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Games X Copy Stirs Backup Controversy
Thanks to GameSpy for its article covering the unveiling of a utility called Games X Copy at this year's CES show in Las Vegas. This commercially-sold gaming backup option claims: "You no longer need to fear losing your expensive PC game collection to scratches, skipping, or freezing... Now you can simply back them up and put the expensive original in a safe place, and the backup will play on your PC just like the original." The maker of this soon-to-launch utility, 321 Studios, has faced lawsuits previously regarding its DVD X Copy software, and a prominently marketed, gaming-specific backup product is sure to cause sparks - the GameSpy article writer comments: "No matter how much 321 Studios claims that parents with the most honorable intentions are its target market, it's easy to see where it would be the perfect item for unscrupulous gamers to copy software to give to or trade with their friends. It goes against everything the industry has been fighting against."
No matter how suitable this product is to game piracy, I doubt many will be sold with that end in mind. Those who pirate games pirate all kinds of software. Frankly, I don't see how they're going to make any money at all.
See you, space cowboy...
It goes against everything the industry has been fighting against.
So it's supports whatever the industry is fighting for?
Nice to see that these are the types of intellectual giants we're up against.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
"It goes against everything the industry has been fighting against."
:-)
You would think this would be considered a good thing by the industry...
Tricky double negations
O.K. there is a B.S. program that will copy any game disc perfectly. Yeah, right. Even with the plethora of of cd/dvd copying software out there it still is not an easy task copying some of today's games. Also, the game industry will always be ahead of these "all in one" copy programs. Irregardless of if you can actually make an "easy" backup of your game, it does not propagate rampant piracy as one would think. Look at Unreal Tournament. Think you are going to give your buddy a copy so you both can play online? Wrong. You have to connect to the internet to play and it checks your serial number. Newer discs have inperfections purposely in them and the program scans for those inpefections and if it does not detect them, the game will not run. Ultimately, the game publishers and movie studios greatest "enemy" is the casual copier, not ripoffs from Hong Kong or counterfeit games/dvds. I always scratch my cds/dvds, mainly because I am a laxy slobbo that never puts them back in their cases. Do I really deserve the right to backup my games/movies? :)
"Jeremy, you need to get to an internet cafe and cut and paste some appropriate sentiments about me from the world wide
"It goes against everything the industry has been fighting against."
Hooray! It's a good thing it doesn't go against everything the industry's been fighting for - then they'd really be in trouble.
.evom ton seod gis eht
There are a few programs that do just this already.
Alcohol 120
Blindwrite
CloneCD
They all do pretty decent jobs making 1:1 backup copies of software. Granted, there are some copy protection schemes they have trouble with (I believe Alcohol 120 had problems with Safecast2 for awhile. Not sure if they've fixed it yet), but all of them are being actively developed and reasonably priced if you're looking for that sort of thing.
Oh gods! You've used the forbidden word! You're in for it now!
People are always going to pirate games. It's just too easy to copy 1s and 0s. I think the solution is the opposite of what the game industry is doing: Sell me more than the disc. I want physical items that are worth more to me, such as a big thick manual, maps, posters, maybe even a player's guide, right in the same box with the shiny disc. I would imagine I'm not alone on this and that if gamers received something more tangible than a disc with their $50, perhaps they would be more inclined to purchase.
This post is not meant to advocate piracy. It's meant to advocate customer rights. Remember when the customer was always right? Now the customer is a consumer, and the consumer is a lying dirty pirate who needs his entertainment sufficiently crippled to prevent him from stealing. Well, this attitude is exactly the sort of thing fueling the pirates.
Really, the best way to stop piracy is to actually make the game worth $50. Like I said, give us more tangible items in the box, give us the freedom to copy the disc without special hardware or software hacks, and don't cripple the software we purchase with things like SafeDisc.
I could rant on, but I'm preaching to the converted here anyway, I'm sure.
"To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking
Game producers, music producers, movie producers, anyone distributing digital content, these people all need to realize the same fact:
If you can read it, you can *copy* it.
Period.
It's all just varying levels of difficulty beyond that. If people want it bad enough, it will happen (even of they have to run a wire to each pixel of their DHCPv4 enabled LCD or whatever). Any copy protection to be viable over the long term needs to be based not on media based protections, but on real cryptography. Smart companies know this, hence, Palladium.
... and when the company goes out of business?
You have a right, protected by Congress, to make copies of this sort. It's called 'fair use', and it covers all sorts of stuff. You've purchased the right to use copyrighted material, and you have the right to protect your investment by making a copy.
People who ask to make use of their rights are never in the wrong. Companies that provide products to make it easier for people to make use of their rights are also not in the wrong. This software is legal, its use as advertised is legal, and the people buying it have every right to make use of it for its stated purpose.
You've set up a straw-man argument, implying that the majority of people here believe "you have unlimited rights to do as you wish with purchased copyrighted material" -- you'll find that's not true. If anything, the people here most likely have a better understanding of copyright law than the common public. Why? Because most of them deal with intellectual property day-in and day-out. It's simply not fair to bundle "Free Software advocates" and "hackers" (in the sense you seem to be implying) together.
As to government intervention: government intervention is what gave us copyright law, 'fair use', and the DMCA. Maybe someone can find the details for us, but I'm fairly sure our government has also ruled that there is a conflict between the DMCA and 'fair use' when it comes to DVD's in particular -- and as I recall, it was decided that 'fair use' wins. I really hope someone digs that up for us, I'm heading to bed.
In the end, that's your stuff they're selling to you, or at least your grandchildren's, our society's. Intellectual property, once published, is destined to become ours, collectively. You have every right to archive it as you see fit (protected by 'fair use') considering we can't trust those who produce this stuff to make sure we get what's ours. Extreme? That's the price they pay for copyrights, the price they agree to when they get in the business of producing stuff, whether it be games, music, images, text, video (etc.) or a combination thereof.
There is already a 3.5mb shareware program that will copy any and all games. Google Alcohol 120%. CloneCD is crap, i've seen it fail on numerous games, whereas Alcohol 120% never fails to make a perfect copy. I doubt even this overpriced Game X Copy program will even match it. There were better free DVD copying programs around on the internet long before DVD X Copy came out. Google Gordian Knot, by the way.
Repeal the DMCA!
Okay, with the MPAA already on their back, they just invited every PC (And some console, I would guess) game publisher to hate them as well. What's next? MUSIC X COPY and KARAOKE X COPY to piss off everyone else?
but I will say that Free Software advocates, hackers, and the like have proven themselves to be simply criminals by supporting things like DeCSS. If you can't play DVD on linux than don't break the law. Lobby to companies to legitimately get that feature or try to get governmental intervention.
You might as well wear a 10-foot billboard that says "I'm a troll"! That wasn't a subtle enough troll to make any but the stupidest slashdotters bite.
Repeal the DMCA!
It goes against everything the industry has been fighting against.
I suppose it also generates registration numbers and hacks into MMORPG accounts too does it?
Most games are heading towards an online model where the ability to copy the game media is often encouraged.
>>If anything, the people here most likely have a better understanding of copyright law than the common public. Why? Because most of them deal with intellectual property day-in and day-out.
Unless you're a lawyer who has had judgements for copyright suits, you dont know diddly.
Reason is that the idea of "Fair Use" must ALWAYS be tested in court. There isn't a hard and fast definition of that idea.
Copy II PC Stirs Backup Controversy
Posted by ConceptJunkie on 83-05-31 3:51
Thanks to Byte magazine for its article covering the unveiling of a new version of its utility called Copy II PC at this year's Comdex show in Chicago. This commercially-sold floppy disk backup option claims: "You no longer need to fear losing your expensive PC software collection to bad or erased floppy disks... Now you can simply back them up and put the expensive original in a safe place, and the backup will work on your PC just like the original." The maker of this soon-to-launch utility, Central Point Software, has faced lawsuits previously regarding its Copy II PC software, and a prominently marketed, software backup product is sure to cause sparks - the Byte article writer comments: "No matter how much Central Point claims that users with the most honorable intentions are its target market, it's easy to see where it would be the perfect item for unscrupulous people to copy software to give to or trade with their friends. It goes against everything the industry has been fighting against."
We see how much illegal copying has devastated the software industry so far. No one could ever make a hundred-million-dollar company in such a crook-friendly climate. Besides, selling replacements discs is a legitimate means of revenue for companies. I had to pay $5 for a replacement copy of Autoduel for my Amiga. It's my fault the floppy was damaged.
Plus ca change, plus ce la meme chose.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
you started right.
If the content is meant to be read, it will be copied, regardless of the scheme used. the instructions for what the protection scheme is looking for to determine authenticity of the media are right in the executable. you've handed the map to your stash right to the treasure hunters - it's all a matter of time.
the only situation that can get you around this, and even then it's largely temporary, is if the software has to be 'enabled' by a central authority to operate each time. Eg. CD Key schemes for online games.
however, for most software/media content it is not at all feasible to ask your customer to be online every time they want to use your product.
and in reality, the code used on the client to request and verify the 'activation' is once again, right there on the client system. the untrusted system. at the heart, every software protection scheme can be circumvented with a single altered jump statement.
the -best- you can do is to isolate 'pirated' copies of your product from the rest of your online community. and at the same time, you've spent millions of dollars and hundreds of man-hours on a situation that isn't even proven to 'protect' sales.
'lost' sales to piracy is a vague amount that is touted by software protection vendors - but no-one has ever shown (via scientific study) that using a product like SafeDisc will net you more sales than if you hadn't used it. on top of that, no-one has studied whether any such possible increase in revenue could even cover the cost of implementing and supporting the copy protection scheme in the first place.
'palladium' is based on the idea that the client can be a trusted member of a conversation, but frankly, that isn't a very safe assumption in any situation where the client doesn't have to participate in the conversation to be useful.
as long as it's technically possible to run a self-signed application (think anyone with a development certificate), the client will be hacked. that all code must be signed may keep the binary from being anonymously distributed, but it can not and will not prohibit the data and source patch from being distributed.
all palladium allows is, once again, the ability to cordon off 'pirated' copies of your software from the rest of your online community. if it's useful as standalone software - it just won't help.
// "Can't clowns and pirates just -try- to get along?"
The target market for this software is more likely to put it to legitimate uses.
Coz the others won't buy Games X Copy, they'd copy it instead, or just use other CD/DVD copying software. Doh.
Unless you're a lawyer who has had judgements for copyright suits, you dont know diddly.
;P
Reason is that the idea of "Fair Use" must ALWAYS be tested in court. There isn't a hard and fast definition of that idea.
I can't disagree with the fact that only IP laywers would really know ALL the ins and outs of copyright law...but I disagree with your statemet that ALL cases must be tested in court for validity. In our current (corp-friendly) legal climate, validity isn't exactly a good measure of what's "legal"
Case in point: I just (finally) bought a copy of Icewind Dale II (long live the memory of BIS!). In the manual it states (and I paraphrase, as I don't have the manual) in part of the legalese:
"You are allowed to use this on one computer...you are allowed to make one copy of the game CDs for backup purposes..."
It states that I am allowed to make a backup. I don't think anyone could argue that it's not within "Fair Use" to make a copy of that CD -- they explicitly *state* that it's allowed. This isn't something that needs to be tested in court -- it's right there.
Now, admittedly I haven't *tried* to copy it yet, but my suspicion, based on previous experience with trying to backup CRPGs, is that there's some form of copy protection on the CD, to prevent any copy that I would make from being recognized by the game as a "proper" CD.
Therefore, by adding the copy protection to the CD, they effectively prevent me from exercising the right that they themselves granted me. This is a problem.
Never fear, however, for enterprising individuals have "fixed" the problem by making a "no-cd" or "cd-copy" patch, which when applied removes the CD checks, and/or allows my copy to work as a fully "proper" CD. Right? Wrong...using these constitutes a violation of the DMCA, and is thus illegal...
Does that stop people from using them to remove the CD checks from games they legally own, or allow them to have a working backup copy, so they can keep the originals in a safe place? Nope. They do it anyway. Does it allow people to make unauthorized, illegal copies of the game? Yes it does.
Now, this "Games X Copy" software appears to do something roughly similar -- to allow you to make a working backup copy (although in a different way, instead of modifying the game's files, it modifies the way the CD is read and burned...but the function is similar). Does it allow for the (completely legal, granted) backup of legally purchased games? Yep. Does it allow unauthorized, illegal copies? Most likely it does.
The same arguments can be made in meatspace about a common tool, such as a crowbar. The crowbar can be used for the completely legal opening of crates, boxes, doors, etc... It can also be used to illegally gain entrance to a building or storage container. Does this make the crowbar inherantly illegal? No it doesn't. The crowbar's intended purpose is not to do illegal things, but legal ones. This is why you could walk down to your local hardware store and buy one right now. Owning a crowbar does not make one a felon, nor does it cause people to break into other people's stuff.
In copyright terms, I believe this is generally referred to as "substantial, non-infringing use", or something similar.
I'd argue that a commercially marketed (or even freely available - commercial intent has no real bearing here) piece of software, with the specified intent of creating legal, authorized backup copies of games (or other software) would fall into the same category as the afore-mentioned crowbar. Sure, it can be used for good or ill, but it's intended purpose was not to infringe, regardless of the other ways it could be used.
Unfortunately, in our (US) current legal environment, it's unlikely the courts would see it that way, even in light of the explicit backup provision.
Additionally, it's apparent that the corporate types don't really understand the "pirates" -- the "pirates" are going to
No matter how much 321 Studios claims that parents with the most honorable intentions are its target market, it's easy to see where it would be the perfect item for unscrupulous gamers to copy software to give to or trade with their friends. It goes against everything the industry has been fighting against."
No matter how much Smith & Wesson claims that parents with the most honorable intentions are its target market, it's easy to see where it would be the perfect item for unscrupulous gangsters to rob people or kill with their friends. It goes against everything the NRA has been fighting against."
- You're not paranoid, they really are after you.
Ick...should have previewed. Sorry for the ill-closed italics.
No matter how much Louisville Slugger claims that athletes with the most honorable intentions are its target market, it's easy to see where it would be the perfect item for unscrupulous individuals to hit people or break car windows. It goes against everything the industry has been fighting against.
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
The funny part about this is, buying a game is a much worse deal then pirating one. Ok, say I want to buy Unreal Tournament 2004. I have to wait for it to come out, go to the store, hope they have a copy, bring it home, install it, put in a serial number, hope the serial is right, then play. Any time I want to play after that, I have to make sure the CD is in the drive, and if I lose the original I am fuxored. Plus if the game sucks, I've lost $50
Now say I pirate the game, I have no waiting in line, no CD to worry about, if I lose the thing I can always re-burn it, I can make unlimited backups of it, and I don't have to worry about a serial most of the time. If the game sucks, I just lost 50 cents.
Why is it harder for the buyer than the pirate to play a game? Copy protection only stops the lowest common denominator of people who are too brainless to find a crack. Meanwhile consumers who support these game companies get punished by the silly copy protection schemes.
I purchased a copy of Unreal Tournament 2003 on clearance from Target. The thing was, it lacked a valid registration code. It must have fallen out of the box. After a few minutes googling around, a CD keygen that worked was found and I was off.
Except that I wasn't. The server wouldn't accept the key for multiplayer. After hours of searching, no key, keygen, or crack online could be found that would allow my machine to communicate with Epic's servers. I was very effectively locked out.
I'm not saying this because I'm bitter: $5 for the single player experience was definitely worth it. I'm saying this because server-side authentication is a far better method of handling copy protection than safedisk. While companies invest large sums of money into having a crack arrive two weeks after a release instead of just one, server-side authentication is generally never broken.
Standard media can be copied. Accounts cannot.
The ______ Agenda
I am all for a product that will help me backup my games. I have a couple that I can't replace if I wanted to(they're close to 6 years old and unavailable anymore). Regardless, those who will use this or any other product for pirating games will find another way if this one is not made available. You have to figure that if they really want to steal it, they'll find a way.
At least the game publishers don't have to worry about Games X Copy actually selling. Most will just pirate it.
As someone earlier posted, there are already a plethora of commercial game-copying programs available out there.
I for one use 'Game Drive' from FarStone, very handy for playing games on my laptop w/o having to cart around a pile of CDs.
So tell me again, why is this news?
Seems like Slashdot just put up a bunch of free press for 321 Studios is all.
While I support the games industry.. because without the money.. there wouldn't be one. I hate the fact I need to have a SLOW CD in a drive waiting for a machine to recognize it and boot up the game. I recently broke my Empires CD while on vacation. I ended spending fully 50% of the cost of the game to replace it because I had to send to the United States from Canada. This sucks. On top of that, due to moves and my lack of diligence I've lost two games either because of jewel cases going missing or one of the CDs because I only use one to play. Industry does not make it easy to retrieve my CD key electronically (except a few) when I register.
When I register.. I fully expect them to back me up.. not charge me the cost of another game or replacement. When an industry fully expects users to take the brunt of their inability to inovate.. I hate it. But it is the state of affairs so I have to live with it.
I am frustrated.. but it's what I choose to have fun with.
(1st sig) If this were a snappy sig, you'd be reading it right now. (2nd sig) I'm a karma whore. >Insert FUD here
I'll support the industry in their efforts against this copying software, as long as they start using scratch-resistant lacquers on their cd/dvd surfaces, and/or promise to replace my original purchase disks for postage costs when they become so scratched they don't work anymore.
:(
As long as they are going to assume I'm a pirate, and I *have* to stick the cd in the drive for my game to play, then I'd like them to cover the replacement of legitimately-purchased cd's damaged due to normal wear & tear. (If you have kids that use the computer, you know that those are usually the first ones to fail...)
I have at least 30 game cd's (out of maybe 300) that won't work anymore due to scratching, and the 'cd resurfacers' don't work as well as they claim. If I was smart, I guess I'd just pirate the games off Kazaa, but I don't want to do that.
-Styopa
1.4.7 (1005) is happily hosting the safedisc 2 protected BF1942 secret weapons of ww2. The previous version punked out. Alcohol is the best CD emulater I've used.
God forbid I give a friend a copy of my game. He might even install it on his computer! He might spend an hour downloading the patch that fixes the bugs! And then he might get so frustrated by the fact he still needs a CD key, a codeword from a random page in the manual, a parallel-port dongle, and a fingerprint verification in order to start the damn game!
Way back in the 90's, the makers of lots of commercial and business software did the same sort of thing. They had "NO COPYING ALLOWED" clauses in the license. They had anti-copy gimmicks in the files.
;-). And while you're doing that, why not just back up the whole disk? The DVD will hold it all.
The reaction of many businesses was "We back up our disks periodically. If a license doesn't permit copying, it will not be installed on any company computers. End of discussion." Lots of companies rigorously enforced this, on the advice of their lawyers.
After a while, the software makers caught on, and now most of them allow backup copies. Even the tech-challenged dummies in the US Congress caught on, and they passed a law that explicitly permits backup copies of software.
Most personal/home computers aren't backed up, for various reasons. The biggest is probably that historically backups have been done mostly to tapes, and a tape drive as big as your disk has either been not available at all, or if it's available, it costs more than the computer. But this is changing. Backup to DVD is now not only possible, but cheap, and a R/W DVD drive isn't that much more expensive than a read-only drive. Backup over the Net is becoming easier, and there are companies around who will do it for you cheaply. Or you can get a 200-MB USB disk drive for not too unreasonable a price.
So people are going to start backing up their own stuff. It's already happening with people who have gigabytes of digital photos that they don't want to lose. Many people have their personal financial records on their computer, and are backing those up (for when they get audited 8 or 10 years from now
A "no copying" clause in any commercial product is rapidly becoming a block to retail sales, just as it did in the business environment. I don't want to become a criminal just because I have the sense to back up my disk. One by one, every other computer owner on the planet is going to realize the same thing.
So I'm going to be looking for such clauses, and if I see them, I'll likely decide to wait until I can find something equivalent that I can back up.
Or maybe I'll just get a "pirate" copy. If I'm going to be labelled a criminal, I suppose I might as well be one.
They're shooting themselves in the foot. Nothing new there, I guess.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
For example... copy a disc
Using dd or standard inferfaces will only get you the standard data session, error corrected. You need to use this lower level tool to get at the more esoteric features, or to make a working copy if the system uses copy protection.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Seeing as how OSDN is happy to host various hacker tools on sourceforge, why don't some of these 'illegal' utilities open the source and host there? Clearly the people who run sourceforge have no morals. Heck, at least Games X Copy has some redeeming value.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
Yes 5 years ago this would of been nice with all the games that required to have the CD inserted to play but nowdays that's just not the case anymore. Most games nowdays install completely to your hard drive and then you just stuff it back in the box and put it on a bookshelf.
On the flipside it is also much harder to just copy a game and give it to a friend. With keys and internet play and phone home features those who share their keys risk getting their keys disabled.
Just check eDonkey or BitTorrent. And it doesn't matter whether you get a pirated game online or from a friend, it's still going to require a crack unless the method you used to rip the CD image supports the copy protection (e.g. CloneCD).
Rob
nah, to bite means to confuse the troll with an earnest post.
Repeal the DMCA!
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/117.html
Oh, look. Sorry, the right to make a backup of software is actually spelled out separately from fair use, which, I'll agree, is rather vague (though we do have case law to work on.)
In the end, all laws and infringements thereof are tested in court. Murder may be illegal, but you still go through a trial to determine if what happened fell under the existing laws -- what's your point? That you should fear to step out your door because something you say or do might later (in court) be determined to be illegal under some law you didn't understand?
Again, the right to make a backup of your software is explicitly given to you in our laws.
Regardless of the availability of lawyers who, like masters of other professions, should know best, you're still responsible for knowing the laws of the land yourself and taking responsibility or consequences (on either side) for the infringement of laws. Your lawyer can't replace you, and his knowledge can't replace yours. It's everyone's duty to know 'diddly.' (If, in fact, 'knowing diddly' is the opposite of 'not knowing diddly.')
But the software industry has said YOU don't own the software, the CD is just a delivery tool, not what you paid for. Actually I've sent in several CDs for replacement at only a fraction of the original cost and it worked out great.
This woman is a conniving bitch.
Why doesn't the gaming industry put it's money where it's mouth is: give absolutely free exchanges of good discs for damaged discs. At a maximum, a shipping fee would be paid. The burden of supporting the rest of the activity would be placed on the manufacturers. A 3rd party exchanger, authorized to provide replacement discs at anytime for at least a decade, would also be a workable solution.
You want to fight piracy? You don't want devices like this? Well make it so they aren't needed.
I think the real ethical question is whether or not you can use this software to make a copy of itself or make a copy of DVD X copy.
If your drive can't properly copy the errors or write them back to a cd, this whole argument is moot. Lots of families still have old computers lying around with old cd writers that can't copy things like Safe Disc 2.xx. Oh well, maybe they'll get a refund.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
...because I have three younger brothers who just got a new computer and want to play all of 'Shawnee's games. Now, do I want to hand them my original FF VII PC CDs? How about Diablo 2? Or perhaps one of the nice games I bought myself for Christmas? I don't want to play them... I'll just let them leave it on the stand, then on the floor, then in spilled soda, etc...
Maybe, just maybe, this isn't a bad idea in and of itself, and we just need an implementation with disc authentication (ie, disc is encrypted, DRM file on family PC can unlock it).
No, wait... it's just an evil company whose sole purpose is to make the impossible possible: now, every pirate in the world has a tool that can duplicate CDs. Oh, wait, they had CloneCD. And CDRWin/Fireburner. And approximately 1.2 Gazillion other cd burning tools....