Products Seek Antiterrorism Certification

Makarand writes "According to ABCNews/Forbes, businesses with antiterrorism products for which they are unable to find insurers to provide liability coverage are lining up to seek the Homeland Security Department's seal of approval. Products certified as antiterrorism products enjoy some protection from liability suits and an official 'seal of approval', making them easier to sell. The Department has started accepting applications for certification, many likely to come from technology companies such as Qualcomm, Unisys, and others, starting Sept. 1."

Comments

Useless & Opportunistic

[Anonymous Coward]

Producer/Director George Alexander brings you the best information available on how you as an American citizen can prevent terrorism! Remember that acts of terrorism and the murder of innocent people are meant to demoralize a society and make it crumble. We cannot allow this to happen to our great society, our democratic form of government and the stability of the free world.

On this video you will find out from terrorism experts the best things you can do to safeguard our nation and stop terrorists. Terrorism expert Robert Griswold discusses what you can do to prevent terrorism and how to prepare in case of an attack. This video answers many questions such as," What is suspicious behavior and who should I report it to?" Is ethnic profiling wrong? How can I best be prepared in case of a terrorist attack? What does a yellow alert mean and what should I do? What is the right gas mask? What is a Haz Mat Suit? When do I need one? Are Duct Tape & Plastic really necessary? What kind of Terrorist Act Could Be Next And Where? Everything you want to know and more!

Re:Useless & Opportunistic

[Anonymous Coward]

Do any of the suggestions on preventing terrorism include the suggestion to "stop pissing off Arabs and/or Muslims"?

Re:Useless & Opportunistic

[ergo98]

Absolutely hilarious, however even better check out the "review" from chatchi, as well as their other "reviews". Either that person has a wonderful sense of humor and a tremendous amount of time on their hands, or they're getting paid by some independent crap video producer.

Re:Useless & Opportunistic

[Seannon]

hmmm ethnic profiling, like, what country is that dark skinned guy from? well, as for the What is the right gas mask? What is a Haz Mat Suit? When do I need one?well, these are a matter of specialzed training... as for the suits the training is to make you be in a hazmat suit... alive... not be hazmat in a suit dead

Re:Useless & Opportunistic

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't. When you try, they blow themselves up. Remember that game "Lemmings?"

Re:Useless & Opportunistic

[kypm]

Remember your crazy Uncles house in the late 1950's... You know, the one with the nuclear fall out shelter under the back yard? But only TWO feet underground. With only enough food/water/air for about oh say one afternoon!!! Common Sense people - common sense.

Re:Useless & Opportunistic

[kypm]

Last time I checked, didn't we already have SEVERAL Government agencies that do the exact same thing that this homeland thing does? FBI, CIA any three letter acronym will do, and that doesn't even count the guards!! Coast Guard, National Guard, pocket Guard? Common Sense People...common sense

Re:Useless & Opportunistic

[Anonymous Coward]

Do any of the suggestions on preventing terrorism include the suggestion to "stop pissing off Arabs and/or Muslims"?

Rather tricky to do when the Israeli and oil lobbies have the ear of the US government.
Anyway the more relevent advice would be "stop pissing off most of the rest of the planet".

Seal of Removel?

[Gr33nNight]

So, if an app has the Holy Seal, it is trustworthy? Going to have interesting repercussions if said software gets hacked into, or a major exploit is found...or will they label that as an act of terrorism (since with The Seal, the software can not be liable.)

Re:Seal of Removel?

[enjo13]

I'm not intimately familiar with the specifics, but my former employer is pursuing this. I beleive it LIMITS liability, and doesn't eliminate it altogether.

Re:Seal of Removel?

[Jeremi]

So, if an app has the Holy Seal, it is trustworthy?

Quite the opposite, I would think. If the product has the Holy Seal, that means the vendor knew the product has potential to cause major harm and took steps to cover itself from liability suits. Therefore, if you see a product with the seal on it, run like hell.

Re:Seal of Removel?

[Weirsbaski]

So, if an app has the Holy Seal, it is trustworthy? Going to have interesting repercussions if said software gets hacked into, or a major exploit is found...or will they label that as an act of terrorism (since with The Seal, the software can not be liable.)

liable and reliable are two different things...

Re:Seal of Removel?

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as I remember it limits it. So basically if say an anthrax drug is released and kills loads of people the drug company won't be as liable as they should be.

Re:Seal of Removel?

[blang]

Exactly right.

Pretty much like worker's compensation. If you lose your legs and arms at a workplace with worker's compensation, you'll get a token amount. Without worker's compensation, you can sue the company or insurer for actual damages plus tort.

The seal is purely a favor to manufacturers, as worker's comp is a favor to employers.

fuzzy d20

[lordjabbo]

When I get done making a fuzzy d20, I'm gonna submit it for a seal of approval ...

Good Lord

[Vokbain]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Americans are crazy. Reminds me of when people were buying parachutes in case they had to jump out of office towers. The chances of anything happening to 99.99% of the American population is 0. Not a bad scam though.

Re:Good Lord

[Hott of the World]

Yes, I imagine that any sufficiently advanced civilization is indistinguishable from an insane asylum.

Re:Good Lord

[GigsVT]

There's a difference between crazy and prepared though.

It's easy to make fun of some of the more extreme stuff, but I wonder how much of it comes from the need to rationalize a total lack of preparation for anything bad, because preparation means you have to admit to yourself that something could happen, rather than living in ignorant denial.

The "terrorist threat" has been used by lots of people with lots of agendas. Fear is a good way to control people. At the same time, the interesting dynamic comes from the fact that the ones who fear the most, are usually the most ill-prepared for realistic threats to safety. Their fear runs so deep that they can't admit to themselves that there really may be a threat. Confidence comes from rational preparation.

The chances of any one particular thing happening to one particular person is pretty low. There's an interesting statistical game here though. It's similar to the birthday problem. Basically, though the chance of any particular thing happening to you is miniscule, the chance of something happening to you is high, because there are so many weird things that can happen to you.

Tornados, hurricanes, flash floods, earthquakes, acts of terror, random criminal acts, terminal communicable diseases... There are many freak things that can happen to a person, and at some point, one of the "rare" things will probably happen to you. The chance of each is slight, but one can't ignore them.

Luckily the way to prepare for many of them is the same. Extra food, water, personal defense, a shelter or at least a reinforced area. It's more irrational not to do basic things to prepare, than to do them.

On the other hand, most of the things needed to prepare are basic, not fancy gizmos. Security and preparation doesn't have to constantly have the word "terrorism" after it to justify it.

Don't be afraid, be prepared.

Re:Good Lord

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

No, people are crazy.

Re:Good Lord

[isaac]

Confidence comes from rational preparation.

You really should look at David Dunning's research at Cornell, which suggests the opposite may be true in most cases. His study on showing that people who are least competent are most unaware of their own incompetence was widely reported a few years back.

-Isaac

Re:Good Lord

[ergo98]

"...but I wonder how much of it comes from the need to rationalize a total lack of preparation for anything bad"

Right on the money. When I was a teen I worked in a factory during the summer, and my job was putting fiberglass inserts into some automotive part and then pressing some steel parts together using a huge, very loud press. The company, by law, offered air filters and ear plugs but literally no-one used them. Not being a follower, I opted to avoid lung cancer and hearing loss and used both. What I discovered was that taking precautions like these was actually scorned and belittled for taking these precautions, and the natural conclusions is that my self-preservation made real the vulnerabilities of others, and in a classic case of denial, they'd rather pretend that the threat didn't exist than deal with it, and somehow my reminding them of their frailties made it somehow more real.

Very similar to that happened in the recent Toronto SARS scare: The media and the general public actually scorned people who took to wearing masks -- Big bloody deal! So people wore a mask -- how does this make other people less healthy? If anything, the masks could help reduce the transmissions of regular ailments like the flu and the cold, so they're almost doing a public service, but you wouldn't think that hearing the way the media and public belittled those who took to pursuing that precaution.

Re:Good Lord

[Anonymous Coward]

You have far more chances of having a car accident than any of those disasters. So if you are really serious about preparing yourself... STOP USING YOUR CAR AND DON'T GO NEAR A ROAD! Oh and since you also have a good chance of dying from a heart problem EAT LESS MEAT! And did you know that if you're near someone with a disease there's a good chance you will catch what he's got? So NEVER GO NEAR PEOPLE!

You probably don't realize it but you really need help.

Re:Good Lord

[ergo98]

You see that's unreasonable, strawman rationalization. I need my car to get to work, so I drive it, though in doing so I drive safely, keep my car in good maintenance, and choose a car that is safe with all of the safety features. Saying "don't drive" is as unrealistic as saying "move into the wilderness" to many people. By the same token how unreasonable is it to put a little control into your own hands and perhaps stockpile a bit of food and water so if another blackout hits you aren't waiting for the national guard once the water pumps stop working. How crazy is it to keep some basic supplies to exist without curling in a ball and dying? None of these affect your day to day living, and they really aren't a big deal, but it's astounding how many people get personally defensive when someone mentions that they do them.

Re:Good Lord

[freeweed]

Actually, the media went on and on and on and on about SARS, as if anyone who even thought about Toronto would keel over and die that second. If anything, I'd say they caused far more people to needlessly panic than belittle the situation.

As for the harm? No, wearing masks isn't in itself harmful. Ignoring the much more likely causes of death life throws at us is, and 9 times out of 10 people put on a mask, figure "I'll live through today", and remain ignorant. Decimating the local economy (think tourism) is. Bankrupting hundreds of farmers because of one cow is, especially for a disease that may not even be transmittable to humans.

Thanks, I'll stay informed about what's real, and not trouble myself over things that will less likely kill me than lightning.

Re:Good Lord

[B3ryllium]

Someone else on Slashdot once pointed out similar ignorance on the part of the media when anything radioactive is concerned.

I mean, when was the last time you heard of something radioactive, with a definitive number attached to it? How do media reports skew the public and instill fear by simply leaving out the true numbers and lumping everything under the single term "radioactive"?

How often to people ask their dentist how much radiation they are exposed to during X-Rays?

Re:Good Lord

[pipingguy]

Basically, though the chance of any particular thing happening to you is miniscule, the chance of something happening to you is high, because there are so many weird things that can happen to you.

This is why I have strapped an extremely low frequency sound generator to my head everytime I go outside (admittedly, not often).

Try to intimidate me? Ha-ha! Take these imagined ghosts and feelings of sickness, you scum!

Re:Good Lord

[ATMAvatar]

I wonder if explaining that I am radioactive will keep a boss away...

Re:Good Lord

[Anonymous Coward]

I drive safely, keep my car in good maintenance, and choose a car that is safe with all of the safety features

Oh my God! You're life must be really boring! What do you do when your wild? Square dancing?

Saying "don't drive" is [...] unrealistic

Of course it is! It was sarcastic!

Tell me... How many people died of hunger during the last blackout? Stockpiling "a bit" of food is stupid! It's an illusion to make weak people feel safer. The truth is if our society gets to the point where we really need to stockpile food and fight for our lives I can assure you that the ones who prepare for a blackout will die pretty quickly. But we're not to that point yet so, Linus, why don't you forget about your blanket, stop worrying and, like normal people, start enjoying life instead.

Re:Good Lord

[Anonymous Coward]

What I discovered was that taking precautions like these was actually scorned and belittled for taking these precautions, and the natural conclusions is that my self-preservation made real the vulnerabilities of others

No, it just made you look like a dork. Sorry. We tried to tell you.

Re:Good Lord

[Anonymous Coward]

"Tornados, hurricanes, flash floods, earthquakes, acts of terror, random criminal acts, terminal communicable diseases... it's more irrational not to do basic things to prepare, than to do them."

Wouldn't it be more rational for people to use the money to buy a slightly safer car instead, as the number of road deaths are much higher than any of those other things you quote?

Or, for even more lives saved/$, use the money to take a couple of hours unpaid leave each week and go to the gym?

Re:Good Lord

[Sir Holo]

The "terrorist threat" has been used by lots of people with lots of agendas. Fear is a good way to control people.

The "terrorist threat" is your new boogeyman. Get to know him. He will be around for a long time.

His job was previously filled by Mr. "communist Russia," who sadly died after some 40-odd years of service. He will be missed.

Re:Good Lord

[pmz]

Reminds me of when people were buying parachutes in case they had to jump out of office towers.

In America, if a man want's to hang himself, there will be someone right behind him willing to sell him the noose. However, this is actually a good thing. Are you suprised by this? It is an example of recognizing opportunity in real time to meet someone's needs. It doesn't require the Governor or the President to call an executive order or Congress to make a vote--it just happens. Money merely makes it impersonal (no need to hold a grudge or expect favors later on).

Re:Good Lord

[pmz]

Confidence comes from rational preparation. ...people who are least competent are most unaware of their own incompetence...

Was this really about preparedness or is it merely a psychologist's way of describing middle-management?

Re:Good Lord

[pmz]

How do media reports skew the public and instill fear by simply leaving out the true numbers and lumping everything under the single term "radioactive"?

Just wait until the investigative report on glow-in-the-dark watch faces! It will be global chaos!

Re:Good Lord

[ergo98]

"...as if anyone who even thought about Toronto would keel over and die that second..."

I guess it's all in how you perceive it. I see a disease that we knew little about, that came out of nowhere, and that was recognized as mutating. A disease that kills even younger, healthy adults. It required a massive quarantine throughout our society and hospital system (likely causing other deaths due to delayed surgery, etc). In a short period, maybe 4 months, it killed some 44 people in Toronto alone. Furthermore, it is something which the average Joe has limited ability to protect themselves from: I personally rode a GO train with a nurse who was infected (note that the nurse in question talked to no one and was not in the sneezing/coughing stage, so the results could have been much worse). I hardly think SARS was overblown whatsoever, and one has to wonder if, much like Y2K, what is now perceived as a "massive overreaction" is seen as such because the "overreaction" was highly successful. BTW: Expect SARS to make a comeback in the fall, as all of its respiratory friends do as well. I take it you'll be sticking your head in the sand, cynically huffing (and then sneezing and coughing) about how foolish those people wearing masks are.

By comparison about 55 people in Toronto are murdered each year, and while it's still something that is very much on people's minds, it is lessened because we all know ways to avoid our risk: Stay out of dark alleys at night, it's probably a good idea to stay out of the drug trade, don't marry homicidally jealous spouses, etc. Immediately your probability of falling victim is dramatically lessened to very close to nil, hence the public concern is lessened. Compare, on the other hand, the TREMENDOUS attention that any "random" killings get, of say a tourist in Florida, or some sniper shootings in the DC area : People pay close attention to anything which they have a limited ability to control specific risks.

"Ignoring the much more likely causes of death life throws at us is, and 9 times out of 10 people put on a mask, figure "I'll live through today", and remain ignorant. "

All apologies, but this is an all-too-common, convoluted, ridiculous statement, and it's of the "doing nothing is better than doing anything at all" variety. This is the same sort of inane logic that appears in letters to the editor after any story about the humane treatment of animals, when selfish armchair cynics proclaim that it's all wasted because there are homeless people, or starving kids in Ethiopia. You see, to these people, doing nothing whatsoever beats out doing anything at all, because there's always something more important not to do or not to react to than to bother with the little stuff. This is how the useless, unprepared, and unhelpful justify their inaction, and it's also how those in denial convince themselves of their choices.

Re:Good Lord

[poot_rootbeer]

Reminds me of when people were buying parachutes in case they had to jump out of office towers.

Two years ago today, hundreds of people fell to their deaths from office towers. If they had escape parachutes available, many of them needn't have lost their lives.

What's your point?

What the hell?

[Kedisar]

What IS going to be "antiterrorism" certified? Rocket launchers, knives, American Flags, God Bless America CDs, towel-burners....

hmmmmm

[rnd()]

Only one comment after the privileged Slashdot Subscribers have had their say? That tells me that there are about 3 subscribers!

Anyway... as a libertarian, I prefer certification to licensure. Certification toward the goal of anti-terrorism will likely help some software companies sell software to the government. It also may shed light on some requirements that woudln't necessarily be obvious were they not outlined in the cert requirements.

Re:hmmmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

fuckwad, subscribers can't post earlier than anyone else. they just can read the story earlier.

Re:hmmmmm

[pmz]

I prefer certification to licensure.

Me too. We shouldn't forget the several extrememly successful private certification programs out there that have helped save many lives. For example, Underwriter's Laboratories, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, etc., which create marketable and achieveable certifications. They can create an "arms race" among private corporations without any government intervention, benefiting people's safety while not taking away freedom with rigid government quotas and specifications. I think most people take for granted that nearly all product improvements over the decades have not been due to Congress "coming to the rescue."

A small company can simply opt out of participation in the certifications but cannot opt out of government intervention. New competitors can gain market share through reputation until they can affort certification. With government intervention, new competitors wouldn't even get past the "what if" stage.

A good case study would be JBoss (in non-safety circles), where a product can be well regarded even without being certified. If Sun and JBoss work out some deal, that only strengthen's JBoss' claims. One reason why JBoss is successful is probably that it met a market niche, where a different balance of cost and guaranteed functionality was achieved (i.e., compare to WebLogic at thousands of dollars).

Re:hmmmmm

[rnd()]

You make some very good points. Interestingly, a lot of Slashdot readers seem to support extensive government intervention. In these days of massive and inexpensive information, certification becomes far more efficient than licensure, and also has the effect of automatically becoming meaningless if for some reason people no longer care... Nobody ever builds time limits into laws that congress passes.. :)

Re:hmmmmm

[pmz]

Interestingly, a lot of Slashdot readers seem to support extensive government intervention.

Ironically, these people do so while arguing against things like the PATRIOT Act, copyright extensions, the DMCA, etc. Intervention is intervention, but some people don't seen the subtlty of things like nationalized healthcare or drug legislation.

Certificates...

[lord_paladine]

Could I get certification for my gun? Nothing stops a terrorist faster, and not having to worry about all those pesky liabilities sure would put my trigger finger at ease.

Re:Certificates...

[Anonymous Coward]

I too, with a wee bit of despair, find myself less inclined to keep my Sig 228 out and around with the chance that some bozo may come in, shoot himself, and sue me for his stupidity. Hence, Precious (my nickname for the little gal) spends most her time in the safe. *Sigh*

Re:Certificates...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Precious" huh?

Sick. Fuck.

Re:Certificates...

[Anonymous Coward]

The U.S.A. population needs more Boy Scout-style "Be prepared" training. Personally, I'd feel more secure if pocket knives were allowed on planes. I'd much rather be surrounded by knife toting fellow Americans should a thug or two be on the flight, than surrounded by a bunch of defenseless cellphone and credit card toting hippies. If every American learned basic survival skills nearing Osama Bin Ladin's proficiency, there would be little fear of terrorism.

Re:Certificates...

[Anonymous Coward]

"I stole your precious.."

Re:Certificates...

[DarthWiggle]

and here I was worried this was going to be some sort of pathetic..er, I mean "cute but flawed" anti-gun rant.

Re:Certificates...

[sys$manager]

How can a gun stop a terrorist? Last I checked they used bombs (car and/or human) and crashed planes into shit.

"Oh shit! That dude is about to blow himself up! I will shoot him, that will be effective!"

Re:Certificates...

[Bombcar]

What could one do with a gun on a plane? [Sarcasm] Obviously Nothing![/Sarcasm]

I guess that's why Air Marshals don't exist.....

Re:Certificates...

[gantrep]

If you shoot him in the head, how will he pull the cord or press the button?

Re:Certificates...

[sys$manager]

If I was a suicide bomber, I would use a "dead-man" switch where I had to hold the button to make the bomb NOT go off. Then you could shoot me in the head and I would let go and I'd blow up.

1) Hold trigger swich down
2) Flip arming switch
3) ???
4) PROFIT!!!

Re:Certificates...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why was the parent modded -1 troll while the one above about shooting "niggers and dune coons" was left alone? Was it because Slashdotters can't stand to be called "defenseless cellphone and credit card toting hippies" because they know it's so very true?

Re:Certificates...

[lord_paladine]

"Oh shit! That dude is about to blow himself up! I will shoot him, that will be effective!"

And obviously seizing their assets and dropping bombs on them seems to work.

</spiteful sarcasm>

Re:Certificates...

[Maserati]

Shouldn't that be

4) PROPHET!!!

Re:Certificates...

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless he's using a dead man's switch, it will stop him from detonating the bomb.

Re:Certificates...

[kypm]

Usually, if someone dies before he can push the plunger on his suicide vest bomb, the bomb doesn't go off. Common Sense People...common sense.

Re:Certificates...

[mpe]

Usually, if someone dies before he can push the plunger on his suicide vest bomb, the bomb doesn't go off.

In which case all they need is a switch which arms the bomb when pressed and detonates when released. (With a separate switch to disarm in they cannot get close enough to their target.) People making such weapons arn't stupid they have heard of the concept of a "dead man's switch".

Re:Certificates...

[sharkey]

What could one do with a gun on a plane?

Shoot the guy threatening the pilots with a box-cutter.

Re:Certificates...

[gfilion]

1) Hold trigger swich down
2) Flip arming switch
3) ???
4) PROFIT!!!

I believe that Al Qaida/Hamas/etc have changed number 4 to:
4) Paradise with 77 virgins chix! (or something similar)

Re:Certificates...

[WNight]

Wow, so there's a case where shooting a terrorist before he pushes a button won't help! We'd better never shoot a terrorist then because it might not work, we should all sit around uselessly and let him press the button, thus killing us anyway.

This isn't a problem. If shooting a terrorist makes him blow up, then not shooting him also lets him blow up, as does tackling him or tazering him, etc. In other words, you're fucked anyways. All you've done is blow him up now as opposed to when he really wants to blow up, which if you follow this whole terrororism thing, is probably when it'll kill even more people. Also, deadman switches aren't as easy or reliable as people seem to think. The tech to wire them to heart-beat or something pretty much isn't there, so they'd end up being hand-held which might not work (some gunshot deaths don't cause spasms, some do) and would get in the terrorists way and be more visible.

Re:Certificates...

[Anonymous Coward]

Shouldn't that be [...] 4) PROPHET!!!

Oh, oh, now that's heinous. A pun that viciously bad is worthy of addition to the Friends list.

What exactly is the standard used?

[setzman]

What would be the standards used for this certification?

Re:What exactly is the standard used?

[chill]

What would be the standards used for this certification?

Did the check clear? :-)

Re:What exactly is the standard used?

[Black Parrot]

> What would be the standards used for this certification?

Campaign donations by the applicant?

Re:What exactly is the standard used?

[halo8]

how the hell did this get modded funny?

+10 insightfull

OR

Did the campain finance check clear? :-) +100 MOFO insightfull

Re:What exactly is the standard used?

[euxneks]

For canadians and any other _englsih_ speaking people out there, that's cheque, not "check".

=P Just clarifying..

Re:What exactly is the standard used?

[chill]

For canadians and any other _englsih_ speaking people out there, that's cheque, not "check".

Mea culpa. Hell, I just corrected one of my kids today when he spelled "raquetball" as "racketball"!

Re:What exactly is the standard used?

[Channard]

What would be the standards used for this certification?

Are you a terrorist? Yes / No

Are you telling the truth? Yes / No

Do you respect our authoritaaay Yes / No.

Re:What exactly is the standard used?

[micromoog]

For canadians and any other _englsih_ speaking people out there

I'm sorry, what language was that again?

Re:What exactly is the standard used?

[TedCheshireAcad]

ISO-1337

Re:What exactly is the standard used?

[pmz]

"raquetball"

This is the correct spelling, even in the USA. I have never seen "racketball" before.

Also, both "cheque" and "check" are acceptible in the USA. It's just that "check" is the more popular usage.

Re:What exactly is the standard used?

[pmz]

Did the check clear? :-)

Any certification program worth anything would look beyond this fact and only certify paying customers that actually meet the criteria. A certification program can still keep the money and say "too bad, come back and try again later."

This isn't a Microsoft .NET benchmark, you know.

Re:What exactly is the standard used?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Che-kwuh?" How is throwing in a "qu" that isn't pronounced "kw" any more valid English. The Norman invasion was how many centuries ago, and we're still using horrid French spellings?

Re:What exactly is the standard used?

[Alan Shield]

For canadians and any other _englsih_ speaking people out there

I'm sorry, what language was that again?

It's the language spoken in _Englnad_, what else.

Getting worse?

[TheIzzy]

Makes me wonder what sort of "protection from liability suits" these seals will get exactly. It may just be me, but I don't think antiterrorism products need this sort of freedom.

Re: Getting worse?

[Black Parrot]

> Makes me wonder what sort of "protection from liability suits" these seals will get exactly. It may just be me, but I don't think antiterrorism products need this sort of freedom.

Yeah, but it's yet another convenient way the Bush Administration can exploit 9/11 as an excuse to hand out some more corporate welfare without raising too much of an outcry.

Re:Getting worse?

[kcbrown]

Makes me wonder what sort of "protection from liability suits" these seals will get exactly.

Absolutely none, of course. Just like airplane certification doesn't buy the airplane manufacturer any liability protection, even though certification costs tens to hundreds of millions of dollars and is required by law...

will Halliburton have to apply for the seal?

[kaltkalt]

or will they just get it automatically for whatever products/services they want?

Re:will Halliburton have to apply for the seal?

[setzman]

A little Basic...

01 A$="CHENEY"
02 B$="VICE PRESIDENT"
03 IF A$=B$ THEN GOTO 05
04 ELSE GOTO 07
05 PRINT "HALIBURTON GETS AUTO-APPROVAL"
06 GOTO 08
07 PRINT "HALIBURTON AND OTHERS GO THROUGH PROCESS"
08 END

Re:will Halliburton have to apply for the seal?

[beacher]

You know with all this apocolyptical nonsense about terrorism and readiness, you should at least have the foresight to do it right... Two things will survive a full scale nuclear war.. Cockroaches and COBOL. Plan for the future. Get your seal.

-B

Ok now we need to stop

[AvengerXP]

By letting ourselves drown in fear, we give the terrorists exactly what they want. To scare us. Stop talking about terrorists, stop saying everything is because of them, showing their faces. Do not live in terror, because then all is lost.

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[DAldredge]

You are only saying that because you "SUPPORT THE TERRORISTS!"

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[Gr33nNight]

Fuck terror.

/me throws away his condoms.

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[aSiTiC]

Have you watched Bowling for Columbine? Terrorists and Governments beget each other, without terror the citizens wouldn't need someone to protect them.

As if that's the only reason for a government, your statement simplifies the reality in almost the same ridiculous (as much as it may resonate with some) way as Moore's movie does.

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[AvengerXP]

I'm not saying we should disregard the terrorist threat. But this is blowing out of proportions.

Everything is about them. You know the big blackout? Ya terrorists. Tomorrow theres gonna be more airplanes flying into buildings? Sure. Oh and the terrorists have a lot of nuclear warheads that can travel 3000kms, sure. What the government are saying is as much "terrorism" as just blowing a bomb inside a crowded cafe. It strikes fear into the hearts of people with dubious facts.

Fight with useful tools, dont let "Terrorist-Proof" be just another corporate catch-phrase.

PS : Never watched bowling for columbine, but the guy is a major jackass, i'll give you that.

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[EverDense]

Fuck terror.

/me throws away his condoms.

Just keep posting to SlashDot, it'll have the same effect.
(i.e. you will not be getting laid)

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[Christianfreak]

Oh brother. I'll admit I haven't seen the movie but if he's asserting that governments only exist because of terrorism then he's an idiot. Governments exist to enforce laws and provide or oversee infrastructure. Sure there is corruption in the system because its made of people, and people are inherently corrupt. Sure lets get rid of our government and you can also say good-bye to most if not all of our means of transportation, communication, research, social services, the list goes on and on and on. Everything is touched in some way by the government, it keeps the system together and coherent. Now you can believe that people are going to band together and make all the stuff we have now work but one of two things is going to happen. 1) Those people will form some kind of leadership, develop rules of conduct and enforce them on others ... yeah they'll form a new government and in the end it will suffer all the same problems, they'll just be magnified. OR 2) the more likely outcome, infighting will grow out of hand do to lack of laws and codes of conduct and your left with rampant vigilantism as people obtain weapons and seek "justice" for the crimes they commit against each other.

Terrorism isn't bred out of governments, its bred out of dissent usually the dissent of people who are too ignorant to realize who their true enemy is. Witness the Middle East ... everyone is so angry and full of hate for Israel and the US they are blind to what their own governments do to them! I'm not defending all of our actions in the region (we had no business being in Iraq other than to settle old scores) but anyone blaming the entire system to what amounts to failings of foriegn policy contributes to the problem. Anyone who blames the "Right" or the "Left" or the "Democrats" or the "Republicans" contributes to the problem. Because the problem is corrupt leaders no matter what side of the aisle and its our job to vote those people out and vote in better people. The system will work if we do something about it rather than talking about on /. how we just need to get rid of it all.

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[chewy_2000]

Bowling for Columbine is full of crap.

I suppose there are some good points in it, but the fact that it's almost entirely fiction really puts me off.

I agree with some of the larger opinions Moore expresses, but the fact that he's a toss and the facts are very unreliable kills any credibility for me. The ending made me physically cringe.

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[Anonymous Coward]

The ending made me physically cringe.
seeing Bush's face on the tube every day makes me cringe.

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[Anonymous Coward]

Moore has made a lot of vicious, baseless assertions about the September
11th attacks. The most vicious one is stated in his internet editorial
(which he removed from his website after it caused controversy) where he
states "They did not deserve to die. If someone did this to get back at
Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who did not vote for
him! Boston, New York, D.C. and the plane's destination of California -
these were places that voted against Bush!"

When did anyone suggest that voting patterns mattered to the terrorists
responsible for 9/11?

Moore seems to imply that the terrorists should've killed those who lived in
states where Bush got majority votes.

Moore also states in reaction to 9/11, "In just eight months, Bush gets the
whole world back to hating us again. He withdraws from the Kyoto agreement,
walks us out of the Durban conference on racism, insists on restarting the
arms race - you name it and Baby Bush has blown it all."

Contrary to Moore's baseless rants, the outside worlds hated the U.S. long
before "Baby Bush" became President and they hated the U.S. no matter who
was President.

And to call the conference in Durban a "conference on racism" is a generous
misnomer. That conference was nothing more than a "hate Israel and the U.S.
rally." The Chinese suppression of Tibetans, Iraqis suppression of the
Kurds, ethnic warfare in Rwanda - these racial issues weren't even major
issues at the anti-Semitic, anti-American "conference on racism" at Durban.

Also in reaction to 9/11, Michael Moore posed a stupid rhetorical question
when he asked "When will we ever get to the point that we realize we will be
more secure when the rest of the world isn't living in poverty so we can
have nice running shoes?"

The September 11 attacks had nothing do with poverty. The hijackers were
college-educated Islamic fanatics, not uneducated slum dwellers! And if the
September 11th attack happened in reaction to world poverty, why is it that
none of those hijackers came from non-Islamic third World nations like Laos,
Haiti, Mozambique, etc? If Moore cared so much about world poverty, why
didn't he demand that the Arab oil barons as well as bin Laden invest their
billions in improving conditions in the Middle East?

The terrorism we saw in September had nothing to do with world poverty and
everything to do with religious fanaticism. Islamic zealots terrorize Jews
in Israel, Hindus in India, Christians in Sudan, Indonesia, etc, and they
terrorized the U.S., and for Moore or anyone to blame it all on world
poverty and nice running shoes is ridiculous.

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[nihilogos]

Sure lets get rid of our government and you can also say good-bye to most if not all of our means of transportation, communication, research, social services, the list goes on and on and on.

Much of this is privatized anyway. Since we wouldn't be paying riduculous amounts of tax we'd all have extra money to pay for these things directly. And we'd probably get better value for our cash.

. I'll admit I haven't seen the movie but if he's asserting that governments only exist because of terrorism then he's an idiot.
No, he's not. He was commenting on the culture of fear that is propagated by the US media and government. Chronologically it goes something like Afro-Americans, communists, drugs, terrorism ... be afraid! Hell, the country was settled by people with religious persucution complexes.

Witness the Middle East ... everyone is so angry and full of hate for Israel and the US they are blind to what their own governments do to them!
You admitted you hadn't seen Bowling for Columbine , am I right in guessing that you've never been to the Middle East either? People in the Middle east are people exactly like you or me, they are not all angry and full of hate and they are not blind to their own governments. They undoubtable have a much better idea about what is going on in their own region than you do. Just as you shouldn't rely on some random Slashdot poster to tell you about a movie, you shouldn't rely on your local media to tell you about the Middle East. Incidently the US also breeds terrorists - people who bomb abortion clinics, Timothy McVeigh, the Unabomber. Are you going to say that people in the US are all full of hate?

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[overbom]

AvengerXP, why do you hate america? /facetious

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[Cyno]

All that is lost is the comforting life some ignorant masses could have enjoyed. Us anarchists and communists love the smell of fear and terror and revolution. >;)

Wherever it may lead, it is change, and maybe in some ways even progress. I believe it will eventually lead to utopia. When people collectively figure out what they want out of life.

Maybe one group of people will declare their way of life superior and commit mass genocide on the rest who can't agree. But in the end, when they are the only people living, it will be their utopia.

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[Anonymous Coward]

Governments exist to enforce laws

Governments MAKE laws... and they don't provide anything : they control and decide for the rest of us, whether we like it or not. They want power to shape society the way they want and that's it. No I'm not a moron who's angry because I have to pay taxes but only someone who wish I could live in a place where my government would be only a representative instead of a "leader". If you think you live in a democracy you're an idiot.

...they'll form a new government and in the end it will suffer all the same problems, they'll just be magnified.

Why "magnified"? Do you really think we now have the best form of goverment possible?

infighting will grow out of hand do to lack of laws and codes of conduct and your left with rampant vigilantism as people obtain weapons and seek "justice" for the crimes they commit against each other.

You mean like a "wild west" kind of thing? Well history has shown there's a lot of people who prefer this idea to a strong government. Personally I don't but that's irrelevant.

everyone is so angry and full of hate for Israel and the US they are blind to what their own governments do to them

Their abusing government can stay in power because they receive help from the US government. And after that you wonder why they hate America? As for Israel, they hate them because they stole their land (and still do) and regard Arabs like an inferior species. Sure there's a lot of Israeli who don't think this way but if you believe you live in a "democracy" then you are responsible for the actions of your government whether you voted for him or not. If you believe you live in a "democracy" you're not an innocent.

its our job to vote those people out and vote in better people

And what do you do when there is no "better people"? The problem is the system not a few "corrupt leaders". If you want to do something about it, your only solution is terrorism. With a little chance this will lead to a full revolution and maybe we could end up living in a true democracy. But I suspect you're more concerned about your security than your freedom.

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[Jonner]

So, which are you, a communist or an anarchist? ;) That's got to be the most extreme social darwinism I've ever heard of. To put it another way, "shoot 'em all and let natural selection sort 'em out."

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[Gr33nNight]

Yeah, I get that in the bars & clubs alot.

Hot Girl : Hi!
Me: Heys, hows it going?
Hot Girl : Wait, you post to slashdot, dont you?
Me: ??
Hot Girl runs.

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[Cyno]

I think I'm an anarchist. Not convinced communism is a bad thing yet, but most people seem to think it is. I just don't like money, I think its a waste of time.

To put it another way, "shoot 'em all and let natural selection sort 'em out."

I really wish we could find a way to work together instead of manipulate eachother for profit or war. We seem to preach tolerance and BS, then go and bomb a people like they're some alien race. Its really very sad.

But if we can't all get along here on Earth, maybe we can in Heaven. Or wherever our actions send us.

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[FreedomOfSpea-MMNnnf]

~~~~~~~"Incidently the US also breeds terrorists - people who bomb abortion clinics, Timothy McVeigh, the Unabomber. Are you going to say that people in the US are all full of hate?"~~~~

...don't forget who created Bin Laden himself That would've been old the Reaganites and his cronies: Bush Sr. Rumsfeld et al... (Not speaking metaphoricaly here, these people gave him the power not just the hatred of the U.S., alot of folks hate the States but it wasn't untill the CIA started to fund these people that they got the Power to make use of the hatred).

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[Jonner]

I asked because it seems difficult to reconcile communism and anarchy. Communism requires a very orderly society. Most of the states that claim to be communist also claim to be republics, but seldom have a real representative government. Communist states that last tend to be authoritarian or totalitarian. Isn't capitalism closer to anarchy than communism?

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[Cyno]

Well, I don't think one man can be intelligent enough to construct a society that takes care of everyone. I think it requires the cooperative effort of everyone. Anarchy might be a little extreme, but I think government should be limitted to a very small set of responsibilities. And people should for whatever organization is necessary to provide for everyone. We have so many examples of how a company can be organized, it just takes a little creativity to imagine how we could organize them into a form that provides for everyone, makes the jobs more enjoyable and much more efficient, and takes money out of the picture. But I'm a sys admin, not a politician. So its all just a theory 'n shit and I'm sure it will never be attempted. Nor do I think it should be. Cuz what do I know.

Re:Ok now we need to stop

[knghtrider]

As for Israel, they hate them because they stole their land.

Wrong...GOD gave that land to Abraham (Abram) and his descendants. (Genesis 12:1-3).

Now the Lord said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Would Counterstrike count?

[naztafari]

This would help shield Sierra/Valve from the asshat incidents of "teen stabs girl for taunting him as a loser" after repeatedly getting killed in game of Counterstrike at LAN gaming etablishment...

Re:Would Counterstrike count?

[naztafari]

Heheh... just imagine "Counterstrike: Condition Zero" with "Department of Homeland Security Approved!" on the box... Hahah...

Re:Would Counterstrike count?

[Anonymous Coward]

It probably would get the seal of approval because you can't play the terrorists, only fight them.

This has been my major problem with CS - the terrorists are "terrorists" not "freedom fighters".

I am not saying all terrorists are freedom fighters - most are scum. But some are not.....Nelson Mandella was once labeled a terrorist, think about that.

Re:Would Counterstrike count?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nelson Mandela was just taken off the US's list of 'evil poeple' (I forget the name of it right now as its 7.00am and Ive not been to bed yet) LAST WEEK!

Re:Would Counterstrike count?

[happyhippy]

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=3&art_id=c t20030810102700522T600578&set_id=1

Parent is right. I did a google to refute his claim and up pops a couple of articles. Its from a month ago, not last week.
Jesus, Nelson Mandela? Thats fucked up.

LZW

[sirmalloc]

i guess Unisys considers LZW an anti-terrorism compression algorithm....

Re: Tacosnotting is dying

[Anonymous Coward]

being replaced by said shit inhaling

Side Effect

[webword]

"...businesses with antiterrorism products for which they are unable to find insurers to provide liability coverage are lining up to seek the Homeland Security Department's seal of approval."

One important side effect of this activity is that it legitimizes the Homeland Security Department. Any time faith and/or judgment are derived from an organization, it makes that organization more real, and more powerful. This is very similar to the idea of demonizing an enemy. If your enemy is vague and hard to define and hard to describe (Al Queda), then you need to find a figurehead to present to the people. It is hard to teach people to hate something vague, but it is much easier to hate a single person, e.g., Bin Laden or Sadam. (It is also very easy to talk about how certain types of people are evil, but I'm getting too far off topic with that.) In any event, as more companies and people talk about the homeland security department, the more power it will have, and the more money it will get.

Re:Side Effect

[mrpuffypants]

In the last few years Emmanuel Goldstein has become a growing analogy for me in policy debates. The Parent post sums it up nicely; an undefined "boogeyman" is great to launch a war against. It's also a lot easier to flip-flop and change your mind when the enemy is "everywhere"

"We are at war with East Eurasia!" becomes "We are at war with Oceania!"
and
"We are at war against al Qaeda!" becomes "We are at war with Iraq!"

Re:Side Effect

[dillon_rinker]

Don't forget about Star Wars...the Rebellion that everyone loves was merely a tool of the emperor. By creating a crisis, he precipitated his own powerbase.

Re:Side Effect

[Anonymous Coward]

Which crack smoking moderator modded this garbage up?

How is the Department of Homeland Security not legimitate? What the fuck kind of claim is that?

And how is Al Queda hard to describe? Fucking Osama bin Laden lays it out every time he whips out another video. How fucking dense are you?

It's hard to believe how slashdotters can be brilliant computer nerds, but completely dense, America-hating, Terrorist-sympathizing, bleeding hearts also.

BTW: I'm replying to a +5 interesting, so if you mod me down, you must mod down the parent also or your are abusing your mod privileges.

Re:Side Effect

[qtp]

"We are at war against al Qaeda!" becomes "We are at war with Iraq!"

Except now we are at war with al Qaeda again, erm, I mean "We have always been at war with al Qaeda!"

It's nice to see a 1984 reference from a poster who actually read the damn book.

Re:Side Effect

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, "your are" abusing the English language, so I guess that makes you guys even.

Re:Side Effect

[freeweed]

Except now we are at war with al Qaeda again, erm, I mean "We have always been at war with al Qaeda!"

Odd, I'd swear we went to war with them after they KILLED 3000 CIVILIANS. It was almost 2 years ago, around September 11th or so.

I've yet to hear a government official of any kind claim that 'we've always been at war with Al Qaeda'. Iraq, on the other hand, ever since.. wait for it.. they invaded Kuwait.

See, in 1984, the government lied to its people about the past, and went so far as to remove evidence of the real past. Anyone can pick up a history book/surf the web/watch TV and learn what I've just said.

Slight difference. And yes, I've read the book, about a dozen times now.

Re:Side Effect

[Happy go Lucky]

Odd, I'd swear we went to war with them after they KILLED 3000 CIVILIANS. It was almost 2 years ago, around September 11th or so.

Back up about a decade.

Our first brush with al-Qaeda on US soil was the truck bombing of the WTC back in (1993?)

Prior to then, I'm not sure they were really on our map. A few of them may have benefitted from the various and sundry weapons we dumped on Afghanistan during the 1980's when the Soviets were trying to 0wn the place.

I'm having a hard time connecting a certain work of fiction (yes, Virginia, fiction) copyrighted in 1949 with today's government press releases.

Re:Side Effect

[xpurple]

How true.

From people on the street that I've talked to about this they don't ever seem to remember when the change took place, or if there was even a change. They just know we are at war with Iraq, and we have always been at war with Iraq (at least as long as their conditioned minds can remember).

We must remember that most of what we see and hear from the media and or government is more than likely propaganda.

Re:Side Effect

[DavittJPotter]

Odd, I'd swear that there was no hard evidence that al Qaeda actually committed the WTC attack. The day after 9/11, we bombed Afghanistan. Al Qaeda put out a statement that said, in effect, "We did not do this. We applaud those who did, but we did not do this"(As reported on MSNBC on 9/12/2001). Strange, for a terrorist group usually gladly claims an attack as part of their glorious / "shocking and awesome" strike against their enemies.

So, let's look at this: the CIA trained and set up Bin Laden, downplayed their knowledge of the 1993 attack at the World Trade Center, created somewhat tenous connections between al-Qaeda (whatever spelling, fuck it) and Hussein. We can't find any WMD's, so we begin to hunt for al-Qaeda again. Oh, and by the way, while we're at this, we're going to really fuck up overtime laws, but remember, You're Fighting Terrorism! The Department of Homeland Security (DepLuv) will let you know when it's safe to come out from under your bed.

Yeah, that's completely different from 1984's premise.

Re:Side Effect

[Alex]

See, in 1984, the government lied to its people about the past, and went so far as to remove evidence of the real past. Anyone can pick up a history book/surf the web/watch TV and learn what I've just said.

But they
don't do they?

And from the look of this Bin Laden has already won.

Re:Side Effect

[mpe]

Odd, I'd swear that there was no hard evidence that al Qaeda actually committed the WTC attack.

There is not that much hard evidence that Al-Qaeda has done most of the things it is accused of. Effectivly "Al-Qaeda did it" is the response the (Western) press has to a recent set of attacks where there is no claim of responsibility and little (if any) hard evidence.

Re:Side Effect

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's nice to see a 1984 reference from a poster who actually read the damn book."

We don't need to, we can watch it live. It would be too depressing to read about it now.

Re:Side Effect

[leifm]

From what I have read, and it could very well be bullshit, our gov wanted to attack Afganistan prior to Sept 11, that just gave them a good excuse. Something about an oil pipeline and Halliburton(sp).

Re:Side Effect

[pmz]

It's also a lot easier to flip-flop and change your mind when the enemy is "everywhere"

You mean like the government saying "we can say now that we've effectively disabled Al Queda and it is a diminished threat" (sometime earlier this year or last year) and then saying "we suspect that Al Queda is behind the bombings in Iraq." (last week)?

How about the the WMD fiasco?

Re:Side Effect

[spitzak]

Part of 1984 was changing history to suit current facts, and you are doing that.

We did not bomb Afghanistan on 9/12. We bombed them over 2 weeks later.

Also it is pretty certain Al-Qaeda did it, you even sort of say so. The most extreme conspiracy theories I have heard all claim that Bush (or whoever you want to be the real evil party) duped the Al-Qaeda terrorists into doing it.

Re:Side Effect

[Anonymous Coward]

duh, they even told us that every news org in Iraq had a psy-ops man assigned to them.

Re:Side Effect

[Anonymous Coward]

funny how that came around and bit him in the ass in the long run. Kinda like how supporting Saddam, Pinochet, Bin Laden and others seem to come around and bite us in the ass.

PTO, the sequel

[Lord Grey]

Why does this make me think that this is going to end up like the PTO's apparent inability to weed out the crap from the legitimate requests?

Is it because the Department of Homeland Security isn't even remotely qualified for that task?

Naw, couldn't be....

WindowsXP - US DOHS Seal of Approval!

[kaltkalt]

Who wants to bet me that MS gets this lame ass seal of approval on all their insecure, dangerous-to-national-security products? And of course, they won't be liable (federal pre-emption) for any damage their software actually causes. How clever.

Re:WindowsXP - US DOHS Seal of Approval!

[Jeremi]

You're assuming that MS is liable for anything now. You did read all of that 20-page click-through license agreement when you installed Windows, didn't you?

Re:WindowsXP - US DOHS Seal of Approval!

[kaltkalt]

well that's questionable because, at least without UCITA, there is no consideration for those additional terms which occurred after purchase. So they're invalid. I think two states have adopted UCITA, so there MS would arguably be off the hook. But everyplace that has not adopted UCITA could hold MS liable, as those additional terms are not binding. But if they get federal "anti-terror seal of approval" then it can be argued that any liability suits against them are pre-empted by federal law.

What about M$FT?

[saturndude]

Will Microsoft apply? Will their products pass the certification tests?

Come on, we're all wondering.

Bullshit.

[sfled]

Perforate the sneaky S.O.B.'s ass first, worry about the getting your 'certi' later.

What Microsoft needs ...

[ArmorFiend]

Microsoft needs to apply for a pro-terrorism certification. "This product meets or exceeds terrorist requirements for simple security loopholes: buffer overflows, insecure defaults, and more".

Re:What Microsoft needs ...

[MisterFancypants]

Microsoft needs to apply for a pro-terrorism certification. "This product meets or exceeds terrorist requirements for simple security loopholes: buffer overflows, insecure defaults, and more".

Don't you realize terrorists could give a rats ass about computer security? Who cares about hacking a database of credit cards compared to, say, blowing up hundreds of people with a suicide bomb?

The whole "information terrorist" scare is nothing more than a smokescreen the government is using to give them tools to skirt any type of online privacy.

Slashdot Certification

[R33MSpec]

I for one would like to see Slashdot get certified as an anti-terrorist product.

Any 'pro-terrorist' website would be rendered useless after an article posting on the front page.

Re:Slashdot Certification

[identity0]

Yeah, we really could use a (-1, Terrorist) mod around here, what with the goatse links and trolls. It would not suprise me a bit if some of those 'Anonymous Cowards' were trolling for a promised reward of 40 petrified Natalie Portmans in paradise. Too bad they're not 'suicide flamers'.

Other possible mods: (-1, Thoughcrime) (+1, Patriot) (+2, Doubleplusgood Post) (+1, With Us) (-1, Against Us)

Re:Slashdot Certification

[Jonner]

You forgot (-2, Evil).

Problem approving services

[rzbx]

"Consider the marketing angle. "It will make it easier to sell," says Bryan Ware, chief executive of Digital Sandbox of Reston, Va., which has sold its terrorism risk-assessment software to the U.S. Department of Justice, among others."

This is one thing I find strange, and

"...wants its members' Internet services certified..."

I'm not so sure how this can be done. Software, interenet services, and telecommunications are all services that behave very differently from products. A company must continually stay on top of everything to provide reliable, safe, and er, I guess anti-terroristic (?) services. Sure, they could have some experts go through everything and put down a seal of approval, but if the company cuts back a little here and a little there, they could fall behind. I guess they want to push it for insurance purposes. Am I missing something here? Please correct me if I misread.

Caveat emptor

[violet16]

So look out for that seal, kids: it's your guarantee the product is so dangerous the manufacturer couldn't get product liability insurance!

Re:Caveat emptor

[Lord Dreamshaper]

Happy Fun Ball (tm) is first product to be certified.

Don't taunt Happy Fun Ball (tm)

I love it!

[shivianzealot]

"Certified to fight terrorism."

The way the word it, it sounds to me like those Tom Ridge puppeteers want to issue some letters of marques and reprisal is in THIS century!

Truly Useless and Quite Opportunistic

[Dukeofshadows]

Homeland Security couldn't even say what caused the blackout in New York except that it wasn't terrorism. I, for one, will more likely avoid products with that seal on them instead of running to purchase them.

I hope Microsoft Windows is the first product to get certified since I find that it and Homeland Security have quite a bit in common (including the facts that neither does its advertised job and both hold enough power to quash anything that gets in their way)

Re:Truly Useless and Quite Opportunistic

[B3ryllium]

You're forgetting that Homeland Security advises AGAINST using Microsoft products.

Re:Truly Useless and Quite Opportunistic

[hpavc]

yes what we need is the 'terrorist friendly' seal to go along with this.

Re:Truly Useless and Quite Opportunistic

[micromoog]

Homeland Security couldn't even say what caused the blackout in New York except that it wasn't terrorism.

Don't forget that they were saying that only a couple of hours after the blackouts started. They didn't even start to have a meaningful explanation of what did cause the problem until the next day, but somehow they were so sure after 2 hours that it wasn't terrorism?

The DepHomSec constantly needs to justify its exististence. "See, no terrorism! We're doin' our job right good!"

Re:Truly Useless and Quite Opportunistic

[Anonymous Coward]

Right... that's why they'll be using them, hmm?

Re:Truly Useless and Quite Opportunistic

[poot_rootbeer]

Homeland Security couldn't even say what caused the blackout in New York except that it wasn't terrorism. ...which is exactly the extent of their duties.

They don't run the power grid. They don't and can't know how to troubleshoot the power grid. Those duties belong to the power companies.

Vilifying Homeland Security for not identifying the cause of the blackout is like blaming your dentist for not diagnosing the cause of your lower back pain.

Re:Truly Useless and Quite Opportunistic

[Anonymous Coward]

"Homeland security" is doing far more to harm this country than terrorists ever could. Things like harassing foreign visitors from visa wavier nations will damage our economy, both because of tourism and it will be harder to run multi-national companies if it's a pain for people to travel here on business. HomeSec won't even say how this harassment is supposed to help, but they admit it wouldn't have prevented 9/11. What's worse is they've dismantled the air marshall program to pay for this harassment, and that would have prevented 9/11.

I refuse to fly anymore, not because I'm afraid of potential terrorists, but I'm afraid of HomeSec.

9/11 was a major victory for the terrorists, not because of the loss of life and property, but because they put the noose of the department of homeland security around the neck of the US. Every terrorist attack or threat harms the US by tightening that noose.

I haven't even mentioned the privacy issues yet; thanks to modern technology, the US is very rapidly becoming far worse than russia ever was under the KGB. Police no longer need a court order for a wiretap, do you think the carnivore program really went away? How about TIA? The US is in extreme danger of becoming a totalitarian regime; HomeSec is the greatest threat facing the nation right now.

Re:Truly Useless and Quite Opportunistic

[Anonymous Coward]

its generally easier to declare something as not terrorism than to figure out what actually did cause it.

terrorism generally ammounts to large explosions and such.

not a grid essentially falling like dominoes because one too many toasters were plugged in.

it was easy to realize there were no explosions ala typical terrorism.

then the electrical engineers need to figure out, what thehell happened.

balanced budget

[Lord Dreamshaper]

So Emperor George is going to balance the budget from royalties and kickbacks (in *this* administration?! Never!) from the White Housekeeping Seal of Approval? Reassuring to see how far they've come in 2 yrs of making the country safer...

Re:balanced budget

[Lord Dreamshaper]

how can it be flamebait? check the comments, I'm preaching to the choir...

What is suspicious behavior?

[beacher]

I'll tell you what suspicious behavior is... When a terrorist overlord has factions in 82 countries wages a campaign of shock and awwwww upon a target demographic....

The squeaky wheels of justice need greasing...
-B

September 1st?

[BiggerIsBetter]

Should've been September 11th.

Re:September 1st?

[HarryCallahan]

I was thinking April 1st, are you guys for real?

Please mod down, tainted copy

[Anonymous Coward]

This article is tainted. Also, there is no way that site is being slashdotted.
This poster did modify the article, adding a paragraph at least. I didn't read the entire thing he posted, skimmed and noticed the taint.

Developers?

[Waffle Iron]

Will this program apply to individual developers as well as products? I think I could qualify because many people have told me that I'm certifiable.

Re:Developers?

[Anonymous Coward]

with a post that stupid, you certainly are :P

They could call it...

[Anonymous Coward]

MCSE

This will be the most expensive version of underwriter's laboratories ever seen.

re: What is a Haz Mat Suit? When do I need one?

[naztafari]

What is a Haz Mat Suit? When do I need one?

We highly recommend the H.E.V. hazardous environment suit with optional jump module.

Will help you escape exploding buildings in case of attack by alien terrorists from the planet Xen.

A must have for every research scientist working in an anomalous materials lab!

Does it then become a crime...

[setzman]

To use software and services that don't have the seal? Wouldn't you be supporting terrorism if you didn't use products the government approved?

Re:Does it then become a crime...

[pmz]

Wouldn't you be supporting terrorism if you didn't use products the government approved?

Actually, yes, because choosing uncertified products allows you to sue their makers! Certified products allow the status quo to continue and fester indefinitely.

So, seeking accountability == terrorism. I think this is a wonderful idea!!!

How long...

[i.r.id10t]

... until Smith & Wesson, Colt, Taurus, Glock, et. al file their applications?

I'll give you seal of approval...

[bersl2]

from the look-for-the-special-logo dept.

Maybe we should give sites that survive the Slashdot effect our own seal of approval... in the form of a 1600x1200 TIFF...

(Note: Yeah, I know: TIFFs don't work without a plugin. It's just funnier this way.)

Re:I'll give you seal of approval...

[sharkey]

in the form of a 1600x1200 TIFF...

No, a 1600x1200 32-bit color BMP.

Reminds me of Windows

[pkunzipper]

Other than a sticker on a piece of shit which allows for dodging some lawsuits, this idea is useless.

Are we now going to have rubber spokes on bicycles? No more shoe laces, short-strap velcro only?

Is this the best these Washington funded "think-tanks" can come up with. Pleeeease... scare me with somethign else, becuase that's all it is.

"Try all new Colgate Fresh with Extra Stregth Whitening, but still Terrorist Proof!"

Re:Reminds me of Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL you made a funny about Windows!

Oh man thats fantasy

[Crashmarik]

The products may or may not help against terrorists. But, there's no way some seal of approval from the executive branch is going to stop lawyers from suing. Terrorists are relatively reasonable people in comparison to lawyers.

Internet services?

[qtp]

An Internet trade group representing Verizon Communications and other companies wants its members' Internet services certified because they play a "unique and pivotal role as a conduit for deployment of antiterrorism technologies."

My bet is that the certification requirement for internet services amounts to "We spy on our users."

Let me get this straight..

[Anonymous Coward]

I must be mising something ...

What's happening is basically .. insecure can products get homeland security certification?

things should be the other way around.

This is a terrible idea

[SargeZT]

Consumers will soon start seeing "Homeland Security Department Recommended!" Stickers on products, and immediatly flock to those items. And, the Homeland Security Department won't be likely to issue more than one to similar products. This will result in decreased business for non certified companies, and result in a monopoly in anti-terrorist provisions.

My 2 Cents.

Re:This is a terrible idea

[Anonymous Coward]

I just want to make sure my deoderant is approved by the Department of Homeland Security.

Re:This is a terrible idea

[in7ane]

The best part of this is that it will be the shoddy products that can not be covered by liability insurance that will have this. And believe me, no foreign firm will get this certification.

Re:This is a terrible idea

[pmz]

result in a monopoly in anti-terrorist provisions.

I don't think so, at least for most products. Duct tape is duct tape is duct tape. For other products, like gas masks, I would think the market for them is already pretty mature (1.5 million masks for the Army, 150,000 to paranoid citizens). The "anti-terrorism" market would just be a basic extension of the already entrenched military and security markets.

Colt 1991

[RevDobbs]

I hope Colt seeks approval for some of their .45 semi-autos. When confronted with terrorists, I can't think of anything else I'd rather have.

Well, besides my blankie and my mommy, anyway.

Re:Colt 1991

[Happy go Lucky]

I hope Colt seeks approval for some of their .45 semi-autos. When confronted with terrorists, I can't think of anything else I'd rather have.

Don't laugh just yet. About ten years ago, some ammunition manufacturer (Speer?) began marketing a "counterterrorism bullet." I'm not entirely sure what the physical properties of terrorist bodies are that might require a special bullet. I was always under the impression that the usual duty ammo would work well enough.

Well, besides my blankie and my mommy, anyway.

Are you suggesting that the sky is falling and you want your mommy?

Re:Colt 1991

[RevDobbs]

About ten years ago, some ammunition manufacturer (Speer?) began marketing a "counterterrorism bullet."

Possibly frangible bullets? I remember reading about using them in airline and urban applications; the bullet fragments quickly after hitting a hard surface, reducing the chance of putting a hole in a pressurized cabin, or hitting someone in the next apartment.

Re:Colt 1991

[Happy go Lucky]

Possibly frangible bullets? I remember reading about using them in airline and urban applications; the bullet fragments quickly after hitting a hard surface, reducing the chance of putting a hole in a pressurized cabin, or hitting someone in the next apartment.

Maybe, but I doubt it.

I've never heard of an agency actually issuing frangibles. Sure, they won't overpenetrate, but they generally won't penetrate enough either. And oftentimes, they're downloaded, which causes reliability problems in semiautos.

Most agencies, when they have their officers fly armed on commercial aircraft, stick with conventional duty ammunition.

But I could be wrong. It's happened once or twice before.

Time for beddie byes

[HarryCallahan]

San Diego-based Qualcomm argued in a letter to the DHS that its software to run mobile communications devices should qualify because the 450,000 commercial trucks equipped with such devices "are uniquely positioned to report terrorist events."

Will someone please get the US a nice warm glass of milk and some cookies so he can relax, lie down, and get some well needed rest

Re:Time for beddie byes

[kypm]

New Terrorist Repellant Blankie! You Too can hide under this Homeland Security Approved, Downy soft Blankie! Flashlight and night tremors not included. Use as directed. Product flammable, keep away from flames and bombs and things that go boom. Retail Price $100.00 Buy Now And Save your SPECIAL price $200.00

Terrorism Sells

[Valen0]

I think its funny how our culture has so rapidly changed in the last few years. Since the 2001 attack, you can practically get away with selling anything if you claim it makes you "safe" from "terrorism". Even the Bush Administration has used this war to repeatedly justify its misguided "War on Terror" campaigns and ominous "Homeland Security Department".

I personally think it is sad that America has let the terrorist win. Thanks to media and government hysteria, terrorists have become the "boogie man" that everyone seems to fear. In sustaining this hysteria, the US Government has created an environment where they can do practically anything as long as it is keeping the country "safe" from "terrorism".

The good news is that this environment is starting to slowly change. Some of the government's massive corruption is starting to get questioned by members of Congress. I think this marks the first steps in stopping the legacy of tyranny the Bush Administration has caused and restoring the values on which America was founded on.

Re:Terrorism Sells

[Mnemennth]

Mmmm... it sure does. And on the flip side, it makes a lovely diversion from the actions of Congress as they systematically gut our Constitution and Bill of Rights...

Mnem
"Errors have been made. Others will be blamed."

Re:Terrorism Sells

[Oddly_Drac]

Subtle change, see if you can spot it;

"I think its funny how our culture has so rapidly changed in the last few years. Since the 2001 attack, you can practically get away with selling anything if you claim it makes you "safe" from "communism". Even the Bush Administration has used this war to repeatedly justify its misguided "Cold war" campaigns and ominous "National Security Agency".

I personally think it is sad that America has let the communist win. Thanks to media and government hysteria, communists have become the "boogie man" that everyone seems to fear. In sustaining this hysteria, the US Government has created an environment where they can do practically anything as long as it is keeping the country "safe" from "communism".

The good news is that this environment is starting to slowly change. Some of the government's massive corruption is starting to get questioned by members of Congress. I think this marks the first steps in stopping the legacy of tyranny the Bush Administration has caused and restoring the values on which America was founded on."

I'm not taking the piss out of the original poster, but I'm just pointing out that the erection of a fear model means that the budgets keep flowing. While many people today shake their heads when confronted with McCarthy, Nixon and Hoover, they're letting these archetypes arise again and again.

Re:Terrorism Sells

[pmz]

Thanks to media and government hysteria, terrorists have become the "boogie man" that everyone seems to fear.

I don't live in fear. My attitude is more or less "fuck the terrorists; more people died today in car accidents and from crack overdoses."

No matter what our administration says, Al Queda is like a mosquito bite in light of other issues. I'd much rather they let the Palistinians and Israelis blow the shit out of each other once and for all, so we don't have to watch their petty bickering any longer and let civilized people continue with their lives (religious zealotry aside, their pot shots and name calling really do appear petty).

Yeah it's flamebait, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Will Boeing get it?

(Yes, that's tasteless. But I had a friend killed on 9/11 and I'm pretty sure he would have found this funny in a twisted way, so maybe this is a tribute to him.)

Further and further down the rabbit hole...

[NineNine]

This is really fucked up. A Nazi-esque "Homeland Security" dept (sorry about breaking into your house, tapping your phone, seizing your property, and arresting you without a warrant, but Bob's girlfriend's roommate's secretary said you were a terrorist) in the gov't now is going to help select companies with their marketing? What in the FUCK is going on in this country? This makes Nazi Germany seem sane by comparison. Let's throw these fuckers out of the White House next election and return to some kind of sanity.

Re:Further and further down the rabbit hole...

[Anonymous Coward]

Join the ACLU. The democrats won't do shit at this point, except may be for Dean.

Re:Further and further down the rabbit hole...

[gantrep]

How many innocent American Citizens have been rounded up into concentration camps and murdered in gas chambers as a result of the terrorist witchhunt?

Re:Further and further down the rabbit hole...

[dutky]

Oh, only a few thousand, but we don't know the real number because if the government had to reveal who it has secretly arrested THEN THE TERRORISTS HAVE WON!

Re:Further and further down the rabbit hole...

[Anonymous Coward]

"An evil exists that threatens every man, woman and child of this great nation. We must take steps to ensure our domestic security and protect our Homeland."
Adolf Hitler, on the creation of the Gestapo

Re:Further and further down the rabbit hole...

[ratamacue]

What in the FUCK is going on in this country?

Same thing that's been going on since the beginning of time: Power is being abused. It's inevitable. It's guaranteed. History has proven it time and time again, and unfortunately, the people are too willing to forget about it and buy into the propaganda government feeds them.

What is the solution? Limit the power available to government. That is the only possible way to limit the abuse of power. Logically, the smaller the government, the less resources available to them, and the less destruction they are capable of.

Re:Further and further down the rabbit hole...

[Bull999999]

Nazi's also outlawed private ownership of guns. So I guess if you are pro-gun control, you are a Nazi.

Well... I guess Bush needed this...

[Serapth]

Seeing as that moron needs to come up with the 82 billion for his re-election campaign... errrr... I mean, war on terrorism. Now all they need to do is sell certification at a million dollars a piece to 82,000 companies!

Sorry for the flamebait... this stuff, Bush at the top of the list, just get me pissed! If your a democrate... you may atleast find the idea funny ! ;-)

you laugh but

[waspleg]

Think about america's army ,the "recruitment tool" used to get kids interested in being soldiers on frontlines they can't identify on a map. I dunno how many of you have played but the other side always looks like terrorists... imagine if they mandated that kind of narrowing of the spectrum instead of doing it as coy design decision to not ever have kids shooting at americans... i wonder if fritz hollings trolls slashdot...

Interested to see who applies

[nickgrieve]

I wonder if these guys will?

Won't this be a magnet for hacking?

[Anonymous Coward]

If a company's software products were certified I bet everybody would be trying to prove the true weaknesses as fast as possible.

Would this essentially make those who perform the certification the next laughing stock?

Microsoft has shown us that declaring something secure doesn't mean that it actually is.

I certainly hope the certifying individuals have more capacity upstairs than the US patent office when it comes to understanding technology.

Maybe I'm not reading this right...

[LordLucless]

Maybe I'm not reading this right, but the story says the products are immune from liability "when they are purchased by the 22 federal agencies under DHS" and some other branches of government. One of the people angling to get their product (a telecommunications system) sealed says they don't want to be held responsible for mass hysteria caused if the government makes a stupid announcement over their system.

The article compares it to rules currently applying to defence contractors, which, as far as I can tell, come down to "if the government shoots you with a glock, bitch to the government, don't sue glock". I can't see anything wrong with this seal of approval; it means the government is held responsible for how they use these products rather than the manufacturers.

Of course, this should be the way it is with all products all the time. If people use products to do stupid things, it's people, not manufacturers that should be sued. Manufacturers should only be able to be sued if the product does not behave as advertised.

Certificate of homeland unsecurity?

[Endimiao]

That from the guys running Microsoft software in their servers? Thats laughable.

Oh, I have some respect for NSA certificates. But homeland security? Some pathetical political tool to scare voters while not presenting any results?

P.S. Is it that far the day the US gets his own Gestapo/SS? Bush admin seems to be pressing for legislation behond the patriots acts.

Re: What is a Haz Mat Suit? When do I need one?

[yuda]

So I'm wondering how a Haz Mat suit is going to interfere with my tin foil hat?

REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME

[Petronius]

One day, squirrels will come flying out of my ass. They too will be fighting terrorism.

Seriously, it's OK to sell crap, as long as you're fighting terrorism. It's OK to lockup innocents as long as you're fighting terrorism, it's OK to bomb Iraq as long as you're fighting terrorism. It's OK to bankrupt the economy as long as you're fighting terrorism. Next we should lock up 12-year olds to help with the fight on file sharers. They could also be terrorists.

The McCarthy era is back, in full force.

Go ahead fuckers, mod me down.

Re:REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME

[HBI]

Actually this is the reason why I decided today that I am voting Democrat next year.

I am a registered Republican, and have voted that way since 1993.

This administration is way out of control. It's too machiavellian for my tastes. If my freedoms are going to get eroded, I would prefer they do smarter stuff like close the borders or whatever. This administration is so milquetoast that I can't even see a marginal benefit to the crap they are doing.

I'll even vote for Dean if he is the Dem nominee. They lost my vote with this porn = file sharing shit, truth be told. But the stuff you cite above isn't helping.

Fucking losers.

Re:REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not american, nor do I live in the US, but I applaude you for changing your vote, we need more people to stick up for what THEY believe rather than some brand-loyalty to a party. Representatives need to earn their votes, not take them for granted.

Good on ya tiger!

Re:REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME

[Excen]

I am a registered Republican, and have voted that way since 1993.

I would hush up if I were you. The unemployed reading slashdot might be inclined to kill you for voting for the guy that destroyed their jobs.

Re:REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME

[HBI]

I would hush up if I were you. The unemployed reading slashdot might be inclined to kill you for voting for the guy that destroyed their jobs.

Not my fault that virtually skill-free people rode a bubble and thought it would last forever. Everyone got fat and lazy and now the real world intrudes on the fantasy built upon corporate malfeasance. Don't forget the winking Clinton administration that let it happen. Asleep at the switch, or just hoping the bubble would burst after they were out of office? You decide. Try kicking their ass instead, you might be close to the mark there.

I broke into the work force in a recession. It sucks. Deal. Learn to spell and to use grammar correctly. It helps.

You think you fuckers are the first people to have a hard time getting work? Think again. It'll get like this again in repeating cycles throughout your lifetime.

Every time someone bitches about the job market I think "how naive"...

Re:REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME

[Anonymous Coward]

and this is why I, a registered nothing, who's always voted third party and hates the two party system will vote democrat next year...and prolly every year after. I'll be happy if I never see another GWB in office.

Re:REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME

[Anonymous Coward]

I do my part to fight terrorism:

I watch lots and lots of porn.

And not the gay porn that terrorist watch. Unless you're talking lesbo porn, which is acceptible (not by terrorists though).

Re:REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm voting democrat next election as well.

Unless that bitch, Hillary, is running. Or anyone with any ties to Jessee Jackson or that other nigger-preacher with the funky hair.

Re:REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME

[Cackmobile]

Why not vote for a third party? I am an aussie and we have the same 2 party system here. And really its the same as the US. THere really isn't much difference by the big 2 who are just corporate whores anyway. As u always voted republican why not vote for a right leaning independent or minor party. Personally I lean to the left but I wouldn't vote democrat (or labour in oz). We need to move away from the 2 party system.

Re:REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME

[OrderOfSemprini]

Of course, Ill never let you live down your 1993 vote.

However, I will be voting with you on the next election, even if in some bizzaro world twist of fate, Al Sharpton becomes the nominee. Im adopting the GRIP philosophy that is being touted in the local area. Get rid of incumbent politicians---I dont care who you are or how bad or good you are, Im voting against you when the time comes.

Re:REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME

[Daniel Dvorkin]

Because if you vote for a third-party candidate in the US (don't know about Australia, but it sounds like it might be the same way) you might as well not vote at all. Look, in the entire 200+-year history of American politics, it has never happened that a small third party has grown to become one of the Big Two; on the rare occasions when the Big Two have changed their names and fundamental political philosophies, it's happened because one of the existing Big Two fell apart and re-coalesced, usually taking large chunks of the Other Party with them. This is how the Democrats formed in the (very) late 18th c., the Republicans formed in the mid 19th c., and how the Democrats and Republicans essentially traded ideologies (without the name change) in the early-to-mid 20th c. On that timeline, BTW, we're overdue for another big shift, and that's something I'd profoundly like to see -- but voting Libertarian or Green or Reform or Socialist ain't gonna make it happen.

Re:REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME

[pmz]

The McCarthy era is back, in full force.

Thankfully, we don't have to endure it past December 2004.

Re:REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME

[pmz]

Big Two

What do we do when they become the Big One? I don't see any fundamental differences between Democrats and Republicans, right now. There are minor differences (Patriot Act vs. National Healthcare whoopdedoo), but no differences big enought to make a Democratic president better for personal liberty than a Republican one.

What would be a really good thing would be for the biggest third parties to put aside their differences and band together to get someone else--anyone else-- into office. If they could find a canidate to run under a unified platform, at least temporarily, that will do a lot of good to shake up the status quo.

Re:REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME

[pmz]

Additionally, even a big showing in 2004 without a win can help gain momentum for 2008. Four more years is a short time to wait to save something that is already over 225 years old.

The most important thing is to find ways to speak loudly in the electoral process that there is dissatisfaction with the top two canidates. This will at least get people's attention, start showing up in polls, and become conversation everywhere. That's enough to get the ball rolling.

Re:REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME

[HBI]

I'd like to point out the clear bias evidenced by the above tree of posts.

current -1 is flamebait
current -3 is 5 insightful

There is not much more to be said. Read them both, and they express congruent points of view but one is acceptable to the left, and one isn't.

Typical of /. mods.

Re:REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME

[OrderOfSemprini]

Throw in a bit of humor and get modded down even more.

Re:REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME

[Cackmobile]

Thats it. Spread the word to friends, relatives and workmates. One vote may not make a difference but if its 100,000 single votes then we have something!

Why all the trouble?

[jmv]

Why does Bush go through all that trouble of voting these laws (anti-terrorism certification, regulation changes, ...) and everything. Why not just take 20% of the US taxes and give divide it among the thousands of companies that gave the most money to his campaign. I mean, it would be much simpler, much more transparent and he could have more vacation...

Re:Why all the trouble?

[sbszine]

Further to that, check out this article in the Philly Inquirer about Bush's latest environmental concessions to the companies that backed him. CO2 is not a pollutant any more, pump out as much as you like unfiltered...

(Cue the 'global warming is a shadowy conspiracy of the evil scientific community against innocent oil companies' trolls...)

Re:Why all the trouble?

[jmv]

Thanks for the link. I hadn't realized it was *that* bad. I mean, what's next? Deregulating the amount of arsenic in tap water? Oh wait, it's already been done...

Re:Hi everybody.

[gantrep]

Not to be a pedantic bastard, but you should have written "If I were a camwhore, I would be loved." You can read about the English subjunctive mood here.

Is it just me...

[dolo666]

... or do some of you see that there is a real problem with this "Unkie Sam label of acceptance".

A) Governments say which products are "ok". (this kinda made me cringe when I first considered it... because it could so be exploited.)
B) Consumers live with a false sense of security.
C) Terrorists attack the "safe" products first and leave the other ones alone.
D) Businesses that "pay up" get the seal, and those who don't... are considered second rate.
E) Products without the seal can use that as a defence against *any* form of liability. (ie: Caveat Emptor)
F) The seal idea indicates that the companies are currently not doing their best to protect us.
G) With a little tampering, the seal could be applied to any product as a fake.

Re:Is it just me...

[swordgeek]

Hmmm. Yep, that covers most of the salient points. However...

With regards to (E), there will be no defense. If your product isn't on "the list," then it'll be fair game for anyone to sue. They'll say, "We're not on the list, we never promised anything!" and the plaintifs will say, "You're not on the list--we're going to take you down!" Who has the deeper pockets?

Also, items (A) through (E) are SO large, that (F) and (G) are msotly irrelevant. It won't matter if the seal is fake or not, because the seal won't matter. At all.

It's pathetic. Anti-capitalist, anti-competitive, doesn't provide any security at all, creates an entirely false sense of security in the population, and promotes special interest groups.

Good to see that things are going according to plan under Bush.

Re:Is it just me...

[dolo666]

Swordgeek said:"With regards to (E), there will be no defense. If your product isn't on "the list," then it'll be fair game for anyone to sue."

I tend to disagree. Presupposing that all products must be on the list, is a tendency toward facism that even Bush would not agree with. Knowing that there are lists around, means that any member of society that buys a product that is not on the list, must be aware that it *may* be tampered with, or possibly be funding terrorism.

Caveat Emptor. The defence is that if consumers knowingly bought products that were not on the list, the consumers are liable because they had a choice and they chose to go the cheap route. (assuming that products will become more expensive if they join this list program, and why not? It's an excuse to get more money, AND look good!)

Swordgeek said:"They'll say, "We're not on the list, we never promised anything!" and the plaintifs will say, "You're not on the list--we're going to take you down!" Who has the deeper pockets?"

The courts will likely rule on the first precedent, and then throw out any case that goes against it, to save court costs and time. Special circumstances may lead to full cases after, but it would likely have to be established early that there were special circumstances (ie: faulty product got passed QC or something).

Re:Is it just me...

[swordgeek]

OK, just one point. I honestly do not believe that there is any degree of facism that Bush will not go along with, if he can get away with it. If there were some way he could manage the PR, I don't think he'd hesitate for more than five seconds to round up every Arab in the US right now, and put them in 'detainment' camps.

screw that

[Anonymous Coward]

they only want to be approved so they wont be liable in case there really is a terrorist attack an their product fails. Its a scam.

Good show

[lonesome phreak]

That was actually pretty damn funny. I was like...yes...yes...sco...hey, wait a second! Not a bad troll.

This'll go the same way as the terrorism futures

[happyhippy]

Ridiculed and double talked into retraction.

But you have to laugh 'THIS PRODUCT WAS NOT MADE OR USED BY A TERRORIST!'

...skewered from eye socket to bunghole...

[Anonymous Coward]

Better than they deserve...

Never forget!

it would be funny...

[Anonymous Coward]

if DNF was not released because it was found to be too violent or some other excuse.. then it would truly wear the vaporware crown.

What kind of way to fight terrorism is this?

[kfg]

Because this shit really terrorizes the hell out of me.

KFG

How soon before this gets abused?

[Anonymous Coward]

Proof Anti-Terrorism required before purchase...

Call it what you want, but the Department of Homeland Security is the infrastructure for the inevitable police state the US is becoming... not now - but say 40 years from now.

Other the other hand...

[boomgopher]

...like the other side is any better. Some favorite vague fear-inducers, used to further their goals:

"They're trying to steal your Medicare!"
"Capitalism is destroying the environment!"
"Homelessness is increasing!"
"Your Social Security might get cut!"


So, name your poison.

Re:Other the other hand...

[micromoog]

The difference is that these are all true and easily proven.

Thanks!

[Anonymous Coward]

Posts like yours make it all worthwhile.

mod parent up

[ArmorFiend]

[mod parent up please]

Point taken, but there's the question of scale. Is it more useful to the terrorist to drive airplanes into each of our buildings (we've got a lot of buildings) than to score, say, AOL's credit card database and by using huge numbers of small fradulent charges try to destroy VISA, and with it the consumer economy.

I'm not really convinced by my argument either. I plan to steal and trot out your argument at the next bull session. :)

Feminist joke:Why did the feminist cross the road?

[Anonymous Coward]

TO SUCK MY MUTHAFUCKIN COCK!

ROCK ON! (http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/rockon.gif)

Obligatory modified SImpsons quote...

[Anonymous Coward]

By that rationale, I could say that this rock prevents tiger and terrorist attacks.

OpenBSD (Off-topic)

[Anonymous Coward]

OpenBSD offers an antiterrorism environment.

Anti-Terrorist File Sharing Network

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's try to figure out a way to get a file sharing network certified as some sort of anti-terrorist thing.

Slashdot seeks certification

[Anonymous Coward]

And in other news, Slashdot seeks certification for its commnet forums, stating that they provide a critical tool for winnowing the alarming bits from the otherwse inane BS coming out of Ashcroft's mouth.

What?

[Aldric]

Are we going to see Muslim detectors in the shops? "Spots a beard from up to one mile away!" Approved by Microsoft, because you don't get Unix/Linux people without beards.

What a NOVEL Idea!

[Mnemennth]

Bring all your most dangerous products... you know, the ones you canned because your wussy legal department said you couldn't afford to release them on the market because well, it might chop off an arm or a leg... or blow little Timmy's face off... yeah, all those products!
For the right price, we'll slap our Homeland Security Seal on it, and little Timmy can go pound sand!
Sell your ill-designed, poorly thought-out, or just plain dangerous product with IMPUNITY!(And not just in the Third World anymore!)

That ought to give our economy the shot in the arm it needs!

Mnem
"It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off."

pathetic

[Anonymous Coward]

This is horrible. Americans need to move past september 11th. Fighting wars on terrorism is the reason you guys are getting attacked and will continue to get attacked. I'm so glad i don't live there. All i hear about on american news is about terrorism, yet you have only had 1 major forein terrorist attack in two years. O no Ossma killed 4000 americans, americans kill more americans then that every year. maybe you should fix your own problems before you try to fix other nations.

Hallelujah!

[Safety State]

Are you kidding? This is just what I've been waiting for.

We have a fantastic design for a device which identifies terrorists by body odor. It doesn't actually seem to work, so the protection from liability suits will be a major boon. And we could definitely use the Homeland Security Department's product endorsement. Who knew they were in the business?

Scent-o-Fear(TM)
The official body odor detection system of the Homeland.

OT but ...

[bigsteve@dstc]

From "The Man Who Never Was" by Spike Milligan

Spy: Please, please! Bitte, believe me! I'm not a shpy. I come here seeking political asylum.

Bloodnok: Well, take a bus to the House of Commons, that's the finest political asylum in the world! Ooohh, yes! They're all there you know, aaaooooowalalalalaaaaaaaaaaaaaayeeaaahhhhhaaa! Including Max Geldray, the well known long playing record!!

I don't care what else gets sold

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as duct tape gets their official seal of approval.

you forget...

[alizard]

DHS uses MS products.

Re:you forget...

[B3ryllium]

my bad.

Goodness, gracious, have you forgot Clinton?

[MickLinux]

Or have you forgotten Bush Sr, Reagan, *, Nixon, Kennedy, Johnson, Eisenhower et al?

*(sorry, I can't name Carter or Ford in this list)

Is there any way that you can honestly say one party is different from the other? I mean, Bush has called up Schwarzeneggar of the Oui scandal, to get the California bandwagon rolling, and who does Schwarzeneggar get as his second major supporter, but the matriarch of the Kennedy clan?

By all means, go ahead and pull the lever for "Antiterrorism Party #2" if "Antiterrorism Party #1" doesn't suit your tastes, but I'd judge my vote on more than whether I liked polkadot ties or stripes.

Re:Goodness, gracious, have you forgot Clinton?

[filmsmith]

I have not forgotten Clinton, and don't call me Gracious!

Some thoughts

[Jeppe Salvesen]

I agree that we should not be totally unprepared for life's curveballs. However, there should be rational decisions behind this.

If you live somewhere that is exposed to tornadoes and hurricanes, making sure you have a sturdy basement with a bit of supplies is a good thing. Perhaps a small gas heater, some canned food and some extra water is a good idea too.

But you cannot and should not let the fear of the bad stuff that can happen to you rule our life (and/or your personal economy). That is simply poor judgement.

One last piece of advice - pull out your TV. It's amazing how much more time you'll gain for reading , socializing and working out!

Remember McCarthy?

[Nefarious Wheel]

Is this equivalent to "certifiably Communist-free", or "certifiably Jew-free"?

Jeez, people, do we have to repeat the whole 20th century again?

It seems to me that good-sounding policies underpinned by vague premises, broad (though justifiable) fear are symptomatic of a trend toward heavy, popular repression of some single group of people, chosen because they're an easy scapegoat. The next logical step would be global-scale ethnic cleansing, wouldn't it?

I have no interest in supporting terrorism in any form, but I worry that we'll embrace a cure worse than the disease by painting a people with too broad a brush.

Terrorists are animals, but let's not turn the tag into an easy way to lump a whole people into an easy-to-nuke corral.

Treating any group of people as objects is the first step toward the new Auschwitz.

New and Better Than Ever!

[eidechse]

Homeland Security tested and Ashcroft approved! Operators are standing by to take your...um...order...

Re:terrorist label

[naztafari]

Jesus, Nelson Mandela? Thats fucked up.

I think the level of airport security is ridiculous. If Jesus showed up at an airport today looking as he did 2000 years ago, He'd probably be labeled a terrorist.

I don't think the level of terrorist paranoia is healthy for everyone.

And those asshats complain that the US tourism industry is down. I wonder why.

Happy International Terrorism Day everyone...

[Jessta]

Party at my house, come dressed as your favourite terrorist.

Re:Happy International Terrorism Day everyone...

[Vexler]

I have always been partial towards Abu Nidal myself... On the other hand, it would be a sick joke to walk in with a T-shirt that says "Osama Is My Hero".

anus anus

[Anonymous Coward]

anus anus!


anus anus anus, anus


anus?


anus!

Freedom from being sued?

[MImeKillEr]

From the article:

How many of these products will actually help prevent or counter terrorism? Not all, of course, but companies have an incentive to get questionable products through if they can: Certified products will enjoy protection from liability suits -- similar to the protection defense contractors get -- when they are purchased by the 22 federal agencies under DHS, or by other state and local employees fighting terrorism. Even better, lawyers say this good-homeland-keeping seal of approval should also provide at least some defense in private suits.

(Emphasis mine)

Let's hope this seal is huge and in an annoying color so we can all avoid it.

Somehow, I seriously doubt all of the products getting this seal will be quality and I'm under the belief that more than a few will be utter pieces of shit. I mean, they've got federal freedom from lawsuits. Why bother ensuring the product is safe?

Maybe its the pessimist in me. Maybe its the total lack of faith in our government agencies to do anything that makes sense (case-in-point: USPTO). Or, maybe I'm just being realistic.

Does anyone else get this feeling, or do I need to don a tinfoil hat to avoid getting these impressions?

Re:Freedom from being sued?

[Anonymous Coward]

Obligatory Anti-GoogleBomb: Fair and Balanced

Re:Freedom from being sued?

[MImeKillEr]

Wow. A new low, even for an AC.

Whatcha going to do? Reply to ALL my threads with points back to FoxNews?

I guess you took a break from your non-stop masturbation to Hansen photos long enough to post four replies.

Get a life.

Which products?

[bobthemuse]

What classes of products are eligible for this seal?

How long until my spam reads "New! Penis Extender! 9 inches! Now with Anti-Terrorism Seal of Approval!"

Re:Which products?

[MImeKillEr]

I, for one, would like to see the seal.

I say we get Slashdot one.

Anyone with any good photoshop skills care to take a whack at it? Just use the Gold Seal Flower emblem as your starting point if we can't find one for the DHS.

Maybe we can get SGI one too, so SCO can't sue them.

Re:Which products?

[interstellar_donkey]

And where, exactly, would the end user put that seal?

"No baby, check it out. This thing it terror free! It's got the seal right here. Wait, wait, hold on a minute. Ok, no.... ahh there it is!"

Re:Which products?

[Anonymous Coward]

Obligatory Anti-GoogleBomb: Fair and Balanced

That is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

Terrorists do not want to scare us. Terrorists want to KILL us. That is why they strap bobms to themselves and blow up busses and cafe's. If they wanted to scare us they would yell BOO or GOTCHA.

MOD PARENT DOWN

[Anonymous Coward]

get your facts straight please. -- The day after 9/11, we bombed Afghanistan no. we waited about a month and a half. -- Yeah, that's completely different from 1984's premise. sigh. Have you read 1984? Im sick of this being quoted constantly when it has no real bearing on what you are talking about. -- Odd, I'd swear that there was no hard evidence that al Qaeda actually committed the WTC attack. are you on crack? Osama said he did it. good enough for me. im guessing you arent an American. for our sake I hope you stay that way.

Nice flamebait you got yourself there....

[JeanBaptiste]

>This makes Nazi Germany seem sane by comparison.

This is interesting/insightful? you must be on crack. Hitler killed 6 million jews under his ethnic clensing program.

So you dont like the current administration. fine. But to say that our current administration makes Nazi Germany look sane. You really need to get some perspective, buddy. and

>(sorry about breaking into your house, tapping your phone, seizing your property, and arresting you without a warrant, but Bob's girlfriend's roommate's secretary said you were a terrorist)

Really? Has such a thing happened to you? Has such a thing happened to anyone you know? again, grow up and get some perspective. You think this is like living in nazi germany? Go live in north korea (yes, I have friends from there). I think that would give you some idea of what a fascist dictatorship is, and maybe you would realize your country is not so bad after all.

I call Godwin's Law on this!

[Anonymous Coward]

http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s_La w.html

Look for the "Ashcroft Inside" sticker...

[Vexler]

...on your mugs, T-shirts, cameras, and even boxcutters!!!

Arr, matey!

[krysith]

Does that mean instead of software pirates, now we will have software privateers? ;)

Liabity, huh?

[HiThere]

Is this going to be like the Nuclear Industry getting a waiver of liability from congress, so that if they dump high level radioactive waste on your house you can't sue them?

(I'm not sure of the details about the Nuclear Industry's liability waiver. It's probably much more restricted than I was implying.)

Avoid. . ?

[Fantastic Lad]

Let's hope this seal is huge and in an annoying color so we can all avoid it.

What!? And actively hinder the 'Fight Against Terrorism' by choosing to avoid American-made products specially designed to stop the bad guys!?

Better watch your back! They got a list, you know, and they don't check it twice. They just start at the top.

-FL

Re:Remember Kissinger?

[Fantastic Lad]

Terrorists are animals, but let's not turn the tag into an easy way to lump a whole people into an easy-to-nuke corral.

Oh, but that's the whole point!

September 11 today, marks the anniversary of the day when a small group undertook a campaign of terror against a democratic government. When it was over, thousands were dead or arrested, repressive measures were in place, a fascist, military-controlled government was in place, and Salvador Allende, the democratically elected President of Chile, lay murdered.

The military coup in Chile thirty years ago today was financed and coordinated by the Nixon government.

The more recent 9/11 was engineered by several of the very men who worked under Nixon. Some say, the 2001 attacks were executed on the September date so as to give a gift of respect to their mentor, Tricky Dick.

And why Allende?

This analyst has made the point that Allende was viewed as a danger by Kissinger precisely because he was a committed "democrat":

Kissinger set the CIA against Allende, not to preserve democracy or to counter a Soviet puppet in Latin America, but to prevent a charismatic socialist from providing a democratic alternative to American policy. "Henry thought that Allende might lead an anti-United States movement in Latin America more effectively than Castro, just because it was the democratic path to power," commented an ex-staff aide. In fact, it was precisely because Allende was widely regarded as a believer in democratic institutions that there was so much shock connected to his overthrow, especially in the Third World and southern Europe. What Kissinger was saying-and backing up with covert American power-was that adherence to democracy wasn't enough; that countries would not be allowed to switch over to a socialist way of running their economies even democratically. The message of Chile was: no matter how unjust or corrupt the alternative, the United States would not allow meaningful economic or social change, at least with a Marxist label, and a willingness to have good relations with Cuba, China, and the Soviet Union.

And freekin' Bush actually tried to hire on Kissinger, but the American public was not quite asleep enough to let that one slip by. Oh well. I'm sure there will be an office for him in another couple of years when public opinion will no longer make a lick of difference.

-Fl

Exactly wrong. Re:REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME

[hacksoncode]

The point of voting for 3rd party candidates is not to create a new political party, nor is it to win that election. The point is to bring about the exact kinds of change you're talking about in this posting.

Compare the 1920s Socialist Party platform with that of modern day Democrats, and you will find that they are almost identical. This isn't a random occurance. It's happened many times.

Will you actually be surprised if the Democrats are even more Green next election cycle than they are now? After Gore tied Bush in Florida (and then lost on a technicality)?

The point of voting 3rd party is to change the agendas of the major parties. Do you think the Reform party accomplished nothing in that regard?

You fools!

[Roadkills-R-Us]

This is the salvation of our economy. We're *still* not over the dot com bust. A wise person will start a HAC (Homeland Absurdity Certified) product line.

I plan to sell HAC box cutters. Heck, you'll even be allowed to carry them onto the plane with you!

Invest now before I have all the capital I need!

Re:Nice flamebait you got yourself there....

[Chris Burke]

Really? Has such a thing happened to you? Has such a thing happened to anyone you know? again, grow up and get some perspective. You think this is like living in nazi germany? Go live in north korea (yes, I have friends from there). I think that would give you some idea of what a fascist dictatorship is, and maybe you would realize your country is not so bad after all.

You think that's bad? Try living on Pluto (yes, I have friends from there). You just even try complaining about the cruel fascist dictatorship you used to live in when it's 35 degrees Kelvin!

Which is just a way of pointing out the silliness of the "Well, it's worse over there!" argument. Yes, it sucks more some place or time elsewhere. If I only had the option of living in North Korea or fascist Italy, I'd probably pick Italy. But that doesn't mean I think Musollini was cool, or not a fascist dictator, does it?

And here's what a lot of people forget when the whole "Gee, there are alarming similarities between the Bush administration and the Hitler administration" thing comes up and they go "Oh, but Hitler killed six million Jews!": Hitler did that, but he didn't do that until after he had solidified his power as Die Furer.

Look at Nazism at the equivalent point in history. Hitler is President, and the Reichstag had just recently been burned down by "communists", which was then used as justification to expand government power, the creation of the Gestapo, and the starting of wars. Fearing for their safety, the people followed Hitler because he promised to make them safe.

The parallels are there and they are obvious and they are alarming. When Hitler was at this point, he was only warming up, and tell me this does it sound to you like Bush and Ashcroft are slowing down their attempts to gather more power?

Here's what really bothers me. World War II should be the perfect example of how those in power can use propaganda and fear to control their populace and turn what was a Democracy into a Dictatorship and why it's bad to let that happen. It was the ultimate fucking lesson of the school of hard knocks, with the low low tuition price of forty million lives.

But some people, and coincidentally in my experience always Americans, haven't learned the lesson at all, and that's sad.

"But Hitler killed six million Jews! How many Jews has Bush killed?!" How many Jews did Hitler kill while President? The Jew-killing thing didn't happen until later. It (Nazism, that is) started out seeming fairly reasonable. They won an election, and by a larger margin than Bush! But things started to creep in the direction of a police state, but not enough to alarm people who though it was all for their own safety from the evil Arabs^W Communists. Good, the Gestapo will keep us safe, they said. Eventually, things got worse. Then they got bad. Then six million Jews died (along with a good 30+ million other people).

It's as if the lesson was too huge for people. Forty million people died, six million civilians killed due to their race. It's nearly unthinkable, and unthikable that it could happen again. So people dismiss it! "Oh, Bush would never shovel Jews into gas chambers!" So what?! Do you want to give him the chance and find out? Do you think the only bad thing about Nazi Germany was gas chambers? Why does the end result have to be equally horrific before you'll see that it's a problem?

I don't get it. When you watch the safety video in shop class and it shows a huge industrial band saw hacking off a careless worker's hand, do you throw caution to the wind because it's obvious the little saw in the shop is unlikely to do any worse than sever a finger? Your response: No, that would be really, really stupid and show a profound inability to generalize problems and analyze risk.

What if it wasn't a video, but your friend in real life five minutes ago. You'd have to be a real idiot then not to use caution, wouldn't y

Re:Nice flamebait you got yourself there....

[JeanBaptiste]

>World War II should be the perfect example of how those in power can use propaganda and fear to control their populace and turn what was a Democracy into a Dictatorship and why it's bad to let that happen.

How is our democracy turning into a dictatorship? Im pretty sure both you and I have the option to vote for whomever we want in the next election. Nobody is forcing you to vote for one candidate or the other under any sort of threat.

And you missed my point. Im not saying 'well its worse over there'. Im saying that the comparison between Bush and Hitler is flat out wrong. Bush does not have gangs of thugs roaming the streets attacking those that differ in opinion. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Jong-Il, Pol-Pot, Saddam, etc rule(d) their populations through FEAR. Are you living in fear of your government right now? Im not. If you are, then why? Were family members 'disappeared'? So some 100 or so people are being held without being given access to lawyers or some stuff like that. Remember WW2? Did you learn the part about how we locked up many, many American citizens of German, Italian, and Japanese descent for absolutely no reason?

Did that make us turn into a dictatorship?

Im guessing your real problem is that it is a Republican in office. Or else you (logically) have to think that FDR was much worse than Bush in the 'dictator' department. Bush hasnt done one tenth of what FDR did, as far as the 'big brother' shit goes.

>So why is that when a mere fifty years ago our friend Europe lost 40 million of its people we look and say "Never could happen to us!"

yeah I forgot all about the part where poland flew a few planes into downtown berlin and killed thousands of people and the part where france was sending anthrax to german politians in the mail. We were provoked. Germany wasnt (unless you count the treaty of Versailles but thats a whole different debate).

It really disgusts me all these people drawing parallels to Nazi germany. The situations are completely different. Oh and if Bush can be equated to Hitler, then what does that make FDR? oops, FDR was a Democrat, better not badmouth him.

Really. If FDR can lock up tens of thousands for no reason, and Bush only locks up a few hundred or so (with a greatly larger population), which one is worse? Which one is more of a fascist? Which one is more like Hitler?

Thank you.

Re:Remember Kissinger?

[Nefarious Wheel]

Yeah. Anger is always justified, but actions taken in anger only add to the pool of anger.

I guess that's cool if you want to live in an anger-based economy.

Re:Nice flamebait you got yourself there....

[Chris Burke]

I had a nice long post replying point-by-point, explaining how Hitler used fear of others to win power and pointing out that while Stalin-like in rule, Hitler was nothing like Stalin in coming or your other examples in coming to power. Unlike Russia when Stalin rose to power, Germany was a Democracy and so on.

But I stopped, because I read two things:

Im guessing your real problem is that it is a Republican in office.

At which point I guessed that your real problem is that you're more interested in partisan politics than in history and its lessons. A guess that was born out by:

yeah I forgot all about the part where poland flew a few planes into downtown berlin and killed thousands of people and the part where france was sending anthrax to german politians in the mail.

Yeah, maybe you did forget. Mabye. Though since I mentioned it in my last post, and "the Reichstag had just recently been burned down by 'communists'" doesn't seem to have refreshed your memory any, then maybe the problem is that you're ignorant.

So, here I stopped. There's no point in refuting the points of someone who wasn't even aware of the Reichstag attack. It'd be like discussing current events without knowing about September 11th. Very much like it. Would you debate U.S. policy with someone who wasn't aware of the WTC attacks?

I don't blame you, since you're probably a product of the American public school system (like myself) and thus woefully ignorant of history in general. I implore you to educate yourself about this critical point in history. Of all the President's qualities you could choose to emulate, please don't pick his dislike of reading.

Here's a -very- quick synopsis though, just to get you started:
- Germany is a Democracy with several parties, of which the Nazis are the strongest, nearing a majority of support.
- Arson committed on the Reichstag (German Congress building). Communists are fingered as the culprits.
- Ostensibly to respond to the immediate, dire threat of Communist terrorists, new legistlation granting vast new executive powers is steamrolled through with virtually no debate allowed.
- The dire, immediate threat of Communism becomes the dire, immediate threat of Poland.
- Based on afforementioned dire, immediate threat Germany invades Poland. From this point, you should have at least a vague idea of what happened.

You should also have at least a vague idea of why some people are noticing parallels. You surely aren't convinced, but hopefully you are at least lead to investigate further.

It really disgusts me all these people drawing parallels to Nazi germany. The situations are completely different. Oh and if Bush can be equated to Hitler, then what does that make FDR? oops, FDR was a Democrat, better not badmouth him.

You could assume I wouldn't badmouth him because of his party affiliation, but you'd be wrong. It really disgusts me when the ignorant attribute the opinions of others to their own foibles. As a result I probably strayed a little bit too far toward the wrong end of the continuum between "pointing out your ignorance" and "mocking your ignorance". So, sorry about that, but only a little.

Re:Nice flamebait you got yourself there....

[JeanBaptiste]

Wow. You are so correct. Your arrogant condescending post really showed me my ignorant ways.

How could I have missed it? Bush really is just like Hitler, maybe worse!

Despite the fact that you are making some assumptions that clearly arent true... I am not a product of the US public school system. I have taken plenty of college history courses, and still read historical stuff for enjoyment... oh and Im hardly a Republican myself....

But you are correct in condescending. I dont know how I missed that Bush is just like Hitler. Guess I am just ignorant. Still, if someone as educated and learned as yourself could enlighten me on just one point: Please explain to me how anything Bush is doing is any worse than anything FDR did. I eagerly await your response.

Thank you and have a nice day.

Re:Nice flamebait you got yourself there....

[Chris Burke]

Your arrogant condescending post really showed me my ignorant ways.

I was arrogant and condescending. You were arrogant, condescending, and also had no idea what you were talking about. "yeah I forgot all about the part where poland flew a few planes into downtown berlin" you said, arrogantly, condescendingly, and ignorantly.

How could I have missed it? Bush really is just like Hitler, maybe worse!

Glorious straw man! If you have been paying attention, my whole point was that Bush isn't as bad as Hitler, but that shouldn't stop you from being able to see the god-damn historical pattern.

Then again, knowing what pattern you're looking for helps, eh?

Despite the fact that you are making some assumptions that clearly arent true... I am not a product of the US public school system. I have taken plenty of college history courses, and still read historical stuff for enjoyment... oh and Im hardly a Republican myself....

Look, you're the one that assumed I'm incapable of thinking bad thoughts about a Democrat, based solely on me not liking Bush. If that doesn't indicate partisanship, what does? So I was wrong.

And I assumed you were a product of the U.S. school system because that would give an excuse for your ignorance. I'm really curious how you managed to take "plenty of college history" but not know anything the God-damned burning of the Reichstag! My definition of "plently" is "more than enough", but that apparently isn't the same definition you're using.

Okay, so now that I know you're not a Republican and have an extensive non-public-school history education, let me ask you: What on God's Green Earth is your excuse for not knowing about the Reichstag?!

and still read historical stuff for enjoyment...

To quote Brian of Family Guy: "Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't... nothing?"

I dont know how I missed that Bush is just like Hitler. Guess I am just ignorant.

Yes, you are. You've already demonstrated it, so stop saying it sarcastically like it isn't true. You are ignorant on this subject.

Still, if someone as educated and learned as yourself could enlighten me on just one point:

I'm not claiming to be that educated and learned. This is basic history. Even the most cursory examination of the Nazi rise to power will feature the burning of the Reichstag as a turning point in German history.

I'm also not claiming that it's my task to enlighten you. Nor it is my responsibility to. You ignorance has been pointed out to you, and you either care and will fix it or you won't.

Please explain to me how anything Bush is doing is any worse than anything FDR did. I eagerly await your response.

Still stuck on that, eh? My original reply addressed some of these issues, but again I really didn't see the point in discussing this with someone who thinks not knowing is a strong argumentative position.

But in short:
If I was God, FDR would have earned his own special place in Hell for the internment camps.
FDR gets a special Hell-fork in the ass for his own personal Reichstag, Pearl Harbor, and for knowing more about it before hand than was let on at the time (there are interesting historical comparisons all over, aren't there?).
The lesson of Social Security we may see replayed literally when they get us to swallow government-controlled tracking devices by coating them in chocolate.

As far as I'm aware, habeus corpus and other Constitutional rights weren't removed as a matter of law (they were as a matter of practice, if you happened to be Japanese). I'm not aware of any laws that granted him additional powers that weren't temporary -- ie until the end of the War, which unlike some other Wars had the distinction of having an enemy who could surrender, and thus end the War.

If you have anything you'd like to add, feel free. I am sincere

Re:Nice flamebait you got yourself there....

[JeanBaptiste]

>So now I have a question for you: Of all the substantial parallels I listed between the rise of the Nazis and current events, why do you disagree that they are indicative of similar patterns?

okay then. I will do my best to not be arrogant and condescending. its not much fun anyways.

Why do I think our current events do not parallel that of Nazi Germany?

1. Brown shirted thugs are not patrolling the streets assaulting those that disagree with the government. Before the 'war' we had with Iraq, I saw plenty of people protesting against the war. Nobody was attacking them government or otherwise. When our freedom of political speech gets taken away, then maybe you have a point (I suppose Campaign Finance Reform counts, but Bush has had 0.0 to do with that so far).... However right now as it stands, you can oppose your government (in speech) all you want and nothing will happen to you. Couldnt do this when Hitler took power.

2. There is going to be an election in 2004. I dont want to discuss the events surrounding the election in 2000, it was very very close, lets just leave it at that. I think both parties were probably cheating their asses off. So it still remains that if enough people want Bush out of office, it will happen in 2004. I dont think with all the cheating they dare to do it amounts to anything in the end, except for in a very very very close race as we had last time. A fluke. I dont remember Hitler holding any elections.

3. One of Hitler's first orders of business was to nationalize the economy. Bush's tax cuts are in effect the opposite of that.

4. Death camps

and so on. Im sure I could come up with some more major ideological differences between our country and Nazi Germany... but I have to get back to work.

Good day.

And if you would like to tell me how the US country is being more like Nazi germany every day, feel free. Keeping in mind in every past war we have had individual rights restricted in various ways. Why is now worse?

Re:Nice flamebait you got yourself there....

[Chris Burke]

1. Brown shirted thugs are not patrolling the streets assaulting those that disagree with the government. Before the 'war' we had with Iraq, I saw plenty of people protesting against the war. Nobody was attacking them government or otherwise.

Why is "war" in quotes? Bush declared war on Iraq on March 17th.

Anyway, no brown shirted thugs. Ours wear blue. You apparently haven't heard about the Okaland police firing wooden slugs into crowds of peaceful protestors. Surely you've heard of the massive amounts of arrests of protesters, or police blockades preventing protestors from moving or even leaving. And that's just anti-Iraq War protests.

Back to Germany... The Gestapo, formed right after (you guessed it) the Reichstag fire, didn't become the common terror in the minds of the German people that you are imagining until much later.

You're making the grand mistake of thinking you can simply compare the current perspective on Nazi Germany after half a century of historical analysis to what is going on right now. You have to think from the perspective of a German citizen and how the events of the time would have looked to them. IE you don't know that Hitler is planning to exterminate Jews. You've never heard of Auschwitz, and "holocaust" still refers to a burnt offering. All you know is what we know today about todays events -- what information we receive through the news. Granted Germany's political and thus news reporting spectrum was much more varied than in the U.S. today. They didn't hear about dissidents' doors being kicked in the middle of the night -- and if they did, it was a "suspected Communist" (= Terrorist, for correct modern subtext of being a dirty criminal who deserves to be hauled off) not "someone who disagrees with us". At the time Germans didn't think Hitler (the political leader) was Hitler (the synonym for Evil Incarnate that his name is today).

Which is funny. Some historians will wonder -- how could the German people have been duped so badly? How could they believe that the Communists would do something as obviously suicidal as burn down the Reichstag? How could they believe that Poland was a dire and immediate threat to Germany? How could they not have seen Hitler's agenda? To which I say: "Indeed, how?"

Probably didn't know their history well enough.

2. There is going to be an election in 2004. I dont want to discuss the events surrounding the election in 2000, it was very very close, lets just leave it at that.

I'll say that while I do not believe there was any conspiracy, I do believe there was opportunism, and it turned the election. I'll leave it at that.

I dont remember Hitler holding any elections.

*sigh* Hitler held a General Election in March of 1933, just after the Reichstag fire and the passing of the Enablement Act.

This is really getting irritating. I try to not be arrogant or condescending, but you end up just making a mockery of yourself. Every time you say "I don't remember" it really is you not remembering. Or just not knowing. Either you're lying about those history courses, or it just simply didn't stick. You know, I took a course in organic chemistry once. Don't remember a lick of it, which is why I refrain from taking any strong stance in a discussion on the subject. Because that would make me look like a fool and a pompous ass. Which I would be.

3. One of Hitler's first orders of business was to nationalize the economy. Bush's tax cuts are in effect the opposite of that.

Bush is right, Hitler left. Both are authoritarian, and that's the part that matters. Does it really matter so much what social policies your dictator implements while in power?

4. Death camps

Were the death camps public knowledge at the time? Have you been to Guantanamo Bay?

And I now direct you to my first post, which was basically a rant about how people could be stupid enough to fail to learn the

Re:Nice flamebait you got yourself there....

[JeanBaptiste]

I am aware Hitler had 'elections'. I am also aware Saddam had 'elections'. I wouldnt really call either of them elections in the sense that I know the word. How about you?

I think our elections in America are reasonably fair, at least as fair as an any other country on the planet.

>You're making the grand mistake of thinking you can simply compare the current perspective on Nazi Germany after half a century of historical analysis to what is going on right now

You do have a point about that.

but...

Bush could not be a dictator no matter how much he wants to be. Congress can impeach him, voters can vote him out.

If you believe that Bush (and company) could singlehandedly win an election if oh, say, 65% of the populace was against him, then thats a little too bit much tinfoil hat for me. Our system cannot be that corrupt, not with all the free press and media and watchdogs. Even if Bush managed to pull off some crazy scheme to win the election underhandedly, he's out in 2008 anyways. Hardly dictator for life. (oh yeah, only president to serve 3 terms, my old buddy FDR)

Outside of that, I doubt Bush could pull off a move like Lincoln and suspend congress along with a whole bunch of other stuff, making him a de facto dictator for a short time...

>Because when you have War on Germany, Germany can surrender and thus end the war. When you have War on Terrorism, "Terrorism" can't surrender. It is a war that will last as long as those waging it want it to last.

Wrong. The war on terrorism ends when you no longer have organized groups of people purposely targeting innocent women and children. All wars end with one side causing the other side to not want to fight anymore. I dont see any reason we cant do that to terrorists.

I dont like the patriot act either. we agree on something.

almost nice response. I appreciate what you have to say, I think I am learning some things. I enjoy our discourse and would like to know what you have to say about the above...

with that in mind, there is one paragraph I didnt appreciate...

>This is really getting irritating.
Yep
>I try to not be arrogant or condescending
A sentance like that followed by the word 'but' does not mean much
>but you end up just making a mockery of yourself.
okay if you say so
>Every time you say "I don't remember" it really is you not remembering. Or just not knowing.
Either way makes for the same end result.
>Either you're lying about those history courses, or it just simply didn't stick.
Its been a while but im pretty sure I know quite a bit. You might know more about some stuff. I might know more about other stuff. I do my best to not be arrogant. I dont always succeed, but its good to try. Why? No matter how much I know about anything, there are always thousands of people that know far more than I. I would like it if people that knew more than I about something would not be condescending and instead share their knowledge. And so I attempt to act the same to those that know less than I do about a given subject.
>You know, I took a course in organic chemistry once. Don't remember a lick of it, which is why I refrain from taking any strong stance in a discussion on the subject. Because that would make me look like a fool and a pompous ass. Which I would be.
Sigh. Name calling? Im just going to ignore it because I would like to know what you have to say about what I have said above the not-so-nice paragraph. But in the future, unless you are absolutely so enraged that you cannot refrain....

and finally,

>And you've still not at all answered my question. My question was: " Of all the substantial parallels I listed between the rise of the Nazis and current events, why do you disagree that they are indicative of similar patterns?

Because Hitler was an absolute dictator with complete power over the military, police, industry, and everything else.
Bush could not, will not, and can not have that kind of power no matter how bad he might want it, for reasons I stated above.

Cheers.