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WineX and the Future of Linux Gaming
SQLz asks: "I'm a Linux user and an avid gamer but unfortunately for me, I have a very limited selection of games to play without having to reboot into my 'Xbox partition' (a Win2k partition with only games). To supplement my aging collection of Loki titles, as well as UT2003 and a few Q3A mods, I use WineX to play titles like Battlefield 1942, SimCity 4, and Homeworld Cataclysm. Apparently this is bad, as many people in the community feel that Transgaming's WineX is discouraging developers from creating native Linux ports. Does anyone have any real proof of this happening? Do developers really point out WineX as a alternative to doing a native Linux port?"
If MS Word worked really well under wine, would that stop people from wanting a native Linux word processor?
;)
WineX is great, but nothing beats a native game, and developers using WineX as an excuse to be windows-only are just lazy.
Okay perhaps you are right - laziness is very common after all
What's your GCNSEQNO?
Up until a little while ago, you could grab the winex source from cvs. They do appear to be discouraging this now. I know they flipped out on the Gentoo guys for having an easy ebuild to install it from cvs. I know the cvs server is practically unusable. It took me 4 days with a slick cron job to get the source from cvs a few months back. For the time being I have a "Windendo" partition also. I think it's going to take a few years before companys start following the ID example in larger numbers. You think more game companys would realize the dedicated fan base they get from doing multiple OS releases. It's like instant geek points. Makes them look more technologically advanced. I wish Sierra released Linux games. I'd kill for some NOLF style fun under Linux.
For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.
No, actually they point out that doing something that will make them money is the alternative to doing a Linux port.
Profitability. Or lack thereof. Same reason why there aren't more Mac games. Do the potential gains justify the cost of porting it? Some games would be easier than others, but theres not a lot of money to be made in the Linux market.
The other thing is that most people that play these kinds of games dualboot windows/linux. I'd say dualbooting is much more prevalent than using winex for games.
I'm not saying anything negative about Linux. I use Linux. But how many gamers, or just regular casual gamers, use Linux and only Linux at home?
At least you have the option of running WineX for unported games. I'm sure there are currently more Mac desktop machines out there than Linux desktop machines, and look how few ports there are to the Mac. And with a few exceptions, most games that are ported take at least a year (or even longer). If the Linux gamer's market is smaller, how do you expect companies to make a business case for porting to Linux? They're not until Linux becomes more prevalent on the desktop side.
And now, for fun's sake, take a look at RVB Apple Switch
I think the problem here is that the video game industry is contrary to the linux community in nature. The gaming industry creates closed source software and sells it in the store for money with a license for 1 machine. Linux is free as in beer and as in speech, and the software for it is usually the same.
The problem is that the same people who like those closed source games (myself included) also like linux. I think that if linux wants to establish itself as a gaming platform it needs games exclusive to itself that are as good or better than games for windows. More people need to start open source games/game engines for linux. One for every genre would be good.
When I look for video game hardware, especially consoles, the number one question on my mind is "what must-play games are here that aren't anywhere else". That's why I own a GameCube, and that why I use Windows to play games. XBoX and PS2 have good games, but the cube just has more games that I absolutely must play that aren't available for the pc or in the arcade, or on any other platform.
Conclusion: Make new open source games for linux. Make them high quality. Make them so good that people running windows will install linux just to play these games. Remember a really good free game is more popular than a slightly better $50 game. Counter-Strike is free, and I believe it's still #1.
End Rant!
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An almost-perfect Wine/WineX 'emulation' of some parts of a game might just be a perfect way for companies to start selling Linux ports.
For some trivial things like menu interfaces, performance is not an issue. The real trouble lies usually in the fast heavy graphical stuff. As GL is becoming less of a barrier, an hybrid-port (regular stuff via WineX, CPU-intensive GL stuff recompiled for Linux) could be a good bet for game companies.
I can understand that spending 10,000USD or more for a Linux port might not be that bright right now for a game company, but if Wine/WineX can lower that cost, companies will have "nothing to lose".
And while that's not the perfect solution, don't expect companies to release stuff "free as in speech" for a couple of years anyway.
So why did they bother
Some games are ported to Linux because they want Linux based game servers. Once you have the server the client-side game is a small step, but without the server there would be no client-side game. There's no money in it otherwise. Even id had stated in Game Developer magazine that a Linux port of Quake did not make business sense, they only did it because they thought it would be cool.
... developers using WineX as an excuse to be windows-only are just lazy
No they are profit oriented. The Linux "game market" is not as large as most people think. It is not the number of people willing to buy a Linux port of a game. It is only those individuals who would never buy the Win32 version of the game. Most Linux gamers dual boot or use WineX, they are already customers. A Linux port does not generate a new sale, it merely replaces a Win32 sale with a Linux sale, there is no new profit, no economic justification for the port.
But M$ shipped better SDK with better documentation for DirectX with their compiler (MSVC), and lame programers code with what is already there (Windows + DirectX). The problem is, those who write good games are basically in the same company as those who white bad games but outnumbered, and given the mentality as such ("we use DirectX by default"), virtually all games are in DirectX now. And when it turns out it's difficult to port, easiest solution is not to port it at all. This is kinda natural, except that M$ planned it this way from the very begining. Just another example how M$ use their "open" standard to grab market share.
While a 100% Native port would be cool I know lots of the Loki games and a fair few of the other ports from windows Use winelib.
From a Developers poing a view it's perfect. For as much as possible use winelib but if there are problems then port those area's. This means that with minimal effort you get a high quality game in Linux.
Instead of porting 100% just for the sake of it you can port 10% and get the same results. You get more games on linux that run better. As wine gets the games will run better with less porting. The less porting that is required the more likely a game will be ported. As more games get ported more engines will become cross platform to make it easyier for companies to port thier games to other platforms.
The engines are more impotant than the games. Look at http://www.garagegames.com/ about half the games run on linux because the engine supports it. Halflife is another good example. Lots of the mods start as windows only but as they gain in popularity the include linux Support.
The main thing to notice is that Wine is good for Linux as it gets more games on linux which means more engines will support linux (So they don't have the overhead of wine) which means you'll get more games on linux.
...it'd be so weird.
It's so easy to say: "Make new open source games for linux. Make them high quality". Do you think people strive to make low quality games?
As far as I can see, there are 2 primary differences between games and most other software:
1) Product cycle. Unlike other software, most games are one-time products. This is true for any game with a story of any sort - most single-player games. Developing games like other open-source software, by releasing mostly-completed (read half-completed) software and then evolving will not work for games. People play games, and then they're done with them. If it's really good, it'll last a few months. Multi-player versions prolong it's life, but not indefintely, given rapidly evolving hardware. Take Mozilla as an example. Or the linux kernel. That kind of development cycle will *not* work for most games.
2) Artwork. Ask most open source game developers, or look at the websites. Everybody needs good artwork. And that doesn't come for free. I'm not going to speculate upon reasons for this, since I don't know any game artists. Anyone care to shed some light?
So the bottom line is that the entire development process for open source games needs to be reviewed carefully. Also, it would be useful to have some sort of website or community for artists who are willing to do artwork for projects they consider interesting. Or is there already something like this?
If a native port is not available, then wine is the only (free) option available for Linux.
The crux of the matter is that you should let the developers know that you are running it on Wine. Without this feedback you are just another windows statistic - to be regurgitated by MS at a later date as a reason not to port the software.
If they are aware of the linux demand, we stand a better chance of getting compatible/native releases.
If developers are informed that they are almost cross platform already, they will be much more open to the possibility of rewriting the portions that would help make it a better/faster/more stable linux game.
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Really now, it's mostly irrelevant, as Wine/WineX still doesn't run practically ANYTHING without crashing your machine. I did an install of Wine last night, to see if i could get Stair Dismount or Truck Dismount to run, because i wanted my girlfriend (who's a major geek) to check them out..
Both of them instantly crashed my linux box. Brought it down, crying to it's knees, and then decapitated it. Instant crashola. Total lockup.
Bet you don't see that much.. but it does happen.. I see it all the time. Every time I try to use WINE to do something.
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This isn't meant to be flambait, but for fuck's sake!! You guys act like a native Linux port of a game is either better than the Win32 version or will somehow allow you to beat Microsoft in some way! My main machine is dual-boot between Suse and WinXP ... BECAUSE I PLAY GAMES!! I once tried to stay in Suse for a week. I couldn't do it because of all the games I play only 2 have native ports. And even those two sucked cock in Linux as compared to their Win32 counterparts in terms of configuration. I don't know if the makers of Wine(X) think that all Linux users have to be able to play with configs and settings files for hours anyways or what. But it took 6 hours to get Half-Life working ... then an additional hour to get it working properly ... then another 30 mins to get the mods working properly. Even UT took a while to get configured properly and it has the native port to Linux!! In summary, to all you motherfuckers who think that games should all have native ports and that Windows isn't good for anything ... FUCK OFF!!
Kleedrac
Sure we wang, can.
As for OpenGL replacing DirectX: Hah!
... hey this is Linux!) is really not only NO FUN AT ALL, it should not be the job of a game developer or a game porter. Hail SDL!
You have a one-in-all package: 2D and 3D support state-of-the-art, sound state-of-the art, etc. It's more feature-complete, it's widely supported, it's well-supported. If M$ got anything right, then this it is!
Without SDL, there would be even less native Linux games, because the tedious task of bringing all those libraries together, assuring they are installed, building vs. them etc. and supporting
multiple sound systems (ALSA, OSS, Esound
Bring in those engines, those servers! If you build them, they will come.
The community simply has to do its utmost to provide as much as possible pre-built and available for the game developers, and there will be hope, either for Linux people making their own games or small-to-medium companies doing ports.
Or the community simply doesn't care enough.
Remember: Nowadays making a game is a lot about visual art, fitting sound, etc. That's no coder stuff! Maybe that explains the lack of Linux games, because the Linux "audience" simply doesn't care enough and does not include the right people for the job. If I think what a LOUSY (!!!) interface the feature-complete GIMP has, I'm pretty sure there are NOT a lot of the design crowd present in Linux.
I know, games should mainly rely on a clever or addictive basic principle, on well-thought-out concepts, loving detail, strong storylines, etc. And I love those games that do, often enough in stark contrast to their lousy interface and/or graphics. But face reality: If your games should go mainstream, expect to invest in the eye-candy.
If you want to lure the mainstream onto Linux, give best-possible support to designers: Engines, user-friendly design programs for 2D and 3D art, for manipulating video and music, ONE interface for accessing a system's features (beefing up SDL).
We did get Hollywood to go Linux. Or Hollywood convinced itself to go Linux. That should prove Linux usability and multimedia performance. But: Hollywood did not target Linux as a platform, but as a tool.
Perhaps we can at least get the game companies to use Linux as a tool (as some already do). If using Linux seems worthwhile or even the best option, porting games may be too! Especially small-to-medium game businesses could gain a lot by cooperating with the community, and the community could gain a lot if providing them with tools and services, even their own businesses.
Remember: Tools may be free, engine may be free, game may be closed-source provided there will be a Linux port, and all are happy. It's a bargain. Ain't it always?
Maybe someone should develop something like winex for the windows platform to play native linux games on windows. Then developers could turn to linux and write native linux games that still work on windows.
Sacrifice apparently
The Whys and Hows of Porting Softwareby Ryan Gordon (icculus of icculus.org)
Spy Hunter: For once, Windows users get ripped off by transgaming
was DirectX considered alongside Internet Explorer in the Antitrust case?
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A strong, healthy emulator that allows Linux to run as many Windows apps as possible can only be in the best interest of the Linux community. If casual users know that the applications they use will run under emulation in Linux, they will be much more likely to make the switch. Thus, good, easily accessible emulators mean MORE USERS. This has to be the all-consuming goal of everyone who seeks to promote the Linux operating system, as well as the ideology that goes along with it. If we have the users, the applications will come. If we have the users, the manufacturer-supported drivers will come. If we have the users, MORE USERS will come.
When we have a large enough installed base of Linux users, three things will happen. Firstly, the market will be large enough that game companies can profitably support native development. Secondly, game companies will see that their games are going to be run under Linux ANYWAY, and it will be cheaper from a support aspect for them to just skip the emulation and do a native port. Lastly, we'll get widespread official driver support from manufacturers, which will make Linux much more robust on a wide variety of platforms.
What's the point of this long, rambling comment? Having a larger Linux community is a circle that starts with users. With users come official support, applications, and drivers, and easier implementation, and with these come more users. By discouraging quality emulation, you discourage users, thus compromising the future of Linux. Users are leverage, and trying to leverage game companies to produce native applications when we don't HAVE any leverage isn't going to work. If we can develop the market to the point where game companies want to develop for Linux, excellent. Trying to force them to develop for Linux is just stupid.
I'm about to make a general statement - as such, while it is true much of the time, it is not ALWAYS true. Pointing to such cases as a means to disprove my statement fails to disprove it.
Wine is a double-edged sword - in the short run it enables people to move away from Windows, but in the long run it keeps them tied to it.
Consider this gedanken experiment - suppose a version of Wine were to be released tomorrow that ran every Windows application (not drivers, just apps). You could go to the store and buy any Windows program and install it under Wine with the same probability of success that you would have under Windows.
On the one hand, many people could and would move away from running Windows. However, the applications vendors would have little motivation to write native apps - why split your development efforts for no measurable gain?
Now, unless your goal is Free Software a la RMS, you've "won" - you've broken the monopoly hold Microsoft has on the OS market.
<voice person="Charles Gray">Or have you?</voice>
Microsoft still controls the ABI. Microsoft can still change the ABI at will, breaking Wine. So long as Microsoft controls the ABI, Wine will always be a second-class citizen.
IBM played this game with the Win16 ABI under OS/2. Microsoft changed the ABI to the Win32 ABI and did not license it to IBM.
Wine should only be used as a stop-gap - if Wine becomes the preferred way of doing things then we may as well simply run Windows.
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Expending extra effort to make a linux-native game will not be worthwhile until there is actually a linux games market. There won't be a linux games market without games. So I think WineX/Transgaming/whatever is probably helping in this regard, bootstrapping the process. Short of some sort of technical feat which makes games perform, say, 10% better on Linux, there is just no reason to write to linux (unless you are John Carmack, and have wads of money to blow on maintaining your geek ethos). That Linux is the Right Thing, makes no difference in the market (it rarely does).
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
ok you want gaming companies to start porting to linux which has 1% of the desktop market and out of that mabey 50% (high estimate i bet) tops are gamers? Not to mention most linux users still live in their mom's basements and havent bought any software since 1985.(sorry had to poke a little fun) Do any of you own a business? If you were a gaming company would it seems like a wise investment? Personally I would laugh the person that proposed it right out of the room.
I disagree. Linux provides a fast, stable, and easy-to-write-for platform for non-interactive, non-graphical network applications (such as game servers). However, it is the graphics and sound support that is still in a state of evolution--from drivers to APIs. And it is these aspects (the drivers in particular) that are, in many cases, lacking. So, when it comes to getting it working on Linux, the graphical, interactive client is certainly a far different beast than the server.
In the future, all spacecraft will be made of cheese.
Hey u guys..
:)
cant u see that windows is sinking?
linux and mac are rising these days.
someday windows is gonna get without its game ports...
i think mac will allways be superior to linux in matter of desktop.
games for mac will came in a torrent.
and linux ports too
I intend to live forever. So far, so good.
...the open source community should get together and start implementing the DirectX API in open, cross-platform (Mac and Linux) code, licensed under the LGPL.
Then we'd see a lot more cross-platform games.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
The only way I see the gaming side of Linux growing (short of a 1000 fold increase in desktop users) is for a game developer to make a truly awesome game and have it for Linux only.
Since this would financially be the equivalent of putting the development money into a wood burning stove, it wouldn't matter if the linux community pirated the hell out of it.
It would draw people to the OS just to check out the game. This would all have to be done almost as a sacrifice for the good of Linux by a donor entity with deep pockets. Perhaps if it doesn't succeed, it can always be ported to Windows, where it should be able to make it's money back.
A gigantic pipe dream, but still fun to think about.
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No matter how you look at it Linux sucks as a game platform. Same with Mac. Aside from Bungie I don't know of any company that has made a game that rivals the Windows port, or native version in Windows.
Don't ask me to explain it, all I know is that every game I've ever seen looks better, and plays better on Windows. I'm even counting those games that were developed on Mac or Linux (well Mac at least, I don't know of any games developed for Linux then ported to Windows) that were ported to Windows (with the exception being Bungie).
Game developers operate off of demand, whether actual (gamers write letters saying "We want XXX feature!") or percieved (sales research shows that games with better graphics sell more copies).
If they don't recieve any pressure from the gaming community to produce a Linux port, they're not going to, and if gamers running Linux just use emulation instead of writing in with their opinions, developers are under no pressure to change their product.
As the owner of a commercial game development company I must say that WineX is great. We don't have time for native ports, and there is not enough money in them for our developers. Don't get me wrong, I love Linux. My point is, if it was not for WineX most people would never play any of our games on Linux. We will continue to do everything we can with Transgaming to ensure the best performance when playing our games. I am sure someday that Linux will become more widespread, and then you can expect native releases.
open-source software, games included, can be ported to Windows quite easily, and if it's a good enough game, it'll be ported without question.
The real soulution is that companies should develop first on Linux and port to Windows after... the less crashing will result in days of work shaved off, and that extra saved time can be used for the Windows port, the Mac port, and vacation time.
Dude, only a very few developers even consider porting to Linux. The rest don't care if it runs on Winex. If it does, great. If not, who cares. Really, native ports might come about if we go out and buy the linux version of games. Vote with your cash.
Transgaming have said they will not actively promote compatability with games that have native ports, but this is a lie, their comments made on the Majesty section of their website make it quite plain they consider they are superior to native and they intend to beat native out of the market.
They are determined to ensure that Linux has second rate products and are a slave to Windows for our products and our api.
At Tux Games, we are more determined to ensure Linux has quality products than making a quick buck. We have turned down the opportunity to stock winex compatable games on our store, and we have invested heavily in producing native ports of games through our LGP branch. Native is the only future trhat leaves Linux viable and self-sufficient.
Transgaming have already shown that they dont really care about the Linux market, having ported a game from mac to windows without even bothering to make a Linux version.
Tux Games. Your complete source for native Linux games.
Gentoo is releasing game CDs based on Gentoo where the user puts the CD into the computer and boots up directly into the game. Just like in a console box. That should be the future of all games
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Didn't you hear - I come in Six Packs
Majesty sucks and so does SpyHunter. TuxGames should be applauding WineX. If it was not for WineX, I would not be gaming on my Linux desktop because many of the games I want to play don't have native ports and never will. Since I've been gaming on my Linux desktop I've placed at least 5 orders with Tux Games in the last year to get more games to play on my Linux desktop. I don't care if its WineX or not as long as it runs. I just placed my Savage pre-order with you and if you sold games that ran on WineX I would buy them from you too. My brother whom also switched to Linux after he found out Ultima Online ran via WineX also bought SimCity 3000 from you, and Quake3 after uninstalling Windows.. Those sales were generated by a Linux desktop user who switched because of WineX. Both of us will be ordering MOAA from you as well. Anyway, I am surprised that a business person such as yourself does not understand the basic principle of supply and demand. For a company to supply a good, there has to be a demand for it. WineX increases demand for games that run on Linux, be it via WineX or not. Developers will port to Linux one day for the same reason they port to PC, Xbox, PS2, and GC which is to make extra money on their investment.
In the short term ytou are correct, it is very profitable in the short term. But in the long term it will kill Linux applications and gaming.
It will always be easier to emulate than to port natively, which is what makes it so attractive to do. Right now, emulation is a lot less stable and reliable than native, but as time goes on, it will improve, obviously. But what happens when emulation has won and the native companies are dead? Well, then everything will be emulated.
Yeah and if the emulation runs flawlessly that isnt a problem right? Its OK that Linux is living on the API of its competitor (never a good idea), bevcause we can just emulate that API and anything they can do, we can copy. Right?
Wrong.
It would take about 10 minutes for Microsoft to kill Wine(x) using some kind of patent law. Add some cool new feature into directx 10, patent it, and suddenly nothing that uses Dx10 will work under emulation. This has already had an effect on drivers, where some of the patented OpenGL features couldnt be used in the open source OGL drivers.
Suddenly new games (and applications) arent going to run on emulation any more so we will have to turn to the porting companies to supply them. Hold on, what porting companies? Theyve all gone. By this time the barriers to entry are even higher (you should see them now, its NOT easy to start right now, and its only going to get harder).
Im looking long term. When I look at wine longterm I see a dead end, and I see business failure. When I look at native long term I see a REALLY tough road, but I see a road that doesnt dead end. Personallly, I'd prefer to stick around and keep producing products for Linux, than make a quick fast buck and then be out of business.
Tux Games. Your complete source for native Linux games.
Aactually, it would be very foolish of MS to start enforcing DirectX patents on developers. There is no better way for them to scare developers away from DirectX than to start suing people for using a SDK you can download for free. Not only that, you can't just selectively enforce a patent on someone and noone else. WineX is a dead end, as soon as there are enough Linux gamers that developers code their games knowing that there will be a PC,Xbox, Linux, and Mac port.
Actually thats not what the patent would do. It would be applicable to people making clones or emulators of directx. Examine the gif patent as an example. The patent wasnt applied to individuals using gifs, it was applied to companies or groups making products that handled gifs. The end user wasnt affected in any way, the companies and groups were the ones being made to pay license fees.
If that happens in directx, then you have wine having to pay $10 per copy of wine that is downloaded or something along those lines, then suddenly you have an unsustainable wine project, or you have a wine project that cannot fully emulate. Either way, you are screwed. The only way round it is to a) break the law and ignore the patent issue, or b) go native.
Tux Games. Your complete source for native Linux games.