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NWN - Hordes of the Underdark in Stores
morcego writes "BioWare has done it again. Another expansion pack for Neverwinter Nights has been released. This time, it's Hordes of the Underdark, in case you haven't been following. Reviews are already available, including it being rated 4.5/5 on GamesDomain.
Atari (the publisher) also have a press release about it."
More camera control...finally Small level compared to previous expansion or original module, but still fun... Mostly a developers/builders set of tiles/creatures.. One of the funnest games (NWN) I've played in years...
The expansion CD does not have a native Linux installer yet, and the binaries necessary to play this game on Linux haven't been released yet. Their ETA is "early next week", when they release the 1.60 patch for Windows users to get the games in sync. So if you're going to rush out and buy this expansion, don't expect to be able to play it immediately, as it will not work just yet.
I can't play that, I'm too busy play Knights of the Old Republic (also by Bioware) for the PC.
Truthfully, I never liked NWN. Its multiplayer doesn't support enough people. MMORPGs are the future of RPG type games.
Viral software licensing is not freedom, it is in fact GNU/Socialism.
I for one welcome our new Hordes of Underlords
There's no official Mac version of SoU, but it's possible to install the latest update for original NWN, then copy the SoU data files into it. I wonder whether this will also work for Underdark?
Personally, I thought NWN was a great game, and Hordes of the Underdark looks like a worthy expansion. I'll certainly be getting it - I loved the original, and it is one of the only recent games to provide a native Linux version (I run Gentoo, so it's either Winex or native Linux for me) I'm happy and proud to support Bioware provided they keep producing Linux versions of their games. I know they were a little late with NWN, but at least they were true to their word, and if we show them there is a demand for Linux games they will surely take notice and improve their linux support even further.
I can't find a way to bash Microsoft in this article.
Please advise.
where does bioware get their quality from? their KOTOR is just amazing. (although i can't compare it to any other RPG, since it's the first one i've ever played)
it just goes to show that quality can still be found in new games, as opposed to crap we find in sw:galaxies, enter the matrix, or deus ex 2.
my hat's off to bioware...
If you don't know what AltaVista is (was), get off my lawn.
I absolutely love this game. I think it's the whole D&D type genre that does it for me (I've never actually played with a pencil and paper though). The thing that does kind of get me down is the camera angles. I much prefer the way morrowind was done. The graphics in NWN have better resolution, but morrowind was just stunning. It's too bad they can't mix the two.
What I really wish is that someone would make an ungodly beautiful game that's made with multiprocessor machines.
*drools*
Personally, I thought NWN was a great game, and Hordes of the Underdark looks like a worthy expansion. I'll certainly be getting it - I loved the original, and it is one of the only recent games to provide a native Linux version (I run Gentoo, so it's either Winex or native Linux for me) I'm happy and proud to support Bioware provided they keep producing Linux versions of their games. I know they were a little late with NWN, but at least they were true to their word, and if we show them there is a demand for Linux games they will surely take notice and improve their linux support even further!
Was anyone else disappointed at NWN? I haven't played any of the expansions, but I found the original game lacking in many ways to BG and Torment. You can definitely tell that Black Isle's story telling abilities are sorely missed. It never seemed to draw you in or give you any "cool" story experiences.
Secondly, the henchmen were utterly lacking. Part of the fun of the Infinite Engine games were the companions. I loved the companion interactions and definitely made the store much more enjoyable and meaningful. It wasn't just that you beat some badguy, but you had a journey. NWN henchmen seemed like a hack. Something bolted on as to not make it Diablo
Third, the tile engine was way too obvious. In many ways the Infinity Engines looked better. How many random identical looking caves can someone go through?
Lastly, the fights sucked. Mostly slashing weak monsters and an occasional boss. Of course, with only two companions there is only so much you can do.
I do think Bioware redeemed themselves with Knights of the Old Republic. While still a bit contrived, they have improved in their story telling and the combat and companion systems are greatly improved.
Brian EllenbergerNot necessarily. MMORPGs, at least for me, and a lot of people I know, only hold interest for a couple of hours, after which meaningless hack n' slash becomes incredibly dull and you simply socialize with everyone...Which can easily be done in a chat room. Plus, every MMORPG is essentially the same as every other. There is little to no story to set them apart from others.
To each his own, but Non-MMORPG roleplaying games will always have their large market, as storytelling is what many people look for in a good game, not hack n' slash.
The last expansion pack for NWN was a bit of a let-down (it averaged a 79%) but this pack seems to have much better chances.
Does anyone have any statistics on how the intitial release and first expansion pack fared at retail? I am looking forward to a full-blown sequel, but the publisher seems here more willing to issue a "Gold Edition" than to invest in a new full game.
I've read bits and pieces and I'd actually like to try this series out.
Where do I start is the original game called Never Winter Nights?
Do the expansions go in order or are they each seperate games?
Thanks
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
And don't forget, unless you want to play online, you can easily download all the original NWN files necessasary to play NWN on Linux directly from the Bioware site, plus a stand-alone linux server. If only someone could crack the Linux version (or make a cd-verifying server that I could point the ip of nwn.bioware.com to verify my pirated key), it would be a truly merry christmas!
And I'm currently downloading at 22k. Cmon guys!
.. for 20 bucks, hell yeah. That's almost enough to buy the NWN expansion!
I really enjoyed Neverwinter's game engine, and found it expounded upon all others, but storyline still hasn't evolved beyond 'pick the response which you think will lead to another exchange between this character'
They throw Alignment in there, and then give you 'good' and 'evil' roles to play, which consist basically of:
Good? Offer to do everything for free, see most of the game.
Evil? Push for a bit of profit in every encounter, get shut out about a third of the time. Miss that much of the game.
You'll find me buying the expansion pack where player's choices are the axial decision in gameplay, not the plot-designer's.
NWN by itself is an average game. What extends it as one of the most amazing games of all time is it's unprecedented "hackability". Nordock.net is an excellent example. It started as a small module written for the friends of the creater, Marc. It's since grown into a three server, persistant world with a user base of several thousand. There are typically 10-20 people in-game at any given time. This makes the game much more friendly, IMHO, than commerical MMORGs; there are much less powergamers and more role-playing. Plus they have about a dozen DMs, most of which are really cool and regulary run spontanious quests.
If you want to give it a shot, here are the server addresses:
nordock1.nordock.net:5121nordock1.nordock.net:5122
nordock1.nordock.net:5124
They all share the same character vault, so you can play on any of them.
Entrepreneur : (noun), French for "unemployed"
up on SuprNova.org by tomorrow.
Play it online, or grab one of the numerous campaign modules availiable for NWN designed by players. The campaign that Bioware included in NWN struck me as more a showcase piece than the actual game. There are some very very good games out there. Just think of NWN as the engine to run them on :)
An expaintion to NWN personally am playing X2 the threat http://www.x2-game.com/ its got a near elite like experience to it.
James
wouldn't that actually be something like tesseractic?
I agree, I too am a Gentoo user. I used to dual-boot simply to have some gaming goodness but with each quality Linux release from companies such as Bioware, I found myself booting less and less into that other OS, until it was just (a large amount) of used space on my hard drive.
We can only hope that the great and the good people of Bioware keep up this policy to inspire more people to come on board the good ship OSS. And of course the more people that follow the good path, the more companies will support Linux. I mean after all, the developers want to develop for Linux, they are just like us.
I have Baldur's gate on DVD......what a fucking relief to never have to change the CDs! How come they haven't done that since then? If they packed all the expansions onto one DVD I'd buy it....till then I'll pass.
That is a debatable point since the ammount of actual role playing going on in MMORPG's like Everquest is actually quite minimal. In truth, the whole MMORPG paradigm is just not suited to telling an involving story. It is especially unsuited to telling a story where the player gets to play someone particularily interesting as opposed to yet another "adventurer" out to whack a few snakes and move on to higher levels and bigger snakes.
MMORPG's are certainly highly addictive, but so far, have not really progressed much beyond being a skinner's box wraped up in some fantasy and garnished with ample opportunity for socialization. (not entirely a bad thing) Single player RPG's, on the other hand, are a lot like interactive novels. Games like NWN that provide robust development tools to end-users are essentially interactive novels which encourage fan-fiction.
MMORPG's and games like NWN both have their distinctive niches and, while they may be based around the same sort of fantasy universes, are completely different animals which are both unlikely to go extinct anytime soon.
Not only that, but I believe the company has totally raised the bar for computer game standards. An auto-updater is included, support for Mac and Linux, standalone servers, tons of downloads on their server (they even host a fan-made movie), etc, etc.
I hope they come out with more mods, or at the very least keep improving on a really fun game.
Might have something to do with the link not starting the download.
Anyone have any idea why NWN stories always hit the front page? Isn't that what the games section is for?
I mean the odd one or two I could understand, but every bit of news about the game turns up here... pretty much the only game with this honour
I just clicked the Im feeling lucky button and your site came up.
That's funny, I pushed your grandmother's button and she went down. Crazy world, eh?
I just got the game yesterday and i must say. Bioware pulled me back in. I wasn't as thrilled with Shadows of Undertide as I was the first. But Hordes of the Underdark is...well...bitchin.
And yes it works in linux just in case anyone is wondering.
75% of all statistics are made up!
I wasn't too thrilled with the "official campaign," (but I'm something of a game snob), but the module creation ability *really* mades this game. I even made a Roguelike module for the thing (though it required a lot of working around of Roguelike-unfriendly design assumptions, and I haven't had time to work on it much lately).
Also, I hear that the Hordes of the Underdark finally lets your characters advance to epic (over 20) levels. *That* is cool.
I mean really ... we already know that anyone who plays it gets a "monitor tan" ... but to call them "Underdark" is just too much
Karma? Karma? I don't need no stinkin' karma.
My biggest complaint about NWN is not the henchmen or the graphics, but the fact that they blatantly broke the D&D 3E ruleset and subsequently made a sub-par CRPG engine with an above average toolset.
This game was supposed to be an ONLINE version of tabletop Dungeons and Dragons. Clearly some sacrifices were made to appease various camps but in the end they released something that's a bastardization between tabletop and Baldur's Gate that seems to capture all the wrong elements. They want the interface to stem from a single character like in a tabletop session so they threw out the party system. They then wanted a single player experience so they decided to add AI henchmen which became AI henchman. To compensate they unbalanced the rules, items, and monsters so a single character was powerful enough to get through the campaign.
The bad news is that single player games will use these same defaults and be similarly unbalanced. Multiplayer games, on the other hand, need to be tweaked and rebalanced excessively to recreate the tabletop experience.
Bioware has made it known on Gamasutra (see postmortem) and in Edge Magazine (briefly) that the developement of NWN was less than ideal. The mods are good, but technically the engine is disappointing when compared to other CRPG's, graphical adventures, and to real tabletop gaming. It really shows and I can only hope they get it right next time.
As it stands I sold my original NWN and might only get it again as a trilogy pack in the $10 bargain bin.
Oh yeah, and people looking for a good toolset for making Japanese style RPG's might take a look at RPG Maker 2003 by Enterbrain for Win9x/2k/NT/XP. It uses a 2D tileset engine and your friends can play your games without a copy of the editor. The editor reminds me of StarCraft's and NWN's. There is a thriving underground community dedicated to it around the world.
Atari is really Atari the way SCO is really SCO.
And don't think you're fooling anyone by using the old-skewl font, neither.
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
Here
Here
In related news, the "Crowds of the OverLight" expansion pack was met with less enthusiasm. This expansion pack features a world composed of mini-vans and soccer-moms that nearly everyone can infact see... not just madmen. Gamers state that "Crowds of the OverLight" just isn't as "cool."
[signature]
when you level-down with a dragon disciple, your character keeps the stat bonuses. and your character is still legal, too. uber-uberness on the way \o/
--- Back to the trees, back to the trees !
The Gold Edition is a cracking buy monywise, but anyone who hasn't played any D&D RPG games should buy the original because it includes the extensive ring-bound manual.
Gold only supplies PDF's, and unless you have another PC to read them on while playing they're useless...
blaah !
Where is the BeOS version huh?
Tom
Oh arse
... and that was some negative remarks that quickly became considered as flames by NWN zealots. :-)
:-D (with a beautiful model with skeleton parts floating inside its body)
So I'd just like to say that HotU seems to be great! In the end, after these two (?) years, BioWare has produced a VERY feature rich system for creating campaigns. I haven't played it for long, but already noticed lots of new major features in the Toolset:
- Skies depending on tileset
- Robes realistically flowing as the character wearing them walks around
- Beholders, mindflayers, dracoliches, even OOZE
- Weapon and armor crafting, potion brewing, oh my...
- Support for epic levels, with epic feats and all
- Lots of new prestige classes
- Attachable demon/angel/dragon/butterfly/bird wings to characters, attachable tails of several variations as well. Making cool celestial, demonic and draconic humanoids just became so much easier.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
For those who didn't think the bundled game was brilliant (which to be honest it wasn't) try the Shadowlords and Dreamcatcher campaigns. The author has created a very long continuing story that is vastly superior to any of Biowares releases (other than hordes which I don't have yet). They are also free.
/.ed out of existance. You can find the modules on the nwvault.com.
I won't post a link to the the authors homepage as I don't want the guy
Warning! This post may contain a pun!
Also, you can't have it both ways either. If BioWare had given us a MMORPG, we would *still* be without a decent RPG development system to make campaigns for playing with friends. I think NWN fills an important niche, and there would be a risk that NWN would just drown in all MMORPG's out there if BioWare had chosen to go that path.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
To unlock, go to console (tilde) and type "unlockcamera 1", or go to the talk bar and say "##unlockcamera 1".
To make it permanent, edit nwnplayer.ini - add "UnlockCamera=1" to [Control Options] section
... too bad they don't make this one in Argentina... they only made NWN :( And to import it I have to pay 50% more of the price of the product... in dollars... oh well. Thank God for the torrents, even if I can't play online
:: Andrea
Anime Wallpapers
Too damn many good games lately! I still haven't finished the main campaign, I haven't even touched Shadows of Undrentide, and that's only part of the problem... FFXI is sucking me in, Sword of Mana is good eatin' (especially if you played the original), and a friend desperately wants me to play through WC3 so he can whomp me... At least whatever I don't finish now will pull me through the next big slump.
"Why Subscribe?" Good question...
It seems us Europeans are presumed smart enough to already know every spell in NWN+SOU. The US release includes manuals, EU release doesn't.
Releveant Bioware Forum Threads:
here andhere
blaah !
Beware though, unlike the other two releases, the official Hordes Campaign cannot be played in multiplayer mode, so as far as i'm concerned the coolest part of these type of games, Roleplaying, isnt possible in this release (not in the official campaign anyway) If you check the bioware forums you'll notice alot of pissed off people posting.
Have not played HoU yet but I remember reading that the single player campaign now has three party members.
Of course the REAL way to play NWN is online with a party of 4-6
What post? The one you're carrying inside your rusty innards!
People, the Bioware folks have worked hard to give us a strong, true-to-the-rules AD&D on our PCs, Linux support for a tier-one game, given us free toolkits, game servers, and modules for expansion; for Ghu's sake, open your damn wallets for once.
I'm all for file-sharing, but these guys deserve some support...
I know I'm going to get modded down for saying this, but it has to be said:
Hordes of the underdark in stores sounds to me like the rush of gamers crawling out of their caves and into walmart to buy this new game.
Go away, or I will replace you with a very small shell script.
I agree! And you don't have to buy everything, they are offering up the entire linux downloads off their site for the original game. If you feel cheap, ask for the expansion for Christmas, and download the original.
At least Bioware will get some money.
If that's what you want, so be it.
Cheers!
grubby
Funny thing is, I borrowed the CDs from a friend and installed it on my Gentoo box. When I saw how great the game was and that they had done a great job porting it to Linux, I immediately went out and purchased my own copy. This game is worth it because it's so much more than other games that offer no replay value.
90% of everything is crap. Also, crap is relative.
I'd like to make a point about NWN and it's expansions from the builders/server admins point of view.
When I made my mod I wanted to make a fun balanced place for those who had NWN to play. I think I did a pretty good job of that and many a player has had fun slaying dragons and such so I think I succeded in that regard. However...
Then they released SoU. Not only did they make it very hard for the people who had NWN mods to edit any of the scripts that were now included in SoU unless you made your server SoU only, but even if you kept your module in NWN mode both NWN and SoU players could join and play. Needless to say the SoU players had a great advantage as they had more spells, feats, and classes to use. The balance in my mod was totally disrupted and even though I was able to fix some of the things that SoU broke, I simply was not willing to put the time in again to rebalance my module. (Would have requried many many hours of testing and tweaking.)
Now, with HoU the rules have changed again and rather drasticly. More new spells, feats, classes, and last but not least levels beyond 20.
The time and effort that I would have to put into making my mod even playable by everyone would be staggering let alone the thought of rebalancing the encounters and quests.
It appears the way that BioWare has chosen to impliment the xpacks has made it such that they can't impliment a disallow SoU/HoU players from using the features that they give the game but it is a great dissapointment to me. After nearly a year of hosting I'm quite sure that I will soon be forced to pull down my servers as HoU players come online and upset the balance.
NWN is an amazing game. I would not have put so much time and effort into making a mod had I not liked the idea of it, but after watching SoU trash my module and now HoU ready to blow it out of the water I'm a little sad.
Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
I read, "Hordes of the Underdark in Stores" and though, "yeah, that's exactly why I'm staying far, far away from the mall scene until after Christmas." Then I realized that "Hordes of the Underdark" is probably a game title.
Well, i'm not quite sure what the person above was complaining about for load times, and as far as 'parties' are concerned, in multiplayer you can party as many people as are on the server.
Now for the plug: If youw ant to play online with real people and roleplay in depth, and aren't worries about your character's level rising to the mid 20's quicly, check out Battledale, under the Roleplay section of the Gamespy Arcade client.
"It takes a very long time to count to 2 in binary." ~'Fourlegged'
Go ahead and flame me for asking...but how far did you play in NWN, and how involved did you get with the storyline? I've got a co-worker who bought the original NWN on the same day I did...and a week later he was thoroughly trashing the game. He hated it. He was looking for the next Baldur's Gate, and this wasn't it. He hated the shallowness, he hated the hirelings, he hated it all.
Then I started talking to someone else about the hireling quests...trying to help Tomi find the forged document proving his innocents... And helping people out around Neverwinter, some of the side-quests. I mentioned some of the later chapters, like the one where you sit in judgement over two muderous brothers. He wondered what game I was talking about...and when I told him it was NWN he was absolutely amazed. Apparently he'd only played for a little while and then given up.
I will agree that the original NWN is very anemic compared to Baldur's Gate. The storyline isn't quite as rich or as deep...in this respect it compares better to the Icewind Dale games. As for the hirelings... Well, they weren't real great in NWN either...but the expansions have really improved. The hirelings in SoU and HotU now interrupt the game with comments, interact with you, toss comments into a conversation, point out things you may have missed...and there are many more options for dealing with them, including the ability to manage their inventory.
I think the problem is that in NWN, BioWare set out to create basically a D&D engine...and that's where most of the effort was focused. The storytelling suffered a bit because of that. In the expansions though...the engine is done, and the emphasis is now on the storytelling. And both the expansions have been much better than the original NWN storyline.
yrs
Ephemeriis
"Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
What I'm looking for is something that would help me work with multiple people on the same project. I'm accustomed to using CVS or similar all the time, is there anything similar for NWN?
I lost a lot of interest when I was told the solution was basically a design by contract and people essentially worked on zones separate from each other. This gives each person a vertical slice of the world. I'd like a horizontal slice where I could do coding someone else do mapping, someone else do dialog...etc.
This is the one aspect of the development that fell short, and that I'd like to see in some future game. Make the tools assuming that several people will be working on it at once and using source control.
t
i'd say quartic
ebay it for cheap or find it somewhere else but YOU MUST PLAY IT.
The expansion pack comes with a new cd-key. The original files are all available to download, and are completely playable off of a pure linux machine.
There is no need to install to a Windows partition for the original installation anymore, and if you don't want to play online, there isn't a need for a registered CD-key, just a mathematically valid one.
So you can technically download the entire NWN game, install it and use a keygen to get a key. This key won't let you play online, but you can play the game. Since the new expansion comes with a new key, you can buy the expansion, install the original, use a keygen, install the expansion, use the proper key, and go on your merry way playing online. SoU was the same.
Heya guys, this might be considered spam... but I think it is still on-topic. Most of NWN fun comes from modules and the community, there is a lot of reply value on PW. (presitant worlds).
Anyways, I'm a player (not a admin or anything) at a mod call World Of Caenyr. I just want to say if you like 'old-school' or 'hardcore' RPG then you should check this place out. It has a great user base and is a great and easy way to get the "sitting around the table with freinds" RPG expeirence if you don't have any freinds that are into RPGs...
Please give it an honest look, I guarnette you'll get hooked:
http://www.worldofcaenyr.com/
Try Final Fantasy XI. It's the first MMORPG to actually tell a story where your character is important (well, first one I have played in any case). But more importantly, it is actually fun too (another first in the MMORPG category for me).
Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
I have indeed played it, in between BG and BGII, but only for a couple of hours. The whole zombie angle didn't really appeal to me -- I much prefer daylight, birds singing, and pretty wenches.
Regards,
--
*Art
I started talking to someone else about the hireling quests...trying to help Tomi find the forged document proving his innocents...
Yeah, that's a great quest, that is. It consists entirely of running round the entire city opening every container and hoping you'll find the documents in one of them. Wow, that's what I call gameplay.
I mentioned some of the later chapters, like the one where you sit in judgement over two muderous brothers.
And, to be fair, that's a genuinely good and interesting quest. But there's too much dross in NWN for the odd gem like that to redeem it.
I am one of the founders of Dor Maeglin, which is one of the more popular persisant/modded worlds for NWN. I've got to tell you that the expansion pack process has been a series of consecutive nightmares where features are added simply to move product and not fix systemic and persistent problems with the game and its performance (especially the server!). People on our team have practically rewritten the entire game to make it a fun experience for players.
We have spent thousands of development and content creating hours to make our world/mod what it is today.
What I really wish would happen is that BIOWARE would change NWN to a subscription based service - more like a channel.
The reason this would be beneficial is that instead of having to spend millions of dollars in marketing to the same audience and convince them to buy your sequels - you keep that audience and solidify their brand loyalty while generating enough revenue to constantly improving the core product. Why constantly re-convince the fantasy RPG people to come back when you can make it profitable for them to never leave? Especially since NWN allows folks to create world that they themselves want to play in!
IMHO, these expansion packs are nothing more than them trying to squeeze every dollar they can get out of a decreasing user base and destroying any remaining brand loyalty in the process. Make it $9 a month. Hell, I bet they would make tons of more money. I have no problem spending more money if I get real value for it. It's like cutting down the apple trees after every harvest - why not just let the trees grow instead of replanting them each year. [bad analogy mode off]
For folks not familiar with NWN, NWN is somewhat unique in that it's not a MMORPG - but allows for many smaller worlds to exist that can be completely 'modded' to the tastes of the world-builder. It's wonderful because you can find the world you like and not be saddled with one-big corporately mandated rule-set. We have typically around 80-100 active players (35-40 online at any given time) and they love our server so much that they actually donated money to buy a dual linux server for us.
In general the player support is amazing, the 3rd party support is phenomenal (Avliss MySQL connector is amazing ), the community creativity is amazing - but Bioware doesn't want to take advantage of this. If they stopped viewing NWN as a shrink wrapped product and viewed it as channel, like in television, they could clean-up financially and make a lot of folks happy. What used to be D&D module on pen-and-paper is now a mini-persistent world.
It's all such wasted potential I want to cry. (if you would like to play and visit us, please visit www.mntl.com)
-_-
Hey, thanks for stealing our game, much appreciated.
If you plan to play on Linux, make sure you either send in your registration card with windows scribbled out and Linux handwritten in, or buy from http://www.tuxgames.com/details.cgi?gameref=115 where we will report each sale as a Linux sale.
Tux Games. Your complete source for native Linux games.
Fortunately some stores used "Stinking Cloud" and other area-of-effect spells to keep the Hordes from disrupting Christmas shoppers.
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
I didn't Dave, as well as a lot of other people. Ignore that troll. Thanks a lot for a great expansion - makes me happy to give money to such a responsive company. Viva Bioware! Now if I could only figure out this colored chains thing...
Eat recycled food - it's good for the environment, and OK for you.
The last chapter sucked ass. Bigtime. The end battle was dull dull dull.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.