Slashdot Mirror
Real Pain Dulled In Virtual Worlds
26199 writes "The BBC is reporting on a novel use of Virtual Reality: as a distraction for burn victims who suffer excruciating pain during daily dressing changes. What's most interesting is that it actually works. Another use of VR discussed is in the treatment of patients suffering Post Traumatic Stress Disorder; memories can be relived until they are accepted."
iirc, dentists used to do something similar. patients would wear headphones while procedures were being done. i think they would play some sort of white noise.
j
This could present some fascinating implications for medicine... Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is often one of the more difficult psychological disorders to treat, and is pretty much tops in the category of "anxiety-related" disorders. It would be a wonderful thing if it actually is useful in treatment.
-Vendal Thornheart
Call me a skeptic, but it seems like there's still a lot of room for potential damage from this. PTSD patients reliving memories until they're accepted? Doesn't that seem a little like forced traumatic recollection? I mean...yes, I'm sure it would have some desensitizing factor, but is that really a good thing? I don't necessarily know that I'd be jumping to sign up...
Help protect civil rights from abuse by the TSA - visit TSA News Blog.
http://www.tsanewsblog.com
So what happens when they come to rely on these techniques - people develop addictions to VR, just like they develop addictions to painkillers?
Sounds scary to me. Picture a person who can't live in the outside world because they have developed a psychological disorder based on the fact that the outside world only gives them pain.
Or the Slashdot reader who wants to experience VR so badly that he lights himself on fire...
that last one is definitely more likely, isn't it?
Is the dept. for this story some sort of attempt to stem the tide of "OMG VR pr0n 4 teh burn vict1mx0rz" jokes?
... this part of the article rubs me the wrong way: :-/
In collaboration with Cornell University in New York, Hoffman has built a virtual reality programme that is a simulation of the events of 9/11 designed to desensitise the patient to the events of that day.
It just seems too "Clockwork Orange" to me...
- "Nobody came out that night, not one was ever seen. But Old Man Stauf is waiting there, crazy sick and mean!"
This would be great for relieving all that "intense pain" that I experience during class/study time.
Karma: -2^0.5 . Mainly due to the imbibing of dihydrogen monoxide
Scientists today discovered that Virtual Realities can dull the excruciating pain of social rejection suffered by millions of geeks and nerds on a daily basis. It also helped them recover from the Post Traumatic Stress of Wedgies, Wet Willies and the dreaded Rear Admiral. Lead Scientist Nelson Muntz claims 9 out of 10 nerds enjoyed a Virtual Rear Admiral far more than the real version.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Clockwork Orange maybe?
Holy crap... tell me that name is just a coincidence.
if this means that in the distant future, I won't occupy the whole nursing staff for 15 minutes, while they try to give me a shot?
Yes, I still have this childish behavior, because I don't like needles, and I don't like going into shock, which is what happens every time; yet, I don't want to be a nuisance.
My arm is hurting right now, just thinking about this whole topic...
Just remember, as with all emergant technologies, there are ups and downs, depending at who's disposal the technology is used. This could be, and sounds like it is, helpful towards medical purposes, and as others have mentioned, sure it could have problems with making a person desensitized.
I say, give it time, take it slowly, and just hope for the best.
Speaking of downsides, I can't imagine what the government is thinking about doing with this sort of stuff :P
Codito, ergo sum.
Now, I wonder how interactive these VR sessions are. Could the burn patients injure themselves by getting too into it? How "real" are these memories for the PTS patients? Will they fell like observers, or participants?
Xbox reviews.. We think they're funny.
Why not just have them read slashdot at -1, that usually makes me forget about my painful, painful life....ow...existance
Here I was reading Tad Williams Otherland where one of the characters (Orlando Gardiner), is very ill and spends most of his time in a virtual world as an escape from reality.
Is this science following fiction ?
So does Anonymous Coward have good karma?
Finding a way to distract patients from pain is a far greater solution than medication. No side effects, no expensive or addictive substances to use (well, those who really like MMORPGs would disagree with my "addictive" statement, but...), and in general would be preferred over medication.
I mean, this daily dressing routine... it takes only a fraction of the day. Giving them morphine for it then ruins the majority of their day, as they spend it in a near-lifeless stupor. And without anything, those few minutes of the day would no doubt be torturous...
-Vendal Thornheart
..how is this any different from when you were a child, your mother distracting you from injuries with a lollie/toy? I know it used to work on me, and it sure works on my girls. It seems a bit of a reach to claim this is anything new.
I am fearing that the sue-happy United States will take this too far someday. "Yes. I am suing the following landmarks: Colorado River, Niagra Falls, Victoria Falls, and the Atlantic Ocean shore located 2 miles south of Atlantic City for knowing full well the use of white noise generated at these locations were addiciting but still distributing these addicting items to minors, the handicapped, and the elderly"
Ok troll.
I can tell you I just got out of the hospital after having a tension pnuemothorax (life threatening)and I can tell you that morphine is about as useless as a nun with two tits. Might as well just smoke some 7up (the *good* addicts will know what I mean).
Morphine is useless. It does nothing but make you want better drugs. The pain is still there. A good hit of some BC Bud would do much better. Plus, I can't walk straight after morphine.
When my mouth was aching like hell after a trip to the awful dentist (orthodontist), playing iD's finest kept my mind off the pain very effectively. No time to whimper when you're fragging your friends
"It's called morphine."
Wow - that's quite a medical breakthrough you have made. I'm sure the global medical community would like to hear more about this as it seems this idea never occured to them to use painkillers before.
Okay, enough with the sarcasm. If you had paid closer attention while reading the article you would recall this:
"Dr Hunter Hoffman, research fellow at the Harborview Medical Center in Seattle, has tested his virtual worlds on victims of burns injuries who suffer excruciating pain during their daily dressing changes which conventional drug therapy fails to control."
That's gotta be a lot of pain.
RTFM; please, I beg you.
I had a HGNS while taking my JKL, so HYSA and he LPHN'ed me.
Yeah, ppl in VR don't notice anything, you can try it yourself. Next time you see someone imagining they are a lawnmower man, use a burning match to see if they notice ;]
You can't handle the truth.
"Pain requires conscious attention. Humans have a limited amount of this and it's hard to do two things at once," he said.
I truly relish the day they give this VR "distraction therapy" to women giving birth...
Wife: OH MY GOD, THE PAIN!
Husband: Keep pushing, love! Keep pushing!
Wife: I AM! I'm trying, but he won't come out! Enough of this natural childbirth shit, I WANT AN EPIDURAL... oooh... hey, look over there...
Anxious Husband: What? What is it, honey?
Wife: it's a polar bear!
Dr Hoffman believes pain contains a significant psychological element which is why distracting thoughts by virtual reality lends itself so well to pain control.
"Pain requires conscious attention..."
I've bought into this idea ever since the day I was curious and watched a mosquito land on my shoulder, get into its stance and pierce my skin. I was really shocked at how much it hurt in that one instance.
RTFM; please, I beg you.
Here
even the screencaps look the same as in the story I remember, and they appear to have the look of 10 year old renderings.
FisterBelvedere -- Putting a whole new meaning to "streaks on the china" since 1996.
Numbing the pain of not having a girlfriend. I've been doing this myself for years.
I've read that same thing happens with porn too... no need to make a whole VR world for pain relivers, just give them a slideshow full of porn :P
;)
I also heard that looking at porn uses much more energy than you would surfing the web. Can anyone verify this? (*sounds of millions of slashdotters putting on those calorie loss gadget-thingy and loading up their favourite sites*) And I mean 'looking', not doing other things
Founder of Mirror Moon - Tsukihime Game Trans
The memory playback is a nice (but scary) idea, but I don't think it could ever be implemented correctly. If the plan is to play memories until a patient accepts what happened, a new memory program/video/experience would have to be generated for every patient.
A shooting victim would need a different experience than a burning building survivor, who would need a different experience than the train wreck survivor that comes in the next day. Since the situations would have to be fairly specific for each individual case, this would be nearly impossible to implement.
Also, if each different video/experience is produced, why not play it on a television? Even a big screen, if you want. I know the goal of the VR is to immerse the subject in the virtual world, but I don't know that it would be that much more effective than good old fashioned photos, videos, and psychiatry.
While VR pain relief may work to some degree initially, once the novelty wears off, or on an off-day when you just can't get interested in its "game", you'll probably find yourself screaming with pain.
Should I ever find myself in such an unfortunate situation, may God have mercy on me and set me up with an MD who will prescribe adequate opioid pain relievers. Currently that is the only thing that works, period.
Too often these days MDs are paranoid about prescribing opioid pain killers, what with the DEA breathing down their necks. See The DEA's Disastrous War Against Pain-Treating Drugs for example. It is customary to encourage the patient to grin and bear it or to seek pain relief through alternative therapies like meditation etc.
I myself have had minor surgery were they'll give you plenty of local anesthetic during the actual procedure; then they send you home with instructions to take tylenol. When the anesthetic wears off, the pain kicks in. It is only by whining and complaining that they'll prescribe an opioid painkiller, and unless you go to the ER (and sometimes even if you do) you'll be in pain for hours more until all the paperwork and procedures are done to get the prescription filled.
Chronic pain patients are in a real bind these days. They cruelty towards them by denying them long-term opioid pain relief is unspeakable.
Taken from http://www.snpp.com/guides/rear.admiral.html
OK, so everyone was asking what the hell a rear admiral was. It was
first mentioned in 1F04, last year's hallowe'en special.
> Bart: Milhouse...Milhouse, wake up, quick! Look out the window.
>Milhouse: No way, Bart. If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies,
> wet willies, or even the dreaded rear-admiral!
>-- Covering his ass, so to speak, "Treehouse of Horror IV"
Bill Oakley, who _wrote_ that part of the script with Josh Weinstein,
emailed me the definitive answer as to what a rear admiral is.
>Regarding "Rear Admiral," I think the answer is probably as
>disappointing as you feared it might be: it doesn't exist. Here is
>the actual first draft script excerpt from the Halloween show:
>
> BART
>Milhouse. Milhouse, wake up. Quick, look out the window.
> MILHOUSE
>No way, Bart. If I lean over and put my face against the window,
>you're gonna smash it, or maybe pinch my butt real hard.
>
>This was the first draft. In re-writing it, the writers wanted to go
>for something a little funnier, something that would sound like it was
>from the family of "flying wedgie," "purple nurple," etc. Someone, I
>do not remember who, said "Rear Admiral." It sounds real, having the
>word "rear" in it, but it was manufactured to sound real. As far as we
>know, it doesn't really exist.
One of my friends is a practitioner of Christian Science. If I understand what he tells me, Christian Science teachs that we experience the world because we choose to give it all a realty. In other words, it's all in your head. Most would agree there is some figuratively truth to this, but Christian Science takes it literally and uses the idea as the central component of their system of health and well being by wrapping this metaphysical layer around the bible. I wonder how he would react to the article. On the one hand, there is validation in the fact that we can channel positive perception into better health and healing. On the other hand, Christ and Christianity is completely unnecessary as implemented by the doctors featured in the article. I've tried to point out you don't need the biblical stuff in numberous conversations, but now there is something concrete I can show him.
Stay sentient. Don't drink bad milk.
It just happened I wrote yesterday about the usages of VR to treat fears. A company named Virtually Better, based in Georgia, creates virtual environments mixing video images and computer-generated ones to help people deal with their fears and anxieties. In this article, the New York Times (free registration) writes this costs only 10 percent more than conventional therapy. The newspaper adds that therapists using this system claim a success rate exceeding 90 percent. Virtually Better "has created scenes of a glass elevator and a bridge to address fear of height, an airplane cabin for those who fear flying and a thunderstorm to diminish fear of bad weather." Other environments address the treatment of substance addiction or of post-traumatic stress. A (Virtual) Therapist's Dream contains selected excerpts. It also includes images on the virtual airplane environment.
Lucid Dreams would be better than VR, and more realistic.
These are dreams where you are aware that you are dreaming, so one of the things you can do with them is this 'therapy' mentioned in this story. Even Dr Laberge mentioned a similar therapy.
See www.ld4all.com for further information.
If only it'd work for PMS too . . .
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
My mother never beliefd me when I said that playing Quake, took me mind of the illness. When you can play video games, youre healthy enough for school, she always replied. Seems like I was right all along.
"It is not because no one sees the truth that it becomes a mistake" (Mahatma Gandhi)
Oh yes, reliving a traumatic experience is one great way to cure people.
The approach is quite controversial in psychology. There is enough indication that it will only dull instead of cure, and that in some cases it will increase the trauma.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
If this treatment can truly help deal with survivor guilt, then it is a very useful therapy.
Harpo Tunnel Syndrome--my wrist feels funny.
It's called Everquest.......
They just gave you aspirin, making you believe that it was morphin.
Too bad the placebo effect is not working of you.
More seriously, though, it is possible that, for some reasons, it wasn't efficient on you. It also depends on the way it was administered (oral, muscular, ...)
But I can guarantee you that morphine has a huge effect on pain relief. It even has *such* a huge effect that at some point, you will forget to breathe.
Disclaimer : if you think I am a troll, don't try it at home...
Regards,
jdif
Let's overcome our weakness.
We found nuclear weapons in Iraq.
We found nuclear weapons in Iraq.
We found nuclear weapons in Iraq.
Re the forgot to breathe part... I guess you missed the good addict part... ;-) But thanks for the link.
Anyway... administered via injection in the arm (vien or artery? not a doc here)
I don't have PTSD, and I probably can't imagine how bad PTSD is.
I do however have some painful memories. The last thing I want to do is relive them. Whenever they come up I try and "change the station" mentally.
Is it really a good idea to get PTSD sufferers to relive the memories? I honestly would like to know.
Morphine is so far the most popular (because effective, easily administered, and with the fewest side-effects) pain-killer, for big pains (not only in the ass).
Maybe they just didn't give you enough, though. A patient should *always* ask for pain-killers when he needs some. We live in societies where it shouldn't be normal to suffer anymore, with all the stuff we have at our disposal...
Regards,
jdif
Let's overcome our weakness.
it's British for underwear. I just can't type this morning :/ that ruined that joke eh.
This is my Sig, this is my Gun. One is for Slashdot and one is for Fun.
Picture a person who can't live in the outside world because they have developed a psychological disorder based on the fact that the outside world only gives them pain.
I wonder if I have developed a psychological disorder based on the fact that the most PCs in outside world are ruled by MS Windows, which only gives me pain... sounds scary...
...what can I turn to get over the pain I still feel when I remember the tragic death of my virtual tiger, Rainbow?
Well, where do i sign up for that? I mean, it's not like it wasn't bad enough the first time. Let's analyze the psychoanalytic value of VR treatment for PTSD patients in a more C-esque manner:
//odds of this happening - 10000000000000 to 1
function dumbAssTherapyTechnique(you&) {
while ( !you.cured ) {
you.reliveWorstMomentInYourLife();
if (!you.feelbetter) {
dumbAssTherapyTechnique(you);
} else {
you.cured = true;
}
return I_THINK_IM_CURED;
}
The _only_ value in this VR idea is for treating chronic phobias, and even if at best, reducing the phobic reactions. PSTDs and phobias are are two completely different concepts and I HIGHLY doubt the value of this type of therapy for PSTD patients. If you'd like to test my theory, ask a rape victim if she'd like to relive the _experience_.
Burn victims are one thing (physical pain translating into mental pain), but most (not all) PTSD are opposite in nature to burn victims. It's a nice idea and if it works for burn victims, great. But please, think just a minute before applying 1 minor progressive technique to other domains in psychology.
"We can never see past the choices we don't understand." -The Matrix Reloaded - The Oracle
Wake up bro, science always follows fiction. Think of an endeavour or a discovery and you'll be able to find someone who fantasised about it at sometime.
Leonardo Da Vinci, HG Wells, Jules Verne, George Orwell... need I go on? Helicopters, men on the moon, deep sea exploration, dystopian societies and whatever else you care to mention have all been "predicted" by dreamers way before they became reality.
Tad Williams (brilliant author though he is) would hardly be the first writer to find part of his fiction had become fact.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
"in the treatment of patients suffering Post Traumatic Stress Disorder; memories can be relived until they are accepted."
So... a guy having been tortured should be VR-tortured until he accepts it? Or someone having killed a bunch of kids in a war should relive that experience in VR until he accepts it? Color me sceptic, but I'm not sure thats a great idea.
SIG: TAKE OFF EVERY 'CAPTAIN'!!
I still can't get over them taking goatse off of the domain registry. Do you think they have a program that will allow me to relive the trauma?
Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
... if you have a wife, that is.
They don't see a damn thing within 10 inches of their face and hardly hear anything when they're pushing. On top of that, epidural will not be administered at the last stage because it takes some time to kick in. No fucking polar bear dancing naked will distract a woman from feeling "the bowling ball" going through her cervix and vagina and tearing it apart.
What a wonderful link/s!
I was sexually abused repetdedly by my family dentist when I was six (he used a gas hose placed behind my head, but near my face, I can still hear the hissing sound...), I'm now 49, and have been dealing with the repercussions of those terrifying encounters for decades without actually realizing it (since my parents wouldn't believe that he was using gas on me, and I didn't know how to say I was being abused).
Since I started working with a good therapist my life has just blossomed!
But those fantasy's since I started to deal with this stuff... wow... and weird, to be sure!
Glad to know I can get through it all, and move on.
And that I'm not a nutter.
Anyhow... thanks for the links, lots of neat stuffff here.
Thanks a lot!
Is not usually life-threatening (you'll certainly wish you were dead while you're going through it, but you don't usually die).
Much more dangerous are the withdrawl syndromes associated with Alcohol and Benzos (diazepam, lorazepam, alprazolam... aka Valium, Ativan, and Xanax, respectively). Those folks have a much harder go of it than heroin and painkiller addicts, at least physiologically speaking... they get autonomic hyperactivity, refractory seizures, hallucinations... there's a very significant mortality if not medically treated.
Stimulants tend not to have such a severe withdrawl syndrome, at least in a life-threatening sense. I'm referring to cocaine, methamphetamine... there's a crash when you come down, and they can deplete your body's stores of catecholamines and other neurotransmitters, leading to periods of agitation, depression, insomnia, etc, but that's typically after longer term use.
A psychological addiction to VR should be a very minor issue compared to any of the above.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
as far as I'm concerned... if a VR simulation takes a patient's mind off their pain, God bless 'em.
Listen... I've spent my share of time in burn units, where the morphine flows like a mighty river; VR is far preferable to using drugs, with all their attendent side-effects. Also, contrary to popular wisdom, addiction isn't usually a problem... only a very very small percentage of burn unit denizens ever develop an addiction to their narcotics after they recover, and there's large studies and good research to back that up... anyone who tells you that narcotic use for severe pain makes normal people into addicts is about 20 years out of date.
Honestly, we already use a pharmacological variant of VR in pediatric burn units... it's called Ketamine (or "Special K" to all you ravers out there stupid enough to use it). Ketamine creates a dissociative anesthesia, and is sometimes used in kids who are having their dressings changed.... it's not really recommended in adults because it can produce extremely vivid hallucinations... most kids I've used it on report nothing, or just say "I had a bad dream."... gotta love kids. I personally think the difference in experience between pedi & adult has to do with the amount of bad things adults carry around in their subconscious... there's something to be said for innocence.
Whether it's distraction (I use that on kids all the time), the gate theory of pain, or whatever. If it works, I say use it... it's certainly preferable than risking the side-effects of mega-doses of narcotics.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
Some of us would love to spend their days on morphine. Can I trade my VR time for morphine? Or hey, VR on morphine could be cool too...
Have you heard about NLP (neurolinguistic programming)? NLP is a therapy method which is based on reliving a traumatic period - and yes, this is used on PSTD patients, such as refugees from war ravaged countries (see Dr. Richard Bolstad's work), or rape victims. The basic idea of NLP is that the patient replays the traumatic event inside his/her head multiple times, while varying the playback speed, colours, pitch of the sound et cetera. The goal is to replay the event in such a way that it is so ridiculous, that you cannot help laughing at it, thereby creating a more positive (or less negative) feeling towards the traumatic event.
So:
- NLP has been shown to work very well, and
- NLP is very similar to the VR technique in that you relearn your response to a traumatic event with more positive feelings.
By the way - where did you learn to program? You should get your money back...
you should see it from my perspective... I often get patients who have chronic pain, and show up in my ER looking for medication refills.
I often can't help them, or at least, not the way they want... some of these people are prescribed monster doses of Oxycontin, MS-contin, Methadone, you name it. I treat acute pain in the ER, but I can't refill someone's 90-count bottle of 80mg Oxycontin tablets; it's inappropriate practice. I'm not trained or credentialed in chronic pain management, I've never seen the patient before, will probably never see them again, and those kind of medications at that kind of dose require follow-up (something I'm not set up to do), adjustments, documentation, etc... and I don't need to get "interviewed" by the DEA any more than the next doc. Ironically, some time ago the feds hauled away a physician in an area where I was practicing... then all his patients couldn't get their medications any more, and started coming to the ER looking for refills. Unfortunately, I'm ill-equipped to fill that void.
Chronic pain is a real problem, not only for the docs who run the pain clinics and take care of these folks (they're well-advised to keep impeccable records), but for guys like me who get caught in the middle.
And dont even get me started with the addicts and abusers who doctor shop... using the exact same stories as the chronic pain folks in an effort to get their party supplies for the weekend... those gomers are the bane of my existence.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
This is old news! Every /.er knows that the Internet takes the mind away from the pain of real-world existence.
Resume therapy!
I've tried to point out you don't need the biblical stuff in numberous conversations, but now there is something concrete I can show him.
Yeah, that'll work. Who was it who said you can't reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themselves into? If your friend's faith is strong enough, he'll maintain his beliefs to his (possibly early) grave, regardless of any evidence to the contrary. That's how it works.
Freedom: "I won't!"
Yes! I wonder why I, as a patient, more and more often have to ask for pain relief... When I had me most recent coloscopy, the discussion went like this:
Nurse to me: Do you want pain relief beforehand?
Me: Yes, definitely.
The doctor (almost to himself): You should avoid taking pain relief. [pregnant pause]
The doctor (to the nurse): Ok, give him 0.5 cc.
Five minutes later, I got some additional pain relief, but even then it wasn't enough...
Isn't it strange that a patient has to fight for, or beg for pain relief? As I understand, if you don't use pain relief, then moderate to high pain can create paths that makes it much easier for you to feel the pain again in the future.
Of course, too much pain relief can be bad too - I can't tell you how embarassed I was after they shot me up with a big load of morphine, and I started insulting everybody to the left and to the right of me. A sailor would have blushed...
But I also suspect that the main reason that we see physical and emotional pain as being different is that we see emotional pain as uniquely human, something that separates us from "the animals".
I can't speak for anyone else, but I always saw it as the difference between a point source (physical pain) and lack thereof (emotional pain). I agree some people may take the human/animal point of view, but I wouldn't go so far as saying that physical and emotional pain are "the same". To put it in /. terms, Windows and Linux are both "produced" by the same hardware, and have the same general purpose--but I don't think anyone would claim they're the same thing!
As far as souls go, I'm reserving judgement for now--ask me again when you've got a human backup system working. ;)
I was part of the relief effort after the towers were struck.
Every time I start listening to some chowder-head talking about how 9/11 was not such a big deal, I remember sitting there in a parking lot with my surgical team, waiting/hoping there'd be some survivors pulled from the rubble that we could take care of...
I'm not a PTSD candidate by any means, but 9/11 still bothers me, and I frankly hope it always will. When you witness the gruesome death of thousands of people and at some point in time it all becomes OK, or you just forget about it, or it doesn't bother you at all on some level... pain is part of being human; some things you should remember.
That said, I certainly hope nobody makes a VR simulation of that time... I certainly have no desire to relive an experience like that in vivid detail.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
you're right, I'm not enough of a moron to get anyone pregnant.
:)
That, and I'm gay
So you're lying there, blissfully unaware of having your mouth gouged out with sharp pointy things, and then your fantasy world suddenly becomes a BSOD. That's not going to be a pleasant experience.
Although the original poster was making a weak joke, he's not far from the mark.
When our first kid was born, we did the whole childbirth class thing, followed all the advice, etc. One of the things we did which seemed really corny at the time was to take along some object to focus on during contractions to distract from the pain.
It seemed pretty silly at the time, so the second time around, we didn't bother with the 'focus item'. The first time, my wife went through with only a bit of local at the very end; the second time she needed an epidural. So as goofy as it seemed, she says that it did work...
This "repeat until accepted" method sounds a lot to me like the Dianetics psuedo-science Hubbard invented before founding Scientology. Which makes me scared that it either won't work in the long term and will just damage the person's psyche, or will work and will give Scientologists fuel to claim the legitimacy of their "faith".
See what I mean at Operation Clam Bake
where'd my typewriter go?
Not strange, given today's litigious society.
Creating more VR worlds for those that aren't helped by the action games would be a logicla next step.
Didn't any of you watch Clockwork Orange? This could be used for some very bad stuff.
Photons have mass!!?? I didn't even know they were Catholic...
It works because it is under the PATIENT'S control. They can rerun the images, repeatedly stopping at a spot that makes them uncomfortable until they are comfortable there, then run a bit farther the next time. Similar to the "fear of flying" seminars that start with looking at pictures of planes. You help them push into an uncomfortable zone until they learn that fear won't kill, it's just unpleasant, and the memories no longer trigger excessively strong emotions.
There is a portion of your brain called the amygdala that triggers fear way under the level of consciousness. It has a hair-trigger in persons with phobias and PTSD. It can be retrained to stop sounding the alarm so quickly, which is what various "exposure" therapies and hypnosis do.
The term "desensitized" has a specific meaning in psychiatry and psychology: it does not mean "callous" or "indifferent". It means that a certain stimulus no longer creates as strong an emotional reaction as it once did. And for PTSD and phobias, those emotions are so strong and incapacitating (they replay at the original intensity or even higher, and with the added fear of another attack or flashback) that the patient is unable to come to terms with them until they are desensitized.
"Repeat memories until they are accepted"?
sure, this will be good for treating PTSD patients I guess...but what other possibilities might this have? living memories until they are accepted...as truth? this creates some very frightening possiblities. as much as I hate referencing it, it sounds like the Matrix.
Why mess up peoples lives with this therapeutic
crap when there are perfectly good drugs available
that cure the problem?
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
The first answer that we have to give- HAVE to, because we don't know them, either, is, "You don't."
Plain and simple, unless they are doing EVERYthing else- the physical therapy, the exercise, the effort, the tests for concurrent/comorbid conditions, they shouldn't be given pain meds. It's a tough rule but a vital one, because it pushes them into a relationship with the doc, so that they can get checked out, make sure that they aren't just doc shopping.
And we tell them that if the doc gives them a scrip on their first visit, something's wrong. We have to tell them the order of things that will be tried, and explain that some of them might help. It's hard because the perception in this country is that there's a pill for every problem, and with pain meds, that's just not always the case. When they get to the pain med stage, and find themselves with side effects, some of them get angry, because they wanted it to just be all better, why would these meds be held back unless they really fixed everything?
But that's not how it works. So we end up with people getting depressed, and even when we explain all this up front, it still goes that way for some people. For others, the pain meds work, and we wish that they could actually get them when they needed them to start with, without all the secret personality testing.
This looks like it's a great idea. One thing that i have to say for biofeedback and other therapies- they work on the biofeedback level, but they also work because they are something different. they can distract the person from their pain long enough for them to focus elsewhere, and if you're going to learn to live with chronic pain, that's a very important skill.
I think this is a great idea. I know that they did a study a long time ago showing that people who exercised to music or some other distraction felt less workout pain than people who focused solely on their workout. I use that study all the time.
I'll be very hapy when this makes it to take-home stage, and i'll be interested in seeing if it can be combined with workout equipment, for example, for some of the physical therapy that some of my fellow patients have to go through. When they haven't moved much for awhile, i get to see people cry when they try to start up again. And it's not because they're wimps, it's that extra 300-400% of pain chemicals along with the muscle atrophy.
sol
"I'd say 'Have a good time,' but arson is still illegal.
"Another use of VR discussed is in the treatment of patients suffering Post Traumatic Stress Disorder; memories can be relived until they are accepted." same stuff. I know from the technical side. not a member.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein
I have very sensitive and dry skin and dark brown hair. I've been dying by hair
to the lightest possible blonde for years and every time I get it done I *need*
to have access to a computer immediately or the pain becomes overwhelming.
Keep me in a chair and in about 20 minutes I'm crying my eyes out and
shaking. Give my my laptop and within seconds the pain subsides, completely
if I start an short game (like GTA2)...
Am I the only one who read that as "Real pain dubbed in Virtual Worlds??
School sucks.
:).
I'll play a game instead.
Work sucks.
UT2K4 is nice.
Girls are EViL...
(X-Com) UFO is a nice distraction.
Etc, etc, etc. Gamers have known the escapist and therapeutic benefits of games for years
-Tom
It needs more serious study, but I don't think online worlds are the cure for pain.
Have you ever tried playing an mmorpg while you've got a toothache? Or a cold? I have and it was a miserable experience. Action games aren't too bad but the pain/discomfort really is too overwhelming for a gaming experience to help. At least that's my experience.
The old "VR" is far better; its called hypnosis.
I can see a hypnotist for $60 and have them put me anywhere. The VR gear costs more, sucks, and I'm sure insurance would charge more than the hardware cost for its use. (in USA it would...)
It works so well they can operate on you at the same time. Try that with VR googles!
There's also the greasy willie -- Same as the wet willie, but more disgusting -- use butter instead of spit.
I think a case can be made that First Person Shooters are VR. And from the articles descriptions of the VR they use with patients, I'd say PFSs are a hell of a lot more sophisticated than what their using on patients. So what are the effects on the human mind of going through 4 hours of virtual war a few nights a week? I think it's only a matter of time before we start seeing gamers come down with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I should know I game. Have you had trouble sleeping after a long night of gaming? Can't close your eyes with out images of fire fights coming to your mind?
Doesn't sound like a healthy mind to me.
All things in moderation.
nobody allowed you to open your mouse and say hi bitch.
Go back to sucking my dick!
My motives are not as noble as you percieve. All I want to do is make him sqirm in embarassment to points he can't address. :-P We have a well established history of playing oneupmanship. His religious practice has afforded me endless amusement and it will continue to do so as he's as stubborn as you imagine. I'm a baaad man!
Stay sentient. Don't drink bad milk.
"SnowWorld, for instance, takes users on an absorbing virtual journey through glaciers and ice caves whilst having to defend themselves from attack by polar bears and penguins."
:)
On the other hand, this sounds like Darl's fantasy world
If you had engaged a few brain cells, instead of just reading the article (WHICH DOES NOT MENTION MORPHINE) and taking it as gospel, you would have *possibly* come to a few conclusions:
We already have drugs that are capable of eliminating pain while your (heart, just as a trivial example) is transplanted.
Now, obviously, someone has chosen *NOT* to use these readily available medicines on burn patients.
So, we have already shown that not all appropriate medicines are being use.
So what the fark makes you think/claim that morphine is included in "conventional drug therapy"?
Does it say so it that poor excuse of an article?
No, it does not.
Give thanks to Slick (War on Drugs) Willie and Janet (Crispy Branch Davidians) Reno on the way out.
Bah.
Way back in the late 60's a local amusment park had an attaraction called the "Electric Cube". It was a small building with a room inside that featured a very loud sound system playing things like Cream's "White Room" and a tune called "Horse". It also had a brilliant white strobe light and syncronized colored strobes. There was a very pronounced old time movie slow motion effect, and designes like footprints looked like they were being made in subjective real-time going up the wall. My friends and I discovered that the perception of pain didn't realy work in the Electric Cube. We would go in there and have good natured rumbles, a kick in the crotch didn't mean much (until you got outside, anyway). There was another attraction to the place, the hippy guy who took your money often gave back an amount of change that was greater than the amount you gave him. Stoned, random act of kindness, both? We really liked that place!
... it has to do with attention, specifically divided and focused attention. I've replicated some VR experimental work using VR vs. other techniques for redirecting attention. The techniques work according to how deeply the person can immerse themselves into the alternate stimulus context. Hypnosis is extremely good, but some people are better at hypnosis than others. Manipulating a physical object is exactly as effective as manipulating an object in VR (I got the same results with $20 worth of wooden blocks that someone else got with an SGI Indigio and complete submersion VR tank, worth $40K).
The one technique I haven't got to try yet is implicit learning under anesthesia, which seems to work like hypnotic suggestion, but doesn't rely on the person's own ability; it works the same for everyone.
Whenever you see any study claiming "VR does so and so" question why it took VR to do so, and what else might also work. There's nothing magical about VR that almost certainly can't be done as well for cheaper.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
Our baby boy was 9 lb 14 oz at birth, and he has a big head. So there's no way in hell a polar bear (or breathing, or music) would change anything. :0)
I know at least one resident of Seattle who wouldn't find attacks by virtual penguins to be relaxing! ;)
Yes that is a lot of pain. I nine days in the UVa burn unit, admitted with 30% full thickness burns. You can ask "how bad is it on a scale of 1 to 10?" Well, I've injured myself pretty good over the years in various ways, mostly cuts & bruises from home remodeling, and have my share of minor scars. The scale expands when you have serious burns, and the typical 1 to 10 covers the span of, say, 1 to 2 when compared to burns. And that's if you consider the 1-10 scale logarithmic to begin with! Dressing changes and wound cleaning (aka pulling off your skin each day) are, without a doubt, the worst. Good opiates help during those times, and minor pain relievers (codene (sp), etc.) do an okay job the rest of the time, but distraction is critical. If you have nothing to do, you focus on the pain. Have you noticed that hospital TVs only ever seem to show soap operas and golf? Torture when your well, downright evil when you're a captive audience.
Luckily, the my burn extent & thickness was overestimated. That and I'm an ornery b@astard and refuse to allow such things to slow me down. It still took two months for me to return to work. After six years there is no readily visible scarring.
Here's my question: does this work to combat the absolutely infernal itching that occurs when the hair begins growing back? I could handle the cleaning and dressing with just a few ibuprofin in under two weeks, but - damnit - I couldn't take enough benedryl to keep my from wanting to scratch!
Oh, and the positive (for me) side effect was that I don't have to listen to any labor pain whining from my wife. I'm willing to concede the pains of childbirth, but even my wife and I called a truce on who has experienced the worst pain. I don't wish either on any sane person.
FWIW, when I hear news reports of very serious burn injuries it still makes me shiver. For those with 50-75%+ full thickness burns, I quitely hope that they don't make it through the first night. The suffering they will go through...no one should ever have to edure that.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
This research is being done at Harborview Medical Center, which
is run by the University of Washington Medical Center. Harborview is one of the best trauma centers in the United States, which makes it one of the best in the world When I was in a motorcycle accident that's where I went and even though they couldn't save my leg they did save my knee, which makes using a prosthetic much easier. Harborview isn't the body and fender shop you want to go there, they only send you there if you're seriously broken, but if you are seriously broken it's the best place to be. Even though it's a public hospital and ends up with the patients that no other hospital wants they still manage to do cutting edge research such as this or in the fields of rehabilitation and prosthetics.
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
Oh great, now it will be used by therapists to help people be open about being raped by hundreds of men with masks on.
When my father lost his legs to a land mine in Vietnam, morphine was the only thing that kept him from dying of shock. "Morphine is useless" indeed... you whine about a tension pnuemothorax? Try having your legs blown off in the service of your country. My father owes his life to morphine, yet you go so far as to tout marijuana as a better pain killer?
Who's the real troll...