn't happen in the current system because the EVMs are centrally processed and only constituency-wise results are known.

To summarize, the old system was a nightmare both in terms of fairness and in terms of cost because of the huge population. In comparison, the EVMs in the last elections were a panacea. I'm sure its going to be better this time.

Don't be a luddite. ID cards aren't infringing on anyone's freedom. It sounds especially ridiculous considering that in India we have a long way to go to achieve basic freedoms, like the right of a female to live. Voter ID cards and EVMs are the best thing to happen to India's political system in a long time.

Re:How they used to do it in the old days

[thejackol]

I've done it. A simple nail-polish remover does the job. This damn system is still in use - in rural areas especially, for local elections.

Re:How they used to do it in the old days

[Anonymous Coward]

How exactly is a EVM going to stop goons from attacking/intimidating people going to the polls ?

This represents another barrier for technophobes and people with lower education/familarity with machines to go vote. How many secondary schools use computers ? (as opposed to those that use pen and paper ?) If America had problems with chads (:p), you think people might be mislead by having to press buttons ? I think they just might.. (whoops, wrong button)

You think fraud isnt possible when its centrally processed ? one smart hacker might be all it takes, and unlike in the earlier system with pen and paper, where you might have a remote chance of finding out, in this, the chances are that few would have the skills to even know they've been hax0red..

No, I'm not a Luddite either, but I've seen few , if any studies/educational programs done on these and other issues (its too early here to think of more). That's why I think this system will be anything but better..

Re:How they used to do it in the old days

[thejackol]

Not really just the old days. It still happens quite a lot, in rural areas and such. Problems with goons are a known issue - most of the time with the help of the police, and sometime by bribing people with alcohol and other such perks.

It's not just "party members" who vote repeatedly. There isn't a special technique to remove the ink either. It's such a low quality, nail polish removers will do the trick. I've had to vote thrice once, it was very simple getting it out and voting for two different people too. Voting for another was just a matter of knowing the other's name. Walk in, tell them you are such-and-such and vote.

EVMs do help, but they still need to reach. Most local elections still have these problems.

Re:How they used to do it in the old days

[Anonymous Coward]

I have voted on these Electronic Voting Machines. They still put the indelible mark on index finger before voting. These EVMs DO NOT do validation with ID Cards. An official checks the ID with his list, marks it "voted", puts a mark on your index finger, then you go and vote on EVM.

Re:How they used to do it in the old days

[vu2lid]

* Earlier, results for each voting center would be individually known. This would lead to goons beating up people of those villages that voted against them. AFAIK this doesn't happen in the current system because the EVMs are centrally processed and only constituency-wise results are known.

Hmmm ... Are you still in India ? :-) These procedural defects of the conventional voting system were rectified quite sometime back. At lesat for the pat 20 years or so - they mix votes from a large number of polling booths first before they even start counting, so that no one will be able to guess and punish people from a particular booth or village for voting againgst some group.

India's conventional voting system is humongous and highly efficient (considering how huge the whole operation is) - I would say that those who conducted the last US elections should be sent to India for re-education :-)

One more clarification - these are individual voting machines - there is no computer network (at least right now) etc. which reduces that chance of hacking .

Re:How they used to do it in the old days

[xmpcray]

I work in a media company in India and I can tell you that because of EVMs the time taken for tallying ballots has also come down by a significant time. We used to spend days in office waiting for the last ballot to be counted to declare the result. Now its over within a shift!

Re:How they used to do it in the old days

[TrekkieGod]

Therefore there was no need for any ID Cards. Sigh, practical technology being replaced with technology that infringes on freedoms.

Hmm...I'm unfamiliar with the system, and mozilla seems to be having some kind of trouble clicking on the "mandatory" link, which I assume has more information. However, I don't understand how just having an ID card infringes on freedoms. Sure, it could be used to keep track of who's voting for who, but it can also be almost completely anonymous (the only information the government would know is that you voted). I mean, heck, even here in the US where everyone tends to freak out about privacy concerns you need to both register to vote, and have some sort of ID (driver's license or voter registration card) on you to vote. Then you go to the voting place, and do your stuff, which nobody else can see.

Re:How they used to do it in the old days

[Misch]

I mean, heck, even here in the US where everyone tends to freak out about privacy concerns you need to both register to vote, and have some sort of ID (driver's license or voter registration card) on you to vote.

Until the "Help America [Not] Vote Act" was passed, ID wasn't reqired in some places. In New York, for example, all you had to do was show up at the polls, and sign the voter roll.

Your signature was checked by at least 2 independent checkers against the signature on file and you could vote based on whether the signatures matched. If there was a discrepancy or question, you voted on a paper-based provisional ballot and your eligibility would be determined by the county board of elections later on.

Re:How they used to do it in the old days

[luisdom]

OK, let's sort this out.
Explain me how an ID card for everyone infringes on freedoms more than a driver's licence or social security card.
And then, explain me the drawbacks of a national ID card. I really mean it, I've had an ID card since I was 12 and I really want to know the POV of someone whose country doesn't have that system.

My opinion: from my experience is a good way to prove that you are you and not another person. I'm not flaming, I'm serious (just in case, you never know, here ;))

Re:How they used to do it in the old days

[Anonymous Coward]

I would consider having my hands stained for several weeks to be an infringement on my freedom.

Re:How they used to do it in the old days

[Beliskner]

Therefore there was no need for any ID Cards. Sigh, practical technology being replaced with technology that infringes on freedoms

WHAT???!!! My Grandmother lived in North East India. The corrupt policemen guarding the polls from "Pakistani terrorists" knew most of the people, they knew she would vote for the non-corrupt politician so they told her "You've voted already" and told her to go home. She didn't manage to vote once in the last ten years of her life. I told her she shouldn't even try, some people that insisted on being able to vote were killed. My Uncle was murdered by a corrupt politician (run over by a Governmet truck that failed to stop and then ceased to exist according to the records). THIS IS NO JOKE.

Re:How they used to do it in the old days

[ynakai]

That's sad to hear. I don't think that the type of voting mechanism will improve that type of situation, however --

Hey wait, here's an idea! What about having permanent voting stations throughout the country, and allowing people (with their ID cards) to vote at ANY location for any election that they are eligible to vote in? Then someone from your grandmother's village could travel to another village to vote, away from the power of the local corrupt politician. Of course, police could block village exits / transportation on voting day, but that could be remedied by having a national hotline to anonymously report abuse, dispatching national police (or UN observers) to monitor a polling station.

Re:How they used to do it in the old days

[Anonymous Coward]

I am also from India. What you say about goons attacking polling booths
does happen but it never was that wide spread nor was it the deciding
factor.

Get off of the "India's poor are the Indian-American's burden" high-horse.

I have voted several times in Indian elections - both parliamentary and assembly.
My father was returning officer several times. Even when he was posted
in the supposedly bad areas, there were no untoward incidents. The few incidents that happen make news because they are exceptions to the rule of an orderly,efficient and highly stream-lined process of the Indian elections. Of course, some argue that even one incident is one too many. ALl I have to say to them is that it exponential more resources to make a perfectly good system a perfect system and India cannot afford the expense and they have to make do with whatever they have got.

The mentality that all can be solved using technology is hogwash. Opposing such unimaginative thinking is not Luddism.

BTW, rubbing off the black mark is not that easy because the dye is actually put on the finger between the nail and skin. Part of the dye actually bleeds into the skin and tissue. If somebody wants to take it off, they have to hurt themselves doing it and it shows. At each polling booth, there are representatives from each party. The parties choose these reps. to be knowledgeable individuals who know all the people in the villages covered by the polling booth. If a wrong person tries to vote (this usually happens when a person who already voted tries to vote again on some other's name) they will be challenged by one rep or the other. Usually the false voter would immediately go back. Otherwise he/she can be thrown into the local gaol for a couple of days. To prevent the reps challenging even valid voters, the rule is that the challenging rep has to put down a deposit of Rs. 5 (in the olden days). If the challenged voter turns out to be a valid voter, then the rep would loose the money to the government. Sometimes you see that here are no reps for some parties/candidates. This happens when the contesting party knows that it doesn't have a chance in that particular voting area. Where ever there is a hot contest, there are enough reps from all serious candidates that their interest is adequately protected.

Most stories you here about double voting are by teenagers who are thinking that they are living dangerously by having a minor run in with the authorities. If they turn back unsuccessfully, they would still brag that they have done it.

Re:How they used to do it in the old days

[Beliskner]

What about having permanent voting stations throughout the country, and allowing people (with their ID cards) to vote at ANY location for any election that they are eligible to vote in?

The corrupt politicians will make multiple copies of ID cards and vote in multiple places. Remember, how do you vote if you can't trust the police, and can't trust the US President and NSA's carnivore where DMCA Judges slap you with a "I know you have mp3s, our airport facial recognition cameras know where you are, if you vote you go to jail"?

Then someone from your grandmother's village could travel to another village to vote, away from the power of the local corrupt politician

In the US, even a waitress can afford $50 gas thanks to Bush *conveniently* bombing the correct Countries. In India, in terms of purchasing power it costs $5000 to travel a meaningful distance.

Of course, police could block village exits / transportation on voting day, but that could be remedied by having a national hotline to anonymously report abuse, dispatching national police (or UN observers) to monitor a polling station.

Where would this national hotline go? It's a poor country, nobody cares, everybody is just trying to feed themselves like US factory workers working two jobs on minimum wage. If you're not corrupt then you can't feed yourself, the salary is so low. In India they work six jobs, and the children learn advanced calculus at 12 years of age or they starve to death (quite an incentive to study). CNN doesn't care because at the end of the day corruption and abuse are nothing, there are tens of thousands of dead Sierra Leonians children with both their hands chopped off walking around, with no hospitals, nowhere to go

Re:How they used to do it in the old days

[ynakai]

The corrupt politicians will make multiple copies of ID cards and vote in multiple places.

Clearly, multiple votes on a single ID can be detected and invalidated by the central counting facility - all you need is a counter on each voting machine of how many times each ID has voted. (At each machine, you can prevent the second, third, and other attempts; at the central counting facility you can detect and invalidate multiple votes.) Of course, someone could try to invalidate large numbers of opposition voters by making fake multiple votes, but that would throw a lot of suspicion on the process and probably result in a re-vote. Plus, using printed ballot receipts by each person should allow an accurate semi-mechanical recount.

Where would this national hotline go? It's a poor country, nobody cares...

It's been said that the electoral commision cares a lot (as evidenced by the move to electronic voting) and will redo an election at the first hint of problems. So the hotline would go to them. The thing about corruption is that it creates a cycle of apathy, economic stagnation, and more corruption. Doing something active to break the cycle is the only way to solve it.

I share your frustration with poverty, corruption, and the neglect of the West. But India has great potential and a lot going for it already, so do not let despair immobilize you.

They can because...

[insecuritiez]

In a country where the people have little power or voice if someone up high wants it to be that way it is. In the US you have too many people complain. Sometimes Americans need to suck it up. (I'm an American)

Re:They can because...

[alphakappa]

In a country where the people have little power or voice..
are you talking about india? I'm an indian, but that's not the reason I'm saying this - no government is capable of taking unilateral decisions in India - people have too much power.. It's true that sometimes politics takes precedence over rationality and bad decisions take place, but it's certainly not due to lack of power for the citizens.

*Shakes head*

[The Bungi]

I don't understand the Indians. They have more people living in poverty than there are people in the US, yet they build nukes and spend tons of money so they can live on the bleeding edge of [insert thing here].

Why not invest in quality of life instead?

Re:*Shakes head*

[insecuritiez]

India has some of the best medicin and education in the world. Much of the country is still remote though. It's happening, faster than it did in the US/Europe too.

Re:*Shakes head*

[Anonymous Coward]

It's because of their culture (Hinduism).
It's the same reason corpses are left to rot in the streets, etc. They have a totally different world view than us (which I personally abhor, but that's just my opinion).

Re:*Shakes head*

[EinarH]

I don't understand the Indians. They have more people living in poverty than there are people in the US, yet they build nukes and spend tons of money so they can live on the bleeding edge of [insert thing here].

I don't understand the Americans. They have more people living in poverty than there are people in Spain, yet they build nukes and spend tons of money so they can live on the bleeding edge of [insert thing here].

So what the FUCK is your point?

Re:*Shakes head*

[jericho4.0]

Funny, a lot of people in the world look at the U.S and think the same thing. No universial health care!? No free university!? High school students who can't read!? Weird.

Re:*Shakes head*

[The Bungi]

No, that would Cuba. 52% of Indians can't read or write, 25% live under the poverty line, you have 7 million internet users (out of a billion), you spend 2.5% of your GDP in nukes and you receive 3 billion dollars in external aid per year. Your government has been running a deficit since the 70s and you owe 100 billion dollars to everyone from the World Bank to McDonalds.

So either we're talking some other country or you just pulled that one out of a hat.

Re:*Shakes head*

[Anonymous Coward]

You should know that we live in a "debt economy". No debt=no money (check out creating/destroying money mecanisms). So it is quite normal governments have a big debt... The real matter is the control of its increasing speed.

Re:*Shakes head*

[t123]

just some statistics for those who care (from the cia world fact book).

India
Population - 1,045,845,226
Population below poverty line - 25%
Unemployment - 8.8%
Military Expenditure - $12,079.7 million ( 2.5% of gdp)

US
Population - 280,562,489
Population below poverty line - 13%
Unemployment - 5%
Military Expenditure - $276.7 billion ( 3.2% of gdp)

Re:*Shakes head*

[alphakappa]

the same reason why americans went to the moon - 1. because you can do it 2. you do not stop living just because poverty is a problem. Poverty is always a problem in every society. While poverty is being tackled should an entire nation stop investing in technology and stuff used to enable one to "live on the bleeding edge of.."? 3. I don't want this to be a troll, but your question is plain silly and condescending.

Re:*Shakes head*

[alphakappa]

oops, my comment was meant for
don't understand the Indians. They have more people living in poverty than there are people in the US, yet they build nukes and spend tons of money so they can live on the bleeding edge of [insert thing here].

Re:*Shakes head*

[alphakappa]

get real... trolling isn't going to make you great.. and you shouldn't feel so insecure about your own society that you have to trash other societies. I've lived in both and I know that both are perfectly nice places with perfectly nice people. There's really no point in Americans trashing Indian society or vice versa. Okay now back to the story.

Re:*Shakes head*

[xisco]

Well, at least the Indians won't have the problem of not knowing who the heck is their president because no one really knows where the hell are those ballots from Florida...

Re:*Shakes head*

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference is that the people living in poverty in the US still own cars, houses, and eat every single day.
The people living in poverty in the US are better off than most of the population of India.

Re:*Shakes head*

[Anonymous Coward]

Wonder where you get the idea that Hindus leave corpses rotting in the streets ? Hinduism mandates that dead bodies be cremated. The only problem with Hinduism is that it is extremely tolerant, but of course, people are trying their best to change that now.

Re:*Shakes head*

[vu2lid]

Get out of your small world, with preconceived ideas - India is a higly complex society - if you are from some country like US and never directly experienced or exposed to the Indian socity you will possibly NEVER know how complex things are there (I have lived in India, US and other countries for long periods of time to know this).

Re:*Shakes head*

[mccalli]

His point is still right. I also think that yours is right. The one does not invalidate the other.

Cheers,
Ian

Re:*Shakes head*

[The Cydonian]

Interesting most posters here think you are American ;-), but the short answer is that India is a very big country. Like I said earlier, we're one-sixth of all humanity.

Which is to say, that those country-wide stats often give a very skewed picture; for instance, the state I was born, Kerala, has 100% literacy, and health-levels that match European standards. And yet, as a country, we rank 127 on the UN Development scale, primarily because of bad literacy levels in the North and in the tribal belt in the centre.

Then again, this is not quite bleeding edge technology; as I pointed out earlier, the voting machines are at least a generation old.

Re:*Shakes head*

[Anonymous Coward]

I understand. But it costs more to use paper ballot, counting them, securing them till counting, etc. Doing away is doing away with d'cracy itself.

Re:*Shakes head*

[Vedanti]

You have lost touch with reality ... just look at the number of people who live on the roads of New York ... (and all the people in homeless shelters)

Re:*Shakes head*

[Vedanti]

If US didn't turn a blind eye when Chinese supplied all the nuke tech to Pakistan, India would not have the need for nukes. Remember (unlike US) India has two nuke powered neighbours who have in the past waged wars on India. I'm not sure it was correct to test nukes a few years back ... that was definitely politics. India should have just kept the options open and never gone openly nuclear (like Isreal does now). Ofcourse, not having nukes will not remove poverty. In a way, they are cheaper than a war with Pakistan (definitely that has helped prevent a war ... don't know for how long).

Re:*Shakes head*

[Anonymous Coward]

. It's happening, faster than it did in the US/Europe too.

After the US/Europe has done all expensive and time consuming R&D that the Indians are taking advantage of I would hope they could catch up faster than the US/Europe did it from scratch.

Re:*Shakes head*

[Anonymous Coward]

And how much aid was sent TO the US vs how much aid has been sent to India?

Re:*Shakes head*

[Anonymous Coward]

Ofcourse, not having nukes will not remove poverty. In a way, they are cheaper than a war with Pakistan (definitely that has helped prevent a war ... don't know for how long).

A nuclear war with Pakistan may have helped with over population problems though, wouldn't it.

Re:*Shakes head*

[jpu8086]

The CIA factbook is the biggest piece of shit. It's full of blatant mis-facts.

I know for a fact that india's average per capita income isn't anywhere around the $2,500 mark they report. It's closer to $500. Look here for proof.

I swear someone at CIA just makes up this shit when it comes time to turn in a report. "Fuck, I didn't do my job and research this, let me make up an appropriate value and report it."

Is this becoming a trademark CIA thing or what? Well, I think Bush would agree with me right about now.

Re:*Shakes head*

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm not sure it was correct to test nukes a few years back ..."

I wasnt sure of it then either. But I am certain of it now (everyone has 20/20 hindsight). After the tests there was a brief period of sanctions otherwise not much damage. On the other hand, more countries take India seriously now.

I am all for abolishing nukes the world over but the sad reality is that it is not going to happen. If a country wants to be taken seriously in todays world it had better be a nuclear power.

Re:*Shakes head*

[jd]

Visit south Carolina some day. Unemployment benefits are less than half of the cost of absolute minimal survivable standards. After six months, those who survive are dropped off the unemployment figures, so nobody knows what they really are.

The average time to get re-hired in South Carolina is 11 months. And that's in the booming industries.

Re:*Shakes head*

[The Bungi]

Well, you probably know where I'm coming from on this one. I'd be making the same argument if this was Mexico or Brasil doing something that IMO is pointless. FWIW =)

Re:*Shakes head*

[The Bungi]

Sigh. I'm not trying to trash Indian society, and I don't feel insecure about "my own society". If your response to my original post is "we have the best medicine and education" you're going to get some facts from me, that's all. I'm perfectly aware of "my society's" shortcomings.

Re:*Shakes head*

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet there are shelters and kitchens, why would people choose to instead live that way? Unsurprisingly, there are people that would fail in any society.

Re:*Shakes head*

[nukepapa]

My friend, *REAL* poverty is what you see in the remote villages of India. Poor people dont even have shelters or soup kitchens or things of that sort. I know because I've seen it.

Re:*Shakes head*

[Anonymous Coward]

I am sorry this is all Britains fault.
We just did not give America the post colonial nightmare it clearly deserves.
For starters we initiated the elimination of the indiginous people instead of arming them up to create a perennial war zone.
Secondly we only exported one religion and even then we couldn't get the different factions to confront each other violently enough.
We did import a rival ethnic group but failed again since we had already put them into slavery so they couldn't get organised and fight for their rights.

Re:*Shakes head*

[alphakappa]

cheers, I have no illusions about having the 'best medicine and education'.. precisely why I am studying in the US, and not in India :-)

Re:*Shakes head*

[Numerica]

Necessities are different from country to country. Having lived in India, I'd say that although they might not own cars (I don't either actually), Indians' levels of happiness are much higher. Americans spend their time thinking about these things they don't have--Indians generally don't and therefore lead much more peaceful existences.

Re:*Shakes head*

[jd]

Small correction. Remote villages in India (and other poor nations) aren't "poor", because poor implies being somewhere on the monetary scale.

I consider those in extreme parts of Ethiopia or India to be well past the stage of "poor", being placed somewhere in the realms of "destitute" to "hand-and-mouth bare-bones survival".

I saw the conditions on the now-infamous Michael Burke report which triggered the Live Aid efforts, and I have no reason to believe things have improved. All evidence is that things have got worse in many of these countries.

There are Americans in America who live in similar conditions, though. Abandoned, forgotten and shunned, there are maybe as many as a million "forgotten" Americans who, in their own country of "plenty", don't get soup kitchens either. When they eat, it is because they caught a rat.

This does not lessen the significance of "third world" nations who are largely starving because Europe and the US economically profit from keeping things that way.

But don't even pretend America is a saint to its own people. There are many for whom a homeless shelter would be a step up of the same magnitude as a Slashdot reader inheriting the combined wealth of Fort Knox and Bill Gates.

I find it terrible, pathetic and inhuman for the Western powers to ignore the developing nations, unless it's to use them for giant sweat-shops, sex tourism or practice bombing areas.

I find it equally terrible, pathetic and inhuman that those same powers won't even help those people who are technically their citizens.

Just as an aside, who is more likely to volunteer for suicide attacks? Especially biological suicide attacks? A rich, well-to-do person who has a good, stable environment and a feeling of being heard, or an "invisible" half-starved begger who's very likely to die from any number of causes and who is likely in a state of permanent depression, pain and misery?

True "Homeland Security" cannot exist in a world where poverty is the norm, destitution is common and hand-to-mouth survival is widespread.

Eliminating terrorism and evil is not about gunning down 14-year-old kids, or even the sons of dictators. If you want security, you eliminate extreme poverty, at home and abroad, and you do so with extreme prejudice.

The DoD reportedly spend 4 trillion dollars, via its credit card system, on porn and sex. It doesn't seem to have affected the DoD or the national economy much.

If the US spent 4 trillion on revitalizing Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, the disputed Kashmir region, the less-stable parts of Africa, and the Polynesian islands, you'd see a difference. And a lot less tension.

I'm not talking 4 trillion dollars of rice. I mean real revitalizing :- high quality education, cutting-edge health care (physical and mental), quality water-capture systems (not river dams - those are an environmental nightmare), improved communication and improved transportation, FOR ALL!

Re:*Shakes head*

[AnnaSaru]

US politics looks like a Microsoft - no choice . only two political parties. the cathedral. Indian political system - many parties. lots of choice. is like linux. will be poor , but will thrive and be creative. (as long as it does not have close political co-operation with US - the friend of despots and dictators worldwide) The cathedral and the bazaar - one more reason why indians thrive these days.

Re:*Shakes head*

[nukepapa]

Well said , JD. However, realistically speaking, I feel some countries are like dogs' tails. You really cant straighten them for good. Take for instance, Japan and Germany. They were bombed to bits in WW2 but after the american occupation,they have bounced back into the top 5 economies of the world. Why? Because the people there care where their country is. The "teeming masses" in 3rd world countries beat their chests in patriotic fervor and would die for their countries but when at peace, they turn on each other. I find the thought of "common good" to be very very uncommon. There is no "team spirit" and "can do" attitude. At the risk of sounding prejudiced, I would say that countries like Iraq, and most other asian countries will always play catch up. Once the cradle of civilizations, these countries will continue to bend in obeisance to the 3 centuries old USA.

Re:*Shakes head*

[Vedanti]

Strategically nuke testing was a disaster. It just nuetralized conventional superiority India enjoys over Pak. Now Pak thinks that they can do *whatever they want* and India won't be able to go to a war ... look at Kargil and all the Terrorism mess that keeps happening after the nuke tests.

Currently India has absolutely no way to stop Pak from supporting terrorism. Short of risking a nuke war.

It would have been much better to try to knock off Pak nuclear facilities ...

Re:*Shakes head*

[bobsmith957]

Now if the good taxpayers of SC paid for unemployement indefinately, and at a rate in which you could live well, you (or anyone else) wouldn't be very motivated to go find a job now would you? I'm sorry you're apparently not working, but let's be realistic.

A very sensible decision...

[jkrise]

Saves a lot of money, the technology and hardware is indigenous, no additional security issues as compared to the ballot-box-ink-paper technique etc.

All in all, a sensible decision. The voter electronic id-cards are also almost completed - about 75 cents a card. When that gets fully completed, elections in the biggest democracy in the world can be conducted smoothly.

-

Re:A very sensible decision...

[WolfWithoutAClause]

Yes, it's saves a lot of money, because you can fiddle the election without spending a lot. Hmm. But both sides will be doing that, so it could escalate. Oh well either way, the result should appear to be fair whilst having nothing to do with the way the population actually voted; good job nobody trusts exit polls. It's called democracy I guess. Except maybe with an e infront.

Re:A very sensible decision...

[Basil Ganglia]

If the need arises, how would they do a recount?

Re:A very sensible decision...

[quasiac]

no additional security issues as compared to the ballot-box-ink-paper technique

This is incorrect. Having electronic voting machines eliminates certain avenues for fraud, but introduces a huge number of others... In fact, ensuring security is not possible unless the voting machines are used purely as user interfaces.

But with everyone in India voting

[Anonymous Coward]

Who will do the tech support for the voting machines?

Re:But with everyone in India voting

[TekkenLaw]

Any pointers to sites about hacking a voting machine...?

BTW, does it run linux..?

Re:But with everyone in India voting

[jkrise]

EVMs are programmed in assembly language, have a serial port to interface to the counting PC, and are very simple devices. Less than 70 machines failed when 11,000 were used last year - and most were fake votes and rigging, not machine failures or bugs.

Tech support normally involves calling up the Area Officer and replacing a new machine. The machine itself costs about $100, IIRC.

-

Re:But with everyone in India voting

[Larsing]

Who do you think?

They just outsorce it to an Indian software house, like everyone else! ,-)

Re:But with everyone in India voting

[Anonymous Coward]

The (future) president?

Re:But with everyone in India voting

[silkySlim]

Maybe a few hundred thousand American programmers could get work visas and support it for a fraction of what the Indian guys charged.

They still do it...

[jkrise]

The dye is still in vogue, despite electronic cards. So is the manual register. This is used to counter-check any fake / bogus voting.

-

Re:They still do it...

[Anonymous Coward]

The dye is still in vogue...

Yeah, it's called a police record.

Great...

[seanadams.com]

India is holding their entire election online, and I can't even get cable modem service in Silicon Valley. Christ almighty.

Re:Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

RTFA. It doesn't say anything about online. It says they're using Electronic Voting Machines. Here in The Netherlands, that means that after the elections people have to bring diskettes from the EVMs to a central location where the totals for the district are calculated, all offline.

Re:Great...

[jkrise]

India is holding their entire election online

Not so fast... they use Electronic voting machines, assembly language programmed devices. No internet voting yet.

Think Indians are dumb to use technology that's so prone to fraud?

-

Re:Great...

[fven]

Think Indians are dumb to use technology that's so prone to fraud? What makes you think electronic voting machines are not prone to fraud, faked votes, incorrect counting etc etc?

Re:Great...

[jkrise]

Only the machines are electronic. Manual registers and dye-on-fingers are still used as a second-level check.

-

Re:Great...

[HiKarma]

Holding electronic elections is a sign of a backwards country, not an advanced one. Electronic elections are more prone to fraud and breakdown unless done with great care. See this site for details.

Re:Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

Think Indians are dumb

Yes "baboo", we in fact do think that.

Re:Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

Christ almighty.

Peace, love and Hare Krishna

Re:Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

Referencing the internet is a sign of a backwards intellect, not an advanced one. Web sites are more prone to fraud and breakdown unless done with great care. See a book for details.

Re:Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

India is holding their entire election online, and I can't even get cable modem service in Silicon Valley. Christ almighty.

Take a look around. Silicon Valley is India.

Re:Great...

[Lord Omlette]

Dye on fingers? Please elaborate?

Re:Great...

[nukepapa]

ha ha, speak for yourself anonymous coward. I am an Indian and a statement like that from you proves where the dumbness lies.

Debating the merits is good!

[fastdecade]

While the U.S. debates the merits of e-voting

This makes it sound like a bad thing ... "India is pushing ahead and leaving the USA behind". Actually, it is a fine idea to debate the merits before taking a big risk on the key process in democracy.

I'm surprised India is doing this ... electronic voting has not been trialled on anything remotely this big. AFAIK no city/state/province has run an all-electronic election, let alone an entire country. Great initiative, plenty for everyone to learn from, but seems just a bit dangerous.

BTW Does this mean the end of election night coverage?
(End of day, sorry you lose,hasta la vista)

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[Jagunco]

electronic voting has not been trialled on anything remotely this big. AFAIK no city/state/province has run an all-electronic election, let alone an entire country.

Brazil (160 million inhabitants) has been doing electronic voting for nearly 10 years, and the last election (2002) was "all electronic". The whole system used has been shown to be quite reliable and fast.

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[T-Ranger]

From what I understand, there is little downside to what India is planning. There not going to implement internet voting or retina scans or anything wiz-bang crazy. Just electronic counting machines.
(Im assuming your a 'merkin since your jumping to the US' defence).. It has been prooven that the punch card system in use all over your great country dosent work. Not only do the mechanics of US elections not work, but the theroy of US presidental elections - the electorial colage - would be laughable if it diddnt effect the rest of the world so much.

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[alphakappa]

True, this is the end of election night coverage. I've seen the machines being used when I was in india (more than a year ago) and when elections were conducted in Kerala (and other places), the machines would be collected and brought to a central place and the results would be on television in a few hours. The anticipation and debates have to be real quick now.

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[Larsing]

Actually, it is a fine idea to debate the merits before taking a big risk...

Except when it comes to invading soverigin nations and violating other peoples human rights..?

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[Tellarin]

Of course it's a great ideia to debate the merits of something like this.

But you are wrong when you say no country has done it before.

Brazil has had elections for everything from President to Mayor in all-eletronics elections.

And Brazil is larger than USA if you don't include Alaska (and just a little smaller if you do), and has more than 160,000,000 people.
Voting in Brazil is mandatory and most part of the population is in voting age.

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[xisco]

I might add another point: in the last elections, we knew who was going to be the new president in the same day (or the next, I don't remember quite well). We didn't have to wait for a Court to decide whether the votes from some region should be counted again or not, nor had to wait for months to know who won the election.

I hope I am being obvious enough...

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[Anonymous Coward]

Good for you. In every election except the last one we could say the same thing. So what is your point?

I guess you aren't being obvious enough.

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[ojQj]

I'm not going to defend the punch card system. But it's not used "all over [my] great country". There are some backwards states.

The electoral college is irritating, but there is no true theoretical difference between it and party discipline in Germany. In both cases a majority opinion can theoretically and occasionally practically be voted down. In Europe, all representatives to the European parlaiment are also chosen by the majority party, and not proportionally. That system developed in Europe for exactly the same reasons that the electoral college developed in the US.

I'm highly critical of my country on a large number of issues. Knowing the facts however, I can't agree with you on this one.

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[Cigarra]

Ok, "AFAUK" seems to be... well, not that far, after all :) Let me remind you there is a WORLD outside USA. There are sovereign countries out there. Things actually happen out there. So, when you say things like "no city/state/province has run an all-electronic election, let alone an entire country" just try to be sure to specify you are talking about your world, i.e., USA.

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[bugsmalli]

no ofcourse not! It just means that yahoo can now have "fantasy elections" where all of us can play online.

Next would be role playing election games...

your village just called
they're looking for their idiot.

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[Stalky]

It has been prooven that the punch card system in use all over your great country dosent work.

Actually, we've been using EVMs in the backwaters of Kentucky at least since the first time I voted here, 17 years ago.

Not only do the mechanics of US elections not work, but the theroy of US presidental elections - the electorial colage - would be laughable if it diddnt effect the rest of the world so much.

The Electoral College weights the votes of the US's member states so that the smaller states' voices are not drowned out by those of the larger states. The EU, at least, thinks that the theory behind this is not all that ridiculous, because the votes of the members of the Council of the European Union are weighted in the same way.

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[bdeclerc]

In Europe, all representatives to the European parlaiment are also chosen by the majority party, and not proportionally.

I don't know where you got that idea from, the election format for the European elections is different from country to country, and in Belgium for one, it IS proportional (well, mostly, there is a non-proportional division between the three language-communities Dutch-speaking, French-speaking and German-speaking)

Other countries use different mechanisms, which are usually (but not always) similar to those for national elections.

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[ojQj]

Well actually, in the US it is decided from state to state as well. And there are states in which it is proportional. So while I obviously made an error, your comment only points out that Europe is even more similar to the US in this respect than we both suspected.

Thank you for the information.

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[Cromac]

If they're already having significant problems with goon squads (referenced from other posts) paid by candidates skewing election results how is this going to be worse? At least they're trying something new that might help with the problem, and should generate valuable information for the rest of the world to use on what to do and what not to do with electronic voting.

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[Cromac]

Voting in Brazil is mandatory and most part of the population is in voting age.

How do they enforce mandatory voting? What are the consequences for NOT voting? Fines, jail? What kind of records do they keep to ensure that everyone votes?

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[Tellarin]

The consequences are: paying fines and even losing your CPF, some sort of Brazillian social security number.

The eleitoral tribunals keep records of who voted, and you receive a token stating that you voted.

And to get a job or have a bank account (and much more), you must have a valid CPF.

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[raj2569]

I'm surprised India is doing this ... electronic voting has not been trialled on anything remotely this big. AFAIK no city/state/province has run an all-electronic election, let alone an entire country. Great initiative, plenty for everyone to learn from, but seems just a bit dangerous.

EC of India has conducted extensive trials in many smaller states and elections before deciding to use using EVMs for national elections. Last assembly and parleament elections in my state, Kerala was done using EVMs, and I voted for both the elections, and yes, I am some one reading and replying to /. in my own home at Trivandrum, Kerala, India.

I must also say that while all the stuff being said about cast system and Goonds and other nasty stuff is partially true, it is not that every elections are rigged or every polling booth captured. Please understand, India is too big and diverse to genaralise on any thing. Here in my state, booth capturing and rigging are almost non existant, and so also the cast system.

We have quality of life parameters comparable to western world. For example life expectancy in Kerala is 72, the same as the Czech Republic, whereas Ireland's is 74. And 95% of Keralans over the age of seven can read and write, the same as in Israel. Infant mortality rate - the number of infants per 1,000 live births who die before the end of their first year - is 13, the same as that in Greece and better than in Portugal. (Ireland's figure, 7, is one of the best in the world - only Sweden and Japan do better). Moreover, in Kerala, the average number of live births per woman is only 1.7, less than the replacement rate. I have taken these figures from here

But that do not mean all is well. But it also means that india is not all snake charmers and maharajas.

raj

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[Cromac]

Alrighty, pretty significant penaltys for not voting then. That would get the voter participation up. If we did that in the US maybe we could get more than 25% to the polls.

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[accountant]

can any Indian enlighten me, do they measure the strength of candidates by the amount of money they have collected over there?

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[Mryll]

All of the voting machines in Denver, perhaps in Colorado, are electronic. I remember that my mother used a mechanical machine when she voted in 1976. I've never seen a punch card ballot first-hand.

The electoral college is not stupid, laughable, or a joke. It's pretty much a necessity for any sort of fairness in a voting-based system where the geography is large and diverse enough to support both concentrated and sparse populations, if any respect for political differences relative to geographic location is had. Plans akin to the Senate only, ignoring population differences between regions, or the House only, ignoring regional differences between populations, were considered. The EC is an appropriate compromise for a place the size of the US.

Re:Debating the merits is good!

[T-Ranger]

The underlying theroy is that _people_ are not electing the US president or the EU Council(ers?), the states/member nations are.

The problem is that the popular interpertation of the US Presidential Election is that it is an election by the people. And its not. Merrits of the system asside, there is a serious divergence in what the US PE is being sold as - and though to be - compared to what it is.

All?

[Anonymous Coward]

All electronic means the ones voting are electronic also?

What if it was hacked?

[nicholaides]

I can't even imagine what would happen if someone was able to hack the system without it being noticed.

Re:What if it was hacked?

[agent dero]

What disturbs me is who monitors the systems?

If they do get cracked, couldn't it be by the leaving politicians request, at which the "changes" made by a cracker wouldn't be looked at, they could just let him on by.

A similar problem is with non-electronic means, somebody has to be trusted enough to get the votes from voters, counted, and registered. The system ain't perfect, but India, I believe is cutting out more temptations for folks to fiddle with results.

Anyways, they could use IPv6 to transfer results, I don't know a script kiddie that can even spell IPv6 ;-)

Voting, numbers and caste system

[ControlFreal]

First off, this election will generate a"vote-databases" larger than about any other election on this planet. Given that about a billion people live in India, there will be hundreds of millions of votes. Although electronic voting is nothing new (in the Netherlands the elections are almost 100% electronic for years now), the sheer scale of this electronic election makes it interesting.

But exactly how many people eligible for voting are there? Obviously, a significant number of the about 1 billion inhabitants will be under the legal voting age.

And then, how about the caste system? Please note that I'm not trying to be a troll here: I know the caste system doesn't officially exist anymore, but I've been in India for work for a month, and I found it pretty clear that people from different castes are treated differently. Are people from the lowests castes (or the caste-less) discouraged from voting in any way? And does the mandatory presentation of an ID-card prevent many of these people from voting?

Is there anyone who can provide a decent, and honest, background on this? It is an interesting sociological issue.

Re:Voting, numbers and caste system

[jkrise]

But exactly how many people eligible for voting are there? Obviously, a significant number of the about 1 billion inhabitants will be under the legal voting age.

About 40% of the population...

And then, how about the caste system?... Are people from the lowests castes (or the caste-less) discouraged from voting in any way?

Actually, it's the other way round. People from the lowest income levels are actively enlisted for voting, since they can be easily induced with comparatively lesser money.

OTOH, voter apathy among middle-class is quite common in India.

And does the mandatory presentation of an ID-card prevent many of these people from voting?

No way.. refer above, it's encouraged.

Is there anyone who can provide a decent, and honest, background on this? It is an interesting sociological issue.

Actually the caste system existed in India for 'functional reasons' and not as a means of discrimination. Politicians have groomed these into vote-banks by offering money and power.

Most caste-names are actually job-functions (like Carpenters, Woods, Smiths, Masons, Butchers you come across in Western socities). Present social conditions have actually made things screwed up for all concerned. A case in point - the coconut-tree climber charges about 20 cents a tree, which yields about 20 nuts per month. These guys are heavily sought-after and start charging 40 cents plus 2 nuts (about 10 cents) now. They send their children to 'convent' schools, who in turn learn skills different from their 'inherited' skills. Most 'caste' people in the current generation aren't capable of performing their roles honorably any more. And so it goes on...

-

Re:Voting, numbers and caste system

[MaximusTheGreat]

In some states this is indeed an issue. But, election commsion is an independent constitutional body, and has been known to conduct re-elections in areas with slightest hint of suspicion/problem. One check that makes sure that this is not rampent is the presence of a representative from each candidate in each polling booth, to make sure voting is fair.

Also, interestingly enough the states(UP, Bihar etc.) in which this is an issue are the very states with low-caste candidates holding the reigns of power in the state legislature. Now that would not happen if the low caste people were not allowed to vote, would it?

Re:Voting, numbers and caste system

[anandcp]

No one is discouraged and prevented from Voting. In fact WE Indians jealously guard our right to vote even though we may have differences in castes. The booth is the only place where you can see a high-caste hindu standing beside a low-caste outcaste. At the time of election we are proud we can vote.

Re:Voting, numbers and caste system

[vishakh]

People belonging to the lower castes were certainly disenfranchised before in independent India's history. The Indian state was used as a tool of control by the upper castes to a certain extent and there certainly were localized efforts to prevent lower castes from voting to keep them powerless. However, the situation today is very different. The lower castes are generally no longer disenfranchised and many political movements (e.g. the BSP) who represent them have become significant players both regionally and nationally. Of course, these parties are as corrupt and criminalized as the rest. :) Today, there are still some regions of India where the upper castes wield enough power to shut out the lower castes from assuming electoral expression. I believe these pockets are shrinking and democracy is become more representative with every passing day. This upsurge of lower caste power has created complex political dynamics today, with many competing groups fighting for the largest share of the economic pie. India does live in two realities. Rural and poor India is still caught up in caste struggle, while urban and rich India could care less (to a large extent). As a result, the reality is infinitely more complex than what I have posted here.

Re:Voting, numbers and caste system

[saneax]

Well, As I stay in India And do have a voters ID Card, I can say that Its reversal of the Caste System. As U may not KNow there happens to be a Quota for Study, Jobs And even Legeslative POsts for Lower caste People (called Scheduled Cast, etc.). In India Funny thing was 1% Brahmins (Upper Caste) Controlled everyone. Now With democracy the wheen has turned a full round and the reins have gone into the Lower Castes. Its The Upper caste people who are finding it difficult. Well This is what they say as ' What u sow u shall reap '.
Things are quite Free and fair except whereever there are musclemen who force the general voters to vote for a certain candidate. and the musclemen are backed by administrative people. Well I guess such a problem could be ne where.

Re:Voting, numbers and caste system

[arvindn]

Actually the caste system existed in India for 'functional reasons' and not as a means of discrimination. Politicians have groomed these into vote-banks by offering money and power. ... Present social conditions have actually made things screwed up for all concerned.

Shit.

Same old RSS propaganda material.

Most common excuse given to hide from the fact that the caste system has always been extremely unfair to the lower castes, a highly shameful, dehumanizing and severe abuse of human rights.

(I am an Indian) I too used to believe what you said, having been brainwashed by the right, but I'm sorry to tell you that there's no truth to it. I've done courses on Indian history, and I assure you that it doesn't become any better as you go back in time (which is contrary to the central dogma of Hindu philosophy). Buddhism and Jainism arose more than 2500 years ago as rebel movements against the caste system. (If you haven't guessed it already, I'm atheist).

Here's an interesting tidbit: the concepts of karma and rebirth arose (partly) as a method of oppression of the underprivileged, as a tool to convince them that the misery they faced was the result of their own faults in "previous births".

Anyway, my rant is done. I'll accept two things you said: dirty politicians leverage caste to achieve their dirty ends, and that it initially arose as a functional classification. But there's no way at all you can justify it, its been sickening and shameful almost from the beginning (the dividing line is, IIRC, between the "early Vedic" and the "later vedic" periods, when Varna became "Jathi".)

Re:Voting, numbers and caste system

[jkrise]

the caste system has always been extremely unfair to the lower castes, a highly shameful, dehumanizing and severe abuse of human rights.

Partly true. However shame has no ideology and does not have caste as it's bearing. Is the degree of shame different in an unemployed American and an unemployed Indian? So long as people are happy doing their jobs in society, there's no shame involved. I belong to the uppermost caste in the land, but freely mingle with, and actually do some functions 'reserved' for other castes.

Talking of human rights, have you considered that all these crusades against 'child labour', ;sweatshops' etc. could actually make the problem worse? In my childhood days, it was my ambition to become a milkman - something reserved for a lower caste. Does this knowledge reduce my respect for a milkman or a tree-climber? Please reflect.

But there's no way at all you can justify it, its been sickening and shameful almost from the beginning..

OTOH, is it less sickening or less shameful when the richest man in the world, a convicted capitalist - lectures to Indians, and enriches himself at their cost? For providing sub-standard products in return? What's the difference between a high-caste crook and a high-profile cheat? Zilch.

Poverty knows no shame. The rich and glorious aren't the same either. High caste Indians treated as third-rate citizens abroad need to be more ashamed and sickened...but their sense of prestige is numbed by the false pride of affluence.

There is no simple answer to the point you raised, and there are many facets to the issue. Respecting people of all castes and faiths (as individuals) will go a long way in mitigating the problem.

-

Re:Voting, numbers and caste system

[GigsVT]

the concepts of karma and rebirth arose (partly) as a method of oppression of the underprivileged

All religion is a method of oppression of the underpriviledged.

Re:Voting, numbers and caste system

[izx]

People from the "lower" castes (Dalits is the PC term, with Scheduled/Backward Castes the official term) are a sizeable chunk of the electorate and are wooed actively and encouraged to vote for and by political parties that claim to have their best interests at heart, and that often have party officials of similar castes. For example, see this brief profile of the The Bahujan Samaj Party, a major player in the field in Central/Northern India.

Re:Voting, numbers and caste system

[Vedanti]

Not quite correct. Casteism may have been very nascent at the time of Budha. Manu-smrithi is dated after the time of budha. Budhism was essentially against the vedic sacrifices and practices. During that time India was still primarily Vedic ... not Hindu, as we know Hinduism today. Offcourse, caste being just a vocation is just some silly primary school text book stuff.

Re:Voting, numbers and caste system

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, the History book you have read were written by pseudo secular pinko's, they are the ones who brainwashed.

Re:Voting, numbers and caste system

[Anonymous Coward]

"Its The Upper caste people who are finding it difficult. Well This is what they say as ' What u sow u shall reap '."

Very interesting. Except that the generation that sowed and the generation that is reaping are different. I suppose you believe in punishing a criminal and his descencents. (Pray how many generations do you plan to persecute)

Re:Voting, numbers and caste system

[nivedita]

Uh, beggin' pardon for being so obtuse, but wtf is wrong with a "heavily sought-after" coconut picker asking for more money, or sending his kids to whatever school he wants? Or do you think that just because you are "upper-caste" and a coconut picker is "lower-caste" you have a God-given right to his labour?

Re:Voting, numbers and caste system

[bsdparasite]

Well said.

But equality is a lost cause. Talk to me about one country where everyone is considered equal by others. I mean in their minds. In a vast majority of lands, you will not get equality, but justice. That's what separates the democracies from the other forms of government. If a lower caste person goes to court, he gets the same treatment as someone from the upper caste does. I cannot speak for exceptions, of course.

The minds of upper caste people have been washed for millenia to believe that they are superior to others. This will not change. But, what has changed is that people are given justice.

Re:Voting, numbers and caste system

[Beliskner]

Most common excuse given to hide from the fact that the caste system has always been extremely unfair to the lower castes, a highly shameful, dehumanizing and severe abuse of human rights

Caste system abuses the Human Rights of lower castes, the US dollar abuses the Human Rights of waitresses, meatpackers and recently the US IT workforce. So what's new?

Re:Voting, numbers and caste system

[nukepapa]

the interesting thing is that people from the so called "lower castes" have the biggest voter turnout. Most politicians gear their campaigns accordingly, appealing to caste allegiances to garner votes. I can't back this up with data but this is just my personal observation based on what I've seen and heard in India (I lived there 26 years and moved to the US 3 years ago)

Re:Voting, numbers and caste system

[sbszine]

tidbit: the concepts of karma and rebirth arose (partly) as a method of oppression of the underprivileged, as a tool to convince them that the misery they faced was the result of their own faults in "previous births".

This reminds me of the christian tropes of 'the meek shall inherit', 'render unto Caesar' and 'vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord' (i.e. wait for your heavenly reward, co-operate with those who enslave you, don't retaliate) encouraging black slaves in the US not to revolt.

(Note: This is not a flame against religion, it's just noting that oppressors sometimes twist religious ideas to their advantage).

Re:Voting, numbers and caste system

[Anonymous Coward]

You are obtuse beyond redemption. Looks like you completely missed the point that the so called "low caste" is not really being oppressed, but is being rewarded well enouhg to be able to send his/her kids to convents.

Mandatory Voting cards

[fven]

They propose to make having voting cards mandatory even if all voters do not get the cards. This could be a cause for concern if there are hassles getting the cards. I would like to know the reason only 65% of voters have a card. Is there any way to get a card on the day or is there a cutoff?

Voting is voluntary in India (source: Subas Pani, Deputy Election Commissioner, Election Commission of India, subaspani(a)eci.gov.in) so I guess it doesn't matter much.

They have only 1500 voters at each polling station so vote rigging is kind of limited in effect (there are always ways and means I realise).

I'm interested to see how this goes for them.

Re:Mandatory Voting cards

[Ancil]

They have only 1500 voters at each polling station so vote rigging is kind of limited in effect

This is where you'll really see some benefite from electronig voting. In the old days, what with paper ballots and locked boxes scattered to the four winds, it was a lot of work to steal a national office. Imagine the convenience of doing it online!

Re:Mandatory Voting cards

[popeyethesailor]

This issue was taken to court . The verdict was that in the absence of a voting card, there are 18 other types of documents which could be used to prove one's identity.(Passport,driving license etc).

As for why only 65% of population got the cards, I would be surprised if the number was that high.

Vote rigging was brought down mostly due to the efforts of one of the previous election commissioners. Drastic changes were brought in, such as limiting electoral expenditure, prohibiting canvassing 3 days before the election and a number of others.

However such things still happen; low literacy rates, limited awareness ,inherent casteist beliefs, widespread corruption are not easy to wipe away.

but seems just a bit dangerous?

[Anonymous Coward]

.. think the conventional way is safe?...you dont know a guy named George W.. do you?

Re:but seems just a bit dangerous?

[???]

Would you call the balloting system(s) in the United States conventional? Is a Supreme Court split on party lines the proper electorate?

Re:but seems just a bit dangerous?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because your unemployed buddy Al couldn't get enough votes to even win his OWN STATE much less the rest of the country is no reason to be bitter.

Re:Voting Authentication using MyKad"s PKI

[sebol]

In the "old days", indians who voted would have their fingers marked with a special dye that would take 2 weeks to disappear. :)

This can be done with Malaysian IC "MyKad" with PKI.
assume the PKI inside MyKad become the authenticifation for voting. ppl with faked IC cant vote.

there are several problem.
1. PKI only available in MyKad newer than Oct 2002.
2. I dont have MyKad yet, (waiting until it become mature) heh

Re:*Shakes head* at *advanced societies*

[The Bungi]

I guess any criticism of your country is considered some terrible insult and you must lash out and take offense at the email service I use for throw away addresses.

Thanks for the insight.

OK Crackers

[Timesprout]

Vote repeatedly for me and I promise do something about all the outsourcing from Europe and the US Timesprout Soon to be Leader of India

special dye

[Anonymous Coward]

but what's better?

(a) special dye that won't come off for two weeks

or

(b) sex with a mare

Re:special dye

[Anonymous Coward]

Go for sex with a mare. The dye thing can wait!!

Re:special dye

[Anonymous Coward]

sex with a mare

No thanks, I have enought night-mares as it is, reading some of these posts.

Outsourced voting system?

[Anonymous Coward]

Will India outsource the development of their voting system to some of those (R)USA voting machine 'companies'?!

Outright Discrimination.

[Pavan_Gupta]

Oddly enough, I'm Indian, so don't take my opinion as too slanted.

Anyhow, let me start by saying that this is a very thrilling next step in India's experiment with democracy. It'll be awesome to see the elections being conducted with minimal fraud (hopefully combated with the ID cards), but I see a very serious problem.

0.75 USD is the equivalent of about Rs. 30, and in a country where the Rs. 30 can buy a gourmet meal for 5 (well, I'm exagerating, but please try to see my point), it strikes me as quite a price for a vote. See, voting is no longer something that anyone can do, in fact, it's a form of discrimination. If the government can't teach the masses, and then they charge a ridiculous amount of money to get a ID card for an election, they're essentially telling the poorer (and likely less intelligent people) that they can't vote.

We're too quick to forget what happened when the United States decided that it was time for competency tests, and black people were discriminated against.. because comptency was directly in line with socioeconomic status. This is unfair to the poor people. It's a sad day in India when these 800,000 machines (which will hardly service 1,000,000,000 people) are spread through India.

Obviously it's nice to see voting become fast and easy .. more accuracy and probably less corruption, but the poor people need in. It's their country too.

I'm not crying about the 0.75 USD, I'm just saying that it's a form of discrimination. They shouldn't be required to have these ID cards, which they will be required to have. Even if it's not a requirement, it'll be a major turn off to voting.

Well, there's my 0.75 USD.

Re:Outright Discrimination.

[MaximusTheGreat]

I will try to remove some misunderstanding about the voter's ID card and the voting machine --

1) The cost of Voter's ID card is paid by the govt. Individual voters do not pay anything. I just had to go to a temporary office in my locality to get photographed and pick it up in about 10 minutes. So, the 0.75 USD discrimination problem that you point out is non-existent.

2) The voting machines simply record the number of votes for each candidate, and no record is created about who voted for whom

3) Election commision in India is an independent constitutional body and has been know to re-conduct the elections in voting areas with slightest hint of fraud.

4) Each voting booth in India is allowed to have has one representative from each candidate to ensure that the other candidate does not tryto defraud the voter. This is not perfect but ensures that the fraud when it happens does not skew the result too much.

5) The voting machines contain no OS. The code is in assembly in tamper proof chips, making it very hard to hack

6) The voting machines are not linked together over a network. This implies that to tally votes the machine has to be taken to a central station where again representatives from each candidate ensure that no wholscale fraud takes place.

Re:Outright Discrimination.

[alphakappa]

all your arguments are valid, but your main point is flawed - people do not have to pay for the card - the card is free and the government spends $ 0.75 (or whatever is the amount) for the card. I was in India when my family and I got the card, so I know for a fact that it is free. There are other problems though - for a population of such magnitude, logistics is the biggest troublemaker. People sometimes get wrong cards or cards with wrong information, which then have to be changed, which is a huge hassle both for the public and the people who manage the system. However, I believe that within a few years, after one election with these mandatory cards, things will stabilize and the logistics problem will be minimized. From a technology point of view, it's a great effort since the entire system from the photography set (for the id cards) to the software is indegenous and is a great testbed for technology since things are being applied at such a massive scale.

Re:Outright Discrimination.

[arvindn]

Hi, I'm Indian too, and I don't think I agree with you:

in a country where the Rs. 30 can buy a gourmet meal for 5 (well, I'm exagerating, but please try to see my point), it strikes me as quite a price for a vote

I don't think the voter is required to pay for the card. The cost is Rs. 30 to the government. But even if we assume that the voter has to pay:

One only has to get a voter ID card once in a lifetime, not for each election. So the cost gets amortized.

Besides, if someone values their vote at less than a meal or two (not 5, your pulling that out of your ass), then they're probably voting because someone paid them Rs 10 to do so. If there's a slight cost to vote, then it will ensure that anyone who votes will have some motivation to vote and a reason for choosing one candidate over the other. That way I'd say its a good thing.

Third, the scheme has just been introduced; I'm sure the price will go down in the future.

Fourth, consider the total cost savings for the country in throwing away ballot papers; it will probably work out to more than Rs 30. per voter.

It's a sad day in India when these 800,000 machines (which will hardly service 1,000,000,000 people) are spread through India.

1e9 people, but only 3e8 are voters, and less than half of them actually turn up. So were talking about 200 people per machine. I don't see the problem. And no, it won't be a sad day, it'll be a day to celebrate.

Re:Outright Discrimination.

[Insipid Trunculance]

You seem to be an uninformed idiot. 1.30 rupees wont buy you a meal for ONE even from a Street vendor.Thjst's from Personal experience. 2.The cost for the ID cards is covered by the government.repeat after me: by the government. which is considerably cheaper than printing ballot papers for 900 plus candidates. 3.what makes you think 800,000 machines are not enough for the electorate of india to vote?done any thinking abt it?wanna show us your calculations?maybe the election commission have decided these figures because of their considerable expertise in conduting elections for the last 50 years. 4.BTW the electorate of no country is 100% of its population.Its more likely 600,000,000 in case of india. 5.What is this discrimination you are talking about?do you have any idea what's happening or you just decided this was what was going on.IIRC its the Backward classes in India which are the biggest powerblock in India,who decide who gets to form the govt. In future perhaps you would prefer to get your facts right before airing them all over.Remember just because you think so isnt going to make it so.

Re:Outright Discrimination.

[vu2lid]

If the government can't teach the masses, and then they charge a ridiculous amount of money to get a ID card for an election, they're essentially telling the poorer (and likely less intelligent people) that they can't vote.

You are ignorant about the system - individual voters won't have to pay anything from their pockets - I got my Indian Voter's ID card sometime back - I know this (you can always argue that ultimately this comes from Taxes - but then those from the low income group will be outside the Tax system anyway)

Parent posting is considered "Insightful" - how odd ! Tells a lot about the quality of modeation.

Re:Outright Discrimination.

[???]

"2) The voting machines simply record the number of votes for each candidate, and no record is created about who voted for whom"

You clearly have absolutely no understanding of electoral mechanics, or the means that can be used to trace and/or track voters. Besides which... How do you know what information the machine keeps? Have you examined its code? Its components?

"3) Election commision in India is an independent constitutional body and has been know to re-conduct the elections in voting areas with slightest hint of fraud."

All of the independance in the world isn't going to help them discover the hints of fraud in the first place. Electronic voting machines and centralized counting allow greater opportunity for fraud to go on transparently and undetectably.

"4) Each voting booth in India is allowed to have has one representative from each candidate to ensure that the other candidate does not tryto defraud the voter. This is not perfect but ensures that the fraud when it happens does not skew the result too much."

The observer role becomes utterly meaningless in a DRE election, because the real mechanics of such an election cannot be directly observed by humans. The artifact of voting cannot be observed by observers or voters, as it can in a paper election. The protection against fraud provided by observers with opposed goals in a paper election does not necessarily extend to a DRE election.

"5) The voting machines contain no OS. The code is in assembly in tamper proof chips, making it very hard to hack"

Okay, so you have no understanding of technology as well. If they are digital machines, they need an OS. They need code to interpret user input and to provide appropriate user feedback. That code may be in tamper ressistant chips, but there is no such thing as tamper proof chips. All of the tamper restistance in the world is for naught if there is a software error or back door. (Presumably you believe that assembly provides automatic bounds checking on buffers? How exactly does assembly magically protect you against bugs and back doors?)

"6) The voting machines are not linked together over a network. This implies that to tally votes the machine has to be taken to a central station where again representatives from each candidate ensure that no wholscale fraud takes place."

Centralized counting decreases reliability and increases opportunity for fraud. The chain of custody of a machine, disk, flash chip, memory cartridge, other storage device cannot be readily established, and fraud, theft or damage can occur en route between the polling station and the central counting facility. If such things occur, there is _no_ fallback error-handling in the process. There is no ready way of detecting such occurrences, much less fixing them.

Re:Outright Discrimination.

[???]

"If there's a slight cost to vote, then it will ensure that anyone who votes will have some motivation to vote and a reason for choosing one candidate over the other. That way I'd say its a good thing. "

Google for "Jim Crow" "poll tax"

Re:Outright Discrimination.

[tompoe]

I hope you realize that, unless the voter has a paper printout of their ballot, and places it in a box to be counted, there is absolutely no way to detect fraud. http://www.blackboxvoting.org for starters. I think EFF http://www.eff.org has some info as well.

Why do you think Bush and Gang are so excited about the 2004 elections? The Help America Vote Act is his free ticket. Who's free ticket is India's?

Re:Outright Discrimination.

[Anonymous Coward]

So err... would you like to provide your credentials?

As far as I know (I am not an Electrical Engineer, but my brother is), it is possible to make hardware and software that is reliable enough to use in the electoral process..... atleast a whole lot more reliable than the conventional system which has horribly failed in India. Do you have a better idea of carrying out fraud free elections? Please enlighten us.

Re:Outright Discrimination.

[Anonymous Coward]

It has not been mathematically proven electronic voting is secure. If you'd like to produce such a paper I'd like to see it because if it existed we'd all be voting from our desktops by now.

Quite simply you are dead wrong. This electronic system can be exploited like any other and possibly in more horrible ways than any other. It is merely an expensive replacement for an existing broken system.

Umm no actually

[quinkin]

Engage Nit Pick

Not to say that this doesn't occur in India, but the article you refer to is in Islamabad - the capital of Pakistan.

Disengage Nit Pick

Q.

Which box and OS??

[losttoy]

Anyone know what kind of software and OS these e-voting boxes use?

Re:Which box and OS??

[watzinaneihm]

They are using two kinds of voting machine, One from ECIL and another from BEL, both government owned companies(from the article).
A bit of googling bought their sites up. ECIL webpage is pretty low on details, but BEL gives some info here.
Apparently no OS is used, they have coded assembly right into the chips, so virtually tamper proof.

Re:Which box and OS??

[losttoy]

Ok!! This is an older story from March'2001.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010312/main4.ht m

How to tamper with voting machines!
Prabhjot Singh
Tribune News Service
Chandigarh, March 11
Can electronic voting machines (EVMs) be tampered with?


"Yes", says Mr Amarinder Singh, president, Punjab Pradesh Congress Committee, supporting his assertion by giving a demonstration of how an EVM with a cleverly programmed chip installed in it can transfer votes polled by one candidate to another leaving no remnants of the original voting pattern.

"Convinced that these EVMs can be manipulated, we are going to make a presentation to the Chief Election Commissioner, Dr Manohar Singh Gill, in New Delhi next week and request him to revert to the original system of voting using ballot papers. If the commission does not listen to us, we will have no choice but to knock at the door of the judiciary to get EVMs out of the elections," asserts Mr Amarinder Singh.

Capt Amarinder Singh demonstrates how a "fudged electronic voting machine" works. -- A Tribune photo by Parvesh Chauhan

Mr Amarinder Singh carries a set of EVMs, including the control unit, which during elections remains with the presiding officer of a polling station, and gives a "demonstration of how the programmed chip transfers the votes of one candidate to another".

"We got suspicious about what we call 'sophisticated booth capturing' when we found that there was 129 per cent increase in the votebank of Akalis at Nawanshahr, 100 per cent at Sunam and now 65 per cent at Majitha. The ruling party did well wherever EVMs were used while at other places, we did well. This we did by analysing all elections in the state since 1997," says the PPCC chief, admitting that "my wife and Mr Jagmeet Singh Brar were elected to the Lok Sabha from constituencies where EVMs were used. But till that time, for the ruling Akali Dal, EVMs were something new and unique.

"But once they put their electronics experts on the job, they could immediately find a solution. Whatever the Election Commission says about EVMs is not true. The mother boards, after being removed from the EVMs, do not crash but work perfectly after being soldered back in the machine. Similarly, wave welding, which the Election Commission maintains is not available in India, is very much available at various places in the country," asserts the Punjab Congress chief.

"We put our hardware and software experts on the job. They not only came out with different programmed chips but also revealed how these EVMs had been condemned the world over. Many countries, including Germany, France and the UK, had gone back to the conventional ballot paper polling by discarding the EVMs," he said before giving a demonstration of how an EVM with a programmed chip installed in it "works wonders".

"A programmed chip will not cost much. It is both timed and programmed to convert the votes polled by one candidate to those of another. It is only the final position that will remain on the hardchip or all three memories, thus leaving no scope for anyone to find out the original pattern of voting," he says during the demonstration. "Seventeen votes are cast of which three go to candidate number 1, one each to candidates number two and three, 11 to candidate number 5 and one to candidate number 7. And after a while, when the votes are counted, the machine gives 13 votes to candidate number 1 and four to candidate number 2 and nothing to the rest.

"So each machine can be programmed to transfer, say, every third vote polled by the Congress to the Shiromani Akali Dal. In the Chamunda Devi area, which is a traditional Congress stronghold, our candidate lost during the recent Majitha Assembly byelection. This strengthens our conviction that EVMs were programmed.

"Let bygone be bygone. We do not want this 'sophisticated booth-capturing' to continue anymore. We do not want EVMs but want that in all future el

Re:Which box and OS??

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. Smart thinking.

Re:Which box and OS??

[Anonymous Coward]

thats a caste that u find your way into :)....feels good to know that we are praised as well!

A major issue

[unmadindu]

A major problem with these new voting machines is that they do not allow you to cancel your votes without letting others know. If you want to cancel your vote (in case if you don't like any of the candidates), you will have to fill up a form and submit it to the officer in charge. During the ballot era - you could put the mark beside two or more candidates, and your vote would get cancelled automatically. Of course, one can abstain from voting altogether, but in that case, chances are that the local politician's pet goons would cats the vote in your name :-).

How does electronic voting equal e-voting

[Anonymous Coward]

From what I gathered from this article, they're using electronic balloting machines - or am I missing something?

Re:How does electronic voting equal e-voting

[kfg]

You are missing the fact that the "e" stands for electronic, not network.

Your are, no doubt, mislead by the concept of e-mail which, by its nature, is networked, but there's nothing in "e" which implies Internet or any other form of networking.

For instance, my articles for print publication are written in purely electronic digital form. They are "e" documents, as opposed to dead tree documents, even if they never see a network.

KFG

Re:Outright Discrimination.?

[jkrise]

Again.. you seem to have forgotten to factor vote-bank politics. The local 'leader' ensures all citizens in his area, especially the poor, get the card. So, there's your answer to discrimination.

Secondly, I now shifted my residence about 30 km (20 miles..) from the city and lots of poor 'caste' people live nearby. ALL of them have got the cards sponsored by the 'area chief', who actually does a lot of good work. He's built us a good concrete road, he's doing desilting of a big lake nearby (12 acres - $ 100,000) and lots of other developmental work. 75 cents a card for 10,000 people isn't a big deal.

-

EVMs prevent fraud

[vishakh]

Elections in India are generally marvellous exercises in democracy. In national elections, hundreds of millions of people of many different kinds cast their votes and elect their representatives. Many people doubted whether democracy would flourish in India, but they are proved wrong after every election. However, the fact still remains that there are still a lot of irregularities in the electoral process.

The bulk of the states have generally free and fair elections. The poorest states, especially those in the North, do not. There, the local strongmen actively use force to swing voted to their side and in a lot of constituencies it is not the most popular candidate who wins, but the most popular. In the poorest of the poor states, this fraud happens on a very large scale.

Today, vote rigging is a very simple exercise. All you have to do is get a bunch of very strong men with weapons of some kind and visit each polling station one by one, threaten the officers there and stamp the ballot papers in your favor. The more organized efforts include printing fake ballot papers and having them counted.

Now that EVMs have been introduced, the potential for localized fraud will be several restricted in some ways. Fake ballot papers cannot be printed, votes cannot be changed or removed. However, the local strong men and criminalized parties will still be around. They will still be able to threaten/cajole/buy people and subvert the democratic process. These problems are more systemic and will solve themselves with the passage of time.

Centralized election fraud is a very different matter. On paper, it looks like EVMs can take care of it. The results of "electronic" elections can be easily verified repeatedly and it should be somewhat difficult to systematically rig EVMS. I'm sure that people will find some way of manipulating EVMs, but it shouldn't knew the results much.

Finally, EVMs have delivered a lot of tangible results in India already. For example, results have been tabulated almost instantly, considerably shortening the political and economic uncertainty associated with elections. They definitely help democracy at every level in India.

Re:EVMs prevent fraud

[khuber]

Elections in India are generally marvellous exercises in democracy.

The Indian government is a marvellous exercise in widespread corruption and bribery. That is not democracy!

Re:EVMs prevent fraud

[vishakh]

If you think this is bad, try keeping a country of that size with so many conflicting parts together while still retaining a measure of progress, unity and a large degree of individual liberty.

I don't think the system there is perfect or nearly as good as it should be. It must be admitted that in some twisted, obtuse way, today's Indian state is an expression of the people's will.

Widespread corruption and bribery are not incompatible with democracy.

Re:EVMs prevent fraud

[Gumshoe]

Widespread corruption and bribery are not incompatible with democracy.

I do hope you're joking. How can a system that disallows men and women their own vote be described as a democracy?

Re:EVMs prevent fraud

[vishakh]

The system doesn't actively disallow people their vote. This is why so many people are able to legitimately express themselves. As I said, the system isn't perfect and it needs mending- but it works to an amazing extent.

Re:EVMs prevent fraud

[khuber]

Yeah, I think we're on the same page visakh. I think some great things are happening in India.

However it will take much more effort and patience for them to truly be free. I just don't want people to think, hey India has EVMs and now they are fully modern. There is still rampant poverty, the unofficial caste system, a large population, and other issues to deal with.

Re:Outright Discrimination - Absolutely.

[Pavan_Gupta]

You've neglected to realize that money can't just be "created" by the "area chief." Money has to be brought up from somewhere, through increased production, or more likely something like increased taxes.

It will cost the average indian more money, and it'll cost them 0.75 USD per person. Multiply that by 1 billion, and you have a pretty expensive cost (750 million USD) for a nation that has the second largest AIDs problem on earth, the worst starvation problem on earth, and a good set of pretty dire problems amongst other things.

This may very well not be the time or place to test some new technologically advanced system for voting. The time will come when India will be able to afford to spend on things like this, but I think that she can wait on that this nationalistic pride boost.

Security risks

[Advocadus Diaboli]

I suggest that the Indian government reads this study (PDF) about the security of EVMs first and then thinks if they really want to have it.

Re:Voting Authentication using MyKad"s PKI

[szap]

Any technical info on the PKI implementation in MyKad? Earn some karma.

And oh, <aol>me, too!</aol> on the "I don't have MyKad yet" part.

Background for non-Malaysians: "IC" = short for Id. card in Malaysia. MyKad is the new Malaysian identity card with an embedded chip. Looks exactly like a new ATM card. Never could find enough detailed info on them to trust them, but it's supposed able to handle electronic cash, your identification details in electronic forms, PKI, etc. Would be rather hard to forge.

Particularly worrying is using PKI in conjunction to voting. Unless done right, it's very easy to lose privacy -- authentication and anonimity are two contradictory to each other. It's possible (I've read Schneier's books), but it's very hard and troublesome.

Hopefully pakistan Copies

[saneax]

Pakistan has a long standing of Building weapons and testing them soon after Indians do so, Why Not they take a leaf out of this... Well Maybe, they will have a hacked Electronic Voting System by The Indians, They Fear!

Not exactly the same

[toofanx]

This is not quite like e-voting - I don't think there is any computer involved (except in the very basic sense of the term). I got this FAQ from the Election Comission's website. Apparently, there has been a phased approach towards the use of electronic voting machines, for some time now.

I would still worry about ballot rigging, etc. I can still see ways in which such things can be manipulated. Other than ballot rigging, my other fear would be privacy. Maybe you could find ways to deduce who voted for which candidate.

Re:Outright Discrimination - Absolutely.

[jkrise]

I didn't believe it was possible for an Indian to be more clueless than others, on Indian matters - thanks for teaching me.

If Indians paid less for crappy proprietary s/w, started beleiving in their strengths and stopped listening to ' defer technologically advanced' suggestions, they'd prosper faster.

AIDS is more of a social problem than a pathological one, atleast in India. Indians pay more money to Microsoft, than AIDS drugs every year. Addiction to MSware is tougher to cure than Affliction with AIDS.

And so on... please, stop trolling and continue with whatever you're doing right now. It's better if you use your energies to make the US a better place, than send you 2 cent suggestions to improve your native land, from remote. There are better qualified natives to take care of that.

-

Very simply put

[harlemjoe]

India is a country where elections come out fair only because of our always upright election commission and because they are so rigged.

It makes a curious kind of sense -- local politicians in rural areas often pay constituents to vote -- but each constituency (ballot box, rather) is just 1500-odd votes, and hence dwarfed by the size of the country. Also, the worst offenders are usually caught by the election commission, setting examples for the rest.

The other, more dangerous form of rigging elections, is when influential politicians inflate the electoral roll and have people vote multiple times. This happens largely in the metros, because in constituencies with huge electoral rolls and many migrant labourers, fake names are more likely to go unnoticed. The election commission tries to regulate this as much as is possible, but how do you challenge the identity of a man (or woman) who possesses no identification beyond a birth certificate? Especially when you consider migrant labourers who work in big cities, and who often have nothing but names to confirm their identities.

It is to redress this second form of rigging that voter id cards were introduced. As of now they have no other uses beyond identification for voting, and the government has no plans to make them so.

So put it all in perspective, and it makes sense. I am a libertarian by nature, but I understand the bind the election commission is in.

Re:Very simply put

[evilquaker]

It is to redress this second form of rigging that voter id cards were introduced. As of now they have no other uses beyond identification for voting, and the government has no plans to make them so.

The same was true of Social Security #'s in the US back when they were introduced. In fact, AFAIK, your SS# still isn't a legal form of identification, and the government has very strict rules about when government agencies can even ask for it. Private industry isn't bound by these regulations, though, and that's the problem.

Re:Voting Authentication using MyKad"s PKI

[sebol]

Any technical info on the PKI implementation in MyKad? Earn some karma


I was searching about MyKad's PKI
and found this

http://www.mykeymykad.com.my/

but it redirect my browser (Mozilla) to
https://www.mykeymykad.com.my/error.php?errCode=no nIE

err please complain to ca-support@msctrustgate.com

Stop Me if you've heard this one....

[alamandrax]

... or if its already been posted.

Rival parties came up with some ingenious methods to beat these "ingenious"....oh sorry, "indeginous" machines(this was done in the previous polls... which were in 2001 I guess). Let's take, for example, the two parties I am interested in, The Congress (I) and the BJP. Now, local Congress leaders (hypothetical case), campaigning in villages, demonstrated the EVMs for public awareness purposes. The villagers were told the "correct" procedure for voting.

"To vote for the party of your choice, please press the button that is placed against the symbol for the Congress(I). This will turn your voting machine on! Now, please press the button against the party of your choice."

There was a few other ideas. Anyone else heard of them?

Re:Stop Me if you've heard this one....

[thejackol]

Contrary to popular belief, people who live in rural areas aren't really that dumb. Local leaders usually are, and would think of such an idea as ingenious. It rarely works.

Paper Trail

[Anonymous Coward]

Do these systems leave some kind of paper trail which the voter can visually verify?

The huge disadvantage with paperless voting is that the voter has to trust that the button he pushed is the vote that was registered. Without some sort of person readable paper trail the voter cannot verify his vote and more importantly there is no way to audit the votes after the fact.

Without some sort of trail it is impossible to be sure that the vote is correct and can not be tampered with (or simply changed by a software bug).

This is the big bone of contention in many American locations looking to adopt e-voting.

One of many articles on the subject Quick form required

PS: I look really cool on my Voter's card

[alamandrax]

I actually do. Didn't shave that day.

Re:PS: I look really cool on my Voter's card

[Anonymous Coward]

That is quite uninteresting. On a similar note, my sock don't match today.

PARENT IS A GOATSE.CX LINK

[PARENT IS A GOATSE.C]

Do not click on any of the links! They will redirect you to a site with some guy pulling his anus apart.

I repeat, do not click!

Re:PARENT IS A GOATSE.CX LINK

[Gyan]

No, it's not. Visit without fear.

PARENT IS A GOATSE.CX LINK

[PARENT IS A GOATSE.C]

It is a PDF version of the goatse.cx guy. DO NOT CLICK!!

Oh puleese

[autopr0n]

I know people lay on the OSS propaganda thick around here, but to say india has AIDS because they buy microsoft crap? What the fuck ever.

Blackboxvoting

[Anonymous Coward]

For all the electronic voting information you'll need.

They used electronic voting before 1952??

[arvindn]

it will be the first time a Lok Sabha (central parliament) election will be held in the country since 1952 without the use of ballot papers

Do you mean they used EVMs before 1952??

Just joking.

Reminds me of another joke -

Q. What did they use in Romania before they used candles?
A. Electricity.

Re:They used electronic voting before 1952??

[thejackol]

Hmmm... Here is history in brief:

1947 is when India got it's Independence

1950 is when India became a Republic

1952 is when India's first general elections were conducted. The Congress won, and came to power.

Re:They used electronic voting before 1952??

[arvindn]

Yeah I know, I'm Indian :-)

Re:Voting Authentication using MyKad"s PKI

[szap]

Oh dear, no wonder MSC Trustgate rang a bell:

MSC Trustgate fires its chief scientist after uncovering fraudulent claims

Be afraid, be very, very afraid. Them implementing PKI for an entire country?

Need for Electronic voting in India.....

[system_rudra]

Conducting an election for 1 billion people is no easy task,

the various costs that the government will incurr on a traditional paper based voting system

i) Printing of the ballot paper (paper on which the vote is marked), this takes about 60-70 % of the cost of election thats coz because the crieteria for being a candidate are
a) the person must be above 24
b) the deposit was earlier INR 1000 to 2000 odd thats about $25 - $50 max.

then the no of candiates used to be around 50, in some places it had touched 100, think of printing a paper with 100 candiates name on it and a few million copies of it, u get the point....

ii) logistics of movement of ballot boxes and personell and the security along with it and personnel payements about 20 - 25 %

iii) misc 5% like the security ink, etc

the initial cost of acquring electronic voting machines are a bit high, but since the same machines can be used for all public elections, the long term benifits are cumulative and it is clearly visible

the electronic voting machines help in reducing the money spent on ballot paper by a minimum of 50% which can be used for other development purposes

this system was tested in earlier elections and everyone is satisfied with this system as this reduces the number of double voting (like the stamp is put for two or more candidates) an other voting anomilies.....

Need for Electronic voting in India....

[system_rudra]

Conducting an election for 1 billion people is no easy task, the various costs that the government will incurr on a traditional paper based voting system i) Printing of the ballot paper (paper on which the vote is marked), this takes about 60-70 % of the cost of election thats coz because the crieteria for being a candidate are a) the person must be above 24 b) the deposit was earlier INR 1000 to 2000 odd thats about $25 - $50 max. then the no of candiates used to be around 50, in some places it had touched 100, think of printing a paper with 100 candiates name on it and a few million copies of it, u get the point.... ii) logistics of movement of ballot boxes and personell and the security along with it and personnel payements about 20 - 25 % iii) misc 5% like the security ink, etc the initial cost of acquring electronic voting machines are a bit high, but since the same machines can be used for all public elections, the long term benifits are cumulative and it is clearly visible the electronic voting machines help in reducing the money spent on ballot paper by a minimum of 50% which can be used for other development purposes this system was tested in earlier elections and everyone is satisfied with this system as this reduces the number of double voting (like the stamp is put for two or more candidates) an other voting anomilies.....

So what?

[Indio_do_Xingu]

Sometimes I don't know what the hell happens in Slashdot: Indians just LOVE to say: "In India we have this, while in US you don't, suckers!" or something the like...Sleeeeshh..... Just one side note: I'm Brazilian, and in Brazil we have had electronic vote for a long time. So, don't run and claim that Indian crap...I'm sick of this shit.

Re:So what?

[anandcp]

You are from Brazil? BRAZIL??? Ha ha ha ha..... LOL. The only good thing you guys can make is Coffee... Now only if you look at us (indians) and learn a few good things.... BRAZIL??? ha ha ha ha...

Re:So what?

[Indio_do_Xingu]

Oh, I also forgot to say, Slashdot is infested with Indians... Got Milk, Kid?

Re:So what?

[anandcp]

Pity Brazil still remains a land of Soccer, Samba, & Coffee. Slashdot is *infested* with Indians because we are IT Capital of the world. With an economy chugging at 4.3% growth and a +tive BoP siutation with HUGE foreign reserves (last known $88 billion) pretty soon we will race ahead of so-called super-economies of Latin A. We have a 5,000 year old wisdom to guide us. We were building monuments and drainage systems and trading over seas long before others came down from trees.

Re:So what?

[Indio_do_Xingu]

Sorry to disappoint you pal, but only 7.5% of Brazil's economy comes from agriculture. You can check it by yourself: http://www.receita.fazenda.gov.br/Principal/Ingles /SistemaTributarioBR/BrazilianTaxSystem/basicaspec ts.htm Besides, Brazil is in a better economical position than India: http://www.cafod.org.uk/policy/richest200.shtml And we have lots to spare and a lot of room to grow, since we are a huge country, and have huge reserves of everything. And I'm not counting the other countries in LA (Oh, yeah, We don't hate each other over here...forgot that...sorry!) . What about India... Wanna buy some food? IT capital o f the World? Why not? Put that 1B people to code for us, boy... ;)

Re:So what?

[CrisDias]

And you smell like pee and poo. And my father can kick your father's ass in a second.

In other words, just in case you don't get it: people... grow up, OK?

Re:So what?

[HexaHurri]

Get a life my friend.

My compatriot here has answered a bit immaturedly to your post.Actually, Brazil is a really respected and growing economy like ours. I think both of our countries face very similar problems related to poverty and development.

However, I guess the Brazilian government needs to do more in promoting IT and English education in their country if they want to compete with India in times to come. We are too many now and we have a worldwide diaspora. Our hearts arent infested with hatred or anxiety. Our country was founded on the principles of democracy and respect. We are the harbingers of Gandhi's peaceful principles combined with age-old sagely wisdom. In short - We can kick anyone's ass. But so can you guys..if you want to. But too bad there are too many of us, and we're working too hard. By the way, the chinese are kicking both our asses when it comes to manufacturing. And the way to compete with them is not to cry fowl about it - It's plain and simple hard work like the old times ! It's just capitalism .. making everyone richer ! So dont worry about it and try to convince the US govt to raise H1-B caps for Brazilian programmers.Get working mate and dont lurk around on slashdot this long !

Best wishes from France,
Hex@Hurri

Re:So what?

[The Cydonian]

Obviously, you guys need better spin doctors. :-)

Seriously though, there's a lot of hype about Indian tech, some of it is plain stupid. You're right; doesn't help one bit by the fact that most people here are geeks, and geeks by nature are baggard about themselves.

Indeed, if we go all electronic, it's an Indian, or at the best, a sociological achievement; the world's largest administrative exercise has finally discovered 20 year old technology. Nothing more, nothing less.

(I'm Indian, btw)

Re:So what?

[fran_m87yahoo.com.br]

at least we have here some good sense. Anand, ur topics PLAIN SUCK

Re:So what?

[alphakappa]

anand... don't be a dumb fuck! as an indian I am offended that you are trying to insult someone's country using india as a comparison. Grow up!

Voter identity card

[awol]

Look, the only thing wrong with voter identity cards is if they are made "difficult" to get. Making access to the right to vote hard is the way that various immoral gerrymnaders were maintained, in particular the "literacy" test for voter eligability is a classic example of how to stop a sector of the electorate from voting, just make the application to get on the electoral role a process that required a literacy test (all for the most logical of reasons of course! Like to ensure that the elector can understand the ballot).

Requiring proof of identity is not a problem, and a card is a pretty reasonable way of doing it, the dye approach is equally reasonable. In Australia, by way of contrast, the whole problem of fraud is largely avoided by making the voting process mandatory (it aint completely avoided but anomalies are much easier to detect). One is registered at a specific location for voting and one is expected to vote at that location (elections are on Saturdays) your name is checked off and clearly if you get there and your name is already checked off then there is a problem. There is a mechanism for absentee and postal ballots for those who are away, but these numbers are few and indeed for many electorates these votes are not relevant for the outcome. Clearly this process would be 50 times larger in india, but that is probable still manageable and there is a strong tradition of voting so making it compulsory shouldn't be impossible. Then the identity fraud problem really goes away (other more overt forms of fraud remain however :-)

No.

[The Cydonian]

As someone who is studying technology deployment in India, I disagree.

Back in India, we face the same problems as any other democracy; heck, I'll argue that we face more lobbyists and well-entrenched groups than you Americans do. The ongoing 'debate' over the tax reform is a perfect example; the central government has been trying to move all the 25 states into a uniform VAT zone for the last 8 or so years without any succcess. Grapevine has it that a solution is possible only in 2005, well after the next round of general elections. We are, after all, one-sixth of all humanity; there's bound to be someone somewhere who doesn't like something for some reason.

The electronic voting machines also had significant problems in deployment; if I remember correctly, they were developed way back in the 80's itself, at the (government-owned) Electronic Corporation of India Ltd (the products webpage doesn't mention voting machines, so I could be wrong on the company) There were just too many groups resisting technology; as followers of Indian politics will note, elections in the 80's and 90's were invariably accompanied by booth-capturing, rigging and voter impersonation. Goondas (that's Indian English for the American 'rowdy') patronised by political parties would often take over polling booths, and stuff ballot papers in them. If you really wanted to vote on Election Day, you'd want to vote early in the day itself; not only to avoid the crowd, and violence if any, but also because someone else would have already voted under your name. And then, there'd be those political clashes, electoral violence, bomb blasts... an endless tyranny making a mockery of our constitutional values.

Obviously, the situation needed some strong action and, as I recall, the then Election Commissioner, Mr TN Seshan (who was and still is a sort of middle-class Indian hero), strongly asserted his Commission's independence from the government de jour, by the following measures:-

a)Paramilitary Forces:-
Not many Indians realise this, but elections in India see the world's largest peacetime movement of troops. All elections these days, unless they are the sub-province-level Panchayat elections, are actually conducted by the federal paramilitary battalions, the Border Security Force (BSF), the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) etc, and not the state police, who report to the government of the day and, therefore, presumably are not to be trusted.[1]

b) Behavioural Changes:-
For a month or so before the actual elections exercise, the Commission enforces a so-called "Model Code of Conduct" on all political parties; among other things, the contestants can't promise soft bribes for their constituents. Compliance is entirely voluntary; the Commission can't, for instance, pull someone up for breaking the Code, but then, which contestant in his right mind would want to be caught on the wrong side of his constituents' ire?

This was certainly the case between 1991 and 1995/6, until elections were announced in the teeny-weeny state of Goa, bringing us to step (c), technology.

c) Technology:-
Only after the above two easy-sounding, but difficult-to-implement steps did the Election Commission turn to technology. Even there there has been significant backlash; as I recall, there were many states that were tardy in issuing voter ID's. And even in that, the voter ID's are technologically-minimal; they are basically laminated printouts of a voter's digital pic, his name, address, date of birth, and the EC's hologram.

The end result is a vastly improved electoral process. Booth capturing and rigging will now completely vanish, even if it's only because the goondas haven't as yet figured out how to crack the voting machine. And then, there are obvious questions as to the quality of the nincompoops we elect.

That, however, shouldn't d

Re:No.

[???]

"Booth capturing and rigging will now completely vanish"

Yeah. Rigging will vanish because it moves away from the thuggery and violence previously required, and toward the more sophisticated, genteel manipulation of electronics. The rigging just moves out of the public's eye.

Re:No.

[nukepapa]

Well said, Cydonian. You should send your write-up to Indian newspapers so everyone can read what you have to say. Most /. folks are too worked up currently about IBM moving jobs to India to turn their wary eyes on this topic. ;)

Re:No.

[The Cydonian]

Read the sentence completely. I said the goondas haven't figured out how to rig as yet. :-)

Why the rush?

[jason_kitcat]

This looks to me like another country trying to gain international attention by adopting a 'sign of modernity'. In other words those making the decision to adopt this have no idea of the electoral implications but want to be seen to be 'with it' and in touch with modern technology.

Electronic voting is extremely expensive, provides opportunities for massive fraud on scales never before seen and makes the voting system opaque to the voters, observers and even candidates. No country, especially not a developing one, can in good faith spend vast somes of money on questionable proprietary technology from mainly dodgy suppliers (guilty of fraud, bribery etc) when there are mouths to feed, hospitals to build and schools to fund.

I won't rehearse all the arguments, but check out our Learn section for more, or listen to me slug it out with the CEO of VoteHere at the Oxford debate recording here.

Re:Why the rush?

[Vedanti]

Just prejudices ... Voting machines are quite cheap ... made by a public sector company ...

Re:Why the rush?

[alphakappa]

well, actually it is not such a big news in india since they've been using EVMs for years now for state elections. All the election commission has said now is that in the next national elections EVMs will be the sole method. It's just a tiny piece of news and certainly no attention grabber there since EVMs are pretty common out there.

Re:Why the rush?

[raj2569]

No country, especially not a developing one, can in good faith spend vast somes of money on questionable proprietary technology from mainly dodgy suppliers

Dear jason

Do you have any idea about what is happening at ground? Just because it India is a developing country does it needs to be questionable proprietary technology from mainly dodgy supplier?

For your kind information, all these machines are manufactured by Govt owned company using Govt owned technology, and there has been extensive trials done before in various other smaller elections across the country.

Please, leave the brown people alone. We do not need any one to liberate us.

raj

Re:Why the rush?

[Anonymous Coward]

While he may be uninformed, there is not a hint of racism in his statements. You sir, are a jackass.

OMG: A real use for biometrics?

[jolshefsky]

So you want to make sure people can only vote once but you don't want to require that they have ID cards? How about biometrics?

You go to vote, get a retinal scan stored with your vote. If you vote more than once, [insert appropriate action here: {use the most recent vote | use only unchanged votes | throw away vote | some other action}].

The big security hole is fake retinas being inserted into the database. There's always a point of weakness in the security hierarchy where you might be able to slip in fake data. It's plausible to be able to detect fake retinal images, but that may not be possible. Of course, false data is the bane of any electronic voting device.

The good part, though, is that it allows people to vote anonymously and vote only once without being identified--as long as there's no database that correlates retinas to names, that is.

(Oh my god ... I didn't just use "OMG" did I?)

Re:OMG: A real use for biometrics?

[beta21]

You go to vote, get a retinal scan stored with your vote. If you vote more than once, [insert appropriate action here: {use the most recent vote | use only unchanged votes | throw away vote | some other action}].

You can't do this because it is a secret ballot. The votes just get recorded, there is no record of who voted for who (could lead to some uncomfortable situations).
No matter what there will always be some weakness. India has a seperate body to monitor elections and they have forced reelections in certain areas that hint fo fraud or mischief.

In other news

[cspenn]

Diebold industries supplied approximately 400,000 of the 800,000 machines in the Indian election. The company indicated that some machines were previously slated for the upcoming 2004 election and were sent to India for testing. Election monitors were confused, however, when votes cast for any Prime Minister candidate accidentally began to read George W. Bush, despite the fact that the US President is both ineligible and unqualified for the Indian PM position. Diebold promises to research the bug.

Only 800.000 machines?

[marcellomorsello]

800.000 voting machines seems me little to all country.
On 2002 election, Brazil used 350.000 voting machines for 115.271.811 voters identified with
ID cards with a voting period of 9 hours.
We have 329 voters per voting machine or
98,5 seconds to vote.
Indian population is ~5,7 times greater then
brazilian population (~175M), have similar dimensions and literacy.
6 times more people and 2,3 times machines,
seems to me that will be a long wait to vote.

Re:Only 800.000 machines?

[Anonymous Coward]

Indian elections are often staggered over several seperate days, so likely the machines would be used more than once over the course of the election.

Re:Only 800.000 machines?

[vu2lid]

Simple. Indian eletions are conducted in stages (the whole country will not go to polls on the same day). Often elections are spread across several weeks.Overall results are announced when everything is complete (so that results don't influence votting pattern in places where election is yet to take place).

Re:Only 800.000 machines?

[samirkseth]

All elections are not held on the same day. This is partly due to availability of paramilitary forces to police the election. This may account for the smaller number.

The US had this for awhile

[one9nine]

Florda had electronic voting machines but if you didn't press the button hard enough, the parity bit wouldn't be set. This was referred to as an "e-chad".

Its already used in India

[smzala]

1) Electronic machines are used earlier in elections in India.

2) It actually costs less to conduct voting on these machines.

3) It is safe.

And please, people, it's the largest democracy, if they are trying something new, give them a break.

The guy who posted the article need not have added the first sentence.

130 candidates

[berkeleyjunk]

I had the fun of voting for 1 of 130 candidates in a state election using a paper ballot. Was more fun ;-).

India Rules!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, India rules!
I'm gonna go there to marry a mare!

Re:Hey, guys,

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you mean slash%20dot.html ? Whitespaces are forbidden in URLs. Besides, there's that thing like for newlines, \n doesn't work in HTML. First learn stuff to get to the level of others, then express your opinion and people may start to listen.

Electronic elections...

[cesarcardoso]

It's great that people are turning to e-elections, especially in the Third World, where vote-rigging is more than rampant. Here in Brazil, we have it for some time. The system still has some big problems, but I doubt people will want to ever come back to pen-and-paper elections. I sincerely hope India goes the same route of banishing pen-and-paper elections.

Meanwhile, in Florida...

Re:Electronic elections...

[The Cydonian]

In Florida, butterflies vote you!

(Sorry, bad joke, mod me down if you wish :-D)

Ramayana and others

[Anonymous Coward]

Ramayana was written by a person who was from the lowest caste and is still respected by orthodox hindus.

Bhagavad Gita, accepted by most acharya's as the most imp knowledge, explains that a caste of a person is determided by Guna(his qualities) and karma(his work), it does not say janma(his birth).
In fact it goes on to say these four divisions Philosophers(also teachers and guides),Adminstrators(also warriors),Wealth creators(also farmers),Labourers are universally found.

Also, The Vedic scriptures do predict that this caste system will degrate in the age of kali, to what it is at present. (it has many other predictions like water will be sold,cheating religions(cults) will rise etc..).

I fully agree that as predicted the caste system at present in india is degrated, however that does not mean it was always like that.

For example let's say you have a sick patient and he is sufferimg, you do not kill him, however you give him medicine to cure him.

So just beacuse the caste system is not perfect in this age of kali, does not mean that you kill it, you kill the degraded metality of the people who use it in the wrong way and show them from their own scriptures where they are wrong.

But also that entails that you educate your self in the science of vedic religion.

Here is a place you can read from the bhagavad gita online and it is free

http://www.krsna.com/gita/

Re:Ramayana and others

[Vedanti]

Also, The Vedic scriptures do predict that this caste system will degrate in the age of kali, to what it is at present. (it has many other predictions like water will be sold,cheating religions(cults) will rise etc..). Vedic scriptures don't talk about caste system. Tell me which scripture and shich shloka-s predict this ... Don't confuse Purana-s with Veda-s.

Re:Ramayana and others

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed , the vedas are four and then there is the vedanta sutra.

Where i read this is the bahagavta purana, and also i hear that bhavisya purana speaks of the same. Why i say vedic is that all of them are compiled by Vyasadeva who is the compiler of all such literature including the vedanta sutra.

And yes, there is debate on whether puranas are vedic or not, but i intend not to go there.

The essence i can see is one is not the body but is brahman and in brahman one is liberated. Actually i asked this question in a christian forum once and they came with the same snswer that "we are not this body and the soul which is us meant to be with God"(ParaBrahman to me). Also the same is spoken about in islam and judaism.

On a side note, maybe you already know this Shipad Shankara has his bhasya on the vendanta sutra and that is very popular one,but that is not the only one. There are commentries by mdhavacharya, visnuswami, nimarkacharya and also baladeva vidyabhushana. If you are studing vedanta try and read them too.

This is a good site where i get my information
http://www.indiadivine.org/

Re:Ramayana and others

[Anonymous Coward]

Some predictions from the Srimad Bhagavatam.

Canto Twelve : Chapter Two : The Symptoms of Kali-yuga

SB 12.2.1 Sukadeva Gosvami said: Then, O King, religion, truthfulness, cleanliness, tolerance, mercy, duration of life, physical strength and memory will all diminish day by day because of the powerful influence of the age of Kali.

SB 12.2.2 In Kali-yuga, wealth alone will be considered the sign of a man's good birth, proper behavior and fine qualities. And law and justice will be applied only on the basis of one's power.

SB 12.2.3 Men and women will live together merely because of superficial attraction, and success in business will depend on deceit. Womanliness and manliness will be judged according to one's expertise in sex, and a man will be known as a brahmana just by his wearing a thread.

SB 12.2.4 A person's spiritual position will be ascertained merely according to external symbols, and on that same basis people will change from one spiritual order to the next. A person's propriety will be seriously questioned if he does not earn a good living. And one who is very clever at juggling words will be considered a learned scholar.

SB 12.2.5 A person will be judged unholy if he does not have money, and hypocrisy will be accepted as virtue. Marriage will be arranged simply by verbal agreement, and a person will think he is fit to appear in public if he has merely taken a bath.

SB 12.2.6 A sacred place will be taken to consist of no more than a reservoir of water located at a distance, and beauty will be thought to depend on one's hairstyle. Filling the belly will become the goal of life, and one who is audacious will be accepted as truthful. He who can maintain a family will be regarded as an expert man, and the principles of religion will be observed only for the sake of reputation.

SB 12.2.7 As the earth thus becomes crowded with a corrupt population, whoever among any of the social classes shows himself to be the strongest will gain political power.

Re:Ramayana and others

[Vedanti]

And yes, there is debate on whether puranas are vedic or not, but i intend not to go there.

That is exactly my point. Purana-s are NOT vedic. They are clearly classical sanskrit (post Panini) and bear no resemblance to Vedic (sanskrit).

There is no getting around the fact that the 4 Vedas do not mention caste. Caste system was a later creation and corruption of the Vedic philosophy. Manu smrithi just tried to give caste a religious color.

Casteism is the India equivalent of Slavery. Faster we come to terms with this horrible past and renounce it, the better.

You can get more information / debates at the indology forum. (http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/cgi-shl/wa?A0=indology) . Also follow this link (http://www.indianest.com/hinduism/017.htm) for a brief classification of Hindu literature (my apologies if this is too basic for you).

Great!!

[freeze128]

I wonder if they will outsource support to the US....

Re:Great!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Then Americans will have to learn Indian accent.
And Indian English.
You will be like us only. :)

In Soviet Russia...

[Anonymous Coward]

All-electronic voting chooses YOU!

In Contrast...

[Aidtopia]

In contrast, many California counties that recently "upgraded" to e-voting may revert to punchcard ballots in the recall election for Governor this October. There's a low threshhold to become a candidate ($3500 and 65 signatures -- I think), so there's a concern that there may be too many candidates for some of the e-voting systems, which have an upper limit of about 40 candidates for any given race.

Weird, if you ask me

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm an American who has only travelled to (never lived in) India. In the U.S., EVM seems to be equal to unsecure and open to fraud. However, in India, I'm sure it will COMBAT a LOT more fraud, due to the insane things that happen on a regular basis during elections. (Anyone interested in getting the living shit beat out of you because you voted for the guy that wasn't a thug?)

That said, I don't like the ID card deal one bit. There are just WAY too many citizens that would rather have dinner with their family than spend Rs.30 per person to get an ID card. I've had enough people ask me for Baksheesh (sp?) of 1 Rupee to know that most of them can't afford THIRTY Rupees just to vote for someone that won't help them anyhow, because they're an "untouchable". I may be WAY off so please correct me if so, but I can also see some "untouchable" try to walk into a gov't building to apply for an ID card, only to be kicked out (litteraly) because they "don't belong there". (For those that doubt me, let's just say that the McDonald's in Delhi has a door man, and I personally saw the door man kick the crap out of a beggar asking for baksheesh to a traveller about to enter McD's. The beggar was NOT trying to enter the shop.)

Oh well, India may be corrupt, but so is America. Maybe it's time to stop criticizing foreing nations, and try to fix what's wrong at home. But what would I know, I'm only a stupid American...

My Rs.2

Re:Weird, if you ask me

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a caste system in America as well... it's just not "official". Here's how it works. There are two factors: intelligence and appearance. That makes essentially four classes:

1. Dumb and pretty.
2. Smart and pretty.
3. Smart and ugly.
4. Dumb and ugly.

I put them in this order for a reason. That is the ranking order.

Obviously, #1 covers celebrities, sports superstars, musicians, etc. They are all dumb, but they're good looking so they make the most money and live the most extravagent lives. They essentially get to do whatever they want.

#2, Smart and Pretty. They are #2 because all the other groups hate (read jealous of)them... but because they are Pretty, they still make a lot of money, so they can afford to live almost the same lifestlye as the #1's.

#3, Smart and Ugly. Obviously, Bill Gates is the poster boy for this group. But most of the people in this group are just middle class citizens stuck in shitty jobs that they do very well. They squeek out a moderate amount of money and live simple lives.

#4, Dumb and Ugly. Essentially, if you are in this group, no one wants to be around you. You probably smell because you haven't showered in a few years. But, that doesn't matter because the gutter you sleep in masks your body odor. You'll never get a job because you have no where to live, you'll never have anywhere to live because you don't have a job. Your only hope is to write a few hit rap songs to make the jump to being a #1. This is possible because even though you are ugly... if you are famous, people think you are pretty.

Bad move

[countach]

You can never ever, EVER fully prove that an e-vote was fair. Even if you release the source and have auditors and the whole bit.

I think it was Kernigan that proved that even if you compiled the source yourself, you can't prove that the binary does what you think it does. What if the compiler is bogus and fraudulent? Even if you recompile the compiler, what if THAT compiler is bogus?

There are too many theoretical holes, that even if not true, will keep the conspiracy theorists busy. This is the one single area of human life I would NOT trust to a computer. Instead I would suggest a mechanical counting machine. That way there can be spot-checks by humans while still saving most of the money.

Re:Bad move

[KoalaBear33]

What's to say that mechanical machines aren't faulty either? Theoretically, you can rig a mechanical machine too. Maybe alter it/force it/whatever so that it votes twice when you push the button once? Even if you have people spot-checking, the burden then shifts to these "guardians". What if these people have ulterior motives? Sure these people are "independent" but so are all the election monitors in all the poor countries where every election is rigged...

I think computer voting will actually make voting more fair and impartial. However, there has to be certain conditions that have to be met.

First of all, to address you concerns, you may never know whether a piece of code does what it is supposed to but that doesnt' matter. All you need to do is to ensure that you use tools that are widely accepted and open. For instance, who knows if the gcc compiler inserts a backdoor into all the code that it compiles? How do you know that Visual Studio doesn't insert code to steal passwords from your application? You just don't. But as long as it is widely accepted and SCRUTINIZED, we can go with that. As long as you do your best, it should be fine.

I think there should be a few key conditions for the systems that are used (unfortunately none of these are satisfied right now :( ):

(i) Open-sourced code: The software must be open-source! This is a key requirement. By having code in the open, people can study and scrutinize it. This will result in improvements and catching nearly all exploits. As many security experts will tell you, the safest encryption systems are those that have published their mechanism. As long as code is closed, who knows what is going on? Unfortunately, none of the governments seem to care about this. Until the PUBLIC can look at hte source code or the description of the system functionality, these systems are bound to failure.

(ii) The system must be owned by the government or the public!!! I am not talking about the individual systems but rather EVERYTHING--source code, ideas, technologies, methods, etc. I am not a capitalist so I really don't like leaving key things with profit-maximizing institutions. The company that makes the system must hand over everything to the government or put it in public domain or make it free software or whatever. As long as software/hardware is commercial, profit-making incentives creep in. For example, there are many companies that purposely release semi-functional products so that they can recoup money on service contracts (several specialized software firms are like this). There are others who don't provide proper documentation because they want you to purchase books/documents/etc, hence resulting in them making more money. I don't want any of this junk. Making the system public domain will eliminate most of these problems. If capitalists get mad at this, it isn't a big deal. After all, there are many govt contracts which follow a similar process (eg. private consortium builds a highway or building and owns it for 50 years and then it gives everything back to the govt; weapons manufacturers often sign agreements to give up everything to the military; etc).

(iii) The system must be funded or developed by non-partisian body, preferably a non-profit organization. The government can come up with the specs, requirements, etc but some third party should develop the system (i.e. put the requirements into more concrete terms for vendors). If it is left up to the govt (as is the case now), those in power have an incentive to further their goals, and/or maintain status quo. This is unacceptable to me.

(iv) The system must be able to produce results with minimal human interaction. What I mean is that the system should be able to transfer the votes, count itself, etc. The more humans interacting with it, the more prone to exploitation. Every person that touches the system will have their own personal agendas. It would be preferable for the system to do everything itself. This isn't as danger

EVMs were developed by B.E.L

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI the voting machines were designed and manufactured by Bharat Electronics in Bangalore.
B.E.L Website (www.bel-india.com)

hey

[Anonymous Coward]

If Bush somehow gets elected to a high position or two, *then* we know there's a problem.

eVoting vs EVM

[varun]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the US is/was/will be debating eVoting i.e. voting over the internet. This is about India using EVMs - Electronic Voting Machines. They are machines on which you press a button and it records the vote. As was mentioned earlier, they are still taken to a central location and the votes tallied. There is no networking involved.

eVoting is quite different from EVMs, and I don't think the author made that difference in the article

Yeah, won't they be suprized when Saxby Chambliss

[alfredo]

and Chuck Hagel win in remarkable come from behind wins.

Read this if you don't understand what I am saying

total pop vs. registered voters

[tomdarch]

What does it take to be a registered voter in India? Here in the states, they make it as difficult as possible (thus slanting the voting population towards the wealthy/conservative). Out of India's Billion people, how many are expected to actually vote on those 800k machines?

Given that India is currently run by the ultra-right fundamentalist party, is the use of electronic voting and an identity card a technique to put up barriers to the rural/poor population? (Perhaps a candidate's brother will use the police to set up roadblocks on election day?)

Re:total pop vs. registered voters

[Anonymous Coward]

" (Perhaps a candidate's brother will use the police to set up roadblocks on election day?)"

While that possibility does exist elections in India are organized and conducted by an Election Commission. This body has shown itself to be independent and assertive in the past. Plus, security for exections is provided by a federal paramilitary force so local cops cant influence the outcome.

Re:total pop vs. registered voters

[Anonymous Coward]

"Given that India is currently run by the ultra-right fundamentalist party,"

Given India is a democracy that mean India is a ultra-right fundamentalist party!

Only advice ... don't base your political opinion on CNN or ABC ... look beyond catch phrase journalism ...

Smart Move, Implement it in America

[c0d3fu]

You want to talk about saving money and time. EVMs and e Voting are the way to go.

Can you ever prove that a mechanical vote/hand count was fair? The machines are handled by humans who could easily throw out votes or modify votes, chad or no chad. With CORRECTLY IMPLEMENTED online voting, you can nearly assure who is voting is who they claim to be. There are no ambiguous votes with a survey and confirm screen. You can also reduce the number of people involved in counting the vote tremendously, and you remove things like the Electoral College (a HUGE source of misrepresentation during presidential elections).

..you can't prove that the binary does what you think it does. What if the compiler is bogus and fraudulent?..

Using that reasoning, the firm in charge of making the voting machines could build a skewing device into them as well. There will always be people in charge of talling votes. We'll know if there is something horribly wrong, just like with standard elections. Certainly the government could employ a team of cracker-jack individuals to write a secure voting system instead of a firm. If all the source the development team writes was subject to internal review, there would not be a problem. Design the software to treat everyone like a potential imposter/meddler, even the people administering the vote. You could always employ EVMs for those who don't have computers at home.

this has been going on in the US for years

[bigpat]

It is just like those mechanical booths that many of us are used to with little levers that you pull down next to the name of the candidate. Or like the machines that scan in the paper ballot to tally the votes.

This isn't some sort of massively networked remote internet voting system that would allow people to vote naked while they scrub off in their internet enabled showers.

So this system sounds much the same as the system in many US cities and towns which either use electronic or mecahnical tallying. But the whole picture ID thing is just a system of control. In the US you just have to show some proof that you live in a place and then they put your name on a list and then when you show up to vote they cross the name off the list. Simple.

Sure they could keep the list on computers and even take your picture and store it against the list, but please don't let us start to force people to carry little dogtags like a fucking cocker spaniel.

Facts?

[r_j_prahad]

This is Slashdot. Why would we care about facts?

Re:Great... Actually no..

[Anonymous Coward]

The machines are electronic but not networked.

And that's Brahma Almighty. :-P

Apples and Oranges

[Anonymous Coward]

What has the US debate on e-balloting to to do with electronic voting booths?

I live in pa.us and already vote in an electronic voting booth, thank you very much. No ID card, just my signature in the roll book. Totally decoupled from the electronic ballot recording device. (And no chads!)

However this is not the same as voting at home from my web browser, which is what I'd consider e-balloting. I see several hurdles to that. Authentication. Security. Reliability. Trust.

Good career news!

[Anonymous Coward]

That means they will recall all the H-1B's to get it working. Hurrah!

A Really Bad Idea

[quasiac]

If these EVM's model the voting machines used in the United States, this is clearly a bad idea. Anyone who read the report released earlier by researchers at Rice and Johns Hopkins about fraud concerning electronic voting machines has ,at least, serious reservations about not using them. If we throw into the mix India's huge populace, then it is safe to say that vote rigging and election stealing is far from over.

What is the solution to India's voting problems? I am far from qualified to present a solution. But, electronic voting systems is certainly not a solution.The reason for this is that it is very, very difficult to ensure that the software that is used for such systems is extremely secure. In other words, it is nearly impossible to ensure that no cheating will be carried out by the voters, the poll workers, the election officials, the software developers, etc.

The only known solution to this problem is to use a voter verifiable audit trail, that is a paper account of the voting. By doing this, we no longer care about the accuracy of the software. The software is simply a blackbox that accepts the input of the user and prints it out to paper, which the voter can verify. The point is that the only possible proper use for an EVM is as a user-interface.The machine can help people who are visually or hearing impaired or it may display voting options in different languages, etc. There are innumerable user interface hacks that can help the population. But no matter what, it is nearly impossible to verify security if the EVM's are used as anything other than exclusive user interfaces.

can't believe you justify the caste system

[KoalaBear33]

I can't believe you justify the caste system but that is to be expected...

Anyway, the reason the caste system is horrible (far worse than the class system practiced in Western countries) is because a person has NO CHOICE under a caste system. You are basically what you were born into! A Western system, as classist as it might be, does not have that limitation. Some dude off the street could be the next Bill Gates. Sure the probability is very low but he has the choice. A caste system does not allow that.

I hate class systems but I hate caste systems 1000x more. It's sad that you don't realize it... but then again, if you are benefitting from it, you probably would have that opinion...

KoalaBear33

excellent job opportunity for laid off H1B's

[guest12]

politicians will pay top rupees for nerds who can hack these machines to win the elections. The word used there is "rig" or "booth capturing" which describes what happens next, that is stuffing ballot boxes with votes. if the nerds can manage a wireless based hack they'll be in great demand. Thye'll be paraded later on elephants, too by the grateful winner. much more fun than dangling chads.

seriously...

[guest12]

do they use a beowulf cluster or sumething..

Brazilian elections are 100% eletronic

[ospirata]

This India election isn't the first to be 100% eletronic. The election of the Brazilian president last year was 100% eletronic. And the Brazilian population isn't as big as Indian, but it's a very large country, with almost 200 million population. So, in a metter of facts, there isn't any big news about this

Re:Brazilian elections are 100% eletronic

[Bucci.com.br]

Ospirata(what a name), you are right.

I feel really sorry for those short-headed ones who post(and approve!) so called "breaking news". However, I think the major difference from the Indian system to the Brazilian one is the use of "electronic ID cards". In Brazil, "we" still use the old-fashioned paper based roster.

[]'s

LB

the BJP

[Anonymous Coward]

It looks like the BJP(current ruling party in india) will be in power for a looong time, if you catch my drift.

Honest question

[TrekkieGod]

Don't misunderstand this as some sort of sarcasm, but I got from your tone that you disaprove of requiring an ID ("Help America [Not] Vote Act"), and I honestly don't understand why. Or maybe you disagree with something else that sprung from the act.

Do you find that your privacy is being violated / there's a greater potential of it being violated by checking your ID rather than your signature? If so, why? Again, don't take this as a sarcastic post, it really isn't, but as I said with my post above, I can't think of a manner that your freedoms get exploited by requiring mandatory ID's, as long as they're not matched with your vote.

Re:Honest question

[Misch]

My opposition to it comes from the fact that in many places it's getting harder and harder to get government ID, and that government ID is required to vote.

In Rochester, NY for example, they closed the only downtown DMV office that was left. Now, people in the city have to drive (or try to take public transportation) out to the DMV's in the suburbs. Sure, they set up a "mobile DMV office" that goes to various locations there, but it's been highly ineffective. According to the Democrat and Chronicle, the downtown location used to service 370 transactions/day. The mobile location serves an average of 63 per day in the scant 5 hours it is open.

Thankfully, the state is stepping in and reversing it's earlier decision and will open a new downtown DMV branch, but still, I worry about the impact that the requirements will have on voter turnout. It might be "not worth it" for a large number of eligible voters.

Re:Honest question

[TrekkieGod]

So it's a question of whether the act accomplished its goals, not a question of privacy. Thanks for answering my question. Yeah, making the process more complex, then removing nearby offices that make it necessary to complete the process obviously doesn't encourage people to vote.

How can this be prevented now?

[einhverfr]

It was extremely common for polling booths to be attacked by goons paid by one of the candidates and all the ballot papers destroyed.

Without a durable tamperfree record, how can you prevent the same thing with e-voting? I have some solutions--

1: Each ballot should be linked to a specific voter and should be easily verifiable. This means that--
a) The computer prints a ballot after confirming the votes.
b) The ballot contains a bar code that can be easily scanned
c) The ballot contains a human readibly versopn of the voting record for later verification.

The real problem with e-voting is that recounts are not exactly possible, and the data could be tampered with. It could lead to an illusion of democtracy but where even the votes are worthless. Some even feel that way now, but imagine if it was even easier to commit voting fraud....

Caste is in the past, life is in the NOW!

[Steeltoe]

Everything is as it is. The old system certainly had its strengths and its weaknesses, just as the new system has its own NOW.

But look at the NOW. The caste system is no more. It is just a shadow left in the minds of people. New generations will sooner or later, be able to drop the past completely. You can too, NOW! If you so choose.

Don't see your fellow human being as a caste, or put them in ANY comfortable bin like religion, gender, nationality or even soccer team! They are like you, a human being, a spiritual being. Someone you cannot limit. That being behind the mask, is much, much more than you can ever contemplate, just as you also are such a being.

You see other Indians as caste, NOW is the time to drop that notion UTTERLY and spread the word. The more you talk about caste, you cloud the vision of the human being behind the words you utter. That human being which resides in reality and not in your mind.

Pride and prestige is about the ego, which is the direct opposite to true spirituality. Nobody deserves to be an "untouchable".

You are correct in this though: We never know what's REALLY right, but there's only one way to find out!

LOL..very true..

[Cassanova]

LOL..yes yes, EVing is a sign of backwardness since it is very very error prone.. LMFAO, sorry, I usually dont laugh this hard very often..

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/509/in1.htm

ROTFLMAO...

India Uses Proportional Representation

[meehawl]

It is just like those mechanical booths that many of us are used to with little levers that you pull down next to the name of the candidate.

One big difference is that the Indian elections use proportional representation, an early 20th century voting system that counts voter preference rankings to determine results, as opposed to the US's simpler, strictly 19th century plurality voting system where winner takes all, even with a minority of the total votes cast.

The US actually began to use PR during the Progressive Era, but moved the other direction during the 20th Century, abandoning many of the Progressive Era's municipal and local proportional systems (which had produced notable increases in effective votes, minority participation, and concordant representation).

[The PR] system universally came under attack from the politicians and parties who lost power and privileges. In Michigan and California, the dominant political parties mounted legal challenges and the courts in these states ruled that PR violated their constitutions. A more common attack was the effort to repeal PR by popular referendum. The referendum was a two-edged sword for PR--initially making it easier to adopt this reform, but also making it easier for opponents to challenge it. In Cleveland, well-financed opponents sponsored five repeal referendums in the first ten years of PR, with the final one succeeding. Similarly, PR opponents in Hamilton finally won their repeal effort after four failed referendums in 12 years ... Opponents of PR were not above fanning the flames of prejudice in their efforts to get rid of this reform. In particular, critics often played upon two of the most basic fears of white, middle class Americans: communists and African-Americans.

The emperor has no clothes

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone else agree that electronic voting results would be trivial to fake? All you'd have to do is generate fake database contents and delete the evidence.

Gourmet meal my ass

[Anonymous Coward]

uhh what? Rs 30 wont buy you a sandwich in a half decent restaurant.

Make sys admins rich!

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool for sys and DB admins! Now all they have to do is to bride the sys admins/and db admins to change votes!

Thanks,

[The Cydonian]

Just that, Indian newspapers prefer either pics of hot babes and ignorant nincompoops spouting their fantasies over religion, politics and justice.

Naah, I'll pass. :-)

Sorry . Re:So what?

[anandcp]

Dear All, I just returned to my PC after taking a break for a few days due to flue to find someone has been mis-using my ID to post such comments, which i find personally disturbing. I apologize for comments made in my name.

Is ignorance a way of life south of the 49th?

[ratfynk]

Most Americans treat and think of the (INDIANS), Chinese etc the same way they did Sitting Bull. Americans can be the most ignorant asses on earth when they get on a their horse that runs on lame, ignorant semi-patriotic bullshit. All men are created equal...except...Natives...etc, etc what a pile of bullshit. Either we are created equal or not, it is unequivocal. And I am a Canadian! Money in Hindu society is treated much differently than here. Property is also a different concept. The same as our differences in other social systems, our social system is built upon good ideas but like all good ideas they can get perverted by greed. Indian society and most other human societies are no different.

-1 off topic I need the mod down I am starting to grow a halo!

Re:Is ignorance a way of life south of the 49th?

[The Bungi]

And I am a Canadian

Good for you. And I'm not american.

On The Path of Liberation Caste is irrelevant

[Anonymous Coward]

>That is exactly my point. Purana-s are NOT vedic. They are clearly classical sanskrit (post Panini) and bear no resemblance to Vedic (sanskrit).

Cleary the great acharyas like Mhadvacharya, Ramanujaacharya, Visnuswami, Nimbarka charya, Sri Krisna Chaitanya,Jiva Goswami,Baladeva Vidyabhusana, and others greatly differ with you on this point.

Who are they ? They ware great sanskrit scholars, greatly knowegable in vedas. Also it is a fact they were spotless in character and practically renounced from the material sphere of activities and completely dedicated to the path of liberation and beyond.

So I am just trying to follow in their footsteps, for i am experiancing that the process of liberation recommended by them does actually work.

And yes i agree, the present caste system, is like slavery and is not at all desirable.

Also friend, The Bhagavad Gita from which i quoted is so widely respected, again i mean repected by spotless acharyas. Sripad Adi Shankara Acharya explains that one is recommended to read from the Bhagavad Gita every day. I take his recommendation as being very important.

And just to repeat,in the Bhagavad Gita Lord Sri Krishna explains, that the four divisions of society namely Philosophers(also teachers and guides),Adminstrators(also warriors),Wealth creators(also farmers),Labourers, are universally found.
And also that that a caste of a person is determided by Guna(his qualities) and Karma(his work), it specifically does not say janma(his birth).

Again, i repeat, i agree, the present caste system, is like slavery and is not at all desirable.

Thanks for the info, I sure will go the site you have asked me to and read it.

If you would be at all interested in the process mentioned above, here are some links
http://www.krishna.com/newsite/main.php?id= 10
http://www.iskcon.org/sastra/f_bg.html
http:/ /www.iskcon.org/sastra/f_bs.html
http://www.hare- krishna.org/srila-prabhupada-books .htm

Lastly, the most important this for all of us to know is,
"On The Path of Liberation Caste is completely and fully irrelevant", like Sri Valmiki

Life is short, and unless we ask "Who we are", "Who is GOD" and "What is my relationship with GOD", we are not even on the first step of the path of liberation as per the Acharyas i have stated above.

Do forgive me if i have been rude or offensive.

A good vedic resource site

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/vedas-pu rpose-origin.htm

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/

purpose and orgin of the vedas explained

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/vedas-pu rpose-origin.htm

They've done it before too..

[viksit]

Just to bring to your notice, Electronic Voting was first (ever..) introduced in india, in 1984. Due to the omnipresent politicians, the technology was phased out after just once election. The mindset was that it wouldnt allow candidates to rig elections. duh :) the election being referred to, btw, was a state election, not a national one.