Do You Accept Cellphone Payments?

beuges writes "In one of South Korea's latest efforts to establish itself as a technology trendsetter, the country's three telecom giants, major credit card companies and several banks have been working for a year to enable Koreans to pay for everything from groceries to petrol by cellphone."

Comments

mLife in the US

[Dancin_Santa]

You may recall seeing something about it during the Superbowl a few years back.

Here's a tip for all you inventors looking to make things easy for the rest of us: CELL PHONES DO NOT HAVE A SIMPLE ENOUGH INTERFACE FOR MOST COMMON INTERACTIONS.

Re:mLife in the US

[nordicfrost]

Yes they do!

There are several systems for paying via the mobile phone here, and they range from complicated to dead simple.
The most complicated is the Mobilhandel system by Telenor. It is very complicated to set up but once it is done you can pay via SMS for ski passes, lattes, cinema tickets, even sex toys.

You also have the Payex system, Contopronto and a few minor.

The war between the systems is on and the firs casualty seem to be Payex with high fees and complicated systems. The Mobilhandel system is complicated but has the backing of the telecom company Telenor while the Contopronto system seem to be a fast-moving cute alternative.

And it is easy to use. You don't even have to be a customer there to recieve money through the phone.

Re:mLife in the US

[ModelX]

Here's a tip for all you inventors looking to make things easy for the rest of us: CELL PHONES DO NOT HAVE A SIMPLE ENOUGH INTERFACE FOR MOST COMMON INTERACTIONS.

That's how a vending machine down the corridor works: type a 5-digit mobile payment number, append the cash amount digits to the number, dial and place your phone close to the vending machine mic for a few seconds. Now choose the type of drink you want prepared.

If you store the payment number as a fastdial number, it takes only 2 keypresses to pay a preset amount.

Re:mLife in the US

[Danta]

Here's a tip for all you inventors looking to make things easy for the rest of us: CELL PHONES DO NOT HAVE A SIMPLE ENOUGH INTERFACE FOR MOST COMMON INTERACTIONS.

Get yourself a Nokia, any one, just not the advanced Symbian platform ones. Seriously. I just won a SonyEricsson P800, their most advanced model before they recently released the P900. It's usability sucks. I've reverted to my simple Nokia 3510i, since it just works and is very user-friendly.

Already accepted practice in norway

[evil_one666]

Mobile phones (via SMS) are already an accepted way of paying for ski-passes to cinema tickets here in Norway

Perhaps the real story here is how far behind the US is in the widespread use of mobile phone technology...

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[JamesP]

True!

US cell systems are not as good as GSM (which allows for lots of things), along with bureaucracy and software patents...

US has already lost its lead in this sector.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[Anonymous Coward]

We're even farther behind in grasping easy, and useful, new concepts than you think.
How long has the metric system been around? ...and yet we still refuse to use it.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[dabadab]

Yeah, here in Hungary (which is very far from being a "technology trendsetter" :) ) I can pay via SMS for parking, movie downloads and probably a million other things I am not aware of :)
It is just a logical step ahead (which I was expecting) to build a more flexible infrastructure for paying with a mobile phone.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[Anonymous Coward]

US has already lost its lead in this sector.

Don't kid yourself, the US never had any kind of lead in this sector at any time what-so-ever.

Harsh, I know, but sadly true.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[Gadzinka]

Even such (not quite former) third world countries like Poland have e.g. parking payments via SMS.

Robert

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[JamesP]

I know, but when I realized it, I had already hit reply...

shit happens...

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to buy ski passes to ski to where you can buy cinema tickets in Norway? I knew it snowed a lot there, but come on!

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[Like2Byte]

Perhaps the whole story is not fully understood by those in Norway.

The United States (via a Scottish immigrant) invented the telephone and quickly built upon that technology within the country to enhance it's infrastructure. "By 1878, Alexander Graham Bell had set up the first telephone exchange in New Haven, Connecticut. By 1884, long distance connections were made between Boston, Massachusetts and New York City." Source

{{Fast forward 130 odd years}}

It may seem feasible, for someone living in a country with a lessor-established technological-infrastructure that never had a system in place such as the existing telephone system in the US, that the US is behind but the US already had a *huge* system established for over 130 years. An entire industry was created because of it and when you have a beast (or a burden) of such a large scale as the US does one does not just throw it out in favor of some other kind of system - such as the cell phone.

In the US, and correct me if I'm wrong, only something like 20-30% of household use cellphones in their daily lives. Look at Indonesia; 95-98% of their populace uses cellphone technology. Does that make them a world leader? In cell phone usage yes. Why? Cell towers. No one needs to spend billions (if not trillions!) of dollars (or dinars, or Euroes) and lay millions of miles of cable to communicate. Erect a few cell phone towers and you've connected thousands of people. Erect a few more and you've connected an entire nation in a mere fraction of the time as it took for technology to advance enough for it to become feasible for these coutries. Even in Norway.

I'm a US citizen and I cut the cord 3 years ago. Cell phone and e-mail only for me.

You want to harp on the US. Go ahead. But while you're harping, look down your nose and see that you're standing on the shoulders of giants.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it every time a discussion on cell technology comes up, someone has to post something identical to yours, claiming that the U.S has a better POTS network and is far to large to cover reliably anyway.

Each and every time, someone like myself has to point out that your arguments are complete and utter crap.

First of all, Western Europe and now much of Eastern Europe has a POTS network comparable in performance to that of the U.S, so your argument there is complete rubbish.

Europe is just as large as the U.S, yet most of Europe has 99%, fully digital (2G GSM) coverage and we are now rolling out 3G UMTS in almost every country, too. No doubt you believe some nonsens about "population density", yet someone on Slashdot recently pointed out that areas of Norway, with a lower population density than that of many parts of the U.S, is fully covered for GSM. While I am willing to concede that the US has much larger underpopulated areas than most of Europe, the fact still remains that in many densly populated areas, cell coverage may still be relativly poor.

You just have to get over it and admit that the US has made a complete hash of its cell phone networks.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[You're All Wrong]

I think Estonia has had this for parking and public transport and a few other things for about 3 years. Finland for about 2, but it's not caught on as much as it has in Estonia.

I think Hungary's like Estonia (apart from being Finno-Ugric, that is) because the big western mega-corp IT-trendsetter countries pushed all the boundaries forward, and covered their whole country with V0 and V1 of the technology. Noone there actaully needs V2 now. To those that missed the revolution there's no inertia on the "old" tech, so they'll be the quickest to take up V2 and V3. In a decade or two, we'll see Kenya or Nigeria as the quickest uptake of V4, I'm sure.

YAW.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[geirhe]

It may seem feasible, for someone living in a country with a lessor-established technological-infrastructure that never had a system in place such as the existing telephone system in the US, that the US is behind but the US already had a *huge* system established for over 130 years. An entire industry was created because of it and when you have a beast (or a burden) of such a large scale as the US does one does not just throw it out in favor of some other kind of system - such as the cell phone.

Who says Norway has a worse POTS service than the US?

The US has had 130 plus years to amortize its network, Norway has had about 30-50. We still have a 100% POTS coverage and a hellish country to build a POTS network in (mountains and fjords all over the place) to boot.

Lo and behold, we also have two distinct GSM networks with more or less the same coverage. Two older, analogue networks have been made redundant already. It all depends. If you think communications infrastructure is important, you invest, regardless of what kind of old infrastructure is in place. Especially if it is 130+ years old.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in norway too and I'm using my phone to pay for parking. Wery useful as you don't have to carry around small change anymore! ...And a small sidenote: You could buy coke from soda/wending macines with your mobile 3-4 years ago here :)

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[Hettch]

As useful as that may be in Norway, here in the U.S., its a bit more uncommon to ski into movie theaters.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[tobym03]

im not sure bout norway, but at least here in germany the population density is way higher than in the U.S., so network coverage is also much better (bout 98% compared to bout 50%, im not sure bout the numbers though). i think at least part of the problem in the U.S. is that the network coverage is too low to enable a "use youre cellphone for everything" thing.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[Like2Byte]

I never said that they have a worse POTS service that the US. I said it wasn't as well established (thus, lessor-established).

Congratulations on your county's adoption of GSM network support. The US doesn't see the need to buy into it, just yet. Does that make them, or us, I should say, archaic? Maybe to your eyes. But "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Adopting GSM technology still has a cost to incur and companies aren't ready or willing to swallow that cost.

The US has a large area to cover and it is already covered with millions on miles of conduit that work with an existing network system. Replacing that system, even over time, is a costly venture that will have an economic impact on a country that is already experiencing an economic recession.

In the future, should the US head toward the use of GSM or the next latest-and-greatest communications system, the older equipment, lines and all, will have to be removed. These companies will have to foot the bill to pay for that removal.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[nomad_monster]

Radio-based telephone technology was invented in Chicago (actually Schaumburg, the suburb of chicago) by Dr. Martin Cooper, of Motorola. The patent date was 9/16/1975

BTW...This is in the middle of the US.

We did have a lead...since we actually invented it. We just suffer from the oldest implemented cell network in the world. One effect of blazing trails with technology rollout, is that you don't get to standback and study competetion from an established industry, implementing the best solution.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[twaltari]

In Finland we've had cell phone payment enabled vending machines, car washers, public transportation tickets etc. for lets say five years.

As someone already suggested, all kind on problems could arise from such use of phones. A lot of people here have a cell phone service paid by their employer. Both the employers and tax officers soon found it problematic people were buying all sorts of pricy, personal stuff with their phones. I think the telecom operators have been working on to resolve this problem by providing a possibility to split the service bill into personal and work categories... or perhaps we'll soon see phones with slots for multiple SIM cards (someting VISA, MasterCard et al have been suggesting).

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[miratrix]

Er, why does GSM vs. CDMA argument come in here? US does have GSM network, and at the end, both CDMA and GSM basically does the exactly same thing. What does GSM allow that CDMA doesn't?

Heck, CDMA may be better for financial transaction purposes like this - it's more secure and harder to clone. Also, if I remember correctly, South Korea is dominated by CDMA.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[Anonymous Coward]

Are we talking Europe the continent, or just W. Europe, all countries in Europe, or what? What are the odds Andora has great cell phone coverage? Or a Russian village just west of the Urals?

You talk about Norway's population density being less than the US. In many places, I have no doubt that's the case. However, despite the low population density, Norway is still only slightly larger than New Mexico. I bet it'd be pretty easy for AT&T or Sprint to hook up New Mexico with a bitchin' wireless setup, and have EVERYONE be covered.

In short, I think we're trying to compare apples with oranges...

Also, AT&T Wireless is now introducing GSM to many parts of the US.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[letxa2000]

While I am willing to concede that the US has much larger underpopulated areas than most of Europe, the fact still remains that in many densly populated areas, cell coverage may still be relativly poor.

I've found cell coverage in the U.S. is only poor exactly in those large, sparsely populated areas. If you're in the middle of the Mojave desert 100 miles from the nearest gas station, yeah, you probably won't have a cell signal.

That said, I've never had any problems getting a cell signal in any U.S. city I've visited. Not sure which "densely populated areas" you've found where "cell coverage may still be relatively poor." Are you just saying that, or have you really had a problem with cell phone coverage in any major U.S. city?

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[Anonymous Coward]

if you had even read the post you would notice that the article is not about the US, rather South Korea.

And for those of you who are still boo-hooing about the US not having GSM... well maybe you should go and buy a new phone, it is hard to find a new phone that doesn't suppport GSM and that other new protocal (whose acroynm escapes me at the moment).

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[5KVGhost]

US cell systems are not as good as GSM (which allows for lots of things), along with bureaucracy and software patents...

It's not that simple. GSM is less complex, but CDMA is in many ways far more flexible and robust than GSM. GSM also runs into serious problems in areas of low population density, like much of the United States and unlike most of Europe.

Two articles about the relative merits of the two systems, both by people who know a lot more about cellular phones than most of us:

http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2002/10/GSM3G. sh tml

http://michaeljennings.blogspot.com/2002_10_06_m ic haeljennings_archive.html#82598395

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

"US cell systems are not as good as GSM"

Oh. GSM isn't as good as GSM?

AT&T Wireless, Cingular, and T-Mobile all have extensive GSM 1900 systems in the US.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[Politburo]

How is poland 3rd world? This is the true dichotomy remember:

1st world: US/UK and allies during cold war.

2nd world: USSR/East Germany and allies during cold war.

3rd world: everyone unaligned (much of africa, etc.).

What happened is that small, poor countries didn't care about the cold war, so they were all listed as 3rd world countries. This led to the belief that 3rd world==poor country. That simply isn't true. Poland was part of the Warsaw (!) pact, and as such, was a 2nd world country. Obviously, the 1st, 2nd, 3rd world designation is now obsolete/historical. Any other system (including some which have a rogue "4th world" status) is simply revisionist and incorrect.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[mikerich]

You talk about Norway's population density being less than the US. In many places, I have no doubt that's the case. However, despite the low population density, Norway is still only slightly larger than New Mexico. I bet it'd be pretty easy for AT&T or Sprint to hook up New Mexico with a bitchin' wireless setup, and have EVERYONE be covered.

Yeah, but if you flattened Norway out it would be HUGE! :)

Best wishes,
Mike.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[geirhe]

In the future, should the US head toward the use of GSM or the next latest-and-greatest communications system, the older equipment, lines and all, will have to be removed. These companies will have to foot the bill to pay for that removal.

This is just plain wrong. Wireless service isn't replacing the existing network. It complements it.

A typical GSM base station has a range of up to 50 kms (maximum line-of-sight range). You still need the old copper or fibres to carry the signals between the base stations - there is no need to rip them out. You have a small amount of copper left over the last few kilometers to the customers, but it is usual for the customer to own that in modern buildings anyway - it makes it possible to switch telcos without having a number of redundant wiring systems installed.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[wannasleep]

I would like to correct few misconceptions that you seem to have:

1) the phone has not been invented by Bell. In the US, the Italian Meucci demonstrated it in 1860. He did not have the money to renew the patent. Meucci showed it to western union which then gave it to Bell. Western Union later claimed that they had lost the design. In 1887, Bell's patent was voided because of fraud and declaration of false. The sentence was later confirmed by the Supreme Court.Also, the US Congress passed a resolution on 6/11/2000 that was finally acknowledging Meucci for the invention of the telephone. Meucci started working on it in 1849 when Bell was 2 years old. Ironically, some other sources claim that another italian invented it. I don't remember his name. Also, a russian friend of mine claims that the telephone was invented by a russian. Who knows.Anyhow, time to correct those history books :)

2) In order to run a cell phone network you need plenty of cables.Unless you think that there are enough satellites to carry and route the traffic of the several hundred milions or more cell phone users.

PS: i like your Isaac Newton citation

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[Hognoxious]

In a decade or two, we'll see Kenya or Nigeria as the quickest uptake of V4, I'm sure.

If it involves the ability to extract bribes, violate human rights and intimidate political opponents, I'm sure you're right.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[Hognoxious]

Yeah, but if you flattened Norway out it would be HUGE! :)

If you flattened Belgium it would be a huge improvement.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[Hognoxious]

1) the phone has not been invented by Bell.

Pah! It was invented by Leonardo Da Vinci. Unfortunately, it was fuck all use until Bell invented another one.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[Hognoxious]

...all kind on problems could arise from such use of phones. A lot of people here have a cell phone service paid by their employer. Both the employers and tax officers soon found it problematic...

Hmm. The words 'itemised' and 'statement' spring to mind.

I think the telecom operators have been working on to resolve this problem by providing a possibility to split the service bill into personal and work categories... or perhaps we'll soon see phones with slots for multiple SIM cards

Finland? This looks more like Belgium - choose the most complicated and difficult method to solve the problem.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[You're All Wrong]

You could torture people by playing annoying tinny ringtones at them constantly!

YAW.

Re:Already accepted practice in norway

[salimma]

I believe the proper term for ex-Communist Bloc states is 'second world'.

BOOM!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do gas stations post signs that you can't use your cellphone when fueling up your car. Is there a danger or are people just scared of the invisible waves that carry voice?

Re:BOOM!!!

[thryllkill]

Electronic devices sometimes produce things called electric sparks. These electric sparks have the accused (unfairly IMNSHO) of setting gasoline fumes a blaze.

Sarcasm aside, isn't paying for gas with a cell phone a slight risk given this whole gasoline fumes and sparks don't mix situation?

Re:BOOM!!!

[Wudbaer]

So you push your car out of the filling station by hand to not ignite something when starting your engine ?

I fully understand that one should not smoke in a filling station and perhaps it is also not a good idea to phone during actually filling the car, but afterwards there shouldn't be any risk.

Re:BOOM!!!

[ajensen]

So you push your car out of the filling station by hand to not ignite something when starting your engine?

The spark in your engine is contained -- there is little or no risk of igniting gas fumes in the air. I doubt that the engine running would create a problem, although they do recommend that you keep the engine off while actually fueling your vehicle.

I think that the parent post was saying that using the cellphone in an area where you or anyone else might be fueling could be dangerous. Most of the time we're not alone at the pumps.

-a

Re:BOOM!!!

[theGreater]

Actually, most sparks involving entering / exiting one's transport vehicle typically are the fault of slick interiors and good scratchy clothes. When one slides out all in one motion, one generates a fairly large amount of static. If the next thing you do is bridge the gap between the pump and your car, you could have a little problem. And there is the BOOM! you describe. -theGreater Alternative.

Re:BOOM!!!

[DiracFeynman]

Haven't you watched the episode of Myth Busters when they tested this! They concluded that the whole idea about cell phones causing the ignition of gas fumes is a myth.

Re:BOOM!!!

[Archfeld]

err Myth ?? Several cell phones have caught on fire due to bad batteries they claim, but whatever the source, if you are pumping gas and the backflow system is not functioning properly AND your cell phone bursts into flames you could go Booom. I will likely win CA's 94 million dollar lottery tonight first but...

Can anybody say...

[KJE]

Dial M for McDonalds?

Petrol & Cell Phones

[youngerpants]

I dont know about elsewhere, but in the U.K. we aren't allowed to use our mobile phones (cell phones) in petrol stations (gas stations) as a "spark" from the phone may ignite petrolium gasses.

I think this is poppycock in theory, but obviously those very clever people in government have some evidince to the suggest this is possible.

What I guess I am saying is, who are right, the Koreans or the Brits? (my money is on the Koreans)

Re:Petrol & Cell Phones

[Seek_1]

The problem is that you're assuming that the average person actually using a gas stations has at least two brain-cells worth of intelligence.

After working at a gas station for two years during high-school, I can tell you with absolute certainty that this just plain ISN'T the case.

"What do you mean put out my cigarette? Fuck you Punk!"

Re:Petrol & Cell Phones

[Ianoo]

I think the spark theory is a bit silly. I mean, half of us have been wearing battery powered watches for the better part of 30 years, and they're much closer than a mobile phone to the fuel nozzle (as well as being constantly turned on). I don't recall ever hearing of a petrol station exploding because someone was trying to work out whether they would make it home in time for Pop Idol.

IMVHO, there's no technical reason whatsoever. The reason they tell you to turn them off is so that you don't start yakking to someone and spend longer at the pumps when other potential profits^H^H^H^H^H^Heople are queuing up behind you

Re:Petrol & Cell Phones

[phil-trick]

It hss nothing to do with sparks.

Volatile vapours in confined spaces don't normally take to well to being 'excited' by radio frequencies. Apparently this has happened, but mostly in avaition / radar applications.

Re:Petrol & Cell Phones

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a program running on Discovery at the moment 'Urban myths' I think it's called, and this is one of the things they are trailed as looking at, anyone seen it? What was the outcome?

Re:Petrol & Cell Phones

[AllUsernamesAreGone]

"but obviously those very clever people in government have some evidince to the suggest this is possible."

Nope, it's largely a combination of more-or-less urban myth and arse covering.

http://www.snopes.com/autos/hazards/gasvapor.asp
http://www.cellular-news.com/story/8885.shtml
h ttp://www.amta.org.au/?Page=174
http://www.mobile shop.org/safety/banned.htm

This statement issued by Motorola:

http://www.motorola.com/mot/documents/0,,423,00. pd f&e=7413

Re:Petrol & Cell Phones

[GigsVT]

Ever drop a lit cigarette into gasoline? It's pretty anticlimatic.

Re:Petrol & Cell Phones

[sl0ppy]

discovery channel has a new show called mythbusters. a recent episode dealt with the cell-phone/gas myth.

the conclusion was that cell phones are safe, but women pumping their own gas are at risk. while they were never able to get a cell-phone to set off gas vapors, they were able to show that static from getting in/out of the car during filling was enough to cause the fire. this, coupled with the observation that women were more likely to get back into their cars during filling, actually matched the statistics and investigations done by the dot.

amusing.

Re:Petrol & Cell Phones

[Anonymous Coward]

The "spark theory" is complete bullshit. But it's something that might just scare Joe Average from using his cell phone while tanking up.

What I think is a more likely explanation is that (and I remember this happening in the UK about, oh, 15 years ago or so) when they introduced those new pumps with digital readouts and electronic thingummabobs that measure how much fuel they're pumping out, some smartarses found out that by tuning their CB radios to a certain frequency, they could confuse the pump into letting out more fuel per money that what it said on the meter. The story finally came out when some dork got the wrong frequency and ended up paying something like 5 times the price for his fill-up and complained instead of shutting up.

Ever since, fuel companies have been leery of anyone using radio transmission equipment near the pumps. Remember that when mobile phones came out (pre-GSM, all those analogue "bricks" people used to lug around), the emitters were of the order of 2-8W, where as they're = 1W now, but still... they don't want interference.

Just my 0.02

As for the earlier post about the US having *lost* their lead in cellular phone technology: I wasn't aware they ever *had* it in the first place, same as with TV technology and many others (cars, anyone?)

Re:Petrol & Cell Phones

[Skater]

Also, Mythbusters (the TV show) tried to do everything they could to get one to blow up. No dice.

--RJ

Re:Petrol & Cell Phones

[Saint Stephen]

I've seen video on CNN of a women catching fire due to static electricity arcing to the gas she was pumping. In her panic, she flailed around the nozzle, and covered everything with gas. She died.

Since then, I've been paranoid at the pump. They said it happens to about 10 people per year.

Re:Petrol & Cell Phones

[jd678]

Story I heard was any radio device is banned at petrol stations due to the slight chance of interference with the metering systems - ie the pump stops or slows it's meter whilst still flowing petrol at the same rate. I would guess this is more on the older pumps, and a serious amount of power though.

Re:Petrol & Cell Phones

[CKW]

Nothing in the world beats having millions of people testing your product in the real world.

And in the real world, we have had 3 seperate cases of cellphones "blowing up" this year (malfunctioning severely enough to emit sparks/hot-carbon-bits).

What if they had been holding their phone in their left hand at their waist while pulling the nozzle from their gas tank when it happened?

Leave the statistics and probabilities to the experts (except when the experts have a financial incentive to ignore safety, of course ;)

Re:Petrol & Cell Phones

[fsbilly]

Or, what if they spontaneously cumbusted?

Maybe people shouldn't be allowed to pump gas at all. We can have robots do it. Wait, robots are electronic devices, too. Darn. Maybe we can get the professor to devise a coconut/palm frond/wicker pumping apparatus that'll ensure safe gas pumping forever.

Re:Petrol & Cell Phones

[fsbilly]

errr, combusted

Re:Petrol & Cell Phones

[Skater]

Actually, I am an expert. I'm a statistician. Thanks.

Probably absolutely nothing would've happened, because the vapors just aren't concentrated enough to blow.

RJ

Re:Petrol & Cell Phones

[Hognoxious]

I've seen video on CNN of a women catching fire due to static electricity arcing to the gas she was pumping. In her panic, she flailed around the nozzle, and covered everything with gas. She died.

Not seen that one. However, it's more likely she picked up static from wearing rubber-soled shoes or the car itself than a mobile phone. As I barely walk upright, and tend to lean on the car and the pump before even finding the nozzle, I suppose I'm usually pretty well earthed.

Makes sense

[Malfourmed]

Can't read the article as it's been slashdotted but the concept makes sense. Telcos are one of the few businesses which have the processing of micropayments (small amounts of money for small amounts of utility) as a core competency.

You can currently buy a Coke in Australia from a vending machine by using your mobile phone to dial the machine with the cost being tacked onto your bill. However currently this is limited to one carrier (Telstra) and of course caller ID has to be enabled for it to work.

re: makes sense

[ed.han]

interesting point re: telcos.

so does this mean that telcos are going to absorb the recording industry? i know the merger madness is over, but this would actually make a lot of sense.

ed

Ouch!

[TLouden]

What happens when you lose your cell phone. It happens often enough but when that's all that's gone it's not too bad. If it's your phone, credit card, ID, etc. that'a a hugh problem.

Re:Ouch!

[Dot.Com.CEO]

You call your mobile phone company and they cancel the service, deactivating the phone AND sim card instantly. "Hugh" problem indeed.

Re:Ouch!

[SkiddyRowe]

Oh, so simply because you lost your cell phone, Mr. Grant is automatically responsible?? I guess he is British...

Re:Ouch!

[ryanvm]

Better yet, you ask them to locate it via the GPS guts your phone has. Or is that too 1984-ish for you guys?

Re:Ouch!

[You're All Wrong]

Mobile phones have no 'GPS' guts.
Sure, you can use triangulation from base-stations to position where a phone is reasonably accurately, but it's a different technology from GPS. Cambridge Positioning Systems has the patent on it, IIRC.
Look in trade mags from 1996-1997 for write-ups.

YAW

Re:Ouch!

[TLouden]

you call them with what phone?! Some people only have a cell phone for all their calls

Re:Ouch!

[PainKilleR-CE]

Mobile phones have no 'GPS' guts.

Many mobile phones do have GPS receivers imbedded in them, even if they don't let the user have access to the GPS information. This is especially common in GSM phones because the GSM specification requires the phone to be able to give it's location (although the location information doesn't have to be as accurate as what you can get from a GPS receiver, the GPS receiver just simplifies this process for the phone manufacturers).

Re:Ouch!

[Dot.Com.CEO]

I'm sure you can still call from work, home, borrow a phone from someone (free call to your provider) or go to one of the many bricks and mortar shops they have. I'm sure if you have your phone stollen and you don't find a way to call the provider, you either are mentally deficient or are seriously, SERIOUSLY stranded. As in a desert. In which case I'd tend to think you have more serious problems than someone using your mobile phone credits.

Re:Ouch!

[ryanvm]

I thought there were a few models out there with GPS capability. If not, it'd be almost trivial for them to make one.

Re:Ouch!

[CyanDisaster]

...If it's your phone, credit card, ID, etc. that'a a hugh problem...

What does Hugh have to do with it? Doesn't he have his own phone?

Re:Ouch!

[TLouden]

Didn't we already determine that /.ers and spelling don't mix?

Re:Ouch!

[You're All Wrong]

You're pulling that out of your arse.
There's no GPS in almost all phones.
There's no positional information communicated to the base-station from the handset. Signal strength is important, location isn't.

How do I know? My code sits inside several tier 2 companies' handsets, and loads of tier 3 companies. (i.e. if it's not Nokia, Moto and Ericson, there's a chance there's my code running on it.)

YAW.

Re:Ouch!

[You're All Wrong]

And I can make a Mac/Windows box using gaffer tape and a KVM.
Well duh!

And it's not trivial. You've never worked with RF if you
think it's trivial. There's very little that can be shared
and so size-wise, and cost-wise, you're looking at being
about equal to the sum of the component parts. Gaffer taping
two separate units together would be the easiest and cheapest solution.

YAW.

Re:Ouch!

[PainKilleR-CE]

(C) Copyright Wireless Application Protocol Forum Ltd, 2000
All rights reserved
5.2 GSM Location Information
The WTA GSM user agent provides access to GSM location information. The following octets must be returned for the
GSM location information:
octets 1 - 3 Mobile Country & Network Codes (MCC & MNC), coded as specified in GSM 04.08.
octets 4 - 5 Location Area Code (LAC), coded as specified in GSM 04.08.
octets 6 - 7 Cell Identity Value (Cell ID), coded as specified in GSM 04.08.
octet 8 Timing Advance, coded as specified for the Timing Advance information element in GSM 04.08
starting at octet 2 (the IEI is removed). The Timing Advance value is that of the active dedicated
connection (call or SMS). If there is no active dedicated connection, the value is that of the last
active dedicated connection.
NOTE: The ME should store the last value of the Timing Advance.
NOTE: Using the Status value, the application can be aware of potential misinterpretation of the
Timing Advance value.
octet 9 Status, coded as a bit field:
Bit 8 Bit 7 Bit 6 Bit 5 Bit 4 Bit 3 Bit 2 Bit 1
Phone
status
NMR
present
SPARE
WAP-171-WTA IGSM, Version 07-Jul-2000 Page 11(22)
Phone status:
0 = the device is in idle mode (not connected)
1 = the device is not in idle mode
NMR (Network Measurement Results) present:
0 = the NMR field is not present
1 = the NMR field is present
The following octets are returned for the Network Measurement Results (as indicated by the NMR bit of the Status octet):
octets 10 - 25 Network Measurement Results, coded as for the Measurement Results information element in GSM
04.08 starting at octet 2 (the IEI is removed).

As for phones not using GPS, Samsung provided several thousand which used GPS to provide location information to E911 services for the winter Olympics last year. Nokia has a handful of phones that use GPS as well, as do most other cell phone manufacturers. It only takes a google search to find any of this information, and I didn't have to write code for any cell phone (and if I did write code for a cell phone, I wouldn't have to know there was a GPS system in it unless I was developing GPS features and the cell phone manufacturer actually provided developer access to the GPS (which most of these phones don't).

Re:Ouch!

[ryanvm]

You don't know what you're talking about. What do you have to say about this. "Embedded Global Positioning System technology" and they didn't even bust out the gaffer tape.

Or this article:

Last year, the Federal Communications Commission ordered cellular companies to equip all new cell phones with Global Positioning Satellite tracking devices that can pinpoint a user's location to within 300 feet, anywhere on the planet.

Next time hit Google before you decide to impersonate someone with knowledge.

Re:Ouch!

[You're All Wrong]

You call LA's location?????

LA's are typically _larger than freaking cells_.
(a 1 cell LA is perfectly possible, but a LA _contains_ cells)

The LACs are transmitted by the networks /to/ the phones in broadcast messages, the phones' job is to echo back the location
that makes the most sense (depending on network/transmitter choice).

And yes, you can buy combined GSM/GPS units - I never claimed you can't. I claimed that they share so little of their innards that it's no more space efficient nor cost efficient to produce them.

I guess a combined unit is ~$500 nowadays.
A small GPS and a small GSM phone together would be $300.

Which was my point. You might as well gaffer tape to stick your
GPS to your GSM for a "combined" unit. Much cheaper, and probably
no larger.

YAW.

Re:Ouch!

[You're All Wrong]

What do I have to say about that Samsung phone?
I say you're a fucking idiot who just shot himself in the foot. That's a CDMA phone!

And what's this "Federal Communications Commission"
Hahaha, someone thinks the whole planet is America. Wrong!
And that regulation only kicks in in 2005.

Zero out of two. Not a good score.

And note - nowhere did I say that it's impossible to put GSM and GPS in the same unit, I just said that on the whole it's not cost-effective, or space effective. That Samsung is heavier, larger, and has a shorter battery life than some GSM phones from about 4 years ago. And 4 years is a _long_ time in the world of consumer electronics.

And using the technology invented by CPS back in ~1996, it's been possible to pinpoint an ordinary GSM phone to well within 300 feet (still using feet, you Americans are funny) anyway, so there's no added value at all. Unless CDMA is less capable than GSM in that regard. I wouldn't know, CDMA has never interested me.

Next time hit your head on a wall.

YAW.

Where were you the previous five years?

[gd23ka]

Oh come on, slashdot! Payment over mobile phones is so 1990ies! Over here in Germany schemes and rackets like have gone under and been resurrected countless times.

This is definitely not news for nerds nor stuff that matters.

Re:Where were you the previous five years?

[EkiM in De]

I did see a large orange device on the front of one of the cigarette machines the other day that allowed purchases via a mobile phone. I'm not sure how it worked though.

I guess it's the perfect combination; you can go out without your wallet, but do you go out without your mobile?

Nothing new

[Baki]

In various european countries there have been initiatives like this. Very slowly some are catching on. I think it will be widespread and replace credit cards in time.

Comissions

[jedrek]

SMSes have taken over bullshit systems like PayPal as far as micropayments in Europe go. The real problem is the telecoms. Here in Poland, their cut is at least 30%, and this is on a huge discount, massive volume number - usually it's around 50%. So my friend, who runs a service that lives off SMS payments, after taxes gets about 35% of the money his customers spend. It's a shame, almost everybody in Europe has a cell phone (or at least access to one) and it's much easier, secure and impulse-buyable then any kind of credit/debit/virtual bank system.

Re:Comissions

[kevinvee]

impulse-buyable

I think this is one of the best points yet. How many layers of abstraction can we add between ourselves and our actual money? Its thing like this that give my bad money management skills the opportunity to really shine.

Re:Comissions

[NDPTAL85]

Wh do you call PayPal a bullshit system?

Re:Comissions

[AchmedHabib]

Their cut is that big in most countries because they are the ones that have to cover the loss in case theft, abuse, etc. So the company that sells the service/product will get the money anyway and the phone company will take the loss. So their cut is bigger due to the risk they take.

Re:Comissions

[jedrek]

Because it doesn't work in the country I live and work in.

Re:What kind of attitude is that?

[cableshaft]

Perhaps if it were read more like "South Korea sets another technological trendsetter..." I would agree with that, but the particular wording it has suggests that they are not a trendsetter yet (hence the "effort to establish" phrase) and that it just wants to be "a" trendsetter and not "the" trendsetter, or only.

I.E., they're trying to show the world that they have some worth so they're pushing new technology, not because they think they're better than everyone else, but because they think they are worth more than how rest of the world is treating them.

Re:Who says "petrol?"

[Anonymous Coward]

All English speaking pepole who don't live on the continent of North America.

Great

[t4b00]

This is the kind of Technology I like to see.
Should be interesting for Americans to see other countries are able to innovate aswell.
I for one think we should integrade as many technologies into the cell phone as possible IE: Camera, Phone, Email, addressbook, Global Positioning System, Environment Controls for Home Central Air system, Universal Entertainment Remote for TV DVD etc... calculator, the list goes on and on, sure why not make purchases with it too. Model it after the Star Trek (tm) Tri-corder and Beam me up Scotty!

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

Hehehe, I don't think it's so much a case of other countries not doing innovating stuff all these years as opposed to them just not being all that vocal about whatever they get up to. Things tend to get drowned out pretty easily by the US-based/focused media.
Considering, we, in South Africa, have been doing online banking and shopping since the mid-80s when the Internet still mostly consisted of SMTP/NNTP stuff; seven years ago I was using my cell phone to authorize/gain access to online services and three/four years ago got a full secure banking application that ran on my SIM card.
I suspect a lot of the cultural differences revolves around whether society loves technology for technology's sake or see it as just another enabling tool.

Not boom, hopefully. Maybe hack, though.

[ajensen]

Cell phones tend to build up a static charge due to their emission of electromagnetic waves, which, in some cases, can cause a spark. The same is true when people get back in their cars while fueling, since the door opening and closing can create static buildup. It's a legitimate concern.

I'm mostly surprised that these people adopted this new technology and use it to transfer such sensitive information. Hopefully the three industries also worked together to build a solid encryption system.

It also seems like a stretch that people would easily be able to do all the things they list -- e.g., post things to a campus website. I know how hard it is for me to check my hotmail account from my Sprint PCS phone.

Cheers,

-a

Stolen Phone/Credit

[thryllkill]

"In the future thieves only will have to steal one handset," Lee said. "It will be their window to your world." - Sapa-AP

Maybe that's not what they said. But with the recent theft of my T-Mobile Sidekick fresh in my mind, I am hesitant to put so much faith in my easiliy pilferable devices.

(counter-point: credit cards can be stolen, yes, but my sidekick was not nearly as wallet/back pocket friendly as a credit card, thus not suck to my ass all day giving it a better chance of being stolen)

Re:Stolen Phone/Credit

[t4b00]

Anything can be stolen, that goes for the credit card in your wallet just as well as the cell phone in your (other) pocket. Cellphones can be Password Protected. My point is, while you have a valid point, solutions exist.

Re:Stolen Phone/Credit

[musikit]

not really. theives would only need to steal your cell ID number (i believe it's called an ESN number) which will make the cell system think your phone is yours. so if they program a phone with it they are effectively you. they can then send money to themselves via SMS.

Re:Stolen Phone/Credit

[BenjyD]

Except that you can cancel the phone "in seconds" according to the article. Plus, for transactions beyond buying cans of coke, you need a passcode, making it significantly more secure than the standard signature based credit card system. I doubt anyone will bother nicking your phone in order to buy 1000 cans of coke.

The transaction data is encypted too, so you won't get people hanging around checkouts with radio/IR receivers stealing details, and the cashier can't copy your card number too, like they can with credit cards.

Re:Stolen Phone/Credit

[Anonymous Coward]

All you need to steal a VISA card is a look at it. Any restaurant owner can write down your card number and expiration date (and the security key on the back is no protection, because they can copy that down too). Nobody complains about VISA cards being insecure. Why? Because you have a guaranteed maximum amount of money you can lose if your card gets stolen (and the amount is small, though I don't recall what exactly it is), and it's easy to block a card and have a new one reissued. In fact, an e-commerce site I used once had their entire cardnumber database stolen due to some MS exploit. I only found out about it when VISA sent me a letter informing me that my card was blocked and I should visit my bank to get the new one. I still pay with VISA on e-commerce sites.

I see no reason why cellphone payments (which I use every once in a while, living in Belgium) are inherently less safe.

Thieves want your money, not your identity.

Re:Stolen Phone/Credit

[RMH101]

that would be for analogue phones then. you'd be talking about an IMEI number for digital phones that aren't 80s throwbacks like the old AMPS systems are.
you can't clone these in much the same way you can't clone someone's (smart) bank card - it's possible, but you need physical possession of the device and it's really only governmental agencies that are going to be able to pull it off...

Re:Stolen Phone/Credit

[spidergoat2]

Thieves won't need to steal your handset. They'll probably be able to do it via bluetooth or infrared. Your pocket will be picked and you won't feel a thing.

Re:Stolen Phone/Credit

[Lumpy]

...thus not suck to my ass all day giving it a better chance of being stolen...

if your wallet is sucked to your ass... time to get a new wallet.

Re:Stolen Phone/Credit

[bleak sky]

And for GSM phones, you would have to steal the actual SIM card, not just an ID number...

I think a similar concept applies to next-generation CDMA phones, but I'm not sure.

Re:Stolen Phone/Credit

[juhaz]

And if someone does steal the phone (or just the card), you can always (at least in here) inform your operator and they put it on a black list, so nobody can use that card anymore.

Re:Stolen Phone/Credit

[Hognoxious]

if your wallet is sucked to your ass... time to get a new wallet.

Each to his own, duckie.

As if ...

[theGreater]

...cellphones weren't already complex enough? I don't carry a Swiss Army Knife or a Leatherman, when all I need is one blade. For the very same reason, I'm strongly against most cluttery "features" like this.

First give me a product that has a useable interface and spend some time making sure I can dial the thing one-handed. Add useful PHONE features, not useful kitchen utensils and assorted toys. Use that extra space on a huge battery I only have to charge once a week. In short, make my cellphone better, not just different.

-theGreater Luddite.

Re:As if ...

[You're All Wrong]

Insightful? Just plain ignorant, more like.

These aren't "cluttery" features. This feature has been possible since the first GSM phones of the 1980s. There's no change to the
phone at all. So chose your long battery life phone that you can
dial one-handed, and then just use it normally. Dialing or
SMS-ing particular service numbers doesn't change your phone's
size, weight, or usability.

Sheesh.

YAW.

Re:As if ...

[theGreater]

I'm talking about the general tendency toward constantly adding "one more thing" to my phone. I understand that SMS is no big deal. Neither are a lot of things. But 1,000 no big deals stuffed into what is supposed to be a phone is going too far.

And this particular no big deal has an RF transmitter, according to the article. Add imaging capabilities, another no big deal. Throw in a couple of games, also small. Just keep adding and adding until I've got a Windows CE environment just so I can call home and tell the wife I'll be late for dinner.

As an aside, it would be useful to note that we are each stating our personal opinions and preferences. What is useful to you might be cluttery to me, and vice versa. All I'm asking for is a choice -- a simple alternative.

-theGreater

Re:As if ...

[Politburo]

..cellphones weren't already complex enough? I don't carry a Swiss Army Knife or a Leatherman, when all I need is one blade. For the very same reason, I'm strongly against most cluttery "features" like this.

Great 'insightful' analogy except that it's so simply broken. When you add tools to your blade, it gets larger and bulkier. When you add features to your cell phone, it (for the most part) does not change size, shape or weight.

Re:As if ...

[theGreater]

From R'ing TFA, you will no doubt have noticed that this particular 'feature' includes an IR beam. If you show me the code to spit an IR beam out without hardware, I'll be happy to withdraw my statement.

-theGreater Sarcastic.

Re:As if ...

[Politburo]

How about I just show you the thousands of IR ports that are very small and will not require any major change to the form factor of the device?

You said in another post here you're only looking for a choice. Fine. I'll tell you what I've been telling every other naysayer I've met: step aside, and let us who wish to proceed with progress. You know as well as I that society is not going to wake up one day and require one of these devices. One does not even need a cellphone or computer in this society. If you don't want to use it, don't.

Re:As if ...

[juhaz]

The korean implementation may require IR, but there's a washing mashine downstairs I can call into and get billed either straight from a bank account or in the phone bill, no technical requirements for a phone whatsoever.

Re:As if ...

[You're All Wrong]

When it comes to "features" I agree with you 100%.
One man's feature is another man's gimmick.

I have no gimmicks, and very few features on my phone,
as I use it to phone, SMS, and tell me the time.
(Shit, I lie, I've got a crappy unwanted game on it, I
don't consider it a feature!)

YAW.

Its simple tech but...slow..

[smzala]

SMS gateways are getting slower by the day... imagine waiting at a checkout queue and somebody in front of you waiting for a SMS to arrive....

SMS service center equipments and standards needs to be upgraded first.

It will be a great service when implemented correctly, several companies in europe has already tried it.. car wash, wending machines.

but its damn slow.. slower than waiting for a credit card slip to print out...

Re:Its simple tech but...slow..

[Mattsson]

But the Korean version didn't use sms.
It had a separate tranceiever for sending credit data, working just like your creditcard.
The way I understood the article, you not only had to point it at the reciever, it was also encrypted and you had to enter a code to use it.
Which would, hopefully, make it harder to copy than the magnetic stripe on your creditcard.
That's one of the *really* bad things about creditcards. They're easy to copy and many places do not require your code before accepting payment.

Re:Its simple tech but...slow..

[smzala]

my post was actually misplaced.. it was in response to some posts which discussed about SMS payments in europe.

anyways, as per the article, developing new techno for payments will just lead to Japanese mess. you have a great product that works in a country and a closed user group, not for people in general.

imagine, these devices when deployed will need a receiver equipment for payments. i.e. the Point of sale terminals and other modes of payment receiving equipments will have to undergo a upgrade or new equipment will be deployed.

SMS payments are the simplest form, every mobile supports it, and the receiver equipment is simple (another mobile phone connected to a computer). now, with one payment receiving equipment any number of P.O.S. terminals or check-out counters can receive mobile payments...

only if SMS becomes fast enough.

we have this in estonia

[Anonymous Coward]

not very widely used, but every shop/taxidriver/whoever can easily open an account for accepting payments via cellular phones in Estonia.

It works like this:
you call to some number, enter the (numerical) id of the shop, the sum of the purchase and your pin-code, after which the payment is done from your banking account (you have to tie your banking account with your cellular phone), the merchandizer gets sms, that its done, and you walk away with your stuff. It is mainly used by taxidrivers and shops in the middle of nowhere, where they do not have credit-card terminals for some reason.

We have had this for a year now!

[Anonymous Coward]

Here in Estonia we have had cellphone-based payments for over a year now. And we've been able to pay using a cellphone for over three years now. This is old news for us. We are the only tradesetter in the world ;)

Oh and most porn sites around here also accept payments via SMS... Yummy! :D

It's funny...

[gilesjuk]

In the UK they have these signs about not using your phone yet some petrol stations have mobile phone masts on top of them.

Yeah

[lazyl]

Sounds like what happens when you lose your wallet. What's the diff?

Re:Yeah

[Anonymous Coward]

With credit cards, in most countries you're covered beyond a certain amount from the time you report it. I doubt smellphone operators are quite so quick to cancel a stolen item.

Car park payment with cellphones in Netherlands

[CvD]

Here in the Netherlands there are a bunch of places where you can pay for car parking by cellphone. You send an SMS message (or place a call) to a number when you park, along with an area code, and you send another one when you leave. They'll deduct the time you were in the parkingspace from your account (you set up an account beforehand).

Check Emopay (in Dutch only, sorry), for more information.

Cheers,

Costyn.

Re:Car park payment with cellphones in Netherlands

[iantri]

What happens if the message isn't received?

There was a Slashdot story months ago about how (with the cheapest carriers) a good percentage of SMS messages never arrive at their destination.. I'd be a bit concerned to use this if there was a chance the parking lot people might suddenly want money for 24 hours worth of parking out of me..

Re:Car park payment with cellphones in Netherlands

[CvD]

That's true... perhaps they also receive a confirmation SMS for this purpose. Although I've never really heard anyone here in the Netherlands complain about SMS messages not arriving, it is a valid concern.

Cheers,

Costyn.

cellphone payments widely implemented in estoni

[Anonymous Coward]

the tide of paying by cellphone is widening every day in estonia. moblie parking (paying for parking with phone), moblie tickets for transportations and all sorts of applications have been developed during the past few years. btw stolen cars send sms to their owners in estoni as well...

Kool...

[MoeMoe]

It's a great idea and all but there are problems I forsee that could arise.

I used to work as a cell phone dealer, everyone wanted a cellphone after they became a fashion statement and parents were siging up for 1-2 year contracts in order to let their 9 year old children have a new toy to show off at school (like the recently releasedN-Gage for example). The problem is that if you give a child a cellphone like this, it is the same as handing them your credit card. It was rare that these parents I tried explaining the plans to cared to listen so when they got their $400.00 bill they came to me screaming. No matter how advanced the system, a phone like this in the hands of a child could cause serious problems for their parents. It isn't bad enough that going over the minutes in your plan will give you a $200.00 bill, now you have to worry about your child who wants a pony... You just gave them the ability to buy one!

The only other major concern I have would be how to incorporate a solid security system. I am sure that a PIN system will be implemented, but there are always those few foolish people who don't care to remember their PINs by heart and would rather leave it saved as a message or note in their phone. Now what would happen WHEN (not IF, dear reader) that cell phone is lost? I can't tell you how many times A DAY I used to have my customers come in (some literally in tears) telling me they had their phone stolen or lost. I could just see the mass hysteria cell phone dealers of the future would have to deal with when a customer loses one of these...

Re:Kool...

[emilymildew]

Okay, but how is this different from the jerks who write their PINs on their banking / debit cards? I'm sure they run crying to their bank when their bank cards get stolen.

I can't say that the idea of my cell phone being MORE attractive to theives is realy all that appleaing, but the ease of use sort of makes up for it. We'd all have to be a little more cautious and careful with how we handle ourselves, and in return, we'd have all this convenience. Give and take, right?

Re:Kool...

[MoeMoe]

Unless you are reffering to the signature strip on the back of the card, I'm not exactly sure where you would write down the PIN. The reason it would be a bigger issue in the case of cell phone usage is because there are many ways to store text or numbers in it. With a card, most (not all) people realize that putting your PIN in the same place as your card or card numbers is dangerous, if you stored your PIN on a cellphone however, to some people it would be the equivalent to saving your voicemail password. You are correct though, there is a trade off: convenience for security.

All in all though you do have a point about the ease of use benefit.

Re:Kool...

[Anonymous Coward]

The run-away billing is essentially a non-issue. Just use prepaid services. I don't know if the american operators have bothered rolling it out, but cell phones only really took off here (South Africa) when prepaid services became available that allowed people to buy airtime as/when they needed/could afford it. And removes all the hassles from the operator of trying to squeeze money out of someone for services already delivered. And, of course, to make things even easier you can top up your prepaid account from just about every other ATM or even buy some over the air.
Losing a phone/SIM is not more a secrity risk than losing your bank ATM card which of course also uses a simple PIN security mechanism. Most internet banking services here use cell phones and SMS to request authorization on larger transactions or to simply keep you informed of activity on your account.

Re:Kool...

[POPE Mad Mitch]

This is just not an issue for the majority of mobile phone users if you have a vaguely sane phone system, like eg. the uk.

If a child has a mobile phone, it will be on one of the Pay As You Go schemes that every network provider offers, your child would likely have at most 5ukp worth or credit on the phone, and if it all gets used up then tough, you give them no more until their next monthly allowance, same as pocket money. The kids then quickly learn how to budget and limit their own usage.

Similarly for many adults (i would speculate probably the majority of adults) who also have a PayG based phone, if it gets stolen then all you loose is the credit that was already on there, and the phone itself (from 60ukp up) which you likely have insurance cover for, so your losses are limited, unlike someone stealing a credit card off you.

Making payments from your phone would be a simple matter of sending an SMS message (something every phone user knows how to do) to the number listed for payments. A lot of premium cost SMS services in the uk now use the new shortcode 5 digit numbers, and can cost 1ukp or more per message, there are even several satellite tv channels dedicated to this kind of thing, with a quid a message chat systems and the like.

Whilst on the subject of phones, i see many north americans complaining about getting junk phone calls on their mobiles, and how they dont give out their mobile numbers to people, that just doesnt really happen here, as it costs you nothing to receive a phone call on your mobile, it just costs the caller a lot more than it would to call a landline, and with mobiles having their own seperate area codes you know in advance what the call costs will be, so they just dont cold call to mobiles.

You do however get some SMS spam to mobiles, as the costs are lower than calls, but i have only ever had junk messages from my network provider.

Re:Kool...

[PainKilleR-CE]

This is actually a fairly interesting point, given that eventually someone's bound to put a feature into a phone that displays the PIN to the user whenever they try to make one of these transactions, simply because some percentage of users want the feature. My phone, which is extremely simple by most standards, has a feature that allows you to store information with a password, and is advertised (in the manual) as a place to store your PIN numbers and other passwords, so you only have to remember one password (to get into the password-protected area of the phone). To me, this is like putting everything on one piece of paper and putting it in an envelope hanging around your neck. I have no idea how secure the data is outside of being passworded on the phone, and I don't want to find out. There's no way in hell anything other than names and phone numbers is going to be stored in my phone.

I *almost* like the idea of using my phone as a replacement for my credit card, but it would definitely have to have a PIN and would have to be billed directly to the credit card, not to the phone bill. As it stands, there are only very limited circumstances under which my phone bill would change from one month to the next (thanks to unlimited local and long distance calls as long as I'm within my area code), and I wouldn't want that to change. I use my debit card primarily because I can access the account at any time from my phone and online to see my current balance and keep track of my spending, and anything else would more than likely send me spiralling into severe debt.

Re:Kool...

[Politburo]

Wow. Okay scenario one is simple, turn this off on your kid's phone! Whew. That was hard! Kids have had phone lines for years, and typically have the 900 and long distance shut off just for this reason. If this can't be done on cellular systems, then it's a severe lack of foresight by the designers of the system (failure to emulate land-line features of the network, which customers will invariably want).

Now onto scenario two, it's no different from an ATM pin, so there is no need to address the issue. PINs are considered secure in our society. If a few people aren't secure with a PIN, they shouldn't use this, or an ATM card.

Both of your scenarios present trivial speed bumps on the path to a useful system.

Re:Kool...

[MoeMoe]

It seems like you haven't read the original post... Your giving solutions to problems I didn't raise nor would bother to.

Wow. Okay scenario one is simple, turn this off on your kid's phone!

Who said that the phone belonged STRICTLY to the child in the first place? What if mom or dad gave this child the phone as a "hand me down" because they are getting a new one. Out of the many cell phones out there, atleast a few owners of these phones will forget to disable this service. Besides this, I can't tell you how much more knowledge children possess on technology then their elders. If a child new that this service was once available on their phone, they would figure out a way to contact the service provider and re-enable it if they wanted. The same theory goes for unlockign SIM cards for instance, customers aren't technically supposed to do it, but many teenagers know the right way to ask to get it done.

As for the ATM pin security, apparently you didn't bother to read the section correctly. Having a PIN number as security is fine, but if someone stores their PIN number DIRECTLY ON THE PHONE, that could cause problems. Wtih an ATM card there is no where to store your PIN (except the signature area on the back, a problem which I have never heard arise). On a cellular phone you store numbers everywhere: the phonebook, datebook, organizer.... The odds are that just like people store their voicemail passwords on their cellphone (a no-no in the cell phone world), a few people who have this service (even if only a few) will end up doign the same with their PIN number (an even bigger no-no).

Re:Kool...

[Politburo]

So you invented some wacky scenarios to prove me "wrong." In scenario one, first the parents are stupid (for 'forgetting' to disable features), then the kid is a super genius (for social engineering the cell phone company into turning them back on - ha!). In scenario two, if someone stores the PIN on the phone, they are stupid. Sure, you can't write the ATM number on the card, but many cards come with a paper sleeve you could write the number on, or you could use your own piece of paper with the PIN on it and keep it with the card in your wallet. Voila. Stupid people will be stupid people, and that's no reason to stop the rest of us.

Re:Kool...

[MoeMoe]

These were the scenarios I originally stated in my first post... They are not "wacky". Problems like this can, and have occured in REAL LIFE situations (people stealing a username or password for example). But in this case the consequences are much more adverse. Ofcourse there will be stupid people, but that's the entire problem. People who either are too lazy or too forgetful will suffer the initial consequences (the banks and service providers later). Now out of the millions of people worldwide who use a cellphone and may suffer this scenario, how many do you think will be affected? Even if your answer is a relatively small amount, it will still have a major impact for the service providers and banks associated with the service(One perosn could equal ALOT of money).

As for the piece of paper being held with the card, it's still not as bad as having the PIN directly written on the card itself, if you lose your card people can't use it without that PIN which is on a SEPERATE piece of paper (unless you decided to glue the paper to your card which is just too stupid to handle), but if you lose your phone which you stored your PIN in... Well, then you have a problem now don't you?
Besides, not many people would put so much effort into keeping a seperate piece of paper around unless it was inside an organizer. When that organizer is the card itself (cell phones store numbers, remember)... Uh-oh.

Re:Kool...

[Mogrol]

A simple and elegant solution to this problem and the problem that could arise if your phone was stolen would be if the operators combined pre paid with montly billing.

This way, if you order a service via sms or making a call it would deduct money from your pre paid part of the account and if you make normal calls it would end up on the bill.

And if you're out on money in the pre paid part of the service. And if people needed to fill the pre paid part it should be possible using to transfer from the montly billing to the pre paid with some code as authorization.

Simple and elegant solution to both problems imo.

Re:Kool...

[Jetson]

The problem is that if you give a child a cellphone like this, it is the same as handing them your credit card.

The providers in my area all offer various "kid-proof" packages that feature a prepaid balance, usually don't permit added-cost services like SMS or web surfing, and either don't allow long-distance or limit it to a single pre-registered number (known as the "call-home option"). Once the kids use up their monthly quota they can only call 9-1-1 or the call-home number. This teaches kids to budget their time, and prevents the parents from getting a $200 invoice for exceeding the plan limits.

Re:Kool...

[Grizzlysmit]

I used to work as a cell phone dealer, everyone wanted a cellphone after they became a fashion statement and parents were siging up for 1-2 year contracts in order to let their 9 year old children have a new toy to show off at school (like the recently releasedN-Gage for example). The problem is that if you give a child a cellphone like this, it is the same as handing them your credit card. It was rare that these parents I tried explaining the plans to cared to listen so when they got their $400.00 bill they came to me screaming.

yep so true unless it's available in a non credit pre pay mode I wouldn't touch it, credit is mostly for suckers.

merging cell carriers and credit card companies...

[*weasel]

yeah... could we get a few more convicted monopolists into this system? perhaps Microsoft could build the proprietary network interface to handle all this secure data transfer and storage via passport or something...

are we just -hoping- that they decide to play nice with their fees and standards and data security?

sure it -sounds- like a good idea... wait no. it only sounds -futuristic-. it sounds like something spock would do at a vending machine. so it must be good right?

please. is swiping a plastic card so difficult?

even ignoring the added security problems of a wireless network - it just sounds unnecessary.

If Nigerian scammers get my cellphone,

[spidergoat2]

can they drain my bank account?

I do!

[mschoolbus]

I already make some payments from my cell phone.

I love GRPS...

car keys/house keys should be next

[Schlemphfer]

Many people these days are stuck carrying around three things when they go out: a phone to communicate, a wallet to pay for stuff, and a set of keys for car and house. This is silly.

There's no reason why an infrared or bluetooth port on a cellphone couldn't be made to unlock doors and start ignitions. Think how great would it be to only need one device to communicate, start your car, and pay for whatever you need when you go out.

Up until now, the cell phone has added yet another thing to take with you and keep track of when you go out. Instead, with a bit of innovation using already-existing technologies, it could easily be the only thing you need to bring. I'd be more than happy to skip the camera/color screen/instant messaging features for my next phone -- what I really want is for my cellphone get rid of my keys and wallet.

Re:car keys/house keys should be next

[MoeMoe]

And what do you suppose will happen when a reverse engineer figures out the encryption technique used and just intercepts the outgoing signal from your "key"? That is assuming ofcouse it is encrypted, otherwise any old universal garage door opener or infrared receiver will do the job.

By the way, with monthly rates from providers like Nextel (former indirect dealer) going up so high, you will be "getting rid of" your wallet (or what's in it atleast) and keys (lease payment due yet?) soon enough.

Re:car keys/house keys should be next

[jam244]

Exactly...

The fact that a phone is capable of this is just a novelty. This, combined with a list of features that are remarkably diffcult to perform on mobile phones as well as obscelete infrastructure, has slowed the process.

It is much more likely that as this and similar technologies progress, we will see a conglomeration of devices into something like a Personal Electronic Assistant (but probably with a better acronym than PEA =)

And why couldn't it combine the current capabilities of PDAs, credit cards, keys, music players, email, floss, etc.? Again, we're limited by infrastructure and the previous failure of similar but scaled down all-in-one electronic packages in the past.

Re:car keys/house keys should be next

[YrWrstNtmr]

"Honey, the front door won't open"
"Is the phone working?"
"damn...forgot to charge the battery last night!"

Sometimes, the lowtech answer is best.

Re:car keys/house keys should be next

[Schlemphfer]

And what do you suppose will happen when a reverse engineer figures out the encryption technique used and just intercepts the outgoing signal from your "key"?

I think if that happens, it wouldn't tangibly affect the amount of car theft. Just look how things are today. Almost every police officer or tow truck operator carries what's essentially a fancy coat hanger in their trunk that will slide under the window and unlock just about any car door. And any second-rate thug knows how to hot wire a car or jimmy the door to your house. Yet, even with this, car theft and burglary isn't an enormous problem.

But having said that, I'll concede the point that bluetooth isn't appropriate. Fine. I'll still happily take a line-of-sight infrared (or, better yet, laser) device to open my door, start my car, and get into my house. That way, I'll never have to worry about my car and house entry codes getting leaked.

Re:car keys/house keys should be next

[bluGill]

Most thugs do not know how to hot wire a car. Any car built since sometime about 1970 has a steering wheel lock. Unless you can pick the lock (not hot wire it the car!) you cannot drive the car. Really old cars, hot wireing ment just that: one wire from the battery to the coil (the hot wire) and the car will run just fine, and you can drive away. If the car wasn't locked you can do the entire operation in a minute. With the steering wheel lock, you can't do that, either you have to pick the lock (a much harder skill to learn), or take the steering column apart (without an airbag you can do that in 20 minutes enough time to attract attention). Modern car theives either look for keys in the ignition (very common), or have a tow truck.

Re:car keys/house keys should be next

[OAB]

Steering locks are a joke, they can be broken with a couple of good kicks, it just adds to the repair cost if you ever get the car back.

Re:car keys/house keys should be next

[twaltari]

Some of this is already here. There are several vendors supplying door locks that can be opened with a cell phone (http://www.ouman.fi/english/lammonsaatimet/eh60/e h60.html).
A few friends of mine have a cottage a few hours drive from their house. On the way there they call the cottage's cell phone system to switch the sauna stove or electric heating on.

Here in Helsinki we have a car sharing community where you pay certain sum; The club owns a bunch of cars parked in the downtown when they are not used. When a member wants to use the car, he reserves it using web or cell phone. When he goes for to use it, he calls the car's cell phone, which opens the car's doors. Car keys are inside the car. After using it he parks it in downtown and leaves the keys inside. He only pays for gas and some nominal fee per hour for using it (this should cover insurance and maintenance). This car share club aims to fulfill the needs of people who only occasionally have a need for a car (usually they use the excellent Helsinki area public transportation system). It's a great idea, but as far as I know, the project hasn't been a huge success; the problem is all the members want to reserve the car for the weekend and it remains mostly unused during the week.

Re:car keys/house keys should be next

[Anonymous Coward]

In a PKI challenge-response system, intercepting the signal would not be enough. Next try, you would need another signal.

Re:car keys/house keys should be next

[Politburo]

How does your scenario prove that the lowtech solution is the best? Surely any system would have backups in case of failure, or else people wouldn't buy it.

Re:car keys/house keys should be next

[Lumpy]

Think how great would it be to only need one device to communicate, start your car, and pay for whatever you need when you go out.

it exists, it's called an ibutton

and can do everything you say. in fact my harley starts with it, I can unlock my doors to my home with it.. and it can act as a creditcard/debitcard/micropayment device. plus it's 10 times more secure than any creditcard,key,smartcard. and much more durable and can be worn as a ring (as I have mine.)

the thing holding it back is adoption. NOBODY want's to give up their "custom" control they have for their service.

if you make a system open enough for multiple uses, then company Z loses complete control over something..

Re:car keys/house keys should be next

[YrWrstNtmr]

A backup, in the case of a front door lock, would presumably be a keyed lock. Such as we have now.

Either you carry your backup key with you, defeating the concept of carrying no keys, or you have inside the (now locked and inaccessible) house.

People buy all kinds of motorized, electronic stuff with no backup in case of failure. Electric windows on cars. No backup, and if/when it fails...you're out of luck. Either can't get the window down in an emergency, or can't roll it up as it starts to rain, and the motor fails.

Backup for en electric window would be a crank. How many do you see on cars with elec windows?

Re:car keys/house keys should be next

[Politburo]

The electric window scenario sounds like you've got me beat, except for a few simple points.

1. A car window is not a door into your house. It is simply not 'required'. The only situation I can think of where it's anywhere near important is if you happen to drive into a lake. Don't forget that it's also possible to kick out the windows.

2. Cars are made as cheap as possible. The inclusion of both systems would require more engineering than deemed necessary by the auto makers, and I tend to agree. I happen to have a broken passenger side motor, and it's rarely a problem. Driver's side I would just get fixed.

Anyway, if the backup to an electronic lock is a keyed lock (and it most likely is), you haven't defeated the purpose. Many people store keys to their houses hidden on the property. If you don't want to do that, you can always kick in a window (hell, that's your solution if you lose your key today and don't have a backup on the property/with a friend).

Re:car keys/house keys should be next

[Seekerofknowledge]

With only one device, think how great it would be when it broke. You are both locked out of your car, cannot buy what you need to fix it, and have no way of calling anyone to come and help you.

Re:car keys/house keys should be next

[MatrixBandit]

I'm sorry, "reverse engineer" the "encryption technique" ?? Look, how many times have we all ordered merchandise online with our debit cards? How many times have you typed your password into your bank website to get a balance or transfer money into/out of savings?? If you have that little faith in this "mystical" thing called encryption I suggest you unplug your computer and go back to sleep.

Is it not possible for a mobile phone to utilize something like AES for its wireless transactions? Who's to say the "encryption technique" is going to be a constant? The same issue if not more so concerns standard garage door openers. I remember hearing about people intercepting and recording the frequencies used for anothers garage door and then rebroadcasting them later to gain access. This ended up resulting in alot of garage door manufactures making systems that changed the frequencies used on the fly every time the opener and door communicated. Even this was still not 100% secure but at least it makes it a bit more of a challange for the interceptor to reconstruct and figure out how the door is telling the remote what the next frequencies will be.

My point is, the issue of wireless communication security is only an issue if you're broadcasting unencrypted data, or if you don't trust the encryption scheme.

The outcry here seems to be that people hate the idea of having all this functionality added to their phone. But the thing is, it really stopped just being a phone when you could instant message someone on yahoo, or email your friend in Taiwan. Or was it when you could get stock quotes, or lookup a recipe for long island ice tea? That's a good a line to draw as any. The point is, it may look like a phone but we've left that sole function device a very long time ago. It's gone. So sad. I'm done mourning, let's move on.

A conundrum:

[Dr. Photo]

I read about this the other day in the Journal; the article there was about an Aussie phone company partnering with Coke to enable purchasing drinks from a vending machine with your cellphone. The article also mentioned the potential for just about anything to be purchased in this manner. The product prices are just added to your phone bill.

And I soon got to thinking, what about people who have kids, or especially teenagers, and want to give them cellphones (very useful in an emergency, f'rinstance). Suddenly, giving them a cellphone is tantamount to giving them a credit card.

And someone is going to come up the idea of a special cell phone, or a special subscription, that disables cellphone-based purchases, and some bozo is going to try and patent that idea, despite the fact that you heard it here first.

Re:A conundrum:

[ynohoo]

Mobile phone salesman: Sir, would you like this phone enabled for debit payments?
customer: no thank you, it's for my child.

anything not forbidden is compulsory

Re:A conundrum:

[emilymildew]

Hasn't it already been stated that, in most cases of this technology, it can't happen until you tie your bank account to your phone?

Therefore, no bank account, no tie to the phone, no problem giving your teenager a phone.

Re:A conundrum:

[Anonymous Coward]

"giving them a cellphone is tantamount to giving them a credit card"

Three-quarters of cellphones in Europe are pre-paid. So actually, it's like giving the kids ten bucks or whatever.

Re:A conundrum:

[drunkentiger]

And someone is going to come up the idea of a special cell phone, or a special subscription, that disables cellphone-based purchases, and some bozo is going to try and patent that idea, despite the fact that you heard it here first.

Isn't that just a regular cell phone?

Re:A conundrum:

[Hognoxious]

a special subscription, that disables cellphone-based purchases,

Isn't that just a regular cell phone?

Yes, until they enable these services by default.
Without telling you.
It would be like, say, making administrator accounts not password protected by default. Of course nobody would be that stupid, would they?

Whatever

[lazyl]

I don't buy that. The chances must be astronomical. Somebody else posted that the UK has a law preventing cell phone use in gas stations because of this. That's retarted. Has this ever actually happend before?

Re:Whatever

[ajensen]

The message is nothing but an urban legend, say representatives from the wireless and petroleum industries. But it's clearly one with legs: It has made the rounds online for the past three years, according to Snopes.com, a website dedicated to debunking urban myths.

The rest of the above article is available at this Wired page. So it sounds like it's mostly legend, although the remote possibility does exist.

-a

Parking tickets

[Danta]

In Copenhagen, Denmark, you have been able to pay parking tickets with your cellphone for over a year now. There are also supposed to be some vending machines where you can pay with your cellphone, but I haven't seen any of them yet.

Security...

[SealBeater]

They better lock this thing down tight...

SealBeater

Re:Security...

[Dragoon]

With all the recent wifi hacks, yea, they had better lock this down, a laptop hidden under the counter with a reciever next to the 'legtimate' reciver could capture thousands of cards, making the cards quite insecure in premise.

A neat ide would be to use the card as your public key, and your thumbprint as a private key, heh. Go all star trek-ish.

I'd sign up...

[Anne_Nonymous]

...if they offer a plan with free unlimited weekend money.

japan's had this for awhile

[andih8u]

See this article from the August 2000 issue of Japan, Inc which talks about paying for vending machine purchases this way. The technology has also been adopted by convenience stores, etc. I don't think south korea is exactly breaking any new ground here.

Europe

[cyberbob2010]

If I remember correctly - about two years ago fresh gear (tech TV) ran a story on how some smaller European countries such as Finland and Sweden were setting up such networks through the use of Nokia phones.
Any more news on that?
Did they ever go through with it?

Re:Europe

[Hognoxious]

If I remember correctly - about two years ago fresh gear (tech TV) ran a story on how some smaller European countries such as Finland and Sweden were setting up such networks through the use of Nokia phones.

I guess, especially for the former, it's a good excuse to avoid talking to anyone.

Fiction. :)

[wo1verin3]

I remember when this concept was fiction in the IBM commercial in a small Italian (?) town using a cell to pay for a pop from a machine.

it requires a pin code

[Anonymous Coward]

I read somewhere that their system requires the use of a pin code. So when you lose your phone, just call amex or visa to cancel your card and very probably nobody has been able to use your card (through the phone). Much smaller risk than with the actual card....

Biased introduction

[pubjames]

In one of South Korea's latest efforts to establish itself as a technology trendsetter,

What a biased way to introduce the subject! South Korea is a technology trendsetter in terms of mobile phone technology, as are several other countries including Estonia, Norway and Japan. The USA isn't. Get over it.

Re:Biased introduction

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, this is nothing new and has been available in Europe for years. For example, here is a page that describes mobile payments with mobile phone in Estonia, called m-account. On the sidebar are examples for other additional services that are available for mobile phone owners.

But it *might* happen!

[mks113]

And you might get hit by an asteroid in bed, so they should mandate asteroid shields above every bedroom.

The chances of a cell phone generating enough energy to cause an igniting spark is astronomically small -- but just to be safe....

But it is probably higher than that of a microwave oven causing a pacemaker to go haywire.

I really find it strange that people will drive 140 km/h on a wet road sitting over 50 litres of highly flammable fuel, but are terrified of what *might* happen because they use their cell phone while filling their vehicle.

And gasoline would be banned or as highly regulated as explosives if it weren't so commonly used before people started worrying so much about safety.

Risk management people have stopped talking about "actual risk" and tend to focus on "perceived risk" now. There is a pretty wide spread between the two.

No problem...

[Anonymous Coward]

All phone companies has systems that enable the parent to put a cap on the phone-bill. Reach the cap, and your teenager can only use the cell phone to call 911.

Teens will soon learn to keep the usage within limits.

Calling cards for mobile phones have also been pretty popular (at least in Denmark).

Most danish (and european?) phone companies have traditional web payment systems that enables people to move money from their home-banking systems or credit card to the phone, or to recharge their calling card.

Lots of solutions have been devised for the problem that you point out.

/ H

= The end of Smart Cards

[G4from128k]

The rise of using cellphones as a personal data store, financial access, and micropayment scheme would seem to spell the death of smart cards. Why invest in all those card readers, when you can simply accept payments via the already ubiquitous cellphone network. Add a bit of encryption/passwords and a cellphone is just as secure (or insecure) as carrying a bunch of smartcards. Add built-in location/tracking features and you can find your lost cellphone (try that with a lost smartcard.)

Although the cellphone vs. smartcard battle is far from over (and you will never use your cellphone to pay at a payphone), its always interesting to watch how very different technologies converge on similar applications and supplant each other.

Re:= The end of Smart Cards

[Anonymous Coward]

" Although the cellphone vs. smartcard battle is far from over"

Since every cellphone contains a smartcard (the SIM).

Re:= The end of Smart Cards

[Anonymous Coward]

"Since every cellphone contains a smartcard (the SIM). "

Actually, not every cellphone contains the SIM. That's only for GSM, and CDMA phones don't come with SIM card.

In germany it was called Payback...

[Uzull]

I said "was called" because the system has been given up. It started in 2000. At its peak you could pay taxi/cabs, flights, petrol station, restaurants. The company didn't make enough money out of it, and closed the shop in 2002. The system was simple : The money receiver send a message with money amount and telephone nr of payer. The payer received a request for confirmation, replied to the message with id of the transaction. The money received the ack for the transaction. The whole transaction happened within 1 min.

gas stations do go BOOM! (as you say)

[johnpaul191]

i think the one issue is that when a car/pump/station go BOOM! there is a big mess to sift through.... there is that MythBusters show on Discovery or TLC and their investigations did not turn up a case of a cell phone actually causing a gas pump explosion, BUT there have been a non-trivial number of pumps blow up in the U.S. Their information implied that it *seems* it is due to people getting in and out of their cars, building up static electricity and then they discharge it when they remove the nozzle from the car (where the highly combustible fumes are).
That's why a lot of stations that are self serve remove those clips so you have to hold the pump on (and not wander off or sit in your car for 60 seconds), I think the cell phone thing is just a precaution. There have been a few cases reported here on Slashdot of Nokia phones exploding.... i don't see why that happening at the pump might not create the idea situation for an explosion.

I have seen people smoke at a gas pump, and as far as i know they gas station survived..... it really requires an idea situation to explode, but it's just not something worth screwing with IMHO. That being said, using a phone (like a speedpass) to connect to my account before i start the pump seems fine to me. I live in a city and all the pumps are pre-pay, so you would be beep beeping your cell phone before the nozzle is removed from the pump anyway.

Boston area cell payments

[ebischof]

There's a company called Mobilelime doing this in the Boston area. I've used it a couple of times and have to say it's pretty easy and seems secure. You have to enter a PIN to complete the transaction, then you get a receipt tm'd to your phone.
There aren't a lot of shops to use it at (although one IS a liquor store) right now, but if more people try it I'm sure it'll catch on.

Re:You laugh....

[botzi]

....but one day I got an SMS starting with,

Dear sir,
I'm queen Fadiha Larta, widow of King Anshi Sabouti from the....

Don't know about the rest, I stop reading about there as I was able to figure out where're we going.... ;oP

Let this technology spread...

[allotria]

...because my employer is paying my cell phone bills. :-)

Empty battery?

[cra]

Paying by phone is of course pretty convenient, but I really prefer methods of payment where I'm not dependant on a battery that I have to charge. I.e. by credit card. And also there are places where you can't get a carrier, although those places have to be looked for these days.

Re:Empty battery?

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a novel idea: keep a spare battery in your pocket.

Re:Empty battery?

[Hognoxious]

Here's a novel idea: keep a spare battery in your pocket.

But not the same one as your keys, in case they short it and cause a petrol station to explode.

in Thailand...

[Anonymous Coward]

...where the prime minister owns the largest cell phone service, the largest shopping center, the largest TV station, the largest ISP, etc. etc. we've been able to pay for things using our cell phones for ages, as long as they all belong to his groups of companies!

Re:in Thailand...

[Hognoxious]

No no no. You got it all wrong. It's not Thailand. It's SOVIET RUSSIA. And PROFIT!!!

Slashdot and popup adds

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe its just me, but I'm now getting popup adds here.

Yuk.

Got it

[DaneelGiskard]

There is a company called "paybox" over here (operating in Austria and many other european countries) which allows payment of stuff through your mobile phone. Many shops partecipate, you can even buy real life porn ;-) with it.

I personally don't use it, but it's been around for a few years already.

Good for invasions too!!!

[pantsmonkey]

So if you are driving your car in South Korea and you see a North Korean tank coming the other way, can you use the phone to wire all you savings off-shore before KIM Il-song takes it and spends it on American movies and Afro Sheen?

Re:merging cell carriers and credit card companies

[hey]

I agree -- if you are standing right in front of the vending machine why not touch it with some kid of plastic card. If you pay with cellphone the signal has to travel 10's of kilometers at least. What if the current cell is down? What if the vending machine's cell connection is down, etc.
Just stupid. Like telneting in to your Linux box from the console!

Now maybe its useful if you aren't touching the vending machine. Like Internet shopping but then there are Internet payment methods (credit card, paypal, etc).

Cellphone payments

[e-gold]

Have been possible since 1999 with e-gold, see http://mobile.e-gold.com for a demo. Not many customers actually use their phones as their primary interface, but it's possible, and e-gold doesn't discriminate against micropayments. I wish Slashdot would accept the currency, but so far no luck...
JMR

Cell phone payments

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't that mean one would have to carry around a bag full of cell phones?? Seems terribly unwieldy...

One doesn't get it...

Super 88 in Boston

[mattdm]

The Super 88 asian grocery near my house in Boston has signs at their food court about paying for your purchase by cell phone. Haven't tried it and dunno how it works, but looks like this idea has made it over here as well.

But I don't like mobile phones!

[Half-pint HAL]

I'm a European and I don't want a mobile phone. You can never be alone unless you switch it off, and if you do you feel guilty.

Keep the cards, ban the phone!

Since 2000 in Lithuania

[Anonymous Coward]

SMS payments for parking is "in production" since year 2000 in Lithuania. Just my 2p.

If you had bothered to read the article

[Anonymous Coward]

You would note that in Korea you can already buy tickets/play the lottery/transfer money etc etc.You can also watch TV on them, but I've never understood the point. It's crazy expensive, and the screens are big, but not really big enough to enjoy any sort of video (imo).
This is taking things to a different level. Like the idea of using it as a credit card (ie using it to make major purchases).

But this is slashdot, and really who reads the articles....

a good idea

[ametzger]

I think something like this is a good idea, but it has to be flawless. a system where anything you want can be paid for with one unit that you can also use to communicate with, that would make a lot of people's lives a lot easier. still, it must be excecuted perfectly, and then what about people having different models of cell phones? different services? it all goes back to the paradox of perfet execution.

Can't wait till it comes here

[thepacketmaster]

I'm getting a little tired of having a wallet 2 inches thick. But nowadays I think a lot of us are faced with that. Every company wants to have their own shiny little card, whether it is a credit card, debit card, rewards card, members card, or whatever.

Now of course, it is possible to "go commando" and only have a wallet with a limited number of cards. Maybe a debit card and two credit cards. (You need at least two credit cards in case you run into a place that doesn't take Visa, or doesn't take Mastercard.) But wait, you'll also need your driver's license. Don't forget your health card. Of course, if you happen to stop by Chapters to buy a book you probably want your membership card handy so you can get the discount...it goes on and on.

I wonder why this isn't already in North America? Could it be that the companies here are just as loathed as those anywhere else, about sharing data? Or is it because consumers haven't pushed for it because of some Big Brother fear?

I wouldn't immediately think it is the "Big Brother" issue, since all the different types of cards can allow you to be tracked anyways. But there still seems to be a reluctance to go that final step and put everything together.

I think the biggest reason is company vanity. Every company wants its logo separate and visible, even in your wallet.

Until then, I guess I just have to keep going to the chiropractor to adjust my back, due to my Costanza wallet

Cellphones at gas stations.

[blanks]

There have been accidents with cellphones causing explosions, plus it interferes with the intercom's they used when communicating with people who do not know how to use a gas pump.

Ever been in a gas station and wonder why they are piping in very loud an annoying humming sounds? Is some asshat on his cellphone.

Starbucks. One step ahead.

[blanks]

Starbucks has been workign on this for years.

Heres a partical quote from the page.

[April 3, 2002]
"Starbucks Express
Starbucks just reported results of its trial wireless pre-order process for improving service. (One thing most consumers like less than paying high prices for a double tall latte is waiting in a very long line to order one.)

With this trial program, consumers are able to order coffee and baked goods wirelessly and pick up the order at a special counter about four minutes later. The order is automatically charged to a credit card. This new service, "Starbucks Express" should cut down on customer wait times, at least in theory, and begin to build a mobile commerce channel for the Seattle-based retailer. Consumers are even able to pre-program their phones and then just press one digit to order their beverage of choice and a cranberry scone to go with it. "

Re:Not boom, hopefully. Maybe hack, though.

[ShinmaWa]

Cell phones tend to build up a static charge due to their emission of electromagnetic waves, which, in some cases, can cause a spark. [...] It's a legitimate concern.

Ummmmm.... bull.

Go IOL!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the first time I see a South African site (iol.co.za in this case) referenced on /. No wonder it fell over, the international bandwidth to SA is horrible (Anyone in Telkom SA reading this?)

Major drawback

[SuperKendall]

...pay for everything from groceries to petrol by cellphone.

Personally I am opposed to these barter systems, I can't imagine how it is more convienient paying for everything via bulky cellphone rather than flat paper money. And how does change work, what do I get back when something costs 1.8 Samsungs and I have a Nokia and a Treo? No sir, I'll stick with paper or plastic wafers.

same in belgium

[Anonymous Coward]

Using SMS for micropayments for online services is common in Belgium, e.g. newspaper or dating

P-E-T-R-O-L

[mgkimsal2]

That sure is a funny way to spell water.

Here Here!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Completely agree! I was beginning to think I was the only one who didn't like the ball-and-chain that links you to the rest of the world at all times. Sometimes, I just don't want to be contacted. Sometimes I want the rest of the world to GO AWAY. Almost everyone I know has one of those infernal things, and keep telling me I should get one. They don't understand my objections.

Re:Here Here!!

[PierceLabs]

I still don't understand your objection. If you don't want to be reached - turn it off or don't take it with you (leave it in the car). However if people do need to reach you in an emergency they are a voice mail or SMS message away from getting access to you when you DO turn it on.

Re:merging cell carriers and credit card companies

[*weasel]

plastic card functionality: proven, existant, immune to remote theft.

cell phone purchasing: unproven, nonexistant, susceptible to remote theft.

what's the benefit of buying a coke from a foot away if you have to touch the machine anyway to grab the can?

and telneting is a terribly inappropriate analogy.
telnet makes sense because monitors occupy space, are expensive, and you can do remote work with such a connection.

do i ever need to do remote work on a vending machine or at a grocery store? do i need to touch only my cell phone to specify flavor and prepay for a soda from 50' away?

do i need to trust yet another vendor with holding my credit card information in yet another database that is all too often hacked, just for this magical wireless payment privilege?

do i need to trust yet another monopolistic closed-source provider to create a secure wireless communication method - which may not even be standard? these are convicted monopolists, keep that in mind. lets not pretend that they never hurt innovation, competition or consumer interests. just look at the competitionin the credit card arena. or how about in the cell networks. heck just look at the rate of innovation in US cell networks vs the world.

are these the corporate titans you want to bind even tighter together? so they squeeze out potential newcomers by disallowing them yet-another-proprietary feature?

sure, in the case of credit cards, burden of proof lies on the bank in the event of theft. of course, some of us don't like to pay for everything with a CC (bad habit) and prefer debit cards. where i either have to punch in a pin code (or store another number in a weak database) or use it as a CC transaction and assume the burden of proof in the event of theft (and suffer the inconvenience of not having my money in my checking account until the bank gets around to giving it back).

i don't see one reasonable application of why i should prefer to pay by waving my phone at something, rather than by swiping a piece of plastic. let alone see how such an application's benefits outweigh the above drawbacks.

Cell payments already across Africa

[Worldshift]

The most advanced cell phone payment system has been developed by a South African company called Fundamo (www.fundamo.com) that has been around for over four years now, backed by two of the biggest VC funds in South Africa. The system is running in six countries across sub-Saharan Africa, and will be rolled out in another six countries next year. It allows people to instantly transfer any amount of money from one cellphone to another, to top up airtime, buy prepaid electricity tokens, pay bills, and move money between different accounts. The user is also issued with a debit card linked to the same account which can be used for tillpoint purchases and to withdraw or deposit money into the account via ATMs. The Fundamo system has its own complete banking back end system, and boasts lower transaction costs than any other method of transacting. The system is ideally suited for developing countries which often do not have a strong physical infrastructure to support payments, and whose citizens are vulnerable if carrying large amounts of cash. Mobile operators and banks license the architecture and software from Fundamo to run their own payment gateways, which interoperate.

nobody can beat Belgium

[bramez]

some time ago I visited a belgian archeological site that was probably 2500 years old. The guide told us that no telephone cables where found during the dig-up. why? Because the old belgians had MOBILE that's why!!

In the mean time...

[shri]

Some of us in Hong Kong are paying for our groceries, transportation and a lot more with our Octopus cards

Cellphone Payments == $$$$

[Twintop]

Do I accept cellphone payments? Hell no! $15 for a 40 minute call is absurd!

...errr, wait. Different kind of cellphone payments. My bad.

premium rate text

[Anonymous Coward]

Here in the UK a lot of companies are starting to take small payments by means of preimum rate text messages. These can cost about 5 times what a normal text does. Its main use seems to be for tv and radio stations to generate revenue on people sending in comments or song requests. I know quite a few other coutries have similar systems. I've also seen a few web sites which require you to send in a preimum rate text to gain access. Only problem is people from other countries might not be able to access.

Re:Not boom, hopefully. Maybe hack, though.

[ajensen]

From your linked article:

Cellular phone manufacturers Nokia and Ericsson have said that the risk is very small that something will happen, but since there is a risk, it should be counted.

If the manufacturers of the devices in question are saying that there is a risk, we ought to take it seriously. When lives are potentially at stake, the probability of the said occurrence shouldn't matter.

-a

What's the security like?

[Animats]

The cellphone people have a chance to do this right.

"Right" is like this: Seller generates a transaction, sends it to the phone, buyer's phone displays the transaction, customer approves, phone signs the transaction and sends it to the seller. Seller sends transaction to bank. Bank validates transaction and replies to seller. Optionally, bank sends transaction to buyer's computer elsewhere (typically corporate purchases).

Seller can only deposit that transaction; they can't create new ones or change the amount.

Did they do it right?

been there, done that, yawn

[Mr. Slurpee]

saw this exact thing in finland, three years ago, and who knows how long they'd been doing it.

movie tickets to get put on-call, coffee and a croissant (or ruisbread?), there are places where you have a series of SMS numbers and short code messages to send to them, then your phone just gets billed (terribly, terribly secure, i know). f'rinstance, the cafe at the bus station in helsinki has a secondary menu with popular items and their codes. if the line is too long you can order through there while you chunk away at one of their computers and then listen as tika-tika-tika your order comes out of a small credit card-looking machine on the counter. heck, you could even order a few minutes before you got there; this comes in handy, too, when your country is dark and under snow for several months out of the year. i'm surprised it took a tech-savvy place like korea this long to make it noteworthy.

Golgafrincham

[Barkmullz]

said Daisuke Okabe, a mobile phone culture specialist at Yokohama National University in Japan

Where is a Golgafrincham Space Ark when you need one?

Petrol Stations and Cellphones...

[meowsqueak]

...can be a dangerous mix :

Mobiles a fuel pump risk!

DRIVERS have been warned to switch off their mobile phones at petrol stations because of the danger of them sparking fires. The alert follows three incidents where phones have ignited petrol fumes after motorists answered calls while filling their vehicles. One person was left with burns to the face and another received groin injuries. The NHS health chief called for warning signs at the entrances of petrol stations, adding: 'I urge people to remember to switch off phones and keep them off until they leave.'

Paying for parking in Australia

[noelo]

In November a method of paying for parking with mobile phones will be enabled. It supports all the phone networks and both prepaid and postpaid accounts.

SEMOPS - an EU Mobile Payment Service

[Anonymous Coward]

They have a project on future mobile payment services, not only vending but account (bank, mobile network operator prepaid/postpaid, credit card) based.

http://www.semops.com

Re:Not boom, hopefully. Maybe hack, though.

[ShinmaWa]

Again.. I call bull to what you said: Cell phones tend to build up a static charge due to their emission of electromagnetic waves, which, in some cases, can cause a spark.

You say that statement as if it has been proven and a known fact... even though no one has been able to demonstrate it. If you can show me one place -- any place -- where someone has been able to "cause a spark", I'll back down.

I also don't trust Nokia and Ericsson's "risk assessment". They are tempered by lawyers who would claim that the sky might fall on your head if they thought they could possibly be sued for it.

Re:Not boom, hopefully. Maybe hack, though.

[ajensen]

If you can show me one place -- any place -- where someone has been able to "cause a spark" [...]

There is an article on Excite here, which was covered on Slashdot here, that tells of a woman whose cell phone burst into flames. No matter the cause, there's your spark -- and much more. I do realize that she dropped the phone and this likely caused the problem, but this could just as easily have happened while she was standing at the pump.

But regardless of that, cell phones build up static energy much like people do -- any wireless internet/radio enthusiast will tell you that. This is what causes lightning to strike antennas more frequently than most other objects. Most people have also found out that static electricity from simply moving around can cause a spark.

All I'm saying is that the possibility exists for such a "spark" to take place given the right conditions (i.e., "in some cases"). Physics tells us such, and that's enough evidence for me to appreciate the concern.

I'm done. Take care.

-a

You are all wrong, this is not SMS

[Anonymous Coward]

SMS is all stuff, sure,, and you are all wrong if you thought this was about SMS or dialing with your mobile phone in order to pay for parking or vending machines.

in that article, it says..

"Instead of handing over credit or debit cards that get swiped, users type their passcode on the phone keypad, point the device at a special receiver on a checkout counter and press a key. It's as simple as operating a TV remote."

you don't dial with your mobile, your cell phone will read and send signal just like a bar code reader.
And that's what it's happening in korea as a trendsetter.

Payment is handy

[Kris_J]

I have a bunch of autopayment options setup. My mobile bill is applied to my credit card a week or so after I get the bill. My credit card balance is automatically debited from my bank acound a few weeks after I get that bill. Being able to bung charges onto my phone bill is actually very handy. Also, since there's a bonus consolidation time, it can be months before I actually pay for anything and it's all interest free :)

(Mind you, it is a bit of a worry that my life would run quite well without me, so long as work keep paying me. I think there was something like this in the "Things My Girlfriend and I Have Argued About" novel...)

Not a major city, but..

[spitefulcrow]

Westchester County, NY (roughly 1 hour away from downtown Manhattan) has some of the crappiest coverage from T-Mobile. Dead spots on the larger highways through my area and a somewhat unresponsive network.

we already have it.

[john_uy]

in our country, philippines, one carrier already has implemented a similar system. it's called smart money (http://www.smart.com.ph/)

it allows you to create an account (with mastercard) and the credit is the actual amount loaded into it. you can then use your mobile phone to pay goods in establishments that are their partners. it also allows you to pay for someone's purchase as well.

kinda neat but i prefer a credit card for now (since I not give the money first before spending.)

Sitt Ifrikeh

[Anonymous Coward]

I dint inderstind. Thi iriginial artikil is in e .za domeen, bet it writs
"Seoul, South Korea - Kim Won-jung walked up to a vending machine and bought an orange drink. But rather than insert coins, she paid with the press of a cellphone button."

Instid of:
"Seel, Sit Kiriiah. Kim Wo jing wikked ip teh a vindin machin en bott en orinj drenk. Bit rither thin insit cinns, sje pidd fer eet wid e priss iv e sillfon bitten'

Ave coss, thae ole bliddy cintry as gin ter pot sinsje thi keffahs ave bin rinning eet.

Re:Not boom, hopefully. Maybe hack, though.

[Hognoxious]

covered on Slashdot here, that tells of a woman whose cell phone burst into flames.

If you bothered to read the story you linked to, you would see that it was attributed to the batteries.
OTOH, even if you didn't, but you knew anything about chemistry (the activation energy for the combustion of plastics) and physics (the charge necessary to achieve the former, and how, given the capacitance of a mobile phone, it would reach a voltage such that it would exceed the breakdown potential of air, and hence discharge itself before it got anywhere near that stage) you would know that you're talking bullshit.

This is what causes lightning to strike antennas more frequently than most other objects.

Pure and unadulterated twaddle. Antennae get struck by lightning because they are made of conductive materials and stick up into the sky.

Re:merging cell carriers and credit card companies

[Hognoxious]

yeah... could we get a few more convicted monopolists into this system? perhaps Microsoft could build the proprietary network interface to handle all this secure data transfer and storage via passport or something...

I for one welcome Microsoft's involvement in the phone system.
It will surely rid the GSM networks of pediophiliacs and other kinds of kiddifiddlerists, just like they did with chatmails and webrooms and interboardbulletins, and, er, like stuff. And Harry Potter should be banned, obviously.

Re:Not boom, hopefully. Maybe hack, though.

[ajensen]

If you bothered to read the story you linked to, you would see that it was attributed to the batteries.

I did read the article. You'll notice that I said, "I do realize that she dropped the phone and this likely caused the problem," which I learned from the article -- regardless of that, though, the chemistry and physics aspects are really unrelated to what was being discussed. The grandparent was asking for an example of a spark, which was then provided. I was arguing no other point.

Antennae get struck by lightning because they are made of conductive materials and stick up into the sky.

And also because they build up a charge, which in turn increases (albeit slightly) the likelyhood of a lightning strike. After all, charges are what lightning is all about. It's obvious that you're well-versed in the sciences, so I don't think I need to say more about that.

F.Y.I.: antennae commonly refers to the pair of apendages that are attached to a head for sensory purposes. Antennas are strictly defined to be metallic objects that transmits EM waves. I'll stick with the latter.

-a