Slashdot Mirror
Developers Lose With Proprietary Software
An anonymous reader writes "Appgen looked like a nice cross-platform accounting program independent software developers could use as a base for custom applications, and lots of them paid $2000 or more for the company's development kits. Then Appgen went out of business and left all those developers stranded. They can't even generate license keys, and their support has disappeared. Nobody knows who now owns Appgen's code, so it looks like all those developers and their clients are screwed. This couldn't happen if Appgen was Open Source. There's a strong lesson in this story for those who choose to listen." Newsforge and Slashdot are both part of OSDN.
Don't be a Sharecropper.
Save your wrists today - switch to Dvorak
buy Microsoft then - there's no way they are going to go out of business like that!
sPh
We gave our source to our paying customers when we decided to drop the product and switch directions.
Everyone seemed pleased with the arrangement, even though I doubt they were pleased when they got the gazillion lines of C++ code without support.
And to think my idea of going open source was ridiculed by management 6 months before we flamed out.
Sheesh...
Users lose with proprietary software.
Thanks in advance,
Kilgore Trout
George H. W. Bush - Not much
George W. Bush - Even less!
The place where I work used a proprietary closed source library for Borland C++ Builder. The project was developed 5 years ago and the library was purchased from some vendor whose name I forgot.
When faced with updates to the version 2.0, we found out the vendor went bankrupt. Luckily, they open-sourced the libraries and just put them up on SourceForge. I didn't really use their source code, just was thankful the libraries were there andfit the project under Borland C++.
Developers in this situation should examine this type of arrangement:
u rc e+code+escrow
http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?so
Looks to me like this sorta thing will crush small developers and move everyone to closed source outfits that'll never close their doors (M$ & the like). We're all sheep being herded by the mighty corporations.
Yes, slashdot and newsforge would love to see proprietary software go away because then it'll help their bottom line if people go with their open-source solutions.
Nice to see slashdot shilling reach a new low.
they would have been out of business much quicker
This is a ripe story for a weblog which covers .net more than any other framework. Funny how no-one ever questions whether the .net we've been getting told to learn or face certain doom might be canned and never heard from again by its owner.
From the wah-wah-wah-waaaaaaaaaaah dept.
I'm always amazed at michaels total lack of professionalism. Save your opinions for the comments section, that's what its for.
For those looking for insight on this might look here:
http://www.aaxnet.com/product/appgn.html
--------------
10-Oct-03 - the Appgen company has closed - the Appgen product is expected to continue. There are groups currently working on acquiring rights to license the product and this issue should be resolved soon. Nothing is yet resolved about terms, pricing or VAR support.
18-Oct-03 - people are still working to put together a deal, but the process has apparently been stalled a bit by the volume of badmouthing and threats (legal and physical) against those who were involved with the Appgen company. Cooperation would seem to be a much better tactic right now.
You may contact me by email at aax@aaxnet.com and I will keep you updated on whatever I learn about this matter.- or just watch this space
For people with licensing problems with Mybooks purchased directly from Appgen, this temporary solution has been proposed by an Appgen VAR.
continued...
Sucks to be them.
There's a growing sense that even if The Future comes,
most of us won't be able to afford it.
-- Lemmy
If it was open source and GPLed then you wouldn't be able to use the code in your own commercial product. If it was open source and have a berkeley license, then yes, that would be great.
There's a strong lesson in this story for those who choose to listen.
What.. to only buy software from Microsoft?
#1 - serious question - how many serious accounting packages are being worked on in the open-source world? It's exactly the kind of software hackers usually denigrate...
:)
#2 - I think this is as much about poor planning (contract negotiations on the part of the developers, defining and/or selling and/or making a "will" for the software on the part of the owners) as it is about IP. And I'll bet somebody knows who owns it, they just haven't settled it yet.
#3 - How many abandoned Open Source apps are there? I mean, sure, you won't have the key problem, but still. The grass may be greener, but it isn't self-mowing, self-watering, and immortal!
Obligatory Criticism from Merovign.
If they couldn't stay in business selling their code how would they expect to stay in business giving it away for free?
Of course, I have no idea if it will be honoured :-)
dominionrd.blogspot.com - Restaurants on
So michael acts like a moron, and you have no problems with it.
Someone complains about michael, and you think he's a moron, so you jump all over him with your limited vocabulary.
Idiot.
The same thing can happen with any non-open pieces of software... and even to some extent open-source ones. If the company providing support to your software goes down, then you eventually have little choice but to replace it in many cases.
If you had an accounting package with a Y2K error and you package provider wasn't around anymore to provide the 2000 release you were pretty much hosed then, developer or no. The plus side to open-source is that if you do have developers, and they can read the code (and compile it, for that matter), then you stand at least some chance of getting it to work again. But be that as it may, it's still sometimes better to replace it in a future point, otherwise you lose tech time to developing that product.
I was pretty sure I agreed with him until I tried iTunes last week. Now, I'm not so sure that a Web browser is really the right platform for every application.
The solution is simple. Any intelligent company entering into a software license agreement should make sure that they have a source code escrow agreement in case the vendor goes belly up.
This practice is becoming very standard nowadays and completely fixes this problem.
Developers in this situation should examine this type of arrangement:
This post cannot be re-broadcast without the express written consent of Major League Baseball.
1. Modify an open source software package to fit a niche market
2. Sell installations, manuals, customization service, and support to that market
3. Profit!
Unfortunately I haven't seen many Open Source businesses manage to achieve point 3.
I'm sure everyone can mention a few that have done so (Redhat and Cygwin spring to mind) but there are vastly more that have either fallen by the wayside or are resorting to begging for money (Mandrake?).
Open Source is great, but it too isn't perfect ...
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
Where you hire a lawyer. Seriously. Someone has the source, and the VAR's have been ripped off. This is when you go hire a lawyer and sue the guys. You're not out for big bucks (you might be), but you want the stuff they were supposed to give you. You need someone to check the bankrupcy filings, and you also need someone that these people CAN'T blow off. Alone, they will ignore you. With a lawyer, things suddenly get serious.
1. Go to Google.com
2. Search for "Appgen Crack"
3. ????
4. Profit!
As for the source code, you're SOL.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
There seems to be a working Appgen web site here, although the for-pay downloads aren't working.
This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
Er.... the Java programming language is a specification, and an open one at that (IIRC). If Sun went under, IBM still has a kick-ass VM and SDK. And a great IDE in Eclipse, too. If Sun went under, Java would continue unabated; it's a programming language, not a library or modifiable application.
From the article it seems to me that Appgen (which I'm not familiar with) is either an IDE/Library/ProprietaryLanguage, or a full-blown application that developers can modify for their own use. It's a far cry from Java.
"Times have not become more violent. They have just become more televised."
-Marilyn Manson
actually, i think the "wah-wah-wah-waaaaaaaaaaah" in the title is the sound of you crying about it.
It probably would cause a shake up but with java there are several eggs in different baskets. What would perl do without Larry Wall? They would get over it and move on. Besides Sun is more likely to be an aquisition target than it is to flame out.
In Republican America phones tap you.
There are open-source java implementations, and while sun COULD go change java drastically and break backwards-compatibility, it's not going to happen. There are also enough people who have copies of the Java library source (It ships with every JDK, I think) that if Sun went under, people would still be able to use Java.
Isn't copyright an agreement between a person and the public where the public grants the person temporary full control over distribution in return for having said copyrighted information given to the public after a set amount of time? Where is the public's compensation if the company folds early?
It's called bad business practices and a risk everyone takes whenever they buy anything and do not research what they are buying and who they are buying it from.
The real tip-off in the article is the fact they did the same thing with a previous program...I can't feel too much sympathy with individuals or companies doing business with a company but not doing a through check of who they are doing business with.
Look, Appgen's code is obviously valuable. It is most certain that a probable owner of the code is going go through the process of claiming ownership. People are banging down the doors of the developers to AGE-OLD games just to make a simple port of them. Appgen's software isn't going to just sit there and screw former customers doggystyle just because it's new owners haven't claimed it yet.
Companies fail from time to time. It happens.
BUT, now that the company isn't operating any more, they can't issue keys to reinstall the software that they legitimately purchased.
That's why I refuse to buy software with product activation - you're SOL if the company won't (or isn't able to) give you a new key.
"This couldn't happen if Appgen was Open Source."
:-)
Obviously if there were an open source (read: FREE) alternative, these independent developers wouldn't have shelled-out the 2000 clams.
So, I assume that the guy who submitted this, and all of you in agreement w/ him, are going to start writing an accounting package right away. Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness, right?!
"Learning is fun!" - Bender, Futurama. If you know this quote, you know that these people just learned an important lesson.
"Code Escrow"
If I am going to purchase components or make a decision to commit, I make sure that there is some sort of safety-net just in case the company fails. Often this comes in the form of a code escrow service. Every X days, the company ships off a copy of all their code to the service. If the company fails or there is a serious event, the escrow company releases the code.
As a small developer that is a large expense, so for my customers, they already have the contact info for my off-site backup person. If anything happens to me, that person is instructed to freely distribute all source code. It is someone I trust.
Or you could use your attorney.
Off-site backups are a Good Thing(TM), and it only takes one extra small step to ensure that, should you perish, your work isn't left inaccessible. Whether that means a closed-source app or just your notes on an open source project.
Natural != (nontoxic || beneficial)
>Let's start with a closed source business model:
>
>1. Invest time and money to become a software VAR
>2. Software publisher goes broke.
>3. Big loss, no profit!
How about:
1. Write your own damn software, don't rely on proprietary junk that you have to pay for.
2. Publish it your own damn self.
3. Profit.
"Times have not become more violent. They have just become more televised."
-Marilyn Manson
Buy Microsoft products.
You'll be out of the commercial software business long before they are.
If it was open source and GPLed then you wouldn't be able to use the code in your own commercial product.
Isn't this the problem that the LGPL is designed to solve?
#1 - serious question - how many serious accounting packages are being worked on in the open-source world? It's exactly the kind of software hackers usually denigrate...
In my analysis, it isn't that open-source developers don't want to work on this sort of thing, it's that there is a certain amount of infrastructure that needs to be in place before projects like this can proceed. Several enterprise-class accounting projects have been started, but few finish; it's because the tools aren't in place yet.
The FOSS community doesn't avoid doing corporate-type projects, as a lot of people claim. FOSS software is written because it is positioned properly to fullfill a need. Until very recently, FOSS was not accepted in the enterprise. Now, as more and more corporations are depending on various FOSS software, you will see many projects targetting medium-to-large corporations.
For instance, look at the relatively-new GNU Enterprise project. This is a major undertaking which has begun by creating the tools required to build an enterprise management infrastructure.
As FOSS software penetrates various markets, you will see many FOSS projects building finance/hr/materials-management/analysis tools. I predict that 2004 will be the year of the enterprise for FOSS (Linux,*BSD,GNU). You'll see prepackaged medical management software, ERP software, etc. By the end of 2005 I believe you will see a complete enterprise management system, from supply chain to finance to HR to payroll.
But maybe I'm just a pollyanna.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Not only will reinstalling a computer takes AGES due to all the products you need to activate (and heaven forbid you changed some hardware - time to call them all up one-by-one and plead your case), but you won't even be able to install any package from a software company who has gone belly up.
I for one thought it was supposed to be the trademark sound of alarm from Kyle's mom on South Park... more of a "what what WHAAAAAT?" though.
When companies sell closed source solutions that other companies build on top of and come to be dependent on it's true there's big risks. The solution that seems to be suggested here is to build on open source projects. The problem: good luck finding a good, well documented, open source accounting system. Another solution is code escrow. Before you buy into a system like that make sure the vendor puts the source somewhere where the customers can get it if they fold and grants them the right to do so. There's several companies that provide services like this and if software consumers start insisting on it we can see problems like this become less frequent in the future. Even for closed source projects.
Did any of you see what happened when their third quarter earnings came out? Off 34% in one freakin day! Holy Macaroni.
Imagine if Macromedia died and didn't give up their source code leaving all those Flash, Dreamweaver, Director, Authorware apps hanging. That's a big huge piece of the software market and look at the gyrations in price. It's scarry.
Sure, in most cases it would be irrelevant because it's all out there, but what about people still maintaining their products and say they lose their licensed media. What are they going to do when the company is gone. It's hard to imagine, but jeez 34% in one day. That's hard to imagine too.
Meet gcj, smart guy.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
The same situation exists with Microsoft's FoxPro, a database programming language like the old dBase. Microsoft has been giving FoxPro lukewarm development support. At one time there were 1,500,000 FoxPro programmers. Now they are imprisoned in an uncomfortable relationship.
Many vendors offer the source code be placed in escrow in case of such an event. However this is only something you'll get for large, enterprise software products, not some utility or tool.
ugh.. as nice as it would be to say proprietary software is bad, these are the results. That just is not the case.
/. analogy, when I buy a ford car, I have no guarantee that I'll be supported after ford goes out of business.
Proprietary software failed in this case because the people using it (stupidly) paid a lot of money for software that had no contingency plan or guarantee.
To use a popular
When you pay a lot of money for something with no service guarantee of any kind, stuff like this happens. Sure using OSS may have helped with this problem, but OSS has a whole slew of other problems.
If its merely a license key issue, I'm sure these "developers" could get around that. Judging by the number of keygen programs for other software packages that come out the same day a program is released, this is a non-issue.
Java is WIDE OPEN when it comes to availibility of source code. Sun could go belly-up tomorrow, and we'd still have access. In fact the OPEN SOURCE implimentations of Java -- which you do not seem to know about -- would simply fill that void.
Java is a spec not just a library.
What Sun DOES control is the DIRECTION of Java... what extensions become part of the runtime and part of the language (they are not both the same object, BTW)
While not truly open sourced, Java does not fit the definition of closed-source either.
What you post highlights is, you do not understand the difference between control of API direction, and availability of the source code. It's OK to speak before you think... you are on Slashdot after all.
Yes, the lesson is: don't buy a propriatary app without a 3rd party source-code escrow agreement. That was figured out around 1965.
So, you have a contract that specifies software escrow. And when the company goes bankrupt and you find the source is not in escrow (or not all of the source is in escrow, or there is third-party IP in the escrowed source, or ...):
who are you going to sue?
An escrow agreement is likely to be enforceable right up until the moment you need it.
The difference with open source is that you have the source in hand now and so if the company disappears you don't have to sue a non-existant entity to get the code.
Sun can't change the licensing for Java (smart guy)?
Moron, all it takes is Sun to fail and MS to pick them up for peanuts, change the licensing and voila, you're fucked (smart guy).
The Java VM specifications are relatively open and available. There are several well-known VMs, at least one of which is opensource, and many other VM implementations. Many of these come with bytecode compilers, as does GCC.
So, how exactly is it hypocrisy?
(still doesnt excuse Java's monstrous runtime resource needs though.)
I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
Err, I hope you're right, for Mono's sake. If Microsoft decides that enough's enough -- probably at the exact point in time that Microsoft has decided Mono has done enough to promote .Net technologies to the world, thank you -- and they decide to sue for patent infringement or whatever, well, then a court would get to decide what could happen with an open source project.
Could the exact same scenario happen with an open source project? Well, no. There seem to be particulars in this case that don't translate cleanly to an open source situation. But didn't Richard Stallman have to restart Emacs back in the day because of licensing and contributor issues? If you're not aware, Mr. Stallman is just a wee bit sensitive about these things now.
I think you'd be better of saying that this could never happen if the project were open source, IF: all contributors have responsibly contributed code, everyone involved honors the moral and legal principles of open source development, the project is popular and involvement is well documented, there's a well maintained, redundant code repository ... In other words, all the ducks are in order. In the above case, clearly they were not. But while I would agree that open source projects are less susceptible to this kind of problem, I'd be careful stating that they're immune ...
Chr0m0Dr0m!C
I don't think that's a good comparison. To be fair, I haven't been in coding for a while now, but I do understand a few things.
For one, the APIs for Java are wide open and documented. If something's not working, it's fairly obvious to find it and figure out why or why not. Also, various packages for Java are open sourced and not controlled by Sun. The major applications, as well, are developed open source, or at the very least not controlled by Sun.
Here what we have is an application which is not well-documented, the internals of which are nowhere near open, and the whole of which belongs to one source.
The people who used this got the very short end of the stick, whereas people developing with Java have a large community of both developers and users outside of Sun to aid in furthering Java development.
Emacs: for people who just never know when to
One reportedly paid $10,000 to have Appgen ported to "SCO and UnixWare" in September, only weeks before the company went away.
And now, Appgen dissapeared too!
Thanks for pointing out that the OSS generation is not the first to prepare for the life cycle of a company.
Personally, I think the best way to design a programming company is to come out of the gate as a proprietary technology, then to have an end game where the technology turns into open source as the technology matures. The paradigm where things start and end free just means developers never get paid.
This happened with my sequencer, Studio Vision Pro. The company, Opcode, was acquired by Gibson. I wanted to move my installation from my ancient powerbook to my G4, and found that Gibson was no longer supporting the product, and didn't leave a way for me to satisfy my key auth requirement (need a specific USB floppy drive to do it, if I am to do it at all!)
The lesson is that if there is one thing open-source is not good at, it's developing highly complex specialized applications for limited markets. Appgen *could not have existed* as open-source, because geeks do not get their rocks off writing specialized accounting framework software, it's as simple as that. So you either pay the $2000, or you use the nearest open-source equivalent, which would probably be graphical abacus software written in ncurses or something, on which development has been stalled for the past 18 months. Or maybe Gnucash, if you can afford to hire enough CS majors to get it compiled.
And the lesson for GNU weenies is: You're only allowed to complain if you have software that can do what Appgen does *as good or better than Appgen*. And you don't, so stfu.
...and commercial software doesn't bankrupt businesses. The problem here is the unethical behavior of the Appgen principals. To excoriate closed source software because of this is ridiculous. Yes, had the code been open this would have been prevented but that argument makes no sense. Because there is no open source alternative today I submit that the code could only exist in closed source...clearly there is neither a need nor advantage to having this product be open source (or it would already exist that way). Opening the source now would benefit those who paid money for the dev kit but that would be taking the work of others and giving it away without regards to the authors' rights.
Visual Voice was a great set of APIs for talking to Dialogic telephoney boards. Thier competitor with a inferior product (Parity Software) bought them out, then discountinued the product. The offered "discounts" to "upgrade" to thier product. But it wasn't worth it.
4 years later it's starting to show signs of wear as it doesn't play well with Windows 2000 or XP. Now I have to convert or die.
As far as I know there is nothing in the open source world that would have meet the needs of the developers in this case. So are you all suggesting that they should have done nothing?
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
The whole point of escrow is that the source is already in the possession of the escrow trustee, which would not likely be a firm that would just vanish overnight.
--Slashdot: News for Turds. Stuff that Splatters.
This is FUD if people are arguing this is an Open Source / Closed Source issue.
Everyone has the source to Java. Well enough other people that it wouldn't matter if Sun went away. IBM has their own Java VM and Compiler (The rules for looking at Sun's code inside IBM are very strict.) The Blackdown people are allowed to compile it for Linux although I don't know the details of their source code license.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Auto firms build engine components to open, published standards. Because of this, there are many aftermarket parts companies making parts for most cars.
Car components that are developed to open specs are not licensed to a particular car, so you are free to salvage parts from wrecked or otherwise inoperable vehicles.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
The true cause of this problem is copy protection, not proprietary software vs. Open Source. If this product didn't use keygen based protection, you'd be able to use it in perpetuity, even if it was closed source. So bitch about copy protection, but if you gripe about closed source you just look like an idiot for griping about an irrelevant problem.
you're SOL if the company won't (or isn't able to) give you a new key.
Mmm... not really. Desperate times call for desperate measures. (Warning: might not be a work-safe link)
But this has already been covered once WRT Java, which is precisely the same thing. Java and .NET are both open specifications. There are a couple replacements for each (Java: IBM JDK, gcj; .NET: Mono, DotGnu) so if one of them should drop off the face of the earth there is a free and open source replacement.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Why not just switch to Python? It's an awesome language.
Don't forget that GNUcash and SQL Ledger already exist and are both GPL'd.
Expert in software patents or patent law? Contribute to the ESP wiki!
Lol, I'd be willing to bet if Sun went under there would be some major difficulties in the industry.
How much money are you willing to lose on that bet?
There are plenty of free or open source and third party sources for Java compilers, JVMs, bytecode compilers, class libraries and related apps.
Sun could disappear tomorrow and Java would continue.
-- Alastair
Good, now you can waste your time somewhere else! Michael's controversial, always has been. If you don't like it, don't read his posts.
For the small developer, what's the lowest cost solution for legally verifiable code escrow? (That my brother has a copy of my backups isn't likely to be an acceptable answer... unless my brother is a major banks trusts & estates officer, and the code is held in a legal trust by the bank (== $$$ big legal fee's)).
The Exception
Which is not to say that the browser is the right answer for everything. Here's an overgeneralization which I think works. Computer applications, excluding games, fall into one of three baskets: information retrieval, database interaction, and content creation. History shows that the Web browser, or something like it, is the right way to do the first two. Which leaves content creation.
Open vs. Closed souce isn't the issue. Yes open source avoids this type of problem, but it could have been avoided by a half decently run company. Appgen left its paying customers out in the cold when it went out of bussiness. They could have opened the source code or provided the key generator or whatever they need to do to provide thier customers with what they bought/contracted for. Appgen couldn't have disappeared overnight even quickly failing companies take months and months to go away and they can ussually unload thier products to competitors at pennies on the dollar or help customers in someway. Appgen acted irresponsibly if they stranded thier customers, open source might have helped but comericial products are difficult to allow open source but at the end of the day Appgen failed it customers!!!!
Open Source isn't the only way to have solved this problem. A simple thing called a source code escrow would have solved this problem. If this had existed, with the term that if company goes out of business or is otherwise unable or unwilling to fullfill it contractual obligations or have them fullfilled by a successor within 30 days, the escrow is broken, everything would have been fine.
Of course, if you are a carpenter, ever tool is hammer and the world is filled with nails; and if you are an Open Source zealot, then all problems can be solved by Open Source.
Don't get me wrong. I like Open Source in many situations. But it isn't the solution to each an every problem on the planet.
Yours,
Jordan Dea-Mattson
They will have to support your car for as long as it stays under warranty. Like 6 years 100000 miles or whatever. Otherwise they'll get sued.
I feel sorry for all the people that payed for Appgen. I feel even more sorry for anyone that had to work with it. I only know of it because I had a contract working on Appgen maintenance programming once a couple of years back. Fortunately, the company I was working for supplied all the manuals and software.
Nathan's blog
Heh. Has anyone tried a google search on appgen serialz?
I am sure there are those in the mega-corp world would see this as an example why you need to use Microsoft,Oracle, etc. because going with a smaller startup company could leave you stranded. Just a thought.
geeze people. Its a freakin slashdot post, not an amendment to the U.S. constitution. Get a life and something real to worry about.
A "written escrow agreement" is meaningless unless there is actually a third-party escrow trustee involved from the beginning. This is what escrowing is. (See http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=escrow)
The VARs and SIs should have known better.
--Slashdot: News for Turds. Stuff that Splatters.
The company that is essentially not in business anymore? I see this as Appgen is not holding up their end of the bargain and people are having to do what they need to to survive.
I do not advocate piracy - these people have already paid to use this software. They are effectively *fixing* the situation. Now, if they continue on developing more appgen apps with cracked keys, that's a problem.
creation science book
My toughts exactly. I cant believe that grandparent got modded up.
"If God created us in his own image we have more than reciprocated." - Voltaire
If Sun went under, IBM still has a kick-ass VM and SDK.
The minute Sun really starts going under, they will be gobbled up by IBM in a heartbeat.
Okay, which of you bastards wrote this article? I know it was a Slashdotter. Here's my proof.
Now contrast this with an open source business model:
1. Modify an open source software package to fit a niche market
2. Sell installations, manuals, customization service, and support to that market
3. Profit!
Seriously, isn't there some sort of recourse for the VARs to get access to the servers/backup media/whatever from the Appgen people, no matter which creditor ends up owning the machines and such? Presumably, the source code was promised to the VARs in an agreement that existed before the bills and the disappearance of the company, so there's some provision for a first-come, first-serve sort of situation, especially since the creditors can go ahead and take posession of the machines and/or physical media once the VARs have copies of the source to distribute, right? I have a hard time believing that once the company is gone no one is responsible for an agreement like this. I-ANAL, though....
"Linux doesn't exist. Everyone knows Linux is an unlicensed version of Unix"- Kieren O'Shaughnessy
This happens all the time, MS can choose to make a change and not rely on the standard. If some idiot thinks .net is anything but a stab at Java they probably thought that MS would continue to evolve IE when Netscape was finished ;)
.net exists, ironic but true. If Java were ever to go away, .net would become MS.Net with "propriatery windows enhancements" (which is not a stretch from what it is right now).
As long as Java exists
Java OTOH has several open source implementations and a very well documented API and standard process that goes all the way. Not to mention that the full Java server stack is open source!
The only reason that there are no really great OpenSource accounting packages is patents. Until the idea of computer controlled inventory, cash, device to spreadsheet interface software is PD this situation will exist.
Fortunately the guys who invented the computer spreadsheet had vision. The patents problems are with using automated interfaces to what is essentialy a spread sheet. More bullshit, and the only reason MS exists in the business world at all!
To enable inventory checking, sales, costs, by computer requires device driver interfaces. Unfortunately these devices and their I/O system are all patented, and require proprietary drivers. For trying to reverse engineer the device drivers necessary for automated accounting systems and devices, your ass could become legal grass.. real quick.
So all OpenSource can offer is great all in one OS's and the possibility in future to easily roll your own devices. If more hardware manufactures come into light then things will change very rapidly. Microsoft would evaporate over night. MS does have a habit of pissing off manufacturing developers like IBM so this will most likely occur in the next 10-20 years. The more people MS pisses off the faster the crash. And what a crash it will be, it will make Mt. St. Helens look like a fire cracker!
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
Java has several open source implementations and a very well documented API and standard process that goes all the way (standarizing everything not just core libraries and VM). Not to mention that the full Java server stack is open source!
Currently Sun also allows you to download the full source code for Java with a license that does not qualify as open source, but is definetly not as restrictive as some other licenses.
Moneydance, a pretty good pfm written in java was acquired by Appgen some time back. They may have seen it as a competitor. It was released to its original author and was reborn as Moneydance 2003 in June of this year. It is supported and for sale. It is lucky to have survived, Appgen had stopped supporting it, and it all but vanished.
Get a free ipod.
oh no, slashdot has lost the respect of some anonymous do-nothing jackhole from Nowhere, Internet. Shut 'er down boys, it's time to go home.
So if this software is belly up, why not find some 0 day elite hacker crooks to figure it out for a fee. Or I suppose, just declare it to be too impossible for them to do and see how fast it gets done.
Way to take an isolated incident and try to make a point. This is a huge generalization and generally false in my experience. In this case some developers lost.
Borland, Metroworks and other proprietary software companies make awesome products and I couldn't get by without them. There are lots of other smaller companies that have gone under, but a little bit of assembley and a hex editor can usually fix anything. If they are out of business, there shouldn't be any problems.
BTW, in many cases copy registry HKLM\Software\Licenses from a working machine to another machine to "register" controls. Not sure if this will help anyone with AppGen or not.
I lost as a closed source developer? Really? Hmm... I was a developer for 6 years, earning more than 6 figures a year doing that, while I earned nothing for the public domain apps I wrote. Hmmm... If you call that "losing", then I'd *love* to "lose" some more!
As outlined by ESR in The Cathedral and the Bazaar (and all the other essays that came with the book), you open the code and promote support and additional services.
Developers do not lose. They were paid to write a piece of software meeting particular requirements for a particular entity (their employer). They do not have any rights over that piece of software, unless their employer explicitly states so.
Someone needs a hug .
Like take where I work, for a Network Operations group. As you might guess, we operate the network. This means we know routers n' switches and such. While some of us know how to program, none of us are programmers.
So, suppose we find an open source app that does something useful like, say, send lethal electrical shocks down ethernet to kill script kiddiez. It's not as powerful or featured as the Cisco ScriptKiddie Zorcher 3500, but it has the advantage of being free, plus the author says he's working towards all the features Cisco has.
Well all of a sudden the author just up and disappears and abandons the project. Maybe he got killed, maybe he decided to start a lunar theme park with blackjack, and hookers (in fact, forget the theme park). Whatever the case, he's done with this program for good, and no one else seems to want to pickup the torch. What's worse, an exploit was just discovered in the software that allows the script kiddies to use it against other people.
So what do we do now? None of us have the skills or the time to fix the bug, much less implement the features we need. We basically have two options:
1) Contract a company to fix the exploit and add features. Expensive, and a one-time fix unless we pay a recurring fee.
2) Hire a programmer on to work on it. Also expensive. Even in a low job market, they still don't work for nothing.
This would be even worse if this were a graphics package and we were a design house with noone who even knows where to start.
So just because you have the source, doesn't mean that it does you any good. Many companies would prefer to try and find a reliable commercial vendor that is highly likely to be around for a long time. It costs more, but can be much cheaper than what it would cost in getting screwed later.
Many people here have pointed out that free software projects generally don't make money.
They are absolutely right. They don't.
Proprietary software projects generally don't make money either. Just look at Appgen. Most projects don't even do as well as this.
Looking at the success level of every sourceforge project out there and comparing it with the very few proprietary software companies (probably less than ten) that actually make any sort of money out their efforts isn't really very fair.
Of course looking soley at the packaged software market isn't very fair either. It is tiny, insignificant proportion of the total IT spend. Most of the money goes on custom in-house development, support and consultancy. Even if the entire packaged software market were to completely vanish tonight, people would still pay money on these things, and the vast majority of IT professionals would still have a job. In fact, a switch to Free Software would help rather than hinder these people in their efforts.
My assessment of open source is that it is, at its core, a software development methodology; one that is closely related to methodology of science.
Now, if this assessment is even half accurate, it would be quite absurd to blame the failure of a certain business model to the development methodology it favoured above others. In fact, methodologies cannot themselves be attributed any value; they may, at most, have different degrees of fitness for a particular purpose.
I think labeling a certain business model or a company as "open-source" is not only incorrect - it causes a lot of unneeded confusion. It is easy to get the impression that when an "open-source" company fails, it is a blow to the whole "open-source community", when this clearly cannot be the case when we view open source as a development methodology.
I know that Eric Raymond, Bruce Perens and others have done a lot of work to make us think warm, fuzzy, positive thoughts when hearing the words "open source", and I understand their reasons for doing it. However, one of the drawbacks of using that kind of tactics is that we will continue to see "open source" applied where it does not belong, taking blame where there is none to be taken.
A monk asked Joshu, "Does this company have the open-source nature?" Joshu retorted, "Mu!"
Do you remember Eazel?
That company went bankrupt too. The difference is thet they customers weren't so much screwed. Nautilus is still around and improved.
Accountancy software needs to be updated for things like changes in tax legislation. That is why a support contract of some sort is essential, even if it is Free Software.
At least if there isn't copy-protection, you are pretty much guaranteed to be able to print out the data and re-key it into another system at the end of the tax year, but you don't want to have to do that too often.
This is one of the main reasons why I chose PHP over ASP a few years ago.
I knew Microsoft was large and powerful, but I also knew that it had the potential to stumble badly on the server side. I could imagine market forces (or even Microsoft itself) making ASP irrelevant in a few years.
But "market forces" are irrelevant for PHP, because PHP doesn't participate in the "market". Its strength comes from the huge number of people who each individually choose to use it, even though no company tells them to.
These developers were short-sighted then.
There is no reason that shouldn't have demanded to enter into a source escrow agreement with the company. Then they wouldn't be in the position.
There are ways to avoid this problem without resorting to open source. (i.e. Open Source isn't the only solution to this problem).
For software escrow to really work, the escrow company has to be in between the developer and the end user. Whenever the developer wants to ship a new release, the escrow company should check it out of the source code control, build it themselves, and they should ship the binaries to the customers. This is the only way to ensure that the binaries the customers run are fully covered by escrow. But no one does that -- it is too expensive.
From reading the comments this story is about as one sided as a Microsoft FUD.
Lets follow the logic:
I think some open source software looks and runs like a bad microsoft knockoff. Therefore all open source programs look and run like bad microsoft knockoffs.
A proprietary software company goes out of business and screws its' customers along the way.
Thus, proprietary software is by nature a bad thing. AND, by the linked story's own formula, you're more likely to profit by going with open source.
This is simply foolish. If all proprietary companies did this, then yes, you could draw this conclusion. But this was one (very badly run) company, and a small one at that. Small businesses close their doors all the time, sometimes leaving their customers high and dry. You think Appgen is the only one that's ever done this?
How about all of the software companies that have suceeded? How about all of the companies that have supported their customers in good times and bad? For God's sake, IBM supported OS/2 for years, even when it was clear that few people were using it. There are hundreds of other examples I could give of software companies doing the RIGHT thing.
Open Source is a software development model and philosophy.You can argue that it's a morally superior way of business, but not a more profitable one.
And even if Appgen's code was open, that still doesn't get their customers off the hook. Where will those customers go for support? The VARs? There's only so much they can do. Even if the app was turned into a large coordinated open source project, it would still take time to assemble the proper volunteers and get the app back on track. And the customers are STILL screwed out of paid support.
I have to agree with some other posters here. Mod the article -1 GNU/Preachy.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
Looks like someone has the case of the Mondays! Oh, wait, it's Friday.
I agree that this article was incorrectly described by michael. It has nothing to do with proprietary software, and everything to do with a bad business decision. There are tons of escrow services out there and they should have either been aware of that, or have been ready for the idea that they were pissing away $2k per license.
That being said, there are quite a few aticles posted here by the editors that I don't think are worth reading..... so I don't read them.
It's pretty difficult to register a complaint with a group that provides a service for the low price of... nothing.
Saying Android is a family of phones is akin to saying Linux is a family of PCs.
FYI
http://www.osdn.com
-Valiss
Although they are probably bankrupt you can still take away their childrens' college fund
How is revenge supposed to help? Its certainly not going to produce the source code, nor will it repair your reputation with your customers.
Escrow is and always will be a risk.
Heh, you actually give a shit about money, that's funny. How quaintly archaic; but kind of cute too. Like a toddler drooling on its rattle and waving it high for the world to see. Little hidden beads of plastic drumming its superiority, as runnels of spittle fly through the air.
Next time some one talks about how it is better to buy proprietary solutions because of better 'support' point out that the following;
of all the technologies traded in th NYSE in the early 1970s, only IBM is left.
Sperry - gone.
Burroughs - gone.
DataGeneral - gone.
CDC - gone.
The list goes on. Thier proprietary solutions by and large are dead. DEC merged with Compaq which got bought out by HP and now the Alpha and VMS are orphans.
HP is in a death spiral.
MS is a new kid on the block (Burroughs for example was around for 50 years or more), and so should be regarded as shaky.
Other companies made forays into computing but pulled the plug in the 60's and 70's. Technology is a VERY volatile industry, the only way to really cover yourself is by getting the source code.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Dear God, you lead a charmed life. Any tips on finding career paths like that? I'm sure a lot of OSS advocates want to know.
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
Where is the IP? Rarely does a company go under with all its assests simply vanishing from the face of the earth. Were they bought out? Where was the source code kept? Is someone willing to sell that IP? I'm betting that all the avenues haven't been explored yet.
Fred
"A fool and his freedom are soon parted"
-RMS
Bloody Hell, Sims. This is a new low, even for you. If the asinine, juvenile, belligerent things you have said in this forum over the years are any indicator, I have a hard time believing that you are capable of functioning in society. I hope, for your sake, that this is just Keyboard Courage, and not how you act in public.
This sig intentionally left blank.
Why do you think businesses exist? If you walk into a marketing meeting of any business of a relatively large size, what is the key word you hear: Market Share. And what is market share? A partial monopoly which gives the company partial control over the market price of something.
.
What if there was an industry that prevented anyone from gaining a lot of market share. What would it look like? Such industries DO exist:
Doctore
Lawyers
Accountants
Plumbers
etc . .
There are exceptions to each of these examples (HR Block, Large auditing firms, Large law firms), but the great MAJORITY of these professionals make their living as PRIVATE entities, which means you'll never know how profitable they are.
These professionals can't gain market share because, though it takes time and money, the barriers of market are far, far less than, say, competing with MS on THEIR platform. Hence, when standards are OPEN, competition increases and the needs for financial leverage decrease as a result of smaller barriers to market.
So, your observation of just a view PUBLICLY OWNED (or business large enough for you to note their existence) entities making profits from OSS are correct. However, your inability to observe the earnings of PRIVATELY OWNED entities (or individuals who can live comfortable with just a dozen clients) using and creating OSS is not reason enough to come to the conclusion that OSS is flawed in the area of profitability. Our current system is simply limitted to requiring only public entities to publicly release their earnings and the majority of those benefitting by writing OSS are too small for you to even take notice.
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
There should be a law to provide that in the event of a company becoming bankrupt, the entire source code for any closed-source software it controls automatically enters the public domain - software IP should not be a strippable asset. Software is a tool of someone's trade, and there is an ancient law that the tools of a person's trade can never be seized in repayment of a debt. This was intended to ensure that a craftsman should never be denied the opportunity to work his way legitimately out of a bad situation. If you take away the tools of a person's trade then they may have no option but to steal - and such crimes would be on the heads of the creditors.
While this wrangle is going on, and the software is useless, the IP is worthless anyway.
This may well devalue a few investment portfolios overnight, but IMHO closed-source software is no more ethical an investment than sweatshop manufacturing or weapons of war. These people should have known what they were investing in, and if they chose to sink money into such an antisocial business then they deserve the consequences.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
I evaluated the Appgen products a few years ago. I was clear then that they were not in the software business, but in the "business opportunity" business. They were pushing their var business, not building and supporting product.
It's unfortunate, but these developers were enticed by a low startup fee, not good software.
...that Closed Source does not work. It means the product was not good enough to bring in the revenue the company needed to continue making/supporting it, and so deserved to die. This is survival of the fittest, just like has been advocated for open-source software.
Except the case at hand is development software, not accounting software. And we've already been through this before with tax software, people don't necessarily want updates, they want to preserve the year's software so it can be run in future years, which couldn't be done with the existing copy protection system.
Let me repeat, so you get it clearly: The problem is NOT with closed source software, the problem here is with COPY PROTECTION.
Of course you haven't seen too many successes with that model. Compare it to this one that works:
Take an open source project, and start a contrcting buisness to impliment it for someone.
Make small changes as your clients pay for them (or they save you more than the cost over the long run)
Roll your changes into main app along with changes from many other developers
Go back to old clients and sell them feature upgrades.
PROFIT!
Note that this contracting buisness rests on the abilities of the contrator, not elements of scale from having a big buisness. So you don't hear about anyone making it big because there is little room for big buisnesses.
Note that IBM has a slightly different model:
Sell hardware
Write custom software for customers that need it - for a price
Leverage open source so that big compititors do not get access to your customers and potentiallly take them away.
Sell all of the above to big companys that need consultants in many locations and but don't nessicarly want to have someone in each localtion to find them
profit!
...it would still belong to someone (not you!). Get a clue guys. There is a difference between Open Source and Free Software.
Generating licence keys for a software which is Open Source might still be ILLEGAL if the _licence_ says so.
I agree, I haven't seen any news about the Alpha in a long time, but it's not dead. I suspect it's a matter of Intel would rather promote their Pentium and Itanium lines than the Alpha, but they're still making them.
Yes, if you are doing your personal tax return once a year, then support isn't going to be too important as you can switch software next year pretty easily.
If you are a company who has to deal with things like VAT/Sales Tax every time you buy or sell something, and Income Tax/National Insurance or whatever every time you pay your staff, then it isn't going to be quite so easy to switch software every time the government changes the rules - generally once a year.
Duh!!!
Rely on closed-source software and you risk this very problem. We all know that. Developers MOST OF ALL should INSIST on open-source for tools and libraries.
Now management can pay them to recode everything.
love is just extroverted narcissism
"Developers Lose With Proprietary Software"
I love this crowd.
Headlines like that are so over-generalized, they are just meant to stir up flames. Lots of people jumped on it for this reason, but why bother posting it in the first place?
It is just over-zealous, over-the-top sensationalist crap.
Hey! Anyone out there got a crack for Appgen?
Seriously, if I was stuck right now I'd be paying a hacker just get me some codez. This is similar to what happened to a company where all of its Windows XP codes were lifted off of each of their HP desktop machines.
HP disavowed any responsibility and MS refused to provide new codes. Hmmm.. What recourse do you have there even when the company is still in business?! Scary stuff this proprietary software, eh?
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
you'd be able to use it in perpetuity,
Really?
I've got a few CP/M programs on 8" floppy disks somewhere in a pile here. Tell me how I can use that software today. 20 years is a lot less than "perpetuity", too...
If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
A couple interesting stories from our past and our present along these lines:
The 1960 and 1970 US Census tract level data (tract level means a subdivision of a county) are available only in a proprietary compressed format. This is because the US Government hired a programming firm (Dualabs) to write a compression scheme to be used on this census data. Dualabs wrote the program, compressed the data, and distributed the decompressor program. Census data archivists around the country only got the compressed version of the data. The US Government never made it a point to get the complete corresponding source code to that decompressor program, nor did they get a license to share and modify the program (which would have required source code to do well). The computers people initally used with the decompressor program became outmoded and the decompressor program only ran on that obsolete platform.
Dualabs went out of business in 1974. Therefore, we, the public, paid for Census data we cannot completely read even to this day without reverse engineering the compressed data format. Census data is unarguably important and few people know about this lack of foresight on the part of the US Government and Dualabs. This story has many lessons, most of which still have not been learned.
Recently the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign switched from using 5 web-based programs to do class-related stuff online (display student's grades, allow students to receive class material, discuss class projects with each other, etc.). Not long ago, UIUC dropped support for all of these programs and began supporting only Illinois Compass ("powered by WebCT Vista", as the program's proprietors tell us). Illinois Compass is non-free software and costs UIUC one million dollars a year (which UIUC is paying).
UIUC is widely known for having talented software programmers and a highly regarded college of engineering. For orders of magnitude less than $1M/yr UIUC could have paid a few students to leverage the huge pool of capable, tested, and time-honored Free Software out there in order to make a web-based bulletin board system to replace the 5 programs UIUC dropped support for. Now, with Illinois Compass, UIUC pays a team of local support staff (on top of the $1M/yr program fee) to support the new program. UIUC has no source code for Illinois Compass (let alone a license allowing them to share and modify the program). So now UIUC risks running into the same problem the US Government ran into should the proprietor's support for Illinois Compass disappear.
Sometimes these lessons take a long time to learn and cost the public a lot of money.
Digital Citizen
Seven for the dork lords, in their halls of code
Nine for BSD-based admins, doomed to die
And one for the Dark Lord on his throne
In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie
http://saveie6.com/
Every line of code you write and give away for free has the potential to push your fellow engineers out to the unemployment line. Only big corporations like IBM, or software publishers like Red Hat and Suse benefit from the free work of software engineers. Not only that, any time you start an OSS product, you are killing off similar projects where companies pay their engineers... why would they pay engineers when they can use free OSS software? OSS is promising to make a the software developer the victim of his own "success." Its only a matter of time when OSS kills software engineering as a paid industry. OSS wants every developer to become a databse administrator or a system admin or the like...
Our supplier companies have been bought out, dropped production, decided that just stopping and giving us source was more cost effective than making all the fixes our contract demanded, etc.
Due to the enormous length of our software development life cycle (10+ years!) we end up supporting a LOT of CAS.
And we do it by buying the source.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
We we do and www.plugsys.com should too.
It is a real bummer when the website you get your conversion tech from does not reply to their clients.....
Just posted this to see if anyone had information really.
Don't feel too smug about this. Appgen sold one of the few real accounting packages for Linux. Remember the Guitar-String maker that switched to linux (Ernie Ball) ? This was the accounting software they used.
Now, which accounting backend is available for Linux?
We NEED a replacement for this, open-source or not.
Sperry - gone. Burroughs - gone.
According to a FOLDOC article, Sperry merged with Burroughs to form this company. Primary consumer-visible product - here. The patent still subsists for about eight more months in Canada, Europe, and Japan.
Thier proprietary solutions by and large are dead.
I don't know about "by", but Sperry-Burroughs proprietary technology is used in a "large" number of images displayed on the World Wide Web. I'd guess that at least 90 percent of web sites, Slashdot included, use the Sperry-Burroughs proprietary product I mentioned.
Will I retire or break 10K?
THIER proprietary technology is basically dead.
Unisys's most popular proprietary technology is not dead worldwide yet, but it is terminal with eight months to live in Japan, Europe, and Canada.
Will I retire or break 10K?
This sounds like another Stallman rant. See this page for more BS like this . . .
Interesting. I have heard that with some business(s) purchasing software from small companys, do as part of the agreement, to have the source code provided as an insurance policy, in the case that the company goes out of business. This way, there's no worry if the company does go out of business, and the product can be maintained. Also, it's stipulated that the source code will not be viewed otherwise, since that isn't the purpose of the arrangement.
It's amazing. Anytime anything happens in the non-OSS world all of the sudden this is one-more-reason(tm) why all software should be open and free and why no one should have to pay.
/yr. for MSDN and all I get for that is 10 activations for WinXP and 2 activations for OfficeXP. Great. Wonderful.
I wonder how much software would actually be produced if people weren't being paid to do so.
I really hate to say it, a rather unpopular view on slashdot, but the best software I've ever used is software that requires a fee. It has the best support, best features, *quickest* evolution, better interfaces, more consistant user-interfaces, less chances of the creator abandoning the project and no one else continuing it, and so on.
However, there is a much stronger evil at play here than the software just being "proprietary".
It's the fact that it requires some type of phone-home based unlocking. That's the real evil and danger at play, not it being proprietary.
I have two cases in point.
1) I have purchased e-books in the past and unlocked them on an early WinXP drive. Sooner or later I had to reformat and re-install. Of course, without paying *again* for those ebooks, I couldn't view them. This is primary reason #1 why I don't believe in hardlocking-based unlock mechanism.
2) I have purchased an expensive book that was clearly advertised as having an e-book on the CD-ROM (one of the reasons I bought it -- I have over 300 tech books mostly C++ and assembly and C# and am trying to collect ebooks of those -- yes, I pay).
Time comes to view the ebook and many of its features requires activating it. No problem, I'll activate. Nope. The company that activates is now out of business and the book publihser assumes no responsibility or liability and that is a total 3rd party issue, not theres. So now I'm stuck with a partial ebook that I paid $95.00 for. This is why I don't like phone-home hased protection mechanisms.
--
There are some activation techniques I think are very reasonable. For example, I use libronix for most of my ebooks that are religious literature (about 200+ collections). It's a great ebook reader (blows away most others I've used) (and has no restrictions other than the ones I list below). It does requires hardlocking and phoning home but, once you do, you get a unlock file that allows you to install it as much as you want on your PC's without re-activating. The only catch is that it requires your personal info before you can unlock any works and all works you unlock can only be unlocked against your unlock file (activation). Well, there's not problem since I have no intentions of sharing it on the Internet with 500 million of my global friends. I think it is a more than fair technique. If they go out of business, I still have my permanent activation key.
3) Issues I haven't yet dealt with but I know its coming, is when MS decides to stop supporting activation of WinXP/2k3, Office XP, etc and I still require them. I pay $2000+
And there's this issue, both hardlocked-based-protection and phone-home-based protection. The deadliest combonation. People got screwd. But the issue here isn't proprietary. It's obvious that the makers of the software didn't want to make their software open-source and appearantly others didn't either nor would they have made it in the first place if they didn't think they'd make money. It's not wrong to want to be paid for your hard work. But requiring your server to be the only say-so in installation is the problem and lying about the source code escrow.
Please don't cry "this is why everything should be open-source" when something happens. I'm an excellent programmer but became excellent because I was paid to do so. That's why I can program 10-16 hours a day and get paid for my training, company paid cert
Right, and using the case at hand, if their development suite was not copy protected, they would be able to continue updating their sales tax software.
There are others also.
No, the world is not perfect. Damn shame, that.
What project should have the users of Appgen turned to? What project provided everything it did, but was open source? Answer? No project did! Yes, there are projects here and there that provide part of what their software did, or projects that promise they will have the features, but like a lot of OSS projects, there are a lot of false starts and half-assedness going on. Not surprising, it's just human nature. Shelling out $2000 is often far more preferrable to putting your business on the line on an untested, half-baked app. Not for me, not for most individuals, but the vast majority of Appgen users were not individuals.
What choice did they have? Yes, one of these companies could have developed their own suite of software like this, whether it be open source or not, making sure they wouldn't end up a rivier as in this case. But spending $2000 on a product is *nothing* compared to the cost of developing a system like this from scratch.
Furthermore, all is not lost- there are always possibilities that come company could ante up the cash, make some deal with Appgen, and purchase their software, open sourcing it or just continuing to provide support and sales.
I know it's easy to say stuff like "developers lose with proprietary software!" but like most things in life, there is a helluva lot more to it.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
I think Cult of the Dead Cow is still kicking, although I didn't know they had traded on the NYSE. That must have been in their more buttoned down days, eh ?
Expensive proprietary accounting systems don't really work either. Very few people work in an environment where they really have a computerized accounting system that works. The accounting system that most big corporations use amounts to a database built from spreadsheet data that is managed in sections by large numbers of auditors.
There's not just a niche in OSS for accounting systems, there's a niche in general for an accounting system that works at all. The problem is, there is a huge barrier to entry: The accounting systems that are useable by a public corp are often specified in terms of compliance with Delaware law. If you can develop something that can pass that compliance, you might have made the product to launch as a big player.
However, unless you are qualified to teach a GAAP course, you probably shouldn't even consider trying to make the specs for this sort of system. Accounting policy and controls, especially when it comes to tax accountability and fiduciary responsibility is a complicated game in the US, and not one that follows common sense much of the time.
So why don't some of the biggest VAR's just get in contact with eachother with a posting in some Appgen mailing list and form a holding company. They each buy equal shares in the company and use the resulting money to bid for the AppGen intellectual assets. All of the shareholder VARs in the new company get a copy of the source code including the key generator. They then sell shares to any smaller VARs that also want a copy of the source/key generator and redistribute the share income back to the shareholders as quarterly dividends. As the number of new shareholders increases, the cost of a share drops. Eventually you'll spend more money operating the shell company than you will get back in new purchases so you just close the company and six months later release the source generally as open source (make it part of the corporate charter, with source escrow this time of course).
What I don't understand in all this is why some people are saying that there are ego issues in the negotiations. Why would any of the AppGen executives (with egos on the line) still have any say in this? If the company is no longer operating, shouldn't there be an independent (court-appointed?) receiver handling all this? If the old executive and directors are still involved and causing problems, then include them in a class action lawsuit against the company for breach of contract and see if they smarten up. If a receiver is handling the liquidation, then the receiver should be open to a reasonable offer.
Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
Windows is considered proprietary (because it's not part of that open source software movement bullshit) but it's a perfectly fine operating system. Just look at the alternatives: Linux and MacOS. MacOS is nice, I'll give it that. It's just not my cup of tea. Linux, on the other hand. Don't even get me started. Let's just say, I don't have the required amount of "homosexuality" to meet the minimum operator requirements.
Linux is not considered proprietary (because it's part of that open source software movement phenomenon) and it's a perfectly fine operating system. Just look at the alternatives: Windows and MacOS. MacOS is nice, I'll give it that. It's just not my cup of tea. Windows, on the other hand. Don't even get me started. Let's just say, I don't have the required amount of "homosexuality" to meet the minimum operator requirements.
nt == "no text"
You could also check out Compiere.
It's an opensource ERP, but on a proprietary DB (Oracle).
There is also some work done in porting it to Postgres.
I don't have one
here's why.
sure you can get it for nothing. but you have to go get it.
everyone doesn't have a cdrw, or a broadband connection to download a 650 meg cd.some items have to be compiled. do you think the average person knows or cares what a dependency is? nope, and they don't wanna know.
here's what will happen. as OSS gets bigger, and more inexperienced computer users start wanting to use it, you'll see more boxes showing up in CompUSAs. why not just download the ISOs? for the reasons i already said.
but as broadband connections become more popular, as CDRWs already are, expect to see less and less ISOs posted on OSS company websites. source code cds will be there, but expect those to go away in favor of source code in FTP directories that the knowledgeable can download and compile.
developers will get paid to produce the boxes of software for the CompUSAs, and people will go in and buy the ones that do what they want, just like proprietary stuff. and they won't even know what OSS, Free Software, or proprietary means, just like now.
and developers will still get paid to do specific porting and writing for companies who want things specific to them that aren't found in the OSS community but can be written on OSS software.
i don't see why people don't realize that the source of software will be unimportant to people. the industry will be made up of software companies putting out their software for mass consumption and paying armies of developers to do it, then posting the source on their FTP site for the techies. to compete with the companies taking their stuff and remarketing it, they will just have to be faster and better thatn the competition, which will spur development, which is good, right?
Appgen is an accounting system with it's own IDE. It sort of has libraries in that you already have the GL/AR/AP/Payroll already done. You can then add custom applications or modify the ones that they already have. It is a pretty nice system. I hope it does not die. Linux could use a good middle level acounting system and GNUCash is not it. MoneyDance is not it. GNUe is not ready yet. They have not written any of the accounting apps yet.
Maybe RedHat or Suse could pick up Appgen.
The good news is the VARs support the customers not Appgen directly when the dust clears I am sure that the customers will be okay.
Before anyone asks I am not currently an Appgen Var or customers. I was a var a long time ago but my company dropped development because we where too busy with our core product.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.